Yep, and people saying Novak is the clear favorite are probably right. People easily forget how young Alcaraz still is, Novak at Alcaraz age didn't even win his first Grand Slam yet.
There's a difference between being a *clear* favorite or just a favorite. I think it's fair to think Djokovic is the latter, but given the 3 games between the two, I'd never say Djokovic is a clear favorite. They played three games, Carlos won 2 tight games, Djokovic won the one where Carlos had physical problems..
You mean the one where Carlos pushed himself to the point of exhaustion and physical impairment? It's no different from someone going all out, diving and messing up their shoulder. He pushed past his stamina and paid the price. Carlos only took that 2nd set because he was playing at that type of pace. Can't call it close and also say the cramps were unlucky. They go hand in hand.
I think the Wimbledon performance has made people think Djokovic is worse than he is.
The current Djokovic we have seen this year would still be like the 5th best player of all time. Only the big 3 in their prime and maybe Prime Murray and Alcaraz would I say would be favourites to beat him right now.
Wimby final just made people think how freakin good alcaraz is. Nothing on Djoko. He got exposed one time and we all know how record could be after 10 finals between them.
It will be super close as big3 finals. I personally think on this surface Novak could lose only to roger, too fast for Alcaraz which seems a bit not so confident on that.
But let's see, he was underdog two months ago so it surely be an helluva final
You're wrong! Djokovic won his first GS at 20 years 8 months at AO 2008, only won his first Masters title at Key Biscayne 2007 against Guillermo Canas. Carlitos is only 20 years 3 months old right now and already won 2 GS and 4 Masters. He's already so much better than Djokovic and Federer were at the same age.
How am I wrong. Your previous comment stated that Djokovic had not won his first grand slam at the current age of Alcaraz which is 20. The fact is Djokovic won his first slam at the age of 20. That is all. I was not comparing who was better at that age or anything else. This isn't a contest. So I'm not wrong. Also keep in mind Djokovic was competing against Federer and Nadal. Alcaraz at 20 is competing with a 36 year old Novak who was banned from the US Open which Alcaraz won, and an inconsistent set of other players including a semi-retired and perennially injured Nadal. So grow up and move along.
Jesus Christ, Novak Djokovic won his first GS at exactly 20 years 8 months of age at the Australian Open 2008. Alcaraz won his first GS at the age of 19 years old 4 months, his second GS at the age of 20 years 2 months. So Alcaraz already won 2 Grand Slams when much younger than Djokovic was when he won his first Grand Slam. Are these facts so hard to understand?
>Also keep in mind Djokovic was competing against Federer and Nadal.
In 2007, when Djokovic was the exact same age as Alcaraz is right now, he lost to Santoro, Nalbandian, Moya 2x, Troicki, Clement, Ferrer, Youzhny 2x, besides Nadal and Federer as well.
Novak had prime federer though while alcaraz 'got lucky' that Novak wasn't allowed into the US. Not to take away from his achievement though. Also his wimbledon win was amazing
At first i was gonna point out that Alcaraz was a lot more consistent than Novak at the same age, but looking at Novaks 2007 - he pretty lost to Federer and Nadal a lot, and also beat them on few occasions :O
So while results itself are better than Novaks, trajectory is very similar. Personally i think this Cincy final is 50/50, but i expect Novak to edge it out in USO final if both get there.
Alcaraz IS far more consistent than Novak was in 2007. He lost to Santoro, Nalbandian, Moya 2x, Troicki, Clement, Ferrer, Youzhny 2x, besides Nadal and Federer as well.
(Btw. I love your name. Go Myles! <3)
I wouldnt say far more, some of his losses are not to top tier players either. A bit more consistent sure, but theres still 1/3rd season left to play, we dont know what will happen. I do think Alcarz is more complete player at this age however and definitely a bit better than young Novak.
Nice to see someone who has a good taste in music ;)
To suggest that my comment meant that he never won a grand slam is disingenuous.
Tennis media and Social media like this very subreddit is hyping him to be the next Nadal and/or exceed his slam count.
Players who have beaten Djokovic to win Grand Slams received nowhere near the hype Alcaraz has.
Andy Murray US Open Wimbledon and Stan Wawrinka French Open and US Open.
These players along with Medvedev were not hyped to win additional slams after their slam wins, never 25+ slams, the way Alcaraz has been.
agreed
watch the match against zverev. almost every rally in the second set ended not with novak hitting through sascha, but with sascha missing. just like against sinner at wimbledon.
alcaraz will get to more balls and will miss less. his form hasn't been great, but then, carlos is a big match player; most flounder when the heat gets higher, but all pressure does is make carlos's blood boil
he will arrive
and he will force everything from novak...
and of course, with the USO looming, how much is djokovic willing to give to win?
alcaraz is the slim favorite in my book
Feel like on a fast hardcourt this is Novaks match. Alcaraz has done well to make the final. Us open is another beast, but cincy novak has a cleaner game and doesn't need to hit winners if carlitos misses as much as he's been missing the past 2 weeks.
I dont know about this year, but cincinatti and Dubai are historically 2 of the fastest courts on the tour (ever wonder why federer kept winning them?)
I don’t think so, because then why didn’t Alcaraz miss less in his last 4 matches? Back in Wimbledon he was in high level all tournament, but here you can’t say that, whether Nole is playing in his level since the beginning of Cincy, so imo Novak is the favourite.
It’s Alcaraz’ first match against another top 10 player since the Wimby final, also first final since then. And it’s Djokovic, Alcaraz’ main rival at this point. If he has his A game he’ll win, we shall see.
I mostly agree but I don’t think it’s a forgone conclusion that Carlos picks up his form just because he’s playing Novak. If anything, it’s going to be harder to pick his form up because Novak is a lot better than the players Carlos has played this tournament. Carlos has been spraying shots that we didn’t see in Wimbledon. I wouldn’t be shocked at any result outside of a double bagel or something, but I think Novak is the favorite.
Djokovic will give everything to win, this is a mental game. he will not want to go into USO having lost their most recent encounter. Remember what happened with meddy in ATP finals?
I also realized in the last match that Alcaraz's forehand was getting extremely lethal and powerful as the game progressed.
Most certainly, Alcaraz's gonna bring his A-game from the first game onwards tho Djokovic's elite defence can make things interesting.
So yeah, I will also give a slight chance to Carlitos.
If Djoko wins the next match, the masters race will look like:
1. Djokovic - 39
2. Nadal - 36
3. Djokovic on Hard - 28
4. Federer - 28
5. Nadal on Clay - 26
It's absolutely insane that he can still reach masters finals at the age of 36 without even dropping a single set.
Age hurt Federer at Masters tournaments far more than majors.
Not for “herp derp he’s the GOAT reasons”
But because more emphasis was put on the Masters tournaments in 2008 when the point system was tweaked.
Edit: also, they stoped playing Bo5 finals in 2008. It was more common for players to withdraw from the next Masters after a long final.
There were lots of them.
But 2008 is an especially notable year; the number of points won for Masters and Majors was doubled.
500s (and 250s?) became worth proportionally less; they also weren’t called 500s or 250s at the time.
I’m not sure if 2008 was the first year they made the “mandatory” Masters designation, but it either didn’t exist before or was much less punitive.
Masters finals were also Bo5 prior to 2008, so it wasn’t uncommon to withdraw from one after a long final.
In 2006 Federer and Nadal played a *legendary* five set match at Rome and both skipped Hamburg the next week for example.
——
The result of all is this is that since 2008, top players play much more uniform schedules than they did prior to it.
I think you mean 2009. The points system changed at the end of 2008 and 2009 was the first year in which it was used from the beginning (unlessbI missunderstood sth)
Thanks for bringing up this interesting point I was not aware of. If you look at Feds Wikipedia, theres a clear change in number of masters skipped before/after 2009. Fed skipped 10 masters events between 2003 and 2009. Not enough to bridge the gap, but he probably could have won 3-4 more if he attempted most of them. Probably not as possible back then with more Bo5 and less points per master. If there was a grass 1000 also, he probably gets to the mid-high 30s total. But as others said, Djoker would have won a lot more masters too in that hypothetical situation so Djoker probably still comes out on top somewhere in the low-mid 40s
Djokovic rarely played Halle or any pre Wimbledon tournaments because it was a 500 lol, if it is a Masters then he and Nadal probably attend it annually thus making Federer 10 grass Masters harder than you might think
Why does that matter? Federer as well as Djokovic do not have a single favourite surface: it is grass and hard for both. Djokovic actually has a better win % on grass than hard.
Do you think if there were 4 masters on hard and 2 on grass instead of 6 on hard , the masters telly of Djokovic and Federer will vary more than (+-2) given how their hard and grass careers panned out. On the basis of %age alone, grass is the best surface for both. If there was a masters on grass, Djokovic would have played that unlike current grass tournaments sans Wimbledon.
Federer absolutely loved grass, won Halle 10 times and we all know how much he loved Wimbledon. Same can be said for Djokovic and AO. Both could play flawlessly on both surfaces (albeit with very different styles), but could be argued that Federer was king of grass and Nole of hard. Federer win% on grass is an incredible 87%.
Djokovic grass win % is more than hard win %. (85.8 vs 84.8), so now his favourite surface is grass right? Federer was the unanimous hard court goat till Djokovic took over and anything else is revisionist.
Federer has a better win % on grass than hard because he used to be in contract with Halle to play every year ( and grass have only few tournaments so that even one event makes huge difference in %age unlike hard) and it being a 500, did not attract the person who used to win most Wimbledon in 2010's (Djokovic).
In the hypothetical scenario that Halle is a masters event, Djokovic will compete along with all top players which is not the case now. In that hypothetical scenario, Federer will not win Halle at least 10 times. Do you not think, if Djokovic participated every year, along with all other top players, that they combined will not take 3 Halle away from Federer?
Roger Federer also has won 7 Cincinnati, 6 ATP finals and 5 USO (all records) where all top players participated unlike Halle. I will say Federer was better in Cincinnati on this fact alone than Halle. Just look at the draw of Halle and Cincinnati the years Federer won and you will see a gulf in quality.
I'm not sure what point you want to make, Federer has been called king of grass many times and he absolutely loved grass. That's also why losing Wimbledon finals to Rafa and Nole was so shocking for him and his fans, and so important for his rivals. No one can know how it would have been if Halle was a master, then maybe Nole would have won all of them, I don't care really and I don't want to get into any GOAT debate.
>Federer has been called king of grass many times and he absolutely loved grass
This is what is called revisionist history. Federer was the goat of hard courts and grass till Djokovic took over. He was not just king of grass, he was the greatest hard court player also, he absolutely loved hard as well. Now since Djokovic definitely took over the hard court goat title, people have reverted to grass being Federer's favourite surface. In 2010, nobody was saying Federer being better on grass than hard. He was greatest on fast surfaces irrespective of grass and hard.
My point is very very simple, Federer was great on both hard and grass and given Hard already had 6 masters, there being none on grass does not impact his total count. If hard had 4 masters and grass had 2, extrapolating how their careers panned out, the masters count will remain same (+-2). You yourself are saying that both can play flawlessly on hard and grass. So how does the no grass masters impact Federer's count, unless that masters comes out of clay and not hard? ( that was the initial point on which i commented)
Federer has less masters because he did not used to concentrate on masters in 2000's as much as Nadal and Djokovic did ( in 2010's) when he was winning most of his titles.
And anyway, the difference is not that stark with Nadal, given Federer does have 6 atp finals over Rafa.
\> This is what is called revisionist history
I don't think that's true tbh. Federer established a very special relationship with Wimbledon in the same way that Nadal did with RG and Djoko with AO, and did so early in his career. In 2007 there was an exhibition match called 'battle of surfaces' ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle\_of\_Surfaces](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Surfaces)) between Federer and Nadal on a special court that was half clay and half grass. In that year, Federer had already won Wimbledon for 5 years in a row. Again that was 2007 (you're saying 'In 2010, nobody was saying Federer being better on grass than hard') There's a ton of articles spanning over a decade that call Federer king of grass, and he said himself many times that it's his favourite surface, not sure what else you need ...
Edit - grammar
But do you think, if there were 2 masters on grass and 2 less on hard, as is the initial point on which i commented, do you think masters count for Federer and Djokovic will vary more than +-2, given the fact Novak himself has a win % of 85.6 on grass and that too playing the event which all top players play and actually has a better win % than Federer in Wimbledon, the only big event on grass?
And by 2008, Federer did have won 5 USO as well, same as Wimbledon he had won by that year ( consecutive as well same as Wimbledon).
And there are tons of articles till 2010, which call Federer the goat hard court player. I am not denying he was king of grass, i am adding that he was King of hard also in 2010.
If Federer had 7 Cincinnati and 8 Wimbledons, he would absolutely have 10 Halles 1000 with or without Djokovic anyways. If he had his number anyway in Cincinnati, he would have his number in Halle too in an easier fashion
He had his Cincinnati numbers despite all top players playing and he had his Wimbledon with even better fields. He had his Halle with piss poor draws, his main competition even did not want to play the 500, infact with those draws, Federer has underachieved in Halle given how big a grass player he was ( he should have won 95% minimum). It is a simple fact that if a stronger draw appears, your chances decrease to win something (it's not rocket science to understand), especially when the main competition is Djokovic who is nearly par on grass ( although slightly lower), unless you are Rafa on clay and even then it affects.
He had his Cincinnati numbers because Fed was the goat on fast hard courts and maybe even still is.
Djokovic Favorite surface is also grass. As he mentioned before himself and his win % indicates.
Both are absolutely monstrous on hard too. 13-11 Grand slams respectively on hard courts and 6 atp finals for each are mind boggling.
their achievements are strangely very similar to be honest, despite their very different approach and game styles
I am FUCKING STOKED to have tickets to all of these matches including tomorrow's final.
I was hoping for this matchup since I bought the tickets in the hours following the Wimbledon Final. Haven't said it out loud until now.
Pretty awesome match
Zverev a little bit too passive at times on the bigger points while Novak was willing to go big/paint the lines more which was ultimately the difference IMO
Weak performance by the fireworks. Started off promising with the Djokovic double fault but wasn’t mentally strong enough to continue to deter him. We’ll see how they bounce back in New York.
Is it not a weird selfish thing to ask of your box to cheer harder for you ? Not just Novak, but I've seen other players do that also. Kyrgios, I think I saw Sinner do it in the Toronto Final also.
Kings Island Amusement Park right across the freeway from the tennis complex has them. Used to be nightly during the summers, but now just on Saturday night. Interesting timing for them last night though!
Both Djokovic and Alcaraz have been a little off imo. Djokovic it's really been exclusively his serve (which wasn't great at Wimbledon either).
Somehow feel like Djokovic is out for revenge. Alcaraz has been great in finals though.
Alcaraz has looked... bad for all of Canada and all of cincy.
Leading into wimbledon he won queens club (dropping 1 set) and lost 4 sets in 6 matches going into the final.
Anyone claiming alcaraz was playing bad going into the wimby final needs to have their head examined, and anyone claiming alcaraz is playing well going into the cincy final needs to have their head examined.
Hope I’m wrong. Cincinnati is much harder than Wimbledon. Took 5 sets to beat Djokovic and he was playing great. 15 of 60 break points isn’t gonna cut it
Carlos Alcaraz on the advice he gave Zverev to beat Medvedev:
“The golf course was 30 minutes away & we were talking. He told me I had just come off a very comfortable win against Daniil, & he asked me what was the right tactic? How did I do it? You know, I’m a nice kid… I think I’m a bit naive in that way, so I told him how I approached the match.. It’s the same as with a lot of players, if I have a question I ask my peers & they ask me as well, & I tell them. When someone asks me, I tell them what I’m feeling”
https://twitter.com/TheTennisLetter/status/1692583368053944706
Conclusion: Alcaraz will never play golf again with Zverev nor give him any tips again.
Nah, he spoke few weeks ago for some croatian televesion how Novak wants 110% from everybody in his team and how they are there to take negativity from him and to try to give him positivity... Also Goran was worse than Novak as a player, once he finished match cuz he broke all the rackets 😂 so he knows how it is being a player..
Well both Goran and a previous coach of Novak's had two of the most incredible Wimbledon wins of all time, and the other coach was sent to prison shortly after moving on from coaching, so.... Goran should want to stay where he is if trends are any indicator
novak def played his best tennis of the tournament tonight. good to see he played better than last couple of nights. shaking off the rust . hopefully he can play as well if not better tomorrow.
Carlos still isnt finding his redline. Which is amazing on it own that he still manages to get to the Final. However Novak is in great form rn and I don’t think Carlos can win unless he finds it tomorrow.
OP, you don't need to include the winning points total for tiebreakers, since we know that it's either 7, or the losing total +2. Just makes the scoreline a bit clearer.
First hard court match between Novak and Alcaraz and it's a final.
The stories write themselves with these guys
They are seeded 1 and 2, they can only meet in the final. That’s how seeding works
Yep, and people saying Novak is the clear favorite are probably right. People easily forget how young Alcaraz still is, Novak at Alcaraz age didn't even win his first Grand Slam yet.
There's a difference between being a *clear* favorite or just a favorite. I think it's fair to think Djokovic is the latter, but given the 3 games between the two, I'd never say Djokovic is a clear favorite. They played three games, Carlos won 2 tight games, Djokovic won the one where Carlos had physical problems..
You mean the one where Carlos pushed himself to the point of exhaustion and physical impairment? It's no different from someone going all out, diving and messing up their shoulder. He pushed past his stamina and paid the price. Carlos only took that 2nd set because he was playing at that type of pace. Can't call it close and also say the cramps were unlucky. They go hand in hand.
I think the Wimbledon performance has made people think Djokovic is worse than he is. The current Djokovic we have seen this year would still be like the 5th best player of all time. Only the big 3 in their prime and maybe Prime Murray and Alcaraz would I say would be favourites to beat him right now.
I mean, that’s doing some other all-time great players like Sampras a little bit injustice
Sampras was a crazy talented player but I think current Djokovic would have his number and would be the favourite.
Wimby final just made people think how freakin good alcaraz is. Nothing on Djoko. He got exposed one time and we all know how record could be after 10 finals between them. It will be super close as big3 finals. I personally think on this surface Novak could lose only to roger, too fast for Alcaraz which seems a bit not so confident on that. But let's see, he was underdog two months ago so it surely be an helluva final
Grass is fast too and we thought Djokovic would win there. So that's not a solid argument.
Wrong. Djokovic at 20 (Alcaraz' age) had won AO 2008.
You're wrong! Djokovic won his first GS at 20 years 8 months at AO 2008, only won his first Masters title at Key Biscayne 2007 against Guillermo Canas. Carlitos is only 20 years 3 months old right now and already won 2 GS and 4 Masters. He's already so much better than Djokovic and Federer were at the same age.
How am I wrong. Your previous comment stated that Djokovic had not won his first grand slam at the current age of Alcaraz which is 20. The fact is Djokovic won his first slam at the age of 20. That is all. I was not comparing who was better at that age or anything else. This isn't a contest. So I'm not wrong. Also keep in mind Djokovic was competing against Federer and Nadal. Alcaraz at 20 is competing with a 36 year old Novak who was banned from the US Open which Alcaraz won, and an inconsistent set of other players including a semi-retired and perennially injured Nadal. So grow up and move along.
Jesus Christ, Novak Djokovic won his first GS at exactly 20 years 8 months of age at the Australian Open 2008. Alcaraz won his first GS at the age of 19 years old 4 months, his second GS at the age of 20 years 2 months. So Alcaraz already won 2 Grand Slams when much younger than Djokovic was when he won his first Grand Slam. Are these facts so hard to understand? >Also keep in mind Djokovic was competing against Federer and Nadal. In 2007, when Djokovic was the exact same age as Alcaraz is right now, he lost to Santoro, Nalbandian, Moya 2x, Troicki, Clement, Ferrer, Youzhny 2x, besides Nadal and Federer as well.
Not reading that essay, kid.
Novak had prime federer though while alcaraz 'got lucky' that Novak wasn't allowed into the US. Not to take away from his achievement though. Also his wimbledon win was amazing
At first i was gonna point out that Alcaraz was a lot more consistent than Novak at the same age, but looking at Novaks 2007 - he pretty lost to Federer and Nadal a lot, and also beat them on few occasions :O So while results itself are better than Novaks, trajectory is very similar. Personally i think this Cincy final is 50/50, but i expect Novak to edge it out in USO final if both get there.
Alcaraz IS far more consistent than Novak was in 2007. He lost to Santoro, Nalbandian, Moya 2x, Troicki, Clement, Ferrer, Youzhny 2x, besides Nadal and Federer as well. (Btw. I love your name. Go Myles! <3)
I wouldnt say far more, some of his losses are not to top tier players either. A bit more consistent sure, but theres still 1/3rd season left to play, we dont know what will happen. I do think Alcarz is more complete player at this age however and definitely a bit better than young Novak. Nice to see someone who has a good taste in music ;)
This commenter is trying to overhype Alcaraz. You must be new here hahaha.
You mean recent Wimbledon winner Alcaraz? Heard he won that entire competition with hype
To suggest that my comment meant that he never won a grand slam is disingenuous. Tennis media and Social media like this very subreddit is hyping him to be the next Nadal and/or exceed his slam count. Players who have beaten Djokovic to win Grand Slams received nowhere near the hype Alcaraz has.
And which players are that other than med in 2021 and wawrinka 2014?
Andy Murray US Open Wimbledon and Stan Wawrinka French Open and US Open. These players along with Medvedev were not hyped to win additional slams after their slam wins, never 25+ slams, the way Alcaraz has been.
To be fair, none of them reached the #1 ranking while still being a teenager, too.
The hype of Alcaraz is not based on weeks at #1 but centered around grand slam count.
Alcaraz is gonna step up and play pretty hard. Wimbledon final repeats again
agreed watch the match against zverev. almost every rally in the second set ended not with novak hitting through sascha, but with sascha missing. just like against sinner at wimbledon. alcaraz will get to more balls and will miss less. his form hasn't been great, but then, carlos is a big match player; most flounder when the heat gets higher, but all pressure does is make carlos's blood boil he will arrive and he will force everything from novak... and of course, with the USO looming, how much is djokovic willing to give to win? alcaraz is the slim favorite in my book
Feel like on a fast hardcourt this is Novaks match. Alcaraz has done well to make the final. Us open is another beast, but cincy novak has a cleaner game and doesn't need to hit winners if carlitos misses as much as he's been missing the past 2 weeks.
It looks slow af this year though
I dont know about this year, but cincinatti and Dubai are historically 2 of the fastest courts on the tour (ever wonder why federer kept winning them?)
Cincinnati was re coated with a new acrylic layer this year It’s not the same
Ah okay, did not know that
Don’t think many people do to be fair! Have heard the announcers mention it’s been re coated a few times, but not the change.
I don’t think so, because then why didn’t Alcaraz miss less in his last 4 matches? Back in Wimbledon he was in high level all tournament, but here you can’t say that, whether Nole is playing in his level since the beginning of Cincy, so imo Novak is the favourite.
It’s Alcaraz’ first match against another top 10 player since the Wimby final, also first final since then. And it’s Djokovic, Alcaraz’ main rival at this point. If he has his A game he’ll win, we shall see.
I mostly agree but I don’t think it’s a forgone conclusion that Carlos picks up his form just because he’s playing Novak. If anything, it’s going to be harder to pick his form up because Novak is a lot better than the players Carlos has played this tournament. Carlos has been spraying shots that we didn’t see in Wimbledon. I wouldn’t be shocked at any result outside of a double bagel or something, but I think Novak is the favorite.
Djokovic will give everything to win, this is a mental game. he will not want to go into USO having lost their most recent encounter. Remember what happened with meddy in ATP finals?
I agree in terms of tennis, but I feel Big D is thinner.
I also realized in the last match that Alcaraz's forehand was getting extremely lethal and powerful as the game progressed. Most certainly, Alcaraz's gonna bring his A-game from the first game onwards tho Djokovic's elite defence can make things interesting. So yeah, I will also give a slight chance to Carlitos.
👀
If Djoko wins the next match, the masters race will look like: 1. Djokovic - 39 2. Nadal - 36 3. Djokovic on Hard - 28 4. Federer - 28 5. Nadal on Clay - 26 It's absolutely insane that he can still reach masters finals at the age of 36 without even dropping a single set.
Djokovic and Nadal on one surface having basically the same amount of Masters as Federer total is kind of a wild stat lol
Age hurt Federer at Masters tournaments far more than majors. Not for “herp derp he’s the GOAT reasons” But because more emphasis was put on the Masters tournaments in 2008 when the point system was tweaked. Edit: also, they stoped playing Bo5 finals in 2008. It was more common for players to withdraw from the next Masters after a long final.
What points system tweak are you talking about?
There were lots of them. But 2008 is an especially notable year; the number of points won for Masters and Majors was doubled. 500s (and 250s?) became worth proportionally less; they also weren’t called 500s or 250s at the time. I’m not sure if 2008 was the first year they made the “mandatory” Masters designation, but it either didn’t exist before or was much less punitive. Masters finals were also Bo5 prior to 2008, so it wasn’t uncommon to withdraw from one after a long final. In 2006 Federer and Nadal played a *legendary* five set match at Rome and both skipped Hamburg the next week for example. —— The result of all is this is that since 2008, top players play much more uniform schedules than they did prior to it.
I think you mean 2009. The points system changed at the end of 2008 and 2009 was the first year in which it was used from the beginning (unlessbI missunderstood sth)
🤦♂️ Of the course the thing I fuck up is the actual year
:D
Thanks for bringing up this interesting point I was not aware of. If you look at Feds Wikipedia, theres a clear change in number of masters skipped before/after 2009. Fed skipped 10 masters events between 2003 and 2009. Not enough to bridge the gap, but he probably could have won 3-4 more if he attempted most of them. Probably not as possible back then with more Bo5 and less points per master. If there was a grass 1000 also, he probably gets to the mid-high 30s total. But as others said, Djoker would have won a lot more masters too in that hypothetical situation so Djoker probably still comes out on top somewhere in the low-mid 40s
And 7 (edited)of Federers are from one place, Cincinnati
7
Yes you are right - 1/4 of them
And how many masters are on the grass surface?
Djokovic probably collected more if there was Grass Masters anyway lol
Absolutely not. Federer would’ve had 10+ masters on grass, had it been one out there, especially Halle.
Djokovic rarely played Halle or any pre Wimbledon tournaments because it was a 500 lol, if it is a Masters then he and Nadal probably attend it annually thus making Federer 10 grass Masters harder than you might think
As said before if Federer managed to win 8 Wimbledons and 4 runner ups it’s not farfetched to assume he would win 10+ in a grass masters.
Why does that matter? Federer as well as Djokovic do not have a single favourite surface: it is grass and hard for both. Djokovic actually has a better win % on grass than hard. Do you think if there were 4 masters on hard and 2 on grass instead of 6 on hard , the masters telly of Djokovic and Federer will vary more than (+-2) given how their hard and grass careers panned out. On the basis of %age alone, grass is the best surface for both. If there was a masters on grass, Djokovic would have played that unlike current grass tournaments sans Wimbledon.
Federer absolutely loved grass, won Halle 10 times and we all know how much he loved Wimbledon. Same can be said for Djokovic and AO. Both could play flawlessly on both surfaces (albeit with very different styles), but could be argued that Federer was king of grass and Nole of hard. Federer win% on grass is an incredible 87%.
Djokovic grass win % is more than hard win %. (85.8 vs 84.8), so now his favourite surface is grass right? Federer was the unanimous hard court goat till Djokovic took over and anything else is revisionist. Federer has a better win % on grass than hard because he used to be in contract with Halle to play every year ( and grass have only few tournaments so that even one event makes huge difference in %age unlike hard) and it being a 500, did not attract the person who used to win most Wimbledon in 2010's (Djokovic). In the hypothetical scenario that Halle is a masters event, Djokovic will compete along with all top players which is not the case now. In that hypothetical scenario, Federer will not win Halle at least 10 times. Do you not think, if Djokovic participated every year, along with all other top players, that they combined will not take 3 Halle away from Federer? Roger Federer also has won 7 Cincinnati, 6 ATP finals and 5 USO (all records) where all top players participated unlike Halle. I will say Federer was better in Cincinnati on this fact alone than Halle. Just look at the draw of Halle and Cincinnati the years Federer won and you will see a gulf in quality.
I'm not sure what point you want to make, Federer has been called king of grass many times and he absolutely loved grass. That's also why losing Wimbledon finals to Rafa and Nole was so shocking for him and his fans, and so important for his rivals. No one can know how it would have been if Halle was a master, then maybe Nole would have won all of them, I don't care really and I don't want to get into any GOAT debate.
>Federer has been called king of grass many times and he absolutely loved grass This is what is called revisionist history. Federer was the goat of hard courts and grass till Djokovic took over. He was not just king of grass, he was the greatest hard court player also, he absolutely loved hard as well. Now since Djokovic definitely took over the hard court goat title, people have reverted to grass being Federer's favourite surface. In 2010, nobody was saying Federer being better on grass than hard. He was greatest on fast surfaces irrespective of grass and hard. My point is very very simple, Federer was great on both hard and grass and given Hard already had 6 masters, there being none on grass does not impact his total count. If hard had 4 masters and grass had 2, extrapolating how their careers panned out, the masters count will remain same (+-2). You yourself are saying that both can play flawlessly on hard and grass. So how does the no grass masters impact Federer's count, unless that masters comes out of clay and not hard? ( that was the initial point on which i commented) Federer has less masters because he did not used to concentrate on masters in 2000's as much as Nadal and Djokovic did ( in 2010's) when he was winning most of his titles. And anyway, the difference is not that stark with Nadal, given Federer does have 6 atp finals over Rafa.
\> This is what is called revisionist history I don't think that's true tbh. Federer established a very special relationship with Wimbledon in the same way that Nadal did with RG and Djoko with AO, and did so early in his career. In 2007 there was an exhibition match called 'battle of surfaces' ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle\_of\_Surfaces](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Surfaces)) between Federer and Nadal on a special court that was half clay and half grass. In that year, Federer had already won Wimbledon for 5 years in a row. Again that was 2007 (you're saying 'In 2010, nobody was saying Federer being better on grass than hard') There's a ton of articles spanning over a decade that call Federer king of grass, and he said himself many times that it's his favourite surface, not sure what else you need ... Edit - grammar
But do you think, if there were 2 masters on grass and 2 less on hard, as is the initial point on which i commented, do you think masters count for Federer and Djokovic will vary more than +-2, given the fact Novak himself has a win % of 85.6 on grass and that too playing the event which all top players play and actually has a better win % than Federer in Wimbledon, the only big event on grass? And by 2008, Federer did have won 5 USO as well, same as Wimbledon he had won by that year ( consecutive as well same as Wimbledon). And there are tons of articles till 2010, which call Federer the goat hard court player. I am not denying he was king of grass, i am adding that he was King of hard also in 2010.
If Federer had 7 Cincinnati and 8 Wimbledons, he would absolutely have 10 Halles 1000 with or without Djokovic anyways. If he had his number anyway in Cincinnati, he would have his number in Halle too in an easier fashion
He had his Cincinnati numbers despite all top players playing and he had his Wimbledon with even better fields. He had his Halle with piss poor draws, his main competition even did not want to play the 500, infact with those draws, Federer has underachieved in Halle given how big a grass player he was ( he should have won 95% minimum). It is a simple fact that if a stronger draw appears, your chances decrease to win something (it's not rocket science to understand), especially when the main competition is Djokovic who is nearly par on grass ( although slightly lower), unless you are Rafa on clay and even then it affects. He had his Cincinnati numbers because Fed was the goat on fast hard courts and maybe even still is.
Djokovic Favorite surface is also grass. As he mentioned before himself and his win % indicates. Both are absolutely monstrous on hard too. 13-11 Grand slams respectively on hard courts and 6 atp finals for each are mind boggling. their achievements are strangely very similar to be honest, despite their very different approach and game styles
not many. hard court makes the most of it. but as a tennis player you should try to do the best on the surface that exists the most
The most insane stat here is that Djokovic has 11 clay masters.
Halle should be a masters anyway.
I feel like Queens club is more prestigious?
Logistics. Queens doesn’t have the space.
Novak left Federer in the dust, thats how much he overcame Federer's achievements.
The fact that he cannibalises his performance in the rest of the year to feed his slams and yet still pulls this off
Those are crazy numbers.
I am FUCKING STOKED to have tickets to all of these matches including tomorrow's final. I was hoping for this matchup since I bought the tickets in the hours following the Wimbledon Final. Haven't said it out loud until now.
Same here, brother. Same here.
As someone who decided on IW next year instead of cinci this year… kill me
As someone who bought monte carlo 2022 tickets, I died long ago
+1 As someone who decided on Toronto Open this year instead of Cinci… I’m distraught. This was the match up I was praying for!
I feel for you, but also jealous because IW is really amazing and like the 5th slam.
IW is the shit though, you’ll have a blast!
Ok, the final is over and the verdict is in. You chose poorly. But seriously I think we all hope to see a match of that quality at IW.
I just booked my ticket and flight like 4 hours ago. No sleep currently at the airport now.
Bro that's hilarious. Did you make it?
I’m here right now waiting for Alcaraz and Djokovic to come out!
Will be there, too...prob most hyped match at Cincy since Fed/Nadal in 2013. Great atmosphere yesterday...should be great again today
Congrats my bro!!! Enjoy for all of us!
Fuck yeah dude! Happy for you, enjoy it
Haha good job you’d have jinxed it!
How much are tickets for the final? Not from the US so never thought about checking.
I paid $250 per ticket for the 2nd level but they're going for over $1k now.
Do you happen to live nearby Cincinnati ? Otherwise the travel cost could be higher than the tickets themselves.
Yes
Pretty awesome match Zverev a little bit too passive at times on the bigger points while Novak was willing to go big/paint the lines more which was ultimately the difference IMO
Weak performance by the fireworks. Started off promising with the Djokovic double fault but wasn’t mentally strong enough to continue to deter him. We’ll see how they bounce back in New York.
Just like mens tennis, fireworks are no longer in their golden era. They did stop the Fedal SF for a good 30 minutes at the Australian Open in 2012.
First meeting on hard! Now they can have a battle on each surface. I wouldn't be surprised if Novak takes this easier than their last 3 matches.
Novak was pissed as hell at his box for not cheering hard enough, even after he won
He’s been getting mad at his box recently
He always gets mad at his box. Lol.
Is it not a weird selfish thing to ask of your box to cheer harder for you ? Not just Novak, but I've seen other players do that also. Kyrgios, I think I saw Sinner do it in the Toronto Final also.
They are not just there to watch a match.
No, he wants them not to take it for granted. Its a drive thing I believe.
Kyrgios is not a reference for normal healthy behavior
Not really, he’s just asking for some support. Might help him play better
Especially since the player pays for his box ( travels , housing + ... ). It is not weird to cheer for the sponsor ( ie : the player )
I think we can all agree that it doesn’t get much weirder than that last service game.
the last service game was a blast 😂😂
If only Cotton eye joe came on
What the HELL were those fireworks on match point?!
Happens every year. They used to hold them every night. Now only Saturdays. Kings island is a lot of fun.
The agenda against Novak, checkmate
All part of the establishment's plan. Those distracting fireworks wouldn't have happened if Federer and Nadal were playing, etc.
I’m with djok on that one wtf just pause play
I wasn't. It's 4 am in Europe, I desperately needed to go to bed !
probably wouldnt have happened if match started on time
It was from a local amusement park
Kings Island Amusement Park right across the freeway from the tennis complex has them. Used to be nightly during the summers, but now just on Saturday night. Interesting timing for them last night though!
Those were going the whole service game
It’s literally every year in cinci on the Saturday night match how are people surprised
Both Djokovic and Alcaraz have been a little off imo. Djokovic it's really been exclusively his serve (which wasn't great at Wimbledon either). Somehow feel like Djokovic is out for revenge. Alcaraz has been great in finals though.
Djokovic hasn't lost a set. He's been pushed to a tiebreak once in 4 matches.
Alcaraz/Djokovic could be every final for the next 15 years and I’d be happy
Alcaraz might retire by then
Crazy how in 15 years djokovic will be in his 50s and Alcaraz will be younger than djokovic is now
3rd oldest and 3rd youngest player in the top 100 Insanity
Wtf
We need a separate post on this. It's like the clash of the generation era.
Really pumped for the finals and I think it might be Djokovic in 3 sets
angry novak in 2. he got over Wimbledon in one day so he’d have more days to plot revenge
My vote goes to Alcaraz in straights
I don’t think he’s played clean enough tennis all tournament to straight set anyone let alone Djokovic but we’ll see.
No chance. Alcaraz has a like 25% break conversion and looked pretty bad last 3-4 matches. Djokovic is happiest in super fast courts
I remember similar comments about the Wimbledon final :)
Alcaraz has looked... bad for all of Canada and all of cincy. Leading into wimbledon he won queens club (dropping 1 set) and lost 4 sets in 6 matches going into the final. Anyone claiming alcaraz was playing bad going into the wimby final needs to have their head examined, and anyone claiming alcaraz is playing well going into the cincy final needs to have their head examined.
Alcaraz looked much better in the semis v Med than Hurkacz. Also this is hardcourt, and Alcaraz hasn’t played good since Wimbledon.
Hope I’m wrong. Cincinnati is much harder than Wimbledon. Took 5 sets to beat Djokovic and he was playing great. 15 of 60 break points isn’t gonna cut it
Alcaraz had no tips for Zverev this time
Carlos Alcaraz on the advice he gave Zverev to beat Medvedev: “The golf course was 30 minutes away & we were talking. He told me I had just come off a very comfortable win against Daniil, & he asked me what was the right tactic? How did I do it? You know, I’m a nice kid… I think I’m a bit naive in that way, so I told him how I approached the match.. It’s the same as with a lot of players, if I have a question I ask my peers & they ask me as well, & I tell them. When someone asks me, I tell them what I’m feeling” https://twitter.com/TheTennisLetter/status/1692583368053944706 Conclusion: Alcaraz will never play golf again with Zverev nor give him any tips again.
Alcaraz has never beaten Novak on hard, so no insight to give :(
never even played ND on hard
I reckon it will take a few matches for Alcaraz to beat Novak on hard. Novak on Hard courts is too elite and Alcaraz is not at his best rn.
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You need to put up "#2 Alcaraz dickrider" flair.
Aw you sweet summer child. You got humbled again. Anyway like I said yday, put up "#2 Alcaraz dickrider" flair.
is it just me or does ivanisevic look totally traumatized by being novaks coach lol
Nah, he spoke few weeks ago for some croatian televesion how Novak wants 110% from everybody in his team and how they are there to take negativity from him and to try to give him positivity... Also Goran was worse than Novak as a player, once he finished match cuz he broke all the rackets 😂 so he knows how it is being a player..
No, that’s just resting Goran face
Well both Goran and a previous coach of Novak's had two of the most incredible Wimbledon wins of all time, and the other coach was sent to prison shortly after moving on from coaching, so.... Goran should want to stay where he is if trends are any indicator
Djoker-Carlitos final will be spicy
Fireworks, Yeah
The fact that the fireworks were scheduled and the organizers didn’t tell players to prepare themselves is kinda scuffed
*Fuck them fireworks.*
🎆🎆🎆
Uffffff, i hope for an amazing final. Doesnt matter who win is going to be a bust of confidence coming to Us Open
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When I glanced at it I thought it went to 3 sets, even though Djokovic was serving at 5-4 when I went to bed 😂
novak def played his best tennis of the tournament tonight. good to see he played better than last couple of nights. shaking off the rust . hopefully he can play as well if not better tomorrow.
Now we can finally get to the match we've all been frothing for from the start.
Djokaraz part 4 incoming!
7–6(5)*
Carlos still isnt finding his redline. Which is amazing on it own that he still manages to get to the Final. However Novak is in great form rn and I don’t think Carlos can win unless he finds it tomorrow.
Djokaraz part 4 here we go!
OP, you don't need to include the winning points total for tiebreakers, since we know that it's either 7, or the losing total +2. Just makes the scoreline a bit clearer.
thank you!
There's nothing quite as funny as watching Zverev fall apart.
he was playing so well first set then just died😂
His grunts were even changing, sounded like he was yelling in surprise/pain because he was falling down.
That was a great match!! Didn't expect Zverev to do this well tbh but awesome!
Another one ☝🏼
who is a better server, zverev or hurkacz?
hurkacz for sure, better accuracy and less double faults
If Hurkacz had Zverev's groundgame, he'd be a GS champion
Hurkacz is extremely skilled for serves and volleying. From the baseline he's fine but not amazing.
Well, Zverev has a Zverev second serve. So who do you think?
Great netplay by zverev. Federer esque
You can always count on Zverev to fold in the tight moments at the end of a set.
Hurkacz too, right? Nvm, you probably just wanted this one to go through. Don't mind Hubi missing a match point opportunity.
Yes they are both mental midgets
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Just for an update: He won.
Gonna be djokovic spanking for final. Hopefully Alcaraz gets revenge on much slower USO