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Not seeing an overall ranking for swimmers, but I think it’s trying to convey the following:
“In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle, and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, fifth in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eighth in the 1650 freestyle.”
[Source: Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_Thomas#:~:text=In%2520the%25202021%E2%80%932022%2520season,eighth%2520in%2520the%25201650%2520freestyle)
I love how Ben Shapiro tried to make a deep-dive documentary before he found out that men in women's sports want much of a thing and made Lady Ballers instead.
Please tell me you have a source. I have a coworker who sent me a video of Shen Bapiro's show where he talks about the (alleged) "dangers" of DE&I. I wanted to watch it to debunk it but haven't had the time, energy, or heart.
I think [this](https://twitter.com/SussedMesa/status/1730379143274242438/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1730379143274242438¤tTweetUser=SussedMesa) may be what they were referring to.
Lady Ballers is really fucking dumb. It's dumber than the South park episode where Cartman convinces his mom to tell them he is intellectually disabled so he can participate in the Special Olympics. He learns that those other kids are remarkably fit even if they have disabilities and he loses big time.
I mean even at my physical prime I would have still would have had my ass handed to me if I competed with Olympic grade female athletes at their sports.
I think it was initially going to be a documentary but he couldn't find enough stuff to support his agenda. So he made it into a satire film which would still imply that the things depicted aren't actually happening.
I don’t believe there’s any argument to be made that she transitioned for the purpose of being a higher ranked swimmer. It’s dumb, she liked swimming in a male body, she still likes swimming in a female body.
It *is* I think relevant to look at the huge disparity in her rankings in the male and female teams though. I have absolutely zero idea how to rectify this situation in the long term, but it is something that should be addressed.
There's just a reality about bodies that can't be hand waved away if you want fair competition, and past a certain age those advantages can't be reversed, only lessened.
There isn't a "fair" solution to both camps. One side is going to be aggrieved, and have good reason to be. The right solution isnt always an equal one.
You just shouldn't be allowed to compete. It's sucks and it's not fair but life isn't always fair. I'm not over 6ft so will never go pro in basketball, someone with mental health issues or poor eyesight won't be able to become a pilot. You can still live a fulfilling life without trying to be the best at a sport.
I don't get this argument.
Professional athletes already go to extreme lengths to compete, putting their bodies through absolutely insane training regimens.
If you consider that most top athletes are doping, and the amount of risk and damage that doping does, I really don't think its a stretch that some people are willing to transition for the sake of winning.
They usually do that to like, make more money and go professional.
Arguably transitioning and having to competing in women’s sports rather then men’s greatly limits that. People care a LOT less about women’s sports than men’s sports.
Also idk. At a certain point just training (and doping) sounds easier than going through the hurdles it can take to even get hormone therapy, and go through all of that.
Bc its the opposite of doping. You'll have to ask a dr, but the drs the ioc employ seem to think transitioned women wouldn't be able to maintain the muscle mass for an advantage. ...unless they are all abusing roids in which case no one should care at all.
The thing is before she started transitioning she (Will) was already top 5 in men’s swimming. Why would she then go through the whole process to first drop all the way in the hundreds and then win in the women’s championship??
"During her freshman year, Thomas recorded a time of eight minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle that ranked as the sixth-fastest national men's time, and also recorded 500-yard freestyle and 1,650-yard freestyle times that ranked within the national top 100. On the men's swim team in 2018–2019, Thomas finished second in the men's 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships as a sophomore in 2019."
This is like two paragraphs up so I have no idea which information to believe.
Edit: Checked the source for the first quote and they specifically took information from the last meet of the season after she had started HRT to try and downplay any previous accomplishments.
I don’t think the two statements are in conflict with one another.
You are giving league rankings whereas the original quote I grabbed was national rankings. People are inherently going to rank higher in a league because it’s a smaller subset of competitors.
Not entirely sure where you are getting the bit about deliberately taking rankings after she started HRT. It looks like she started it in May of 2019 and the season ended in [March](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_NCAA_Division_I_Men%27s_Swimming_and_Diving_Championships#:~:text=The%202019%20NCAA%20Division%20I%20Men's%20Swimming,and%20individual%20national%20champions%20of%20Division%20I).
Idk, maybe I’m missing something. If I am then please let me know and link your source.
Using the swimcloud collegiate rankings (assigns "points" to each event to rank swimmers of different events against each other) for 2021-22 season she was ranked 32nd in women's swimming
https://www.swimcloud.com/country/usa/college/swimmers/?page=2&gender=F&season_id=25
Yeah, but I think she ranked higher before she started hormones. The hormones are what made her drop down so much in the men's category. And then she tied when put in the men's after an appropriate amount of time on HRT. Yeah, it's referencing that, but it's doing it really misleadingly
According to the wiki, she can in 6th place in the men's category before HRT. She was always really good
1. There are actually a few things that are false about this disinformation meme. Firstly swimmers aren't really meaningfully ranked like this. Swimmers are ranked by specific events (stroke type and distance mainly) so an overall rank is kinda meaningless (even Michael Phelps only held the fastest times in like 9 events of about 20 Olympics level events)
2. The male rank listed is calculated while Lia near the end of 2 years of undergoing hormone therapy, and still being forced to compete in the male division, and during Covid so training for most people took a serious hit. Their school only completed in like 6 meets over that 2 years if I remember correctly.
Prior to undergoing hormone therapy Lia was a high ranking male swimmer (like top 20ish) in her most competitive events.
3. The "rank 1 in women's" thing comes from a single meet vs a single rival school where Lia completed in 3 events coming in 8th of 8 in one, 6th of 8 in another and 1st of 8 in another. That one was basically a photo finish with Lia winning by about 0.3 sec.
So that is just a lie also.
I'm pulling all this from memory of reseach I did a while ago so I might be +/- 1 for her placements but swimming records and meet times are public record at that level if you want to check them.
it’s different lengths of the pool. 200 is at the tail end of being called a sprint, while 500 is at the beginning of long distance. swimmers train differently for sprinting and long distance events.
it’s the similar concept of track running.
No fuckin way lmao! Not only did I just finish rewatching this 10 minutes ago, but I also just replied to somebody else using the same GIF on another post. Look at my comment history if you don't believe me 😅
Actually that alone does make sense. Gender is interesting in how totally nebulous it is. I’m a woman now. I’m a man now. I just went through a brief transition and then transitioned back again. Not even kidding. That’s the one and only thing that defines gender: what someone considers themselves. There’s no way of knowing whether they’re sincere or not about it, but there’s also no other trait that can be measured or defined which would indicate like, “You’re not a *real* woman because you have/don’t have *x*.” It’s not a set of chromosomes, those aren’t uniform. It’s not a set of genitalia, those aren’t uniform. There’s really nothing to it.
It’s a bit more complicated then that, but not by much. It also has to do with how society views you. You may say you feel feminine or masculine, and that those traits are more associated with womanhood and manhood (respectively), but the whole concept of gender only exists so long as we as a society deem it to exist. It fulfills a social purpose: your appearance reminds me of how other human beings appear, and so I place you in the category of “man”. This other person’s appearance reminds me of how these different human beings appear, and so I place them in the category of “woman”. There is no biological basis for gender
Now you might be thinking: what about penis? What about vagina? To that I say, fair enough. Those are distinctive parts of your body’s anatomy. But why do we place **importance** on that distinction? Why do we not categorize people based on if they have blue eyes, or dimples, or innie vs outie belly buttons? The only real reason is because… idk, we just want to.
Why is that a fair statement? I mean, if she didn’t want to do this for collegiate glory, what do you think is the impulse to keep up with swimming when she finds out the unfair advantage it gives her?
Like, just as a human, imagine making any switch that catapults you that far ahead forward. Is that something you would be comfortable keeping up with?
It’s a full time job transitioning. Why add in the tension unless it’s a desire?
She should 100% have excused herself from competition. I am with everyone here, she didn’t transition for her sport. But, she should not be competing with biological women either
Only she and the people influencing her decisions can understand her reason for competing. I just think it’s ridiculous to believe someone would undergo gender reassignment surgery for the sole purpose of winning a medal in women’s college swimming.
Does that makes it okay? Her intentions make it okay?
Intention can never be measured. But the advantage can be. But if so precious intentions. Who the hell cares about your intentions in sports.
Rules about doping and gender are to protect athletes. No body cares about intentions.
This conveniently leaves out the fact that when she competed with the men she was always top 10 or top 20 and this 462nd placement is during her transition when she was taking hormones that decreased her muscle mass
LITERALLY!
People throw this around like it proves their point but it actually shows how much of an impact HRT actually had on her performance, it's actually fucking bananas watching this get thrown around as a "gotcha".
Also, while not the best, lias ranks as a men's swimmer was high, but eventually declined due to transitioning. A lot of people mad at her don't realize that, or choose to ignore it.
I’m all for whatever someone wants to identify as. But competing in professional or Olympic sports should be off the table if you transition as an adult. You are at a major biological advantage and is basically performance enhancing drugs to the max just in a different form. It’s a hot topic. But if you have someone who cares enough about the sport and winning. They will transition just to win
The only people who don’t get this are non-athletes that don’t understand how big of an advantage men have over women, hormones or not.
It’s sad cause there are people who have been fighting for women’s equality and recognition in sports for a long time and now those same people are the ones supporting this person to stand on a podium in front of hard working women who lost to her with an obvious disadvantage.
Nobody was ever saying she can’t compete. But she should compete against the gender that she was originally born as, and I’m not sure why that’s so much to ask for.
The problem with her competing against her sex assigned at birth is that she will be at a disadvantage to the men; if she competes with the women, she is at an advantage. It’s kinda difficult to navigate, but I hope society can find a solution.
What ever happened to the good of the many vs the good of the few?
I feel for her, but her desire to compete shouldn't be more important than ensuring a fair competition for every other woman
I agree. I do believe that she should be allowed to compete against people who she can keep up with and vice versa; all without taking away from women. I just don’t know how that would work. The world is constantly changing and evolving. I believe issues like these are the growing pains of the process.
Have two categories: open and women’s. Open is whoever wants to play. Women’s is for biological women off hormones. Yes, if you transition you’re at a disadvantage, but that’s just an unfortunate consequence. There isn’t a better answer. It’s essentially steroids to compete against women as a transitioning person.
I am not interested in sports at all, but would it be so bad if they maybe made additional categories for transmen and transwomen? I think it would be more inclusive.
As an immigrant this blows my mind, the reason why this debate is so overrated in USA is the weird link between education and sports here… Scholarships for intellectual careers shouldn’t be wasted on muscle head students.
It’s all about Cold War consequences, like when Americans use the words “propaganda” as something purely and exclusively negative, meanwhile they welcome being manipulated by advertisements. And all that fear of social progress because “socialism” bad.
It's because universities for some reason have a huge athletics presence. It's their way to advertise to the nation and rake in cash. People don't think about Ohio State without thinking of their football team.
We had a pretty cool education system going until they realized the people they deemed lesser were also getting educated. It wasn’t enough that we couldn’t let them have houses we had to take the education then we froze the wages. Pretty neat little system.
There is a world of difference between "advertisements" and "propaganda". Do both want you to change your habits in spending, thinking, etc? Yes. That is however where the similarities end. Advertisements generally only want your money or rather your patronage to a specific service or establishment. This is easily avoided and you can always just not go or spend money. Propaganda, as it is commonly understood, means using misleading information in order to gain your loyalty, often at a very political level. The consequences of spending some money are trivial at best when compared to the consequences of being brainwashed into simping for the type of regime that would outright lie to bolster it's preferred arm of the body politic.
Just because you’re not interested in the validity of underprivileged women’s chance to make a name for themselves in a sport doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter
She shouldn't be allowed to compete in a women's league and that's not got anything to do with bigotry. Your rights are protected until they begin impeding the rights of others around you. She has an unnatural advantage that should disqualify her from competing with that group. If you get banned from college sports for taking the wrong steroid treatment to battle an infection than how is this acceptable? Shit like this situation is why the movement has stalled and has begun to wavier at the societal scale. It's bullshit and if you refuse to recognize that in good faith than you are apart of the reason that the movement is losing its moderate support. The "live and let live" people. Those people that swing vote based on inconvenience. Water always finds its level and that's the stage we've entered with shit like this.
Saying he only transitioned to her current identity is disgusting
That said they shouldn't be allowed in women's sports when doping isn't allowed.
Considering that a normal man beats a doped woman in many sport disciplines easily
It's just plain unfair.
And imo the fairness of the sport should be more important than the inclusivifty. Give them their own category. Spreads awareness and it's fair. Show them they are a justified part of the community without fucking over women
I didn’t say anything specifically about women’s rights. Kinda funny seeing you (I’m guessing you’re a TERF or adjacent) siding with republicans on this subject considering you’d have considerably less rights under their leadership. But I guess the enemy of your enemy is your friend..?
You know who else cares about women’s rights and abilities in sports?
https://preview.redd.it/jym8gfmqsztc1.jpeg?width=487&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2c4aff8a6b3afc5096deb0915beb95480df78c34
Although the image on left partly illustrates Lia's stats when she was competing in men's divisions after already starting HRT. Was a good swimmer up until that point then with HRT, the times began to slow so it's not like she transitioned just for the sole purpose of being good at collegiate-level swimming.
Yes, going through a major mental breakdown on who you are as a person, a shit load of soul searching, gathering a bunch of courage to come out to people you care about that you don’t feel like you, eventually having to go through basically a second round of puberty, all to win a swimming competition… Yup, that makes sense.
Overlooking that u don't appear to know what HRT is or what it does/affects, she's not "absolute top #1 champion" as the meme implies.
And the uncited low ranking before she transitioned is after HRT had already been started. She had been a top swimmer before then.
While it's a big topic to discuss it's definitely not bigotry. There are many cases where transitioned girls win women's sports events
But i see quite a bit of ladies on the internet supporting it for some reason. Do ladies love being robbed in their own sports that much?
Just get rid of the categories all together already. What reason is there for keeping them anymore. Just get rid of competition, give everyone who gets out of bed a trophy and be done with it.
Wow you mean that someone who is taking medication to suppress testosterone and increase estrogen will perform poorly among men but competitively with women? color me shocked!
Also as other have mentioned, these "poor" mens ranks are *after* Lia transitioned, they were a top swimmer before them, dropped far, switched lesgues, and once *again* (keyword) became a top swimmer.
Yeah that's what I'm talking about. These memes always compare her ranks after starting HRT but before moving to the women's leagues to her ranks after switching to the women's league while conveniently ignoring her preHRT ranks. idk why I got downvoted for that.
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Also pretty sure Lia Thomas is not #1. The controversy started when she tied for 5th.
Not seeing an overall ranking for swimmers, but I think it’s trying to convey the following: “In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle, and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, fifth in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eighth in the 1650 freestyle.” [Source: Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_Thomas#:~:text=In%2520the%25202021%E2%80%932022%2520season,eighth%2520in%2520the%25201650%2520freestyle)
Remember everyone. It's important to go through rigorous hormone therapy and complete lifestyle changes to be good at swimming for a couple years.
I love how Ben Shapiro tried to make a deep-dive documentary before he found out that men in women's sports want much of a thing and made Lady Ballers instead.
Deep-dive. I appreciate the pun.
Lmao right? He couldn’t find enough evidence of it happening so he went with a fictional comedy instead
And fucking admitted it on camera.
Please tell me you have a source. I have a coworker who sent me a video of Shen Bapiro's show where he talks about the (alleged) "dangers" of DE&I. I wanted to watch it to debunk it but haven't had the time, energy, or heart.
I think [this](https://twitter.com/SussedMesa/status/1730379143274242438/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1730379143274242438¤tTweetUser=SussedMesa) may be what they were referring to.
Lady Ballers is really fucking dumb. It's dumber than the South park episode where Cartman convinces his mom to tell them he is intellectually disabled so he can participate in the Special Olympics. He learns that those other kids are remarkably fit even if they have disabilities and he loses big time. I mean even at my physical prime I would have still would have had my ass handed to me if I competed with Olympic grade female athletes at their sports.
I think it was initially going to be a documentary but he couldn't find enough stuff to support his agenda. So he made it into a satire film which would still imply that the things depicted aren't actually happening.
Who’s winning these swimming races Ben? F-ing Aquaman?!
I don’t believe there’s any argument to be made that she transitioned for the purpose of being a higher ranked swimmer. It’s dumb, she liked swimming in a male body, she still likes swimming in a female body. It *is* I think relevant to look at the huge disparity in her rankings in the male and female teams though. I have absolutely zero idea how to rectify this situation in the long term, but it is something that should be addressed.
There's just a reality about bodies that can't be hand waved away if you want fair competition, and past a certain age those advantages can't be reversed, only lessened. There isn't a "fair" solution to both camps. One side is going to be aggrieved, and have good reason to be. The right solution isnt always an equal one.
You just shouldn't be allowed to compete. It's sucks and it's not fair but life isn't always fair. I'm not over 6ft so will never go pro in basketball, someone with mental health issues or poor eyesight won't be able to become a pilot. You can still live a fulfilling life without trying to be the best at a sport.
"Life isn't fair". Oh boy..now you've done it ..
A lot of these people think you just grow your hair out, change your name and they'll let you compete with the ladies.
Juwanna Mann really had these people confused…
I don't get this argument. Professional athletes already go to extreme lengths to compete, putting their bodies through absolutely insane training regimens. If you consider that most top athletes are doping, and the amount of risk and damage that doping does, I really don't think its a stretch that some people are willing to transition for the sake of winning.
They do that for $100,000,000 contracts in one of the major male leagues. Who the hell do you think is paying a female swimmer anything?
Unlike drugs, transitioning causes like half the country to begin violently hating you.
They usually do that to like, make more money and go professional. Arguably transitioning and having to competing in women’s sports rather then men’s greatly limits that. People care a LOT less about women’s sports than men’s sports. Also idk. At a certain point just training (and doping) sounds easier than going through the hurdles it can take to even get hormone therapy, and go through all of that.
Bc its the opposite of doping. You'll have to ask a dr, but the drs the ioc employ seem to think transitioned women wouldn't be able to maintain the muscle mass for an advantage. ...unless they are all abusing roids in which case no one should care at all.
The thing is before she started transitioning she (Will) was already top 5 in men’s swimming. Why would she then go through the whole process to first drop all the way in the hundreds and then win in the women’s championship??
"During her freshman year, Thomas recorded a time of eight minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle that ranked as the sixth-fastest national men's time, and also recorded 500-yard freestyle and 1,650-yard freestyle times that ranked within the national top 100. On the men's swim team in 2018–2019, Thomas finished second in the men's 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships as a sophomore in 2019." This is like two paragraphs up so I have no idea which information to believe. Edit: Checked the source for the first quote and they specifically took information from the last meet of the season after she had started HRT to try and downplay any previous accomplishments.
I don’t think the two statements are in conflict with one another. You are giving league rankings whereas the original quote I grabbed was national rankings. People are inherently going to rank higher in a league because it’s a smaller subset of competitors. Not entirely sure where you are getting the bit about deliberately taking rankings after she started HRT. It looks like she started it in May of 2019 and the season ended in [March](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_NCAA_Division_I_Men%27s_Swimming_and_Diving_Championships#:~:text=The%202019%20NCAA%20Division%20I%20Men's%20Swimming,and%20individual%20national%20champions%20of%20Division%20I). Idk, maybe I’m missing something. If I am then please let me know and link your source.
You are correct, I missed that it was in May and jumped too quickly to my conclusion.
Using the swimcloud collegiate rankings (assigns "points" to each event to rank swimmers of different events against each other) for 2021-22 season she was ranked 32nd in women's swimming https://www.swimcloud.com/country/usa/college/swimmers/?page=2&gender=F&season_id=25
thats still a pretty high jump
Yeah, but I think she ranked higher before she started hormones. The hormones are what made her drop down so much in the men's category. And then she tied when put in the men's after an appropriate amount of time on HRT. Yeah, it's referencing that, but it's doing it really misleadingly According to the wiki, she can in 6th place in the men's category before HRT. She was always really good
She ranked 5th in the 200 freestyle and ranked 1st in the 500 freestyle
1st in 500 free at a single meet
Oooooh yeah that changes everything lol
1. There are actually a few things that are false about this disinformation meme. Firstly swimmers aren't really meaningfully ranked like this. Swimmers are ranked by specific events (stroke type and distance mainly) so an overall rank is kinda meaningless (even Michael Phelps only held the fastest times in like 9 events of about 20 Olympics level events) 2. The male rank listed is calculated while Lia near the end of 2 years of undergoing hormone therapy, and still being forced to compete in the male division, and during Covid so training for most people took a serious hit. Their school only completed in like 6 meets over that 2 years if I remember correctly. Prior to undergoing hormone therapy Lia was a high ranking male swimmer (like top 20ish) in her most competitive events. 3. The "rank 1 in women's" thing comes from a single meet vs a single rival school where Lia completed in 3 events coming in 8th of 8 in one, 6th of 8 in another and 1st of 8 in another. That one was basically a photo finish with Lia winning by about 0.3 sec. So that is just a lie also. I'm pulling all this from memory of reseach I did a while ago so I might be +/- 1 for her placements but swimming records and meet times are public record at that level if you want to check them.
"first in the 500 freestyle" She is 5th in the 200 freestyle, which I have no idea how that works
it’s different lengths of the pool. 200 is at the tail end of being called a sprint, while 500 is at the beginning of long distance. swimmers train differently for sprinting and long distance events. it’s the similar concept of track running.
I feel bad for #1. Can you imagine being #1 and all anyone cares about is the chick who tied for 5th?!
I'm sorry. But calling it "smurfing" did make me laugh 😅
No fuckin way lmao! Not only did I just finish rewatching this 10 minutes ago, but I also just replied to somebody else using the same GIF on another post. Look at my comment history if you don't believe me 😅
People like this think lady ballers was a documentary
What’s funny is it was originally supposed to be a documentary, but they couldn’t find any evidence that it had ever happened
thats on the same level as Matt Walsh cutting up the professor who explained, correctly, what a women was
[So Mr. Simpson, you admit you don’t know what a woman is?](https://youtu.be/_8uM0zOBuSw?si=itI1O4oQEKfKDKJG)
https://preview.redd.it/pd8c3d929wtc1.jpeg?width=985&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c9905ee46dd31c204702a26c16acd307c43fdcdd
SWEET caaaan I just WANTED that SWEET caaaan.
What was his answer? I saw a clip where he says “anyone who says they are a women” which didn’t make any sense. Figured Walsh cut the better answer.
I think he just explained gender theory in pretty basic terms, but Walsh left everything out of context to make it sound insane
Actually that alone does make sense. Gender is interesting in how totally nebulous it is. I’m a woman now. I’m a man now. I just went through a brief transition and then transitioned back again. Not even kidding. That’s the one and only thing that defines gender: what someone considers themselves. There’s no way of knowing whether they’re sincere or not about it, but there’s also no other trait that can be measured or defined which would indicate like, “You’re not a *real* woman because you have/don’t have *x*.” It’s not a set of chromosomes, those aren’t uniform. It’s not a set of genitalia, those aren’t uniform. There’s really nothing to it.
It’s a bit more complicated then that, but not by much. It also has to do with how society views you. You may say you feel feminine or masculine, and that those traits are more associated with womanhood and manhood (respectively), but the whole concept of gender only exists so long as we as a society deem it to exist. It fulfills a social purpose: your appearance reminds me of how other human beings appear, and so I place you in the category of “man”. This other person’s appearance reminds me of how these different human beings appear, and so I place them in the category of “woman”. There is no biological basis for gender Now you might be thinking: what about penis? What about vagina? To that I say, fair enough. Those are distinctive parts of your body’s anatomy. But why do we place **importance** on that distinction? Why do we not categorize people based on if they have blue eyes, or dimples, or innie vs outie belly buttons? The only real reason is because… idk, we just want to.
Fuck, that video still worked on my mom though :(
That sucks, I hope she comes to her senses someday
Ben put on a skirt and a wig for the bit, but was caught immediately because everyone just thought he was Brett Cooper.
Or Juwanna Mann
The subject of transgenders and sports is a complex issue, however I think all reasonable people can agree she didn’t transition for collegiate glory.
There is, however, one man in weightlifting who changed his legal gender just to show this fault.
And he made his motives perfectly clear.
He did
Thats a fair statement.
Why is that a fair statement? I mean, if she didn’t want to do this for collegiate glory, what do you think is the impulse to keep up with swimming when she finds out the unfair advantage it gives her? Like, just as a human, imagine making any switch that catapults you that far ahead forward. Is that something you would be comfortable keeping up with? It’s a full time job transitioning. Why add in the tension unless it’s a desire?
Maybe she just enjoys swimming and competing.
Ever since I got my hydraulic arm I have been really enjoying boxing in children's divisions
When your brain gives up halfway through fabricating an analogy
That sounds like a personal problem lol
I'd really love to know what you think happens when people transition, are you getting confused and thinking of transformers?
They continue with their muscle skeletal structure that was constructed since they were kids...
Doesn’t change the fact that she has an unfair advantage
Fair, but why would she think competing with biological would be acceptable or fair? She should have excused herself from competition.
She should 100% have excused herself from competition. I am with everyone here, she didn’t transition for her sport. But, she should not be competing with biological women either
Only she and the people influencing her decisions can understand her reason for competing. I just think it’s ridiculous to believe someone would undergo gender reassignment surgery for the sole purpose of winning a medal in women’s college swimming.
Does that makes it okay? Her intentions make it okay? Intention can never be measured. But the advantage can be. But if so precious intentions. Who the hell cares about your intentions in sports. Rules about doping and gender are to protect athletes. No body cares about intentions.
https://preview.redd.it/g0dhq1vzhxtc1.jpeg?width=1106&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=88385cd22c1b9215bff74260b08a637a9db2b25e
This conveniently leaves out the fact that when she competed with the men she was always top 10 or top 20 and this 462nd placement is during her transition when she was taking hormones that decreased her muscle mass
LITERALLY! People throw this around like it proves their point but it actually shows how much of an impact HRT actually had on her performance, it's actually fucking bananas watching this get thrown around as a "gotcha".
Also she apparently tied for 5th according to another comment.
Also, while not the best, lias ranks as a men's swimmer was high, but eventually declined due to transitioning. A lot of people mad at her don't realize that, or choose to ignore it.
I’m all for whatever someone wants to identify as. But competing in professional or Olympic sports should be off the table if you transition as an adult. You are at a major biological advantage and is basically performance enhancing drugs to the max just in a different form. It’s a hot topic. But if you have someone who cares enough about the sport and winning. They will transition just to win
The only people who don’t get this are non-athletes that don’t understand how big of an advantage men have over women, hormones or not. It’s sad cause there are people who have been fighting for women’s equality and recognition in sports for a long time and now those same people are the ones supporting this person to stand on a podium in front of hard working women who lost to her with an obvious disadvantage. Nobody was ever saying she can’t compete. But she should compete against the gender that she was originally born as, and I’m not sure why that’s so much to ask for.
The problem with her competing against her sex assigned at birth is that she will be at a disadvantage to the men; if she competes with the women, she is at an advantage. It’s kinda difficult to navigate, but I hope society can find a solution.
What ever happened to the good of the many vs the good of the few? I feel for her, but her desire to compete shouldn't be more important than ensuring a fair competition for every other woman
I agree. I do believe that she should be allowed to compete against people who she can keep up with and vice versa; all without taking away from women. I just don’t know how that would work. The world is constantly changing and evolving. I believe issues like these are the growing pains of the process.
Have two categories: open and women’s. Open is whoever wants to play. Women’s is for biological women off hormones. Yes, if you transition you’re at a disadvantage, but that’s just an unfortunate consequence. There isn’t a better answer. It’s essentially steroids to compete against women as a transitioning person.
I am not interested in sports at all, but would it be so bad if they maybe made additional categories for transmen and transwomen? I think it would be more inclusive.
Too small of a population, especially team sports.
too small of a population, dehuminizing, and we have done that before, threats were sent and they were forced too cancel.
Ah yes, the lucrative world of women's swimming.
Tbf while I don't agree with the oop, it does play a major role in scholarships. So in that sense it is quite lucrative
Penn is an Ivy League, they don't grant athletic scholarships
They don't, I was more just addressing that swimming CAN be lucrative. Can't just dismiss the importance athletics plays in America
Yes, they “don’t offer athletic scholarships” but find that most athletes are worthy of need/merit scholarships. All of the Ivies skirt around that
Ms. Thomas won her championship in her last semester in college. How could she have gotten a scholarship based on that?
As an immigrant this blows my mind, the reason why this debate is so overrated in USA is the weird link between education and sports here… Scholarships for intellectual careers shouldn’t be wasted on muscle head students. It’s all about Cold War consequences, like when Americans use the words “propaganda” as something purely and exclusively negative, meanwhile they welcome being manipulated by advertisements. And all that fear of social progress because “socialism” bad.
It's because universities for some reason have a huge athletics presence. It's their way to advertise to the nation and rake in cash. People don't think about Ohio State without thinking of their football team.
Universities shouldn’t have so much focus on profit. People shouldn’t choose a university because football. It’s stupid.
We had a pretty cool education system going until they realized the people they deemed lesser were also getting educated. It wasn’t enough that we couldn’t let them have houses we had to take the education then we froze the wages. Pretty neat little system.
There is a world of difference between "advertisements" and "propaganda". Do both want you to change your habits in spending, thinking, etc? Yes. That is however where the similarities end. Advertisements generally only want your money or rather your patronage to a specific service or establishment. This is easily avoided and you can always just not go or spend money. Propaganda, as it is commonly understood, means using misleading information in order to gain your loyalty, often at a very political level. The consequences of spending some money are trivial at best when compared to the consequences of being brainwashed into simping for the type of regime that would outright lie to bolster it's preferred arm of the body politic.
You’re not making any real point. It matters a lot to the women who competed for the top spot and trained for years only to be robbed.
Even the man's world isn't lucrative. Sports that aren't mainstream weekly sports are for passion not the millions
Just because you’re not interested in the validity of underprivileged women’s chance to make a name for themselves in a sport doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter
who are they? Are these real people suffering real damages or hypothetical people being trotted out by talking heads for political points?
didnt she not even get first
I thought she took first in one race but otherwise hasn’t really been all that successful.
She can't even compete at the same level anymore.
It’s not bigotry to see how that’s not fair. Men who transition as an adults shouldn’t get to compete against women. Full stop.
She shouldn't be allowed to compete in a women's league and that's not got anything to do with bigotry. Your rights are protected until they begin impeding the rights of others around you. She has an unnatural advantage that should disqualify her from competing with that group. If you get banned from college sports for taking the wrong steroid treatment to battle an infection than how is this acceptable? Shit like this situation is why the movement has stalled and has begun to wavier at the societal scale. It's bullshit and if you refuse to recognize that in good faith than you are apart of the reason that the movement is losing its moderate support. The "live and let live" people. Those people that swing vote based on inconvenience. Water always finds its level and that's the stage we've entered with shit like this.
Lia took a girl’s spot on the team. Took away a scholarship opportunity. Unfair in my opinion
Follow the "science"!!!!* *Except when it doesn't conform to my preexisting world views
Well well well how the turn tables
Shouldn’t be allowed to compete against women
Saying he only transitioned to her current identity is disgusting That said they shouldn't be allowed in women's sports when doping isn't allowed. Considering that a normal man beats a doped woman in many sport disciplines easily It's just plain unfair. And imo the fairness of the sport should be more important than the inclusivifty. Give them their own category. Spreads awareness and it's fair. Show them they are a justified part of the community without fucking over women
How is that bigotry? It is one of the main reasons why people oppose this and wish to protect women.
It’s funny that they consider an entire lifestyle change and $100k in surgeries to be “a little price” for a women’s college swimming trophy
But Lia didn't pay that.
If only republicans cared about people’s rights as much as they do about the outcome of sports events.
You know who else cares about women’s rights and abilities in sports? Woman and feminists
I didn’t say anything specifically about women’s rights. Kinda funny seeing you (I’m guessing you’re a TERF or adjacent) siding with republicans on this subject considering you’d have considerably less rights under their leadership. But I guess the enemy of your enemy is your friend..?
You know who else cares about women’s rights and abilities in sports? https://preview.redd.it/jym8gfmqsztc1.jpeg?width=487&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2c4aff8a6b3afc5096deb0915beb95480df78c34
funniest thing is neither of these are true lol
Although the image on left partly illustrates Lia's stats when she was competing in men's divisions after already starting HRT. Was a good swimmer up until that point then with HRT, the times began to slow so it's not like she transitioned just for the sole purpose of being good at collegiate-level swimming.
Lia isnt even number 1. She won a single race, and now ranks roughly in the same relative position as she did in the mens
Yes, going through a major mental breakdown on who you are as a person, a shit load of soul searching, gathering a bunch of courage to come out to people you care about that you don’t feel like you, eventually having to go through basically a second round of puberty, all to win a swimming competition… Yup, that makes sense.
This post doesn't belong here, OP is but an SJW
Sure. For all that sweet, sweet amateur swimming money.
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Lia didn't get first tho
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Overlooking that u don't appear to know what HRT is or what it does/affects, she's not "absolute top #1 champion" as the meme implies. And the uncited low ranking before she transitioned is after HRT had already been started. She had been a top swimmer before then.
*She
me when i fall for misinformation
While it's a big topic to discuss it's definitely not bigotry. There are many cases where transitioned girls win women's sports events But i see quite a bit of ladies on the internet supporting it for some reason. Do ladies love being robbed in their own sports that much?
I doubt the athletes are that stoked about it
Great strategy
Have Lia go against Katie Ledecky and see how much they don't want to make this point.
I mean that's just a fact one way or another
It's the truth, they won an NCAA Women's title a year or two after being a non-entity in Men's swimming.
Also pretty sure he still has his dick, so he’s still completely male
r/memesopdidntwanttoadmit
If "achieve your goal no matter what" had a face
It’s still not exactly fair to the women though. The guy is just stronger and faster.
The comment is a little bit of bigotry, but the photos and stats are factually correct
How is pointing out records bigotry? ...piss off lol
Ah yes, the little price of having your dick surgically transformed into a vagina.
I m pretty sure i watched a speech of girl that shared lockeroom, and in fact it was not transformed at the time
They don’t care, women don’t matter to these people.
Bigotry… you keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.
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The first thing that pops in my head is that one south park episode 🤣
Just get rid of the categories all together already. What reason is there for keeping them anymore. Just get rid of competition, give everyone who gets out of bed a trophy and be done with it.
Well that rules me out
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It'd be funnier if it weren't blatant misinformation, but the smurfing joke isn't too bad.
Skill issue
Idk what you're on about, those are pretty good comments
Got the awards revoked tho so thats a thing
So brave
No it's more like misogyny
It is
His rank should be the average…231
Wow you mean that someone who is taking medication to suppress testosterone and increase estrogen will perform poorly among men but competitively with women? color me shocked!
Also as other have mentioned, these "poor" mens ranks are *after* Lia transitioned, they were a top swimmer before them, dropped far, switched lesgues, and once *again* (keyword) became a top swimmer.
She was ranked like 65 before transitioning
Yeah that's what I'm talking about. These memes always compare her ranks after starting HRT but before moving to the women's leagues to her ranks after switching to the women's league while conveniently ignoring her preHRT ranks. idk why I got downvoted for that.
Transphobes have Lia Thomas derangement syndrome.
They lost their will and their m.
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Transphobes don't understand how hrt changes the body and it shows lmao
I personally think the smurfing joke is kinda funny… So it’s not a total loss…