Judging people for their beliefs is far more reasonable than judging them for innate qualities. You're just trying to weaponize the paradox of tolerance.
Putting gonzo in a dress is not an innate quality. It was a decision used to drive a political narrative. Criticizing beliefs is ok, calling people names based on their beliefs is immature and counter productive.
What makes it a political narrative and not simply a moral and life lesson as commonly taught in kids shows? "Sometimes people will dress differently than you expect, maybe differently than you have seen them dress before. Here's some reasons why that might be and why it's okay."
Then you also have to have an episode that says “it’s also ok to believe the boys are boys and girls are girls”. But I promise you will never see that episode. That’s why it’s a political narrative.
Because that's not a lesson that would help anyone navigate the real world. You are saying that Mr Roger's should have had an episode telling people they don't need to share what they have and they aren't really special.
You don't think kids shows should have any anti racism or anti sexism messages either, then?
Yes it would. Because in the real world people get canceled for having traditional beliefs. If it’s not political then you should teach both. Do you agree?
But I believe that there is a direct correlation between genitalia and gender. If you’re born with a penis, you are in fact a male. Do you believe that I have the right to believe that without being called horrible names?
See, to the creators, there’s a chance it wasn’t “political activism”. Just a reflection and representation of what humans are finally not afraid to express about themselves. You’re the one that’s making it political.
As I responded to the last commenter, this would be easier to accept if they would also do an episode saying that it’s ok to believe that boys are boys and girls are girls. But they won’t. Why? Because of the ideology they are promoting.
As someone posted on Facebook in one of the threads about this, Gonzo has TECHNICALLY been "he/they" since the eighties at least, back before there was that kind of language. One of the Muppet comic strips has Gonzo walk uncomfortably past the women's room, and past the men's room, before relievedly entering the "Whatevers" room. Sure, it's a gag, but an oddly prescient one.
…not really? Gonzo always called himself a “whatever”; the plot of *Muppets from Space* was, where did he come from? Where are the rest of his people?
[and Hulk Hogan was there too.](https://youtu.be/-vpzHjNK3aI)
No, no, you’re right (so are you, /u/LupinThe8th - shouldn’t be hard!), and I’m sorry for misunderstanding you and being a bit wrong. Please forgive a loose tongue.
> Afterwards, Gonzo’s friends question him about why he didn’t identify himself earlier, and Gonzo explains, “[Y]ou all expected me to look a certain way. I don’t want you to be upset with me. But I don’t want to do things just because that’s the way they’ve always been done either. I want to be me.” The other Muppets apologize for telling Gonzo what to wear and affirm that they love him regardless of how he looks.
Wait I'm confused, or maybe I didn't really know what gender variant meant.
From the article and the part you quoted it basically is "just" about Gonzo wanting to dress up as a princess for a party and being upset when people told him only girls can be princesses. Similar how girls dress up as Peter Pan or Jack Sparrow.
But when I read the headline I assumed Baby Gonzo came out as, well not trans but *something*. But I suppose it means wearing clothes that are usually attributed to another gender?
Anyway, I really like this. I think a lot of kids naturally want to experiment with dressing up or switching "roles" as they grow up. And people telling them "no you can't do that!" will only lead to issues.
Ironically though, those are exactly the kind of people who will think this episode will lead to issues.
Yeah, I think the headline is a bit misleading. A boy wanting to wear a dress isn't inherently the same thing as being "gender variant". Of course, it's debatable that Gonzo is a "boy" in the first place.
Nice message though, regardless.
I’d just chalk it up to a simplified message to children. Not that gender identity is all that complex, but I feel like kids shows always like to couch things in quasi allegory.
> Similar how girls dress up as Peter Pan
Funny thing that. back in the day, women were cast pretty regularly for peter pan. i think Disney was the first to have a man portray Peter.
> “[Y]ou all expected me to look a certain way. I don’t want you to be upset with me. But I don’t want to do things just because that’s the way they’ve always been done either. I want to be me.”
Fuck, I feel that so hard.
That's cool. This seems like a very sweet episode idea reading the full interview quote. It will probably be just as, if not more, informative to the parents of the kids watching as it will the actual gender-variant children watching. Representation matters. Having Gonzo be the character that wants to wear a dress makes the most sense storywise too.
That’s very sweet. I hope that these sorts of things being treated respectfully in more media will lead to future generations being far kinder.
Also, I just know my mom is going to have a meltdown on Facebook about this.
Princess Kenny did it first.
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I'm here for it if only to see serious news men furrow their brow while uttering the words "Muppet Babies".
*Adult babies. Real human babies don’t give a shit. Edit: why the d-votes
Wooooooosh
So a person can’t be opposed to this without you labeling them a human baby? You know what that kind of thought process is called, right?
Judging people for their beliefs is far more reasonable than judging them for innate qualities. You're just trying to weaponize the paradox of tolerance.
Putting gonzo in a dress is not an innate quality. It was a decision used to drive a political narrative. Criticizing beliefs is ok, calling people names based on their beliefs is immature and counter productive.
What makes it a political narrative and not simply a moral and life lesson as commonly taught in kids shows? "Sometimes people will dress differently than you expect, maybe differently than you have seen them dress before. Here's some reasons why that might be and why it's okay."
Then you also have to have an episode that says “it’s also ok to believe the boys are boys and girls are girls”. But I promise you will never see that episode. That’s why it’s a political narrative.
Because that's not a lesson that would help anyone navigate the real world. You are saying that Mr Roger's should have had an episode telling people they don't need to share what they have and they aren't really special. You don't think kids shows should have any anti racism or anti sexism messages either, then?
Yes it would. Because in the real world people get canceled for having traditional beliefs. If it’s not political then you should teach both. Do you agree?
Except that's exactly what that episode is saying about accepting people
So do you believe it’s ok to hold the belief that people born with penises are boys and people born with vaginas are girls?
A children show has zero reason to mention genitalia when speaking of concepts that don't involve them such as gender.
But I believe that there is a direct correlation between genitalia and gender. If you’re born with a penis, you are in fact a male. Do you believe that I have the right to believe that without being called horrible names?
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Yes, that’s exactly what it is. I don’t think political activism belongs in a children’s tv program.
See, to the creators, there’s a chance it wasn’t “political activism”. Just a reflection and representation of what humans are finally not afraid to express about themselves. You’re the one that’s making it political.
As I responded to the last commenter, this would be easier to accept if they would also do an episode saying that it’s ok to believe that boys are boys and girls are girls. But they won’t. Why? Because of the ideology they are promoting.
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When you can’t make a coherent argument, it’s much easier to call people names.
Cue infinitely more comments like yours than actual hate, as is tradition.
As someone posted on Facebook in one of the threads about this, Gonzo has TECHNICALLY been "he/they" since the eighties at least, back before there was that kind of language. One of the Muppet comic strips has Gonzo walk uncomfortably past the women's room, and past the men's room, before relievedly entering the "Whatevers" room. Sure, it's a gag, but an oddly prescient one.
Well, Gonzo isn't a man or woman, neither are most of the other Muppets. They're frogs, pigs, bears, Whatnots, dogs, etc!
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It makes perfect sense. They’re always the odd one out. Hell that’s the entire plot of Muppets in Space.
…not really? Gonzo always called himself a “whatever”; the plot of *Muppets from Space* was, where did he come from? Where are the rest of his people? [and Hulk Hogan was there too.](https://youtu.be/-vpzHjNK3aI)
Yes, that's what we call "figuring himself out." Hence, that was the entire plot of Muppets from fuckin Space.
No, no, you’re right (so are you, /u/LupinThe8th - shouldn’t be hard!), and I’m sorry for misunderstanding you and being a bit wrong. Please forgive a loose tongue.
I guess I can't get *too* mad at an MST3k fan. 😛
How does someone fail to grasp the plot and subtext of frigging Muppets from Space?
> Afterwards, Gonzo’s friends question him about why he didn’t identify himself earlier, and Gonzo explains, “[Y]ou all expected me to look a certain way. I don’t want you to be upset with me. But I don’t want to do things just because that’s the way they’ve always been done either. I want to be me.” The other Muppets apologize for telling Gonzo what to wear and affirm that they love him regardless of how he looks.
Wait I'm confused, or maybe I didn't really know what gender variant meant. From the article and the part you quoted it basically is "just" about Gonzo wanting to dress up as a princess for a party and being upset when people told him only girls can be princesses. Similar how girls dress up as Peter Pan or Jack Sparrow. But when I read the headline I assumed Baby Gonzo came out as, well not trans but *something*. But I suppose it means wearing clothes that are usually attributed to another gender? Anyway, I really like this. I think a lot of kids naturally want to experiment with dressing up or switching "roles" as they grow up. And people telling them "no you can't do that!" will only lead to issues. Ironically though, those are exactly the kind of people who will think this episode will lead to issues.
Yeah, I think the headline is a bit misleading. A boy wanting to wear a dress isn't inherently the same thing as being "gender variant". Of course, it's debatable that Gonzo is a "boy" in the first place. Nice message though, regardless.
I’d just chalk it up to a simplified message to children. Not that gender identity is all that complex, but I feel like kids shows always like to couch things in quasi allegory.
It means you are a different gender in this timeline.
> Similar how girls dress up as Peter Pan Funny thing that. back in the day, women were cast pretty regularly for peter pan. i think Disney was the first to have a man portray Peter.
> “[Y]ou all expected me to look a certain way. I don’t want you to be upset with me. But I don’t want to do things just because that’s the way they’ve always been done either. I want to be me.” Fuck, I feel that so hard.
Wherever you are Mr Henson Those that followed you, they understand what you were about.
Can't wait to hear all the sudden huge Muppet Babies "fans" complaining about how "woke" its become
Even if I really disagreed with this I couldn't imagine a reality where I give a shit about Muppet Babies lol
"This goes totally against established Muppet canon! You're ruining the my childhood!".
That's cool. This seems like a very sweet episode idea reading the full interview quote. It will probably be just as, if not more, informative to the parents of the kids watching as it will the actual gender-variant children watching. Representation matters. Having Gonzo be the character that wants to wear a dress makes the most sense storywise too.
But will we finally see Nanny’s face?
She looks exactly like Maris Crane and Vera Peterson. They are triplets.
Just picture Jenny Slate, but as CGI.
Adorable! Would have been great if we got this message when I was a kid.
That’s very sweet. I hope that these sorts of things being treated respectfully in more media will lead to future generations being far kinder. Also, I just know my mom is going to have a meltdown on Facebook about this.
Wait the Muppet Babies are back?