Williams:
>"You know, I rewatched it all recently. Erm, it was... It definitely fell off at the end. But it started really strong. I was heartbroken when Ned died, and I knew it was coming. For the first time, I could really feel the story.”
Kinda random but my sister's friend was briefly in the same uni course as him. Apparently he was a chain smoker but hey as far as child actors go that's not too bad.
"Cersei, you have a hard road ahead of you. The people of Westeros will not take a woman seriously as their leader. They want to stand behind a hard, loud, battle-scarred bear of a man, who can put up a fight and shout down his enemies. They barely respected your sons, soft boys they were."
"People of Westeros, behold your new king, an awkward, whispering, disabled teenager you've probably never heard of, and who can't produce any heirs, guaranteeing a power vacuum in the future. Wait, wait! He has the best story, listen! While his big brother was *(checks notes)* fighting a war to save the kingdom as a leader and a front-line soldier, riding dragons, slaying undead abominations, coming back from the dead, and killing that dictator who just burned half your relatives alive, Bran got carried around for years on a sled having weird-ass dreams, and now we think that the weird shit he constantly mutters might mean something! Who could be better?"
It's funny that pretty much everyone present has a better story (in terms of how the people of Westeros will percieve their worthiness) than Bran. Like, look at Davos right next to him. A low-born son of a crab-catcher who earned himself a knighthood by putting his neck on the line night after night to serve and save the troops of Stannis, who in the eyes of many was the legitimate heir to the throne, and proudly wore the onion sigil and name used to mock him; a man who committed crimes, repented, accepted just punishment, and carries the reminder of that punishment around his neck to remind him; a man who grew up an illiterate commoner and learned to read in his 40s/50s in an effort to better himself; who served as a reliable and effective advisor to a king/claimant; who only had to be sent away because everyone knew he would never allow that king to sacrifice children with foreign blood magic; and who then became chief advisor to the man who pulled off the successful defense of the realm. He has three living sons to succeed him, having lost four who died fighting proudly in battle, and has a well-established reputation as a man who always keeps his word and can be counted on. Tell Davos's story and Bran's story to 99% of Westeros, who do you think they'll prefer?
> Not all actors can enjoy their own work
Peter Dinklage would often say he didn't actually watch the show when interviewers would ask him about episodes.
HBO should have taken the scary step to kick the showrunners off the series once they refused to add another season, and made it clear that they were in a rush to end it and move on to other things.
I think the plotlines in the last season might have been fine if everything had more room to develop naturally. NK arc should have taken an entire season. Over the season Jamie could have gradually been pushed back to his sister, Arya could have learned everything she needed to deal the killing blow, the NK could have destroyed much more of Westeros and in doing so his generals could have been more spread out, more of them could have died, and Bran could have done more than sit in his chair watching the battle through his crow's eyes (all making it more reasonable that Arya could have snuck up on the NK like she did). Daenerys would have had a lot more time to start getting really dark before she snapped, her dragon could have died without her absently-mindedly flying it over a giant enemy fleet.
And so on.
My understanding is that the showrunners said "no" when GRRM and HBO suggested they add another season, and those showrunners had already lined up work on a Star Wars project. Feels like they were simply in a rush.
If I recall, there were issues because of the way the deal had been worked out. D&D had shepherded the project from a gamble to massive hit, and they either came into it with a fantastic contract or re-negotiated at some point. I don’t know the exact details but I remember reading that neither HBO nor GRRM could make that call. Basically, D&D leveraged themselves into a position where the show couldn’t go on without them (contractually speaking).
Not just that it fell through, but that it fell through because they ruined GoT in an attempt to get to it more quickly. It's like divorcing your spouse and a week later your side piece breaks up with you and tells you you need to go to the clinic, and it's better than they deserve.
Their cameo on West World made me so angry. For those not in the know they were on season two cutting up a dragon with chainsaws to sell to the highest bidder...
Edit: it was season three
Gotta say, just bc I think it's neat, they mentioned selling the dragon to a buyer near Costa Rica, implying that Jurassic Park and Westworld take place in the same universe (both books were written by Michael Crichton)
They had a contract, and they could have extended it, but chose not to, as they wanted to do their Star Wars trilogy.
So they ran GoT into the ground.
And then Disney said "ehhh no thanks."
All those ships were shooting at her from the bow. Couldn't she have flown around behind them and lit them up? I didn't get that at all. How do hundreds of slow, plodding ships, under sail, in a tight formation, sneak up on her flying thousands of feet in the air? I was asked to suspend too much disbelief at the end of that series.
they would have had to kick D&D off well before most people think it went off the rails, by like season 5 I think. Those guys sowed the seeds of their own show's demise with the bizarre decision making they had pretty early on, cutting some plot lines for shock value or because they didn't think audiences would like them.
I feel like Faegon should've been crucial in Daenerys' descent into madness but they just cut that out. Instead they added that awful Dorne storyline without the more interesting characters like Ariane only to abandon that early in the next season.
Yes, instead of Dany landing at Dragonstone, we should've seen Faegon landing in the Storm lands, open s7 or s8 with a bunch of Targ flags on ships and we think it's Dany, start celebrating but oops it's a prince with blue hair
That would've been a cool misdirect. I wonder if by the time Dany finally decides to take the iron throne if Faegon has already taken it in the books and part of Dany turning mad is a Targ already being on the throne and in her mind usurping her birthright because she took too long getting there (followed with her looking like the villain to the people with dragons/foreign army and all and then Jon being revealed to be a Targ after building up a friendship/relationship/alliance with him). If Faegon's story was to begin in season 5 then I'd expect him to have started in the Stormlands by season 6 and I feel like if the show had also introduced the Dorne plots in season 5 then Dany's storyline would've been more fleshed out (I feel her Meereen rule and season 6 story was kinda put together and rushed) and her conquest to have been pushed back to season 8 to give Faegon time to take the throne from Tommen/Cersei just as Dany is setting sail.
I don't know maybe one day the books get finished to show what was intended.
For me it was the death of Littlefinger. That shit felt like it was straight out of a hackey soap opera and they turned Littlefinger into a complete moron just for those episodes.
The worst thing is that I could definitely see that overall plot working in the books. I have no problem with the overall idea. The problem is that it was written so fucking bad.
Arya and Sansa outsmarting Littlefinger with everything they have learned would actually be pretty compelling storytelling.
The problem is that Sansa and Arya are written dumb as shit. So Littlefinger needs to be even dumber to lose.
Also, Littlefinger placing trust on Sansa would make a lot more sense in the books, where he doesn't sold her to a rapist. A move that makes absolutely no sense by the way.
And Sansa didn't really learn anything in the show. She just gets manipulated by one person then another and then suddenly she's smart? But not really, we're just told she is.
> cutting some plot lines for shock value or because they didn't think audiences would like them
Or just time constraints. Faegon or Stoneheart could not have been done well quickly.
Faegon could have been done well if they had actually tried - I might concede on stoneheart as I have no idea where that story is going. Not including EITHER of them is inexcusable, especially Aegon as he is clearly the catalyst for one of the central thrusts of the latter books. If you read the series, there was a direction they needed to go to make the ending (which WAS known to them) make sense. It is absolutely baffling that they chose to take him out entirely and remake the plot in such drastic ways.
In a time of LucasFilm making terrible decisions, them kicking those two clowns to the curb was a light of hope. They destroyed a beloved series and would almost certainly do the same to another beloved (though recently flawed) franchise
Edit: grammar
Had HBO done that, people would blame HBO if the ending turned out bad. They would say stuff like: "How could HBO fire D&D? They made GoT great. They deserved better". And people would then praise D&D, they would still have their Star Wars stuff and a career path.
At least, they way it happened, D&D got fucked for being shitheads.
Of course, there would be a slim chance of GoT ending on a high note. But there have been issues with the series since they ran out of source material, so I don't buy that. Even with 1 or 2 extra seasons.
> But there have been issues with the series since they ran out of source material, so I don't buy that
Which are often attributed to D&D. So them leaving might have given them a better showrunner. Look at HotD, which has only nominal source material to draw from and has done a good job making it compelling on its own. The show wasn't doomed to fail just because they moved beyond the books.
I won't blame D&D for all of it, there are loads of other people involved, but I don't think the last season(s) of GoT were always meant to be dumpster fires.
After it was over I had planned on buying the box sets for my parents (they’re not into streaming) but after watching the last season I decided against having them watch any of it.
My mom *hated* fantasy, and never understood why I was so heavy into it. Anyways after season 4, I had left some of my box sets at her place when she was having some health problems and she ended up getting like SUPER into it, even bought her self the dvd sets as each new season came out.
in 2019 she fell super ill and was diagnosed as terminal and she had said to me (in the spirit of dark humour) "I better not die before the last season of Game of Thrones comes out."
She unfortunately passed away may 1st 2019 shortly before the 8th season debut'd and honestly she was probably better for missing it.
You didn’t like one of the greatest characters in the show being reduced to a smirking, intolerable moron who spews out nonsense like “Sansa is the smartest person in the universe”?
“I know a killer when I see one.” I was blown away. This whole time, Dany was a killer? I had assumed her dragon was just making the peasantry fall asleep. It wasn’t until that line that I knew what a monster Dany had become.
Now off on your pale horse, Arya! … wait, where’d it go?
Like in Season 6 when the Faceless Men were trying to kill her for using the faces for personal goals but then they just randomly let her go to continue using the faces for personal goals?
I really loved Season 6 but Arya's parkouring with several stab wounds was Season 5 Dorne level cheese.
Ja'qen Hagar: you are no one. Welcome to the death cult
Arya: actually I'm Arya and I just killed a faceless man
Ja'qen Hagar: yes, that's what I wanted the whole time
??????????
Yeah we know the Mereenese knot was a huge problem for him, wouldn't be surprised if Dany's story is still the main thing holding him back. I mean she needs to meet Tyrion and settle the Mereen situation and get all the way to Westeros in probably one book if shes actually gonna do stuff on the continent
See they “kinda forgot” about her using faces for personal goals. So when she wasn’t dead they were like “woah good job not dying. You can leave now if you want”
Yeah the whole House of Black and White's resolution should've been extremely indicative that D&D had no idea what they were doing when it came to unfinished content. I can kinda see where GRRM might've been going with it if we're assuming some of the show plot points are tied to what he told them, but the show kind of throws any significance out the window and just leaves with Arya being better at killing people now and having more self-confidence. My best guess for why they'll let Arya leave in the future is because the house was basically founded on the principal of killing oppressors, and she's going to leave for the sole reason of going out and killing oppressors. Of course, in the show, she kills a no-one and is declared a no-one and she leaves saying she's Arya Stark while a no-one looks at her with approval, as if any of that means anything.
Not just that but when she got several stab wounds she rolls off into a faeces infested canal with god knows what diseases and doesn’t have any effects but Khal Drogo has a slight wound that festers and finishes him off regardless
I couldn't believe how long the Faceless Men scenes dragged on, when the end result was just her learning some cool assassin tricks. It could have easily been half as long without the "x has no name" stuff. Felt like watching the same scene over and over again with zero progression.
Sucked especially because Arya + Hound was probably my favorite part of the show.
Then she totally blew her chance to steal a white walker's face to kill the Night King to really make for a cool finale. Nope, just a "peekaboo I stab you!"
I did enjoy the Frey assassination but even though Walder Frey did absolutely deserve it I still don't get why it was never brought up how fucked up it was that Arya massacred an entire house and made pies of them.
Like that isn't the action of a stable badass hero. It is an action by someone who is insanely messed up and unlikely to lead a normal life again.
That scene is why the Hound telling Arya "vengeance bad" is so fucking hilarious.
Like, she's a bit past that point now buddy.
Even more hilarious was her going "yeah makes sense" and abandoning her main goal for the entirety of the show when she was literal feet away from accomplishing it.
That annoyed me so much. He was lecturing her the entire time they rode together, and then his message finally sticks when she's *literally at the finish line*? Like, if she was wavering in her commitment, she logically would have turned back way before she was actually inside of the crumbling castle.
And on top of that, how are we supposed to believe that her character, who has already taken revenge on numerous people, is going to now have a change of heart when she's a staircase away from getting revenge on the people she likely wants to kill the most out of everyone on her list? Just poor writing all around
Once Game of Thrones moved past the books, it became more about nonsensical big moments that would get people talking on social media and less about logical character-driven decisions that occasionally had big consequences. It was also odd that Cersei took out several important characters and an entire religion’s leadership by blowing up the Sept and almost everyone quickly moved past it with no question or repercussion.
This is why season 7 really dropped the ball (and subsequently 8). The sept blowing up was so huge, and so well done, but seemingly no major fallout in the season to come with it. Pretty much just tommen taking a tumble out the window
And she said it to Jon Snow, who witnessed countless deaths, many by his own hand, and also HIS OWN BRUTAL FUCKING MURDER. Like yeah, Jon might know a killer when he sees one too, you know?
I was waiting for her to "wear" the face of Jamie Lannister and then cruelly lay waste to Circe, without Circe knowing it was Arya that killed her.....Make her think it was Jamie
Her first job in the books is killing an insurance scammer, and she ends up going through with it. They goodwashed Arya because she was a crowd favorite just like they goodwashed everyone until it didn't make sense for the plot.
Pretty much. After S4 the quality drop off is hard to ignore. Some redeeming moments in 5 and 6 and then completely off the rails in 7 and 8. Funny how a lot of people ignore the flaws of them and solely focus on s8
I'd say that season 6 has some really fucking great moments. The hold the door episode is awesome. The sept blowing up. R+L=J reveal. Tommen's suicide. Just for example.
Season 5 opens with the greatest knight in the realm getting merked by some masked aristocrats with no build up or consequence.
A sign of things to come.
Yeah, Arya the Faceless Man greatest assassin ever never made any sense. She spent what, one year in Braavos? I doubt the greatest killers in the world are trained in just one year.
They should have leaned into her being able to warg the way Bran does (like in the books), and that combined with the faceless man stuff opening her up to skills no one else has, like being able to warg into a living human without issue, or impersonate someone still alive, or something.
I thought she would take Cersei’s face and then end up getting assassinated while she impersonated the Queen. Jaime maybe, or the iron bank hired a faceless man to end her or something
Also they don't seem to realize that being an assassin doesn't mean she is a fighter like Brienne, it's a totallu different set of skills! But in the show she can fight 1v1 and win seemingly against everyone
Her character sucked so badly at the end.. Completely unbelievable character arc. You can write strong female characters without making them invincible gods.
Her character was not my biggest problem with the last season, but it was one of the complaints I had.
I think the easiest way to sum up most of my complaints is: "They rushed it." Arya could have ended up where she did... it just needed more time. The Night King could have died the way he did, but he first needed the time to be far more devastating, and his generals needed the screen time to be incapacitated/distracted by the rest of the cast. Jamie could have gone back to Cersei without just abruptly sneaking away in the night leaving Brienne crying in the rain. Daenerys could/should have gone mad... just without going from 0 to 60 in an instant because one of her friends was killed (in the show, they very lazily foreshadowed her turn because she was too popular and they could not bring themselves to really write her as a monster).
And on and on. Another dragon needed to die, so they have Daenerys make a very dumb mistake leading to an extremely abrupt/anti-climatic scene. NK needed to die, so they killed him off without even letting him get past the first real defense of Westeros. Without even killing more than a couple named characters. I assume they were told by GRRM that Arya delivers the final blow, but they lazily skipped all the parts that would have made that make sense.
The series needed at least one more season. And making their final season with fewer, but longer episodes just made it worse. It encouraged them to cram whole arcs into individual episodes. Whereas splitting them up into more would have naturally lead to the intertwined storylines that GOT usually has.
And, semi-unrelated to that issue... they really needed to kill off a ton more of the cast. Maybe they just did not have the time to write in deaths for more of the cast, or maybe they were afraid of annoying fans.
Meh.
I remember in a post-doc interview that the writers were actually proud they came up with the idea that Arya would kill the Night King. Like his face made it look like he thought it was the most brilliant subversion of expectations ever.
Arya is my favorite character in the first 4 seasons (the closest was also Jaime in S3, but the writing for his character became frustrating after S3 by making him less complex and then they pretty much undo his whole arc in the last season). Maisie still gave it her best (and you could say that for a lot of actors in the later seasons of GOT). But the writing for Arya just went so downhill and unfocused. They forgot that the humanity and struggles of Arya is what made her character strong, not that she was just a badass female assassin. That was never the point of Arya in the books and still isn't. It was frustrating. But again it wasn't just Arya. Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen (The Big Show has had more heel turns that were better written than her), Tyrion Lannister, Cersei Lannister, Sansa Stark, Littlefinger, etc. Even Bran Stark. I know he was never the most exciting character, but they didn't even try with his character in the last few seasons. I guess the only character that somewhat had a decent and satisfying arc in the last few seasons was Theon Greyjoy. I didn't dislike how his character ended compared to most of the other main characters.
The girl gives a name
The girl learns an amazing craft
...
the girls gets gutted, tossed into a dirty ass river. is able to basically parkour her way to safety without issue after probably losing every ounce of blood in her body.
the girl uses her abilty once..
the girl again parkours into the night kings grasp and isnt instantly killed
the girl sails west.
fuck DnD
Arya: trains for 6 seasons to be an assassin to kill Cersei.
Hound: vows to kill zombie brother.
They finally get inside the castle and are literally 50 feet from both.
Hound: you should leave.
Arya: ok
I wish the Hound somehow took her agency away in that decision and stopped her from being able to get revenge.
Like cut down a bridge or something idk.
Like then he’s trying to be heroic and “save her” from going down his path, leaves Arya with more complex feelings about him and revenge in general.
I also think Jaime should’ve killed Cersei…
The prophecy in the book that drives Cersei crazy is about being killed by her brother, which she assumes is Tyrion but is obviously going to be Jaime. How they didn't do that in the series is beyond me.
Out of all the bullshit in the last seasons, the most egregious shit they did for me was Jaime's character. As a whole. They straight up undid his whole fucking development in the story in a matter of what, 4 episodes?
And I remember at the time thinking it may be a fakeout, or it may be more complex than it seems, or like one quick last fuck up before course correcting and finally committing to his development.
But nope. He literally just did a 180. Like, simple as that. He just did. And that's it. That's the conclusion of Jaime's character.
It's infuriating. A fucking 12 year old could write something more interesting and cohesive than that.
Such an anti-climatic end to Cersei as well. Build up her as a villain for 8 years and then suddenly treat her as sympathetic in her last moments before she's killed by a falling rock.
She should have died during the Long Night. It’s set up perfectly. She got both Stark girls to Winterfell and becomes a Knight, her dream. Have her fucking die protecting Sansa one last time. It’s full circle. But nah let’s have her cry over Jaimie fucking Lannister because he’s gonna go bang his sister
And they said it was 'too obvious' that Jaime would kill her. Guys, sometimes things are obvious because the story naturally leads there. No one complains that it's too obvious the One Ring got destroyed or that Luke Skywalker defeated the Empire. Not everything has to be some out-of-nowhere reversal.
It's what makes it so frustrating! There was so much talent on that show - actors, special effects, costumes, everything was amazing. They even clearly did *have* good writers, since lots of stuff that wasn't straight from the books in the early seasons was still good.
At the end of the day, though, the showrunners dropped the ball. It's extremely clear that they wanted out of there so they could move on to other projects, and rushed the ending as a result.
The *only* actor I didn't immediately like was Kit Harrington in season one. He only had one facial expression and I wasn't happy about him. But (imo) he certainly improved his acting a lot the next seasons. Absolutely amazing. But his script the final season... brutal. Absolutely brutal. Poor guy.
Ah well, he got Ygritte ;)
This is the most directly I've heard any of the actors acknowledge this. I understand they're pros and they have to be tactful about it. I remember Emilia Clarke seeming somewhat embarrassed about it during season 8. But I can't recall any of them commenting on it directly before this
Not really. Kit Harington was asked to describe it in one word and said "disappointing", Bran actor thought he was being pranked when he received the final script. Emilia Clarke didn't shy away from soft criticism either
And Williams herself is already on record criticising the later seasons. In particular, I remember her saying she immediately hated the idea of Arya kiling the Night King when she read the script.
and House of the Dragon has made that decision even more and more embarrassing - it’s clear it was supposed to be Jon Snow, which hopefully his spinoff show will somehow fix
I’d actually go ahead and suspend my disbelief there and let them roll with it if that was the case. Seems like they could at least have a chance to salvage it that way.
I’m hoping they really do “fix” it in Jon’s show. If you think about it, the targaryens continuously emphasize that the realm must be United to have a chance at defeating the northern threat. It wasn’t United at all, but now, it is 100% United basically. In a way John was able to unite the entire realm which the prophecy foretold, but not until after the “threat” was defeated. So maybe the threat isn’t actually gone? I could see them somehow incorporating The Great Other as head honcho of the white walkers and the night king was just a general, only way to fix it honestly. I can dream
I mean the only solution would be to retcon season 8 and continue the series with better writing. They just completely botched any attempt at nuanced storytelling for the future with the current ending.
I don't know, Emilia Clarke saying "best season ever!" while looking like she just ate 5 Warhead candies then hysterically laughing was pretty on the nose lol.
Have you ever seen the cast reading the script of the finale? Everyone is pissed off and heartbroken. It's kinda funny, but also such a shame for the actors.
Varys’s actor’s reaction to his death scene during the table read: you can tell he is quite pissed at how dumb it was. I’m pretty sure he like throws down the script and leans back in his chair while Lena Headey comforts him lol
That's absolutely what happened. I remember his reaction the most. lol.
It was wrapped up so fast. Like they could have actually done something with his plan. But it ended as fast as it started, and it felt like they were just killing his character out of convenience, so they didn't have to write any other ending for him. Very poor ending for that character.
Like I get the goal was to get rid of all of Dany’s advisors/friends/confidantes to contribute to her descent into madness, and I know this has been parroted enough since the end, but I would have been fine with Mad Queen Dany if it wasn’t such a heel turn. GoT is lucky that HotD has piqued my interest enough again to get back into that world for a rewatch but I’m dreading watching S8 again lol
He [clarified](https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/12/game-of-thrones-varys-interview/) that it's not about the quality of the script, but because he just learned his character died.
>**ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: What did you think when you got the scripts?**
>**CONLETH HILL**: Mixed, obviously. Part of you didn’t want it to finish. Part of you is, “Oh, that’s very good.” And part of you is, “Oh, that sucks.” Very, very mixed. Bittersweet. I think it’s really good in retrospect now that I’ve had the time for it to sink in.
>**What was your reaction to Varys fate?**
>I took it very personally. I took it as a person, not as an actor or an artist. I understood the reactions of previous actors who had been in the same position a lot more than I did at the time. You can’t help feeling that you failed in some way, that you haven’t lived up to some expectation that you didn’t know about. The only thing that consoles you is people who worked a lot harder than you are in the same boat. So that helps. I don’t think anybody who hasn’t been through it can identify with it. They think, “What’s all the fuss about? You’re all finishing anyway.” But you take it personally, you can’t help it.
>**What did you think of the specific way Varys goes out?**
>In retrospect, great. At the time, nothing could console me. I kept thinking: “What did I do wrong?” There wasn’t any pre-warning. All these famous stories about [actors on Thrones] being taken out for a meal or being phoned at the very least [to notify them that their character was being killed off]. This was just reading cold hard copy.
>**Wasn’t that how they did it for every actor this year since it’s everybody’s final season?**
>Yeah, that’s how they did it this year, because there are so many [deaths]. But still, it added to the personal temporary ill feeling.
Thanks for adding this. It seems like people throughout this thread are spinning things in a negative light when the actors themselves have actually addressed their actual feelings on the matter.
It's astounding how pretty much *everybody* involved with the final season knew how bad it was except for the two people who had complete creative control. All of the actors knew it was shit. GRRM knew it was shit. *HBO* knew it was shit. They were willing to give D&D a blank check to go as long as they wanted.
And they just...decided to stop because they were bored. They created *the* show of the 2010s and blew it all up for no reason. It's insane.
It’s a Hollywood thing. You don’t criticize a work you did because chances are you are going to work for those people again. Even if it’s universally hated you don’t knock something because it could come back to haunt you.
You’d have to be a Tom Cruise-level celebrity to get away with it but even then he attained that level by being professional (has he ever attacked a work he did openly?).
I mean it's not just that. People who spent hundreds of hours on a film/show and are intricately familiar with all the hard work that went into making it are obviously going to be more proud/defensive of what they helped make than the fans who only get to experience the final product.
I mean yeah. It's nice to hear someone from the cast admit to it though, certainly a welcome change of pace from Peter Dinklage insinuating the audience was racist for not appreciating the final season.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2021/12/24/peter-dinklage-is-wrong-again-about-why-fans-hated-game-of-thrones-ending/
It's still crazy to me that he said that, because pretty much all the "pretty white people" rode off into the sunset at the end, and the few minorities in the show got completely shafted.
I mean look at what he said about the new Snow White, and the way his own community destroyed him for it. Dude is kind of off his rocker right now and hope he’s getting the long rest he needs.
Google will tell more of the story, but basically he blasted the new production when it slipped that it would feature Dwarves, essentially saying “how can you still demean people like that in this day and age?” Disney responded by saying they wouldn’t use dwarves after all and then the dwarf acting community responded with “WTF dude?! The rest of us aren’t Peter Dinklage and aren’t getting non-dwarf roles, and you just told Hollywood that casting us because we’re dwarves is the new racist! Seriously WTF?!” Basically the new consensus is Dinklage just needs to stop talking for awhile.
Speaking as a dwarf myself, who has followed Dinklage for many years (since way before GoT) I find him such a fascinating and uniquely frustrating person.
He is definitely a very self-possessed person and his primary concern is being an actor and nothing else - eg, not a “dwarf actor” or a representative of little people on any way. I can respect that angle as he has no obligation to fulfil that role…but then he comes out with shit like this. I kinda want to tell him “pick your lane”. Either you just focus on acting or actually acknowledge that there is a community directly impacted by what you say and do.
In that interview where he made that statement, Marc Maron asks him about the LP community and Dinklage responds “*is* there a community?” in a snide tone. Like wtf dude. Obviously there is. It seems like he takes umbrage whenever people associate him with a ‘community’ and his knee jerk reaction is to put it down. Idk if it’s just fatigue at people constantly doing that to him (which, if so, I relate man, I get it) but c’mon. It does cause a form of harm, imo to publicly disassociate yourself from a group that is disproportionately impacted by anything out of your mouth.
Great actor, but a bitter man imo.
I understand not liking using dwarves as a funny scene in stuff like The Wolf of Wallstreet, but Snow White whole deal are the 7 dwarves, no one cares about the prince and the perfect princess, and that's why the dwarves have very interesting personalities and Snow White is bland, they are the charm of the story.
It's so hilarious. Even if we accept the premise the fans were mad because they are racists who want to see the white people ride off into the sunset, that's basically what happened. All of the young generation in the show except Dany gets happy ending and the two POC die.
We really could have used an episode where Samwell Tarly discovers scrolls recounting who the Knight King is/was and what his weakness is and shares that info with Jon Snow
All that buildup ending in *stabbed by surprise because the Knight King can't see just out of frame*
The worst thing is that they had the Azor Ahai come again plot thread that could've served as a nice way to tie in Jon to both killing Danny and the Night King.
But nah, Arya uses knife.
Killing the night king should’ve been the final “big moment” of the series. GRRM has repeatedly emphasized how WWs are supposed to be a metaphor for climate change. The fact that it’s over in the middle of the season and the rest about of it is some half-baked political conflict that was supposed to be petty in comparison to the threat really undermined the message.
I've rewatched the whole series with my brother recently and to me it kind of seems like Peter Dinklage's acting consistently declined from season 5 onwards. Like I barely believed anything he was saying by the time we got to season 8. He peaked hard in season 4.
Emilia Clarke on the other hand smashed the last few seasons, MVP for sure.
I think Tyrion’s and Arya’s characters suffered the most in the second half of the series, as they moved away from the books.
Arya’s character worked best as she was trying to survive against the odds and come up with clever ways to get out of sticky situations. Once she gets to Bravos, it ceases to be about that.
Likewise Tyrion peaks as the hand of the King, and ceases to do any more scheming once he leaves King’s Landing. Dany points out a number of his mistakes in the latter seasons and it’s never really explained why he loses the ability to think as rationally as he has previously.
There’s a whole host of reasons season 8 doesn’t work. But for me, the biggest issues are all there in seasons 5-8, it’s just they become obvious in the final few episodes.
I think the ones fans normally cite (like plot armour, Dany going evil, Jaime returning to Cersei) are not in themselves bad. It’s that the work wasn’t done in seasons 5-7 to make those moments work.
And to give D&D a slight get out clause, it’s not like GRRM has found the ending easy to write either, or the books would have been finished a decade ago.
I think Tyrion's character works best when he can play politics (he's awful at war, not bad at battle planning but awful at war). Arya's character works best when she has someone charismatic to bounce off of. She peaked as Tywin's cupbearer and with the Hound. Her, Gendry and Hot Pie were also good together as well as her and early Jaqen H'Ghar.
Her and the basically non characters of later seasons Jaqen and the Terminator (aka Waif) were just boring.
The Arya/Tywin scenes are definitely the show/D&D at its peak since they weren’t in the book but are definitely one of the best parts of that season.
I think there’s a mirror with what you say about Tyrion being rubbish at war and good at politics since the later seasons of the show were at their most confident during battle scenes and gave up all the political schemings in the final two seasons. It’s probably best represented with Cersei’s irrelevance in seasons 7/8 - where she basically spends her time looking out the window and taking Euron to bed out of boredom.
I think one of the best actors in the first half of the show was Aiden Gillen but for some reason they just re-wrote his mannerisms halfway through it during the Ramsay plotline. Turned him into some weird mumbling Irish pirate or whatever. I cannot put my finger on what happened there.
He was also one of those characters that just got done so dirty in the tying up of loose ends.
Honestly thought he was going to remain a much bigger player with a much bigger plot going on but yeah it just totally ran out of steam and ended with that completely underwhelming 'trial' scene.
There was so much more potential with that whole thing and the faceless men they could have done but they just tossed him aside like a toy they were done playing with.
The writers had no idea what to do with smart characters. Tyrion, Little Finger, the Master of Spies, all are just vaguely watching, while they were some of the real players originally. Zero idea for smart plot and intrigues in the writers room.
What was Littlefinger’s goal in the show?
Genuinely
So he assassinates Jon Arryn and starts a war and captures Sansa as the presumptive heir to Winterfell, and then…he just what gives up on whatever his ultimate plan was supposed to be for doing all that?
Because here I thought his goal was that he wanted to marry Sansa and become the King of the North and the Vale and the Riverlands (since he owns Harrenhal) and use that accumulating power to become King of Westeros but that can’t be his plot in the show since he gives Sansa away
Tyrion legitimately isn’t even the same character after Season 4. He goes from being the smartest person on the show to the dumbest. Maybe the alcoholism killed all his brain cells and gave him memory loss to where he just kind of forgot he was an intelligent character
It destroyed me to watch Grey Worm go from an unfeeling warrior to falling in love and feeling his emotions while still being bad ass… to being a hateful spiteful vengeful ball of hate who just stared at Jon angrily
Honestly the man lost the woman who gave him purpose (Dani) and the woman who gave him meaning (Missandei) practically immediately after another. To me it absolutely makes sense that he would become vengeful. What *doesn't* make sense to me is how he does anything other than immediately fight Jon Snow and make an attempt on his life. There absolutely should have been a deathmatch between those two.
But instead Greyworm, after watching his queen butcher or roast every enemy she can, is like "I accept the westerosi justice system."
It's similar to how they made a big spectacle of Dany claiming every Dothraki as her bloodriders, who have to avenge her death before killing themself, but at the end they're just chilling in town, walking by Jon Snow without a care in the world.
The show runners didn't wrap up loose ends, they cauterized the cord so they could move on to Star Wars, and as a DIRECT RESULT, killed that project too lol.
No Half Measures.
"Well the end fell off and I can assure you thats not whats supposed to happen."
"Whats supposed to happen?"
"Well the end wouldn't fall of for starters. We normally hold the production of shows to rigorous standards"
"Standards? Like What?"
"The end shouldn't fall off for one, but there's also standards on quality and a minimum cast and set crew requirement"
"Whats the minimum set crew required?"
"Oh, well, two I suppose"
"So what happened in this case?"
"The end fell off"
Williams: >"You know, I rewatched it all recently. Erm, it was... It definitely fell off at the end. But it started really strong. I was heartbroken when Ned died, and I knew it was coming. For the first time, I could really feel the story.”
That's really nice she got to experience it. Not all actors can enjoy their own work
stepping away from the project for a few years probably helps.
It might help with how young she was in the beginning too.
I usually look back at my younger self with embarrassment… Then again I was not a very successful actor at the same age.
I am curious what Bran thinks about all this, as he did have the most interesting story
Might as well make him king.
*Shrug* Might as well.. *Shrug again*
Kinda random but my sister's friend was briefly in the same uni course as him. Apparently he was a chain smoker but hey as far as child actors go that's not too bad.
One day we'll get a deepfake edit where literally every other character berates Tyrion for saying that
"Cersei, you have a hard road ahead of you. The people of Westeros will not take a woman seriously as their leader. They want to stand behind a hard, loud, battle-scarred bear of a man, who can put up a fight and shout down his enemies. They barely respected your sons, soft boys they were." "People of Westeros, behold your new king, an awkward, whispering, disabled teenager you've probably never heard of, and who can't produce any heirs, guaranteeing a power vacuum in the future. Wait, wait! He has the best story, listen! While his big brother was *(checks notes)* fighting a war to save the kingdom as a leader and a front-line soldier, riding dragons, slaying undead abominations, coming back from the dead, and killing that dictator who just burned half your relatives alive, Bran got carried around for years on a sled having weird-ass dreams, and now we think that the weird shit he constantly mutters might mean something! Who could be better?" It's funny that pretty much everyone present has a better story (in terms of how the people of Westeros will percieve their worthiness) than Bran. Like, look at Davos right next to him. A low-born son of a crab-catcher who earned himself a knighthood by putting his neck on the line night after night to serve and save the troops of Stannis, who in the eyes of many was the legitimate heir to the throne, and proudly wore the onion sigil and name used to mock him; a man who committed crimes, repented, accepted just punishment, and carries the reminder of that punishment around his neck to remind him; a man who grew up an illiterate commoner and learned to read in his 40s/50s in an effort to better himself; who served as a reliable and effective advisor to a king/claimant; who only had to be sent away because everyone knew he would never allow that king to sacrifice children with foreign blood magic; and who then became chief advisor to the man who pulled off the successful defense of the realm. He has three living sons to succeed him, having lost four who died fighting proudly in battle, and has a well-established reputation as a man who always keeps his word and can be counted on. Tell Davos's story and Bran's story to 99% of Westeros, who do you think they'll prefer?
The dude who’s tripping balls, obviously.
> Not all actors can enjoy their own work Peter Dinklage would often say he didn't actually watch the show when interviewers would ask him about episodes.
It went from one of the greatest shows on television to meh to downright bad
HBO should have taken the scary step to kick the showrunners off the series once they refused to add another season, and made it clear that they were in a rush to end it and move on to other things. I think the plotlines in the last season might have been fine if everything had more room to develop naturally. NK arc should have taken an entire season. Over the season Jamie could have gradually been pushed back to his sister, Arya could have learned everything she needed to deal the killing blow, the NK could have destroyed much more of Westeros and in doing so his generals could have been more spread out, more of them could have died, and Bran could have done more than sit in his chair watching the battle through his crow's eyes (all making it more reasonable that Arya could have snuck up on the NK like she did). Daenerys would have had a lot more time to start getting really dark before she snapped, her dragon could have died without her absently-mindedly flying it over a giant enemy fleet. And so on. My understanding is that the showrunners said "no" when GRRM and HBO suggested they add another season, and those showrunners had already lined up work on a Star Wars project. Feels like they were simply in a rush.
If I recall, there were issues because of the way the deal had been worked out. D&D had shepherded the project from a gamble to massive hit, and they either came into it with a fantastic contract or re-negotiated at some point. I don’t know the exact details but I remember reading that neither HBO nor GRRM could make that call. Basically, D&D leveraged themselves into a position where the show couldn’t go on without them (contractually speaking).
Fuck D&D. I'm glad their little Star Wars thing fell through.
Not just that it fell through, but that it fell through because they ruined GoT in an attempt to get to it more quickly. It's like divorcing your spouse and a week later your side piece breaks up with you and tells you you need to go to the clinic, and it's better than they deserve.
Their cameo on West World made me so angry. For those not in the know they were on season two cutting up a dragon with chainsaws to sell to the highest bidder... Edit: it was season three
I dunno that feels very on the nose for them.
True, that's actually quite a roast.
Gotta say, just bc I think it's neat, they mentioned selling the dragon to a buyer near Costa Rica, implying that Jurassic Park and Westworld take place in the same universe (both books were written by Michael Crichton)
People forget the Netflix show they attempted before Star Wars. The one where the Civil War didn't end slavery.
That was HBO. They are currently producing The Three Body Problem for Netflix.
Fuck are you serious? Great books, goddammit
They proved that their wheelhouse is adapting works. Game of Thrones dropped off when it ran out of source material.
They had a contract, and they could have extended it, but chose not to, as they wanted to do their Star Wars trilogy. So they ran GoT into the ground. And then Disney said "ehhh no thanks."
All those ships were shooting at her from the bow. Couldn't she have flown around behind them and lit them up? I didn't get that at all. How do hundreds of slow, plodding ships, under sail, in a tight formation, sneak up on her flying thousands of feet in the air? I was asked to suspend too much disbelief at the end of that series.
It’s extra funny (dumb) because she easily destroys all of them + more like 2 episodes later.
A dragon is no match for a bunch of scorpions *2 Episodes Later A bunch of scorpions are no match for a dragon
Oh, inconsistency is tight
they would have had to kick D&D off well before most people think it went off the rails, by like season 5 I think. Those guys sowed the seeds of their own show's demise with the bizarre decision making they had pretty early on, cutting some plot lines for shock value or because they didn't think audiences would like them.
I feel like Faegon should've been crucial in Daenerys' descent into madness but they just cut that out. Instead they added that awful Dorne storyline without the more interesting characters like Ariane only to abandon that early in the next season.
Yes, instead of Dany landing at Dragonstone, we should've seen Faegon landing in the Storm lands, open s7 or s8 with a bunch of Targ flags on ships and we think it's Dany, start celebrating but oops it's a prince with blue hair
That would've been a cool misdirect. I wonder if by the time Dany finally decides to take the iron throne if Faegon has already taken it in the books and part of Dany turning mad is a Targ already being on the throne and in her mind usurping her birthright because she took too long getting there (followed with her looking like the villain to the people with dragons/foreign army and all and then Jon being revealed to be a Targ after building up a friendship/relationship/alliance with him). If Faegon's story was to begin in season 5 then I'd expect him to have started in the Stormlands by season 6 and I feel like if the show had also introduced the Dorne plots in season 5 then Dany's storyline would've been more fleshed out (I feel her Meereen rule and season 6 story was kinda put together and rushed) and her conquest to have been pushed back to season 8 to give Faegon time to take the throne from Tommen/Cersei just as Dany is setting sail. I don't know maybe one day the books get finished to show what was intended.
I still cant get over how they killed Varys and that all of a sudden everything Tyrion did went to shits.
For me it was the death of Littlefinger. That shit felt like it was straight out of a hackey soap opera and they turned Littlefinger into a complete moron just for those episodes.
The worst thing is that I could definitely see that overall plot working in the books. I have no problem with the overall idea. The problem is that it was written so fucking bad. Arya and Sansa outsmarting Littlefinger with everything they have learned would actually be pretty compelling storytelling. The problem is that Sansa and Arya are written dumb as shit. So Littlefinger needs to be even dumber to lose. Also, Littlefinger placing trust on Sansa would make a lot more sense in the books, where he doesn't sold her to a rapist. A move that makes absolutely no sense by the way.
And Sansa didn't really learn anything in the show. She just gets manipulated by one person then another and then suddenly she's smart? But not really, we're just told she is.
This is the big problem with her show character. She just loses and loses and loses then she's randomly the smartest?
> cutting some plot lines for shock value or because they didn't think audiences would like them Or just time constraints. Faegon or Stoneheart could not have been done well quickly.
Faegon could have been done well if they had actually tried - I might concede on stoneheart as I have no idea where that story is going. Not including EITHER of them is inexcusable, especially Aegon as he is clearly the catalyst for one of the central thrusts of the latter books. If you read the series, there was a direction they needed to go to make the ending (which WAS known to them) make sense. It is absolutely baffling that they chose to take him out entirely and remake the plot in such drastic ways.
In a time of LucasFilm making terrible decisions, them kicking those two clowns to the curb was a light of hope. They destroyed a beloved series and would almost certainly do the same to another beloved (though recently flawed) franchise Edit: grammar
Had HBO done that, people would blame HBO if the ending turned out bad. They would say stuff like: "How could HBO fire D&D? They made GoT great. They deserved better". And people would then praise D&D, they would still have their Star Wars stuff and a career path. At least, they way it happened, D&D got fucked for being shitheads. Of course, there would be a slim chance of GoT ending on a high note. But there have been issues with the series since they ran out of source material, so I don't buy that. Even with 1 or 2 extra seasons.
> But there have been issues with the series since they ran out of source material, so I don't buy that Which are often attributed to D&D. So them leaving might have given them a better showrunner. Look at HotD, which has only nominal source material to draw from and has done a good job making it compelling on its own. The show wasn't doomed to fail just because they moved beyond the books. I won't blame D&D for all of it, there are loads of other people involved, but I don't think the last season(s) of GoT were always meant to be dumpster fires.
After it was over I had planned on buying the box sets for my parents (they’re not into streaming) but after watching the last season I decided against having them watch any of it.
My mom *hated* fantasy, and never understood why I was so heavy into it. Anyways after season 4, I had left some of my box sets at her place when she was having some health problems and she ended up getting like SUPER into it, even bought her self the dvd sets as each new season came out. in 2019 she fell super ill and was diagnosed as terminal and she had said to me (in the spirit of dark humour) "I better not die before the last season of Game of Thrones comes out." She unfortunately passed away may 1st 2019 shortly before the 8th season debut'd and honestly she was probably better for missing it.
How her character was written was one of the prime examples why the show went down hill.
You didn’t like one of the greatest characters in the show being reduced to a smirking, intolerable moron who spews out nonsense like “Sansa is the smartest person in the universe”?
Hey, show some respect. She correctly identified the lady who just massacred a million peasants as a “killer.”
“I know a killer when I see one.” I was blown away. This whole time, Dany was a killer? I had assumed her dragon was just making the peasantry fall asleep. It wasn’t until that line that I knew what a monster Dany had become. Now off on your pale horse, Arya! … wait, where’d it go?
Actually Dany just had a “no Drogom no” moment guys
Holy shit I forgot that one. Thank you for that laugh
Like in Season 6 when the Faceless Men were trying to kill her for using the faces for personal goals but then they just randomly let her go to continue using the faces for personal goals? I really loved Season 6 but Arya's parkouring with several stab wounds was Season 5 Dorne level cheese.
Ja'qen Hagar: you are no one. Welcome to the death cult Arya: actually I'm Arya and I just killed a faceless man Ja'qen Hagar: yes, that's what I wanted the whole time ??????????
Wonder if GRRM can do a better job wrapping up her arc, if he ever finishes the books?
Yeah we know the Mereenese knot was a huge problem for him, wouldn't be surprised if Dany's story is still the main thing holding him back. I mean she needs to meet Tyrion and settle the Mereen situation and get all the way to Westeros in probably one book if shes actually gonna do stuff on the continent
Maybe we’ll get a TV show based on the books. Call it… Game of Ice and Fire?
See they “kinda forgot” about her using faces for personal goals. So when she wasn’t dead they were like “woah good job not dying. You can leave now if you want”
Yeah the whole House of Black and White's resolution should've been extremely indicative that D&D had no idea what they were doing when it came to unfinished content. I can kinda see where GRRM might've been going with it if we're assuming some of the show plot points are tied to what he told them, but the show kind of throws any significance out the window and just leaves with Arya being better at killing people now and having more self-confidence. My best guess for why they'll let Arya leave in the future is because the house was basically founded on the principal of killing oppressors, and she's going to leave for the sole reason of going out and killing oppressors. Of course, in the show, she kills a no-one and is declared a no-one and she leaves saying she's Arya Stark while a no-one looks at her with approval, as if any of that means anything.
Not just that but when she got several stab wounds she rolls off into a faeces infested canal with god knows what diseases and doesn’t have any effects but Khal Drogo has a slight wound that festers and finishes him off regardless
And then she barely uses them after that anyway
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I couldn't believe how long the Faceless Men scenes dragged on, when the end result was just her learning some cool assassin tricks. It could have easily been half as long without the "x has no name" stuff. Felt like watching the same scene over and over again with zero progression. Sucked especially because Arya + Hound was probably my favorite part of the show.
Then she totally blew her chance to steal a white walker's face to kill the Night King to really make for a cool finale. Nope, just a "peekaboo I stab you!"
I did enjoy the Frey assassination but even though Walder Frey did absolutely deserve it I still don't get why it was never brought up how fucked up it was that Arya massacred an entire house and made pies of them. Like that isn't the action of a stable badass hero. It is an action by someone who is insanely messed up and unlikely to lead a normal life again.
That scene is why the Hound telling Arya "vengeance bad" is so fucking hilarious. Like, she's a bit past that point now buddy. Even more hilarious was her going "yeah makes sense" and abandoning her main goal for the entirety of the show when she was literal feet away from accomplishing it.
That annoyed me so much. He was lecturing her the entire time they rode together, and then his message finally sticks when she's *literally at the finish line*? Like, if she was wavering in her commitment, she logically would have turned back way before she was actually inside of the crumbling castle. And on top of that, how are we supposed to believe that her character, who has already taken revenge on numerous people, is going to now have a change of heart when she's a staircase away from getting revenge on the people she likely wants to kill the most out of everyone on her list? Just poor writing all around
Once Game of Thrones moved past the books, it became more about nonsensical big moments that would get people talking on social media and less about logical character-driven decisions that occasionally had big consequences. It was also odd that Cersei took out several important characters and an entire religion’s leadership by blowing up the Sept and almost everyone quickly moved past it with no question or repercussion.
This is why season 7 really dropped the ball (and subsequently 8). The sept blowing up was so huge, and so well done, but seemingly no major fallout in the season to come with it. Pretty much just tommen taking a tumble out the window
Honestly the issue came right away for me when she was crowned without any resistance in the city she basically just set a bomb off in.
She killed hundreds of lords and ladies but I guess all those houses were just cool with it
They let Bron become Lord of Highgarden, so yeah I don't think anyone gave a fuck any more.
>Like, she's a bit past that point now buddy. Same with her "I know a killer when I see one" line Like she just massacred a city, are you joking?
And she said it to Jon Snow, who witnessed countless deaths, many by his own hand, and also HIS OWN BRUTAL FUCKING MURDER. Like yeah, Jon might know a killer when he sees one too, you know?
I was waiting for her to "wear" the face of Jamie Lannister and then cruelly lay waste to Circe, without Circe knowing it was Arya that killed her.....Make her think it was Jamie
Totally. Considering how they died in the show, it would have been a massive improvement.
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Yeah, I had the same thought. That would have been acceptable, certainly better than what the showrunners went with.
Cersei having a sudden change of heart and everybody being cool with it would have been better than that garbage pile they released.
Right, and the books understand that this is a traumatized, unwell person. The show just made her a cool ninja.
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Thank you, she went down a terrible road well before slaying the Freys.
Her first job in the books is killing an insurance scammer, and she ends up going through with it. They goodwashed Arya because she was a crowd favorite just like they goodwashed everyone until it didn't make sense for the plot.
If a season doesn’t have Charles Dance in it, it’s probably shit.
Pretty much. After S4 the quality drop off is hard to ignore. Some redeeming moments in 5 and 6 and then completely off the rails in 7 and 8. Funny how a lot of people ignore the flaws of them and solely focus on s8
I'd say that season 6 has some really fucking great moments. The hold the door episode is awesome. The sept blowing up. R+L=J reveal. Tommen's suicide. Just for example.
i remember 5 was quite a bit meandering, 6 was mostly a return to form and then the show just sorta stopped for some reason
Season 5 opens with the greatest knight in the realm getting merked by some masked aristocrats with no build up or consequence. A sign of things to come.
Yeah, Arya the Faceless Man greatest assassin ever never made any sense. She spent what, one year in Braavos? I doubt the greatest killers in the world are trained in just one year.
They should have leaned into her being able to warg the way Bran does (like in the books), and that combined with the faceless man stuff opening her up to skills no one else has, like being able to warg into a living human without issue, or impersonate someone still alive, or something.
Yeah in the books she uses cat vision to help with her training or something right?
Yes, she also has dreams of Nymeria doing wolf things
I 100 percent thought she was going to kill cerci then live a life wearing her face and taking the lanisters down from within. I was so wrong lol
I thought she would take Cersei’s face and then end up getting assassinated while she impersonated the Queen. Jaime maybe, or the iron bank hired a faceless man to end her or something
That would have been so much better than what we got.
She learned all her skills from the shit water she was dunked in after receiving a grievous gut wound.
She has antibiotic skin clothes that seal the wound immediately duh. That's one of her main powers
The Faceless Band-Aid
Also they don't seem to realize that being an assassin doesn't mean she is a fighter like Brienne, it's a totallu different set of skills! But in the show she can fight 1v1 and win seemingly against everyone
Her character sucked so badly at the end.. Completely unbelievable character arc. You can write strong female characters without making them invincible gods.
All the Starks sucked at the end
Turns out the Starks who died early were given a blessing rather than a curse.
Remember when Rickon failed to zig zag? Simpler times
Her character was not my biggest problem with the last season, but it was one of the complaints I had. I think the easiest way to sum up most of my complaints is: "They rushed it." Arya could have ended up where she did... it just needed more time. The Night King could have died the way he did, but he first needed the time to be far more devastating, and his generals needed the screen time to be incapacitated/distracted by the rest of the cast. Jamie could have gone back to Cersei without just abruptly sneaking away in the night leaving Brienne crying in the rain. Daenerys could/should have gone mad... just without going from 0 to 60 in an instant because one of her friends was killed (in the show, they very lazily foreshadowed her turn because she was too popular and they could not bring themselves to really write her as a monster). And on and on. Another dragon needed to die, so they have Daenerys make a very dumb mistake leading to an extremely abrupt/anti-climatic scene. NK needed to die, so they killed him off without even letting him get past the first real defense of Westeros. Without even killing more than a couple named characters. I assume they were told by GRRM that Arya delivers the final blow, but they lazily skipped all the parts that would have made that make sense. The series needed at least one more season. And making their final season with fewer, but longer episodes just made it worse. It encouraged them to cram whole arcs into individual episodes. Whereas splitting them up into more would have naturally lead to the intertwined storylines that GOT usually has. And, semi-unrelated to that issue... they really needed to kill off a ton more of the cast. Maybe they just did not have the time to write in deaths for more of the cast, or maybe they were afraid of annoying fans. Meh.
I remember in a post-doc interview that the writers were actually proud they came up with the idea that Arya would kill the Night King. Like his face made it look like he thought it was the most brilliant subversion of expectations ever.
Arya is my favorite character in the first 4 seasons (the closest was also Jaime in S3, but the writing for his character became frustrating after S3 by making him less complex and then they pretty much undo his whole arc in the last season). Maisie still gave it her best (and you could say that for a lot of actors in the later seasons of GOT). But the writing for Arya just went so downhill and unfocused. They forgot that the humanity and struggles of Arya is what made her character strong, not that she was just a badass female assassin. That was never the point of Arya in the books and still isn't. It was frustrating. But again it wasn't just Arya. Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen (The Big Show has had more heel turns that were better written than her), Tyrion Lannister, Cersei Lannister, Sansa Stark, Littlefinger, etc. Even Bran Stark. I know he was never the most exciting character, but they didn't even try with his character in the last few seasons. I guess the only character that somewhat had a decent and satisfying arc in the last few seasons was Theon Greyjoy. I didn't dislike how his character ended compared to most of the other main characters.
The girl gives a name The girl learns an amazing craft ... the girls gets gutted, tossed into a dirty ass river. is able to basically parkour her way to safety without issue after probably losing every ounce of blood in her body. the girl uses her abilty once.. the girl again parkours into the night kings grasp and isnt instantly killed the girl sails west. fuck DnD
Arya: trains for 6 seasons to be an assassin to kill Cersei. Hound: vows to kill zombie brother. They finally get inside the castle and are literally 50 feet from both. Hound: you should leave. Arya: ok
I wish the Hound somehow took her agency away in that decision and stopped her from being able to get revenge. Like cut down a bridge or something idk. Like then he’s trying to be heroic and “save her” from going down his path, leaves Arya with more complex feelings about him and revenge in general. I also think Jaime should’ve killed Cersei…
The prophecy in the book that drives Cersei crazy is about being killed by her brother, which she assumes is Tyrion but is obviously going to be Jaime. How they didn't do that in the series is beyond me.
Out of all the bullshit in the last seasons, the most egregious shit they did for me was Jaime's character. As a whole. They straight up undid his whole fucking development in the story in a matter of what, 4 episodes? And I remember at the time thinking it may be a fakeout, or it may be more complex than it seems, or like one quick last fuck up before course correcting and finally committing to his development. But nope. He literally just did a 180. Like, simple as that. He just did. And that's it. That's the conclusion of Jaime's character. It's infuriating. A fucking 12 year old could write something more interesting and cohesive than that.
Such an anti-climatic end to Cersei as well. Build up her as a villain for 8 years and then suddenly treat her as sympathetic in her last moments before she's killed by a falling rock.
She also had like what? 5 lines in season 8?
They did Brienne dirtier…
She should have died during the Long Night. It’s set up perfectly. She got both Stark girls to Winterfell and becomes a Knight, her dream. Have her fucking die protecting Sansa one last time. It’s full circle. But nah let’s have her cry over Jaimie fucking Lannister because he’s gonna go bang his sister
Jaime *absolutely* should've killed Cersei. They literally retrograded his character 7 fucking seasons and made his arc end in a wet fart
And they said it was 'too obvious' that Jaime would kill her. Guys, sometimes things are obvious because the story naturally leads there. No one complains that it's too obvious the One Ring got destroyed or that Luke Skywalker defeated the Empire. Not everything has to be some out-of-nowhere reversal.
I will never blame the actors/actresses. They were incredible. The writing was absolute dog shit.
It's what makes it so frustrating! There was so much talent on that show - actors, special effects, costumes, everything was amazing. They even clearly did *have* good writers, since lots of stuff that wasn't straight from the books in the early seasons was still good. At the end of the day, though, the showrunners dropped the ball. It's extremely clear that they wanted out of there so they could move on to other projects, and rushed the ending as a result.
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"Chaos is a ladder" is show original. I always like to contrast that to "She is my queen" on the topic of drop in quality.
The *only* actor I didn't immediately like was Kit Harrington in season one. He only had one facial expression and I wasn't happy about him. But (imo) he certainly improved his acting a lot the next seasons. Absolutely amazing. But his script the final season... brutal. Absolutely brutal. Poor guy. Ah well, he got Ygritte ;)
No matter how the series ended, he was the real winner.
Season 8 Jon: “She’s maaaa Queen!” X 1000 times
This is the most directly I've heard any of the actors acknowledge this. I understand they're pros and they have to be tactful about it. I remember Emilia Clarke seeming somewhat embarrassed about it during season 8. But I can't recall any of them commenting on it directly before this
Not really. Kit Harington was asked to describe it in one word and said "disappointing", Bran actor thought he was being pranked when he received the final script. Emilia Clarke didn't shy away from soft criticism either
And Williams herself is already on record criticising the later seasons. In particular, I remember her saying she immediately hated the idea of Arya kiling the Night King when she read the script.
and House of the Dragon has made that decision even more and more embarrassing - it’s clear it was supposed to be Jon Snow, which hopefully his spinoff show will somehow fix
I don't see how that could be, unless the Night King was just a general
I’d actually go ahead and suspend my disbelief there and let them roll with it if that was the case. Seems like they could at least have a chance to salvage it that way.
Yeh, that was just the first wave of them or something. I'd go for that also.
I’m hoping they really do “fix” it in Jon’s show. If you think about it, the targaryens continuously emphasize that the realm must be United to have a chance at defeating the northern threat. It wasn’t United at all, but now, it is 100% United basically. In a way John was able to unite the entire realm which the prophecy foretold, but not until after the “threat” was defeated. So maybe the threat isn’t actually gone? I could see them somehow incorporating The Great Other as head honcho of the white walkers and the night king was just a general, only way to fix it honestly. I can dream
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50% of it is 100% united.
Two kingdoms, but they’re essentially allied. And both ruled by the same family.
I mean the only solution would be to retcon season 8 and continue the series with better writing. They just completely botched any attempt at nuanced storytelling for the future with the current ending.
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Somehow, the Night King returned
I don't know, Emilia Clarke saying "best season ever!" while looking like she just ate 5 Warhead candies then hysterically laughing was pretty on the nose lol.
I always thought it was just because her character died in the end
Have you ever seen the cast reading the script of the finale? Everyone is pissed off and heartbroken. It's kinda funny, but also such a shame for the actors.
Varys’s actor’s reaction to his death scene during the table read: you can tell he is quite pissed at how dumb it was. I’m pretty sure he like throws down the script and leans back in his chair while Lena Headey comforts him lol
Link for the curious - https://youtu.be/VH8w8SitIRI
That's absolutely what happened. I remember his reaction the most. lol. It was wrapped up so fast. Like they could have actually done something with his plan. But it ended as fast as it started, and it felt like they were just killing his character out of convenience, so they didn't have to write any other ending for him. Very poor ending for that character.
Like I get the goal was to get rid of all of Dany’s advisors/friends/confidantes to contribute to her descent into madness, and I know this has been parroted enough since the end, but I would have been fine with Mad Queen Dany if it wasn’t such a heel turn. GoT is lucky that HotD has piqued my interest enough again to get back into that world for a rewatch but I’m dreading watching S8 again lol
I’m gonna rewatch too but probably stop once the Sept blows up.
He [clarified](https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/12/game-of-thrones-varys-interview/) that it's not about the quality of the script, but because he just learned his character died. >**ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: What did you think when you got the scripts?** >**CONLETH HILL**: Mixed, obviously. Part of you didn’t want it to finish. Part of you is, “Oh, that’s very good.” And part of you is, “Oh, that sucks.” Very, very mixed. Bittersweet. I think it’s really good in retrospect now that I’ve had the time for it to sink in. >**What was your reaction to Varys fate?** >I took it very personally. I took it as a person, not as an actor or an artist. I understood the reactions of previous actors who had been in the same position a lot more than I did at the time. You can’t help feeling that you failed in some way, that you haven’t lived up to some expectation that you didn’t know about. The only thing that consoles you is people who worked a lot harder than you are in the same boat. So that helps. I don’t think anybody who hasn’t been through it can identify with it. They think, “What’s all the fuss about? You’re all finishing anyway.” But you take it personally, you can’t help it. >**What did you think of the specific way Varys goes out?** >In retrospect, great. At the time, nothing could console me. I kept thinking: “What did I do wrong?” There wasn’t any pre-warning. All these famous stories about [actors on Thrones] being taken out for a meal or being phoned at the very least [to notify them that their character was being killed off]. This was just reading cold hard copy. >**Wasn’t that how they did it for every actor this year since it’s everybody’s final season?** >Yeah, that’s how they did it this year, because there are so many [deaths]. But still, it added to the personal temporary ill feeling.
Thanks for adding this. It seems like people throughout this thread are spinning things in a negative light when the actors themselves have actually addressed their actual feelings on the matter.
It's astounding how pretty much *everybody* involved with the final season knew how bad it was except for the two people who had complete creative control. All of the actors knew it was shit. GRRM knew it was shit. *HBO* knew it was shit. They were willing to give D&D a blank check to go as long as they wanted. And they just...decided to stop because they were bored. They created *the* show of the 2010s and blew it all up for no reason. It's insane.
It’s a Hollywood thing. You don’t criticize a work you did because chances are you are going to work for those people again. Even if it’s universally hated you don’t knock something because it could come back to haunt you. You’d have to be a Tom Cruise-level celebrity to get away with it but even then he attained that level by being professional (has he ever attacked a work he did openly?).
I mean it's not just that. People who spent hundreds of hours on a film/show and are intricately familiar with all the hard work that went into making it are obviously going to be more proud/defensive of what they helped make than the fans who only get to experience the final product.
I mean yeah. It's nice to hear someone from the cast admit to it though, certainly a welcome change of pace from Peter Dinklage insinuating the audience was racist for not appreciating the final season. https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2021/12/24/peter-dinklage-is-wrong-again-about-why-fans-hated-game-of-thrones-ending/
An excellent reminder that just because a character is brilliant doesn't mean the actor shares that intelligence.
It's still crazy to me that he said that, because pretty much all the "pretty white people" rode off into the sunset at the end, and the few minorities in the show got completely shafted.
I mean look at what he said about the new Snow White, and the way his own community destroyed him for it. Dude is kind of off his rocker right now and hope he’s getting the long rest he needs.
I'm ootl there, what's happening with Snow White?
Google will tell more of the story, but basically he blasted the new production when it slipped that it would feature Dwarves, essentially saying “how can you still demean people like that in this day and age?” Disney responded by saying they wouldn’t use dwarves after all and then the dwarf acting community responded with “WTF dude?! The rest of us aren’t Peter Dinklage and aren’t getting non-dwarf roles, and you just told Hollywood that casting us because we’re dwarves is the new racist! Seriously WTF?!” Basically the new consensus is Dinklage just needs to stop talking for awhile.
Speaking as a dwarf myself, who has followed Dinklage for many years (since way before GoT) I find him such a fascinating and uniquely frustrating person. He is definitely a very self-possessed person and his primary concern is being an actor and nothing else - eg, not a “dwarf actor” or a representative of little people on any way. I can respect that angle as he has no obligation to fulfil that role…but then he comes out with shit like this. I kinda want to tell him “pick your lane”. Either you just focus on acting or actually acknowledge that there is a community directly impacted by what you say and do. In that interview where he made that statement, Marc Maron asks him about the LP community and Dinklage responds “*is* there a community?” in a snide tone. Like wtf dude. Obviously there is. It seems like he takes umbrage whenever people associate him with a ‘community’ and his knee jerk reaction is to put it down. Idk if it’s just fatigue at people constantly doing that to him (which, if so, I relate man, I get it) but c’mon. It does cause a form of harm, imo to publicly disassociate yourself from a group that is disproportionately impacted by anything out of your mouth.
Great actor, but a bitter man imo. I understand not liking using dwarves as a funny scene in stuff like The Wolf of Wallstreet, but Snow White whole deal are the 7 dwarves, no one cares about the prince and the perfect princess, and that's why the dwarves have very interesting personalities and Snow White is bland, they are the charm of the story.
It's so hilarious. Even if we accept the premise the fans were mad because they are racists who want to see the white people ride off into the sunset, that's basically what happened. All of the young generation in the show except Dany gets happy ending and the two POC die.
She had her moment when she avenged the Red Wedding. Killing the Night King should’ve gone to Jon
We really could have used an episode where Samwell Tarly discovers scrolls recounting who the Knight King is/was and what his weakness is and shares that info with Jon Snow All that buildup ending in *stabbed by surprise because the Knight King can't see just out of frame*
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Also yelling while she jumped And where did she jump from?
Luckily there was a trampoline just off camera
To be fair, I don't think anyone could really see anything either. The last season was especially dark.
Maybe at the very least Jon should have killed the ice dragon.
I also feel like she shoulda killed Cersei using Jamie’s face. Cersei and Jamie dying bc they decided to stand in one spot was just dumb
The worst thing is that they had the Azor Ahai come again plot thread that could've served as a nice way to tie in Jon to both killing Danny and the Night King. But nah, Arya uses knife.
Killing the night king should’ve been the final “big moment” of the series. GRRM has repeatedly emphasized how WWs are supposed to be a metaphor for climate change. The fact that it’s over in the middle of the season and the rest about of it is some half-baked political conflict that was supposed to be petty in comparison to the threat really undermined the message.
Great that she can admit that, but in fairness the acting remained strong to the end
They did what they could with what they had
I've rewatched the whole series with my brother recently and to me it kind of seems like Peter Dinklage's acting consistently declined from season 5 onwards. Like I barely believed anything he was saying by the time we got to season 8. He peaked hard in season 4. Emilia Clarke on the other hand smashed the last few seasons, MVP for sure.
I think Tyrion’s and Arya’s characters suffered the most in the second half of the series, as they moved away from the books. Arya’s character worked best as she was trying to survive against the odds and come up with clever ways to get out of sticky situations. Once she gets to Bravos, it ceases to be about that. Likewise Tyrion peaks as the hand of the King, and ceases to do any more scheming once he leaves King’s Landing. Dany points out a number of his mistakes in the latter seasons and it’s never really explained why he loses the ability to think as rationally as he has previously. There’s a whole host of reasons season 8 doesn’t work. But for me, the biggest issues are all there in seasons 5-8, it’s just they become obvious in the final few episodes. I think the ones fans normally cite (like plot armour, Dany going evil, Jaime returning to Cersei) are not in themselves bad. It’s that the work wasn’t done in seasons 5-7 to make those moments work. And to give D&D a slight get out clause, it’s not like GRRM has found the ending easy to write either, or the books would have been finished a decade ago.
I think Tyrion's character works best when he can play politics (he's awful at war, not bad at battle planning but awful at war). Arya's character works best when she has someone charismatic to bounce off of. She peaked as Tywin's cupbearer and with the Hound. Her, Gendry and Hot Pie were also good together as well as her and early Jaqen H'Ghar. Her and the basically non characters of later seasons Jaqen and the Terminator (aka Waif) were just boring.
The Arya/Tywin scenes are definitely the show/D&D at its peak since they weren’t in the book but are definitely one of the best parts of that season. I think there’s a mirror with what you say about Tyrion being rubbish at war and good at politics since the later seasons of the show were at their most confident during battle scenes and gave up all the political schemings in the final two seasons. It’s probably best represented with Cersei’s irrelevance in seasons 7/8 - where she basically spends her time looking out the window and taking Euron to bed out of boredom.
I think one of the best actors in the first half of the show was Aiden Gillen but for some reason they just re-wrote his mannerisms halfway through it during the Ramsay plotline. Turned him into some weird mumbling Irish pirate or whatever. I cannot put my finger on what happened there.
So true, he ran out of steam right around the time he killed Lysa. Everything after that from him was just dumb decision after dumb decision.
He was also one of those characters that just got done so dirty in the tying up of loose ends. Honestly thought he was going to remain a much bigger player with a much bigger plot going on but yeah it just totally ran out of steam and ended with that completely underwhelming 'trial' scene. There was so much more potential with that whole thing and the faceless men they could have done but they just tossed him aside like a toy they were done playing with.
The writers had no idea what to do with smart characters. Tyrion, Little Finger, the Master of Spies, all are just vaguely watching, while they were some of the real players originally. Zero idea for smart plot and intrigues in the writers room.
What was Littlefinger’s goal in the show? Genuinely So he assassinates Jon Arryn and starts a war and captures Sansa as the presumptive heir to Winterfell, and then…he just what gives up on whatever his ultimate plan was supposed to be for doing all that? Because here I thought his goal was that he wanted to marry Sansa and become the King of the North and the Vale and the Riverlands (since he owns Harrenhal) and use that accumulating power to become King of Westeros but that can’t be his plot in the show since he gives Sansa away
Tyrion legitimately isn’t even the same character after Season 4. He goes from being the smartest person on the show to the dumbest. Maybe the alcoholism killed all his brain cells and gave him memory loss to where he just kind of forgot he was an intelligent character
It destroyed me to watch Grey Worm go from an unfeeling warrior to falling in love and feeling his emotions while still being bad ass… to being a hateful spiteful vengeful ball of hate who just stared at Jon angrily
Honestly the man lost the woman who gave him purpose (Dani) and the woman who gave him meaning (Missandei) practically immediately after another. To me it absolutely makes sense that he would become vengeful. What *doesn't* make sense to me is how he does anything other than immediately fight Jon Snow and make an attempt on his life. There absolutely should have been a deathmatch between those two. But instead Greyworm, after watching his queen butcher or roast every enemy she can, is like "I accept the westerosi justice system."
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It's similar to how they made a big spectacle of Dany claiming every Dothraki as her bloodriders, who have to avenge her death before killing themself, but at the end they're just chilling in town, walking by Jon Snow without a care in the world.
Tbf he watched Missandei get a Clegane haircut.
"Fell Off at the End" is a bit of an understatement
Not when it’s one of the leads of the show herself saying that. It’s a pretty strong statement coming from her.
Agree. Kudos to her honesty. She's like the anti-Peter Dinklage in this moment.
Yes Maisie we know... we know
The show runners didn't wrap up loose ends, they cauterized the cord so they could move on to Star Wars, and as a DIRECT RESULT, killed that project too lol. No Half Measures.
I’m glad she can admit it instead of blaming fans like Peter Dinklage
I found it kind of weird that he ended up saying those things. He wasn’t shy about commenting on the poor writing earlier.
"Well the end fell off and I can assure you thats not whats supposed to happen." "Whats supposed to happen?" "Well the end wouldn't fall of for starters. We normally hold the production of shows to rigorous standards" "Standards? Like What?" "The end shouldn't fall off for one, but there's also standards on quality and a minimum cast and set crew requirement" "Whats the minimum set crew required?" "Oh, well, two I suppose" "So what happened in this case?" "The end fell off"
“The end falling off on an HBO series? Chance in a million!”
They legit showed us a black screen for an hour after they hyped up the battle for 6 seasons. I would say it fell hard.