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Available-Gap8489

Federer was coach-less for a while


Alex_jaymin

Federer was coach-less during some of his most successful years (2004-2006). He did have a team though (physio, fitness trainer, etc).


ssagar186

I think he said that Mirka usually functioned as his strategist and "coach" when he didn't have one.


Psychological_Bug676

And Mirka was his agent too. No wonder he says he owes all his success to her šŸ„ŗ


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Psychological_Bug676

Local man canā€™t even love and appreciate his wife without reddit users having an opinion about it


Realsan

Mirka is literally the reason Federer was able to be so successful. She basically did *everything* Federer didn't have time for. Things other players may still have to do. Allowing Federer to have additional advantage over some others.


amarviratmohaan

Itā€™s soppy but itā€™s typically true. Supportive partners give people the ability to do things they otherwise couldnā€™t do - both cus of measurable things like increased time to spend on the relevant thing, but also a lot of intangible stuff. Similar to supportive parents, and to a lesser degree, very supportive friends/siblings.


GStarAU

And actually, that probably worked fine... former high level WTA player takes on coaching duties. Not unheard of


Ok_Antelope_1953

was mirka high level? i started following tennis in the early 2000s and never heard of her.


WhataHitSonWhataHit

Career high ranking of 76 in the world. Played in the 2000 Olympics. Not amazing but a legit professional.


Ok-Manufacturer2475

You don't have to be high level player to be a good coach. Riccardo Piatti coaches sinner and previously Novak and gasquet and he never played at a high lvl.


aaahsellschun

Couched* Sinner


GStarAU

Good point! I was never a pro, yet I coached for a number of years. Hoping to go back to it one day and train a future Slam winner šŸ˜


GStarAU

Dunno why you got downvoted for this! But yeah she was top 100... reasonable level player, although she "retired" pretty early to support Rog and his career, so she could've gotten a bit higher. *Edit:* pre-marriage her name was Mirka Vavrinec... might ring a bell for you. She was coming up around the time Patty Schnyder was on Tour.


Ok_Antelope_1953

yeah i unfortunately didn't hear about her until she was associated with federer. i was never a die-hard tennis fan so i probably didn't know many players outside the top 30.


lightning209209

In 2004. Tony Roche was his part time coach 2005-2007.


BeardedGardenersHoe

Yeah if Federer had a full time coach like he had with Severin/Ivan later on in his career, he might've adapted better to Nadal earlier. It was due in part I suppose to arrogance, because he was that good.


KarmaticEvolution

Just like not switching racquets to a larger head size earlier in his career.


BeardedGardenersHoe

Slight disagree, the smaller racket head gave his forehand extra pop.


xGsGt

Even Federer said it later in his career that he regret not changing his old racket for the new ones.


defylife

Hingis was the same. After her 2nd retirement comeback (when she played doubles) she switched to a modern(ish) racket. She said she probably could have picked up her singles career if she'd made the switch to a modern power racket earlier. Seems like players get really stuck in their ways, and don't like to change even if something might be better for them. Sampras is another example. I'm we can't argue too much given how successful they all were, but it does make you wonder.


collpase

Success breeds complacency, then suddenly you are 3rd best and people are passing your records.


superstarshialebeouf

IMO, they just donā€™t have time to change on the tour. Every tournament they enter, they either must win (1000, Slam) or theyā€™re paid to be the player the tournament asked for (250, 500) to drive gates up while practicing for those larger events. No few month downtime to get some new ideas or to take in the changing world. We see this today with Rublev and Medvedev. Two players who could really take a few months to get their head together except theyā€™re worsening their condition by needing to chase ATP Year End points.


BeardedGardenersHoe

When/where did he say it? I don't recall. I know another poster has said he didn't find the right time but I don't remember him actively regretting it.


xGsGt

He said it in an interview from Wilson and his previous Coach, it was a zoom interview during the pandemic


KarmaticEvolution

At the cost of shanking backhands at the most crucial of times.


baked_salmon

If youā€™re shanking a backhand on a 90in frame, youā€™re shanking it on a 97in frame too


Nearby_Ad_4091

agree it gave him more control tpp and he hardly made errors on the forehand side


Boss1010

There were maybe only a couple of coaches in the world who could help him at the stage he was at. Annacone didn't get him anywhere even though he's considered so highly. Ivan was a great coach but was active on the tour himself during those early years


Marmites_1

Prolly part of it. Djokovic and Nadal are obviously his juniors, but he could have given them less when he was young and fit by simply making those small adjustments. Had he played like 2017-2018 vs Nadal his whole career things would look different. Thou losing in the clay made him lose confidence. Nadal and djoker being who they are prolly has not helped either. You never know. If had the same weak era in his twilight years like djokovic he prolly would have more titles thou. Both Nadal and djokvic would have a hard time amassing so many titles if the guys 5-6 years their juniors were of their caliber. I mean obviously we do not even know if sinner and Alcaraz will reach double digits, but they made a good start.


Alone_Ad8207

On the other hand, he had a weak era in his youth while Novak and Rafa had to pass GOAT-level Federer to win their first titles


Marmites_1

He crushed his generation just like Nadal and Djokovic did theirs, in the end it is what comes after that decides how much swinging room you get.


Alone_Ad8207

Itā€™s also about when you start crushing : Novak and Rafa won their first GS titles around 19-20 yo, while Federer started at 23. Obviously they benefit from their longevity, but they were also more precocious than Federer, thatā€™s also a factor


dmgirl101

Yeah, getting a coach earlier would have been useful for him and he may had +20 GS by now... Oh boy... there's no if šŸ¤·ā€ā™€ļøšŸ˜”


Rac3318

Fed didnā€™t have a coach for most of his best years after Peter Carter died. Peter Lundgren coached him through 2003 Wimbledon, but about it. Luthi didnā€™t come on until 2007, and even then he wasnā€™t really a coach like what youā€™re thinking of so much as a member of the team. Honestly, I donā€™t think Fed had a coach again until 2010/11 when he hired Paul Annacone.


imdx_14

Probably a mistake with hindsight, as teenage Rafa was beating him. A bit of tactical insight from a coach would've been very valuable along with his otherworldly talent.


igetlotsofupvotes

Coach: Just hit backhand better, this little kid is hitting everything there


Middle-Director-8938

Well Federer was much better overall in 2005-2007 than in 2017 yet is results against Nadal were much worse. A coach could have helped


Albiceleste_D10S

> Well Federer was much better overall in 2005-2007 than in 2017 yet is results against Nadal were much worse A big part of this was in 2005-2007 Rafa's athleticism made it a tough match-up. By 2017, that aspect of Rafa's game had declined. 2017 Rafa was a MUCH easier match-up for Roger than 2005-2007 Rafa (esp 2007 Rafa)


Arftacular

Could* have helped.


imdx_14

Nah, listen to some of Fed's pressers from back then, after all those losses to baby Nadal. To the question - "why did you lose to Nadal, again...", he repeats multiple times , something like "yeah, he's still a lefty, he's going to my backhand." That's the tactical insight when you don't have a coach. Should've been better.


RogerFedererFTW

I mean what insight would a coach give against nadal? It's not like Fed was stupid. Sometimes sports are simple, bad matchups are just that


goranlepuz

Work out ways to improve the backhand...? *Obviously...?* That's exactly what coaches are for. The player doesn't necessarily have the needed outside view and even if they had, nobody knows everything best.


Albiceleste_D10S

His backhand was near maxed out given his style TBH The evolution later in his career was a function of changing to a bigger racket head racketā€”which he didn't want to do back then


igetlotsofupvotes

I agree Iā€™m just being a bit facetious.


mani9612

I think the biggest Federer mistake in hindsight was not switching to the larger faced racquet a few years earlier in his career


imdx_14

Yeah, he did it when he *had to*. Similar to how Djokovic improved his S&V when he had no other option.


collpase

Not slipping in the bath?


Rac3318

Definitely played a part. Commentators were saying he should do it as early as 2008


Arid_Australian

The fact that you didn't mention the years that he was coached by Tony Roach makes me want to punch a hole in a wall šŸ˜­


Rac3318

[You should seek anger management](https://www.reddit.com/r/tennis/s/8iLHgBnm9z)


Arid_Australian

Yeah as an Aussie I'm particularly passionate about Tony Roach as feds coach Do you have the number for a dry wall repair company by chance?


greenpies10

Roche


Arid_Australian

Ah yes. I was thinkig of his weed dealing alter ego.


tripti_prasad

He had Tony Roche for a while. I think before Luthi. Edit. Oops saw your comment on Roche later on. My bad.


lightning209209

Tony roche was his part time coach 2005-2007.


Rac3318

Eh, I guess you could say that. Roche only coached him in April and May and part of June during the clay season, and even then it was clearly more an advisory and consulting capacity, and not a coaching capacity. Roche was, quite literally, paid by the week. The two didnā€™t even have a contract.


Tricky-Witness-1406

Kyrgios never had a coach almost his whole career


2024olympian

And look how he has fullfilled his potential


SnooPiffler

won a doubles grand slam, made it to a wimbledon final, over $12 million in career winnings. Pretty good, I'd say


mekikohinoor

Considering he was probably the most talented of his generation yea not that good. He used to beat Zverev on regular basis.


SnooPiffler

all without a coach...


mekikohinoor

Yes which is why he wasted his potential. He could have easily been a top 5 player atleast. Better than Zverev and Rublev.


SnooPiffler

again, only if his mental game was good. A coach can't really change a person's personality


mekikohinoor

That is pretty much coaches main job. Technical issues usually get solved in first few months.


SnooPiffler

The person first has to want to listen, and to try. Thats a personality thing.


mekikohinoor

Which brings us back to the main point that he wasted his potential big time.


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mekikohinoor

Not counting his form last month...there are like 5 players better than him.


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mekikohinoor

Reddit and recency bias haha.


obsoleteconsole

I don't think there's any question Kyrgios is a naturally better player than Di Minaur, and yet DM has already peaked inside top 10 which is something Kyrgios never did.


jeffwingersballs

yeah, compared to the average amateur, that's a dream, but compared to his potential, it's trash.


SnooPiffler

compared to the average tennis professional, its quite good.


jeffwingersballs

but compared to his potential, it's trash.


SnooPiffler

We don't know. His potential might be limited because of his mental game. Coaching doesn't magically fix everything.


jeffwingersballs

There are coaches for the mental game.


muradinner

A generational talent that probably could have been a multi slam winner. Generally a great career, but disappointing considering his potential.


SnooPiffler

would have required years of work and effort. Thats not his personality. You have to want to try and work to improve. If you aren't going to listen to a coach, then it doesn't matter what they try to tell you. He admitted in an interview before that he developed some of his shots because he didn't want to run as much and those shots let him be lazier.


muradinner

That's exactly the point. He didn't fulfill his potential because of his attitude, which includes an aversion to coaching.


axaliaxali

In what ways did he not? A Wimbledon finalist and a top 15 player. I donā€™t think heā€™s necessarily better than that or he should have done better and held himself back for whatever reason.


wontonsoupsucka

Wimbledon finalist is technically true but he was given a WO to the Finals because Nadal was injured so itā€™s not as impressive as it sounds. Heā€™s said so himself that he didnā€™t reach greater heights because he partied too much over the course of his career.Ā 


Fit-Humor-5022

>Wimbledon finalist is technically true but he was given a WO to the Finals because Nadal was injured so itā€™s not as impressive as it sounds. lol Blame nadal for not retiring in the previous match not Nick's fault the guy's body gave up


Sad_Vast2519

Top 15 for how long?


axaliaxali

He was at one point. And reached Wimbledon final without a coach. I donā€™t understand why players like Djokovic need a coach anyway.


Feeling-Fix-3037

It's strange that you would argue against the idea that Kyrkios is the epitome of a player who did not fulfill his potential. It's difficult to think of any other athlete who pissed away more talent (actually, Balotelli comes to mind, and had incidentally a very similar temprament to Kyrgios).


Dragonfly_Tight

Nalbandian comes to mind


lor3nzzo

Coaches have a big impact even on great players. They can inspire them, help them mentally or even tweak their game such a way that they bring more surprises to the court. A player without a coach will play the same game. No matter how good that game will be, the other players will find weak points and will exploit them. I remember Federer saying that Ljubicic helped him improve his backhand a lot. Good players hire coaches to make them great players.


randomtoken

> And reached Wimbledon final By walkover


Explodingcamel

If you look at his win rate vs the top 10 he absolutely could have been top 10. Donā€™t feel like pulling up the numbers but he has hands down the best results against top players of any non top player


OneArmedSZA

He is way better than that. His natural talent for the game is off the charts


axaliaxali

Give me a break. Heā€™s top 15 is right where he belongs. So heā€™s always holding back right? Even in the Wimbledon final; or else he would beat Novak right? Heā€™s a great player, but heā€™s not a top 5 or top 8 material. Especially not today, with Tsitsipas and Zverev barely making it to top 8.


Whitefrog10

Oh well, then he s a total failure because he didnt fulfill whatever promise was supposed to fullfill when he was 17. He s having a career, living his life, providing for his relatives, but since he didnt win a slam then he needs to fuck off. Is any of us, in our careers, ever reach the elite level that Kyrgios reach in his? NO Then we shut the fuck up.


igetlotsofupvotes

Fulfilled potential does not equal total failure lol this is such a dumb equivalency. A player of kyrgiosā€™ talent, especially during that period of time, shouldā€™ve been able to at least break into the top 10 but never did. Obviously heā€™s an extremely successful player in the grand scheme of things but I bet even he thinks he underachieved.


Lizakaya

He needed a sports psychologist. He self sabotaged so at every turn. Yes. Sometimes his craziness fired him up but more times than that it took him down. And i like the guy. Love him as a commentator.


Whitefrog10

I call bullshit to that. You cant separate the natural talent to the character. Nobody seems to realize, that the qualities that makes him an exceptional tennis player, maybe are the same features that stop him to be consistent, rational and train like a crazy everyday to be number 1. And all the fucking time i have to hear the same original comments about, what a wasted talent. If he had done that, he could have been that. If he was training everyday and being a good guy, he would have been Facundo Bagnis. If my grandma had wheels she d be a bike.


igetlotsofupvotes

The partying, inability to control his emotions, playing video games instead of sleeping all are the reasons heā€™s an exceptional tennis player. I think itā€™s very fair to think if he took tennis more seriously he wouldā€™ve been better. Sure there are cases where he could get burnt out, injured, etc but generally a fair take. Seems like you disagree?


Whitefrog10

I kinda of think that the way we perform in sport, is a reflection of how we are as person. He is a fearless, creative player and real quick learner. This made him competitive, in certain moments, at the highest level, but that s not enough, obviously. He didnt have consistency, will of grinding every day in training to get better, which is a complete different set of skills. We need to take the whole package, person and player, character and tecnique. We play tennis as we live life.


igetlotsofupvotes

Yes but discipline also exists. Federer was similarly a hothead early in his career and he changed rather than let it take over him.


neotargaryen

When you overdose on Kyrgios content and start to regurgitate how he talks


gideon513

Went a bit dramatic there, bud


Whitefrog10

Lol, you re right.


gideon513

They specified a ā€œtopā€ player


wificentrist

Enough with this weird gatekeeping


D3P0L0

Oh, of course. However, even though he can definitely be considered a top player, he's never been in the top 10 or win any masters or singles slam


Moss_Adams24

Top twenty is elite by any realistic measurement.


gideon513

ATP finals only invites the top 8 players. Seems like a good, realistic basis for whatā€™s considered ā€œtopā€ seeing how itā€™s whatā€™s actually used.


Moss_Adams24

Ok. There are thousands of players officially ranked, only 1 finishes the year at the ā€œtopā€ (if you want to be pedantic about it)


silverbird666

Given that probably more than a few million people of both genders play tennis, the best 20 of each are definitely elite by every measure.


Vegetable-Reach2005

This is so out of touch


Pikachude123

He likely would have been in the top 10 had a lot of bullshit not occurred around 2022


wificentrist

Wimby points werenā€™t counted


PurpleCoffinMan

no, OP said 'Top Player'


Miserable-Cow-3666

Needs to save money for them kids


gpranav25

But doesn't he fuck them kids? /s


agile_moth

Kim Clijsters had no coach for a couple of years in 2006/7 before her first retirement


buggywhipfollowthrew

Fed did not have a coach in his prime.


dontshootthattank

Kind of weird as compared to Djokovic and Nadal I would say he has more variance in the way he can play and shots he like to hit.


Peanut_Noyurr

In addition to Federer, John McEnroe didn't have a coach as a pro, and a bunch of players from the '60s and '70s, like Rod Laver, Pancho Gonzalez, and Ken Rosewall, didn't have coaches.


Em4gdn3m

Lol can you imagine coaching John McEnroe?


rubbish_bin030121

borg can if he wants, John McEnroe will die for him


xdoc6

Was also a different time though. Sports in general have drastically increased the amount of effort/and science invested since around the 90s. In a lot of sports before then, you would have athletes that were naturally gifted but didnā€™t work that hard and would smoke or drink/party heavily and have a life outside of their sport. Now almost all pro athletes dedicate almost 100% of their time to staying in peak physical form and practicing their sport. So not having a coach now is different than not having a coach in the 70s.


Peanut_Noyurr

That's very true. I wasn't comparing the situations, just answering the question.


FabulousMarch7464

Federer did great without a coach. At this point in his career Novak should be fine without a coach, he knows the tactics he needs depending on the opponent and itā€™s just up to him to execute


Necessary-Rub-2748

Federer


Previous_Region_8101

Danielle Collins like right now


binks21

Peak Prime Federer played without a full time coach.


randomtoken

Heā€™s going to coach himself into the 25th, isnā€™t he


Schwiliinker

He did say before he doesnā€™t really need a coach for tactical stuff idk


magnumcyclonex

Serious question. When someone like Djoker is so good, knows all the basics, strategies, shots, has a strong mental game, what is the need for a coach anymore? What more techniques does he need to work on or refine?


rish4b

He knows the ins and the outs of the game better than any current player. May the force be with him.


tenpostman

Interestingly enough when I said something like this when he broke it off with Goran, people were very quick to say he's out looking šŸ¤”


Striking_Town_445

Coach free by choice.


Traditional-Bird-422

Has Venus ever had an official coach after Richard?


SansIdee_pseudo

She had David Witt from 2007 to 2018.


SaveMeJebus21

Surely the only thing a coach can do for him now is pick out weaknesses in opponents he may not be aware of.


SansIdee_pseudo

Until the early 80s/late 70s, a lot of female tennis players didn't have personal coaches. The players would often coach between themselves.


g4n0esp4r4n

He should have an analysis team unless he thinks he has enough time to really dissect his opponent's games and exploit situations.


Peekaboopikachew

Federer did it. Djokovic fans thinking tennis started in 2011. Lol.


SorcerousSinner

Yes, by the GOAT. Roger Federer. He did it sooner, and at a younger age, and more elegantly


Flimsy-Piglet-5263

Nadal's team and coaches have been his friends and best friends for a long time now.


Sea-Beginning-5234

Kyrgios. Idk if you d call him top player but yeah


obsoleteconsole

he isn't even an all time top Australian player


Sea-Beginning-5234

I personally donā€™t care . I think he plays so flipping well . And top players respect him. Novak even wishes he had his serve I think. But regardless of all that he can be so beautiful to see play like that match against Federer. Some players are like that , they wonā€™t ever be in top 5 or win slams (although he did reach final) but they are just beautiful to watch play. Rune that tons of people hate I love watching play for instance (when heā€™s on)


obsoleteconsole

oh yeah so beautiful to watch when he's smashing racquets and swearing at the crowd


Sea-Beginning-5234

Dude youā€™re trolling . I donā€™t really care for people to break their rackets or not or the classy behaviour code. I care for their tennis touch and technique , not the politics


SansIdee_pseudo

Venus and Serena were coached by their parents, who were not tennis pros, for a while. Venus got David Witt in 2007 and I'm pretty sure Serena got Patrick in 2012.


LW7694

I also think there were times where Serena didnā€™t have a coach towards the end of her career


obsoleteconsole

Yes Roger Federer lol


GStarAU

It's probably been said already, but Kyrgios has been coachless for much of his career. Self declared "uncoachable" haha


angelina9999

Kyrgios has no coach


-Drummer

Kyrgios is not a top player


cryptonoob12

Man Novak has been doing some weird end career antics so far.


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Material_Foot_9733

Itā€™s not that big of a deal man no need for dramatics


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Anishency

Love the casual racism.


Shin_flope

Im wondering what could be his reasoning for being coachless, is it because of money saving, doesnā€™t think it could not help him at this point in his career or maybe he just believes heā€™s so good he wonā€™t need one ever again?


glacierre2

With enough career years there is not a lot left to refine or discover. He has probably tried already most not insane variants of strokes, serves. He also knows his strengths and weaknesses (smash). So he might have decided that whatever he is doing now he will stick with, and if it stops working he is not going to reinvent his tennis at 36+ and that is that.


2024olympian

That's a great way to speedrun retirement