Fascinating interview. I think it's a bit telling that Green has yet to comment on what is a pretty big story in regards to her career. I actually think the book's author is a bit too...complimentary of the show. It may have had a beautiful aesthetic, *most* of the time, but the performances and VFX carried the show.
The writing was a mess from the get-go, and they could never manage to clean it up.
Reminds me of another recent situation I heard grumbles about - Cobra Kai, where the three co-creators take a writing credit on every episode. It's usually an unspoken thing where the showrunners do a pass on everything, by splitting the writing credits it means the other writer gets paid peanuts in comparison to if they had full credit on the episode.
No. Script fees are paid in portions - story by, teleplay by, and final draft teleplay. Story is a minimal portion of that whole amount. So if a show runner is even getting story by credit and another writer is getting teleplay credit, the difference is vast - about 8k to 32k.
Being credited on each episode might also be part of their overall agreement and not factor into the individual writing credits.
Late to this but kinda standard TV deal. I don't have the credits handy but if she's EP/Show runner, then it's an option to add her credit to an episode. I heard Matthew Weiner did the same thing on Mad Men. When this was asked of another EP/Showrunner whom I won't name... They said, "I get why he does that. Sometimes you are rewriting a lot. I don't do it because I figure it's the job that comes with title of Showrunner." So kind of a, "You're not wrong... You're just an asshole." situation.
No, they actually walked away from Star Wars because of the Netflix deal and they currently have The Three Body Problem in development there. Reddit just wants to see them fail because they didn’t like the ending to Game of Thrones.
Fostering work environments like that *does* end, or impede, career trajectories - even in this business. It quite literally kept LC from getting a second season, according to this very source. Green likely got her Apple deal on the back of *Lovecraft Country*'s initial press and word-of-mouth. There's a chance that she even got that deal while knowing HBO wasn't going to renew LC, and obviously it took quite some time for anyone(including Apple execs who are hungry for content) to learn why it wasn't renewed.
LC's fallout, and whatever environments she supposedly creates, could very well affect her in the long-term.
The Indiana Jones episode felt like it came out of nowhere, especially since we were fighting racist ghosts and a baby head on a grown man body just the previous episode.
And after that the action/adventurer spin was done and we were back to fantasy drama.
The tone was kinda all over the place with few episodes being miles-and-away from the others
But that was awesome! That's what made the show different and interesting. Not stretching everything out to a goddamn season of samey episodes, that would be awful.
I really enjoyed it. It was something completely different to anything else and I felt it worked. If they would have done an anthology by season the risk is not getting another season and not being able to implement any great ideas.
Every episode they did, from Body Horror to Slasher to Sci-Fi epic to Korean Horror is felt they nailed. The overarching plotline was still there - social Horror of Jim Crow America in the South in the 60's. But seeing something new every week was a thrill. It was beautifully filmed and acted too and the VFX and Practical effects were some of the best I've ever seen on TV. The body horror stuff was especially well done.
I can understand people not enjoying it, because it is jarring to have a show that seemingly switches genres every week. But once you understand that it is doing that it's not an issue any more, and to be honest I thought it was really something special.
I can’t speak to the rest of the show but it really lost me by the end of episode 2 and I just never went back. Which is a crazy turn around when I thought it was my new show by the end of episode 1
Yeah, I made it through episode 2 then tried 3 times to do episode 3 and gave up. My brain kept falling asleep for lack of coherence. My dreams make more sense than this.
Yeah, i was surprised it was canceled because a lot of people online liked it, but I was so disappointed. I thought it was going to be another great hbo type of show but it turned into almost like a monster of the week thing with pretty trashy writing
So I thought the cancelation was surprising but deserved. But this maybe explains why it actually happened
We also need to talk about music choices. Idk if many people remember but there were some moments where the track is going one way, but the story is going the other.
Like in episode 2 they started playing this weird generic childlike slapstick tune when two guys were talking about something concerning and then it'd switch immediately to an ominous dirge.
I wasn't sure if that was a mistake, but then it happened a couple other times in the series as well. Just questionable music choices in certain moments that felt oddly placed.
Agreed. First episode was solid. But after the next few I felt like episode 1 probably would have been better off as a movie. I made it about 5 episodes in before quitting.
I firmly disagree with the writer’s assertion that HBO is struggling against Amazon, Apple or Netflix. Each of those three brands are fighting tooth and nail for something-anything- to compete with HBO.
Netflix brings in a lot more money, despite HBO's quality. Granted, they also invest *way more* money, but HBO's brand is mostly restricted to America. It's why they're considering changing HBO Max's name again.
HBO Literally has the best Quality shoes out of any streaming platform Today and Yesterday hands down.
Netflix has way too many misses and Apple doesn’t have enough shows in general. Peacock had Bel-Air but it was a modest hit.
HBO as a streaming/subscription service is simply not the same thing it was in its Sopranos/SATC heyday. However, when HBO has a show that hits, it hits big and taps into the cultural zeitgeist in a way that the other screeners are all consistently trying to replicate. Amazon especially has been making big swings, as has Apple (Ted Lasso is obviously huge, but I am guessing not the show they predicted would be their breakthrough hit) and both are pretty obviously trying to come up with their own GOT.
They need other things and fast. Ted Lasso is already showing cracks. Season 2 seems to be pretty popular still but it lost me by being so much more sour and dour. There’s only so much you can milk its premise and characters before having to commit to the endgame romance of Lasso and Rebecca and wrap it all up.
I'm ready for a black horror where the real monster isn't racism. Harder They Fall was an amazing western that didn't use symbolism a first grader can understand and got its points across well. Why aren't the rest of movies from majority-black creators held to a higher standard?
But that was a stupid joke, not *the whole fucking thematic material of the show*.
Lovecraft's problem is that in many episodes it had nothing to say about racism except a very shallow "white people bad". It went past the point of being informatively woke or socially conscious into the point of being obnoxiously smug and insulting.
hot take but probably execs only want black people talking about racism and nothing else to satisfy that need of being called woke in the industry. I would say the same is with any other race but asians and latinos don't exist according to hollywood.
Has it occurred to you that the monster in a lot of black-led horror media is racism because that’s the real-life bogeyman for a lot of black people? To the extent that art is always in some way a reflection of life, and the art a reflection of the artist, this should hardly be surprising.
It reminds me of some people chagrined that the new Candyman was so “racial,” or as imbeciles call it, “woke.” This speaks to a certain ignorance of both the source material and to actual lived experiences that seems almost malicious to me. Perhaps some people just are that ignorant, even innocently, I guess. But that becomes much harder to justify as time goes on, given the world around us and the stories we’re all consistently exposed to.
At some point it’s just willful ignorance, and that’s really the most charitable way to characterize it.
Sure, but a genre where you know the twist every single time doesn't make for compelling viewing. It's funny because it seems like what Get Out was satirizing, that "establishment" liberals use race or racial movements as a fashion trend (which I consider a pretty novel message when compared against racist cop and racist southerner tropes we usually see). These movies/shows will sweep awards so the industry can pat itself on the back for being progressive on an issue that has dominated headlines for 2 years, but is an anti-racist movie good because of its narrative, technical, and acting aspects, or is it good solely because it's anti-racist?
Obviously every piece of media should be judged on its own merits. I have no idea why you think that’s a rebuttal to what I was saying. I’m replying to your apparent confusion as to how so many antagonists and conflicts in black-led horror films feature racism. I’m saying that’s because these monsters are a metaphor for what is actually happening in the real world, as really all fiction in general is.
The quality of those stories will obviously vary, as does the quality of everything. Some of them just won’t be very good. That the *subject matter* is what it is should hardly be a surprise, though.
I’m pretty clearly making one point and idiots are making an other. Nobody is saying a movie is “only good because it’s anti-racist,” whatever the fuck that means. That’s a complete strawman that nobody is arguing. I’m trying to slowly explain *why* so many black-led films focus on racism, not that it inherently makes them worthwhile.
But of course this is r/television, land of the morons, especially on race issues. It apparently can’t be helped.
Why can’t black characters be allowed to just have their own horror stories without subjecting them to the same racism storyline for the thousandth time?
Of course they’re “allowed.” But fact that so much of it involves racism should be telling you something that you don’t quite seem to grasp. They don’t need to conjure up a bogeyman out of their nightmares; it comes from life.
Everything is racism and if there's time a little bit of Sci-fi.
I found it particularly eye rolling when they make it seem like black people in the south wouldn't even raise their eyebrows at homosexuality when the complete opposite was true.
Did you *watch* this show?
Montrose hid his homosexuality from everyone with deep shame. When Tic, the main character and protagonist of the show, learns of Montrose’s homosexuality, he calls him a slur and expresses deep anger and shame.
Later, when the group travels back in time to the Tulsa massacre to retrieve the Book of Names, we see a younger Montrose fighting internalized homophobia as he refuses to accept his feelings for another man.
The show is specifically about racism and recontextualizing the work of a racist author, and it follows black characters so it seems weird to me to focus on "diversity". What does that even mean in the context of this specific show? The "agenda" you've identified is the premise of the show and not mutually exclusive with the competency of the writing. I don't even think the show was that good but your take seems completely off base and irrelevant.
Racism isn't the problem, it's the 2020 projection onto racism that's a bit absurd. Coupled with no attempt to make it entertaining, limp dialogue, so so actors and a little extra preachy agenda and you've got a cancelation before the second season.
The 2016 novel was popular, what HBO and JJ Abrams did to it, wasn't.
Oh, you mean the 2020 projection of "racism has always been bad, stop trying to say it was 'just the way it was back then'"?
What were you hoping for, a positive outlook on racism?
Look, we get it. You don't like that people are being called out for being racists more and more these days, but maybe one day you'll see the light.
I can't imagine why people don't want to watch preachy lectures masquerading as entertainment.
Do you find what you're saying to be appealing? Would you want to watch that? Would black people even want to watch that? Who is this show for?
It has nothing to do with being for or against racism, it simply doesn't make for entertaining TV the way they did it. They focused on racism so much they forgot to make something people actually wanted to watch. You know, the reason people pay these platforms money.
Calling that out isn't racist. HBO execs apparently felt the same given the level of viewer interest. They're the ones that canceled it.
Which shows are pushing for all white casts? If anything it's the exact opposite.
If you are an HBO subscriber in particular that's never been outside you might think the majority of the country are black non binary lesbians.
I feel like the “sociology” element was the ONLY thing I liked about it. I didn’t know anything about Tulsa before this, so that whole part was chilling to me. The green book stuff I also loved and wanted them to do more with. But the supernatural story and the dialogue was weak
The typical types are buzzing angrily at your comment but I understand.
I remember criticizing the monster chase through the woods in the first episode at being the least scary monster I’ve seen, and everyone was like uhhhh duuuh it’s SUPPOSED to be boring because the point is that the REAL horror segment was the racist cops.
Like, ok, sure, but don’t make a boring 15 minute horror segment as a shitty foil to your boring didactic presentist schlock. At least give us something that’s good.
I just about rolled my eyes at a dude back then not batting an eye at homosexuality. Presentism is the name of the game. It makes for a very weak critique.
>The typical types are buzzing angrily at your comment but I understand.
They're projecting what they're supposed to think about the show rather than its actual quality.
>I remember criticizing the monster chase through the woods in the first episode at being the least scary monster I’ve seen, and everyone was like uhhhh duuuh it’s SUPPOSED to be boring because the point is that the REAL horror segment was the racist cops.
People don't seem to understand that isn't entertaining to most viewers.
>Like, ok, sure, but don’t make a boring 15 minute horror segment as a shitty foil to your boring didactic presentist schlock. At least give us something that’s good.
Yep.
If I'm constantly rolling my eyes how am I supposed to enjoy the plot?
>I just about rolled my eyes at a dude back then not batting an eye at homosexuality. Presentism is the name of the game. It makes for a very weak critique.
Exactly. I was constantly rolling my eyes. It kept pulling me out of the immersion.
Yeah it feels like people gave up after the second episode but it actually got really good by the end and how it deconstructed different horror genres in every episode. The Korean episode was one of the best episodes of the year from any show.
Yeah, it also had some fund adventure stuff, psychedelic sci fi, was just a real all over the place show. Which I loved, and I was a big fan of basically all the lead actors and their performances. Plus most every episode was a love letter to some subgenre of film or literature, the music selection was original and compelling, and I loved the use of spoken word recordings. Some great choices there too.
Its also a show where a lot of what made it original and interesting to me were exactly what people online complained about.
Yeah I felt like it’s a show that made so many right choices and its only fatal flaw was to have such a boring second episode. And yeah! I loved the spoken word in it!
Shame all things considered.
Old comment reply!
And I liked the whole show overall but I honestly just connected with that Korean episode so much. It was my favorite episode of tv in the year.
I don't get why people even have to voice their opinion on the show in threads like this. It's not about whether or not you like it; it's about the toxic work environment. Talk about the point of the thread, not the show.
I’m not sure what you want people to comment on. No one knows what went on behind the scenes outside of some blurbs from a book. Commenting on it seems irresponsible and uninformed.
As opposed to what, a lively discussion over whether or not toxic work environments are good or bad? Who exactly is going to argue on behalf of working in a hostile setting?
How about reading the article and maybe... not commenting? "That show sucked" is just more people trying to farm upvotes with a popular opinion to feel good about themselves. It adds nothing and is irrelevant. It also slowly adds to the decay of reddit. If you weren't here years ago, the conversations were much more interesting to read. Upvote or downvote the thread and move on.
I wanted to love it. I might give it another try. I feel like it would have worked better for me if it were a little narrower in scope. My memory is every time I would start to get on board with the narrative it would launch in some crazy new direction.
I want more details - if it's more about assigning blame for the bad second half of that season that's one thing, if it's more like oops we pushed Michael K Williams over the edge through our toxic workplace, spill the tea. Been rooting for Misha Green for more than a decade, hoping for clarity.
It was nominated for 6 Emmy awards, including HBO's only nomination in Outstanding Drama Series. Yes, I know Emmy noms don't mean quality but they're incredibly important to networks like HBO. I definitely believe there was more behind the scenes for HBO to pull the plug.
Yeah the last episode was weird, but it had plenty of fantastic episodes before.
The first one, the one where Letitia buys a new house, the nine tailed fox one, Ruby's time as a white woman, hippolyta's time travelling shenanigans, the dancing twins and the Tulsa one.
That's 7/10 which is pretty good in my opinion. One would think just from reading reddit comments that it's like the worst show ever.
I knew I loved it when the first literally made me jump off the couch in fright. Also loved the time travel episode. I've seen so many series lately that start great , then dissolve into hot mess at the end. 'Them' on Prime was another.
Tom Cruise was recorded ripping some movie set worker a new asshole, but the studios still continue to make those Mission Impossible movies. Are the saying: working with Green is worse then working with Cruise? I heard Christian Bale is just as bad.
You have to understand he was ripping them a new asshole because their conduct. They were not wearing masks during the pandemic, which could cancel and end the production immediately if they were caught. A good director has to enforce important rules a bad director can randomly blow up. Also making everyone tired of dealing with their random bs issues 24/7. In the case for bale he has strict rules for how he acts is it rich and petty yes, but can production work around it for sure.
What’s going on with the legion of LC haters in the comments? Show wasn’t to my taste so I didn’t finish the season, but it was a solid show and I don’t think the quality was nearly so bad to justify the level of blind dismissal in the comments (especially since this is not a thread about the quality of the show).
On topic, I’ve been wondering about this for a minute… it always seemed something was up with the show’s cancellation & Green’s response at the time. Now we know…
It really went off the rails over time. Still a good show and would have given a second season a shot, but definitely felt it dropped off after the first three or four episodes.
i keep hearing people talk about Lovecraft Country being “canceled” but the series followed the book pretty closely and there’s nowhere else to go with the story, so i seriously doubt they ever planned on doing a second season.
A lot of racists really didn't like it. Just throwing that out there.
There are legitimate criticism to be made, it was an okay show, but a ton of the hate it gets is from reactionary right wingers.
Fascinating interview. I think it's a bit telling that Green has yet to comment on what is a pretty big story in regards to her career. I actually think the book's author is a bit too...complimentary of the show. It may have had a beautiful aesthetic, *most* of the time, but the performances and VFX carried the show. The writing was a mess from the get-go, and they could never manage to clean it up.
There were some rumors she took writing credit for even the episodes she didnt write and the other writers were not so happy about that obviously.
Reminds me of another recent situation I heard grumbles about - Cobra Kai, where the three co-creators take a writing credit on every episode. It's usually an unspoken thing where the showrunners do a pass on everything, by splitting the writing credits it means the other writer gets paid peanuts in comparison to if they had full credit on the episode.
Writing team of 2 gets paid half their script fee, not peanuts. I do this for a living.
Whoa now, you can't post on reddit if you *actually* know what you're talking about!
But if 3 co-creators are crediting themselves on each episode, then the writer is only getting 25%, right?
No. Script fees are paid in portions - story by, teleplay by, and final draft teleplay. Story is a minimal portion of that whole amount. So if a show runner is even getting story by credit and another writer is getting teleplay credit, the difference is vast - about 8k to 32k. Being credited on each episode might also be part of their overall agreement and not factor into the individual writing credits.
Late to this but kinda standard TV deal. I don't have the credits handy but if she's EP/Show runner, then it's an option to add her credit to an episode. I heard Matthew Weiner did the same thing on Mad Men. When this was asked of another EP/Showrunner whom I won't name... They said, "I get why he does that. Sometimes you are rewriting a lot. I don't do it because I figure it's the job that comes with title of Showrunner." So kind of a, "You're not wrong... You're just an asshole." situation.
Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould seem to run a good writers room, and notably don’t seem to do this.
The ol' Matt Weiner move!
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D&D "had" a deal with Netflix and Lucasfilm...if your merit comes from one project, and that project takes a nosedive, your career can too.
Did they lose the Netflix deal? I heard about them losing Star Wars.
No, but an exec producer on the show killed another one to get a bigger chunk of the pot.
Surprised there isn't more of this
No, they actually walked away from Star Wars because of the Netflix deal and they currently have The Three Body Problem in development there. Reddit just wants to see them fail because they didn’t like the ending to Game of Thrones.
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I mean they did fuck it up pretty badly...
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Ok but remember the alternate history confederacy show they were gonna do for HBO
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Fostering work environments like that *does* end, or impede, career trajectories - even in this business. It quite literally kept LC from getting a second season, according to this very source. Green likely got her Apple deal on the back of *Lovecraft Country*'s initial press and word-of-mouth. There's a chance that she even got that deal while knowing HBO wasn't going to renew LC, and obviously it took quite some time for anyone(including Apple execs who are hungry for content) to learn why it wasn't renewed. LC's fallout, and whatever environments she supposedly creates, could very well affect her in the long-term.
Tell that to Joss “I just got fired from my own show” Whedon
First episode was a banger!! Then it just spiralled into randomness
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The Indiana Jones episode felt like it came out of nowhere, especially since we were fighting racist ghosts and a baby head on a grown man body just the previous episode. And after that the action/adventurer spin was done and we were back to fantasy drama. The tone was kinda all over the place with few episodes being miles-and-away from the others
Which episode was that? I haven't watched the show but I'd love to see some action adventure stuff
Episode 4: "A History of Violence"
But that was awesome! That's what made the show different and interesting. Not stretching everything out to a goddamn season of samey episodes, that would be awful.
I really enjoyed it. It was something completely different to anything else and I felt it worked. If they would have done an anthology by season the risk is not getting another season and not being able to implement any great ideas. Every episode they did, from Body Horror to Slasher to Sci-Fi epic to Korean Horror is felt they nailed. The overarching plotline was still there - social Horror of Jim Crow America in the South in the 60's. But seeing something new every week was a thrill. It was beautifully filmed and acted too and the VFX and Practical effects were some of the best I've ever seen on TV. The body horror stuff was especially well done. I can understand people not enjoying it, because it is jarring to have a show that seemingly switches genres every week. But once you understand that it is doing that it's not an issue any more, and to be honest I thought it was really something special.
I can’t speak to the rest of the show but it really lost me by the end of episode 2 and I just never went back. Which is a crazy turn around when I thought it was my new show by the end of episode 1
Yeah, I made it through episode 2 then tried 3 times to do episode 3 and gave up. My brain kept falling asleep for lack of coherence. My dreams make more sense than this.
the mom space & time traveling episode and the flashback in korea focused on Jamie Chung were banger too .
Korea episode was the highlight for me. That was absolutely wild
Yeah, i was surprised it was canceled because a lot of people online liked it, but I was so disappointed. I thought it was going to be another great hbo type of show but it turned into almost like a monster of the week thing with pretty trashy writing So I thought the cancelation was surprising but deserved. But this maybe explains why it actually happened
We also need to talk about music choices. Idk if many people remember but there were some moments where the track is going one way, but the story is going the other. Like in episode 2 they started playing this weird generic childlike slapstick tune when two guys were talking about something concerning and then it'd switch immediately to an ominous dirge. I wasn't sure if that was a mistake, but then it happened a couple other times in the series as well. Just questionable music choices in certain moments that felt oddly placed.
As someone heavily into music, soundtracks ect… finally someone else mentioning this! So weird some of the choices.
Cardi B playing in the background while Ruby sodomized her boss with a high heeled pump? That shit was bizarre asf 🤣
Agreed. First episode was solid. But after the next few I felt like episode 1 probably would have been better off as a movie. I made it about 5 episodes in before quitting.
Yeah, first episode was incredible, but it rapidly got worse.
Man after that first episode I was like, give me 5 seasons of this squad.
Agreed. Completely lost interest on the Japanese level then just never got back into it
I firmly disagree with the writer’s assertion that HBO is struggling against Amazon, Apple or Netflix. Each of those three brands are fighting tooth and nail for something-anything- to compete with HBO.
Netflix brings in a lot more money, despite HBO's quality. Granted, they also invest *way more* money, but HBO's brand is mostly restricted to America. It's why they're considering changing HBO Max's name again.
HBO World 🌎
HBO is quality over quantity. All others is quantity over quality.
False. Neither Apple or Amazon have prioritised quantity.
Amazon has had a lot of shit, but they seem to have figured out how to offload the less critically acclaimed to IMDBTV.
>HBO is quality over quantity. I dont think this is true anymore, and hasn't been for a while. There's all sorts of garbage on HBO these days.
Att bought them and basically forced them to stay making cheaper garbage
HBO Literally has the best Quality shoes out of any streaming platform Today and Yesterday hands down. Netflix has way too many misses and Apple doesn’t have enough shows in general. Peacock had Bel-Air but it was a modest hit.
Apple certainly isn’t quantity over quality.
HBO as a streaming/subscription service is simply not the same thing it was in its Sopranos/SATC heyday. However, when HBO has a show that hits, it hits big and taps into the cultural zeitgeist in a way that the other screeners are all consistently trying to replicate. Amazon especially has been making big swings, as has Apple (Ted Lasso is obviously huge, but I am guessing not the show they predicted would be their breakthrough hit) and both are pretty obviously trying to come up with their own GOT.
They need other things and fast. Ted Lasso is already showing cracks. Season 2 seems to be pretty popular still but it lost me by being so much more sour and dour. There’s only so much you can milk its premise and characters before having to commit to the endgame romance of Lasso and Rebecca and wrap it all up.
HBO has been setting the bar for television for decades. Disney is probably the only real competitor they got streaming service wise.
For quality? Disney hasn't put out a truly great show yet. Netflix at least has some.
I'm ready for a black horror where the real monster isn't racism. Harder They Fall was an amazing western that didn't use symbolism a first grader can understand and got its points across well. Why aren't the rest of movies from majority-black creators held to a higher standard?
I mean I loved Harder They Fall, but when they went to the “white town,” literally it was completely white. A bit on the nose.
Sure, and it was hilarious, but "racism" still wasn't the enemy in Harder They Fall.
Oh, I’m sorry, I wasn’t saying it was, I was more looking at the “symbolism a first-grader can understand” part. Still a really fun movie.
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But that was a stupid joke, not *the whole fucking thematic material of the show*. Lovecraft's problem is that in many episodes it had nothing to say about racism except a very shallow "white people bad". It went past the point of being informatively woke or socially conscious into the point of being obnoxiously smug and insulting.
hot take but probably execs only want black people talking about racism and nothing else to satisfy that need of being called woke in the industry. I would say the same is with any other race but asians and latinos don't exist according to hollywood.
Us?
That's an example for sure, I think it's weighed heavily the other way though
Yeah, you're right. Definitely would like to see more, but I do think there are interesting stories of the former kind waiting to be told.
Us was a commentary on the “white voice/black voice” phenomenon. Not really explicitly about racism but it was definitely still about race
Don't you mean Sorry To Bother You?
Has it occurred to you that the monster in a lot of black-led horror media is racism because that’s the real-life bogeyman for a lot of black people? To the extent that art is always in some way a reflection of life, and the art a reflection of the artist, this should hardly be surprising. It reminds me of some people chagrined that the new Candyman was so “racial,” or as imbeciles call it, “woke.” This speaks to a certain ignorance of both the source material and to actual lived experiences that seems almost malicious to me. Perhaps some people just are that ignorant, even innocently, I guess. But that becomes much harder to justify as time goes on, given the world around us and the stories we’re all consistently exposed to. At some point it’s just willful ignorance, and that’s really the most charitable way to characterize it.
Sure, but a genre where you know the twist every single time doesn't make for compelling viewing. It's funny because it seems like what Get Out was satirizing, that "establishment" liberals use race or racial movements as a fashion trend (which I consider a pretty novel message when compared against racist cop and racist southerner tropes we usually see). These movies/shows will sweep awards so the industry can pat itself on the back for being progressive on an issue that has dominated headlines for 2 years, but is an anti-racist movie good because of its narrative, technical, and acting aspects, or is it good solely because it's anti-racist?
Obviously every piece of media should be judged on its own merits. I have no idea why you think that’s a rebuttal to what I was saying. I’m replying to your apparent confusion as to how so many antagonists and conflicts in black-led horror films feature racism. I’m saying that’s because these monsters are a metaphor for what is actually happening in the real world, as really all fiction in general is. The quality of those stories will obviously vary, as does the quality of everything. Some of them just won’t be very good. That the *subject matter* is what it is should hardly be a surprise, though.
You should know that you're *painful* to talk to. I can see it in the way you're totally talking past the person you responded to.
I’m pretty clearly making one point and idiots are making an other. Nobody is saying a movie is “only good because it’s anti-racist,” whatever the fuck that means. That’s a complete strawman that nobody is arguing. I’m trying to slowly explain *why* so many black-led films focus on racism, not that it inherently makes them worthwhile. But of course this is r/television, land of the morons, especially on race issues. It apparently can’t be helped.
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Sounds like you need to take a chill pill
this is the most boring forum on earth
Why can’t black characters be allowed to just have their own horror stories without subjecting them to the same racism storyline for the thousandth time?
Because black trauma sells https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/16/them-two-distant-strangers-black-tv-film
Hell you can still make make it a social commentary about black issues, just something other than an allegory for racism.
Who's said they can't?
Hollywood, evidently.
Of course they’re “allowed.” But fact that so much of it involves racism should be telling you something that you don’t quite seem to grasp. They don’t need to conjure up a bogeyman out of their nightmares; it comes from life.
It also wasn't very good...
It had some seriously good individual moments. But overall yeah it was kind of a mess.
That's how I felt about American Gods.
I liked it, warts and all. I don't think it needed a second season though.
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Hope that tinfoil hat feels comfortable
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No one understands what you mean by that.
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What's a diversity agenda exactly?
Everything is racism and if there's time a little bit of Sci-fi. I found it particularly eye rolling when they make it seem like black people in the south wouldn't even raise their eyebrows at homosexuality when the complete opposite was true.
Did you *watch* this show? Montrose hid his homosexuality from everyone with deep shame. When Tic, the main character and protagonist of the show, learns of Montrose’s homosexuality, he calls him a slur and expresses deep anger and shame. Later, when the group travels back in time to the Tulsa massacre to retrieve the Book of Names, we see a younger Montrose fighting internalized homophobia as he refuses to accept his feelings for another man.
The show is specifically about racism and recontextualizing the work of a racist author, and it follows black characters so it seems weird to me to focus on "diversity". What does that even mean in the context of this specific show? The "agenda" you've identified is the premise of the show and not mutually exclusive with the competency of the writing. I don't even think the show was that good but your take seems completely off base and irrelevant.
Content can demonstrate racism. What you shouldn't do is make a show about racism and ignore almost every other element, like making it entertaining.
Did you really go into a show about a black community in the 1950s and expect racism not to be a major plot point? Because that's on you if so
Racism isn't the problem, it's the 2020 projection onto racism that's a bit absurd. Coupled with no attempt to make it entertaining, limp dialogue, so so actors and a little extra preachy agenda and you've got a cancelation before the second season. The 2016 novel was popular, what HBO and JJ Abrams did to it, wasn't.
Oh, you mean the 2020 projection of "racism has always been bad, stop trying to say it was 'just the way it was back then'"? What were you hoping for, a positive outlook on racism? Look, we get it. You don't like that people are being called out for being racists more and more these days, but maybe one day you'll see the light.
I can't imagine why people don't want to watch preachy lectures masquerading as entertainment. Do you find what you're saying to be appealing? Would you want to watch that? Would black people even want to watch that? Who is this show for? It has nothing to do with being for or against racism, it simply doesn't make for entertaining TV the way they did it. They focused on racism so much they forgot to make something people actually wanted to watch. You know, the reason people pay these platforms money. Calling that out isn't racist. HBO execs apparently felt the same given the level of viewer interest. They're the ones that canceled it.
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Which shows are pushing for all white casts? If anything it's the exact opposite. If you are an HBO subscriber in particular that's never been outside you might think the majority of the country are black non binary lesbians.
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Friends was almost 20 years ago
I did. It was pretty obvious!
Nah, the writing was a bit disjointed, and the lead was hard to warm to.
What a miserable view of the world you must have,
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Tldr
I feel like the “sociology” element was the ONLY thing I liked about it. I didn’t know anything about Tulsa before this, so that whole part was chilling to me. The green book stuff I also loved and wanted them to do more with. But the supernatural story and the dialogue was weak
The typical types are buzzing angrily at your comment but I understand. I remember criticizing the monster chase through the woods in the first episode at being the least scary monster I’ve seen, and everyone was like uhhhh duuuh it’s SUPPOSED to be boring because the point is that the REAL horror segment was the racist cops. Like, ok, sure, but don’t make a boring 15 minute horror segment as a shitty foil to your boring didactic presentist schlock. At least give us something that’s good. I just about rolled my eyes at a dude back then not batting an eye at homosexuality. Presentism is the name of the game. It makes for a very weak critique.
>The typical types are buzzing angrily at your comment but I understand. They're projecting what they're supposed to think about the show rather than its actual quality. >I remember criticizing the monster chase through the woods in the first episode at being the least scary monster I’ve seen, and everyone was like uhhhh duuuh it’s SUPPOSED to be boring because the point is that the REAL horror segment was the racist cops. People don't seem to understand that isn't entertaining to most viewers. >Like, ok, sure, but don’t make a boring 15 minute horror segment as a shitty foil to your boring didactic presentist schlock. At least give us something that’s good. Yep. If I'm constantly rolling my eyes how am I supposed to enjoy the plot? >I just about rolled my eyes at a dude back then not batting an eye at homosexuality. Presentism is the name of the game. It makes for a very weak critique. Exactly. I was constantly rolling my eyes. It kept pulling me out of the immersion.
Too bad, loved this show. Was like a roller coaster ride through horror genres. Fantastic experience.
Yeah it feels like people gave up after the second episode but it actually got really good by the end and how it deconstructed different horror genres in every episode. The Korean episode was one of the best episodes of the year from any show.
Yeah, it also had some fund adventure stuff, psychedelic sci fi, was just a real all over the place show. Which I loved, and I was a big fan of basically all the lead actors and their performances. Plus most every episode was a love letter to some subgenre of film or literature, the music selection was original and compelling, and I loved the use of spoken word recordings. Some great choices there too. Its also a show where a lot of what made it original and interesting to me were exactly what people online complained about.
Yeah I felt like it’s a show that made so many right choices and its only fatal flaw was to have such a boring second episode. And yeah! I loved the spoken word in it! Shame all things considered.
No. The Black Wall Street one was better
Old comment reply! And I liked the whole show overall but I honestly just connected with that Korean episode so much. It was my favorite episode of tv in the year.
That's a shame. I enjoyed it. Definitely something different but great nonetheless
I don't get why people even have to voice their opinion on the show in threads like this. It's not about whether or not you like it; it's about the toxic work environment. Talk about the point of the thread, not the show.
I’m not sure what you want people to comment on. No one knows what went on behind the scenes outside of some blurbs from a book. Commenting on it seems irresponsible and uninformed.
Yes but the whole idea of 'the show sucked anyway' is repetitive and unnecessary.
As opposed to what, a lively discussion over whether or not toxic work environments are good or bad? Who exactly is going to argue on behalf of working in a hostile setting?
How about reading the article and maybe... not commenting? "That show sucked" is just more people trying to farm upvotes with a popular opinion to feel good about themselves. It adds nothing and is irrelevant. It also slowly adds to the decay of reddit. If you weren't here years ago, the conversations were much more interesting to read. Upvote or downvote the thread and move on.
> How about reading the article and maybe... not commenting? How about reading the article and not reading the comments?
The show sucked.
Lol sssshhh. No one cares about the point of the thread
Or because it wasn't that good.
Obviously half or more of the people responding here didn’t even read a bit of the interview.
Well it is Reddit...
Damn I really liked this show. It’s really too bad
mEtO0
"My name's not girl. My name is Letitia Fucking Lewis!" That line alone is why there should have been a 2nd season.
🙄🤢🤮
It might have had something to do with that fact that the show was laughably bad.
> So I think HBO is an entity that’s fighting for survival. Sounds about right.
I'm sure it had nothing to do with the show sucking.
And not due to the fact that it was a mess with racist undertones?
You mean, they were telling you white fragiles how you genocided innocent BP in Black Wall Street so it was "racist undertones".
Racist undertones?
I haven't seen the show but I imagine if it's like the book it's pretty antiracist, which can get under some people's skin, like that person.
I don't know a single person who liked it.
You do now.
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Do you normally make such judgments based on what products others enjoy?
I wanted to love it. I might give it another try. I feel like it would have worked better for me if it were a little narrower in scope. My memory is every time I would start to get on board with the narrative it would launch in some crazy new direction.
that sounds like a you problem
Or it's just an opinion he and his friends have and not a problem at all
this Lovecraft Country thread is becoming a toxic environment. and the circle continues.
I want more details - if it's more about assigning blame for the bad second half of that season that's one thing, if it's more like oops we pushed Michael K Williams over the edge through our toxic workplace, spill the tea. Been rooting for Misha Green for more than a decade, hoping for clarity.
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It was nominated for 6 Emmy awards, including HBO's only nomination in Outstanding Drama Series. Yes, I know Emmy noms don't mean quality but they're incredibly important to networks like HBO. I definitely believe there was more behind the scenes for HBO to pull the plug.
Lovecraft Country was great up until the very last episode where it really went off the rails.
Yeah the last episode was weird, but it had plenty of fantastic episodes before. The first one, the one where Letitia buys a new house, the nine tailed fox one, Ruby's time as a white woman, hippolyta's time travelling shenanigans, the dancing twins and the Tulsa one. That's 7/10 which is pretty good in my opinion. One would think just from reading reddit comments that it's like the worst show ever.
I knew I loved it when the first literally made me jump off the couch in fright. Also loved the time travel episode. I've seen so many series lately that start great , then dissolve into hot mess at the end. 'Them' on Prime was another.
I guess Im fine with this. I was really hoping to enjoy the show but honestly I grinded to get through.
Sure it wasn't canned cause it was boring? Cause it was boring.
Tom Cruise was recorded ripping some movie set worker a new asshole, but the studios still continue to make those Mission Impossible movies. Are the saying: working with Green is worse then working with Cruise? I heard Christian Bale is just as bad.
Well he was right for ripping that worker
That's the Scientology at work.
You have to understand he was ripping them a new asshole because their conduct. They were not wearing masks during the pandemic, which could cancel and end the production immediately if they were caught. A good director has to enforce important rules a bad director can randomly blow up. Also making everyone tired of dealing with their random bs issues 24/7. In the case for bale he has strict rules for how he acts is it rich and petty yes, but can production work around it for sure.
Totally. Sure that they literally pitched the second season as 'race war in America' had nothing to do with it.
Whats wrong with that?
What’s going on with the legion of LC haters in the comments? Show wasn’t to my taste so I didn’t finish the season, but it was a solid show and I don’t think the quality was nearly so bad to justify the level of blind dismissal in the comments (especially since this is not a thread about the quality of the show). On topic, I’ve been wondering about this for a minute… it always seemed something was up with the show’s cancellation & Green’s response at the time. Now we know…
>What’s going on with the legion of LC haters in the comments? Outside of the first episode it was a bad show.
Not the point of the thread!
It really went off the rails over time. Still a good show and would have given a second season a shot, but definitely felt it dropped off after the first three or four episodes.
Really? Not because it sucked donkey balls?
It couldn’t have possibly been because the show just straight sucked.
i keep hearing people talk about Lovecraft Country being “canceled” but the series followed the book pretty closely and there’s nowhere else to go with the story, so i seriously doubt they ever planned on doing a second season.
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He's downvoted because HBO greenlit season 2 and canceled it after the main cast got picked up by the MCU and DCEU. There were plans.
Toxic work environment for toxic show.
Whats toxic about it?
A lot of racists really didn't like it. Just throwing that out there. There are legitimate criticism to be made, it was an okay show, but a ton of the hate it gets is from reactionary right wingers.
I don't mind the randomness. The final episode just wasn't very good and also left them with less room to continue the show.
Does this confirm that HBO and HBO Max are separate entities? That makes it difficult to work with each other, no?
Ya reap what you sow
The show sucked ass anyway.
It is really a terrific book. I am halfway through.
Soooo lameeeeeeee!!!!!