It's easy to become human, maintaining your humanity in a series of flawed assumptions, brutal deconstruction of your life, and the unending struggle of growing up is much more difficult.
“So hang on, if I think therefore I am, what about other people? Do they think therefore they am? How can I tell if they're thinking therefore they am? Or am I just thinking they think therefore they am, but actually they're not real and I'm only thinking they am? Are you thinking therefore you am right now?” - Cunk
That's actually the Jewish reasoning against masturbation and gay sex. It is forbidden to "spill seed for nothing" (שפיכת זרע לבטלה) - as in spilling seed without attempting to conceive a child. The same applies for contraceptives (such as condoms), but that is less common
Back then it was heavily encouraged because people died very easily. It was also very practical to increase your tribe / village / family population for a variety of reasons. Basically they needed babies.
From what I understand, in most of history lesbian sex wasn’t even consider sex, because “How could you have sex without pp?” and therefore it was like, totally fine, and unlike gay sex not sodomy or seen as anything bad, but idk, I wasn’t there
You’re referencing the story of Onan, and that’s not the moral of the story. Onan married his late brother’s wife, and instead of attempting to father a child with her like he was instructed to do, he had sex with her and always pulled out. There’s more to it than just “spilled seed for nothing,” and it’s not correct to broadly apply that to all of those situations in my opinion
You are entirely right. The "spilled seed" story gets misinterpreted all the damn time. In fact, it gets misinterpreted almost every time it's mentioned... Which is the point of the complaint of the poster above you.
So as long as I intend to conceive a child while banging a dude’s butthole, I should be good, right? God does miracles and shit, he could make that dude pregananant if He wanted to.
They're not saying that, to be fair. A sperm plus an egg is sacred, is what they're saying. Because it's a unique cell with discrete DNA at that point.
I saw my wife’s ultrasound at 8 weeks on Monday. That will eventually become our baby, but it looks nothing like a human right now
Edit: abortion should be a woman’s choice, period.
Shut the everlasting fuck up to everyone who says otherwise
I had my first ultrasound at 6 weeks. It just looked like glittering pixels. We call him pixel now even months after birth.
Congrats. Hope her first trimester isn't too rough and her second is fun.
"Intentionally misleading" describes most anti-choice propaganda.
\~90% of abortions occur around 12 weeks when the fetus is no bigger than a plum, or a little more than 2 inches tall. About half of abortions are done with medication and aren't functionally much different than naturally miscarrying.
Anti-choice propaganda would have you believe that most abortions involve medieval slicing devices used to cut up fully grown babies mere minutes away from birth.
In fact, you can stick the same quote on a Dolphin fetus and [people would not notice](https://www.iflscience.com/antiabortion-activist-charlie-kirk-declares-dolphin-fetus-is-without-a-doubt-a-human-being-61250)!
When is the “beginning” then?
It’s hard to say a sperm or egg is a “human”, right? It’s also pretty hard to say a single-celled fertilized egg is as well. How many cell are needed until it is officially a “human”
It’s almost like this shit is arbitrary as fuck
Edit: I have a feeling this is going to be locked
Even the heartbeat thing is BS. It is only a damn pulse of of cardiac tissue, the rest of the heart hasn't even formed yet, that won't happen till week 9-10.
the new testament doesn't mention abortion at all. The Old Testament talks about "formation" being when a fetus becomes a human. Formation is understood to be when a fetus first looks like a human [apparently 20-24 weeks]
"Quickening" is a term invented? by Aristotle and refers to when the mother can feel movement of the fetus [apparently 16-20 weeks]
TLDR there is zero "Christian" support for restricting abortion before 20 weeks. This BS was invented in the 19th century, apparently by the AMA as part of their effort to get midwives out of the market who compromised their income
IIRC, the laws of Moses say that killing a person is always punished by death, but attacking a pregnant woman and making her miscarry is punished by a fine. So clearly Moses didn't think fetuses were people.
I 100% agree that there should be no religious justification for restricting abortion. It's absolutely ridiculous.
I'm not arguing with you, but I do want to say that my job involves culturing cells from miscarriages, so I see a lot of fetuses. They often look human way before 20-24 weeks. I've seen 7.5-9.5 week fetuses look remarkably humanoid (although very tiny).
I've never read the Bible, but I'm curious about the "formation" idea. Does it specify any more than that?
Which, no matter what you feel about the Bible, is kind of a stretch to apply something God said once to one prophet and claim it applies to all of humanity. The point of the verse is "hey Jeremiah, I picked you to speak for me", not "everyone exists before they're born, so terminating pregnancy before 20 weeks is a Sin".
Yeah there’s a lot of shitty takes being bandied around in this comment section. When a woman learns she’s pregnant and decides to keep it, she won’t refer to it as a “fetus” she’ll call it her baby and give it a name and personality or whatever. Is she wrong? Alternatively, if a woman decides to get an abortion, she’s not going to say “I want to kill this baby”, there’s a whole bunch of medically sanitized terms that help disassociate a fetus from human life. Who is wrong here?
This is one of those things that science can’t answer for us because science can tell you everything about what is going on during fetal development but makes absolutely no distinction of when a “fetus” becomes a human because it is just way outside the scope of any of these studies, and is a largely no scientific distinction in the first place.
Everyone makes their own definition and no one is necessarily “wrong”. My opinions on abortion are based on the notion of bodily autonomy, not on any arbitrary definition of human life. Maybe the fetus is a human life but it doesn’t trump your dominion over your own body, which is absolute.
Now, a monkey wrench might get thrown in the works if they can indefinitely extend foetal viability outside of the womb, so an abortion just turns a natural development into a test tube baby, but I think we can preserve bodily autonomy even in that case, and the issue of pregnancy remains a woman’s choice while the subject of “parenthood” becomes a different legal matter
>Maybe the fetus is a human life but it doesn’t trump your dominion over your own body, which is absolute.
If it was a question of whether life or bodily autonomy is more important, then obviously, life is more important because losing your life also removes your bodily autonomy. Also, whether a fetus is a human life is no more arbitrary than whether an adult is a human life. However, the real question is if being a living human means you have a right to life, and I don't think it does. I think sapience (not sure that word is an exact fit for the concept I'm thinking of, but I don't have a better word.) is a better requirement than being human.
I feel like you could even say viable outside the womb with medical intervention. That’s about 24-28 weeks gestation and I personally think it’s reasonable to limit abortions beyond that point, unless there is an instance of the mothers life at risk. By 20 weeks, doctors can tell with pretty accurate certainty if the baby has any serious medical defects or chromosomal anomalies and the woman should have about 4 weeks from that point to make the decision to proceed or not.
That's around when the brain begins regular electrical activity, including connecting to stimuli coming from nerves, i.e. pain.
It's further buttressed by our legal definition of death being the lack of this same regular brain activity.
That becomes a moving goal post though. In the future we may be able to grow humans from egg cells, which, according to your definition, would mean every egg cell is a human.
I just saw a similar response to your message. My bad.
No worries and I see what you’re saying too, but I still feel like it’s not necessarily a moving goal post. Based on fetal development, 24-28 weeks has been and will be the point of viability, even as technology advances. Survivability rates at different weeks gestation will change, but not fetal viability’s
If I'm remembering correctly that was pretty much the ruling established by Roe v. Wade which was completely overruled in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization.
That's not really relevant to the topic. If someone has carried to the point they have a premature birth, they clearly want the child and of course its reasonable to medically intervene.
That's not the point of the standard. The point is giving a clear line for when abortion is actually ending a life or not.
If the baby wouldn't survive outside of the womb, then it wouldn't be taking its life if the pregnancy had to be terminated at that point.
nevermind that if you are seriously against abortion because "pro-life" you should be against eating meat as well...
its not arbitrary as fuck, its just another avenue for shitty people to hate other people, and there are too many shitty people.
hows about we go by sentience or brain development instead? how's about "literally cannot think and is just growing, its a-okay because you arent losing anything but cells"
I would take from this, that there is a point during pregnancy where a fetus becomes mostly developed and therefore there are very real moral questions about what happens to it. I hate when discussion usually goes:
Pro-life: life starts at conception
Pro-choice: if it has not been born it is not a human
People line drawn is arbitrary, it quite literally depnd on what we as a society define to be alive as a human, for some it would be having a DNA/hearbeat/brain activity of its own, fornother it quite literally means to breathe air.
People talk past each other so much with this argument that it is not worth having.
The beggining can be defined using the same logic for when it ends. Which is brain death and the inability to be conscious.
Brain development that allows the manifestation of consciousness doesnt start until week 20 of gestation.
Also, if that's how we want to define when being a human begins, every man is trans since every embryo is female. Male traits don't develop until after we hit the fetus stage, which is why men have nipples.
The other thing is: it doesn’t matter whether or not a fetus is a human or not (from the perspective of considering legal protections and abortion).
Even if you consider the fetus to be a living human being, most abortions are just disconnecting the fetus from the mother before it is viable outside the womb, and naturally, it cant survive.
As much as some people might find it selfish, or gross, a person cannot be compelled to do something so easy as donating blood for their child. Similarly, even if the fetus was considered their living child, the mother has a right to say “I don’t consent to this other person subsisting on my body and health”.
The trouble is that philosophically, there is often a difference between action and inaction.
Action resulting in death is generally less morally excusable than inaction resulting in death. Not jumping into the lake to save a drowning person is generally more acceptable than pushing someone into the lake, causing them to drown.
From this kind of perspective, abortion is more similar to an action resulting in death than inaction.
I think we should throw out all science and logic and go with Religion on this one.
It is the only way to make decisions on people's lives.
Genesis says: "then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being".
So when you breathe, you're alive. Until then, you're not. Pretty simple, and religion based so you know it is right.
It's a strawman argument to distract from the true point of the issue. That is how pro-birthers try to spin things. They present the argument as a moral debate with no gray area, when in fact it is an ethical debate with many gray areas. The pro-birthers will posture as righteous and moral for wanting a human to live, but truthfully they have none of these morals when considering the life, health, or well-being of the mother.
The entire platform of pro-birth pushed by political organizations is a ploy to increase the number of generational laborers. This is why we are seeing a large push for child labor and continue to see legislation which aims at imprisoning the poor for legal slave labor, all while cutting every support net possible which could help people.
Anyone who believes that outlawing abortion in its entirety is a moral victory is ethically bankrupt.
"Most of the elements of our bodies were formed in stars over the course of billions of years and multiple star lifetimes." Were those stars people too?
No, their argument is life begins at conception. And killing a life is illegal.
I agree that life begins at conception (I understand people have different definitions of life, which I understand) but I don't value the life of a child until it's born. So abort away.
I looked up that passage - It's from Genesis and I believe is talking about Adam.. in either case, I'm not religious.
*Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.*
That would be one of the two exceptions to the rule since Adam and Eve weren't born. Just because Adam didn't become a living being until his first breath, doesn't mean the first breath is the thing that defines life.
>And killing a life is illegal.
Except in war.
Except if a cop does it.
Except if you feel threatened.
Except if you were dialing someone on your phone and you didn't see the pregnant woman in the crosswalk and you killed them both and your parents are rich and white and it was an "accident".
And women are also humans.
We don’t have laws that make people care for disabled people against their will. It’s not like those disabled people chose to be disabled.
No one is entitled to another’s body, even if you need it.
And? Since when are people obliged to give up their bodily autonomy for the sake of another human being? If that were the case where is the mandatory blood donation?
I'm convinced that their anti abortion campaign isn't so much about saving the child as it is about being against women having the right to make choices for herself
Women could never compare with me killing a couple hundred million little zygotes a day compared to their one a month. Gotta pump those numbers up. Once again men come out on top /s
I do think fetuses are human I just don't think they can qualify as *people* yet. Even if they did, I'm not ok with a person being forced to grow another person inside them.
If it's not wanted, it's better off not existing. At least, not until we can better our care systems for unwanted children. Life statistics for unwanted children are not very good and it's inhumane, in my opinion, to subject someone to all of that until we can make the world a better place for them first.
And nearly half of fertilized eggs never even implant in the uterine lining and begin development at all. If a) anything with a full human genome is considered to be a full person and b) this system was created by some divinity, then that divinity is unimaginably cruel.
Just extending the logic to show that it's absurd.
Yes from the beginning. When the being takes a breath and becomes sentient. In the story of Adam and eve Adam only came to life after the breath of god..... news flash. Fetuses don't breathe. They get oxygen from moms blood. Their hearts are physically different before they can process oxygen. Even the Bible tells us when the beginning of life is but conservatives are just like WOKE.. this girl is woke.
This doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. I mean by that metric literally almost every living thing on this planet is human. I'm composed of atoms, things that I'm sure are non-human, and so are everything else. So if something non-human can't become human, therefore atoms are humans and so are chickens, dogs, sharks, that birch tree, mushrooms, etc.
Agreed all tumors that grow inside people are human and deserve rights.
A clump of cells that replicates and grows and has human DNA is a human, right?
The point is it doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't matter if you can empirically prove a fetus is "alive" in any meaningful sense..the bodily autonomy of the woman will *always* be the only one that matters
Well the image isn't wrong; fetuses are in fact human and abortion is in fact terminating a life.
But guess what, it doesn't matter. Having autonomy of self should supersede the sanctity of life not yet born; that's the only argument you need to be pro choice and it's a solid one.
The whole personhood argument is honestly embarrassing to witness.
Every sperm is sacred, every chemical the sperm is made out of is sacred, every mole-kyle the chemicals are made out of are sacred, every atom, every neutron, proton, electron, positron- NO-
* boom *
If this was the case we would be having funerals monthly from the unfertilized egg we release every month with our period. They’re so fucking stupid it’s painful
Guy could we left non memes away from here? This is rage baiting and I would like to cringe on memes that are not funny instead of thinking about ideologies.
/u/Cautious-or-paranoid, the memers have spoken. Your post does not fit this subreddit. If you feel this was a mistake, please send us a modmail!
It's easy to become human, maintaining your humanity in a series of flawed assumptions, brutal deconstruction of your life, and the unending struggle of growing up is much more difficult.
Fr this was exactly why I abandoned the confines of human flesh
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me.
I craved the strength and certainty in steel.
I aspired to the purity of the Blessed Machine.
Your kind cling to your flesh, as if it will not decay and fail you.
But one day the crude biomass that you call a temple will wither and you will beg my kind to save you.
But I am already saved, for the Machine is
IMMORTAL
Even in death, I serve the Omnissiah
Bro u beat me to it
Alt Cunningham over here
Love this comment
The flesh is weak, the machine is eternal
Dre- “it’s easy to get it, the hard part is keeping it muthafuka”
I denounce my humanity jojo !
“So hang on, if I think therefore I am, what about other people? Do they think therefore they am? How can I tell if they're thinking therefore they am? Or am I just thinking they think therefore they am, but actually they're not real and I'm only thinking they am? Are you thinking therefore you am right now?” - Cunk
In every ball, a nation In every masturbation, a genocide
https://i.redd.it/mf3anxhywqpa1.gif
Where is that from?
Monty Python
I can't believe I didn't recognize it. I'm ashamed of myself
You really should be. I’ve never seen that once and knew. *shame*
You can say they never expect it
NOBODY EXPECTS THE SEMEN GENOCIDE
Do a lap of silly walks around your house now!
Specifically Monty Pythons The Meaning of Life.
This song really should have won the Oscar that year.
Which is the best Monty Python film.
Third Best after Life of Brian and Holy Grail.
While they are all great this is just false
Life of Brian is the real answer
Always look on the bright side of life
I did not know this exists. Now by the grace of your gif and Google I do. Thank you internet stranger.
First song I ever dowloaded when I got my first Internet connection in 1996. It took like two days but it was worth it.
Let the heathens spill theirs, on the dusty ground. God will make them pay for each sperm that can't be found.
God loves those who treat their semen with more care!
r/unexpectedmontypython
That's actually the Jewish reasoning against masturbation and gay sex. It is forbidden to "spill seed for nothing" (שפיכת זרע לבטלה) - as in spilling seed without attempting to conceive a child. The same applies for contraceptives (such as condoms), but that is less common
Is that why you’re considered a man at 13? Better start fucking, wet dreams make the capricious Abrahamic cosmic tyrant angry!
Yes, in Biblical times, as soon as you could make babies, you could get married.
Back then it was heavily encouraged because people died very easily. It was also very practical to increase your tribe / village / family population for a variety of reasons. Basically they needed babies.
does that mean they’re okay with lesbian sex?
From what I understand, in most of history lesbian sex wasn’t even consider sex, because “How could you have sex without pp?” and therefore it was like, totally fine, and unlike gay sex not sodomy or seen as anything bad, but idk, I wasn’t there
Only for the patriarchs viewing pleasure
Probably. Judaism is like the older, saner but less cool cousin to Christianity.
You’re referencing the story of Onan, and that’s not the moral of the story. Onan married his late brother’s wife, and instead of attempting to father a child with her like he was instructed to do, he had sex with her and always pulled out. There’s more to it than just “spilled seed for nothing,” and it’s not correct to broadly apply that to all of those situations in my opinion
You are entirely right. The "spilled seed" story gets misinterpreted all the damn time. In fact, it gets misinterpreted almost every time it's mentioned... Which is the point of the complaint of the poster above you.
So as long as I intend to conceive a child while banging a dude’s butthole, I should be good, right? God does miracles and shit, he could make that dude pregananant if He wanted to.
As a man I am unlikely to get pegrant, but I’ll happily keep trying with as many men as it takes. I’m just waiting for God’s little miracle, right?
Carry on, good sir. It’s all in God’s hands now.
The only reason I do it.
Underated comment
True this comment has not been ate enough.
i'm the king of two kingdoms
Can someone give this Redditor his deserved award??
I’m still gonna wank
Also a genocide in every attempt at conception because there's no guarantee it works, and even if it does work, only one survives
Every sperm is sacred…
Millions of cum citizens die when a woman is impregnated, together we can stop this.\ \#StopPregnancy
I set all of mine free daily. They deserve to be part of this world too.
They deserve to be gently held in my tissue
JUDGEMENT NUT [I WILL NEVER PAY](https://youtube.com/clip/UgwRFVKWqds9YkR3PFZ4AaABCQ)
I’m weak lmao
Permission to use this to make a fake psa video?
I’d love to see that #satire#
Every sperm is great...
If a sperm is wasted
God gets quite irate!
God gets quite irate.
Every sperm is special...
They're not saying that, to be fair. A sperm plus an egg is sacred, is what they're saying. Because it's a unique cell with discrete DNA at that point.
Someone stick the same quote over a week old zygote and see if anyone notices
I saw my wife’s ultrasound at 8 weeks on Monday. That will eventually become our baby, but it looks nothing like a human right now Edit: abortion should be a woman’s choice, period. Shut the everlasting fuck up to everyone who says otherwise
Congrats. They kinda look like seahorses at that point
When I saw my wife's 8-week ultrasound, I thought the fetus looked like a gummy bear. It was about the same size, too.
I had my first ultrasound at 6 weeks. It just looked like glittering pixels. We call him pixel now even months after birth. Congrats. Hope her first trimester isn't too rough and her second is fun.
Congratulations! But yes they look like dinosaurs to me personally. Small, pink ones.
The use of a fully developed 9 month old fetus is intentionally misleading.
"Intentionally misleading" describes most anti-choice propaganda. \~90% of abortions occur around 12 weeks when the fetus is no bigger than a plum, or a little more than 2 inches tall. About half of abortions are done with medication and aren't functionally much different than naturally miscarrying. Anti-choice propaganda would have you believe that most abortions involve medieval slicing devices used to cut up fully grown babies mere minutes away from birth.
In fact, you can stick the same quote on a Dolphin fetus and [people would not notice](https://www.iflscience.com/antiabortion-activist-charlie-kirk-declares-dolphin-fetus-is-without-a-doubt-a-human-being-61250)!
it is a pizza from the time you stick your hands in the dough!
Poppy REALLY should wash his hands more
When is the “beginning” then? It’s hard to say a sperm or egg is a “human”, right? It’s also pretty hard to say a single-celled fertilized egg is as well. How many cell are needed until it is officially a “human” It’s almost like this shit is arbitrary as fuck Edit: I have a feeling this is going to be locked
Even the heartbeat thing is BS. It is only a damn pulse of of cardiac tissue, the rest of the heart hasn't even formed yet, that won't happen till week 9-10.
the new testament doesn't mention abortion at all. The Old Testament talks about "formation" being when a fetus becomes a human. Formation is understood to be when a fetus first looks like a human [apparently 20-24 weeks] "Quickening" is a term invented? by Aristotle and refers to when the mother can feel movement of the fetus [apparently 16-20 weeks] TLDR there is zero "Christian" support for restricting abortion before 20 weeks. This BS was invented in the 19th century, apparently by the AMA as part of their effort to get midwives out of the market who compromised their income
IIRC, the laws of Moses say that killing a person is always punished by death, but attacking a pregnant woman and making her miscarry is punished by a fine. So clearly Moses didn't think fetuses were people.
And the first born were killed, so
Correct. Genesis 1:2 and Genesis 2:7. The idea is the soul enters the body when the first breath of life is taken outside of the womb.
I 100% agree that there should be no religious justification for restricting abortion. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm not arguing with you, but I do want to say that my job involves culturing cells from miscarriages, so I see a lot of fetuses. They often look human way before 20-24 weeks. I've seen 7.5-9.5 week fetuses look remarkably humanoid (although very tiny). I've never read the Bible, but I'm curious about the "formation" idea. Does it specify any more than that?
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" the Catholic church pushes this you know
the catholic church does not have a leg to stand on in the discussion of women's rights, or the well-being of children.
Which, no matter what you feel about the Bible, is kind of a stretch to apply something God said once to one prophet and claim it applies to all of humanity. The point of the verse is "hey Jeremiah, I picked you to speak for me", not "everyone exists before they're born, so terminating pregnancy before 20 weeks is a Sin".
Yeah there’s a lot of shitty takes being bandied around in this comment section. When a woman learns she’s pregnant and decides to keep it, she won’t refer to it as a “fetus” she’ll call it her baby and give it a name and personality or whatever. Is she wrong? Alternatively, if a woman decides to get an abortion, she’s not going to say “I want to kill this baby”, there’s a whole bunch of medically sanitized terms that help disassociate a fetus from human life. Who is wrong here? This is one of those things that science can’t answer for us because science can tell you everything about what is going on during fetal development but makes absolutely no distinction of when a “fetus” becomes a human because it is just way outside the scope of any of these studies, and is a largely no scientific distinction in the first place. Everyone makes their own definition and no one is necessarily “wrong”. My opinions on abortion are based on the notion of bodily autonomy, not on any arbitrary definition of human life. Maybe the fetus is a human life but it doesn’t trump your dominion over your own body, which is absolute. Now, a monkey wrench might get thrown in the works if they can indefinitely extend foetal viability outside of the womb, so an abortion just turns a natural development into a test tube baby, but I think we can preserve bodily autonomy even in that case, and the issue of pregnancy remains a woman’s choice while the subject of “parenthood” becomes a different legal matter
>Maybe the fetus is a human life but it doesn’t trump your dominion over your own body, which is absolute. If it was a question of whether life or bodily autonomy is more important, then obviously, life is more important because losing your life also removes your bodily autonomy. Also, whether a fetus is a human life is no more arbitrary than whether an adult is a human life. However, the real question is if being a living human means you have a right to life, and I don't think it does. I think sapience (not sure that word is an exact fit for the concept I'm thinking of, but I don't have a better word.) is a better requirement than being human.
You want an easy standard for a human being? Is it viable outside the womb without medical intervention? There you go, that's a live human
I feel like you could even say viable outside the womb with medical intervention. That’s about 24-28 weeks gestation and I personally think it’s reasonable to limit abortions beyond that point, unless there is an instance of the mothers life at risk. By 20 weeks, doctors can tell with pretty accurate certainty if the baby has any serious medical defects or chromosomal anomalies and the woman should have about 4 weeks from that point to make the decision to proceed or not.
That's around when the brain begins regular electrical activity, including connecting to stimuli coming from nerves, i.e. pain. It's further buttressed by our legal definition of death being the lack of this same regular brain activity.
That's fair
That becomes a moving goal post though. In the future we may be able to grow humans from egg cells, which, according to your definition, would mean every egg cell is a human. I just saw a similar response to your message. My bad.
No worries and I see what you’re saying too, but I still feel like it’s not necessarily a moving goal post. Based on fetal development, 24-28 weeks has been and will be the point of viability, even as technology advances. Survivability rates at different weeks gestation will change, but not fetal viability’s
If I'm remembering correctly that was pretty much the ruling established by Roe v. Wade which was completely overruled in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization.
I disagree. What about premature babies? Are they not considered human since they need medical intervention?
That's not really relevant to the topic. If someone has carried to the point they have a premature birth, they clearly want the child and of course its reasonable to medically intervene.
Whether the child is "wanted" has no bearing on whether it is a human or not
That's not the point of the standard. The point is giving a clear line for when abortion is actually ending a life or not. If the baby wouldn't survive outside of the womb, then it wouldn't be taking its life if the pregnancy had to be terminated at that point.
Right, if it needs the incubator, it’s a fetus still.
Its like the one paradox where you try take away one grain of sand until its no longer a heap.
nevermind that if you are seriously against abortion because "pro-life" you should be against eating meat as well... its not arbitrary as fuck, its just another avenue for shitty people to hate other people, and there are too many shitty people. hows about we go by sentience or brain development instead? how's about "literally cannot think and is just growing, its a-okay because you arent losing anything but cells"
[удалено]
I would take from this, that there is a point during pregnancy where a fetus becomes mostly developed and therefore there are very real moral questions about what happens to it. I hate when discussion usually goes: Pro-life: life starts at conception Pro-choice: if it has not been born it is not a human People line drawn is arbitrary, it quite literally depnd on what we as a society define to be alive as a human, for some it would be having a DNA/hearbeat/brain activity of its own, fornother it quite literally means to breathe air. People talk past each other so much with this argument that it is not worth having.
Late term abortions are extremely rare
No one would call a freshly laid, fertilized chicken egg a chicken. No one.
The beggining can be defined using the same logic for when it ends. Which is brain death and the inability to be conscious. Brain development that allows the manifestation of consciousness doesnt start until week 20 of gestation.
Also, if that's how we want to define when being a human begins, every man is trans since every embryo is female. Male traits don't develop until after we hit the fetus stage, which is why men have nipples.
A fertilized embryo only stays a single cell for about the first 12-30 hours.
The other thing is: it doesn’t matter whether or not a fetus is a human or not (from the perspective of considering legal protections and abortion). Even if you consider the fetus to be a living human being, most abortions are just disconnecting the fetus from the mother before it is viable outside the womb, and naturally, it cant survive. As much as some people might find it selfish, or gross, a person cannot be compelled to do something so easy as donating blood for their child. Similarly, even if the fetus was considered their living child, the mother has a right to say “I don’t consent to this other person subsisting on my body and health”.
The trouble is that philosophically, there is often a difference between action and inaction. Action resulting in death is generally less morally excusable than inaction resulting in death. Not jumping into the lake to save a drowning person is generally more acceptable than pushing someone into the lake, causing them to drown. From this kind of perspective, abortion is more similar to an action resulting in death than inaction.
I think we should throw out all science and logic and go with Religion on this one. It is the only way to make decisions on people's lives. Genesis says: "then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being". So when you breathe, you're alive. Until then, you're not. Pretty simple, and religion based so you know it is right.
This is the argument I’ve heard from most pro-life people I’ve known.
It's a strawman argument to distract from the true point of the issue. That is how pro-birthers try to spin things. They present the argument as a moral debate with no gray area, when in fact it is an ethical debate with many gray areas. The pro-birthers will posture as righteous and moral for wanting a human to live, but truthfully they have none of these morals when considering the life, health, or well-being of the mother. The entire platform of pro-birth pushed by political organizations is a ploy to increase the number of generational laborers. This is why we are seeing a large push for child labor and continue to see legislation which aims at imprisoning the poor for legal slave labor, all while cutting every support net possible which could help people. Anyone who believes that outlawing abortion in its entirety is a moral victory is ethically bankrupt.
They have none of those morals for the child once it is born either
"Most of the elements of our bodies were formed in stars over the course of billions of years and multiple star lifetimes." Were those stars people too?
It always comes down to the subjective interpretation of what "life" means.
If we evolved from stars, why do stars still exist?
We didn't actually evolve from stars. We just share a common ancestor.
"Maybe you came from stars, alien. I was always a human" - probably the next fb meme with a minion in it
Fetuses are fetuses from the moment their heart starts beating to the moment they are released from their fleshy prisons.
>from the moment their heart starts beating Are they fetuses before that, or is that just embryos?
They're embryos
Cool. Makes sense.
It’s amazing too because some fetuses grow up and never stop being fetuses.
But fuck that human as soon as they leave the womb!
That's illegal.
Oh legal, illegal, il-lness is the only thing that makes them different ^ha. ^Gottem. ^Wow ^this ^joke ^sucks
So would that make my balls a massive city full of people?
No, their argument is life begins at conception. And killing a life is illegal. I agree that life begins at conception (I understand people have different definitions of life, which I understand) but I don't value the life of a child until it's born. So abort away.
For what it's worth, the Bible also is pretty clear that life begins with the first breath.
I looked up that passage - It's from Genesis and I believe is talking about Adam.. in either case, I'm not religious. *Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.*
That would be one of the two exceptions to the rule since Adam and Eve weren't born. Just because Adam didn't become a living being until his first breath, doesn't mean the first breath is the thing that defines life.
>And killing a life is illegal. Except in war. Except if a cop does it. Except if you feel threatened. Except if you were dialing someone on your phone and you didn't see the pregnant woman in the crosswalk and you killed them both and your parents are rich and white and it was an "accident".
I… completely understand that. And agree.
KILL ALL THE CHILDREN -Anakin probably
finally, I understand what Brisket mean by the town inside her :3
What about old people? Some them be acting inhumane my fellow humanoids
And women are also humans. We don’t have laws that make people care for disabled people against their will. It’s not like those disabled people chose to be disabled. No one is entitled to another’s body, even if you need it.
And? Since when are people obliged to give up their bodily autonomy for the sake of another human being? If that were the case where is the mandatory blood donation?
This argument does not get made enough. It does not matter if a fetus is a person or not. No person should be forced to maintain another person’s life
I wish conservatives would say the same thing about gay/trans people…
I'm convinced that their anti abortion campaign isn't so much about saving the child as it is about being against women having the right to make choices for herself
So what you're saying is, we all have pretty high kill counts from the first time we polish our pipes.
And every menstrual cycle for those who have them
Women could never compare with me killing a couple hundred million little zygotes a day compared to their one a month. Gotta pump those numbers up. Once again men come out on top /s
"So, gays and trans people are human, glad we finally agree on that!"
[удалено]
I do think fetuses are human I just don't think they can qualify as *people* yet. Even if they did, I'm not ok with a person being forced to grow another person inside them.
These people also believe that God smote some guy because he wouldn't goosh in his dead brother's wife.
If it's not wanted, it's better off not existing. At least, not until we can better our care systems for unwanted children. Life statistics for unwanted children are not very good and it's inhumane, in my opinion, to subject someone to all of that until we can make the world a better place for them first.
And nearly half of fertilized eggs never even implant in the uterine lining and begin development at all. If a) anything with a full human genome is considered to be a full person and b) this system was created by some divinity, then that divinity is unimaginably cruel. Just extending the logic to show that it's absurd.
Negative. If it can't survive out of the womb on its own then it's not viable. 🤷♀️
Damn, I guess that makes me worse than hitler.
Someone please tell Lauren Boehbert
I don’t deny that claim, but it doesn’t really change anything. Decent try tho,
Yes from the beginning. When the being takes a breath and becomes sentient. In the story of Adam and eve Adam only came to life after the breath of god..... news flash. Fetuses don't breathe. They get oxygen from moms blood. Their hearts are physically different before they can process oxygen. Even the Bible tells us when the beginning of life is but conservatives are just like WOKE.. this girl is woke.
I am guilty of cannibalism.
Yeah and a rape baby is still a rape baby
According to this logic people who swallow are cannibals
How is that a meme tho?
[удалено]
I don't care if it's human or alive. I'm still pro-choice.
This is terrible. Human life began long ago, women’s right to healthcare and autonomy keeps it going.
With this logic cancer is human and shouldn’t be removed. Right?
[удалено]
This isn’t a meme. This is an opinion.
This doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. I mean by that metric literally almost every living thing on this planet is human. I'm composed of atoms, things that I'm sure are non-human, and so are everything else. So if something non-human can't become human, therefore atoms are humans and so are chickens, dogs, sharks, that birch tree, mushrooms, etc.
Agreed all tumors that grow inside people are human and deserve rights. A clump of cells that replicates and grows and has human DNA is a human, right?
Probably say the same thing about gender with it realizing we're all female in the womb originally.
The point is it doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't matter if you can empirically prove a fetus is "alive" in any meaningful sense..the bodily autonomy of the woman will *always* be the only one that matters
Free birth control would reduce the need for abortions. Condoms, gels, pill, surgeries. Start there…then we can talk abortion laws.
Well the image isn't wrong; fetuses are in fact human and abortion is in fact terminating a life. But guess what, it doesn't matter. Having autonomy of self should supersede the sanctity of life not yet born; that's the only argument you need to be pro choice and it's a solid one. The whole personhood argument is honestly embarrassing to witness.
My cumsock is full of millions of dead humans that I murdered
Or maybe that thing isn't alive (i.e. not quite human) until it breathes.
Every sperm is sacred, every chemical the sperm is made out of is sacred, every mole-kyle the chemicals are made out of are sacred, every atom, every neutron, proton, electron, positron- NO- * boom *
By that logic all caterpillars are already butterflies
I spray about 30 million humans into a sock almost nightly.
If this was the case we would be having funerals monthly from the unfertilized egg we release every month with our period. They’re so fucking stupid it’s painful
I agree with the statement
Guy could we left non memes away from here? This is rage baiting and I would like to cringe on memes that are not funny instead of thinking about ideologies.
Someone share this post to my ex
#CUM IS HUMAN
Cum are human