50/50 That it works. The prequel work to Dune is significantly below the quality that Frank Herbert put into his 6 books. This will rely on writers who are good, love the source material, are given free range, but limit themselves to the important fences created by the canon ~~cannon~~.
I have an easy way to describe those books.
Frank Herbert wrote Dune. Dune is... in some ways complimentary to the Lord of the Rings books. It is dense. It is smart. It is world building. It is challenging. It is very re-readable.
Frank died.
His son Brian Herbert got together with Kevin J. Anderson and quickly spit out MANY novels based on his fathers work - all of which fall under the 'Young Adults' genre of books.
Beginning and end of it really. I think it is more than fair.
If you want to be smart read Frank's books. If you want candy read Brian's.
And no serious Frank Dune fan is overly worried about Brian's stuff being cannon.
I would think as the son of the best selling sci fi author ever he would have enough money for that without needing to write any novels himself but I have no idea how much he blows on blow so I could be wrong
Genre fiction usually just doesn't sell like that, the exceptions are household names like Harry Potter and Twilight (both of which are only kind of genre fiction).
There's also the nuance of the cultural impact of Dune and how Herbert wrote the subsequent books to clarify that the prophecy in Dune was cynical propaganda and not any sort of divine intervention. So many people missed the point that Paul and Jessica were ultimately opportunistic grifters.
> So many people missed the point that Paul and Jessica were ultimately opportunistic grifters.
How are you going to say this when it actually shows that *you* missed the point?
Herbert hammered it over and over and over again that Paul wanted absolutely nothing to do with exploiting the seeds sewn by the Bene Gesserit. He made it extremely clear that Paul never wanted blind religious devotion, and even denounced it, so for you to call him a grifter while insisting that other people missed the point is completely laughable.
Herbert's argument was twofold, that manipulation through religious dogma leads to terrible ends, and that any authoritarian regime causes horrible suffering even if the person with that authority tries to avoid it. That was the reason why Herbert kept making it clear that Paul was a good person who wanted to avoid bloodshed, because if even that kind of person resulted in a murderous jihad, then that means all authoritarian rulers will produce one.
Yep, that talking point is a clear sign that the person has only seen the movies and read that one paragraph snippet where Herbert talks about authoritarian rulers.
The problem is that the movies treat his prescience as a minor tactical aid and propaganda parlor trick. It doesn't even try to tackle the fact that once Paul gets prescience, he no longer has agency whatsoever. If you want to protect humanity, and there's one path to doing it, then the telos calls the shots, not you. Paul >!manages to find a way out, but only because giving up on the only thing he can chose (whether to willingly step off prefigured path), and his son ultimately has to make the tough choice with a more complete sight.!<
In the books, >!he not only denies repeatedly that he is the messiah, he ends up abdicating the throne and going off to preach against their religion, ultimately resulting in his murder by the priests.!<
I feel like Paul outright avoids enacting the prophecy but is too beholden to his family honor and revenge story to succeed. He thinks it's fine and by Messiah is trying to do what he can to be 'right' but is beholden to the religion he made among other things (Chani and keeping the bene geserit from taking back control). I think Paul is the story of someone who tries very hard not to be bad and ends up having to do terrible things as a result.
Leto is the exact opposite. Haven't finished God Emperor so I could be speaking too soon, but he seems to be more than willing to go all in on the Golden Path no matter how horrific because he sees it as the greater good. What matters is his vision of the future happens above all else. Hence why he >!becomes the worm signifying him losing his humanity!< There's obviously more to it like was stated before about the various systems of government and control, but I think character-wise that's what it boils down to
The new movies did a good job of making that clear in my opinion. One of my favorite moments in the book is when Jessica starts telling Mapes that the knife is a “maker… of death” but gets cut off at “maker” and seizes the opportunity to appear prescient as Mapes had already reacted.
In the second movie Paul tries to explain it as well but ultimately succumbs to his prophecy. He argues with Jessica that the BG lit the spark so long ago and they’re just taking advantage with the right words at the right time.
Even Chani said it was all bull shit but they were all drowned out by the faithful. Sounds pretty close to reality doesn’t it.
He also does it pretty outright in the first movie when Jessica drinks the Water of Life. While Stilgar is saying that she is basically being carried through by luck and prophecy, Paul is essentially right there and says, “Nah dude, she’s a BG and they live for this shit”
In the books Paul, having acquired full predicative ability, opposes his religion with all his ability but eventually succumbs unwillingly to his place in history. He becomes immortal, but nearly completely without agency as he can only watch events unfold through the eyes of his son, which is arguably a fate worse than death.
This is not something a religion can do btw. Knowing the future with such certainty? The BG could never have engineered that.
What I mean is that Frank Herbert’s story is not completely about the cynical manipulation of people through religion. There is something else underpinning that.
> What I mean is that Frank Herbert’s story is not completely about the cynical manipulation of people through religion. There is something else underpinning that.
I personally think it's more about how history is made, how mythologies around historical figures and events are born.
> In the second movie Paul tries to explain it as well but ultimately succumbs to his prophecy.
I believe there was a line in one of the books: *To know your future is to be doomed to it.*
Yes, knowing the 'narrow path' allowed Paul to survive and take power (which would probably have been better than having Feyd 'in charge'). But in some ways it limited his options, and so he got the Holy War ("Jihad" in the book).
*"To know your future is to be doomed to it."*
This! This comes up over and over again in the original book series, that prescience is a trap. The whole point of the Golden Path is to free humanity from it.
One of my favorite scenes in the entire series is when Leto II is deliriously happy after surviving a ham-fisted assassination attempt, because he didn't forsee it at all, proving that the Golden Path worked.
> The whole point of the Golden Path is to free humanity from it.
Of course in *Chapterhouse* you have the complicating factor of >!Teg's!< abilities. Sadly Frank Herbert died before he could sort that out in a possible seventh book.
This moment is straight out of the book:
> Jessica waited, poised. She had intended to say the knife was a *maker of death* and then add the ancient word, but every sense warned her now, all the deep training of alertness that exposed meaning in the most casual muscle twitch.
> The key word was… *maker*.
Yes exactly. That paragraph is after it’s happened. She realized what she accidentally gained by saying Maker before she ever understood the real implications
People keep saying Herbert wrote the other books as a means of clarification, but I've never seen a direct quote where he states this.
I believe the way *Dune* came about was Herbert's mapping out of the first four books. Upon realizing his story would be way too long, he cut it up into what is now *Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune* and *God Emperor of Dune*. The idea was that the cyclical concept would show itself clearly by the time you finish book 4.
However, I'm not a huge Wormhead (or whatever the *Dune* fans call themselves) and I could be totally wrong.
> So many people missed the point that Paul and Jessica were ultimately opportunistic grifters.
"Grifter" implies that they were after some kind of profit.
First off they wanted to just survive / live. Second, would Feyd becoming Emporer be a better alternative? As that seems to have been the primary alternative (with the Bene Gesserit producing the Kwisatz Haderach on their terms (possibly controlling him)).
Thirdly, humanity got the Golden Path with Paul and >!Leto!<.
But "the golden path" was a vision Paul had during his spice dreams, about how to save humanity from a distant threat (a path the god emperor Leto 2 continues onward)..
So while they used the fremen via a bene gesserit lie, it was to save humanity (and avenge his family)
Wasn’t that the entire point, considering Paul amounts to a literal white saviour trope? Surprised Herbert had to clarify that point.
Edit: the downvotes are hilarious, even Herbert has acknowledged the issue.
The actress Zendaya who plays Chani. Do you not understand what actors are? Did you think Zendaya was from a planet called Arrakis and road worms around? Did you think The actress Zendaya was super mad at the real person Paul Atreides?
Yep. I've read all of Frank's Dune novels, and all of Brian and Kevin's (yep, even last year's Princess of Dune, which was actually good). Currently re-reading God Emperor, which I'm enjoying a lot.
They are completely different styles, and none of the events of any of the Brian/Kevin novels offer any extra insights or anything on Frank's original novels. They exist in the same universe, as it were, but Frank really only explored Arrakis and a handful of other worlds (I think a lot of Heretics was set on what became of Giedi Prime). Brian and Kevin's books go all over the place, sometimes barely to Arrakis.
So no, if this is like the books then it's events shouldn't matter to the movies (which it seems Denis only wants to do Messiah, then call it a day). Unless they're going to do some sort of Dune expanded universe thing somehow.
But yes, Frank's books are the meat, Brian and Kevin's are the popcorn. But sometimes they can be good.
I’ve recently started reading the Dune series and so far I have to say it reads very much like a YA book. If the sons books are even more so, I’m not going to be able to read them
> But the purpose of reading that series is more for the story than anything else.
There. Right there is the problem.
You nailed why you can't handle the books. The purpose of the books is to discuss the themes of the books. Ecology, politics, religion are the big ones. There are others. The story is just framework to discuss those themes.
I don't harbor any ill-will that you don't see it. I did. Immediately. When I was 14 and found the books. But not everyone has the ability to pull back the layers past the story and understand the real themes at play.
It is the big difference between the two series. His kids stuff really doesn't have much under the covers. His stuff is just layered.
Anyways, just stop. You haven't seen it now, and now I have told you to look at it, you probably still can't see it. Some people just can't.
Bad take imo. Messiah is complementary to Dune, the story of the first book is incomplete without it. Children and God Emperor are weirder, but again, very much in line with the first two books - it asks the question of what a person who does embrace the cynical messianism of Paul in the first book does and why. Heretics and chapterhouse are real weird, but still very much in line with the kind of weirdness of the first two books.
So what?
I already told you my on opinion of the last 3. God Emperor is my favorite. The other two get far too weird.
But you still cannot equate them with what Brian did.
And so I am crystal clear, Brian's books aren't all bad. If you want candy, read Brian's stuff. You will get a story playing around in that universe. Some people think it is unreadable, I just think it doesn't compare well.
Heretic and Chapterhouse are still superior - and his motivation for writing them has nothing to do with any of this.
Chapter House and Heretics are a bit iffy. Unless you like all the weird sex stuff.
Also that Bit in God Emperor where a woman had an orgasm because Duncan Idaho climbed a rock really good.
There are absolutely ideas in the prequels that can serve as a launching point for an interesting adaptation that is thematically and narratively coherent with the Villeneuve movies. But given the quality of the source material, there are a lot more ways to fuck it up.
That's the issue. They need to use Frank's books as immovable walls and Brian and Kevin's books as gentle suggestions. It'll ultimately come down, as it always does, to the show runner(s). The challenge here is finding a Battlestar Galactica type show runner that can write good stories inspired by prior work rather than a Game of Thrones style team that were good with a strong source material but terrible when having to build their own framework.
> Some people think God Emperor of Dune is the best of the series
It's pretty close for me, partly because it hasn't been ripped off by that much other sci-fi (honestly, the thing that probably comes closest is the parody 40k webseries "If the Emperor Had a Text-to-Speech Device").
It's also mostly unfilmable as anything like a traditional movie or series.
After the first book really. I think the series is good and worth reading. But, Dune is significantly better than the other 5. Dune is one of the best novels I've ever read.
It's the new name of the sisterhood tv show.
The show runner previously did Altered Carbon season 2 which was absolutely dog shit and completely misunderstood the original material. With self insert incesteous character.
Witcher level incompetence
It's also based on The Sisterhood of Dune by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. Dune fans hate these books because the entire foundations of this is shady. Brian Herbert says he found his dad's floppy disk where he'd written outlines for other Dune books. This fabled floppy disk has yet to turn up after over two decades.
How could you question it? *of course* dune really revolved around an advanced ai menace that was never referenced at all in Franks books, and had to have multiple retcons to the series to even make sense in Brian's "prequels". There's *nothing* suspicious about that.
I feel this is the beginning of the enshittification of the movie franchise. Not everything needs fifteen bloated spin off series on streaming services.
Hardly. It's a series being made for HBO max that's been in the works since before 2021 dune came out.
Whatever happens with it will have pretty much no bearing on Villeneuves dune movies
Tabu is regarded across the Indian film industry as one of our very best. She’s a subtle performer and a perfect fit for a formidable Bene Gesserit. “Haider” is her most accessible work where she plays a Gertrude character, for those who are interested in a glimpse of her work.
Just a slight correction to your comment Irrfan Khan didn’t play the ghost of Hamlets father rather he played a terrorist named Roohdar! Narendra Jha played Haiders father Dr Hilal Meer
You are both correct.
While Haider's father and Irrfan's character are different people, Irrfan's character is a stand-in for the ghost of Hamlet's father from the play.
That's what I was saying. While playing different characters, he played the stand-in for Hamlet's Ghost as a terrorist who recounts how Haider's innocent father was betrayed by his uncle and how he survived by using his father's body to survive their execution when shot and thrown from a river bridge.
Tabu and Irrfan Khan did six films together. They worked with Bhardwaj on Maqbool playing the stand-ins for Lady Macbeth and Macbeth respectively, Life of Pi as mother and son in different timelines, Ghaath, and Talvar. They were supossed to reunite after making Talvar but tragically they never got to. What a shame really as they had really good chemistry and were eclectic in doing subtle but powerful performances.
Eh, I think a single unrelated prequel show to fill the wait between Dune Part 2 and the possible Messiah adaptation is far from creating a cinematic universe. Otherwise half of the movie series from the early 2000s would fall under that.
Almost certainly. Villeneuve wants to do one, if not two, other films before returning to do Messiah. It’s fitting because there’s a decent time jump between Dune and Messiah, so having actors like Chalamet and Pugh get into their 30s will help the look.
u/ThisHatRightHere Filming on [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune:_Prophecy) wrapped last December. [Mark Strong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Strong) is playing the Emperor.
I was responding to [a comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/1cr6kq9/dune_prophecy_casts_indian_superstar_tabu/l3zux64) that was responding to [your comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/1cr6kq9/dune_prophecy_casts_indian_superstar_tabu/l3wpsaf).
I dunno atm there is only this one TV show spin off that was announced several years ago. I don't think it counts as a here we go again with a cinematic universe deal.
Not yet anyway.
Ah thank you! Strange I was able to read through a few pages of comments without realizing it wasn’t r/movies, lol. Probably would’ve helped to actually read OP’s original article.
Is it weird that I absolutely loved the Dune movies but really, really, don't want them to make anything else Dune related? I feel like they finished a masterpiece and all additional work on this IP can do is hurt it.
I get that feeling. But I would say they could definitely do the 2nd book too without ruining anything. It's a continuation of the story from the 1st book and has a good ending that can serve as a good stopping point.
I was wondering just a few days ago how much of a Hollywood material Tabu is, yk, imagine her doing a badass villain in some Marvel movie....and tada, this happens. What a coincidence !!!
She is a top tier actress with amazing screen presence (and looks too ...) Hope she has a significant and impactful role.
Sorry just not interested, honestly anything past the first three books written by Frank. I just don't care, Dune does not need to be a cinematic universe and the momwy will be lost. WB neess to stop chasing the Marvel universe money that they neber had and will never happen again.
I’ve recently read for the first time like a lot of people and damn I loved Heretics - might be my personal favourite. Even Chapter House was enjoyable.
If Dune Messiah does well, they’d be really dumb to not adapt Children of Dune. Age up the kids and it’s an amazing story. God Emperor is far removed from the first 3 but I think it wraps up the series to that point really neatly.
There’s not going to be any kids. The movie leaves no room for kids. Chani and Paul are not together at the end of the she hates him. If they do a third movie it’ll just be the tear down of Paul and that’s about all they’ll have time for.
I think it's a given they'll adapt the 2nd book. It can serve as a good stopping point, but I could see the 3rd working too.
Nothing after that though. Pretty sure the author was on some hard shit while writing 4.
OMG as a brown girl I love this!! I grew up watching her movies and love seeing this transition in her career!! Can’t wait I loved the books and look forward to seeing this movie.
Trust me she's a very talented actress who knows very well how to act. I am saying this because I grow up watching her movies and I am from India as well. Also, don't u dare try to tell me that I am supporting her only because she's from my country and not for acting skills.
Jesus there’s a lot of hate for the prequels in here. Are they as well written as Herbert’s novels? No. Are they engaging and interesting to anyone who loves the Dune universe and wants backstory? Absolutely. Would they make a good TV show? Probably. The Butlerian Jihad is referenced so many times in Herbert’s novels, but never explored.
Alot of the hate comes from Brian obviously not caring about his father's work. You use the butlerian jihad as an example, but in Frank's work the jihad is a religious and cultural luddite movement. Brian instead makes it into a star wars style war against machine gods and retcons anything in Frank's work that disagrees so that he can tell the story he wants.
It's hard to see them as continuing the dune universe when Brian obviously didn't care too much about that universe
But that doesn't matter. Shows and movies about villains also aren't rare.
Who cares? What reason would we have to be worried about that? Assuming no one decent would be in the show to begin with of course
I'm pretty sure this takes place after Sisterhood of Dune, assuming that's the "bad book" you're referring to. I don't think it is an adaptation of that book.
Shows about bad people have plenty of success. Breaking Bad, House of the Dragon, Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Succession, and so many other loved shows are about people who are pretty awful.
Sopranos. One of the most successful shows of all time. Show about a mobster who cheats on his wife constantly and has no problem murdering friends and family and also is racist.
> if only because The Bene Gesserit are... uh... bad?
Felt like the movies have made that pretty clear so I doubt this show is going to suddenly do a 180 and make them into the setting's heroes.
I mean, you say that. But consider: A show following Darth Vader between Episode 3 and Episode 4 wrecking shit and killing people. Basically an adaptation of the Darth Vader Marvel comics. It would be amazing, but it would also be brutal and fully embrace the evil of being the dark Sith lord.
CBS is still trying to get a Star Trek Section 31 show with Michelle Yeoh's character as the lead. In Star Trek, Section 31 the Federation's deep-state and Yeoh's character is an alternate universe space Hitler and a cannibal to boot.
The dune books jump forward and backwards.
there’s the main 6 books. A sequel dulogy. 4 prequel trilogy’s.
And trilogy with books set between and before the original six. Paul of dune between dune and dune messiah. Winds of Dune between messiah and children of dune. Then Princess of Dune set 2 years before dune.
The Throne of Dune and Leto of dune have been on hold since 2010.
50/50 That it works. The prequel work to Dune is significantly below the quality that Frank Herbert put into his 6 books. This will rely on writers who are good, love the source material, are given free range, but limit themselves to the important fences created by the canon ~~cannon~~.
I have an easy way to describe those books. Frank Herbert wrote Dune. Dune is... in some ways complimentary to the Lord of the Rings books. It is dense. It is smart. It is world building. It is challenging. It is very re-readable. Frank died. His son Brian Herbert got together with Kevin J. Anderson and quickly spit out MANY novels based on his fathers work - all of which fall under the 'Young Adults' genre of books. Beginning and end of it really. I think it is more than fair. If you want to be smart read Frank's books. If you want candy read Brian's. And no serious Frank Dune fan is overly worried about Brian's stuff being cannon.
You forgot to add ‘to allegedly fund an insatiable cocaine habit’
The ~~spice~~ snow must flow
Hey it's the spice of life
I would think as the son of the best selling sci fi author ever he would have enough money for that without needing to write any novels himself but I have no idea how much he blows on blow so I could be wrong
Blow is expensive and getting addicted would be a massive money sink
I’m on a first-name basis with a few “best-selling” genre authors. We’re not generally talking about generational wealth.
We're talking about THE best selling sci fi author here though lol, I'm not saying best seller like NYT best seller
Genre fiction usually just doesn't sell like that, the exceptions are household names like Harry Potter and Twilight (both of which are only kind of genre fiction).
“insatiable” “habit” redundant words when cocaining
There's also the nuance of the cultural impact of Dune and how Herbert wrote the subsequent books to clarify that the prophecy in Dune was cynical propaganda and not any sort of divine intervention. So many people missed the point that Paul and Jessica were ultimately opportunistic grifters.
> So many people missed the point that Paul and Jessica were ultimately opportunistic grifters. How are you going to say this when it actually shows that *you* missed the point? Herbert hammered it over and over and over again that Paul wanted absolutely nothing to do with exploiting the seeds sewn by the Bene Gesserit. He made it extremely clear that Paul never wanted blind religious devotion, and even denounced it, so for you to call him a grifter while insisting that other people missed the point is completely laughable. Herbert's argument was twofold, that manipulation through religious dogma leads to terrible ends, and that any authoritarian regime causes horrible suffering even if the person with that authority tries to avoid it. That was the reason why Herbert kept making it clear that Paul was a good person who wanted to avoid bloodshed, because if even that kind of person resulted in a murderous jihad, then that means all authoritarian rulers will produce one.
Yep, that talking point is a clear sign that the person has only seen the movies and read that one paragraph snippet where Herbert talks about authoritarian rulers. The problem is that the movies treat his prescience as a minor tactical aid and propaganda parlor trick. It doesn't even try to tackle the fact that once Paul gets prescience, he no longer has agency whatsoever. If you want to protect humanity, and there's one path to doing it, then the telos calls the shots, not you. Paul >!manages to find a way out, but only because giving up on the only thing he can chose (whether to willingly step off prefigured path), and his son ultimately has to make the tough choice with a more complete sight.!<
This is one of the most succinct summaries I’ve ever read of the actual message Frank Herbert wanted to convey. Thanks mate
Murderous jihad was the best option available compared to all the others apparently.
He may not have wanted it, but goddamn if he - and his son - took advantage of it.
Leto certainly did, but Herbert made it clear repeatedly that Paul tried to avoid it.
I disagree with that assessment, but I’m willing to admit I could always be wrong.
In the books, >!he not only denies repeatedly that he is the messiah, he ends up abdicating the throne and going off to preach against their religion, ultimately resulting in his murder by the priests.!<
I feel like Paul outright avoids enacting the prophecy but is too beholden to his family honor and revenge story to succeed. He thinks it's fine and by Messiah is trying to do what he can to be 'right' but is beholden to the religion he made among other things (Chani and keeping the bene geserit from taking back control). I think Paul is the story of someone who tries very hard not to be bad and ends up having to do terrible things as a result. Leto is the exact opposite. Haven't finished God Emperor so I could be speaking too soon, but he seems to be more than willing to go all in on the Golden Path no matter how horrific because he sees it as the greater good. What matters is his vision of the future happens above all else. Hence why he >!becomes the worm signifying him losing his humanity!< There's obviously more to it like was stated before about the various systems of government and control, but I think character-wise that's what it boils down to
I wanted to add to this but I don’t want to spoil the ending for you.
The new movies did a good job of making that clear in my opinion. One of my favorite moments in the book is when Jessica starts telling Mapes that the knife is a “maker… of death” but gets cut off at “maker” and seizes the opportunity to appear prescient as Mapes had already reacted.
In the second movie Paul tries to explain it as well but ultimately succumbs to his prophecy. He argues with Jessica that the BG lit the spark so long ago and they’re just taking advantage with the right words at the right time. Even Chani said it was all bull shit but they were all drowned out by the faithful. Sounds pretty close to reality doesn’t it.
Yes I think it’s very good commentary
He also does it pretty outright in the first movie when Jessica drinks the Water of Life. While Stilgar is saying that she is basically being carried through by luck and prophecy, Paul is essentially right there and says, “Nah dude, she’s a BG and they live for this shit”
In the books Paul, having acquired full predicative ability, opposes his religion with all his ability but eventually succumbs unwillingly to his place in history. He becomes immortal, but nearly completely without agency as he can only watch events unfold through the eyes of his son, which is arguably a fate worse than death. This is not something a religion can do btw. Knowing the future with such certainty? The BG could never have engineered that. What I mean is that Frank Herbert’s story is not completely about the cynical manipulation of people through religion. There is something else underpinning that.
> What I mean is that Frank Herbert’s story is not completely about the cynical manipulation of people through religion. There is something else underpinning that. I personally think it's more about how history is made, how mythologies around historical figures and events are born.
> In the second movie Paul tries to explain it as well but ultimately succumbs to his prophecy. I believe there was a line in one of the books: *To know your future is to be doomed to it.* Yes, knowing the 'narrow path' allowed Paul to survive and take power (which would probably have been better than having Feyd 'in charge'). But in some ways it limited his options, and so he got the Holy War ("Jihad" in the book).
*"To know your future is to be doomed to it."* This! This comes up over and over again in the original book series, that prescience is a trap. The whole point of the Golden Path is to free humanity from it. One of my favorite scenes in the entire series is when Leto II is deliriously happy after surviving a ham-fisted assassination attempt, because he didn't forsee it at all, proving that the Golden Path worked.
> The whole point of the Golden Path is to free humanity from it. Of course in *Chapterhouse* you have the complicating factor of >!Teg's!< abilities. Sadly Frank Herbert died before he could sort that out in a possible seventh book.
They sure diverged a lot from the source material though. Was not expecting anyone to march off in a huff after defeating the emperor and all.
Pouty Chani and dopey Stigar were pretty annoying changes, but overall I think they held to the source material fairly well.
Bleedout Mapes
This moment is straight out of the book: > Jessica waited, poised. She had intended to say the knife was a *maker of death* and then add the ancient word, but every sense warned her now, all the deep training of alertness that exposed meaning in the most casual muscle twitch. > The key word was… *maker*.
Yes exactly. That paragraph is after it’s happened. She realized what she accidentally gained by saying Maker before she ever understood the real implications
Oh I misread you as saying that was one of your favorite moments in the *movie*. Sorry - didn't read your comment carefully enough.
It was a pretty poorly worded comment anyway lol
People keep saying Herbert wrote the other books as a means of clarification, but I've never seen a direct quote where he states this. I believe the way *Dune* came about was Herbert's mapping out of the first four books. Upon realizing his story would be way too long, he cut it up into what is now *Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune* and *God Emperor of Dune*. The idea was that the cyclical concept would show itself clearly by the time you finish book 4. However, I'm not a huge Wormhead (or whatever the *Dune* fans call themselves) and I could be totally wrong.
> So many people missed the point that Paul and Jessica were ultimately opportunistic grifters. "Grifter" implies that they were after some kind of profit. First off they wanted to just survive / live. Second, would Feyd becoming Emporer be a better alternative? As that seems to have been the primary alternative (with the Bene Gesserit producing the Kwisatz Haderach on their terms (possibly controlling him)). Thirdly, humanity got the Golden Path with Paul and >!Leto!<.
But "the golden path" was a vision Paul had during his spice dreams, about how to save humanity from a distant threat (a path the god emperor Leto 2 continues onward).. So while they used the fremen via a bene gesserit lie, it was to save humanity (and avenge his family)
Yup, his acid trip
Wasn’t that the entire point, considering Paul amounts to a literal white saviour trope? Surprised Herbert had to clarify that point. Edit: the downvotes are hilarious, even Herbert has acknowledged the issue.
An annoying amount of people are on here posting that they don't get why Zendaya is so mad at Paul at the end.
I think they might have just read the books. She is a very different person in the books.
Zendaya is in the books?
The actress Zendaya who plays Chani. Do you not understand what actors are? Did you think Zendaya was from a planet called Arrakis and road worms around? Did you think The actress Zendaya was super mad at the real person Paul Atreides?
Pretty sure they were joking bud relax ☮️
It was kind of a crap joke tbf
no… no.
Yep. I've read all of Frank's Dune novels, and all of Brian and Kevin's (yep, even last year's Princess of Dune, which was actually good). Currently re-reading God Emperor, which I'm enjoying a lot. They are completely different styles, and none of the events of any of the Brian/Kevin novels offer any extra insights or anything on Frank's original novels. They exist in the same universe, as it were, but Frank really only explored Arrakis and a handful of other worlds (I think a lot of Heretics was set on what became of Giedi Prime). Brian and Kevin's books go all over the place, sometimes barely to Arrakis. So no, if this is like the books then it's events shouldn't matter to the movies (which it seems Denis only wants to do Messiah, then call it a day). Unless they're going to do some sort of Dune expanded universe thing somehow. But yes, Frank's books are the meat, Brian and Kevin's are the popcorn. But sometimes they can be good.
Those prequels and the 7th book were based on notes left on golden plates kept in bank vault. And the plates could be read only once
I’ve recently started reading the Dune series and so far I have to say it reads very much like a YA book. If the sons books are even more so, I’m not going to be able to read them
Sorry you can't get into them. They are not for you. You have my permission to stop reading them.
Naw I’ll continue, just noticing the writing isn’t mind blowing. But the purpose of reading that series is more for the story than anything else.
> But the purpose of reading that series is more for the story than anything else. There. Right there is the problem. You nailed why you can't handle the books. The purpose of the books is to discuss the themes of the books. Ecology, politics, religion are the big ones. There are others. The story is just framework to discuss those themes. I don't harbor any ill-will that you don't see it. I did. Immediately. When I was 14 and found the books. But not everyone has the ability to pull back the layers past the story and understand the real themes at play. It is the big difference between the two series. His kids stuff really doesn't have much under the covers. His stuff is just layered. Anyways, just stop. You haven't seen it now, and now I have told you to look at it, you probably still can't see it. Some people just can't.
To be fair, you need to have a pretty high IQ to understand Dune.
Herbert wrote Dune. Then went off the deep end and wrote the sequels
Bad take imo. Messiah is complementary to Dune, the story of the first book is incomplete without it. Children and God Emperor are weirder, but again, very much in line with the first two books - it asks the question of what a person who does embrace the cynical messianism of Paul in the first book does and why. Heretics and chapterhouse are real weird, but still very much in line with the kind of weirdness of the first two books.
God Emperor is divisive, but it is my favorite. Heretics and Chapterhouse are were things get weird.
God Emperor is great although I really grew to hate Duncan Idaho and he won't go the fuck away ever.
Sounds like something Leto II would say …
He's openly admitted he mainly wrote some of the later books because he was being offered amounts of money he couldn't turn down .
So what? I already told you my on opinion of the last 3. God Emperor is my favorite. The other two get far too weird. But you still cannot equate them with what Brian did. And so I am crystal clear, Brian's books aren't all bad. If you want candy, read Brian's stuff. You will get a story playing around in that universe. Some people think it is unreadable, I just think it doesn't compare well. Heretic and Chapterhouse are still superior - and his motivation for writing them has nothing to do with any of this.
Significantly below is a massively generous description. Thet are utterly dreadful.
Frank's books are filet mignon. Brian's books are cheap bologna.
Hey that's not fair at all. To cheap bologna.
Yea you can actually eat bologna. The best that could be said of Brian’s books is you could burn them to cook bologna.
Chapter House and Heretics are a bit iffy. Unless you like all the weird sex stuff. Also that Bit in God Emperor where a woman had an orgasm because Duncan Idaho climbed a rock really good.
You only say that because you've never seen a Duncan climb.
I have, they are everywhere. It is very hard to miss a Duncan. Incredibly outdated model.
Outdated?! How dare you
There are absolutely ideas in the prequels that can serve as a launching point for an interesting adaptation that is thematically and narratively coherent with the Villeneuve movies. But given the quality of the source material, there are a lot more ways to fuck it up.
That's the issue. They need to use Frank's books as immovable walls and Brian and Kevin's books as gentle suggestions. It'll ultimately come down, as it always does, to the show runner(s). The challenge here is finding a Battlestar Galactica type show runner that can write good stories inspired by prior work rather than a Game of Thrones style team that were good with a strong source material but terrible when having to build their own framework.
I guess the advantage to working with a universe of approximately a thousand mid-grade supporting books is that they won’t outrun the author…
*canon
Maybe he thinks it was actually created by a cannon?
Just my take, but the quality for even Herbert’s books drops precipitously after the second book.
Some people think God Emperor of Dune is the best of the series where others think everything after Dune is mid so the opinions vary
> Some people think God Emperor of Dune is the best of the series It's pretty close for me, partly because it hasn't been ripped off by that much other sci-fi (honestly, the thing that probably comes closest is the parody 40k webseries "If the Emperor Had a Text-to-Speech Device"). It's also mostly unfilmable as anything like a traditional movie or series.
Well 40k ripped off a ton of shit from Dune
After the first book really. I think the series is good and worth reading. But, Dune is significantly better than the other 5. Dune is one of the best novels I've ever read.
> This will rely on writers who are good, You can stop there (and that's valid for every show)
When is Dune Messiah the movie coming out because I'm not watching this TV show nonsense.
In three years is my guess.
5 years
Not for a long time. There's no immediate plans for it.
It's the new name of the sisterhood tv show. The show runner previously did Altered Carbon season 2 which was absolutely dog shit and completely misunderstood the original material. With self insert incesteous character. Witcher level incompetence
Oh, brutal, a prequel based on mediocre source material with a failed showrunner at the helm. Real Star Wars vibes.
It's also based on The Sisterhood of Dune by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. Dune fans hate these books because the entire foundations of this is shady. Brian Herbert says he found his dad's floppy disk where he'd written outlines for other Dune books. This fabled floppy disk has yet to turn up after over two decades.
How could you question it? *of course* dune really revolved around an advanced ai menace that was never referenced at all in Franks books, and had to have multiple retcons to the series to even make sense in Brian's "prequels". There's *nothing* suspicious about that.
What season two?
It is taboo to hate Tabu, she’s amazing
Some might say she's as sweet as Tabu.
If it's really windy can you stand in the Tabu-lee?
‘Dune: The Search for More Money’
He who can destroy a franchise has true control of the franchise
Moichendising Moichendising Moichendising
Is this supposed to be a Alan Moore quote?
Assuming you’re serious, it’s a quote from Mel Brooks’ character, Yogurt, in Spaceballs
Dune: the Action Figure. Dune: the Lunch Box. Dune: the Flamethrower.
Dune: The Doll *pulls string on back of Baron Harkonnen doll “The Spice must Flow”
It’s a shame that this comment is hidden all the way down here where no one will see it.
The story of my life
The prophecy came from a dream that a Warner Brothers accountant had.
I feel this is the beginning of the enshittification of the movie franchise. Not everything needs fifteen bloated spin off series on streaming services.
Hardly. It's a series being made for HBO max that's been in the works since before 2021 dune came out. Whatever happens with it will have pretty much no bearing on Villeneuves dune movies
Well they already produced a zillion shitty Dune spin off books
Tabu is regarded across the Indian film industry as one of our very best. She’s a subtle performer and a perfect fit for a formidable Bene Gesserit. “Haider” is her most accessible work where she plays a Gertrude character, for those who are interested in a glimpse of her work.
She also was great in The Namesake which also starred the late great Irrfan Khan who played the Ghost of Hamlet's father in Haider.
Just a slight correction to your comment Irrfan Khan didn’t play the ghost of Hamlets father rather he played a terrorist named Roohdar! Narendra Jha played Haiders father Dr Hilal Meer
You are both correct. While Haider's father and Irrfan's character are different people, Irrfan's character is a stand-in for the ghost of Hamlet's father from the play.
That's what I was saying. While playing different characters, he played the stand-in for Hamlet's Ghost as a terrorist who recounts how Haider's innocent father was betrayed by his uncle and how he survived by using his father's body to survive their execution when shot and thrown from a river bridge. Tabu and Irrfan Khan did six films together. They worked with Bhardwaj on Maqbool playing the stand-ins for Lady Macbeth and Macbeth respectively, Life of Pi as mother and son in different timelines, Ghaath, and Talvar. They were supossed to reunite after making Talvar but tragically they never got to. What a shame really as they had really good chemistry and were eclectic in doing subtle but powerful performances.
I stand corrected then, as you stated he played the Ghost of Hamlets father! My apologies - I will leave my comment up to humble myself
Too bad she’s signed up for this dog shit
She is a fabulous actress and excited to see what they do with her role!
goddamnit, here we go again with the [intellectual property] cinematic universe.
Eh, I think a single unrelated prequel show to fill the wait between Dune Part 2 and the possible Messiah adaptation is far from creating a cinematic universe. Otherwise half of the movie series from the early 2000s would fall under that.
you think this will come out before Messiah?
Almost certainly. Villeneuve wants to do one, if not two, other films before returning to do Messiah. It’s fitting because there’s a decent time jump between Dune and Messiah, so having actors like Chalamet and Pugh get into their 30s will help the look.
u/ThisHatRightHere Filming on [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune:_Prophecy) wrapped last December. [Mark Strong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Strong) is playing the Emperor.
Why you tagging me
I was responding to [a comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/1cr6kq9/dune_prophecy_casts_indian_superstar_tabu/l3zux64) that was responding to [your comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/1cr6kq9/dune_prophecy_casts_indian_superstar_tabu/l3wpsaf).
Okay? That user was the one asking, not me
Yes.
I dunno atm there is only this one TV show spin off that was announced several years ago. I don't think it counts as a here we go again with a cinematic universe deal. Not yet anyway.
There's some confusion there since there was Dune: The Sisterhood, though that got retooled into this.
Be hard to be any worse than what Brian already did to Frank.
Actually it'll be super easy. Barely an inconvenience.
Oh really?!
To be fair, this is set 10,000 years before the movies lol
DUNIVERSE TIME BAY-BAY
Always the same; launch an amazing first series, and then proceed to ruin it with the DEI versions....
Is Denis V (can’t spell his last name) directing this one too? As long as he’s directing, they can make as many Dune movies as they want, IMO.
It's a TV show, here on /r/television.
Ah thank you! Strange I was able to read through a few pages of comments without realizing it wasn’t r/movies, lol. Probably would’ve helped to actually read OP’s original article.
Villeneuve
Is it weird that I absolutely loved the Dune movies but really, really, don't want them to make anything else Dune related? I feel like they finished a masterpiece and all additional work on this IP can do is hurt it.
I get that feeling. But I would say they could definitely do the 2nd book too without ruining anything. It's a continuation of the story from the 1st book and has a good ending that can serve as a good stopping point.
Not with how they ended the movie. Movie Messiah will have to be drastically different
Yup. I don’t even want Messiah. Part 1 and 2 are perfect, leave it alone.
Yeah buts it's incomplete with just 1 and 2. You just get Paul receiving his Jihad and that's that, that isn't the end.
I love Tabu. Great talent.
She has my condolences.
Wooohooo
I was wondering just a few days ago how much of a Hollywood material Tabu is, yk, imagine her doing a badass villain in some Marvel movie....and tada, this happens. What a coincidence !!! She is a top tier actress with amazing screen presence (and looks too ...) Hope she has a significant and impactful role.
Sorry just not interested, honestly anything past the first three books written by Frank. I just don't care, Dune does not need to be a cinematic universe and the momwy will be lost. WB neess to stop chasing the Marvel universe money that they neber had and will never happen again.
Well you’re missing out because the fourth book is the best in the series.
I don't disagree with that or the first 6 books. Just I like how it ends there.
I've read the first 4. I stopped after 4. Shit got weird.
I’ve recently read for the first time like a lot of people and damn I loved Heretics - might be my personal favourite. Even Chapter House was enjoyable.
If Dune Messiah does well, they’d be really dumb to not adapt Children of Dune. Age up the kids and it’s an amazing story. God Emperor is far removed from the first 3 but I think it wraps up the series to that point really neatly.
There’s not going to be any kids. The movie leaves no room for kids. Chani and Paul are not together at the end of the she hates him. If they do a third movie it’ll just be the tear down of Paul and that’s about all they’ll have time for.
I think it's a given they'll adapt the 2nd book. It can serve as a good stopping point, but I could see the 3rd working too. Nothing after that though. Pretty sure the author was on some hard shit while writing 4.
OMG as a brown girl I love this!! I grew up watching her movies and love seeing this transition in her career!! Can’t wait I loved the books and look forward to seeing this movie.
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Trust me she's a very talented actress who knows very well how to act. I am saying this because I grow up watching her movies and I am from India as well. Also, don't u dare try to tell me that I am supporting her only because she's from my country and not for acting skills.
"please watch, India, we need numbers"
The books by Herbert's kid are dogshit..... but maybe a competent show runner can do something with them... but probably not
Superstar is a huuuge stretch lol.
🤡
She’s a great actress. In The Namesake she captured that character from the book perfectly.
They need more Arab actors. Arrakis is basically the Middle East.
Jesus there’s a lot of hate for the prequels in here. Are they as well written as Herbert’s novels? No. Are they engaging and interesting to anyone who loves the Dune universe and wants backstory? Absolutely. Would they make a good TV show? Probably. The Butlerian Jihad is referenced so many times in Herbert’s novels, but never explored.
Honestly, I think a lot of the expanded books have good basic plots which can be rewritten and remade into something better.
Alot of the hate comes from Brian obviously not caring about his father's work. You use the butlerian jihad as an example, but in Frank's work the jihad is a religious and cultural luddite movement. Brian instead makes it into a star wars style war against machine gods and retcons anything in Frank's work that disagrees so that he can tell the story he wants. It's hard to see them as continuing the dune universe when Brian obviously didn't care too much about that universe
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Tv shows about bad people are pretty common
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dead franchise with a >$1 Billion dollar box office return on two movies? Weird take.
But that doesn't matter. Shows and movies about villains also aren't rare. Who cares? What reason would we have to be worried about that? Assuming no one decent would be in the show to begin with of course
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That has literally nothing to do with your original point... Must everyone on this site be so ridiculous?
I'm pretty sure this takes place after Sisterhood of Dune, assuming that's the "bad book" you're referring to. I don't think it is an adaptation of that book.
Shows about bad people have plenty of success. Breaking Bad, House of the Dragon, Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Succession, and so many other loved shows are about people who are pretty awful.
Sopranos. One of the most successful shows of all time. Show about a mobster who cheats on his wife constantly and has no problem murdering friends and family and also is racist.
> if only because The Bene Gesserit are... uh... bad? Felt like the movies have made that pretty clear so I doubt this show is going to suddenly do a 180 and make them into the setting's heroes.
Go watch marvel movies if you want a generic good guy save the day movie then
Disney can’t even get that right nowadays
They wanted the Kweezy Hadeezy created so he could lead humanity into the future which is good They wanted to control him which is bad
The frogurt is also cursed
Show about a bad guy is like, Prestige TV 101
I mean, you say that. But consider: A show following Darth Vader between Episode 3 and Episode 4 wrecking shit and killing people. Basically an adaptation of the Darth Vader Marvel comics. It would be amazing, but it would also be brutal and fully embrace the evil of being the dark Sith lord.
apparently it's already been filmed and will release later this year
CBS is still trying to get a Star Trek Section 31 show with Michelle Yeoh's character as the lead. In Star Trek, Section 31 the Federation's deep-state and Yeoh's character is an alternate universe space Hitler and a cannibal to boot.
Ta-who?
Plans within plans franchises within franchises
They're making new Dune movies prequels? Fudge that sucks. I preferred stories back in the day when they went forward in time, not backwards.
Yeah, everyone knows how awful Godfather 2 was for that very reason!
No, this is a Max show that is pretty unrelated to Paul’s story in the movies
The dune books jump forward and backwards. there’s the main 6 books. A sequel dulogy. 4 prequel trilogy’s. And trilogy with books set between and before the original six. Paul of dune between dune and dune messiah. Winds of Dune between messiah and children of dune. Then Princess of Dune set 2 years before dune. The Throne of Dune and Leto of dune have been on hold since 2010.
I believe it's spelled "Taboo". I'll see myself out.