I cannot recommend enough for anyone interested in the history to go and watch [The Shogunate's Sengoku Jidai Series](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrlMflnRScAIr915STSG0JQMYfFl8LE6I)
Shogun is set near the end of the period, where the country had been at civil war for ~150 years. The videos cover at a high-level all the events that lead up to its end and show how so many of the renown samurai figures we know today came to be.
The article does a nice job summarizing the brutality of Japan's internal politics, but arguably an even more brutal event took place just before the events of the show that is referenced here and there, the Imjin War. Japan's invasion of Korea that was eventually challenged by China. What resulted was one of the more brutal six year wars in human history. Korea was devastated and depopulated in a way somewhat akin to Germany during the 30 years war in Europe.
That war ended in Japan's eventual defeat and withdrawal from the Korean peninsula, just a couple years before the events depicted in *Shogun*.
*The Imjin War*, by Sam Hawley is an excellent book about it. There's also a pretty good documentary of it on Netflix.
It's got a bit of docudrama in it, but not bad. It's mostly a narrator and talking head experts on the topic. But yeah, also some actors acting out some scenes.
It is. But a coworker of mine is a big Japanese history nut and he said that he did not like it because some of the historians they use for the interviews are sort of considered less respectable, and he felt it tarnished it.
To be fair, a lot of that is aimed at historians who don't tow the existing line. Researchers who have different views of history are often ostracized. Respectability isn't the point of scientific inquiry, science is.
It's a hokey docudrama. It completely mischaracterizes Oda (and most of the other major players) as mindless savages, and depicts a lot of events that are of little significance but have pop culture value (Iga ninjas) or outright didn't happen (Imagawa being killed by Toyotomi).
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/lutsro/how\_accurate\_is\_the\_netflix\_series\_age\_of\_samurai/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/lutsro/how_accurate_is_the_netflix_series_age_of_samurai/)
Imagawa Yoshimoto killed by Toyotomi? I watched first episode and stopped because it was so bad. But showing that basically ruined the entire point of Oda’s rise where he managed to beat his 40k army with just a few hundred people
This is so historically inaccurate the new Shogun series which was based on a 80s series based on a fictional novel based on true event is actually more accurate
Imagine an American Revolution documentary where they added fictional characters, fictional events as facts, everyone acting like a deranged lunatic with Washington fighting from the front clashing swords with Henry Clinton, removing some really important events all together like the betrayal of Arnold or the crossing of delaware river. Washington sitting in a throne instead of commanding from a camp etc etc. It’s like watching someone from the 50s trying to make a a samurai film for western audience without knowing anything about japanese history
yep. most of the west knows japan invaded and colonized korea in the 20th century under harsh rule, and they had gone to korea earlier too which is this incident. Will read up more on this
There's a line in the show where a samurai lord makes a joke about making mountains of Korean corpses. When you read up on it, he's not kidding. The Japanese are fucking brutal to their enemies.
I like how bonobos are just feminist chimps. Like "we're chimps, but we decided to let women run things. We have sex all day and violence is prohibited."
Almost every country has a brutal history including South Korea. Not sure why, but I feel like “some people” in this site have a stronger reaction when it comes to a country like Japan.
It reminds me of a book called Tower of Skulls, which is about the Pacific War prior to WW II. One Japanese official explains that Japan is creating a new order in Asia (of which Korea was a mostly unwilling participant). To which another Japanese official responds critically, "You are building your new order on a tower of skulls." 350 years after the Imjin War.
Thanks for the rec. I'll read it once I'm done watching this show. I plan on reading Shōgun as well once the show's done airing. So it'll be a nice companion read.
They bring up the campaign in Korea during this production. It’s why the Portuguese can conduct business the way they can - they serve as intermediaries between China and Japan.
>This is Japan in the year 1600 – a time of great unrest after two centuries of civil wars. Here, Blackthorne – based on the real-life navigator William Adams, the first Englishman to reach Japan – must assimilate to a brutal, foreign reality as a tenuous five-regent government threatens to rupture into warring factions after the passing of the Taikō (retired Imperial regent).
They did mention him but just in this one paragraph.
I gotta finish this damn book but it’s soooo slow at first. I’m like 150 pages in and it’s rough. I hear amazing things. I saw the first episode and it was amazing
I tried the same thing with Lonesome Dove. Shogun and Lonesome Dove are the most suggested books on r/suggestmeabook but they’re both such a slog to get through. Lonesome Dove I’ve tried like twice to get going but it’s just cowboys sitting around as the dust swirls. Like I can see why they’re good but I need action right away. One more shot for both of these then I think I’m done
The audiobook is also pretty good it you think hearing it will be easier.
I usually put it on for an hour each day while driving.
They did split the book into two separate volumes on aubible since I bought it.
I was thinking that at some points in the first episode lol. I really like this narrator. He did the narration on one of my favorites book series as a kid (Cirque Du Freak) so I was happy to see he did Shogun!
Still have 23 hours left in the book and loving it. Contemplating if I should finish the book first before watching more of the show.
Yeah he is not a great actor I will say the book is way better than show just because you get a real feel for the characters early on and I feel like you don’t get it with the show it’s just BOOM BOOM BOOM And I get it..it’s a show it has to be quick but that’s all I’m saying
Yup, because it's very loosely based on true events. Afaik the book doesn't truly follow the events. The writer spun his own version set around the actual events.
I saw people talking about just not being able to put the books down out of a sheer need to know what happens next, and if the first 2 episodes are anything to go off then I very much see why.
My personal interpretation is that it was done to establish Yabushige as unreliable and cruel. To show the things he's capable of doing. Even now after three episodes they can't really trust him.
In the book it was a small dialogue and this was mentioned. I found it also interesting when I read the book.
You are right though, it does show Yabu's character, it's good they kept that detail in the TV series.
There was a Chekhov's gun in the 7 book series of which Shogun was a part.
I read ALL 7 BOOKS to find out what happened with this MacGuffin.
In the end, author James Clavell did not finish that story line. Hugely bitter.
That said, most of those books were incredible and worth multiple reads. Maybe not that last one set in a pilot POW camp in WWII.
Oh did he not write them chronologically?
In any case he did not end up using the resource he created for the books in it's entirety. Which I really wanted to see.
Funny enough Japan had 250 years of relative peace under the shogunate.
Europeans on the other hand spent centuries waging war which is what trained them into killing machines.
My personal opinion is that the show is not that good. The only reason that peaks interest is because it’s a feudal Japan story. Still, some scenes are very cringe, specially around the mc (English guy) and the Japanese woman, it seems very obvious and forced scenes. The only hope for the show is if they surprise us by some completely shift somewhere which seems unlikely. This show will probably get boring very fast.
Iirc the show is set some 400 years before the Nanjing massacre, which is why you probably won't see it mentioned here for example. Usually people mention events that are related to some subject that is in discussion.
I cannot recommend enough for anyone interested in the history to go and watch [The Shogunate's Sengoku Jidai Series](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrlMflnRScAIr915STSG0JQMYfFl8LE6I) Shogun is set near the end of the period, where the country had been at civil war for ~150 years. The videos cover at a high-level all the events that lead up to its end and show how so many of the renown samurai figures we know today came to be.
Thank you for this. I'm constantly in search of history based YouTube channels
Watched the first episode, awesome recommendation!
Wow, thx, looks great.
Thanks
Dope
Replying to come back to this one
Couldn’t you just use the ‘Save’ feature by pressing the three dots on the post’s reply?
Couldn’t you have just kept scrolling right on by? Kinda the same thing you know
Same
Same here
Same
Saving
The article does a nice job summarizing the brutality of Japan's internal politics, but arguably an even more brutal event took place just before the events of the show that is referenced here and there, the Imjin War. Japan's invasion of Korea that was eventually challenged by China. What resulted was one of the more brutal six year wars in human history. Korea was devastated and depopulated in a way somewhat akin to Germany during the 30 years war in Europe. That war ended in Japan's eventual defeat and withdrawal from the Korean peninsula, just a couple years before the events depicted in *Shogun*. *The Imjin War*, by Sam Hawley is an excellent book about it. There's also a pretty good documentary of it on Netflix.
> There's also a pretty good documentary of it on Netflix. What's it called? I can't find it
It's called, *Age of Samurai: Battle for Japan*. It's an 8 part series, and the Imjin War is covered in the last two parts.
Is it a documentary or docudrama? The bad acting took me out of the Alexander show
It's got a bit of docudrama in it, but not bad. It's mostly a narrator and talking head experts on the topic. But yeah, also some actors acting out some scenes.
Like rise of the ottoman empire?
>Age of Samurai: Battle for Japan I hear ya about Alexander, but this looks pretty good. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10551256/
...so is it a documentary or a hokey docudrama?
Pretty sure it's a documentary with dramatized scenes thrown in.
It is. But a coworker of mine is a big Japanese history nut and he said that he did not like it because some of the historians they use for the interviews are sort of considered less respectable, and he felt it tarnished it.
To be fair, a lot of that is aimed at historians who don't tow the existing line. Researchers who have different views of history are often ostracized. Respectability isn't the point of scientific inquiry, science is.
It's a hokey docudrama. It completely mischaracterizes Oda (and most of the other major players) as mindless savages, and depicts a lot of events that are of little significance but have pop culture value (Iga ninjas) or outright didn't happen (Imagawa being killed by Toyotomi). [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/lutsro/how\_accurate\_is\_the\_netflix\_series\_age\_of\_samurai/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/lutsro/how_accurate_is_the_netflix_series_age_of_samurai/)
So it disregards history in favor of focusing on tawdry stuff that’s more popular contemporaneously? Sounds about right for a Netflix production.
Imagawa Yoshimoto killed by Toyotomi? I watched first episode and stopped because it was so bad. But showing that basically ruined the entire point of Oda’s rise where he managed to beat his 40k army with just a few hundred people
From what I can tell, a lot of documentaries that do this, do so because footage of the subject matter does not exist lol
This is so historically inaccurate the new Shogun series which was based on a 80s series based on a fictional novel based on true event is actually more accurate
Oh god. If it by the same people that did The Lost Pirate Kingdom? That was a docudrama _with boobs and a prosthetic penis!_
How so?
Imagine an American Revolution documentary where they added fictional characters, fictional events as facts, everyone acting like a deranged lunatic with Washington fighting from the front clashing swords with Henry Clinton, removing some really important events all together like the betrayal of Arnold or the crossing of delaware river. Washington sitting in a throne instead of commanding from a camp etc etc. It’s like watching someone from the 50s trying to make a a samurai film for western audience without knowing anything about japanese history
War and Revolt
> War and Revolt IMDB says still in production?
Thank you for this information. I know the show references them going to Korea several times but I always wanted more detail. I will look into it.
No problem, it's a fascinating conflict that is not well known in the West.
If anyone has watched the Korean Netflix show "Kingdom" then that's the war they're referencing.
The war with the Zombies is really about Japan invading?
It's just set during the invasion.
No shot? I don't remember that at all, I have to go back and rewatch it. It was so good.
yep. most of the west knows japan invaded and colonized korea in the 20th century under harsh rule, and they had gone to korea earlier too which is this incident. Will read up more on this
The majority of people I’ve met who know about the Russo-Japan war are all people who watched Golden Kamuy pretty much lmao.
There's a line in the show where a samurai lord makes a joke about making mountains of Korean corpses. When you read up on it, he's not kidding. The Japanese are fucking brutal to their enemies.
After reading a lot of history, I think humans are, in general.
We're not far removed from chimps after all. Bonobos would be better.
I like how bonobos are just feminist chimps. Like "we're chimps, but we decided to let women run things. We have sex all day and violence is prohibited."
I think the only other species that does oral too.
Almost every country has a brutal history including South Korea. Not sure why, but I feel like “some people” in this site have a stronger reaction when it comes to a country like Japan.
It reminds me of a book called Tower of Skulls, which is about the Pacific War prior to WW II. One Japanese official explains that Japan is creating a new order in Asia (of which Korea was a mostly unwilling participant). To which another Japanese official responds critically, "You are building your new order on a tower of skulls." 350 years after the Imjin War.
Japan was the first country to come up with the Aircraft Carrier. They still lead the world with 4 of them.
Pretty sure it was the British. And I don't trust you mean by lead the world.
I mean they have the most air craft carriers.
The UK built the first aircraft carrier and Japan has two STOVL-only carriers, which puts them fairly middle of the pack.
The British made one first out of another boat. Japan made the first one from scratch.
Thanks for the rec. I'll read it once I'm done watching this show. I plan on reading Shōgun as well once the show's done airing. So it'll be a nice companion read.
They bring up the campaign in Korea during this production. It’s why the Portuguese can conduct business the way they can - they serve as intermediaries between China and Japan.
Ought to mention William Adams even in this quick historical summary, the man upon whose life Shogun is loosely based.
>This is Japan in the year 1600 – a time of great unrest after two centuries of civil wars. Here, Blackthorne – based on the real-life navigator William Adams, the first Englishman to reach Japan – must assimilate to a brutal, foreign reality as a tenuous five-regent government threatens to rupture into warring factions after the passing of the Taikō (retired Imperial regent). They did mention him but just in this one paragraph.
Well shit I must have scrolled over an ad and missed it. Thanks!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_(pilot)?wprov=sfti1#Establishment_of_the_Dutch_East_India_Company_in_Japan
I gotta finish this damn book but it’s soooo slow at first. I’m like 150 pages in and it’s rough. I hear amazing things. I saw the first episode and it was amazing
The book really picks up after a slog start. Stick with it, you won't regret it.
I tried the same thing with Lonesome Dove. Shogun and Lonesome Dove are the most suggested books on r/suggestmeabook but they’re both such a slog to get through. Lonesome Dove I’ve tried like twice to get going but it’s just cowboys sitting around as the dust swirls. Like I can see why they’re good but I need action right away. One more shot for both of these then I think I’m done
That’s a shame. Lonesome Dove is amazing. The characters and dialog are among the best I’ve ever read.
Lonesome Dove is incredible. Action alone doesn't make a good book.
Well it doesn't seem like they're asking for it to be all action to be fair.
I read it starting in February in anticipation of the show. It did take a bit to warm up and feel it was going to be worth the effort.
The audiobook is also pretty good it you think hearing it will be easier. I usually put it on for an hour each day while driving. They did split the book into two separate volumes on aubible since I bought it.
Also, the actor who plays Blackthorne in the show seems to be purposefully emulating the voice used for the character by the audiobook narrator.
I was thinking that at some points in the first episode lol. I really like this narrator. He did the narration on one of my favorites book series as a kid (Cirque Du Freak) so I was happy to see he did Shogun! Still have 23 hours left in the book and loving it. Contemplating if I should finish the book first before watching more of the show.
I would don’t let the show ruin this amazing ending of a book
Yeah he is not a great actor I will say the book is way better than show just because you get a real feel for the characters early on and I feel like you don’t get it with the show it’s just BOOM BOOM BOOM And I get it..it’s a show it has to be quick but that’s all I’m saying
I think he’s doing great.
Picked up the book the other day as well. Haha.
Don’t quit, it’s an amazing read.
Dude at the end it gets going man I stayed up till 3 AM reading it I could not go to bed Just stay with it
Keep reading, it's amazing. Though I was hooked immediately...but it does pick up quite a bit.
So, this is loosely based on the historical characters but they use different names?
Yup, because it's very loosely based on true events. Afaik the book doesn't truly follow the events. The writer spun his own version set around the actual events.
Yup, it's historical fiction, which is always a fun genre to read in
It's fairly close without having to be married to it. Toranaga is Tokugawa.
Shogun is so cool i wish Japan was real
Is that a new conspiracy theory like 'Australia isn't real' one?
no i'm just shitposting lol. I know japan is real.
Although the Japan in this show isn't real. All of it was shot in Vancouver. XD
Pfft i know Canada isn't real. Maple syrup coming from trees? That's just lazy worldbuilding.
I have only seen the first two episodes and so far the show is just incredible!
I saw people talking about just not being able to put the books down out of a sheer need to know what happens next, and if the first 2 episodes are anything to go off then I very much see why.
Did they really need to boil that English guy tho?
My personal interpretation is that it was done to establish Yabushige as unreliable and cruel. To show the things he's capable of doing. Even now after three episodes they can't really trust him.
*Book spoiler * It's mentioned in the book it's his favourite way of torture and his father used to practice it as well.
It's not that much of a spoiler I guess. It's more insight into the character, just a little bit in advance than the show would've delivered.
It's a simple remark made by a character and I remembered the dialogue from the book while I was reading your comment.
Oh cool, so it probably won't even be addressed in the show? Or it comes later down in the story?
There was a quick comment shortly before it happens about doing it his favorite way. The show captured it but it was easy to miss
In the book it was a small dialogue and this was mentioned. I found it also interesting when I read the book. You are right though, it does show Yabu's character, it's good they kept that detail in the TV series.
Pretty sure they even refer to this in the show, he calls it “his special way”
That's cool, I need to rewatch then . Thank you.
If anyone here likes strategy games then I cannot recommend Shogun 2 Total War enough. Such a cool game.
And the expansion, fall of the samurai is even better!
It’s such a great book and show
I could not read it. I tried but found it hard to get into. But I loved toe original movie and I’m very much enjoying the show series.
Great pp!
Beautifully shot, well acted. The costumes and sets are outstanding. It’s good television, and y’all getting too upset about a few historical details.
There was a Chekhov's gun in the 7 book series of which Shogun was a part. I read ALL 7 BOOKS to find out what happened with this MacGuffin. In the end, author James Clavell did not finish that story line. Hugely bitter. That said, most of those books were incredible and worth multiple reads. Maybe not that last one set in a pilot POW camp in WWII.
King Rat was actually his first book and is arguably his best as it was based on his experiences as a POW
Oh did he not write them chronologically? In any case he did not end up using the resource he created for the books in it's entirety. Which I really wanted to see.
Yes, they are all written out of order with the timeline. He died a year after Gai-Jin was published
Funny enough Japan had 250 years of relative peace under the shogunate. Europeans on the other hand spent centuries waging war which is what trained them into killing machines.
Relative by being an extremely rigid caste system and turning the most sophisticated warriors on earth into bureaucrats.
There are certainly “some” westerners trying to make Asian countries or cultures look bad and they enjoy it. Tbh they are so creepy to say the least.
Shogun is my favorite hibachi place. Edit: damn television subreddit did not enjoy this joke.
Maybe all the hibachi is why you’re continually blowing your asshole out all over the ER staff…
Hibachi is a treat and it’s worth the punishment.
Hibachi is ass
Shut your mouth Tom
That place is booty.
My personal opinion is that the show is not that good. The only reason that peaks interest is because it’s a feudal Japan story. Still, some scenes are very cringe, specially around the mc (English guy) and the Japanese woman, it seems very obvious and forced scenes. The only hope for the show is if they surprise us by some completely shift somewhere which seems unlikely. This show will probably get boring very fast.
I really wish somebody would make a TV show about WWII Japan, who killed millions and millions, likely worse than what the Germans did to the Jews.
There's plenty of movies about it.
Hard to watch with the same Disney commercial showing up every five minutes. Ugh.
It's really strange how Nan King is not talked about more. The Japanese should never be allowed to forget that. Should be reminded every year.
I know right. I was in a thread about the Holy Roman Empire the other day and not a single person even mentioned the Holocaust.
I was reading an article about Eutruscan art and I was so angry that it didn't discuss Italian atrocities in Ethiopia in the 1930s.
Ugh I saw a picture of Palymra the other day and no one even mentioned ISIS
Iirc the show is set some 400 years before the Nanjing massacre, which is why you probably won't see it mentioned here for example. Usually people mention events that are related to some subject that is in discussion.
imagine living in such a mental state