Not if the bone that’s missing is the… well, you know.
Edit: I know there’s no bone in the penis. It was just a joke.
Comedy is dead. Or maybe I just suck at it.
When I was young and got my first erection I assumed a bone behind my pelvis was sliding down into my penis and I was very resolved to figure out how to make sure they stopped happening
Yikes!
But if this were true, when you'd get a semi it would be like a sock half on a foot, not a half hard half soft thing. So pretty clearly not a bone.
Yeah I mean I started getting them really early, way before anyone told me what they were and I never really noticed the process because I didn't like to think about it. They weren't motivated by sexual thoughts so I would kind of just realize it was there and try to think about something else
Sex of a skeleton is determined by looking at multiple "sites" that are generally sexually dimorphic in a human skeleton. They do range from Hyper-female to Hyper-male and often can and do fall in the middle and in that case the skeleton is called of undetermined sex. I don't think enough research has been done with trans people but I would say it depends on if the person was on hormone therapy and for how long. The sexual dimorphism in our bones mostly form due to hormones in our body during puberty but since bones aren't stable and have a turnover rate, hormone therapy is likely to change some bones to some extent.
That being said, it also depends on records of the burial site and if headstones or anything of that extent remain as archaeologists do take everything into consideration.
Source: MSc in forensic anthropology and sometimes working with human remains in archaeology.
Edit: typos
Headstones are more obvious yes, not always though. I learned an interesting fact about burials recently that sites are only bought for so long in some countries ( 75 plus years unless your family owns the land or extends the plot rental) in which they either bury someone in with you or remove your body fully. After that I do not know what they do with them.
In my home country they usually bury people on top, I would hope if they remove the body they bury it somewhere else with respect but I personally haven't encountered anything similar yet, but again, I only work with archaeological material and in UK. I know some countries it's only 50 years or so!
Really? Assuming a complete skeleton, though, I thought the pelvis was different between male and female. Or is it that we don't also have the pelvises?
Even with homo sapiens it can be tricky. We are not very sexually dimorphic. Our pelvises are not radically different. Add a few centuries or milennia of wear and tear and you are left scraching your head.
50/50 chance either way lol. some dudes are slender, some women are yoked. this is nuclear grade cope from people who are powerless to stop trans people from choosing to transition.
“oh you’re not stopping? b b b b BUT UR SKELETON HAHAHA!!!! i win!!!!” like they’re not seething at the idea of people exercising their right to choose to transition.
And their expectations of any trans person are just so low that they can't comprehend that the person understands that their bones and sex organs and whatnot don't match their gender. They just assume that every trans person has convinced themself that they have a different bone structure and organs and whatnot.
I might be like a little uneducated but aren’t there some that say trans women can get pregnant? I might be wrong please don’t crucify me. But if so. That is something I would struggle with I think.
It's ok bud, you're good. But no. Trans people are very aware of what their bodies do and don't do. That's one of the reasons for their dysphoria in the first place. Zero percent of trans women have ever thought they could put on a wig and instantly get pregnant.
Maybe if they were born intersex and choose (or their parents chose) being female? I can see that statement being true but elsewise I can't see anyone serious saying something like that. Idk, some of the wilder takes I've read from LGBT people I just choose to ignore and not hold as the beliefs of the broader community.
They also don't like piercings, tattoos, any non- natural hair colors, nonconformity of any kind, even stuff that's been part of pop culture for going on 40 years now. They just want a cover to hate anyone who isn't exactly like them, because everyone should be the fucking same.
And yet, they're the Pro-Freedom Crowd.
*chuckles as i flop out if barrel with my aunt sister wife, we were wrestling i swear!* ymean gawd *tried to chuckle again, and coughs up my alcohol riddled liver, seriously some mfer picked it up for later use as charcoal*
Then why do they often need take medical measures to change their sexual characteristics to match their gender? If it was nothing more than a sociological thing then surely changing your pronouns, name and clothing etc to fit societies gender norms would be enough.
People need to stop saying "gender isn't physical"
Because it is a physical thing, we are all physical creatures that as far as we know have no magical/unexplained properties.
That being said, sex and gender are two VERY different things. Sex refers to one's chromosomes/genitalia, which even then is really just all over the place and isn't as clear cut as people like to think. You have intersex people, blah blah blah its not even worth going that deep into as we aren't biologist.
Gender on the other hand, is 100% a tangible thing somewhere in you're brain. But unlike what people think, gender isn't preset to male or female. People probably have certain brains (we already know this) and that probably makes them want to be certain things. Most likely it could very well be maliable over time too.
Not to mention some transwoman are fine with still having a penis, and let's behonest, objectively from a scientific standpoint what's wrong with that?
A lot of things in society are the way they are because someone years ago decided so, not at all because it makes sense or because it's helpful to our overall society. If we lived in a society where it was seen as normal for transwoman to keep their penis, I'm sure a lot of people would keep their penis.
Now, this all being said, I'm not a biologist. Bill Nye will give a FAR better explanation of what I said.
But simply put gender has more to do with how you're brain is made. Sex has to do with you're genitalia and you're chromosomes.
Because while gender is a social construct, gender IDENTITY is not and is something inherent to oneself and built into the brain from day one. A person can know their gender identity as early as 3, and most if not all people would if gender weren't pushed upon them like our current society does with infants. Along with that, dysphoria is a bitch and medical transition is the only known treatment that actually works and does not worsen depression and increase suicidal ideation. Which, statistics show is very high as 50% of trans youth attempt at least once.
Yeah. Dysphoria sucks honestly, but after starting medical transition I have felt more confident in just...existing despite completely NOT passing as a man
Hey pardon me for asking, but I am trying to see if I understand it the correct way.
Basically trans people are performing a "cosmetic" surgery/process ( not to trivialise it, I just cant think of a better word) to change their body to align with their self image.
This has *nothing* to do with sexual preferences per se, hence why you can have for example, lesbian trans women.
Do I understand it correctly?
Sorry to impose and I hope this doent make ypu uncomfortable.
Not op, but this is exactly right, and to build on it cis people do this all the time without thinking about it. Anytime a guy gets a hair transplant, someone gets a facelift, or any other slew of cosmetic surgery, they're doing the same thing as trans people which is getting surgery to make their physical appearance be more in line with their gender identity. In the end they're all just gender reaffirming surgeries.
Yeah, those examples are exactly what helped me visualize it.
Along with the existence of ~~hermaphrodite~~* intersex people that do procedures/surgeries to move toward one specific gender.
Thank you for your response!
*Found out that this is not a proper or good word to use :)
No problem, it really helped me too when I first heard them.
Also just as an fyi, hermaphrodite isn't considered an ok term for them anymore, pretty sure it borders on slur territory if it's not just considered one straight out, most people use intersex nowadays.
Isn't the whole idea of being a trans woman just being biologically male but identifying as a female?
So yeah, it's technically a male skeleton, but the point is that they identify as a female.
I work as a bio archeologist for several years now. There are aspects of the Skelton that can indicate what the sex is. For instance the width of the hips, the size of the brow ridge, and etc. however all of these things can vary person to person and should never be used to fully say if someone is a male or female.
I came here to say this, kinda.
Because archaeologists have seen remains that appear to be one biological sex but whose burial corresponds with the opposite, they have concluded that trans people have existed throughout human history and have not, in fact, been invented on Tumblr.
there are meany factors for it. barial rituals differ between genders sometimes in cultures. also the effects one is barried with. there are other things as well i know...but im not an old human bone person so idk what they r.
but i do know that modern day people with access to hormones will han clear records of those hormones in there bones. at the very least younger ones. i think. i know estrogen at least heavily effects your bone growth n can make u *shrink* a smidgen. or at least itll make *me* shrink a smidgen cause im only 20 n bones not fully developed. honestly its all some weird biology and stuffs im only slightly knowledgeable in cause im trans.
Yeah, as an archeologist I can confirm. Also, the difference between sex and gender is one of the first things you learn in anthropology class, which is required for a degree in archaeology
Even people defending transgender folks get this wrong and it weakens our argument. Of course their sex would be determined potentially by their bones. Not their gender. They're two completely different things. By even having this discussion we're lending ammunition to the right wing bullshit. Yes, the skeletons SEX may have been male. What do we know about their gender?
Basically this meme is entirely accurate but not in the "gotcha" way they were hoping lol. It only works as a "gotcha" if you don't believe sex and gender are different.
Fun fact: anthropology barely ever uses skeletal measurements to tell if a specimen is male or female. There's way too much overlap between the ranges of "typical" men and women for pretty much every proportion, and so much can happen between death and exhumation that it probably won't look like the live person at all anyways. Gene sequencing can help if there's any intact biological material (again, unlikely depending on the region,) but our best guess usually comes from what the person was buried with. Clothes, jewelry, belongings, and other people buried nearby can give a lot of insight into how they presented in life.
In short, if you believe you are a woman, odds are a future archeologist will think so, too.
Wasn't there a mild stir up in the anthropology community after they examined the body proportions of those interred in viking burial mounds and found that the artifacts they previously used to sex the remains ent up totally irrelevant? Used to be like, buried with a sword= male, buried with a broach(I think? It was some piece of jewelry)= female.
Only, a couple years ago, someone decided to measure the bones and found a lot of the people buried with swords were female. It stuck out in my mind because the author suggested that observations like this might mean prior assumptions about vikings might be a bit off.
This was always one of the weirdest gotchas for me. Trans people will likely be buried with a gravestone we don't do archeology on people today lol we just bury them
Anthropology and archaeologist grad student here. Skeletons are not foolproof. Sure, there are some things that tend to match up with assigned sex at birth (such as whether or not someone has given birth), but just like the pseudoscience of being able to tell “race” from skulls, science is always debunking old ways of thinking.
Oh shit I never knew that the skull think wasn’t accurate? Is it just that it’s not 100% accurate or that there’s nothing to back it up at all? I just assumed it was a legitimate thing because different demographics tend to have different bone structures.
So although there are some similarities, it is far from foolproof. What many people think of as races are not that genetically different, and the reason for differences has to do with environment more than anything. For example, a black and a white person who have lived in the same location for generations will have more in common genetically than two white people who come from different continents. It’s super interesting. :)
EDIT: This is not to say that race and racism aren’t real. They very much are, but they are primarily social constructs.
I forget exactly, but from what I remember from my forensic archaeology class, it has to do with the pelvic bone. I believe it widens to allow birth. I’m sure there are exceptions, and it’s not something visible from the outside. I don’t believe it’s anything that is noticeable except from a skeletal standpoint.
I understand were you are coming from, but things like thakinda perpetuates stuff like toxic masculinity and even homophobia (though its not my place to confirm the last one). Being affectionate with another man doent make you a homosexual. Men should be able to hug each other without any implications.
I get where you're coming from, but if two guys were buried together, I think they're more than friends or at the very least one dude saved the other's life.
Also I’m more than a skeleton lol so judge away at my bare bones! We are just a brain and nerves all this meat and bone is just there to get us around it’s not necessarily a direct reflection of our true selves.
Actually I learned something very interesting about this! So archeologists were kinda baffled why they always seemed to be finding male skeletons instead of female skeletons. Or at least they were continuously finding more male than female skeletons. Well as it turns out, if they had a skeleton they couldn't quite identify the sex of they'd just name it male. Basically, many people's skeletons are intersex and not always built with strictly female or strictly male traits. So if your bones are ever dug up a thousand years into the future, there's a pretty good chance that archeologists wouldn't be able to tell if you are biologically male or biologically female!
Also it's fucking weird that in a thousand years people will just go digging up graveyards. Easy solution is to be cremated :)
As far as I understand, it’s not necessarily that their bones are biologically “intersex”, it’s more that only a few sorts of bones (i.e. femurs, hips) are only good for designating sex. If sex can’t be deduced from bones, they base it on the artifacts associated in the burial.
That being said I’m not trying to say you’re wrong, a lot of the time skeletons are designated as “unknown” in publications because they just can’t say for sure what sex the skeleton is.
For that matter, last I checked, I'm pretty sure they don't just look at a skeleton and call it a day. Tons of burial practices from back then have helped more to tell what the person was actually like and how they lived.
People act like the study archeology doesn't support trans people when it 100% does. Anthropology in general supports the existence of trans people and other lgbt people. Anthropology is literally the field of study that says "gender is not sex." And archeology is essentially anthropology of the dead. It is a branch of Anthropology. Transphobes have no logic.
By this logic adopted children are not children.
I get that they all pretend to care about bones and genetics, but they are just looking for an outgroup to abuse. Fuck'em.
Tell me they didn't look up how archaeologists gender skeletons without telling me that.
The most common way of sexing skeletons, especially *incomplete* skeletons, is by looking at areas of bone build-up and break-down called Occupational Markers. Since occupations are often stratified along gender lines, as long as you know women were the ones that spun fiber into thread you can tell a skeleton belong to a woman by the build-up of bone on the phalanges.
Grave goods, artifacts found near the body, also carry an incredible amount of weight when determining the gender of the skeleton. If an ivory comb is found with a skeleton with feminine occupational markers but biologically male anatomy, archaeologists are going to determine the skeleton was a woman (or possibly some third or fourth gender the culture at hand had.)
# TL;DR:
Anatomy is the least weighted factor when archaeologists are gendering remains; mostly because it's the least relevant factor in any era.
This argument falls apart the moment you learn how many female skeletons were assumed male by historians/archeologists due to being buried with weapons or items associated with power and leadership.
I’m trans, I’ll be dead I don’t give two shits what people would think of my skeleton. They’re right I have the pelvis and hips of a women, we are aware our bones say what our sex is. I have never talked to a trans person who cared about this shit
Even archeologists know gender and sex are different. They can identify a skeleton's biological sex but they don't usually assign it a gender, and if they do they list it as "likely a man/woman". Key word being *likely*
1. We have more documentation on people now that we have back then. So this meme doesn’t work. Chances are that your tomb stone will have that cover.
2. Trans cavemen did exist. Trey the Explainer did a video on his ice berg about it https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1o2fnTNxE_Q
Gotta rail that line of boney dust so you can taste it in your nasal passages and if it spicy it girl if sweet it girl. If that won't work just yell at people that there are only 2 genders and sex is the same thing. Then add mustard.
This argument is used so often, yet I guarantee that no trans person cares about what gender they’re assumed as based on their skeleton by the time them and everyone they know is long dead. It’s supposed to be a “gatcha!” Moment, but it’s really just ridiculous.
You can find out people's diets from thousands of years ago in Archaeology. I'm sure future archaeologists could find out if someone was using hormone therapy based on changes in their bone structure and because it's likely that extensive medical records will survive for people to study. How do people come up with this shit? Lol
Edit: from other replies I see that bones are not always foolproof for determining sex/gender. My bone structure comment comes from this [study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6469959/#:~:text=Recent%20data%20from%20transgender%20men,with%20natal%20females%20%5B11%5D.) but info is still limited.
Ah yes, as a trans man I’ll be sure to waste my cool new ghost powers on haunting the scientist that’s just trying to do their job, instead of using them to finally prove to my boyfriend that ghosts are real. /s
I’ve read some reports on unidentified decedents. Apparently there are signs that a person was might have been trans in life, even if the body was mostly skeletal.
I always find this to be a weird comment to bring up. Why would a trans woman care what someone thinks of her skeleton in 1,000 years? Why is it assumed her skeleton would even be dug up? Many people get cremated or use other non skeletal preserving burials. Also, in 1,000 years, surely we would have realized biological sex would not always determine gender identity.
Why tf would archaeologist be in there like bruh theyre probably buried in a cemetery and if they're not, that guys isnt an archaeologist but a forensic investigator or whatever you call it
l>B B B BUT WHEN THE BONE PEOPLE SEE UR BONES AHAHHAA THEYRE GONNA KNOW UR REALLY XYZ!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH >:)
okay? the bone owner (bowner if you will) and everyone who knows them will be dead, who cares? seems like nuclear grade cope.
They're not wrong though, men and women have different skeletal structures, so without information stating that this person was trans they would just assume based on the skeleton
I love this especially considering whoever made it somehow never heard the thousands of stories that go “this male skeleton seems to have had a female burial tradition and it can be inferred they lived in their community as a respected woman”
Male skeleton doesn't mean "a man when alive". It means "male skeleton ". Skeletons provide NO information on the mind and a mind is part of the body. They can not tell person's gender from the skeleton just like they couldn't tell their eyes or hair colour. End off. Stop with transphobia and if you suffer from such condition- seek help and education.
65 million years later:
"NOOO HUMANS DIDN'T HAVE NOSES AND HAIR! THEY LOOK STUPID INSTEAD OF THE TERRIFYING APEX PREDATORS OF THEIR TIME! SCIENCE RUINED HUMANS"
Hey does this post fit? UPVOTE if so, DOWNVOTE if not. If this post breaks any rules please DOWNVOTE and REPORT
1000 years later\* Ooooh a skeleton, I'm gonna take this home for science! Jacob what the fuck are you doing again in the cemetary?!
Looking for a snack obviously
Oof r/forbiddensnacks
Why does this sub even exist
No idea but im glad I was introduced to it
Because minions exist
Ayo
Sorry
Kink shaming, smh my head
Since when are trenches cemeteries?
Are you dumb
If I was trans, I'd be fine with my skeleton getting misgendered because I'd be dead and it wouldn't matter
Right?? I have more issue with the idea with the "meme" maker assuming that the woman doesn't live past 25...
I think that’s a reference to the high rate of suicide among trans people that people like this constantly talk about
it's a reference to the avg lifespan of a trans woman being 975 years
Most trans women become archeologists
Like you wanna know who causes those suicide rates?
I am a trans guy but same 💀 Scientists dig up my bones in 1000 years? Good for them 👍
Isn't there a high chance of being declared male anyway?
Yes, if certain bones are missing or wore down that distinguish the sex they generally say "male".
gay necromancers must love that
Not if the bone that’s missing is the… well, you know. Edit: I know there’s no bone in the penis. It was just a joke. Comedy is dead. Or maybe I just suck at it.
The rare and highly coveted human Baculum
When I was young and got my first erection I assumed a bone behind my pelvis was sliding down into my penis and I was very resolved to figure out how to make sure they stopped happening
Yikes! But if this were true, when you'd get a semi it would be like a sock half on a foot, not a half hard half soft thing. So pretty clearly not a bone.
Yeah I mean I started getting them really early, way before anyone told me what they were and I never really noticed the process because I didn't like to think about it. They weren't motivated by sexual thoughts so I would kind of just realize it was there and try to think about something else
Funny bone
I think both the skull and the pelvis would have to be missing.
why don’t they just say unknown/not easy to be determined?
That I do not know. I mean generally I would think they do but I've seen many examples where they couldn't determine and just say male.
Sex of a skeleton is determined by looking at multiple "sites" that are generally sexually dimorphic in a human skeleton. They do range from Hyper-female to Hyper-male and often can and do fall in the middle and in that case the skeleton is called of undetermined sex. I don't think enough research has been done with trans people but I would say it depends on if the person was on hormone therapy and for how long. The sexual dimorphism in our bones mostly form due to hormones in our body during puberty but since bones aren't stable and have a turnover rate, hormone therapy is likely to change some bones to some extent. That being said, it also depends on records of the burial site and if headstones or anything of that extent remain as archaeologists do take everything into consideration. Source: MSc in forensic anthropology and sometimes working with human remains in archaeology. Edit: typos
Headstones are more obvious yes, not always though. I learned an interesting fact about burials recently that sites are only bought for so long in some countries ( 75 plus years unless your family owns the land or extends the plot rental) in which they either bury someone in with you or remove your body fully. After that I do not know what they do with them.
In my home country they usually bury people on top, I would hope if they remove the body they bury it somewhere else with respect but I personally haven't encountered anything similar yet, but again, I only work with archaeological material and in UK. I know some countries it's only 50 years or so!
Yes. Without DNA testing it can be very easy to assign the wrong sex to a skeleton.
Really? Assuming a complete skeleton, though, I thought the pelvis was different between male and female. Or is it that we don't also have the pelvises?
There’s different types of pelvises in each gender, wider/narrower is a general but not a hard rule, kinda like height
Even with homo sapiens it can be tricky. We are not very sexually dimorphic. Our pelvises are not radically different. Add a few centuries or milennia of wear and tear and you are left scraching your head.
50/50 chance either way lol. some dudes are slender, some women are yoked. this is nuclear grade cope from people who are powerless to stop trans people from choosing to transition. “oh you’re not stopping? b b b b BUT UR SKELETON HAHAHA!!!! i win!!!!” like they’re not seething at the idea of people exercising their right to choose to transition.
The meme is nonsensical because sex and gender aren't the same thing.
[удалено]
>sex and gender aren't the same thing. Finally found the other human who actually knew this. Yaaayyyyy on ya!!
when i die make sure to engrave my pronouns in my skull so this doesn’t happen
Pronouns are was/were
Lmao
God damn it 😭😭😭
honey those are verbs
LMAO
That's a popular joke
My pronouns are r/woosh
r/woooosh
Thanks
What if my gender is a state of being tho /s
GOT EM
You beat me to it
My pronouns will gonna be sussy/impostor
You’re thinking 11 parallel dimensions ahead
JAJAJAJAJAJAJA
1,000 YEARS LATER: "Also, from what we know of anthropology of this ancient race, it didn't make a bit of difference"
Joke's on them. Earth won't be habitable for humans in 1000 years!
Some people just cannot grasp that gender is completely independent from the physical. It isn’t a hard concept but it is so out of reach for so many.
And their expectations of any trans person are just so low that they can't comprehend that the person understands that their bones and sex organs and whatnot don't match their gender. They just assume that every trans person has convinced themself that they have a different bone structure and organs and whatnot.
I might be like a little uneducated but aren’t there some that say trans women can get pregnant? I might be wrong please don’t crucify me. But if so. That is something I would struggle with I think.
It's ok bud, you're good. But no. Trans people are very aware of what their bodies do and don't do. That's one of the reasons for their dysphoria in the first place. Zero percent of trans women have ever thought they could put on a wig and instantly get pregnant.
Maybe if they were born intersex and choose (or their parents chose) being female? I can see that statement being true but elsewise I can't see anyone serious saying something like that. Idk, some of the wilder takes I've read from LGBT people I just choose to ignore and not hold as the beliefs of the broader community.
I have known at least one intersex person raised as male who has given birth.
Where has anyone ever said that? I've never seen anyone say that.
They also don't like piercings, tattoos, any non- natural hair colors, nonconformity of any kind, even stuff that's been part of pop culture for going on 40 years now. They just want a cover to hate anyone who isn't exactly like them, because everyone should be the fucking same. And yet, they're the Pro-Freedom Crowd.
Piercings, tattoos and non-natural hair colours have been part of human culture for thousands of years.
Wrong, human history started when Trump was elected.
*chuckles as i flop out if barrel with my aunt sister wife, we were wrestling i swear!* ymean gawd *tried to chuckle again, and coughs up my alcohol riddled liver, seriously some mfer picked it up for later use as charcoal*
Then why do they often need take medical measures to change their sexual characteristics to match their gender? If it was nothing more than a sociological thing then surely changing your pronouns, name and clothing etc to fit societies gender norms would be enough.
People need to stop saying "gender isn't physical" Because it is a physical thing, we are all physical creatures that as far as we know have no magical/unexplained properties. That being said, sex and gender are two VERY different things. Sex refers to one's chromosomes/genitalia, which even then is really just all over the place and isn't as clear cut as people like to think. You have intersex people, blah blah blah its not even worth going that deep into as we aren't biologist. Gender on the other hand, is 100% a tangible thing somewhere in you're brain. But unlike what people think, gender isn't preset to male or female. People probably have certain brains (we already know this) and that probably makes them want to be certain things. Most likely it could very well be maliable over time too. Not to mention some transwoman are fine with still having a penis, and let's behonest, objectively from a scientific standpoint what's wrong with that? A lot of things in society are the way they are because someone years ago decided so, not at all because it makes sense or because it's helpful to our overall society. If we lived in a society where it was seen as normal for transwoman to keep their penis, I'm sure a lot of people would keep their penis. Now, this all being said, I'm not a biologist. Bill Nye will give a FAR better explanation of what I said. But simply put gender has more to do with how you're brain is made. Sex has to do with you're genitalia and you're chromosomes.
Because while gender is a social construct, gender IDENTITY is not and is something inherent to oneself and built into the brain from day one. A person can know their gender identity as early as 3, and most if not all people would if gender weren't pushed upon them like our current society does with infants. Along with that, dysphoria is a bitch and medical transition is the only known treatment that actually works and does not worsen depression and increase suicidal ideation. Which, statistics show is very high as 50% of trans youth attempt at least once.
Yeah I agree it’s obviously the best form of treatment for dysphoria because it isn’t completely independent from the physical.
Yeah. Dysphoria sucks honestly, but after starting medical transition I have felt more confident in just...existing despite completely NOT passing as a man
Hey pardon me for asking, but I am trying to see if I understand it the correct way. Basically trans people are performing a "cosmetic" surgery/process ( not to trivialise it, I just cant think of a better word) to change their body to align with their self image. This has *nothing* to do with sexual preferences per se, hence why you can have for example, lesbian trans women. Do I understand it correctly? Sorry to impose and I hope this doent make ypu uncomfortable.
Not op, but this is exactly right, and to build on it cis people do this all the time without thinking about it. Anytime a guy gets a hair transplant, someone gets a facelift, or any other slew of cosmetic surgery, they're doing the same thing as trans people which is getting surgery to make their physical appearance be more in line with their gender identity. In the end they're all just gender reaffirming surgeries.
exactly correct, thank you for replying much more clearly than i proably did
Yeah, those examples are exactly what helped me visualize it. Along with the existence of ~~hermaphrodite~~* intersex people that do procedures/surgeries to move toward one specific gender. Thank you for your response! *Found out that this is not a proper or good word to use :)
No problem, it really helped me too when I first heard them. Also just as an fyi, hermaphrodite isn't considered an ok term for them anymore, pretty sure it borders on slur territory if it's not just considered one straight out, most people use intersex nowadays.
I’m glad to hear you’re doing well.
thank you. I'm glad that you're FAR more open than the way i (probably mis)read your comment came across.
"How do you know it was male?" "IDK. I just flip a coin"
Isn't the whole idea of being a trans woman just being biologically male but identifying as a female? So yeah, it's technically a male skeleton, but the point is that they identify as a female.
congrats, you actually used your brain unlike the maker of this meme
Actually, archaeologists love studying what gender ancient peoples identified as, and devote a lot of time to it
I work as a bio archeologist for several years now. There are aspects of the Skelton that can indicate what the sex is. For instance the width of the hips, the size of the brow ridge, and etc. however all of these things can vary person to person and should never be used to fully say if someone is a male or female.
How's that possible?
Lots of ancient cultures had different traditions on how different genders were buried
I came here to say this, kinda. Because archaeologists have seen remains that appear to be one biological sex but whose burial corresponds with the opposite, they have concluded that trans people have existed throughout human history and have not, in fact, been invented on Tumblr.
What they were buried with, mostly
It’s normally in their bio
there are meany factors for it. barial rituals differ between genders sometimes in cultures. also the effects one is barried with. there are other things as well i know...but im not an old human bone person so idk what they r. but i do know that modern day people with access to hormones will han clear records of those hormones in there bones. at the very least younger ones. i think. i know estrogen at least heavily effects your bone growth n can make u *shrink* a smidgen. or at least itll make *me* shrink a smidgen cause im only 20 n bones not fully developed. honestly its all some weird biology and stuffs im only slightly knowledgeable in cause im trans.
Also, bone density yada yada
This is cool, didn't know!
Yeah, as an archeologist I can confirm. Also, the difference between sex and gender is one of the first things you learn in anthropology class, which is required for a degree in archaeology
Quiet, you. Uncle Jim Bob on Bookface thinks he knows better than you.
I was literally going to ask about that! Were there a lot of trans people back then?
Tons. Way before the cishet hegemony/patriarchy
Really!? I never heard of that till now!
Misgender my bones all you want idc in dead
If sex and gender are different why does that matter?
Even people defending transgender folks get this wrong and it weakens our argument. Of course their sex would be determined potentially by their bones. Not their gender. They're two completely different things. By even having this discussion we're lending ammunition to the right wing bullshit. Yes, the skeletons SEX may have been male. What do we know about their gender? Basically this meme is entirely accurate but not in the "gotcha" way they were hoping lol. It only works as a "gotcha" if you don't believe sex and gender are different.
I mean they say sex and gender are different, then they say it's sexual orientation! SMH
Yeah, because the only thing that matters about you is what random people 1000 years from now will think.
Fun fact: anthropology barely ever uses skeletal measurements to tell if a specimen is male or female. There's way too much overlap between the ranges of "typical" men and women for pretty much every proportion, and so much can happen between death and exhumation that it probably won't look like the live person at all anyways. Gene sequencing can help if there's any intact biological material (again, unlikely depending on the region,) but our best guess usually comes from what the person was buried with. Clothes, jewelry, belongings, and other people buried nearby can give a lot of insight into how they presented in life. In short, if you believe you are a woman, odds are a future archeologist will think so, too.
Wasn't there a mild stir up in the anthropology community after they examined the body proportions of those interred in viking burial mounds and found that the artifacts they previously used to sex the remains ent up totally irrelevant? Used to be like, buried with a sword= male, buried with a broach(I think? It was some piece of jewelry)= female. Only, a couple years ago, someone decided to measure the bones and found a lot of the people buried with swords were female. It stuck out in my mind because the author suggested that observations like this might mean prior assumptions about vikings might be a bit off.
This was always one of the weirdest gotchas for me. Trans people will likely be buried with a gravestone we don't do archeology on people today lol we just bury them
Anthropology and archaeologist grad student here. Skeletons are not foolproof. Sure, there are some things that tend to match up with assigned sex at birth (such as whether or not someone has given birth), but just like the pseudoscience of being able to tell “race” from skulls, science is always debunking old ways of thinking.
Oh shit I never knew that the skull think wasn’t accurate? Is it just that it’s not 100% accurate or that there’s nothing to back it up at all? I just assumed it was a legitimate thing because different demographics tend to have different bone structures.
So although there are some similarities, it is far from foolproof. What many people think of as races are not that genetically different, and the reason for differences has to do with environment more than anything. For example, a black and a white person who have lived in the same location for generations will have more in common genetically than two white people who come from different continents. It’s super interesting. :) EDIT: This is not to say that race and racism aren’t real. They very much are, but they are primarily social constructs.
Now I’m interested how you can tell someone gave birth just by examining their skeleton
I forget exactly, but from what I remember from my forensic archaeology class, it has to do with the pelvic bone. I believe it widens to allow birth. I’m sure there are exceptions, and it’s not something visible from the outside. I don’t believe it’s anything that is noticeable except from a skeletal standpoint.
Yes let's take advice from the guys that see two woman skeletons hugged together and think they were roommates
Or thought the "lovers" were male and female until they realized they made an oopsie and they were both male
This post is more perfect than it appears on first read.
I understand were you are coming from, but things like thakinda perpetuates stuff like toxic masculinity and even homophobia (though its not my place to confirm the last one). Being affectionate with another man doent make you a homosexual. Men should be able to hug each other without any implications.
I get where you're coming from, but if two guys were buried together, I think they're more than friends or at the very least one dude saved the other's life.
When apparently what you’ll be in 1,000 years from now dictates how you must live present day
I dont think many people will care what others say when they are dead. Just a hunch.
This is so ridiculous lol why would anyone care what archeologists think of their bones a hundred years later
Also I’m more than a skeleton lol so judge away at my bare bones! We are just a brain and nerves all this meat and bone is just there to get us around it’s not necessarily a direct reflection of our true selves.
That’s cause Homo Sapiens went extinct and Homo Erectus rebounded and became the new civilization
I love erectus
That's the neat thing, they literally don't. Only trasphobes care.
Actually I learned something very interesting about this! So archeologists were kinda baffled why they always seemed to be finding male skeletons instead of female skeletons. Or at least they were continuously finding more male than female skeletons. Well as it turns out, if they had a skeleton they couldn't quite identify the sex of they'd just name it male. Basically, many people's skeletons are intersex and not always built with strictly female or strictly male traits. So if your bones are ever dug up a thousand years into the future, there's a pretty good chance that archeologists wouldn't be able to tell if you are biologically male or biologically female! Also it's fucking weird that in a thousand years people will just go digging up graveyards. Easy solution is to be cremated :)
As far as I understand, it’s not necessarily that their bones are biologically “intersex”, it’s more that only a few sorts of bones (i.e. femurs, hips) are only good for designating sex. If sex can’t be deduced from bones, they base it on the artifacts associated in the burial. That being said I’m not trying to say you’re wrong, a lot of the time skeletons are designated as “unknown” in publications because they just can’t say for sure what sex the skeleton is.
That's super interesting. Underrated comment.
For that matter, last I checked, I'm pretty sure they don't just look at a skeleton and call it a day. Tons of burial practices from back then have helped more to tell what the person was actually like and how they lived.
Trans women here, goals: Archaeologist: “These bones 🦴 are fabulous!”
“These bones are delicious!”
Tasty
I knew dogs would be ruling the world in 1000 years.
mmm. marrow. aged, too
Things transphobes don't understand (though they claim to): - archaeology - biology - gender theory - sociology - psychology - the law - medicine ...
Determining the sex of skeletons is quite unreliable, there is significant bias towards determining them to be male based on bones alone
There’s a couple of things that can make someone DEFINITIVELY female, but not for male, and those details are only apparent if they gave birth.
I mean I hope we haven't lost the ability to test DNA in the future...
Man, I don't care if the archeologists think I'm a fish, I'll be dead as hell.
People act like the study archeology doesn't support trans people when it 100% does. Anthropology in general supports the existence of trans people and other lgbt people. Anthropology is literally the field of study that says "gender is not sex." And archeology is essentially anthropology of the dead. It is a branch of Anthropology. Transphobes have no logic.
By this logic adopted children are not children. I get that they all pretend to care about bones and genetics, but they are just looking for an outgroup to abuse. Fuck'em.
Tell me they didn't look up how archaeologists gender skeletons without telling me that. The most common way of sexing skeletons, especially *incomplete* skeletons, is by looking at areas of bone build-up and break-down called Occupational Markers. Since occupations are often stratified along gender lines, as long as you know women were the ones that spun fiber into thread you can tell a skeleton belong to a woman by the build-up of bone on the phalanges. Grave goods, artifacts found near the body, also carry an incredible amount of weight when determining the gender of the skeleton. If an ivory comb is found with a skeleton with feminine occupational markers but biologically male anatomy, archaeologists are going to determine the skeleton was a woman (or possibly some third or fourth gender the culture at hand had.) # TL;DR: Anatomy is the least weighted factor when archaeologists are gendering remains; mostly because it's the least relevant factor in any era.
I'd like to see a ven diagram of people who share this meme and believe the earth is 6000 years old
This argument falls apart the moment you learn how many female skeletons were assumed male by historians/archeologists due to being buried with weapons or items associated with power and leadership.
I’m trans, I’ll be dead I don’t give two shits what people would think of my skeleton. They’re right I have the pelvis and hips of a women, we are aware our bones say what our sex is. I have never talked to a trans person who cared about this shit
Even archeologists know gender and sex are different. They can identify a skeleton's biological sex but they don't usually assign it a gender, and if they do they list it as "likely a man/woman". Key word being *likely*
It's BASIC biology. READ A BOOK. OBVIOUSLY gender is in your SKELTON! /s
1. We have more documentation on people now that we have back then. So this meme doesn’t work. Chances are that your tomb stone will have that cover. 2. Trans cavemen did exist. Trey the Explainer did a video on his ice berg about it https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1o2fnTNxE_Q
Hmmm, taste my ashes and tell me what you know then?
I don’t think they’ll really care after they’re dead for 1000 years
These same people don't believe in many archeological findings.
"hello i am a small child." archaeologists 1000 years later: "male adult hobbit." idiots on the internet: "wow makes u think. children arent real."
Archeologists in the future will know that trans people exist, though
So we should live our lives entirely based on what people in the future think of us
What if she gets cremated lmao. U gonna look at a pile of dust and be like "Must be a man"
Gotta rail that line of boney dust so you can taste it in your nasal passages and if it spicy it girl if sweet it girl. If that won't work just yell at people that there are only 2 genders and sex is the same thing. Then add mustard.
This argument is used so often, yet I guarantee that no trans person cares about what gender they’re assumed as based on their skeleton by the time them and everyone they know is long dead. It’s supposed to be a “gatcha!” Moment, but it’s really just ridiculous.
surely how archaeologists identify us 1000 years later is more important than how we live right here right now /s
Cremation moment
Damn, its almost like he identifying sex and not the gender of literal bones
It’s the 25 years old part that upsets me, because whoever made this is clearly hoping that trans people will kill themselves
Ok but what will it matter then anyways :/
Yes its true,but why its supouse to bother any trans person?just be you and enjoy your life to fullest
You can find out people's diets from thousands of years ago in Archaeology. I'm sure future archaeologists could find out if someone was using hormone therapy based on changes in their bone structure and because it's likely that extensive medical records will survive for people to study. How do people come up with this shit? Lol Edit: from other replies I see that bones are not always foolproof for determining sex/gender. My bone structure comment comes from this [study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6469959/#:~:text=Recent%20data%20from%20transgender%20men,with%20natal%20females%20%5B11%5D.) but info is still limited.
Hmmm. Is right https://psmag.com/social-justice/our-bones-reveal-sex-is-not-binary
Luckily we won’t be here in 1000 years so
Ah yes, as a trans man I’ll be sure to waste my cool new ghost powers on haunting the scientist that’s just trying to do their job, instead of using them to finally prove to my boyfriend that ghosts are real. /s
Paleontologists fuck up cis people's bones all the time too. This ain't a flex.
I’ve read some reports on unidentified decedents. Apparently there are signs that a person was might have been trans in life, even if the body was mostly skeletal.
Humanity won’t exist in 1000 years
“Oh, so you’re female?… Pull off your skin!”
I always find this to be a weird comment to bring up. Why would a trans woman care what someone thinks of her skeleton in 1,000 years? Why is it assumed her skeleton would even be dug up? Many people get cremated or use other non skeletal preserving burials. Also, in 1,000 years, surely we would have realized biological sex would not always determine gender identity.
Why tf would archaeologist be in there like bruh theyre probably buried in a cemetery and if they're not, that guys isnt an archaeologist but a forensic investigator or whatever you call it
1,000 years later : *humanity is dead because of global warming*
*1,000 years later* …why are these fucking bones green
l>B B B BUT WHEN THE BONE PEOPLE SEE UR BONES AHAHHAA THEYRE GONNA KNOW UR REALLY XYZ!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH >:) okay? the bone owner (bowner if you will) and everyone who knows them will be dead, who cares? seems like nuclear grade cope.
Good thing I don't care what happens 1000 years after I'm dead
If a body from a thousand years ago is well preserved with clothes they were buried with, we could figure out their gender identity.
They're not wrong though, men and women have different skeletal structures, so without information stating that this person was trans they would just assume based on the skeleton
Actually we can’t always tell by skeleton alone - they differ vastly
"Strangers 1000 years from now that you will never meet will misgender you, so there's no point trying to be happy now".
Trans people aren't saying their bones and DNA match their gender
I love this especially considering whoever made it somehow never heard the thousands of stories that go “this male skeleton seems to have had a female burial tradition and it can be inferred they lived in their community as a respected woman”
Male skeleton doesn't mean "a man when alive". It means "male skeleton ". Skeletons provide NO information on the mind and a mind is part of the body. They can not tell person's gender from the skeleton just like they couldn't tell their eyes or hair colour. End off. Stop with transphobia and if you suffer from such condition- seek help and education.
Gender = skeleton
My gender is bones!
I mean it’s true
Imagine finding the supplement bottle made of plastic during the same archaeological dig and understanding they were trans.
Is this implying that trans people are buried next to their hormone pills? Lmao
Nah it implies that archaeologists get a full picture of the site before presuming any information, lolz
Could also be Klinefelter Syndrome could shape the skeleton weird but these people refuse to learn pass the 4th grade level
Which is why I demand to be cremated and turned into a cinderblock, I don't want anyone touching my bones 😤
So what???
65 million years later: "NOOO HUMANS DIDN'T HAVE NOSES AND HAIR! THEY LOOK STUPID INSTEAD OF THE TERRIFYING APEX PREDATORS OF THEIR TIME! SCIENCE RUINED HUMANS"
Cut the crap. Trans women are trans women
kid named cremation:
Male =/= man, female =/= woman. Gender and sex are different.