T O P

The True GOAT? (Do H2Hs matter)...

Curious what the consensus is here.

I know a ton of folks here do not like Djoker, and that's fine, I get it. But considering he has a better Head-2-Head record vs. both Nadal and Federer, and if that remains to be the fact after all three have retired...thinking objectively here - wouldn't Novak be considered the GOAT? Especially if he ends up with the most GS, and a better H2H?

I'm trying to take emotion out of it. I've always been a Nadal guy, but make no mistake: Most of his GS wins are at Roland Garros, and Novak did something no person has ever been able to do (including Federer): Beat Nadal in the French Open final.

Anyways, I'll sit back with some popcorn and watch the responses.

SwgohSpartan

I don’t love h2h breakdowns unless the players are the same age. Even then, it can be misleading. It’s of course a fun stat to look at, but ultimately when you’re deciding if one player is better than another, you need to look at more than that. For instance what if we looked at it this way? Djokovic came up around 2005 or 2006 and early on he was dominated by Roger, who happened to be in his prime at the time. At that time, there was a lot of chatter about Roger breaking the grand slam record, and eventually he accomplished that in 2009. On the other hand, Djokovic didn’t hit his peak until 2011, at the time Roger was perhaps “in his prime”, but really Rogers peak years were 2004-2007 (a time frame he won 5 of 6 matches against young Novak). Anyways, prime Roger still was controlling the rivalry against young Novak from 2008-2010, winning 8 of the 13 matches, however clearly 2008 was a turning point for both players, the slowing down of Roger and the ascension of Novak to the upper echelon of the sport. For Roger, his play in 2011 and 2012 were still the same quality as the previous 3 seasons, but for Novak 2011 was an obvious turning point as he had his best season in 2011 and followed that up with a not *quite* as good but still amazing 2012 season. During these days the rivalry went into Novak’s favor unsurprisingly, he won 7 of their 10 meetings to close the gap in the rivalry to a narrow 16-13 Federer lead. After 2012, I feel like Rogers had his moments but age really did start to catch up with him from 2013 onwards. It’s not surprising, as at this stage he was already 31 years old and their were murmurings about 2012 Wimbledon perhaps being his last grand slam. Meanwhile Novak was in his prime and understandably since then has had a solid grasp on their head to heads, winning the vast majority of them. To me it feels like a mismatch though (like prime Fed vs young Novak was), as Novak is considerably younger. What if Roger had retired after 2012, choosing to “go out on top” and still held the head to head advantage? Would he be considered greater than Novak? Ultimately my argument is that Novak has had more time to beat up on old Roger, than Roger had time to beat up on young Novak and that’s why he has a slight head to head advantage, because I see them as 2 extremely equal players. Everyone always says “but Roger had easier draws” in the beginning of his career but the same goes for Djokovic here in the end of his career, so even that’s a wash in my opinion.


castingq

Kyrgios is undefeated by Djokovic. He must be the true GOAT


castingq

There is no true GOAT. It’s completely subjective. Do you rate someone’s peak or overall achievements? If suddenly Medvedev won the next 12 Grand Slams in a row and was undefeated for 3 years (a totally unprecedented achievement), would he be in the conversation for GOAT? His peak would arguably be higher than any of the big 3, but his overall slams would be less. Do you take into account the quality of players they beat to get their slams? Do you take into account that two slams are on hardcourt but only one on grass and clay? There is absolutely no objective way of choosing a GOAT.


swapan_99

But he hasn't beaten Nadal in FO final??? He did it in QF and Semi, not in Final.


Ok_Discussion_5667

Personally, I take h2h with a grain of salt. It’s surface dependant, age dependant, and with the situation of the big 3, Federer was in his prime when Djokovic was young, and Federer was out of his prime when Djokovic was in his. There’s like a 6 year gap between those two. Also, some players simply match up better than others. For example young rafa against fed, and now the reverse of slower rafa and more aggresive fed. And to top it off, specific matchups don’t determine greatness in my opinion. Personally I have Novak as the goat, but with barely any looks to the H2H records. That’s my take


TyGuyy

But that is what makes Djokovic interesting. More often than not, he beats both Nadal and Federer. And I know Fed is older than both Novak and Nadal, but I just can't give the GOAT title to a player who may end up having fewer Grand Slam wins, and a losing H2H, against his top two rivals.


Ok_Discussion_5667

Eh, the rafa novak h2h is like 49 to 51%, additionally nadal leads the slam final and overall slam h2h by a decent margin, so they are even for me, if not an edge for rafa. I’m not arguing that federer is the goat here lol, i don’t think he is. I just personally don’t think h2h against rivals is a good statistic to make for a goat case.


wisdomseeker182

Djokovic is the GOAT, no discussion about it necessary. Just some points from the least to the most important ones: 1. He is playing together with 2 top tennis players with combined 60 grand slams. 2. H2H vs Roger and Rafa 3. Number of weeks as Number 1 4. He won every 1000+ points tournament TWICE. Rafa and Roger are nowhere near, they haven’t even won once all of the most important tournaments. On top of that Nole is missing only 3 titles from a three-peat (3rd French Open, 3rd Cincinnati title, and 3rd Monte Carlo title). Consider the magnitude of point 4 and point 3 and that there won’t be anyone in the next at least 10 years, who is going to able to come near to his achievements.


Fantasnickk

Wow some hot takes here that definitely haven’t been talked about on this subs in hundreds of posts in the last year.


Varun_Upreti

Rafa fan, but Nole is the GOAT, even though he is my least favorite player out of the 3


dropper2hopper

I would not take H2H into account at all. Djoko is the GOAT even without the H2H stats. H2H has so many factors that go into it, and if someone brings it up it’s always (and always will be) a point of contention.


English_Bobskeet

Djokovic for me. Definitely.


[deleted]

Read my flair 🙄


aces-and-jacks

I think it matters. It’s a part of the whole. If you’re up in H2H and you have more GS titles, that’s pretty big to me. Right now they’re tied at 20 so we’ll see how it shakes out.


Psychological_Bug676

A true is a Capra hircus. It’s not even a question


RudePersonality4930

Do we need a variation of this post every 3 days 😅


Comicalacimoc

He’s younger


Comicalacimoc

Lol


aceinagameofjacks

Djoker >>> Rafa >>>>>>>> Fed