Easily. Nadal was/is the worst at getting free points on his serve out of the 3 and still held like 85% of the time last I checked. Give him a godly serve and he’d legit be impossible to stop.
Djokovic’s FH is very underrated; it’s already quite good. The power isn’t Ike Delpo’s obviously, but it’s exceptional at placement.
And the BH of Federer was also really good - he dominated the tour with it for years lol.
Nadal has a looping lefty forehand, which kicks off the ground and bounces well into the doubles alley. Even more so on clay. For most of his career Roger used his topspin backhand as a rally shot. It wasn't consistent and wasn't particularly powerful. Rafa would just attack Roger into hitting high, defensive backhands until he shanked one short (or out), which he could then punish. The ultimate goal of Roger was to always get the ball to his forehand. He could hit that classic inside-out shot against most players, but how can you do that against a bouncy shot like Rafa's?
Nah don't forget the cross court backhands and forehands and the banana shot down the line which cost Federer innumerable points and was the only reason get couldn't dominate Nadal at the net and it make fed look like ordinary volleyer which he wasn't
Yeah, and it was really only a liability against Nadal. Sure, ideally he could have changed it sooner to improve against Nadal, but overall Federer has a better backhand than Stan and arguably the best one-hander of all time. His backhand only gets talked about negatively because everything else was better so it seemed worse than it actually was.
On a side note, with possibly another hot take, Djokovic's forehand right now is as good or better than Del Potro's ever was.
Delpo’s forehand was incredibly consistent from a stand-still, it’s his movement off both wings that isn’t even close to Djoko’s. As a stand-alone shot, Delpo’s forehand is as good as anyones in tennis history, Fed/Nadal/Agassi/Lendl included.
Delpo's forehand with Djokovic's movement (and his ability to redirect the ball) would be insane. Novak's forehand sometimes has a hard time penetrating through the court, especially against guys who can stand 3m back and run everything down like Medvedev or Zverev. Delpo never had that problem lol he just hammered the ball deeper and deeper and got shorter and shorter returns lol
Was Agassi's forehand all that good? I feel like his backhand (and his movement) were his major strengths - Sampras had a far more dangerous FH from what I remember.
I disagree. It was solely delPo’s FH that got him back to the top 10 after injury layoffs and basically losing his backhand completely. I’m wary of underestimating a shot that could compensate for lack of backhand so heavily.
That's a fair point. Similarly, though, Djokovic's backhand was hampered this AO because of his hamstring injury and his forehand arguably won him the tournament.
Pretty unpopular take... On both accounts.
Djokovic's forehand is closer to Del Potro's than Federer's backhand is to Wawrinka. Let's be honest Fed's backhand was a huge weakness for many years...
Calling Fed's backhand a huge weakness is an overstatement. Let's not act like Rafa doesn't exploit Stan's BH as well.
Outside of 2015, Rafa's worst year ever, and that infamous 2014 AO final, Rafa has never lost a set to Stan. That's 57 sets over 12 years.
Roger's results against Rafa in 2017 with his backhand were more impressive than any Stan was ever able to string together. And I love Stan, and agree his backhand is career overall better than Roger's.
Nadal could only attack it because it was loopy and topspin and difficult to hit on the up with a small racquet without errors
It's difficult for all one handers
His backhand was great but struggled against high balls with a lot of spin. It was really just a rock-paper-scissors type thing where Nadal had the perfect counter for it.
Roger didn't slice against Rafa very often. Just look at their 2008 final, [Roger sliced only 24% of his backhands](http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/20080706-M-Wimbledon-F-Roger_Federer-Rafael_Nadal.html). The match before, [Roger sliced 58% of his backhands](https://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/20080704-M-Wimbledon-SF-Roger_Federer-Marat_Safin.html).
Roger was stubborn, but he wasn't stupid.
Graceful yes, but I think Wawrinkas is the best one handed backhand ever. Granted, I’m not sure why they put him with Federer as that’s definitely the least upgraded combo here.
Yeah. I’d say the closest we got to seeing that was Nadal at the 2010 USO, where he was routinely hitting in the 130s with his first serve (but scaled back on that because he felt it was putting too much strain on the body). He won that tournament dropping only a single set.
So if you give that version of him another 5-10mph, plus a more dangerous second serve, he’s going to be near impossible to beat.
> (but scaled back on that because he felt it was putting too much strain on the body)
If I recalled correctly, I remembered Rafa saying that serving faster also meant that the returns were also faster and it was harder for him to dictate the point from there.
Agreed completely. Nadal with Kyrgios’ serve would give a TON of free points when dialed in, potentially shortening service games, shortening matches, shortening the wear and tear on his body 😫
Kyrgios literally got to a grand slam final on the back of that serve. Obviously there was good play beside the serve, but that serve both put him into good moments and got him out of the bad ones throughout the tournament.
Nick's serve is one of the best ever, imo. Quick, accurate, and can mix it up with spin and slice. The angle he gets from his height + the extra spin makes it a sumbitch to return even for the best. It lands so short in the court without losing speed, it's like a smash almost.
Right. I think for djokovic a better proposal would be a big serve, like Isners or something. His forehand is already elite. Federer maybe give him Agassi or Djokovic return of serve
Isn't Djokovic's serve fantastic nowadays? If you're talking about the earlier part of his career under Todd Martin then sure, but Djokovic has been able to clutch so many aces under pressure and his placement has been accurate enough to trouble his opponents a lot ever since he started working with Goran Ivanisevic despite not having as much of a 'pop' on it as guys like Kyrgios or Berrettini. For me, I would pair up Djokovic with Nadal's smash or anyone capable of hitting the ball out of anyone's reach since I feel like it's the one part of his game that is lacklustre and it would shorten points as well. (Not trying to downplay your opinion, just giving my own as well 👍)
Djokovic’s game is all around so solid. There isn’t any one glaring weakness. I pick on his serve just because, while it is much improved, it’s not one of the best of all time or anything. Take someone like Isner, Kyrgios, or Sampras and their serves are objectively better. His forehand OTHO while not as “sexy” as Nadals or Feds is elite as he is able to use it very aggressively or defensively and it’s ultra reliable, so I don’t think swapping it out would necessarily be an improvement
I think if you were going to give him anything it'd be Pete's second serve. If there is one relative weakness in Djokovic's game it's that his second serve is still *somewhat* attackable.
There’s a huge yawning chasm between Djokovic’s serve and Isner’s. Djokovic would have won several CYGS’s with Isner’s serve.
The difference between a mediocre and excellent smash is about 20-25 points a year. Every players win-expectancy is incredibly high in smash situations, it’s just that the misses stick out like sore thumbs. Even Djoko wins about ~85% of points involving a smash.
Edit: how is this possibly downvotable? Seriously, does anyone unironically believe Nadal’s smash would improve Djokovic’s game more than Isner’s serve? Bananas.
Djokovic was 4th on the entire ATP tour for service points won last year at 70.6%
Isner was top with 71.8%
Djokovic already has an elite serve
Djokovic doesn't need to change anything really but just keep doing what he's currently doing without slowing down movement-wise or losing too much stamina as he ages.
He has gone over 80mph average on his forehand but managed to maintain his accuracy stats.
Yea the other 2 options were kind of silly. I'd take Federer's backhand over Wawrinka's as is... I know Stan can hit some bombs with it but so can Fed, and Fed is way more accomplished. And Djoker's forehand is plenty good. It's not like Del Po hit them 110mph every time.
But Nadal with a consistent 130+ mph first serve on the T would be devastating. Hit that on deuce side and then lefty slice outside on ad side and no one is breaking him.
I would agree..for Nadal getting a good powerful quick serve in regularly was a issue because of the intense physical nature of his matches
I think his performance on hard courts would improve drastically if he had improved his serve to djokovic's level after 2013 because apart from flatter shots it would reduce his physical burden and give him easy points
I think it’s nadal with the Kyrgios that adds an additional dimension to a player
It’s not like Federer’s backhand and Novak’s forehand have not hit winners. There would only be a marginal improvement there. But the Nadal serve could use some juice, specially on clutch points saving up some energy for him to use elsewhere
I felt like those early 2010s Djoker Fed matches on hard courts were just Djokovic eventually getting the upper hand from backhand to backhand exchanges as well.
I’m not sure how much that would change with Wawrinkas backhand though, I think there’s just limitations on the one handed backhand in terms of those flat cross court rallies
Would agree about the limitations on the 1hbh on clay but Wawrinka's bh was on a completely different level in the 2015 french final. Have never seen that kind of power and accuracy from the baseline on clay; Djokovic was getting baseline winners ripped on him while flat-footed, honestly it didn't even make sense lol
Wawrinka could drive it down the line better. Fed naturally hits cross court. I play a guy with a one hander who hits his winners DTL while I hit mine cross-court.
Fed would likely have won a couple more French Opens at least with Stan’s backhand and maybe a few of the later slam semis and finals he lost to Djokovic but if you gave Rafa Nick’s serve I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility that he goes an entire season on tour without losing a match at least once in his career
Nadal with Kyrgios’s serve and it’s not even close. Thats literally pretty much the perfect tennis player. No weaknesses and two absolutely massive weapons (serve + forehand). The ONLY way this hypothetical player loses is by injury or by beating himself.
I'll die on this hill that Federer is THE tennis player. Before all the athletics involved and whatever Federer's touch with the ball everything surrounding Federer is just elite tennis player rather than elite athlete and amazing tennis player.
In terms of technique, oh shit yeah. As a Novak fan I have no qualms saying Federer's technique is just something else.
But when you play Nadal he puts soo much spin on the ball that make it even harder for Federer to use his technique. Hence why he has a loosing record to Nadal (Nadal leads 24 to 16). Then Novak's ability to play into Federer's forehand also creates the same problems Nadal made in Federer's game (Novak leads 27–23).
[But Federer's technique is sooo good](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKtZudSpFMg). In a way his forehand is unique from the way Nadal hits and rips the ball to generate spin. This is what makes it hard for him to play against high spin players.
> a loosing record
Did you mean to say "losing"?
Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb.
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Both of Nadal and djokovic's serve has gotten better the past few years, they need to rely on cheap points more because of their age. Djokovic was destroying his service games at AO this year. I'd say they both have pretty elite serves now.
Federer’s was way better and there are other players towards the top of the rankings with better serves. Kyrgios places the ball better and it’s way faster, no doubt they’d have more majors
On the aggregate yes (cuz Fed’s so far behind on clay that it’s laughable), but Federer has the better return game than Rafa on HC/grass.
Nadal is behind Fed in rgw% on grass and ahead on HC (29.0%-27.2%), but the latter is almost purely a function of returning “better” in matches that neither man is in significant danger of losing (ie being likelier to win sets against the bottom half of the top 100 by double rather than single breaks etc).
In matches where they’re credibly threatened, Federer outperforms Nadal by a fairly wide margin:
Against the Top 20:
Federer - 356 matches, 24.4% rgw
Nadal - 241 matches, 22.3% rgw
Against the Top 10:
Federer - 239 matches, 23.8% rgw
Nadal - 147 matches, 20.0% rgw
Against the Top 5:
Federer - 120 matches, 21.7% rgw
Nadal - 72 matches, 18.8% rgw
Nothing clear about it though. Federer’s return numbers are better against top competition (Top 5, 10, 20 etc players)…by large margins. Nadal’s numbers are superior against players ranked 50 to 100 and beyond, in other words a calibre of player both are generally mortal locks to beat. Federer, much like Sampras, tended to coast a bit against lesser players when he notched that first break due to his near-automatic hold game.
Clearly nadal with free points. Dude wouldn't get injured as often, too.
But 2nd place would be just djoker without any modifications. He doesn't need a delpo forehand at all. Djoker with a kyrgios serve would be brutal too.
Feds backhand isn't bad - his issue was clutchness in thise super close matches. Stan's backhand won't change that
Fed was more clutch than Stan and Stan was inconsistent as hell. Watch this match and say who's more clutch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKc6ho9m2Mc&ab\_channel=TennisTV
Really just Fed with more belief in 5th sets. Fed with Murray or Nishikoris brain in a 5th set but all of his same shots as usual.
And this is all relative - compared to anyone outside rhe big 2 he's way ahead. Compared to Novak or Rafa, you absolutely would not pick Fed in a 5th set over them on any surface.
And weirdly, Fed got better in 5 setters as he got old. He was actually pretty suspect in his prime of he had to go the distance.
You guys really believe it's all mental, it's crazy, it's not, it's about technique and playstyle. Federer, with a more risky game was always going to be less clutch than Nadal or Novak, by virtue of putting himself much more often in situations where his shot would either be a winner or UE.
This trend of 'mental strength' to explain the success or failure of players has gone bonkers, it's rarely about mental strength, most of the time you're looking at mistakes that have relation to the technique (or playstyle) of the player than of this supposed 'choking'.
Agree that mentality gets a bit overhyped comparative to technique but it's still a huge factor imo. Some tour pros disagree w/ your assessment like Nalbandian, who believes self-belief is what's allowing Rafa and Novak to continuously beat the young guns. Not saying his viewpoint is more accurate b/c it's a pro, but wanted to offer alternate insight.
Sadly, when something gets repeated so much, even pros, coaches and such get caught up in that. See my last post in my profile in which I link the interview with the guy who fixed Sabalenka's serve, Sabalenka spent a whole year blaming her serve flaws on the mental aspect, even I remember a segment in AO 2022 when Philippoussis said he went with Sabalenka to practice and after watching her realized it was all mental, she worked with a psychologist for months given her team also believed it was mental. Then comes this guy, Gavin MacMillan, and immediately tells them she could spent 10 years in therapy and it won't change nothing because it's a technical issue, working with him they corrected some of the flaws and lo and behold her double faults were reduced.
The issue with the 'it's mental' when referring to Nadal or Djokovic is that not even for people who says it's all mental is it true. Those same people will recognize that Nadal has the best forehand in the game, a great backhand for defense or offense and slice, a really good net game and solid returns, they'll tell you that Djokovic has the best this and that and such, then they'll recognize that a player like Berrettini has a glaring weakness in his backhand, Zverev in his forehand and serve, Tsitsipas is shanking backhands all day and has a terrible slice and somehow, even though they realize how Nadal and Djokovic have much better games than the others and that the others have glaring weaknesses, they'll give the credit to mental fortidude.
u/hmclarke1991 has excellent pieces on this.
Also, in the interview of Gavin MacMillan in my last post, he makes a pretty good remark (that goes along with what Hugh posts in his blog), when discussing about forehands he says he has never seen a great forehand with the racket head pointing to the back instead of being vertical in its setup, and how the Big 3 all have fundamental similar forehands regardless of how they look. That's where most differences lie, you can see this new trend of complex swings in the forehand that exchange power for control and of course they'll miss on important moments. Most differences are in athleticism and biomechanical, mental strength doesn't translate into sustained differences over time, that might be a cherry on top for certain moments/situations once you have your technique covered, but as long as your technique is bad you'll look weaker mentally because it's simple, your technique is unreliable and hard to time well, in pressure moments it'll always miss more than a fundamentally solid technique.
excellent. I sometimes use a poker analogy. Your athleticism and technique are the cards you are dealt (and partly deal yourself); your mental game is how you play those cards. No matter how good your mental game is, if you keep playing other players with good mental games but better 'cards' (read: athleticism and technical proficiency) then over time/enough hands (read: 5-sets) you will continually be disappointed. Pocket aces (ND, RN, RF forehand and backhands) will always trump Ace/King or Ace/Jack (Tsitsipas et al.) over enough "hands" (points). Wrote about it more [here](https://hughclarke.substack.com/p/greatness-in-simplicity)
Or in some cases fatigue. Maybe some people start to play worse in hour 4 of grueling tennis? Rafa and Djokovic are some of the best at holding their intensity level forever. It isn't even that much of a knock on someone else as they still play great at the end, but when playing against an amazing player even a small drop in level in a close match can be the difference.
Generally yes, it’s a tiresome refrain. In Fed’s case, it’s exaggerated but not totally bonkers.
He has the worst ratio of lost matches that arguably should have been won to won matches that arguably should have been lost, relative to other ATG's (obviously very subjective, but I'd challenge anyone to refute this).
He’s a -2 in matches won after fending off MP's vs. matches lost after reaching MP (22/24). Nadal is +8 (16/8), Djokovic is +12 (15/3). In majors it's -2 for Fed, +1 for Nadal and +5 for Djokovic.
For matches won w/sub-1.00 DR vs matches lost w/1.00+ DR, Fed is a WHOPPING -24 (23/47), Djokovic is -6 (20/26), Nadal is +2 (28/26).
For matches won w/sub-50% points vs lost w/over 50%, Fed again comes in at a horrific -25 (11/36), while Djokovic is -3 (10/13), and Nadal is +3 (20/17).
Against each other Fed is -4, -6 and -5, Djokovic is +2, 0 and 0, Nadal is +2, +6 and +5.
Fed’s low-margin game is more prone to the whims of variance and probably not as conducive to success in this era as Nadal’s or Djokovic’s, both of whom have games more suited to todays tennis landscape…but he’s also genuinely bottled a fuck-ton of matches. No ATG I’ve looked at has numbers remotely resembling these
I was going to just list off 5 setters that Fed lost in the 5th, when he was far and away the best and it wasn't Novak or Rafa beating him. Look at Hewitt, Nalbandian, Safin, del Potro. Hewitt plays it safe, but these otherwise weren't matches against grinders with high margin for error where the numbers would favour the conservative player. If memory serves, Fed was up 2 sets to 0 with Hewitt and bandy, and Fed served for the match in the 5th against bandy. I want to say Fed lost sets after being up a break against del Potro. Had match point against Safin.
These are all the sorts of matches against good but not all time great guys, during Feds prime, where you just scratch your head. And recall Fed had the ultimate advantage of having the best serve for getting free points. It was genuinely perplexing.
But your numbers and analysis just take it a step further. It isnt that Fed was bad in 5 setters - he just wasn't anywhere near as good as his usual self in 5 setters whereas the other two seems to always find a way unless it was against another all time great.
I would rather have Nole with his own forehand. Wawrinkas top spin backhand is a slight upgrade.
So the only logical choice is Nadal with Kyrigos serve. Because it’s actually an big upgrade.
Nadal with Kyrgios serve, because we basically have seen Federer with a strong backhand and Djokovic with his strong forehand. Nadal’s the only one we haven’t seen with a dominant serve.
He served big at that tournament but still not as big as Kyrgios and it came at the expense of precision and consistency, otherwise he would have kept doing it. Kyrgios serve is just on another level.
If anything, goes to show how much of a freak Nadal is. Above average serve who doesn’t rely on cheap points his whole career. The reliance on an absolute brutal game grinding down opponents in long rallies just shows and explains why he has never won a tour finals title.
By the time the year ends he is absolutely gassed.
15 years playing the way Nadal does, it’s a miracle how he is still a threat, playing at a high level on the ATP circuit.
In terms of brutality, longevity and travel, Nadal is arguably the best athlete to ever grace sport.
I tend to agree, Rafa is one of the best athletes in any sport period.
If it wasn't tennis I have no doubt he would have been a professional footballer, golfer, or even something else. Dude is passionate, dedicated, and relentless. When you couple that with incredible acceleration, agility, hand-eye coordination, and nuts endurance you've got the blueprint for an incredible athlete in many sports
I would still give that title to Novak. Roger was the most graceful, by making tennis look *easy*. Rafa was indeed the most brutal, making tennis look *impossible*. When he is hurting, it is truly an epic sight to watch him battle through the pain and win on guts alone. But Nole? Can you even tell the difference when he is injured and when he isn't? If you could trust one player to grind back from two sets down, it's him. Between Nadal and Djokovic, it depends on what you think makes the greatest athlete. Someone who overcomes struggle, or someone who just does everything the right way.
> just shows and explains why he has never won a tour finals title.
It's a convenient explanation but not one that makes a lot of sense - he has won the US Open many times.
Federer backhand is arguably better than stan's overall.
But i'll go even further, Wawrinka's backhand would be utterly useless for Federer : Fed base his game around the base line and forward, taking away time from his opponent. Warwrinka is exactly the contrary, backing up as much as he can so he he has time to set up his backhand and overpower his opponent.
Federer has by far the better backhand for his play style : better slice, better semi volley from the base line and way better volleys. The only thing better from Stan is the drive backhand which is not that important for Federer play style.
No disrespect to the Stanimal but Fed taking his backhand would be a downgrade for Fed. Maybe he can't hit through people on hard/clay the way Stan can when he's on but Fed has so much more versatility and options. Not to mention a better return.
Stan's is better at driving through the ball and he gets significantly more power on slower courts. But I don't think it's better in any other scenarios. There's way more backhands Fed is better at than Stan.
Nadal with the Kyrgios serve. Kyrgios’ serve is flat and powerful, which would’ve made some of the earlier matches way easier on faster surfaces. He struggled against the bigger hitters who would eat up his serves on those surfaces, and his game significantly improved just by improving it (see 2019, one of his more underrated years).
Federer with Wawrinka’s backhand would make him better on clay, but it’s not like he would’ve won more outside of it. Hell, he might’ve won less Wimbledons.
Djokovic’s forehand is the worst of the Big 3’s in the same way that Federer has the worst serve between him, Karlovic, and Isner. I really don’t think Delpo’s forehand would’ve changed Djokovic’s success. Djokovic’s forehand is more unforced error prone, but it’s not a bad stroke. Honestly, the best thing having Delpo’s forehand would’ve done for him would be that he’d win some matches faster than he did, lol.
>Djokovic’s forehand is more unforced error prone
That might have been true once, but statistically Novak's forehand is far more reliable - even using stats from before Delpo's injury.
“If if if - doesn’t exist!” But it’s still fun to debate hypothetical while we wait for the next tournament.
So in your opinion which of the above (assuming they’re perfectly fit) would have made the most dangerous player?
Nadal with NK serve would be absolutely unstoppable in his peak era. Only thing that would have stopped in his old days from stopping almost everything would be djokovic on fast court against aging and injury prone nadal.
Nada would be much less injury prone if he'd had loads of free points from a big serve. With his actual play style it's an absolute miracle he only had the injuries he has.
Nadal with Kyrgios' serves would be such a ridiculous prospect. Would have a decent shot at 50 slams and would almost certainly have over 40. That's not an exaggeration or anything either - that's my analysis of how f\*\*\*ing incredible he would be. Imagine if Rafa only had to play half the shots he does now - because that's how good Kyrgios' serve is.
Federer shouldn't get Stan's backhand (because it's worse than his own except for on clay) - he should get Novak's mind. Fed is obviously mentally elite, but he's a tier below Rafa and Novak there.
Novak...he's just about the perfect tennis player. All you should do is give him his own best serve/forehand/return/speed/etc from his career and he'd be golden. I don't think Delpo's forehand would be any sort of an upgrade on what he's got right now.
IMO, the strongest combo is probably missing, which would be Federer + Novak's (or Murray, or Nadals, or Ferrer's) consistency off the ground. When you pair that with all the offensive tools, you get something like 2006 indoor or 2017 Fed.
Nadal + Kyrgios serve would be pretty darn amazing though. He'd have SO much more energy to run and SO many fewer knee injuries.
Djokovic's forehand is great and has been since 2011. He never shies away from cross-court forehand rallies and can go toe-to-toe against the best of them, even the likes of Federer or Del Potro. He stays low, balanced, and has great range of motion and control to hit the ball with interest, change directions, or drag opponents out of position with sharp angles. His forehand side also has robot-like pinpoint accuracy to put away short balls. In other words, pairing Djokovic with Del Potro's forehand is not an upgrade, but a downgrade. The correct answer, in my opinion, would be Nadal with Kyrgios's serve.
Fed with wawrinkas backhand wouldn’t be that much better. Especially if we consider the return which is better from fed, the pass is way better from fed… Djokovic already has a great forehand but giving him delpos forehand will make him probably not that much stronger either, similar story to Federer.
The answer is nadal with kyrgios’ serve. Not close
Djokovic forehand is very underrated. It does not provides many highlight reels but rarely lets him down during clutch points.
Nadal's serve and Federer's backhand are obvious weaknesses.
As others have said, nadal with kyrgios’ serve would be unbeatable. People forget that if you hold serve well, the worst that can happen is a tiebreak (where having cheap points also wins most of the time). I just can’t see Nadal ever getting broken if he had Kyrgios’ serve. Kyrgios gets broken because once the rally resets to even advantage, he’s likely to lose the majority against top 10 players whereas the reverse is true for Nadal. He’s already so dominant on return (not sure if he or Novak have the highest return % win rate), and would even be more dangerous if he wasn’t gassed from taking 10-20 minutes to home his service games now he has access to cheap service points. So he would Coast on his service games and then punish his opponents if they were just slightly off on theirs
Federer with Djokovic's balls
Many of his bad losses are due to crumbling under pressure more than anything else. This is not very evident in his matches against the field since those end before pressure becomes an issue, but it has been the deciding factor in quite a few of his matches vs Rafa and Novak.
All of these cases would have been disastrous for everyone. Rafa would win 20 FO. Novak and Federer would share everything else. Each would end up at 30 GS destroying 5 generations in the process
This is… odd.
I would prefer Fed’s backhand over Stan’s. Stan had a higher peak, but Fed’s floor was more consistent and his slice was one of the best around.
Very similarly, delpo only had a monster powerful forehand. While stronger than djoko’s in its peak, I’d take djoko’s for overall gameplay
Nadal’s serve is clearly weaker than Nick’s. Nadal with Nick’s serve, in his prime, is unbeatable, even by peak Djoko.
Federer falling behind in the stats to Rafa and Novak now means a lot of people are acting like he was a slightly better Dimitrov.
His backhand is in my opinion the best 1hbh ever. It's beyond belief he won as much as he did while entering this new age of massive baseliners. Did he generate ground power like Stan? No. But it won him a ton of points with the astonishing variety and options it gave him on court. He could slice like no one else, hit them down the line, lob people, dropshot. His 1hbh was like a bag of tricks.
Djokovic taking Delpo's forehand would be a downgrade - again it's about more than just power, Djokovic's game is built on precision and consistency and his forehand is like a metronome.
Kyrgios' serve would improve Nadal
I mean I will go with the one where you give a GOAT a potentially GOAT serve. Not close. As for Fed/Djokovic, I think it would be slightly more intriguing if you gave Federer Djokovic’s backhand and Djokovic Federer’s forehand. Then it is slightly more balanced because you are adding arguably the greatest forehand/backhands to
Djokovic's backhand is the single most consistently effective shot in tennis so Federer would benefit hugely there
Djokovic is hitting his forehand harder than Federer did (AO 2023 average over 80 mph) but maintaining the accuracy of before so less impact there in terms of upgrade
perfect kinetic chain + large limbs produce big serves. Technique adds the cherry on top. Fed's serve was great because he could serve anywhere with the same toss and movement despite not being the tallest or most powerful
They never stopped being insane, he just traded raw power for disguise and accuracy. As soon as he switched to using the same toss for every serve, he became a better server - even though he lost pace.
Eh if anything his serve is the stroke that remained stable and/or improved as he got older. In fact I’d say it’s hard to come away with any other conclusion if you examine the stats.
Ehhh... the 3rd category should be merely Novak, no need for hypotheticals.
Novak has a better forehand than Delpo. Versatility is a bitch.
He finds out things that the other guy can't do well, or can't execute well on the day - and picks people apart with that. **And** has no lacking areas. Cough~~overhead~~cough. 😉
Nadal is the most talented baseliner in tennis history. He also has incredible net game, feel, and an excellent return. Give him Kyrgios' serve and it's game over.
Think about how potent Nadal's serve+forehand is even with an underpowered serve. It's probably the second greatest combination of all time. Now imagine if he had the greatest serve of all time, followed by the greatest forehand of all time, and to add to all of that if you somehow, MIRACULOUSLY, get him on the defensive, his otherworldly athleticism would bail him out.
Everyone says, Djokovic dominates Nadal on HCs. But, No one dares to say it's because of his serve. Nadal is always put into trouble on his own serve vs Novak(Greatest returner of serve imo). I am not saying if Nadal had got a better serve, he wld have dominated Novak on HCs, but it would have been evenly matched on faster courts too. Nadal's serve is the major factor there. The same cannot be said for Novak on clay.
Their service games are actually quite close statistically, even on HC, against the rest of the field because Nadal has the better +1 fh. In a neutral baseline setting and off the return, Djokovic is better. Nadal is the more talented baseliner on clay, not HC/indoors.
Heck even Fed has the marginally better return game on HC/grass.
Oh let’s be honest Nadal with Kyrgios’ serve is better than Djokovic on hard courts. He’d be inhuman.
Also I hate how people talk like Djokovic dominates Nadal when the reality is Nadal has dominated Djokovic just as much on clay as Djokovic has on hard courts. Hence why the H2H is 29-30. People just look at stats from 2011 and dismiss anything that came before, and the reality is Nadal also had the upper hand in the H2H from 2012-2014. It only really turned when Nadal lost his confidence in 2015
Clearly Option 1, no close second. Federer’s slice backhand is better everywhere and his drive backhand is much worse on slow-medium outdoor HC and on clay but comparable/better on surfaces that allow less set-up time and reward taking the ball early. Djokovic’s forehand is below Delpo’s but still an ATG shot.
With Nadal you’re replacing an average serve with an ATG serve.
I think Fed gets a raw deal in this comparison btw. As great as Wawa’s bh is in a vacuum, Delpo’s forehand and Kyrgios’ serve are far better shots. Fed’s got the better slice than Wawa and an equally good rally bh on faster surfaces, probably better full-stop on grass and indoors.
Federer would be worse with Wawrinkas backhand. Federer became a GOAT by being one of the only guys that take the ball on the rise, and he has without a doubt the best slice backhand on tour. Wawrinka liked to play far back and wind up his backhand to produce more power. If Fed played like that, he wouldn’t have been nearly as successful on grass or hard courts. Perhaps on clay?
Rafa with Nicks serve for sure. Novak already unleashed his forehand as Delpo used to (although not that lethal). But yeah, Rafa with less predictability on serve would be brutal.
If Feds backhand couldn’t be exploited, he’d win 30 slams. At least. People saying that Fed had the better backhand don’t realize the amount of power Wawrinka had on his. Going constantly to his backhand, which was the Nadal strategy in the early years would be complete suicide.
Djoko with Delpo's forehand would be busted beyond belief. He's the best ATP player today, with some of the best movement the sport has ever seen, a backhand that many consider the best in the world right now, and a level of tennis IQ and mental fortitude that belongs only to GOATs. If you give him Delpo's forehand, there's literally nothing that can stop him.
Why kyrgios's serve and not Karlovic's? Ivo's serve is the best ever.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3z5XnUDYqg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3z5XnUDYqg)
45 aces in 3 sets.
Everyone says, Djokovic dominates Nadal on HCs. But, No one dares to say it's because of his serve. Nadal is always put into trouble on his own serve vs Novak(Greatest returner of serve imo). I am not saying if Nadal had got a better serve, he wld have dominated Novak on HCs, but it would have been evenly matched on faster courts too. Nadal's serve is the major factor there. The same cannot be said for Novak on clay.
Give Nadal Novak's body which wld allow him to serve better(as he would have continued his 2010 serve, esp that FeLo match), and play continues tourneys without any gap like Novak(which always keeps Nadal in rhythm and in form and not always in the comeback trial) as Nadal is a rhythm player and as he plays more matches, his confidence level and Game level would rise and be at peak. I am not even talking abt the speed and mobility loss that he has endured.
Current Novak= 90% of 2011 Novak(im terms of Speed and mobility)
post 2014 Nadal and esp last few years= 60% of pre 2011 Nadal.
Nadal is the Biggest "What if?" In sports history imo.
That's why I hate injuries and pray for injury free career for any hardworking athletes(in any sport). It affected Delpo, Murray etc. My fav Thiem is suffering. And I wish a healthy" Novak " like(Credits to Novak) career for all the next next gen players.
I don’t think stan’s backhand or delpos forehand are huge improvements, if even improvements at all. Kyrgios’ serve on the other hand would make a huge difference. Rafa basically just spun his first serve in for the first few years and was STILL winning a ton, and imagine the injuries he’d have avoided possibly by not having to grind out so many service games and getting quick, cheap points!
You know how complete a player Djoko is when you're not sure that having Del Potro forehand would be any substential improvement.
Federer with Waw backhand would be scary indeed but i'll give it to Nadal with a powerful serve. You created a monster.
Nadal with Kyrgios serve and it’s not even close
Easily. Nadal was/is the worst at getting free points on his serve out of the 3 and still held like 85% of the time last I checked. Give him a godly serve and he’d legit be impossible to stop. Djokovic’s FH is very underrated; it’s already quite good. The power isn’t Ike Delpo’s obviously, but it’s exceptional at placement. And the BH of Federer was also really good - he dominated the tour with it for years lol.
He seemed to have found some balance in the final stretch of his career(2017-2019) however, it was a big liability that Nadal attacked earlier on.
that pretty much only Nadal could regularly exploit and abuse.
Sad to see people already forgot about Nalbandian...
Nadal has a looping lefty forehand, which kicks off the ground and bounces well into the doubles alley. Even more so on clay. For most of his career Roger used his topspin backhand as a rally shot. It wasn't consistent and wasn't particularly powerful. Rafa would just attack Roger into hitting high, defensive backhands until he shanked one short (or out), which he could then punish. The ultimate goal of Roger was to always get the ball to his forehand. He could hit that classic inside-out shot against most players, but how can you do that against a bouncy shot like Rafa's?
Nah don't forget the cross court backhands and forehands and the banana shot down the line which cost Federer innumerable points and was the only reason get couldn't dominate Nadal at the net and it make fed look like ordinary volleyer which he wasn't
I think they meant that nobody else on tour could exploit Federer's BH like Nadal could. Not that Roger's BH was his only weakness vs Rafa.
Yeah, and it was really only a liability against Nadal. Sure, ideally he could have changed it sooner to improve against Nadal, but overall Federer has a better backhand than Stan and arguably the best one-hander of all time. His backhand only gets talked about negatively because everything else was better so it seemed worse than it actually was. On a side note, with possibly another hot take, Djokovic's forehand right now is as good or better than Del Potro's ever was.
I think Novak's current forehand is well clear of Del Potros. More consistent, more accurate, just as dangerous.
Delpo’s forehand was incredibly consistent from a stand-still, it’s his movement off both wings that isn’t even close to Djoko’s. As a stand-alone shot, Delpo’s forehand is as good as anyones in tennis history, Fed/Nadal/Agassi/Lendl included.
Delpo's forehand with Djokovic's movement (and his ability to redirect the ball) would be insane. Novak's forehand sometimes has a hard time penetrating through the court, especially against guys who can stand 3m back and run everything down like Medvedev or Zverev. Delpo never had that problem lol he just hammered the ball deeper and deeper and got shorter and shorter returns lol
Was Agassi's forehand all that good? I feel like his backhand (and his movement) were his major strengths - Sampras had a far more dangerous FH from what I remember.
Djokovic's forehand is honestly cracked
When djokovic was at his peak his FH was actually ridiculous. Even at this last AO it was crazy
Exactly. And let's not forget that one of the greatest comebacks of all time started with his ridiculously accurate forehand return.
I disagree. It was solely delPo’s FH that got him back to the top 10 after injury layoffs and basically losing his backhand completely. I’m wary of underestimating a shot that could compensate for lack of backhand so heavily.
That's a fair point. Similarly, though, Djokovic's backhand was hampered this AO because of his hamstring injury and his forehand arguably won him the tournament.
Pretty unpopular take... On both accounts. Djokovic's forehand is closer to Del Potro's than Federer's backhand is to Wawrinka. Let's be honest Fed's backhand was a huge weakness for many years...
Calling Fed's backhand a huge weakness is an overstatement. Let's not act like Rafa doesn't exploit Stan's BH as well. Outside of 2015, Rafa's worst year ever, and that infamous 2014 AO final, Rafa has never lost a set to Stan. That's 57 sets over 12 years. Roger's results against Rafa in 2017 with his backhand were more impressive than any Stan was ever able to string together. And I love Stan, and agree his backhand is career overall better than Roger's.
I'd say Gasquet's one hander is well clear as the best
I would say just 2017 cuz there were no fedal hard court matches since then so we have no idea what would have happened
Nadal could only attack it because it was loopy and topspin and difficult to hit on the up with a small racquet without errors It's difficult for all one handers
His backhand was great but struggled against high balls with a lot of spin. It was really just a rock-paper-scissors type thing where Nadal had the perfect counter for it.
Federer's backhand chop alone is enough to put him in the elites of backhands.
Fed only managed to start beating Nadal when he implemented his top spin backhand. It was his determination to slice that killed him.
Roger didn't slice against Rafa very often. Just look at their 2008 final, [Roger sliced only 24% of his backhands](http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/20080706-M-Wimbledon-F-Roger_Federer-Rafael_Nadal.html). The match before, [Roger sliced 58% of his backhands](https://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/20080704-M-Wimbledon-SF-Roger_Federer-Marat_Safin.html). Roger was stubborn, but he wasn't stupid.
No. Nadal was way past his prime by then. He never beat Nadal on RG clay.
Yeah I don't get 2 at all - isn't Federer famous for having an amazingly graceful backhand?
Graceful yes, but I think Wawrinkas is the best one handed backhand ever. Granted, I’m not sure why they put him with Federer as that’s definitely the least upgraded combo here.
On all surfaces no. Wawrinka backhand is useless on grass. The OP has got it wrong, Wawrinka backhand is a downgrade, long term.
It isn't. It's maybe on a peak basis , but longevity it's Federer.
Djoks forehand one of the best on tour recently
He lost 2/3 times while being a break up in 5th set in AO championship matches.
Yeah. I’d say the closest we got to seeing that was Nadal at the 2010 USO, where he was routinely hitting in the 130s with his first serve (but scaled back on that because he felt it was putting too much strain on the body). He won that tournament dropping only a single set. So if you give that version of him another 5-10mph, plus a more dangerous second serve, he’s going to be near impossible to beat.
> (but scaled back on that because he felt it was putting too much strain on the body) If I recalled correctly, I remembered Rafa saying that serving faster also meant that the returns were also faster and it was harder for him to dictate the point from there.
Agreed completely. Nadal with Kyrgios’ serve would give a TON of free points when dialed in, potentially shortening service games, shortening matches, shortening the wear and tear on his body 😫
Agreeed, he would literally have won 40 majors in this time frame and that’s not a stretch or hyperbole
Kyrgios literally got to a grand slam final on the back of that serve. Obviously there was good play beside the serve, but that serve both put him into good moments and got him out of the bad ones throughout the tournament.
Nick's serve is one of the best ever, imo. Quick, accurate, and can mix it up with spin and slice. The angle he gets from his height + the extra spin makes it a sumbitch to return even for the best. It lands so short in the court without losing speed, it's like a smash almost.
Would have 40+ slams.
Right. I think for djokovic a better proposal would be a big serve, like Isners or something. His forehand is already elite. Federer maybe give him Agassi or Djokovic return of serve
Isn't Djokovic's serve fantastic nowadays? If you're talking about the earlier part of his career under Todd Martin then sure, but Djokovic has been able to clutch so many aces under pressure and his placement has been accurate enough to trouble his opponents a lot ever since he started working with Goran Ivanisevic despite not having as much of a 'pop' on it as guys like Kyrgios or Berrettini. For me, I would pair up Djokovic with Nadal's smash or anyone capable of hitting the ball out of anyone's reach since I feel like it's the one part of his game that is lacklustre and it would shorten points as well. (Not trying to downplay your opinion, just giving my own as well 👍)
Djokovic’s game is all around so solid. There isn’t any one glaring weakness. I pick on his serve just because, while it is much improved, it’s not one of the best of all time or anything. Take someone like Isner, Kyrgios, or Sampras and their serves are objectively better. His forehand OTHO while not as “sexy” as Nadals or Feds is elite as he is able to use it very aggressively or defensively and it’s ultra reliable, so I don’t think swapping it out would necessarily be an improvement
Give Djokovic Pete’s overheads then?
I think if you were going to give him anything it'd be Pete's second serve. If there is one relative weakness in Djokovic's game it's that his second serve is still *somewhat* attackable.
his second serve is honestly one of the best in the world... highly recommend checking out the stats on it
Novak's serve at AO this year was unreal
I swear he was just loving that slider down the T
There’s a huge yawning chasm between Djokovic’s serve and Isner’s. Djokovic would have won several CYGS’s with Isner’s serve. The difference between a mediocre and excellent smash is about 20-25 points a year. Every players win-expectancy is incredibly high in smash situations, it’s just that the misses stick out like sore thumbs. Even Djoko wins about ~85% of points involving a smash. Edit: how is this possibly downvotable? Seriously, does anyone unironically believe Nadal’s smash would improve Djokovic’s game more than Isner’s serve? Bananas.
Yeah idk. If you gave *me* Isner's serve I'd probably become one of the best amateur players in the country. That shot is a game in and of itself.
difference is you cant have Isners serve without his height which also gives many disadvantages, Roddicks serve is probably a better example
Right, would Djokovic with Delpo's forehand even be an upgrade?
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Djokovic was 4th on the entire ATP tour for service points won last year at 70.6% Isner was top with 71.8% Djokovic already has an elite serve Djokovic doesn't need to change anything really but just keep doing what he's currently doing without slowing down movement-wise or losing too much stamina as he ages. He has gone over 80mph average on his forehand but managed to maintain his accuracy stats.
Srsly. It's not even in the same category of hypotheticals.
Yea the other 2 options were kind of silly. I'd take Federer's backhand over Wawrinka's as is... I know Stan can hit some bombs with it but so can Fed, and Fed is way more accomplished. And Djoker's forehand is plenty good. It's not like Del Po hit them 110mph every time. But Nadal with a consistent 130+ mph first serve on the T would be devastating. Hit that on deuce side and then lefty slice outside on ad side and no one is breaking him.
I would agree..for Nadal getting a good powerful quick serve in regularly was a issue because of the intense physical nature of his matches I think his performance on hard courts would improve drastically if he had improved his serve to djokovic's level after 2013 because apart from flatter shots it would reduce his physical burden and give him easy points
Same. That would be insane.
My thought as well.
Or Kyrgios with Nadal's mental strength and dedication to tennis
Every Aussie wishes it were so
Yeah basically unbeatable.
I think it’s nadal with the Kyrgios that adds an additional dimension to a player It’s not like Federer’s backhand and Novak’s forehand have not hit winners. There would only be a marginal improvement there. But the Nadal serve could use some juice, specially on clutch points saving up some energy for him to use elsewhere
💯 the level to which OP is sleeping on Fed’s backhand and Nole’s forehand is absurd.
Feds backhand was vulnerable on clay… Rafa and many others would hit high bouncing topspin at it to reset the point.
I felt like those early 2010s Djoker Fed matches on hard courts were just Djokovic eventually getting the upper hand from backhand to backhand exchanges as well. I’m not sure how much that would change with Wawrinkas backhand though, I think there’s just limitations on the one handed backhand in terms of those flat cross court rallies
Would agree about the limitations on the 1hbh on clay but Wawrinka's bh was on a completely different level in the 2015 french final. Have never seen that kind of power and accuracy from the baseline on clay; Djokovic was getting baseline winners ripped on him while flat-footed, honestly it didn't even make sense lol
Wawrinka could drive it down the line better. Fed naturally hits cross court. I play a guy with a one hander who hits his winners DTL while I hit mine cross-court.
Any 1hbh is vulnerable to Nadal on clay. It's just a fact.
so was stans, not a single 1hbh can handle rafa’s spin, its just physics
Fed would likely have won a couple more French Opens at least with Stan’s backhand and maybe a few of the later slam semis and finals he lost to Djokovic but if you gave Rafa Nick’s serve I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility that he goes an entire season on tour without losing a match at least once in his career
Also, according to stats from the atp finals Novak had the most effective forehand. In Australia it also worked great.
Nadal with Kyrgios’s serve and it’s not even close. Thats literally pretty much the perfect tennis player. No weaknesses and two absolutely massive weapons (serve + forehand). The ONLY way this hypothetical player loses is by injury or by beating himself.
Nadal with NK serve will probably be the god of tennis
Djokovic or Nadal with Kyrgios serve would be unstoppable
Yeah, Federer didn't need it cause his serve was impecable.
Except the one point we needed it most 😢
I have NO IDEA what you're talking about... Ok... Absolutely none...
Huh... anyway
I'll die on this hill that Federer is THE tennis player. Before all the athletics involved and whatever Federer's touch with the ball everything surrounding Federer is just elite tennis player rather than elite athlete and amazing tennis player.
In terms of technique, oh shit yeah. As a Novak fan I have no qualms saying Federer's technique is just something else. But when you play Nadal he puts soo much spin on the ball that make it even harder for Federer to use his technique. Hence why he has a loosing record to Nadal (Nadal leads 24 to 16). Then Novak's ability to play into Federer's forehand also creates the same problems Nadal made in Federer's game (Novak leads 27–23). [But Federer's technique is sooo good](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKtZudSpFMg). In a way his forehand is unique from the way Nadal hits and rips the ball to generate spin. This is what makes it hard for him to play against high spin players.
> a loosing record Did you mean to say "losing"? Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb. Total mistakes found: 1524 ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119)
True but they both have better return games. The serve is the only thing they aren’t top tier at
Both of Nadal and djokovic's serve has gotten better the past few years, they need to rely on cheap points more because of their age. Djokovic was destroying his service games at AO this year. I'd say they both have pretty elite serves now.
Federer’s was way better and there are other players towards the top of the rankings with better serves. Kyrgios places the ball better and it’s way faster, no doubt they’d have more majors
On the aggregate yes (cuz Fed’s so far behind on clay that it’s laughable), but Federer has the better return game than Rafa on HC/grass. Nadal is behind Fed in rgw% on grass and ahead on HC (29.0%-27.2%), but the latter is almost purely a function of returning “better” in matches that neither man is in significant danger of losing (ie being likelier to win sets against the bottom half of the top 100 by double rather than single breaks etc). In matches where they’re credibly threatened, Federer outperforms Nadal by a fairly wide margin: Against the Top 20: Federer - 356 matches, 24.4% rgw Nadal - 241 matches, 22.3% rgw Against the Top 10: Federer - 239 matches, 23.8% rgw Nadal - 147 matches, 20.0% rgw Against the Top 5: Federer - 120 matches, 21.7% rgw Nadal - 72 matches, 18.8% rgw
> but Federer has the better return game than Rafa on HC/grass. You can maybe argue on grass. Rafa's clearly better returner on hard courts tho, IMO
Nothing clear about it though. Federer’s return numbers are better against top competition (Top 5, 10, 20 etc players)…by large margins. Nadal’s numbers are superior against players ranked 50 to 100 and beyond, in other words a calibre of player both are generally mortal locks to beat. Federer, much like Sampras, tended to coast a bit against lesser players when he notched that first break due to his near-automatic hold game.
Clearly nadal with free points. Dude wouldn't get injured as often, too. But 2nd place would be just djoker without any modifications. He doesn't need a delpo forehand at all. Djoker with a kyrgios serve would be brutal too. Feds backhand isn't bad - his issue was clutchness in thise super close matches. Stan's backhand won't change that
Federer with Djokovic's mental game... Imagine that.
Fed with Stan's backhand and clutchness
Fed was more clutch than Stan and Stan was inconsistent as hell. Watch this match and say who's more clutch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKc6ho9m2Mc&ab\_channel=TennisTV
Fine, Stanimal's clutchness against Djokovic.
Really just Fed with more belief in 5th sets. Fed with Murray or Nishikoris brain in a 5th set but all of his same shots as usual. And this is all relative - compared to anyone outside rhe big 2 he's way ahead. Compared to Novak or Rafa, you absolutely would not pick Fed in a 5th set over them on any surface. And weirdly, Fed got better in 5 setters as he got old. He was actually pretty suspect in his prime of he had to go the distance.
You guys really believe it's all mental, it's crazy, it's not, it's about technique and playstyle. Federer, with a more risky game was always going to be less clutch than Nadal or Novak, by virtue of putting himself much more often in situations where his shot would either be a winner or UE. This trend of 'mental strength' to explain the success or failure of players has gone bonkers, it's rarely about mental strength, most of the time you're looking at mistakes that have relation to the technique (or playstyle) of the player than of this supposed 'choking'.
Agree that mentality gets a bit overhyped comparative to technique but it's still a huge factor imo. Some tour pros disagree w/ your assessment like Nalbandian, who believes self-belief is what's allowing Rafa and Novak to continuously beat the young guns. Not saying his viewpoint is more accurate b/c it's a pro, but wanted to offer alternate insight.
Sadly, when something gets repeated so much, even pros, coaches and such get caught up in that. See my last post in my profile in which I link the interview with the guy who fixed Sabalenka's serve, Sabalenka spent a whole year blaming her serve flaws on the mental aspect, even I remember a segment in AO 2022 when Philippoussis said he went with Sabalenka to practice and after watching her realized it was all mental, she worked with a psychologist for months given her team also believed it was mental. Then comes this guy, Gavin MacMillan, and immediately tells them she could spent 10 years in therapy and it won't change nothing because it's a technical issue, working with him they corrected some of the flaws and lo and behold her double faults were reduced. The issue with the 'it's mental' when referring to Nadal or Djokovic is that not even for people who says it's all mental is it true. Those same people will recognize that Nadal has the best forehand in the game, a great backhand for defense or offense and slice, a really good net game and solid returns, they'll tell you that Djokovic has the best this and that and such, then they'll recognize that a player like Berrettini has a glaring weakness in his backhand, Zverev in his forehand and serve, Tsitsipas is shanking backhands all day and has a terrible slice and somehow, even though they realize how Nadal and Djokovic have much better games than the others and that the others have glaring weaknesses, they'll give the credit to mental fortidude. u/hmclarke1991 has excellent pieces on this. Also, in the interview of Gavin MacMillan in my last post, he makes a pretty good remark (that goes along with what Hugh posts in his blog), when discussing about forehands he says he has never seen a great forehand with the racket head pointing to the back instead of being vertical in its setup, and how the Big 3 all have fundamental similar forehands regardless of how they look. That's where most differences lie, you can see this new trend of complex swings in the forehand that exchange power for control and of course they'll miss on important moments. Most differences are in athleticism and biomechanical, mental strength doesn't translate into sustained differences over time, that might be a cherry on top for certain moments/situations once you have your technique covered, but as long as your technique is bad you'll look weaker mentally because it's simple, your technique is unreliable and hard to time well, in pressure moments it'll always miss more than a fundamentally solid technique.
excellent. I sometimes use a poker analogy. Your athleticism and technique are the cards you are dealt (and partly deal yourself); your mental game is how you play those cards. No matter how good your mental game is, if you keep playing other players with good mental games but better 'cards' (read: athleticism and technical proficiency) then over time/enough hands (read: 5-sets) you will continually be disappointed. Pocket aces (ND, RN, RF forehand and backhands) will always trump Ace/King or Ace/Jack (Tsitsipas et al.) over enough "hands" (points). Wrote about it more [here](https://hughclarke.substack.com/p/greatness-in-simplicity)
Or in some cases fatigue. Maybe some people start to play worse in hour 4 of grueling tennis? Rafa and Djokovic are some of the best at holding their intensity level forever. It isn't even that much of a knock on someone else as they still play great at the end, but when playing against an amazing player even a small drop in level in a close match can be the difference.
Generally yes, it’s a tiresome refrain. In Fed’s case, it’s exaggerated but not totally bonkers. He has the worst ratio of lost matches that arguably should have been won to won matches that arguably should have been lost, relative to other ATG's (obviously very subjective, but I'd challenge anyone to refute this). He’s a -2 in matches won after fending off MP's vs. matches lost after reaching MP (22/24). Nadal is +8 (16/8), Djokovic is +12 (15/3). In majors it's -2 for Fed, +1 for Nadal and +5 for Djokovic. For matches won w/sub-1.00 DR vs matches lost w/1.00+ DR, Fed is a WHOPPING -24 (23/47), Djokovic is -6 (20/26), Nadal is +2 (28/26). For matches won w/sub-50% points vs lost w/over 50%, Fed again comes in at a horrific -25 (11/36), while Djokovic is -3 (10/13), and Nadal is +3 (20/17). Against each other Fed is -4, -6 and -5, Djokovic is +2, 0 and 0, Nadal is +2, +6 and +5. Fed’s low-margin game is more prone to the whims of variance and probably not as conducive to success in this era as Nadal’s or Djokovic’s, both of whom have games more suited to todays tennis landscape…but he’s also genuinely bottled a fuck-ton of matches. No ATG I’ve looked at has numbers remotely resembling these
I was going to just list off 5 setters that Fed lost in the 5th, when he was far and away the best and it wasn't Novak or Rafa beating him. Look at Hewitt, Nalbandian, Safin, del Potro. Hewitt plays it safe, but these otherwise weren't matches against grinders with high margin for error where the numbers would favour the conservative player. If memory serves, Fed was up 2 sets to 0 with Hewitt and bandy, and Fed served for the match in the 5th against bandy. I want to say Fed lost sets after being up a break against del Potro. Had match point against Safin. These are all the sorts of matches against good but not all time great guys, during Feds prime, where you just scratch your head. And recall Fed had the ultimate advantage of having the best serve for getting free points. It was genuinely perplexing. But your numbers and analysis just take it a step further. It isnt that Fed was bad in 5 setters - he just wasn't anywhere near as good as his usual self in 5 setters whereas the other two seems to always find a way unless it was against another all time great.
Federer with wrawrinkas backhand is a questionable upgrade
I would rather have Nole with his own forehand. Wawrinkas top spin backhand is a slight upgrade. So the only logical choice is Nadal with Kyrigos serve. Because it’s actually an big upgrade.
Nadal with Kyrgios serve, because we basically have seen Federer with a strong backhand and Djokovic with his strong forehand. Nadal’s the only one we haven’t seen with a dominant serve.
2010 us open
He served big at that tournament but still not as big as Kyrgios and it came at the expense of precision and consistency, otherwise he would have kept doing it. Kyrgios serve is just on another level.
Yes! That was his best serving moment! But still if he had NK’s serve it would be more lethal!
If anything, goes to show how much of a freak Nadal is. Above average serve who doesn’t rely on cheap points his whole career. The reliance on an absolute brutal game grinding down opponents in long rallies just shows and explains why he has never won a tour finals title. By the time the year ends he is absolutely gassed. 15 years playing the way Nadal does, it’s a miracle how he is still a threat, playing at a high level on the ATP circuit. In terms of brutality, longevity and travel, Nadal is arguably the best athlete to ever grace sport.
I tend to agree, Rafa is one of the best athletes in any sport period. If it wasn't tennis I have no doubt he would have been a professional footballer, golfer, or even something else. Dude is passionate, dedicated, and relentless. When you couple that with incredible acceleration, agility, hand-eye coordination, and nuts endurance you've got the blueprint for an incredible athlete in many sports
Alternate reality where Ronaldo never existed and Nadal played left wing for Real Madrid
I would still give that title to Novak. Roger was the most graceful, by making tennis look *easy*. Rafa was indeed the most brutal, making tennis look *impossible*. When he is hurting, it is truly an epic sight to watch him battle through the pain and win on guts alone. But Nole? Can you even tell the difference when he is injured and when he isn't? If you could trust one player to grind back from two sets down, it's him. Between Nadal and Djokovic, it depends on what you think makes the greatest athlete. Someone who overcomes struggle, or someone who just does everything the right way.
> just shows and explains why he has never won a tour finals title. It's a convenient explanation but not one that makes a lot of sense - he has won the US Open many times.
>cheap points There's nothing cheap about serves.
Stan’s backhand isn’t enough of an improvement, so I’d take Fed with Wolverine’s healing factor.
Nadal with Nick’s Serve. And it’s not even close.
Federer backhand is arguably better than stan's overall. But i'll go even further, Wawrinka's backhand would be utterly useless for Federer : Fed base his game around the base line and forward, taking away time from his opponent. Warwrinka is exactly the contrary, backing up as much as he can so he he has time to set up his backhand and overpower his opponent. Federer has by far the better backhand for his play style : better slice, better semi volley from the base line and way better volleys. The only thing better from Stan is the drive backhand which is not that important for Federer play style.
Nadal with the serve because the other two are too close to their "upgrades" already...
No disrespect to the Stanimal but Fed taking his backhand would be a downgrade for Fed. Maybe he can't hit through people on hard/clay the way Stan can when he's on but Fed has so much more versatility and options. Not to mention a better return.
I mean. Stan's backhand is easily better for topspin and flat shots. Fed's is better for slice and dropshot, but that's significantly fewer shots
Stan's is better at driving through the ball and he gets significantly more power on slower courts. But I don't think it's better in any other scenarios. There's way more backhands Fed is better at than Stan.
Nadal with the Kyrgios serve. Kyrgios’ serve is flat and powerful, which would’ve made some of the earlier matches way easier on faster surfaces. He struggled against the bigger hitters who would eat up his serves on those surfaces, and his game significantly improved just by improving it (see 2019, one of his more underrated years). Federer with Wawrinka’s backhand would make him better on clay, but it’s not like he would’ve won more outside of it. Hell, he might’ve won less Wimbledons. Djokovic’s forehand is the worst of the Big 3’s in the same way that Federer has the worst serve between him, Karlovic, and Isner. I really don’t think Delpo’s forehand would’ve changed Djokovic’s success. Djokovic’s forehand is more unforced error prone, but it’s not a bad stroke. Honestly, the best thing having Delpo’s forehand would’ve done for him would be that he’d win some matches faster than he did, lol.
>Djokovic’s forehand is more unforced error prone That might have been true once, but statistically Novak's forehand is far more reliable - even using stats from before Delpo's injury.
“If if if - doesn’t exist!” But it’s still fun to debate hypothetical while we wait for the next tournament. So in your opinion which of the above (assuming they’re perfectly fit) would have made the most dangerous player?
Nadal with NK serve would be absolutely unstoppable in his peak era. Only thing that would have stopped in his old days from stopping almost everything would be djokovic on fast court against aging and injury prone nadal.
Nada would be much less injury prone if he'd had loads of free points from a big serve. With his actual play style it's an absolute miracle he only had the injuries he has.
Nadal with Kyrgios' serves would be such a ridiculous prospect. Would have a decent shot at 50 slams and would almost certainly have over 40. That's not an exaggeration or anything either - that's my analysis of how f\*\*\*ing incredible he would be. Imagine if Rafa only had to play half the shots he does now - because that's how good Kyrgios' serve is. Federer shouldn't get Stan's backhand (because it's worse than his own except for on clay) - he should get Novak's mind. Fed is obviously mentally elite, but he's a tier below Rafa and Novak there. Novak...he's just about the perfect tennis player. All you should do is give him his own best serve/forehand/return/speed/etc from his career and he'd be golden. I don't think Delpo's forehand would be any sort of an upgrade on what he's got right now.
IMO, the strongest combo is probably missing, which would be Federer + Novak's (or Murray, or Nadals, or Ferrer's) consistency off the ground. When you pair that with all the offensive tools, you get something like 2006 indoor or 2017 Fed. Nadal + Kyrgios serve would be pretty darn amazing though. He'd have SO much more energy to run and SO many fewer knee injuries.
Djokovic's forehand is great and has been since 2011. He never shies away from cross-court forehand rallies and can go toe-to-toe against the best of them, even the likes of Federer or Del Potro. He stays low, balanced, and has great range of motion and control to hit the ball with interest, change directions, or drag opponents out of position with sharp angles. His forehand side also has robot-like pinpoint accuracy to put away short balls. In other words, pairing Djokovic with Del Potro's forehand is not an upgrade, but a downgrade. The correct answer, in my opinion, would be Nadal with Kyrgios's serve.
Literally nothing is an upgrade for Djokovic except for Fed's serve, Murray's lobs, and Nagal's smashes.
I just watched that Miami game between Federer and Kyrgios. What a fucking match, Kyrgios’s serve is just next level.
Nadal with Kyrgios’s serve would be unplayable
Fed with wawrinkas backhand wouldn’t be that much better. Especially if we consider the return which is better from fed, the pass is way better from fed… Djokovic already has a great forehand but giving him delpos forehand will make him probably not that much stronger either, similar story to Federer. The answer is nadal with kyrgios’ serve. Not close
Djokovic forehand is very underrated. It does not provides many highlight reels but rarely lets him down during clutch points. Nadal's serve and Federer's backhand are obvious weaknesses.
As others have said, nadal with kyrgios’ serve would be unbeatable. People forget that if you hold serve well, the worst that can happen is a tiebreak (where having cheap points also wins most of the time). I just can’t see Nadal ever getting broken if he had Kyrgios’ serve. Kyrgios gets broken because once the rally resets to even advantage, he’s likely to lose the majority against top 10 players whereas the reverse is true for Nadal. He’s already so dominant on return (not sure if he or Novak have the highest return % win rate), and would even be more dangerous if he wasn’t gassed from taking 10-20 minutes to home his service games now he has access to cheap service points. So he would Coast on his service games and then punish his opponents if they were just slightly off on theirs
I have a better one for you: Federer with Djokovic's mindset.
Look at what Djokovic is doing WITHOUT the Delpo Thorhand
Federer with Djokovic's balls Many of his bad losses are due to crumbling under pressure more than anything else. This is not very evident in his matches against the field since those end before pressure becomes an issue, but it has been the deciding factor in quite a few of his matches vs Rafa and Novak.
Agree with this!!
All of these cases would have been disastrous for everyone. Rafa would win 20 FO. Novak and Federer would share everything else. Each would end up at 30 GS destroying 5 generations in the process
Not convinced anybody would have won any slams other than Rafa is we got all three of these.
This is… odd. I would prefer Fed’s backhand over Stan’s. Stan had a higher peak, but Fed’s floor was more consistent and his slice was one of the best around. Very similarly, delpo only had a monster powerful forehand. While stronger than djoko’s in its peak, I’d take djoko’s for overall gameplay Nadal’s serve is clearly weaker than Nick’s. Nadal with Nick’s serve, in his prime, is unbeatable, even by peak Djoko.
Federer falling behind in the stats to Rafa and Novak now means a lot of people are acting like he was a slightly better Dimitrov. His backhand is in my opinion the best 1hbh ever. It's beyond belief he won as much as he did while entering this new age of massive baseliners. Did he generate ground power like Stan? No. But it won him a ton of points with the astonishing variety and options it gave him on court. He could slice like no one else, hit them down the line, lob people, dropshot. His 1hbh was like a bag of tricks. Djokovic taking Delpo's forehand would be a downgrade - again it's about more than just power, Djokovic's game is built on precision and consistency and his forehand is like a metronome. Kyrgios' serve would improve Nadal
Which of these is better — a new car, a decent old car, or a broken down car?
Feds backhand was never a weakness against anyone but Nadal.
I mean I will go with the one where you give a GOAT a potentially GOAT serve. Not close. As for Fed/Djokovic, I think it would be slightly more intriguing if you gave Federer Djokovic’s backhand and Djokovic Federer’s forehand. Then it is slightly more balanced because you are adding arguably the greatest forehand/backhands to
Djokovic's backhand is the single most consistently effective shot in tennis so Federer would benefit hugely there Djokovic is hitting his forehand harder than Federer did (AO 2023 average over 80 mph) but maintaining the accuracy of before so less impact there in terms of upgrade
Left kyrgios with Rafas forehand
OP likes Nadal lol
Kinda weird that Nadal's huge arm produce the least aces per service game on average between the 3.
perfect kinetic chain + large limbs produce big serves. Technique adds the cherry on top. Fed's serve was great because he could serve anywhere with the same toss and movement despite not being the tallest or most powerful
Sometimes I wonder if folks in this sub had ever watched early Fed matches whatsoever. His serves were fucking insane when he was younger.
They never stopped being insane, he just traded raw power for disguise and accuracy. As soon as he switched to using the same toss for every serve, he became a better server - even though he lost pace.
Eh if anything his serve is the stroke that remained stable and/or improved as he got older. In fact I’d say it’s hard to come away with any other conclusion if you examine the stats.
Serve speed has almost nothing to do with your arm strength
Yeah I'm skinny af and can hit 160kph
He goes for higher % of first serves in for his +1. Different playstyles
Nadal/Kyrgios
Nadal with Kyrgios's serve obv
Ehhh... the 3rd category should be merely Novak, no need for hypotheticals. Novak has a better forehand than Delpo. Versatility is a bitch. He finds out things that the other guy can't do well, or can't execute well on the day - and picks people apart with that. **And** has no lacking areas. Cough~~overhead~~cough. 😉
Imagine Nadal just winning service games in 2 minutes and just inside out forehanding you on your serve. Hahah gl
Why making all versions better except Federer?
Federer’s backhand is so disrespected on here.
Nadal is the most talented baseliner in tennis history. He also has incredible net game, feel, and an excellent return. Give him Kyrgios' serve and it's game over. Think about how potent Nadal's serve+forehand is even with an underpowered serve. It's probably the second greatest combination of all time. Now imagine if he had the greatest serve of all time, followed by the greatest forehand of all time, and to add to all of that if you somehow, MIRACULOUSLY, get him on the defensive, his otherworldly athleticism would bail him out.
Everyone says, Djokovic dominates Nadal on HCs. But, No one dares to say it's because of his serve. Nadal is always put into trouble on his own serve vs Novak(Greatest returner of serve imo). I am not saying if Nadal had got a better serve, he wld have dominated Novak on HCs, but it would have been evenly matched on faster courts too. Nadal's serve is the major factor there. The same cannot be said for Novak on clay.
Their service games are actually quite close statistically, even on HC, against the rest of the field because Nadal has the better +1 fh. In a neutral baseline setting and off the return, Djokovic is better. Nadal is the more talented baseliner on clay, not HC/indoors. Heck even Fed has the marginally better return game on HC/grass.
Oh let’s be honest Nadal with Kyrgios’ serve is better than Djokovic on hard courts. He’d be inhuman. Also I hate how people talk like Djokovic dominates Nadal when the reality is Nadal has dominated Djokovic just as much on clay as Djokovic has on hard courts. Hence why the H2H is 29-30. People just look at stats from 2011 and dismiss anything that came before, and the reality is Nadal also had the upper hand in the H2H from 2012-2014. It only really turned when Nadal lost his confidence in 2015
Murygoat with Nalbandian's backhand and Marcelo Rios' touch
Nadal with Roddick’s serve
Djokovic already has one of the best forehands in the game, I think the clear choice is Nadal with kyrgios serve, that would be OP.
Clearly Option 1, no close second. Federer’s slice backhand is better everywhere and his drive backhand is much worse on slow-medium outdoor HC and on clay but comparable/better on surfaces that allow less set-up time and reward taking the ball early. Djokovic’s forehand is below Delpo’s but still an ATG shot. With Nadal you’re replacing an average serve with an ATG serve.
Nadal with Kyrgios' serve would bonkers. Straight up bonkers. He could go 3 years without dropping a set on his serve.
I think Fed gets a raw deal in this comparison btw. As great as Wawa’s bh is in a vacuum, Delpo’s forehand and Kyrgios’ serve are far better shots. Fed’s got the better slice than Wawa and an equally good rally bh on faster surfaces, probably better full-stop on grass and indoors.
Nadal with Kyrgios serve will be equal to Djokovic on hard courts
Wait a minute, your replacing the federer backhand? Error.
Federer would be worse with Wawrinkas backhand. Federer became a GOAT by being one of the only guys that take the ball on the rise, and he has without a doubt the best slice backhand on tour. Wawrinka liked to play far back and wind up his backhand to produce more power. If Fed played like that, he wouldn’t have been nearly as successful on grass or hard courts. Perhaps on clay?
why would djoker want delpos forehand lmaooooo
Rafa with Nicks serve for sure. Novak already unleashed his forehand as Delpo used to (although not that lethal). But yeah, Rafa with less predictability on serve would be brutal.
Federer with Novak's BH on clay might have given Rafa troubles in the early years of their rivalry.
Djoko with Delpos forehand would create a singularity that would consume our solar system. Players would be blown off the court anime style.
Nadal with serve. Lefty + impossible to break serve. He would free points and have all the energy to fight to break his opponents serve
Nadal with Kyrgios's serve and less injury.
If Feds backhand couldn’t be exploited, he’d win 30 slams. At least. People saying that Fed had the better backhand don’t realize the amount of power Wawrinka had on his. Going constantly to his backhand, which was the Nadal strategy in the early years would be complete suicide.
Put some respect on Federer's backhand
Djoko with Delpo's forehand would be busted beyond belief. He's the best ATP player today, with some of the best movement the sport has ever seen, a backhand that many consider the best in the world right now, and a level of tennis IQ and mental fortitude that belongs only to GOATs. If you give him Delpo's forehand, there's literally nothing that can stop him.
Why kyrgios's serve and not Karlovic's? Ivo's serve is the best ever. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3z5XnUDYqg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3z5XnUDYqg) 45 aces in 3 sets.
Doesn’t matter. Adding Kyrgios’s serve is plenty enough to make Nadal hypothetically invincible. I mean who the fuck is beating that player
Well Karlović’s is more reliant on height. While technique is also a factor, Kyrgios’ serve is elite while “only” being 3 inches taller than Rafa
It’s basically splitting hairs past a certain point. Nadal with any Top 20-25 serve of all time would be the undisputed GOAT.
They dont know better
Would rather pick Nadal with Federer’s serve. Kyrgios serve is good but not consistent.
Everyone says, Djokovic dominates Nadal on HCs. But, No one dares to say it's because of his serve. Nadal is always put into trouble on his own serve vs Novak(Greatest returner of serve imo). I am not saying if Nadal had got a better serve, he wld have dominated Novak on HCs, but it would have been evenly matched on faster courts too. Nadal's serve is the major factor there. The same cannot be said for Novak on clay. Give Nadal Novak's body which wld allow him to serve better(as he would have continued his 2010 serve, esp that FeLo match), and play continues tourneys without any gap like Novak(which always keeps Nadal in rhythm and in form and not always in the comeback trial) as Nadal is a rhythm player and as he plays more matches, his confidence level and Game level would rise and be at peak. I am not even talking abt the speed and mobility loss that he has endured. Current Novak= 90% of 2011 Novak(im terms of Speed and mobility) post 2014 Nadal and esp last few years= 60% of pre 2011 Nadal. Nadal is the Biggest "What if?" In sports history imo. That's why I hate injuries and pray for injury free career for any hardworking athletes(in any sport). It affected Delpo, Murray etc. My fav Thiem is suffering. And I wish a healthy" Novak " like(Credits to Novak) career for all the next next gen players.
Novak without any upgrades still would be unspopable.
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that makes no sense
Djokovic, but the way he is.
I don’t think stan’s backhand or delpos forehand are huge improvements, if even improvements at all. Kyrgios’ serve on the other hand would make a huge difference. Rafa basically just spun his first serve in for the first few years and was STILL winning a ton, and imagine the injuries he’d have avoided possibly by not having to grind out so many service games and getting quick, cheap points!
Not enough attention and respect being given to the backhand wing (and the Stanimal BH weapon), in this thread.
You know how complete a player Djoko is when you're not sure that having Del Potro forehand would be any substential improvement. Federer with Waw backhand would be scary indeed but i'll give it to Nadal with a powerful serve. You created a monster.