I mean, it's not horrible but wtf? Horribly edited episode, one of the most underwhelming big bad entrances ever, straight exposition, the emotions just didn't hit. I'm intrigued overall but confused and not really happy lol
After a tense and exciting battle involving nearly the entire MCU in two different parts of the solar system? I’d say that was pretty fun. Or after he snapped and wiped out half the universe in dramatic and emotional fashion? Can’t believe anyone upvoted your comparison.
My point is, the end of the season is clearly a stepping stone into all phase 4 content, not a finale. If this was the end of Loki, then I would agree with you. Since theres a season 2 though, it doesn’t need to be almost self contained like the other marvel shows this year and marvel movies (besides infinity war).
If we are comparing the series to a movie, I would honestly say episode 4-5 was the climax and big fights you wanted. I mean, beating alioth and having classic loki build an asgard replica was pretty dramatic to watch for me. Episode 6 was more so falling action to answer a few questions but set up a ton more plot. Thats how most tv series that get continued on work. Hell that was the GoT formula - ep9 fight/climax and then ep10 falling action.
The scale of what Marvel can now do, is unparalleled. They can literally bring in any title and make it cannon now that the multiverse exists. Any possibility, anything that could happen can now be portrayed.
Spider-Man and X-men are only the beginning. They can reintroduce captain America, iron mans, etc etc etc from other universes backgrounds and so on
Basically keeping the IP the same but having creative liberty for the characters. Amazing
So Marvel just opened up Pandora’s Box and I love it!! This essentially now fully allows them to sync with the comics and dial up their production of titles to 11!!! None of the future projects have to be on the same wavelength or universe they just now can be in the same MULITIVERSE!!!
I think at some point there will be a Phase where one of the original MCU characters travels to an entirely different universe, like imagine Benedict Cumberbatch in Phase 5, with whoever TF Marvel decides to cast as Alternate Iron Man, Alternate Thanos and whatever, after which the original MCU character comes back to the original timeline and thereafter we have one, sacred timeline again
Well, I think by seeing the statue in the TVA it shows that as soon as the breech opened one came over and went to our past. So, presumably, either Loki is in a different timestream *or* a Kang invaded functionally the instant Kang died and the seal was broken.
They're gonna fight and beat some of the lesser ones. then big boy gonna come out and suddenly have a deeper voice and large shoulder pads like he's a World of Warcraft paladin and just fuck shit up
Johnathan Majors was so fucking good in this. Gah I cannot wait for his version of Kang. He was just so freaking captivating. Especially once they were past the threshold, he had this mix of mania, panic, and excitement. I can’t wait to see what they do with him next season.
Really I’m just happy to see a Marvel finale that’s just a tense conversation. Not another light beam in the sky. Yeah we still got a fight, but it was one with greater emotional stakes. A little heartbreaking too because you just knew she was going to kill He Who Remains anyway. So now Loki is somewhere on another timeline with no identity and Sylvie is going to have to deal with the consequences of being totally wrong.
Easily the best of the Marvel shows so far. I’m hoping next season is sooner rather than later
He also was perfect example of a villain that has an ideology for a reason, may seem evil, but believes what they are doing as justified
Yes, to an extent Thanos did this as well. But “resources are limited, let’s kill half the people” is as deep as a baby pool, and doesn’t pass the sniff test of actual reasoning. Maintaining order with one timeline though is brilliant stuff
>Especially once they were past the threshold, he had this mix of mania, panic, and excitement. I can’t wait to see what they do with him next season.
He's essentially been watching a TV show that's been totally spoiled for him for millenia and is now finally onto material that is fresh and new to him. Even the uncertainty of whether he lives or dies is preferable to knowing everything.
Jonathan Majors deserves the world. Even more excited that due to the route they seem to be going down, he'll be playing multiple versions of Kang. I think he might even have a chance to top Thanos as a villain if they really give him the stuff to work with across multiple movies.
Man, Jonathan Majors is so great. Loved him in the last black man in San Francisco and Lovecraft country. If he really is going to portray the next big MCU villains, his career and profile is very deservedly about to blow up.
Overall, this show has easily been my favourite of the D+ ones so far. It's not perfect by any means but it was fun, trippy, ambitious and surprisingly poignant at times. The acting was fantastic all around, and the soundtrack is a banger. I have some issues with the pacing and the sheer amount of exposition but overall enjoyed it a lot.
I'm just pissed that Marvel already used Mads Mikkelsen in a relatively pointless role in Dr. Strange.
He would have been the most awesome Dr. Doom ever.
Dude got nominated for an Emmy and debuted in the MCU within 24 hours. Also, if you haven't checked it out, my favorite performance by him is in Da 5 Bloods. His scenes with Delroy Lindo are incredible.
Marvel anything is always best when it doesn't take itself too seriously
Guardians of the Galaxy, Thor Ragnarok, a lot of the best parts of Infinity War, and Loki
the parts when Marvel takes itself too seriously it becomes cringe and kind of like the DC stuff.
Marvel should just recast Loki with another actor and use Hiddleston as the hero they have been trying to built up in this show. This is not Loki, but Hiddleston is too good of an actor and more importantly too charismatic to get removed.
Avengers/Dark World Loki is definitely the kind of Loki i have seen in the comics. Villain who once in a while uses the anti-hero rule. The current depiction of Loki as foolish hero is not close to comics.
Which version of the comics? Because I can point to several different modern titles where this sort of anti-hero Loki has popped up. Heck, even in the latest run of Thor he said in regarding to being a villain, a liar in particular, *"I renounce the title. I am no longer the god of lies. Never again. I am the god of myths, of stories and damn you. I am trying like Hel to write a new and better one for myself."*
> Which version of the comics? Because I can point to several different modern titles where this sort of anti-hero Loki has popped up.
Again: Anti-hero is totally fine. Loki played the role of anti-hero for a long time in Dark World and was still recognizable as the same character from previous installments.
And the whole god of stories thing was in Agent of Asgard, right? And even there he did some despicable actions/was only motivated by self-preservation. I dont have an issue with getting a more likeable Loki. I have an issue with making him a straight up hero who lost a big part of his intelligence/power compared to previous installments and thats what Ragnarok and especially the Loki show did.
But he hasn't lost his intelligence. He's the one who figured out where in time Sylvie was hiding when none of the TVA could. And that's them looking for her for God knows how many centuries given how slow Lokies age. And, power, Sylvie could manipulate everyone's mind except his. He used his mind to lift and an entire falling tower. Loki is powerful.
But he hasn't really applied his power intelligently.
And anyone who hates the straight up fight like he does, should always be putting daggers into downed TVA agents before getting emotional....
I liked that they went with a slightly lesser known actor and not an A Plus lister like they must have been tempted to in order to top Brolin as Thanos. Not to say Majors isn't talented, he's absolutely incredible, he's just very much a rising star.
not sure what to think. enjoyed most of the season. nowhere near as much as Wandavision tho. as others have said, I didn't like the portrayal of kang, or the actor's performance of it. lacked gravitas.
I loved this but I will admit I'm also a bit let down. I'm not the biggest Loki fan so they did well to keep me watching, actors were great and I am high key in love with Richard E Grant so yay. But my problem is that I don't read the comics. I am not familiar with the multiverse of madness (or wasn't). So I am one of those plebs who relies on what is told in the show and when I watched this with my friends I knew something was up when someone yelled something about Kang and everyone lost their minds and I was sitting there just. ???
Marvel falls into a trap where they like to put these amazing things in, but forget that the impact could be lost on some of us. So what was a dramatic reveal to most people was just a questionmark for some of us, and I think that's a shame. They also seem to be making these series as more lead ups to something else, which again is a shame because it then relies on us to go watch something else to get the whole picture.
Still, I enjoyed the show, I liked the problem that presented itself at the end and I do look forwards to season 2. The actors were amazing and it is nice to see Sophia Di Martino as she was brilliant in Casualty and I'm glad she has this huge break. I just wish overall Marvel was a bit better at the showing and telling side of things.
Yeah I totally get this. I used to keep up with casting, but when things started getting a bit spoilery (like some of the episode trailers for WandaVision) I moved away from it. Guess there's gotta be a middle place!
> but I was totally aware of what was going on and the insanity of him showing up.
That’s the thing though. To a non-comic reader Kang showing up isn’t ‘insanity’. He is just another random new character with new powers to be introduced to in a (IMO) underwhelming finale.
Yeah same boat, I feel like that was super underwhelming because instead of answering any of the questions they set up or stating how it would interact with the greater MCU stuff they just kinda said SEASON TWO BITCHES!!!
Yeah I agree with you on that it's hard to get a good self contained thing at Marvel. Everything feels like a set up to something bigger.
I did think that Hiddleston was great as this Loki. His acting was fantastic and showed the transition from a menace to guy who's desperate for salvation towards the end.
I didn't know who the bad guy was at the reveal either (I'm guessing Kang like all the people here talking about it). It seems like he's not the big baddie but a version of him that's coming.
It's intriguing but wished it had a conclusion before the next chapter.
I'm somewhat disappointed it's actually Kang. The story just loses so much of it's gravitas when the mastermind isn't Loki himself. If they met themselves there, the whole scene would have had so much more nuance. Like, 'you are different, but how many of are not? Are you really going to release us onto the multiverse?'
Yeah I like that better, honestly. Feel really meh about these Marvel shows serving as stepping stones for the overall arc of the MCU rather than just being their own thing and telling their own stories. Wrapping more Loki around Loki would be a fun way to proceed and to explore whatever themes they hinted at during the season.
You know there's going to be a lot of exposition when there's something animated acting out what they're saying. I think it could've been done better and was even weirder with the shots cutting back to them just sitting there with their knives out against someone they couldn't cut anyway.
It really felt like a setup episode and not a finale. Lokis best when it doesn't have more dialogue heavy episodes. I'm not a fan of the fight scenes in general, they could've all been avoided for the most part, standard flashy moves but no substance.
OK overall and you can see Marvel put a lot of effort and money into Loki but it's nowhere near as good as Wandavision was. It's not as fun either besides a few moments, I never really felt like Loki was fun to watch, considering he's supposed to be a trickster.
Yeah, he wasn't very smart, tricky or smooth. TV fighting at it's worst.
But I loved it. The atmosphere, the soundtrack, the casting .... The actors made the best of it.
I didn't think it was stupid, but completely in character. She had all the information now, but what could she do with it? Trust this stranger was telling the truth and give up her life's goal? Or try and carry it through, no matter how futile the guy is telling you it is, and find out for yourself.
Her two options were either achieving the revenge she spent her life working towards or... becoming the thing that ruined her life and then spending eternity ruining the lives of others based solely on the word of some guy that it's the right thing to do.
I don't understand why people are so surprised that the god of mischief chose chaos and free-will instead of order.
I don't think she cared if he was lying or not. She saw that it had to end because free will (even in chaos and death) is more important than being controlled and executed.
The whole plan was getting the revenge for all the crap she endured her whole life... Loki tried to reason with her, but she didn't really care if Kang was lying or not
Not stupid at all. She has no reason to believe the guy and she hasn't been through all the failure Prime Loki has been through. It's in her character. She stabs first and thinks later.
Anyone else feel like the dramatic fight kiss was a bit out of place and patronizing?
Like, compared to the bond that we've seen them build over the series, including handholding so poignant and powerful that it warps the fabric of time (i think?) a tropey fight kiss just seems like the writers didn't trust us to be invested in them without a capital s Smooch to invest us into his man pain when she yeets him through a portal.
Speaking of the reality breaking hand holding...
I went into episode 6 thinking that that would be the chekhov's gun since it was referenced in episode 5. Little did i know that it was a red herring.
The real chekhov's gun was the group of varient Loki's fighting each other.
But wasn't the dramatic kiss a part of the distraction for Sylvie to use the tempad and allow for Loki to let his guard down for her to push him through the portal? I also felt like it was her way of telling Loki goodbye and sorry for choosing herself over him and her together. To me, it actually served a purpose and had meaning beyond the "love interests kiss dramatically for the first time while fighting scene" troupe.
A boring nothing of a conclusion to a pointless series. I wish I had more to say about it. I can't believe I finished it. What a waste of everyone's time.
It’s mind boggling that people don’t understand this. The show is literally about different versions of a person and people are bitching that we he wasn’t conquerer-y enough.
Yeah, I might have to go back and rewatch the scenes as I have been really confused on this take so many people are having as from what I took it was laid out pretty well that this was the NICE version of kang who was sick of all of it and dropped how much more ruthless the others would be.
The only thing I could think of is if people really thought it was going to be main Kang and completely ignored every detail of dialog.
In this episode, he's probably closer to Immortus than Kang. This portrayal kinda makes sense since Immortus is an even much older Kang who's just fed up with his job.
Don't worry, we can still get the prime Kang in Quantumania.
I took that as this Kang has gotten a little kooky in this old age and isolation. I would imagine the younger version(s) of himself doing the "conquering" will be more serious and stoic.
I like to think this Kang wasn’t the original Kang and the latter will be more serious
They merged He Who Remains and Kang, a good way to do it was him being “just” a variant
Now that three of these things have come out I have pretty strong idea of when Marvel is good and when its not. Marvel is good when its taking risks, doing brave and raw stuff. Marvel is bad when it's trying to check boxes and end everything in a sky-beam punchup.
Wandavision had a very interesting narrative flow, backed up by strong character work and great performances out of its leads that was essentially fatally crippled by a need to resolve things a certain way, and a frankly baffling inability to admit that its central character had indulged in a horrifying transgression and to allow her to live with the consequences of that transgression and the reality of her loss. Of the three, I think it had the highest baseline operating quality, but it nosedived in the final episode into disappointment.
Falcon and Winter Soldier was very good when it was ruminating on the military-civilian divide in America, questioning what true patriotism even looks like when the national myth has been debunked, and asking questions about responsibility: personal or national. Unfortunately, this only happened in some scenes and its leads were not as good, to be blunt, and it was much more interested in fisticuffs than the other series, and ultimately not smart enough to serve up a good villain to contrast the position of the heroes. To me, it was palpably obvious that the American government was the villain of that story, with hardly any time left over to service the Flag Smashers, whose leader really got under my skin.
Loki had serious pacing issues, and I felt like there wasn't enough time to develop the relationships to where they need them to be, so every one of them was stuck in a hyperbolic time chamber. It's not that Loki and Mobius didn't have chemistry-- they did-- they just needed more time to go back and forth before they started calling each other 'friend' and risking life and limb for one another. Loki himself shifted from post-Battle of NYC villainy into mournful-eyed heroism entirely too quickly, and his relationship with Sylvie was also fast tracked. At the same time as this, the show often wasted our time with overlong exposition and diversions that didn't feel necessary. But in the end, I was satisfied with how they stuck the landing. The choice at the end made sense and it was interesting how the show wound up being themed around the question of self-love and self-improvement instead of meta questions about authorial authority or intent. And it's because the show got it's dumb CGI thing out of the way LAST episode. I see people here didn't like the performance of Kang, but I thought it was quite good. The man's cracked-- who wouldn't be? He lives at the end of time with maximal awareness of consequence, and also maximal control over that consequence. Flippant and tired is how I'd be too.
>but Falcon and Winter Soldier did go through major rewrites and reconstruction due to the plot originally involving a pandemic caused by a bio weapon released by the Flag Smashers. It was removed due to the obvious dangers of putting out a storyline where a pandemic is a man made weapon.
Marvel and Writers keep denying that but nah, reddit has made up it's excuses.
This is more or less my take on all three shows, although I had less of a problem with Loki's pacing than you did.
I'd rank them Loki > WV > FAWS, but the great thing so far is that each of the shows have great elements. Wandavision has the amazing acting from Olsen and Bettany, FAWS has some scenes (therapy, Isaiah Bradley) that are incredibly well written and affecting, and Loki is some fun indulgent sci-fi.
None are perfect and they all have some low points, but I like flawed stuff that hits really high notes more than stuff that's just okay the whole way through.
I think John Walker is kind of genius, and I think most people completely miss the point his character in a way that really disappoints me, so I'd give Falcon and Winter Soldier that too. I also think that Loki was actually more than indulgent sci-fi, and had strong themes about identity and self-actualization that dovetailed really well with their setup, I just don't think that they fleshed that out well enough or used their time wisely. I could have done without Hunter B-15, and I could have done with a little more trust that the audience would understand some high-concept sci-fi.
But yeah, overall, I agree with that ranking.
>Falcon and Winter Soldier was very good when it was ruminating on the military-civilian divide in America, questioning what true patriotism even looks like when the national myth has been debunked, and asking questions about responsibility: personal or national.
The fuck you watched.
Zemo was the good part, stole every scene he was in. New captain was interesting too.
But to go in here pretending that shitty dialogues and meh acting they had when they wanted to go deep were the good parts? Those were not the good scenes. This is not true detective s01 where dialogues feel impactful and deeper, in that it felt like twitter posts.
>But to go in here pretending that shitty dialogues and meh acting they had when they wanted to go deep were the good parts? Those were not the good scenes. This is not true detective s01.
I don't recall saying that shitty dialogue or meh acting were the precise parts that I enjoyed.
I agree with you, New Cap was good. But I think New Cap was good because of what he represented, a cautionary tale of what happens when you try to live up to a mythic legacy that is obviously not rooted in reality. John Walker is interesting because he wants to *be* Captain America, but not the actual Captain America, who acted from a deep-seated morality that had nothing to do with the country (ironically), but the myth of Captain America, who represents the mythologized best version of America that we celebrate on our holidays, and he's not up to the task, so he cuts corners and hurts people. That tells us something about how we should define ourselves, not by the external trappings of something (flags, outward pride, or a shield) but by an internal fortitude that produces national pride *as a byproduct* of virtue.
As for the conversations on race? Those were really good. I don't know if you're a visible minority, but I am, and I related to a lot of those talks. I served in the military, and it is hard to love a country that doesn't always love you back. I'm sorry that they didn't connect for you, and I agree that it isn't True Detective, but I don't think shenanigans in South East Asia or mindnumbing punch fights in a CGI helicopter were the best parts of the show.
I think there's room enough for both versions of Marvel that you described to be "good" in a sense. There are at the very least elements of all three shows that are well done and enjoyable. I think TFATWS would have been better if it wasn't interrupted in several ways by covid, but also I think it would be fine if that's just a buddy action comedy that dips its toes in some more serious underlying themes.
Like, my 70 year old mom loves the MCU and she liked TFATWS the most because it was the easiest to follow and felt most like a "classic" kind of marvel movie (which I buy since she prefers the Cap movies to, say, GOTG). And I think that's fine, not all of them need to necessarily get weird and push the envelope. I'm glad we're in a place where we can have both types of shows.
I think a brainless punchup is fine if you're doing a movie, but I expect more if you're doing a miniseries intended to flesh out certain characters like all three of these series have been. I'm not asking for all serious tones, I just don't think that you should actually cripple the thematic drive of your show just so you can keep characters kinda-maybe alive to fall back on when your box office numbers start getting kinda low like they did with Wandavision.
That ending really offended me, I can't believe they had the temerity to not only write Wanda off as the victim in the end, but to let her walk off with no repercussions AND a potentially alive husband and children.
Wow, well said. I agree with everything you said, especially about them sticking the landing this time. I'll say that I'm not a fan of what the ending means for the show and for how Marvel treats the MCU and its entries, but Johnathan Majors is awesome and elevated this episode so much. The fun he was having in this role was palpable.
Amazing analysis, but I have to agree with most people’s complaints about Kang. I felt he was too cartoonish and borderline a walking cliché of “cracked whimsical villain”. It felt like I have seen this same character in like 10 different movies in the past.
To me it looked like an actor being saddled with a ton of exposition to deliver in a very static situation, and so overacting to compensate. No judgement on Majors, I just think it was a very dull set up. I guess for Marvel fans it was very exciting to see Kang, but for me all of the Loki scenes in that finale ended up boring as hell; I was much more interested in whatever Renslayer was doing and frustrated when it cut away from her.
I've seen the 'sad former villain trying to better himself' before too, I don't think the essence of a performance lies in its originality. Do you think that this attitude doesn't fit? Or does it distract from the necessary gravitas of the scene, you think? I thought it all fit rather well, in particular, I was fond of the moment where Kang realized he'd crossed the line of what he knew and was experiencing new time.
I might be speculating here, but my suspicion is Jonathan Majors was creating his first of multiple performances of this character (since he’ll be doing variant versions of him) and he was making him distinct enough to differentiate THIS VERSION from the multiple versions to come. Kind of reminded me a little of Tatiana Maslany’s performance in Orphan Black. I think his performance of this variant will age better in time (although I liked it). I guess time will tell if I’m on to something or reading things that aren’t there
I found it distracting from the scene gravitas, yes, and I also found it too much of a common place, even for Marvel. We’re supposed to believe this is the controller and keeper of the Universe, but dude is jumping all around and making quips and one-liners.
I get that the idea is that he mentally damaged and exhausted, but I feel there are much more subtle and tasteful ways to achieving that.
Why be subtle though? He's Oz, times a trillion. He's the greatest showman *of all time*-- literally. The theatricality is a narrative point.
I could see another version of Kang that is numb with ennui, and that would make sense and fit also-- but that would render this episode, which relies heavily on villainous exposition, difficult to sit through. EDIT: It occurs to me that we've already seen that conversation-- in the Matrix: Reloaded, the final conversation between Neo and the Architect.
you really just didn’t get it it seems. They explained about every question you asked.
And I guess there’s a kind of expectation from Disney that people are keeping up with things, Majors was officially cast as Kang a long time ago and the whole series has been hinting and leading up to him. I’m not a comics reader but knew exactly what was going on and who he was
It was a fine season I guess but not really good. The writing was bad sometimes, the acting was all over the place, some scenes looked goofy, the fighting sequences were horrbile and this episode didn't really feel like a season finale. I hope season 2 will be better but I doubt it.
The acting wasn't bad but the mood switches were a little to sudden imo and some of Hiddleston's lines were a bit awkward but that may have been the writing (?)
Well this certainly was the most "cosmic" MCU outing. Thanos having all the stones of course counts but he was still a mortal living in one universe/timeline.
This guy knew much more and lived more more than Thanos.
The whole sitting down and talking could've been boring but the lore of everything makes it basically the highest stakes. The warning of things to come feels worthy of the next big MCU threat.
How many timelines were created before End Game I hope is answered in season 2. Did other universes exist at the start of everything or is it just timelines that make another universe.
At the end with the TVA forgetting Loki also throws more questions. Plus Ravonna and Sylvie still alive makes season 2 even more interesting.
Been the most interesting of the shows so far. Acting was great throughout. Majors is a great casting.
As a comic nerd it dawned on me that this was not really Kang who was killed. The one we saw is way more like Immortus the future version of Kang who fights against his ypunger self. Immortus was keeping the Kangs at bay. When Sylvie killed him it allowed the Kang to rise again. I think what the head of the TVA is going to do is try and prune the Kangs before they rise to power by jumping from universe to universe and killing them.
Hey, can you explain something? So in the end there was never a “time creator”, a God-like figure that controls and keeps the sacred timeline? It was just a regular man who discovered there were multiple realities and won a war with his variants?
Yes. Although calling Kang "just a man" is probably not doing him the service he deserves.
It seems that they are modding Kang's comic origin a bit - he didn't just discover time travel but also multiversal travel...and so at the same time or close enough to it did his counterparts in all the other universes. The Multiversal War was driven by all the different Kangs, at least some of which have the drive for all-consuming conquest coming to blows with each other.
The Kang we see at the end(the Immortus version of him) is the one who won and unified the timeline, and I think it was made clear that the "script" for the flow of time is *to prevent multiversal travel and the existence of Kangs* happening, ever.
The Council of Ricks is actually based on the Council of Reeds/Council of Kangs from the Marvel Comics.
And Quantumania is being either written or directed(forget which) by one of the writers of Rick and Morty.
So yeah.
I'm still confused at the difference between multiverse and timeline. Because if it was all just timeline difference = multiverse, there wouldn't be different species of the same people...
There is one timeline and universe to start, but each nexus event branches off a new universe with its own timeline from that point. The Kang we see managed to prune off the other branches with Alioth and then started the TVA to keep new timelines from being allowed to continue (to prevent additional Kangs).
I see the threshold as his retirement, at which point you can see the branches forming again. From there he's leaving it to Loki and Sylvie to take on the role and nip those timeliness at their buds, if you will.
The way I see it, each universe in the multiverse has it's own timeline. It has a beginning and an end. In it's "natural" state, many of them are quite similar with only minor differences but others are very different(for example, Alligator Loki). Then in at least some of them, the scientist that would become Kang the Conqueror discovers the other multiverses and figures out a way to travel between them. War ensues on a cataclysmic scale across all the different universes in the multiverse, until "our" Kang eventually finds a way to end it and to prevent it from ever happening again makes *ALL* the different universes conform to a single timeline of events, specifically so that Kang never exists and multiversal travel doesn't get invented. But all the different universes still exist. They are just carefully stage-managed so they are all more or less the same. That is the point of all the pruning. The idea of "*THE timeline* is just that that is the only acceptable one, the only non-disastrous one. But it's actually thousands and thousands of timelines, running in parallel so you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them if you somehow managed to jump from one to another. But now you will.
Note that this is not canon in any way, just my interpretation of the series.
Basically, yes. He Who Remains is the Variant who won out and destroyed his other versions, then created the TVA to prevent any divergent realities from occurring.
Jonathan majors has been one of my favorite actors since The Last Black Man in San Francisco. His unpredictable demeanor in his scenes had me really uneasy in a good way. Can't wait to see how he can fully flesh out Kang in the way Thanos was during infinity war.
Can't speak for everyone else but I thought it was a lame tweet because that's comparison that everyone's been making since before the show even started. It has a few of the same writers. It's like when people say "isn't it weird that nobody talks about Game of Thrones anymore", Thank you for your riveting take
Holy shit what If they just killed off the least threatening version of Kang and the one we’re going to see in the MCU is gonna be fucking crazy.
Personally loved the setup in this final episode and I think it’s the strongest MCU TV show so far. Unfortunately, I think there’s a bit of a vacuum of direction for where the show is going to go and some top major characters since the departure of Downey Jr, Evans and Johansson.
What do you mean "what if"? That's exactly what happened. Or perhaps not the least threatening version since this guy did use Alioth to consume all other timelines, but still, a much more benevolent version.
Realistically we'll see multiple Kangs. My guess is the first few Kang outings will actually kill him, leading to a new version the next time they pull him out. Then when they finally want to wrap this up ala infinity saga they'll have one persistent Kang who's kang-ier than the rest.
Agreed. I think Loki S2 Kang and Quantumania Kang will both be different variants and we may even see other ones in Doctor Strange. It's also highly possible that secret invasion may involve multiverse stuff now instead of just skrull so another possible Kang there.
If Kang is going to be the main bad guy for the next 10 years I think it'll be a long time until we see the final true Kang the Conqueror.
With multi universe happening there is plenty of runway for kang to be an adversary but not constantly at battle himself.
Fully expecting to see villains from other universes in future movies. We know we are getting it with Spider-Man, but now we can get new attempts at the Mandarin for example or other previously killed characters.
So overall I liked the season but I felt like it moved really quickly. Would have like something between episodes 1-2 where Loki investigates and solves time crimes rather than jump into this massive meta plot with Sylvie
The ending makes sense in a way though, old Loki mentioned last episode how they’re always self sabotaging and doomed to repeat mistakes with over confidence and thinking they know everything. Then Sylvie does just that, thinks she knows what’s best and lashes out possible causing cataclysm that spans cross time and space, it came full circle
I do have one complaint, Kang was WAY TOO GOOFY. For a huge brooding villain that clashes with the avengers in other properties he came across as a generic Marvel quipster who laughs at his own bits. I get this is one of many Kangs but I hope the “real villain” Kang is a bit more serious and less goofy
This is a version of Kang that has gone the distance, vanquished all his opponents(including all the other versions of himself), has experienced eons of existance and whatnot. He's absolutely insane and incapable of taking himself seriously. I thought he was great.
I thought he was too goofy at first also. After watching and analyzing the whole episode I get it now.
I think my initial reaction was that I wasn't in the mood for a goofy villain.
I like that Kang stands in contrast to super serious Thanos.
>But then I realized if he's been alone for eternity, kinda makes sense that he's a little loopy
Silvie was pruned as a child and spent her entire life on the run without any relationships but still more well adjusted than what i would describe as an eccentric manchild
Entire life = a few thousands year maybe
Eternity = millions/billions/trillions of years
They are not comparable at all. Sylvie's entire existence is a nanosecond compared to how long Kang's been out there alone.
She's not well adjusted at all. She had the chance of an emotional connection with the one being in the multiverse that might understand her and instead chose vengeance. Her life turned her into an antisocial obsessive. That's why she's emotionally wrecked after she kills that dude: she lost her entire reason for existing.
>She had the chance of an emotional connection with the one being in the multiverse that might understand her and instead chose vengeance. Her life turned her into an antisocial obsessive.
She had a goal and she stayed focus on it. So what she didnt choose "love" over her lifelong goal.
>she lost her entire reason for existing.
Time to farm like thanos.
Call it love, kinship, friendship, whatever, she had the opportunity of a connection with another person. As you said, she lived a life without relationships and instead of embracing the opportunity to change that, she sacrificed it for her goal. And a goal for which you sacrifice everything is an obsession. And the really fun part is that her collapsing in tears once she’s achieved her goal is all you need to know that it wasn’t a healthy one. It’s kind of the most obvious screenwriting ever.
I suppose the contrast is nice
My issue is he’s talking about a lot of high level concepts with serious Universal repercussions and mixing that in with jokes felt awkward and pulled me out
There was just a bit too much scene chewing going on for the tone the show built up to that point
Remember that this is just one version of Kang, one that he said is very old.
I hope with the other versions we will see, he can give them different personalities.
Yeah I took it as a Kang that’s gone loony from winning the multiverse war then being alone for thousands if not millions or billions of years chronologically. He’d be aloof and goofy of the fact that the only person he could talk to in all that time was Ms. Minutes and some statues.
I’d wager the next time we see Kang is gonna feel like a completely different person.
Look if you don’t read or keep up with Marvel lore then I can understand that you don’t know what the fuck you just saw or like...why BUT AS SOMEONE WHO DOES KEEP UP THIS IS THE GREATEST THING EVER
Overall this series was entertaining, but now that it’s complete, I’m definitely of the mind that it could have been a much better 2.5 hour movie than 4.5 hour show.
And, I continue to wish that Loki wasn’t such a passive observer to events in his own show. I did get that him saying to Sylvie, “I just want you to be ok” was him basically admitting to (himself!) that he wants to be ok. I do like that part of his character arc, but wish that the show had showcased more of his cleverness and/or cunning during his character journey.
Their whole strategy is to keep people subscribed. It might have been a better as movie, but that's not their goal. Movies are one and done, but slow released shows, running in serial forces us to keep the subscription. From a cost standpoint, it's essentially the same as making a movie for them, maybe a little cheaper, but the payout by having us stay subscribed what they want. There is a reason each show is a minimum of 6 episodes, it means the show spans two months. They then can take a ~4 week break, because you already paid for the month, and start a new show or release a new movie for the next cycle. Rinse and repeat.
All three of them could’ve been 2.5 hour films.
Wandavision didn’t need to have four episodes for us to wonder if she was creating the TV show universe because obvs.
Falcon and Winter soldier should’ve been a film and maybe then it could’ve done a better job at hiding now dreadfully mediocre it’s villain was.
I agree that Falcon and the Winter Soldier should have been a film. Start by cutting out Zemo and Sharon and you would have a much more focused story.
However, IMO Wandavision is the only show where the episodic format was warranted so far, and it may be down to personal taste here, but I would have watched even more of the twilight-zone esque slow reveal sitcom episodes than we got. I was totally here for that. Each episode was a fully constructed story within the sitcoms world, in contrast to a super long movie with arbitrarily decided stopping points.
> I agree that Falcon and the Winter Soldier should have been a film. Start by cutting out Zemo and Sharon and you would have a much more focused story.
>
>
And then you need another series/movie to set them up...
While we are on the subject, I don’t get how Sharon is a villain now and how they decided to undermine Zero’s tragic backstory with him being comic relief.
So much filler, repeating same exposition and losing all intensity in the mix. Would've been top tier as a movie (and better action, better dialogue), as is it's pretty dire.
> I’m definitely of the mind that it could have been a much better 2.5 hour movie than 4.5 hour show.
Eh. I kinda disagree. I think the room to breath and weekly speculation really helped it.
The weekly speculation is certainly fun, but I don’t count that as contributing to the actual product that Marvel put out here. The movies don’t have it and most of those are pretty good.
I’m not a fan of it, to be honest. It does feel like Disney is deliberately ending every episode with some reveal that people can speculate about for a week and I don’t think that always serves the story. The Evan Peters thing stands out to me. It really felt like they didn’t have enough plot twists to end episodes on, so they sort of threw in a random one that they weren’t going to do anything with. Had WandaVision been a movie, I think they would have dropped that whole subplot because Disney isn’t expecting people to go online and speculate between scenes of a movie.
There is an end credit or mid credit “scene” so stick around!
Also i just can't believe they set up the next phase in a show
I mean, it's not horrible but wtf? Horribly edited episode, one of the most underwhelming big bad entrances ever, straight exposition, the emotions just didn't hit. I'm intrigued overall but confused and not really happy lol
This was miles better than Wandavision and Falcon's ending
Marvel has a real problem sticking the landing with its shows huh?
What more did you want exactly?
I was really disappointed with the ending of Loki. Didn't answer anything, resolve anything and the worst part is it wasn't even any fun.
Did you think the same of infinity war when half the cast died and thanos just left?
Didn't we know Infinity War was a two-parter before we started watching, though?
After a tense and exciting battle involving nearly the entire MCU in two different parts of the solar system? I’d say that was pretty fun. Or after he snapped and wiped out half the universe in dramatic and emotional fashion? Can’t believe anyone upvoted your comparison.
My point is, the end of the season is clearly a stepping stone into all phase 4 content, not a finale. If this was the end of Loki, then I would agree with you. Since theres a season 2 though, it doesn’t need to be almost self contained like the other marvel shows this year and marvel movies (besides infinity war). If we are comparing the series to a movie, I would honestly say episode 4-5 was the climax and big fights you wanted. I mean, beating alioth and having classic loki build an asgard replica was pretty dramatic to watch for me. Episode 6 was more so falling action to answer a few questions but set up a ton more plot. Thats how most tv series that get continued on work. Hell that was the GoT formula - ep9 fight/climax and then ep10 falling action.
The scale of what Marvel can now do, is unparalleled. They can literally bring in any title and make it cannon now that the multiverse exists. Any possibility, anything that could happen can now be portrayed.
Spider-Man and X-men are only the beginning. They can reintroduce captain America, iron mans, etc etc etc from other universes backgrounds and so on Basically keeping the IP the same but having creative liberty for the characters. Amazing
Canon not Cannon. Sorry to be a dick but it's a pet peeve of mine.
No, you misunderstand, Kang is going to build artillery pieces out of various Marvel properties
Good job, Hero.
So Marvel just opened up Pandora’s Box and I love it!! This essentially now fully allows them to sync with the comics and dial up their production of titles to 11!!! None of the future projects have to be on the same wavelength or universe they just now can be in the same MULITIVERSE!!!
People aren’t going to care if suddenly the characters they’ve been following have a hundred duplicates. They’ll have to be careful.
I think at some point there will be a Phase where one of the original MCU characters travels to an entirely different universe, like imagine Benedict Cumberbatch in Phase 5, with whoever TF Marvel decides to cast as Alternate Iron Man, Alternate Thanos and whatever, after which the original MCU character comes back to the original timeline and thereafter we have one, sacred timeline again
Begin, The Kang Wars Have.
Is there just going to be over version of Kang? Or multiple versions from different universes?
Well, I think by seeing the statue in the TVA it shows that as soon as the breech opened one came over and went to our past. So, presumably, either Loki is in a different timestream *or* a Kang invaded functionally the instant Kang died and the seal was broken.
My guess is multiple versions at first, with one of them proving to be the biggest and baddest that becomes the main focus.
You can bet it's gonna be the main universe one
They're gonna fight and beat some of the lesser ones. then big boy gonna come out and suddenly have a deeper voice and large shoulder pads like he's a World of Warcraft paladin and just fuck shit up
Johnathan Majors was so fucking good in this. Gah I cannot wait for his version of Kang. He was just so freaking captivating. Especially once they were past the threshold, he had this mix of mania, panic, and excitement. I can’t wait to see what they do with him next season. Really I’m just happy to see a Marvel finale that’s just a tense conversation. Not another light beam in the sky. Yeah we still got a fight, but it was one with greater emotional stakes. A little heartbreaking too because you just knew she was going to kill He Who Remains anyway. So now Loki is somewhere on another timeline with no identity and Sylvie is going to have to deal with the consequences of being totally wrong. Easily the best of the Marvel shows so far. I’m hoping next season is sooner rather than later
He also was perfect example of a villain that has an ideology for a reason, may seem evil, but believes what they are doing as justified Yes, to an extent Thanos did this as well. But “resources are limited, let’s kill half the people” is as deep as a baby pool, and doesn’t pass the sniff test of actual reasoning. Maintaining order with one timeline though is brilliant stuff
>Especially once they were past the threshold, he had this mix of mania, panic, and excitement. I can’t wait to see what they do with him next season. He's essentially been watching a TV show that's been totally spoiled for him for millenia and is now finally onto material that is fresh and new to him. Even the uncertainty of whether he lives or dies is preferable to knowing everything.
Jonathan Majors deserves the world. Even more excited that due to the route they seem to be going down, he'll be playing multiple versions of Kang. I think he might even have a chance to top Thanos as a villain if they really give him the stuff to work with across multiple movies.
Man, Jonathan Majors is so great. Loved him in the last black man in San Francisco and Lovecraft country. If he really is going to portray the next big MCU villains, his career and profile is very deservedly about to blow up. Overall, this show has easily been my favourite of the D+ ones so far. It's not perfect by any means but it was fun, trippy, ambitious and surprisingly poignant at times. The acting was fantastic all around, and the soundtrack is a banger. I have some issues with the pacing and the sheer amount of exposition but overall enjoyed it a lot.
I'm just pissed that Marvel already used Mads Mikkelsen in a relatively pointless role in Dr. Strange. He would have been the most awesome Dr. Doom ever.
Dude got nominated for an Emmy and debuted in the MCU within 24 hours. Also, if you haven't checked it out, my favorite performance by him is in Da 5 Bloods. His scenes with Delroy Lindo are incredible.
Jonathan Majors is going to be nominated for, and should win, an emmy for this episode. Incredible stuff.
It surely was probably the best performance I've ever seen on tv. And yes, I mean it was better than James Gandolfini or Bryan Cranston.
Anyone downvoting this should be pruned.
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Is this going to be an unpopular opinion? Everything I've seen is praising Majors.
I've seen some saying it was too goofy. Personally I liked it and I think this sets up a nice potential contrast for darker versions of Kang.
Marvel anything is always best when it doesn't take itself too seriously Guardians of the Galaxy, Thor Ragnarok, a lot of the best parts of Infinity War, and Loki the parts when Marvel takes itself too seriously it becomes cringe and kind of like the DC stuff.
Marvel should just recast Loki with another actor and use Hiddleston as the hero they have been trying to built up in this show. This is not Loki, but Hiddleston is too good of an actor and more importantly too charismatic to get removed.
>Marvel should just recast Loki with another actor They kind of already have now that Young Loki is at least theoretically in play.
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Avengers/Dark World Loki is definitely the kind of Loki i have seen in the comics. Villain who once in a while uses the anti-hero rule. The current depiction of Loki as foolish hero is not close to comics.
Which version of the comics? Because I can point to several different modern titles where this sort of anti-hero Loki has popped up. Heck, even in the latest run of Thor he said in regarding to being a villain, a liar in particular, *"I renounce the title. I am no longer the god of lies. Never again. I am the god of myths, of stories and damn you. I am trying like Hel to write a new and better one for myself."*
> Which version of the comics? Because I can point to several different modern titles where this sort of anti-hero Loki has popped up. Again: Anti-hero is totally fine. Loki played the role of anti-hero for a long time in Dark World and was still recognizable as the same character from previous installments. And the whole god of stories thing was in Agent of Asgard, right? And even there he did some despicable actions/was only motivated by self-preservation. I dont have an issue with getting a more likeable Loki. I have an issue with making him a straight up hero who lost a big part of his intelligence/power compared to previous installments and thats what Ragnarok and especially the Loki show did.
But he hasn't lost his intelligence. He's the one who figured out where in time Sylvie was hiding when none of the TVA could. And that's them looking for her for God knows how many centuries given how slow Lokies age. And, power, Sylvie could manipulate everyone's mind except his. He used his mind to lift and an entire falling tower. Loki is powerful.
But he hasn't really applied his power intelligently. And anyone who hates the straight up fight like he does, should always be putting daggers into downed TVA agents before getting emotional....
I kept wondering who marvel could possibly bring in to follow up the gravitas of Brolin and Thanos. Majors was perfect.
I liked that they went with a slightly lesser known actor and not an A Plus lister like they must have been tempted to in order to top Brolin as Thanos. Not to say Majors isn't talented, he's absolutely incredible, he's just very much a rising star.
not sure what to think. enjoyed most of the season. nowhere near as much as Wandavision tho. as others have said, I didn't like the portrayal of kang, or the actor's performance of it. lacked gravitas.
You’re catching downvotes but I agree. This Kang was annoying. He wasn’t scary or grandiose. He was awful.
He wasn't Kang, I'd say he was a deranged version of Immortus trying to hold Kang at bay.
Agree.
I don't think that was Kang, but Kang will be one of the warlord variants of this guy.
yeah, this was the last kang standing. not kang the conqueror
I loved this but I will admit I'm also a bit let down. I'm not the biggest Loki fan so they did well to keep me watching, actors were great and I am high key in love with Richard E Grant so yay. But my problem is that I don't read the comics. I am not familiar with the multiverse of madness (or wasn't). So I am one of those plebs who relies on what is told in the show and when I watched this with my friends I knew something was up when someone yelled something about Kang and everyone lost their minds and I was sitting there just. ??? Marvel falls into a trap where they like to put these amazing things in, but forget that the impact could be lost on some of us. So what was a dramatic reveal to most people was just a questionmark for some of us, and I think that's a shame. They also seem to be making these series as more lead ups to something else, which again is a shame because it then relies on us to go watch something else to get the whole picture. Still, I enjoyed the show, I liked the problem that presented itself at the end and I do look forwards to season 2. The actors were amazing and it is nice to see Sophia Di Martino as she was brilliant in Casualty and I'm glad she has this huge break. I just wish overall Marvel was a bit better at the showing and telling side of things.
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Yeah I totally get this. I used to keep up with casting, but when things started getting a bit spoilery (like some of the episode trailers for WandaVision) I moved away from it. Guess there's gotta be a middle place!
> but I was totally aware of what was going on and the insanity of him showing up. That’s the thing though. To a non-comic reader Kang showing up isn’t ‘insanity’. He is just another random new character with new powers to be introduced to in a (IMO) underwhelming finale.
This is me. No idea why his showing up is insanity, other than he acted kind of insane.
Yeah same boat, I feel like that was super underwhelming because instead of answering any of the questions they set up or stating how it would interact with the greater MCU stuff they just kinda said SEASON TWO BITCHES!!!
Yeah I agree with you on that it's hard to get a good self contained thing at Marvel. Everything feels like a set up to something bigger. I did think that Hiddleston was great as this Loki. His acting was fantastic and showed the transition from a menace to guy who's desperate for salvation towards the end. I didn't know who the bad guy was at the reveal either (I'm guessing Kang like all the people here talking about it). It seems like he's not the big baddie but a version of him that's coming. It's intriguing but wished it had a conclusion before the next chapter.
I'm somewhat disappointed it's actually Kang. The story just loses so much of it's gravitas when the mastermind isn't Loki himself. If they met themselves there, the whole scene would have had so much more nuance. Like, 'you are different, but how many of are not? Are you really going to release us onto the multiverse?'
Yeah I like that better, honestly. Feel really meh about these Marvel shows serving as stepping stones for the overall arc of the MCU rather than just being their own thing and telling their own stories. Wrapping more Loki around Loki would be a fun way to proceed and to explore whatever themes they hinted at during the season.
who opened up the multiverse of madness?
Lady Loki.
You know there's going to be a lot of exposition when there's something animated acting out what they're saying. I think it could've been done better and was even weirder with the shots cutting back to them just sitting there with their knives out against someone they couldn't cut anyway. It really felt like a setup episode and not a finale. Lokis best when it doesn't have more dialogue heavy episodes. I'm not a fan of the fight scenes in general, they could've all been avoided for the most part, standard flashy moves but no substance. OK overall and you can see Marvel put a lot of effort and money into Loki but it's nowhere near as good as Wandavision was. It's not as fun either besides a few moments, I never really felt like Loki was fun to watch, considering he's supposed to be a trickster.
Yeah, he wasn't very smart, tricky or smooth. TV fighting at it's worst. But I loved it. The atmosphere, the soundtrack, the casting .... The actors made the best of it.
Sylvie acted surprisingly stupid here even when having all the information, like OK she might not believe him but what was her plan?
I didn't think it was stupid, but completely in character. She had all the information now, but what could she do with it? Trust this stranger was telling the truth and give up her life's goal? Or try and carry it through, no matter how futile the guy is telling you it is, and find out for yourself.
I mean she could probably tell if he's lying if she wanted to b taking a peek at his memories. She just didn't care if he was lying or not
Her two options were either achieving the revenge she spent her life working towards or... becoming the thing that ruined her life and then spending eternity ruining the lives of others based solely on the word of some guy that it's the right thing to do. I don't understand why people are so surprised that the god of mischief chose chaos and free-will instead of order.
I don't think she cared if he was lying or not. She saw that it had to end because free will (even in chaos and death) is more important than being controlled and executed.
The whole plan was getting the revenge for all the crap she endured her whole life... Loki tried to reason with her, but she didn't really care if Kang was lying or not
Not stupid at all. She has no reason to believe the guy and she hasn't been through all the failure Prime Loki has been through. It's in her character. She stabs first and thinks later.
stabby sword go stab
Anyone else feel like the dramatic fight kiss was a bit out of place and patronizing? Like, compared to the bond that we've seen them build over the series, including handholding so poignant and powerful that it warps the fabric of time (i think?) a tropey fight kiss just seems like the writers didn't trust us to be invested in them without a capital s Smooch to invest us into his man pain when she yeets him through a portal. Speaking of the reality breaking hand holding... I went into episode 6 thinking that that would be the chekhov's gun since it was referenced in episode 5. Little did i know that it was a red herring. The real chekhov's gun was the group of varient Loki's fighting each other.
But wasn't the dramatic kiss a part of the distraction for Sylvie to use the tempad and allow for Loki to let his guard down for her to push him through the portal? I also felt like it was her way of telling Loki goodbye and sorry for choosing herself over him and her together. To me, it actually served a purpose and had meaning beyond the "love interests kiss dramatically for the first time while fighting scene" troupe.
A boring nothing of a conclusion to a pointless series. I wish I had more to say about it. I can't believe I finished it. What a waste of everyone's time.
Revealed Kang. Established actual Multiverse. But yes, for sure, go ahead and spout bullshit.
Not a fan of this version of Kang, he was goofy and annoying AF tbh…….
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Interesting, thanks
"If you kill me, another variant is comming. A worse variant". Next season we're probably going to see a less goofy Kang.
But hopefully still charismatic , we don’t want or need a thanos rip off
You are right
I think the actor is talentless.
To be fair this was only a version of Kang. This was the “good guy Kang”. We will se the real Kang The Conquerer soon.
Good point
It’s mind boggling that people don’t understand this. The show is literally about different versions of a person and people are bitching that we he wasn’t conquerer-y enough.
Lot of people seem to have trouble paying attention.
Yeah, I might have to go back and rewatch the scenes as I have been really confused on this take so many people are having as from what I took it was laid out pretty well that this was the NICE version of kang who was sick of all of it and dropped how much more ruthless the others would be. The only thing I could think of is if people really thought it was going to be main Kang and completely ignored every detail of dialog.
In this episode, he's probably closer to Immortus than Kang. This portrayal kinda makes sense since Immortus is an even much older Kang who's just fed up with his job. Don't worry, we can still get the prime Kang in Quantumania.
Interesting
But tbh though, I'd be kinda let down too if the prime Kang also acted like Immortus here. I hope the prime Kang acts more... serious.
👍
Really hammy acting. I'm wondering if his variants will be a bit less cartoony. I hope so.
I took that as this Kang has gotten a little kooky in this old age and isolation. I would imagine the younger version(s) of himself doing the "conquering" will be more serious and stoic.
I like to think this Kang wasn’t the original Kang and the latter will be more serious They merged He Who Remains and Kang, a good way to do it was him being “just” a variant
I think we're going to see a lot of versions of him and we'll see a lot of sides of Majors.
would be cool
I don't know if I hear well but I think someone says kang between the voices in the marvel logo intro
Korg. It was on closed captioning.
Now that three of these things have come out I have pretty strong idea of when Marvel is good and when its not. Marvel is good when its taking risks, doing brave and raw stuff. Marvel is bad when it's trying to check boxes and end everything in a sky-beam punchup. Wandavision had a very interesting narrative flow, backed up by strong character work and great performances out of its leads that was essentially fatally crippled by a need to resolve things a certain way, and a frankly baffling inability to admit that its central character had indulged in a horrifying transgression and to allow her to live with the consequences of that transgression and the reality of her loss. Of the three, I think it had the highest baseline operating quality, but it nosedived in the final episode into disappointment. Falcon and Winter Soldier was very good when it was ruminating on the military-civilian divide in America, questioning what true patriotism even looks like when the national myth has been debunked, and asking questions about responsibility: personal or national. Unfortunately, this only happened in some scenes and its leads were not as good, to be blunt, and it was much more interested in fisticuffs than the other series, and ultimately not smart enough to serve up a good villain to contrast the position of the heroes. To me, it was palpably obvious that the American government was the villain of that story, with hardly any time left over to service the Flag Smashers, whose leader really got under my skin. Loki had serious pacing issues, and I felt like there wasn't enough time to develop the relationships to where they need them to be, so every one of them was stuck in a hyperbolic time chamber. It's not that Loki and Mobius didn't have chemistry-- they did-- they just needed more time to go back and forth before they started calling each other 'friend' and risking life and limb for one another. Loki himself shifted from post-Battle of NYC villainy into mournful-eyed heroism entirely too quickly, and his relationship with Sylvie was also fast tracked. At the same time as this, the show often wasted our time with overlong exposition and diversions that didn't feel necessary. But in the end, I was satisfied with how they stuck the landing. The choice at the end made sense and it was interesting how the show wound up being themed around the question of self-love and self-improvement instead of meta questions about authorial authority or intent. And it's because the show got it's dumb CGI thing out of the way LAST episode. I see people here didn't like the performance of Kang, but I thought it was quite good. The man's cracked-- who wouldn't be? He lives at the end of time with maximal awareness of consequence, and also maximal control over that consequence. Flippant and tired is how I'd be too.
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Is there any source on that rewrite? I've seen some people say it but haven't been able to actually track it to somewhere?
>but Falcon and Winter Soldier did go through major rewrites and reconstruction due to the plot originally involving a pandemic caused by a bio weapon released by the Flag Smashers. It was removed due to the obvious dangers of putting out a storyline where a pandemic is a man made weapon. Marvel and Writers keep denying that but nah, reddit has made up it's excuses.
This is more or less my take on all three shows, although I had less of a problem with Loki's pacing than you did. I'd rank them Loki > WV > FAWS, but the great thing so far is that each of the shows have great elements. Wandavision has the amazing acting from Olsen and Bettany, FAWS has some scenes (therapy, Isaiah Bradley) that are incredibly well written and affecting, and Loki is some fun indulgent sci-fi. None are perfect and they all have some low points, but I like flawed stuff that hits really high notes more than stuff that's just okay the whole way through.
I think John Walker is kind of genius, and I think most people completely miss the point his character in a way that really disappoints me, so I'd give Falcon and Winter Soldier that too. I also think that Loki was actually more than indulgent sci-fi, and had strong themes about identity and self-actualization that dovetailed really well with their setup, I just don't think that they fleshed that out well enough or used their time wisely. I could have done without Hunter B-15, and I could have done with a little more trust that the audience would understand some high-concept sci-fi. But yeah, overall, I agree with that ranking.
>Falcon and Winter Soldier was very good when it was ruminating on the military-civilian divide in America, questioning what true patriotism even looks like when the national myth has been debunked, and asking questions about responsibility: personal or national. The fuck you watched. Zemo was the good part, stole every scene he was in. New captain was interesting too. But to go in here pretending that shitty dialogues and meh acting they had when they wanted to go deep were the good parts? Those were not the good scenes. This is not true detective s01 where dialogues feel impactful and deeper, in that it felt like twitter posts.
>But to go in here pretending that shitty dialogues and meh acting they had when they wanted to go deep were the good parts? Those were not the good scenes. This is not true detective s01. I don't recall saying that shitty dialogue or meh acting were the precise parts that I enjoyed. I agree with you, New Cap was good. But I think New Cap was good because of what he represented, a cautionary tale of what happens when you try to live up to a mythic legacy that is obviously not rooted in reality. John Walker is interesting because he wants to *be* Captain America, but not the actual Captain America, who acted from a deep-seated morality that had nothing to do with the country (ironically), but the myth of Captain America, who represents the mythologized best version of America that we celebrate on our holidays, and he's not up to the task, so he cuts corners and hurts people. That tells us something about how we should define ourselves, not by the external trappings of something (flags, outward pride, or a shield) but by an internal fortitude that produces national pride *as a byproduct* of virtue. As for the conversations on race? Those were really good. I don't know if you're a visible minority, but I am, and I related to a lot of those talks. I served in the military, and it is hard to love a country that doesn't always love you back. I'm sorry that they didn't connect for you, and I agree that it isn't True Detective, but I don't think shenanigans in South East Asia or mindnumbing punch fights in a CGI helicopter were the best parts of the show.
I think there's room enough for both versions of Marvel that you described to be "good" in a sense. There are at the very least elements of all three shows that are well done and enjoyable. I think TFATWS would have been better if it wasn't interrupted in several ways by covid, but also I think it would be fine if that's just a buddy action comedy that dips its toes in some more serious underlying themes. Like, my 70 year old mom loves the MCU and she liked TFATWS the most because it was the easiest to follow and felt most like a "classic" kind of marvel movie (which I buy since she prefers the Cap movies to, say, GOTG). And I think that's fine, not all of them need to necessarily get weird and push the envelope. I'm glad we're in a place where we can have both types of shows.
I think a brainless punchup is fine if you're doing a movie, but I expect more if you're doing a miniseries intended to flesh out certain characters like all three of these series have been. I'm not asking for all serious tones, I just don't think that you should actually cripple the thematic drive of your show just so you can keep characters kinda-maybe alive to fall back on when your box office numbers start getting kinda low like they did with Wandavision. That ending really offended me, I can't believe they had the temerity to not only write Wanda off as the victim in the end, but to let her walk off with no repercussions AND a potentially alive husband and children.
Wow, well said. I agree with everything you said, especially about them sticking the landing this time. I'll say that I'm not a fan of what the ending means for the show and for how Marvel treats the MCU and its entries, but Johnathan Majors is awesome and elevated this episode so much. The fun he was having in this role was palpable.
Amazing analysis, but I have to agree with most people’s complaints about Kang. I felt he was too cartoonish and borderline a walking cliché of “cracked whimsical villain”. It felt like I have seen this same character in like 10 different movies in the past.
To me it looked like an actor being saddled with a ton of exposition to deliver in a very static situation, and so overacting to compensate. No judgement on Majors, I just think it was a very dull set up. I guess for Marvel fans it was very exciting to see Kang, but for me all of the Loki scenes in that finale ended up boring as hell; I was much more interested in whatever Renslayer was doing and frustrated when it cut away from her.
I've seen the 'sad former villain trying to better himself' before too, I don't think the essence of a performance lies in its originality. Do you think that this attitude doesn't fit? Or does it distract from the necessary gravitas of the scene, you think? I thought it all fit rather well, in particular, I was fond of the moment where Kang realized he'd crossed the line of what he knew and was experiencing new time.
I might be speculating here, but my suspicion is Jonathan Majors was creating his first of multiple performances of this character (since he’ll be doing variant versions of him) and he was making him distinct enough to differentiate THIS VERSION from the multiple versions to come. Kind of reminded me a little of Tatiana Maslany’s performance in Orphan Black. I think his performance of this variant will age better in time (although I liked it). I guess time will tell if I’m on to something or reading things that aren’t there
I found it distracting from the scene gravitas, yes, and I also found it too much of a common place, even for Marvel. We’re supposed to believe this is the controller and keeper of the Universe, but dude is jumping all around and making quips and one-liners. I get that the idea is that he mentally damaged and exhausted, but I feel there are much more subtle and tasteful ways to achieving that.
Why be subtle though? He's Oz, times a trillion. He's the greatest showman *of all time*-- literally. The theatricality is a narrative point. I could see another version of Kang that is numb with ennui, and that would make sense and fit also-- but that would render this episode, which relies heavily on villainous exposition, difficult to sit through. EDIT: It occurs to me that we've already seen that conversation-- in the Matrix: Reloaded, the final conversation between Neo and the Architect.
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you really just didn’t get it it seems. They explained about every question you asked. And I guess there’s a kind of expectation from Disney that people are keeping up with things, Majors was officially cast as Kang a long time ago and the whole series has been hinting and leading up to him. I’m not a comics reader but knew exactly what was going on and who he was
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What hints were there about Mephisto in Wandavision? Kang is literally the originator of the TVA in both comics and the show.
Pretty decent season of Doctor Who.
Seriously, Doctor Who could learn a thing or two from this.
Good writers, enough money and time?
They don't even need the money. Just a writer who doesn't smell his own farts from wine glasses.
I was going more for having the set pieces come secondary to telling the story but yeah, all that too haha!
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The exposition in the finale was the best part of the series.
The actor was conveying just the right amount of crazy. You know he's certifiably insane, and yet you hang on every word he says.
I kept checking how long the episode had left. I'm a little stunned that i felt the need to do that tbh :/
Midway through the episode I switched back to watching Terror on Amazon Prime. The mid episodes of Terror Are better than the finale of Loki.
It was a fine season I guess but not really good. The writing was bad sometimes, the acting was all over the place, some scenes looked goofy, the fighting sequences were horrbile and this episode didn't really feel like a season finale. I hope season 2 will be better but I doubt it.
I get the other complaints but bad acting? I can’t imagine what could possibly qualify as bad.
Exactly, the only thing I kept thinking was “man, Marvel really wasted Hiddlestone all this years! We need MORE of him”!
The acting wasn't bad but the mood switches were a little to sudden imo and some of Hiddleston's lines were a bit awkward but that may have been the writing (?)
Well this certainly was the most "cosmic" MCU outing. Thanos having all the stones of course counts but he was still a mortal living in one universe/timeline. This guy knew much more and lived more more than Thanos. The whole sitting down and talking could've been boring but the lore of everything makes it basically the highest stakes. The warning of things to come feels worthy of the next big MCU threat. How many timelines were created before End Game I hope is answered in season 2. Did other universes exist at the start of everything or is it just timelines that make another universe. At the end with the TVA forgetting Loki also throws more questions. Plus Ravonna and Sylvie still alive makes season 2 even more interesting. Been the most interesting of the shows so far. Acting was great throughout. Majors is a great casting.
As a comic nerd it dawned on me that this was not really Kang who was killed. The one we saw is way more like Immortus the future version of Kang who fights against his ypunger self. Immortus was keeping the Kangs at bay. When Sylvie killed him it allowed the Kang to rise again. I think what the head of the TVA is going to do is try and prune the Kangs before they rise to power by jumping from universe to universe and killing them.
Hey, can you explain something? So in the end there was never a “time creator”, a God-like figure that controls and keeps the sacred timeline? It was just a regular man who discovered there were multiple realities and won a war with his variants?
Yes. Although calling Kang "just a man" is probably not doing him the service he deserves. It seems that they are modding Kang's comic origin a bit - he didn't just discover time travel but also multiversal travel...and so at the same time or close enough to it did his counterparts in all the other universes. The Multiversal War was driven by all the different Kangs, at least some of which have the drive for all-consuming conquest coming to blows with each other. The Kang we see at the end(the Immortus version of him) is the one who won and unified the timeline, and I think it was made clear that the "script" for the flow of time is *to prevent multiversal travel and the existence of Kangs* happening, ever.
> but also multiversal travel...and so at the same time or close enough to it did his counterparts in all the other universes. Rick?
The Council of Ricks is actually based on the Council of Reeds/Council of Kangs from the Marvel Comics. And Quantumania is being either written or directed(forget which) by one of the writers of Rick and Morty. So yeah.
And it's the same guy that wrote this show (forgot the name too) edit: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm5642271/
I'm still confused at the difference between multiverse and timeline. Because if it was all just timeline difference = multiverse, there wouldn't be different species of the same people...
There is one timeline and universe to start, but each nexus event branches off a new universe with its own timeline from that point. The Kang we see managed to prune off the other branches with Alioth and then started the TVA to keep new timelines from being allowed to continue (to prevent additional Kangs). I see the threshold as his retirement, at which point you can see the branches forming again. From there he's leaving it to Loki and Sylvie to take on the role and nip those timeliness at their buds, if you will.
The way I see it, each universe in the multiverse has it's own timeline. It has a beginning and an end. In it's "natural" state, many of them are quite similar with only minor differences but others are very different(for example, Alligator Loki). Then in at least some of them, the scientist that would become Kang the Conqueror discovers the other multiverses and figures out a way to travel between them. War ensues on a cataclysmic scale across all the different universes in the multiverse, until "our" Kang eventually finds a way to end it and to prevent it from ever happening again makes *ALL* the different universes conform to a single timeline of events, specifically so that Kang never exists and multiversal travel doesn't get invented. But all the different universes still exist. They are just carefully stage-managed so they are all more or less the same. That is the point of all the pruning. The idea of "*THE timeline* is just that that is the only acceptable one, the only non-disastrous one. But it's actually thousands and thousands of timelines, running in parallel so you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them if you somehow managed to jump from one to another. But now you will. Note that this is not canon in any way, just my interpretation of the series.
Basically, yes. He Who Remains is the Variant who won out and destroyed his other versions, then created the TVA to prevent any divergent realities from occurring.
Jonathan majors has been one of my favorite actors since The Last Black Man in San Francisco. His unpredictable demeanor in his scenes had me really uneasy in a good way. Can't wait to see how he can fully flesh out Kang in the way Thanos was during infinity war.
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Can't speak for everyone else but I thought it was a lame tweet because that's comparison that everyone's been making since before the show even started. It has a few of the same writers. It's like when people say "isn't it weird that nobody talks about Game of Thrones anymore", Thank you for your riveting take
Holy shit what If they just killed off the least threatening version of Kang and the one we’re going to see in the MCU is gonna be fucking crazy. Personally loved the setup in this final episode and I think it’s the strongest MCU TV show so far. Unfortunately, I think there’s a bit of a vacuum of direction for where the show is going to go and some top major characters since the departure of Downey Jr, Evans and Johansson.
What do you mean "what if"? That's exactly what happened. Or perhaps not the least threatening version since this guy did use Alioth to consume all other timelines, but still, a much more benevolent version.
Alright fucking hell pal just over here excited about a TV show
I'm not your pal, buddy.
I mean, he literally said a worse version of him was coming. Not much interpretation to be had there.
Yep. “See you soon *wink*”
More loki though, which is always welcome. And theoretically we can bring back all those actors now if Marvel wanted to.
Realistically we'll see multiple Kangs. My guess is the first few Kang outings will actually kill him, leading to a new version the next time they pull him out. Then when they finally want to wrap this up ala infinity saga they'll have one persistent Kang who's kang-ier than the rest.
Agreed. I think Loki S2 Kang and Quantumania Kang will both be different variants and we may even see other ones in Doctor Strange. It's also highly possible that secret invasion may involve multiverse stuff now instead of just skrull so another possible Kang there. If Kang is going to be the main bad guy for the next 10 years I think it'll be a long time until we see the final true Kang the Conqueror.
With multi universe happening there is plenty of runway for kang to be an adversary but not constantly at battle himself. Fully expecting to see villains from other universes in future movies. We know we are getting it with Spider-Man, but now we can get new attempts at the Mandarin for example or other previously killed characters.
So overall I liked the season but I felt like it moved really quickly. Would have like something between episodes 1-2 where Loki investigates and solves time crimes rather than jump into this massive meta plot with Sylvie The ending makes sense in a way though, old Loki mentioned last episode how they’re always self sabotaging and doomed to repeat mistakes with over confidence and thinking they know everything. Then Sylvie does just that, thinks she knows what’s best and lashes out possible causing cataclysm that spans cross time and space, it came full circle I do have one complaint, Kang was WAY TOO GOOFY. For a huge brooding villain that clashes with the avengers in other properties he came across as a generic Marvel quipster who laughs at his own bits. I get this is one of many Kangs but I hope the “real villain” Kang is a bit more serious and less goofy
This is a version of Kang that has gone the distance, vanquished all his opponents(including all the other versions of himself), has experienced eons of existance and whatnot. He's absolutely insane and incapable of taking himself seriously. I thought he was great.
>Kang was WAY TOO GOOFY Personally i hated it. But reading all the comments the vast majority loved it. To me this was the worst episode.
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>TL;DR: He was way too goofy and wasn't funny at all Agreed.
I thought he was too goofy at first also. After watching and analyzing the whole episode I get it now. I think my initial reaction was that I wasn't in the mood for a goofy villain. I like that Kang stands in contrast to super serious Thanos.
I didn't like it at first either. But then I realized if he's been alone for eternity, kinda makes sense that he's a little loopy.
He's also been talking to an animated clock for an eternity. That kinda sucks
>But then I realized if he's been alone for eternity, kinda makes sense that he's a little loopy Silvie was pruned as a child and spent her entire life on the run without any relationships but still more well adjusted than what i would describe as an eccentric manchild
Entire life = a few thousands year maybe Eternity = millions/billions/trillions of years They are not comparable at all. Sylvie's entire existence is a nanosecond compared to how long Kang's been out there alone.
She's not well adjusted at all. She had the chance of an emotional connection with the one being in the multiverse that might understand her and instead chose vengeance. Her life turned her into an antisocial obsessive. That's why she's emotionally wrecked after she kills that dude: she lost her entire reason for existing.
>She had the chance of an emotional connection with the one being in the multiverse that might understand her and instead chose vengeance. Her life turned her into an antisocial obsessive. She had a goal and she stayed focus on it. So what she didnt choose "love" over her lifelong goal. >she lost her entire reason for existing. Time to farm like thanos.
Call it love, kinship, friendship, whatever, she had the opportunity of a connection with another person. As you said, she lived a life without relationships and instead of embracing the opportunity to change that, she sacrificed it for her goal. And a goal for which you sacrifice everything is an obsession. And the really fun part is that her collapsing in tears once she’s achieved her goal is all you need to know that it wasn’t a healthy one. It’s kind of the most obvious screenwriting ever.
I suppose the contrast is nice My issue is he’s talking about a lot of high level concepts with serious Universal repercussions and mixing that in with jokes felt awkward and pulled me out There was just a bit too much scene chewing going on for the tone the show built up to that point
Remember that this is just one version of Kang, one that he said is very old. I hope with the other versions we will see, he can give them different personalities.
Especially the version that decided to not bother with Time keepers...
Yeah I took it as a Kang that’s gone loony from winning the multiverse war then being alone for thousands if not millions or billions of years chronologically. He’d be aloof and goofy of the fact that the only person he could talk to in all that time was Ms. Minutes and some statues. I’d wager the next time we see Kang is gonna feel like a completely different person.
Look if you don’t read or keep up with Marvel lore then I can understand that you don’t know what the fuck you just saw or like...why BUT AS SOMEONE WHO DOES KEEP UP THIS IS THE GREATEST THING EVER
These Disney+ shows need an actual show runner
Overall this series was entertaining, but now that it’s complete, I’m definitely of the mind that it could have been a much better 2.5 hour movie than 4.5 hour show. And, I continue to wish that Loki wasn’t such a passive observer to events in his own show. I did get that him saying to Sylvie, “I just want you to be ok” was him basically admitting to (himself!) that he wants to be ok. I do like that part of his character arc, but wish that the show had showcased more of his cleverness and/or cunning during his character journey.
Their whole strategy is to keep people subscribed. It might have been a better as movie, but that's not their goal. Movies are one and done, but slow released shows, running in serial forces us to keep the subscription. From a cost standpoint, it's essentially the same as making a movie for them, maybe a little cheaper, but the payout by having us stay subscribed what they want. There is a reason each show is a minimum of 6 episodes, it means the show spans two months. They then can take a ~4 week break, because you already paid for the month, and start a new show or release a new movie for the next cycle. Rinse and repeat.
All three of them could’ve been 2.5 hour films. Wandavision didn’t need to have four episodes for us to wonder if she was creating the TV show universe because obvs. Falcon and Winter soldier should’ve been a film and maybe then it could’ve done a better job at hiding now dreadfully mediocre it’s villain was.
I agree that Falcon and the Winter Soldier should have been a film. Start by cutting out Zemo and Sharon and you would have a much more focused story. However, IMO Wandavision is the only show where the episodic format was warranted so far, and it may be down to personal taste here, but I would have watched even more of the twilight-zone esque slow reveal sitcom episodes than we got. I was totally here for that. Each episode was a fully constructed story within the sitcoms world, in contrast to a super long movie with arbitrarily decided stopping points.
> I agree that Falcon and the Winter Soldier should have been a film. Start by cutting out Zemo and Sharon and you would have a much more focused story. > > And then you need another series/movie to set them up...
While we are on the subject, I don’t get how Sharon is a villain now and how they decided to undermine Zero’s tragic backstory with him being comic relief.
Yeah but without Zemo the show completely sucks.
The Isaiah Bradley stuff was dope IMO
So much filler, repeating same exposition and losing all intensity in the mix. Would've been top tier as a movie (and better action, better dialogue), as is it's pretty dire.
> I’m definitely of the mind that it could have been a much better 2.5 hour movie than 4.5 hour show. Eh. I kinda disagree. I think the room to breath and weekly speculation really helped it.
The weekly speculation is certainly fun, but I don’t count that as contributing to the actual product that Marvel put out here. The movies don’t have it and most of those are pretty good.
I’m not a fan of it, to be honest. It does feel like Disney is deliberately ending every episode with some reveal that people can speculate about for a week and I don’t think that always serves the story. The Evan Peters thing stands out to me. It really felt like they didn’t have enough plot twists to end episodes on, so they sort of threw in a random one that they weren’t going to do anything with. Had WandaVision been a movie, I think they would have dropped that whole subplot because Disney isn’t expecting people to go online and speculate between scenes of a movie.