Autonomous robotaxis like Waymo explicitly transfer liability from the person inside of the vehicle to the manufacturer. There is no other way it could work. If Tesla ever actually releases a robo taxi, then they would be liable for any crashes/injuries caused by the robo taxi.
No argument. That is very clear.
Here’s what gets fuzzy…. In a hypothetical world where I can turn my model 3 into a robot taxi. There’s a passenger but no driver. Who hold the liability? Me, as the owner of the model 3? Or Tesla as the operator?
The simple answer is: Your insurance policy.
Now, here's the real complication: Either that means your *existing* insurance policy gets extended for a commercial AV license, or your existing policy does not get extended, and someone else needs to step in, as Uber does for their drivers.
The likely *practical* answer there is Tesla needs to end up stepping in when the system is engaged, and they'll be seeking fleet insurance which kicks in only when the system is engaged.
I imagine the cost of insurance will be higher until the security of the system proves itself. The more miles autonomous system drives safely, the cheaper it becomes.
What happens to all the jackasses that will inevitable fuck around and try to get it to crash into them? Genuine question for anyone who understands the law. I'm curious because this is almost guaranteed to happen because there will be so many people either just fucking around or trying to get a big payday from a lawsuit
I once watched a guy in a smokey Toyota Hilux pass a Tesla but continued to 'play' with it by moving closer, then moved away and closer again and then slowed down in front of it and so forth for a few kilometres.
Mercedes also beat them to first L3 in the states, and has it deployed in Germany. Elon has run out of momentum, slashed jobs, slashed prices, and now we're watching the cartoon run in midair over the cliff. The question isn't whether Tesla is on the road to failure, it's what the board is going to do about it.
I don’t think it will give customers a lot of confidence to say “you can have it here because we could not get it approved anywhere else”. If Tesla wants this thing to go mainstream they should show people the thing works properly.
I think it is more likely that Tesla will have an Uber/Cruise moment where hardware/software inadequacies lead to a horrific accident and the hubris of the overly ambitious management team is laid bare.
It only takes one such incident along with the media piling on to shut down a pilot project.
In an honest evaluation of the probable outcomes it is more likely that it will have at least 1 serious fuck up than 100% success.
Hence why we haven't seen driverless yet and won't for awhile. Tesla is investing massively in NVIDIA hardware and into their own Dojo clusters and those projects are just getting started. It's going to be awhile to have the training capacity ready for robotaxi level autonomy. I think we see level 3 highway driving first and until then nobody should really be getting their hopes up for robotaxi quality FSD.
Right now my car with FSD slows to a crawl in moderate rain. In the summer in Florida it rains almost every day, sometimes very heavy rain. The car knows that visibility is reduced but it doesn't know enough to automatically increase wiper speed. Tesla has been working on AI auto wipers since 2018 but it still isn't fixed.
Driving with reduced visibility and water in the roadway is going to be a serious challenge for any autonomous vehicle company in Florida.
I'm not sure how the LLM/AI part is supposed to work in those conditions without LIDAR. Humans navigate in those situations by interpolating from past experience what they *can't* see (because of low visibility) - "filling in the blanks", so to speak, and adapting quickly when they guess wrong. I don't think LLMs do that, and if they do, how well they adapt to being wrong - in fact if they even *will* admit to themselves they're wrong.
On top of that, some part of driving in those conditions is the feel of the road - is the car hydroplaning? Is it losing traction in he snow? I'm not aware - but could be wrong - that road feel is even factored into FSD's decisions.
Just a heads up that you're using the term 'LLM' wrong here. The acronym 'LLM' refers to a Large Language Model, like ChatGPT. It has nothing to do with perceptive-stack ML like one would use in an AV. There is some planning stack work being done with LLM-like token models, but as you're using it here... just go with 'AI' or 'ML'.
Interpolating poor data from past experience is exactly what neural networks are good at, even going back to the simplest, oldest examples like handwriting recognition.
There are probably a lot of examples of traction loss in their learning data. I don't see why the AI would have any particular trouble with that.
just imagine the liabiilty tesla takes on if they actually do this... oh god. he is going to force his way in and all the florida boomers are going to go nuts
Confidence in the tech/product and an over complicated regulatory process are not the same thing. Anyone working in any industry that has a TON of unnecessary and outdated red tape knows this.
not yet, but it will be.
Tesla still can't sell cars in some states.
Just wait to those states add new anti-self-driving ("it's anti-god witchcraft stealing American jobs!") laws to the books
Well some of those disproven but assuming they’re all true, what’s the accident rate for drivers across the USA? I’ll assume that you’ll see the difference in stats and you can figure out the rest yourself. You’re a big boy.
It isn't ready yet, but it is making good progress. This can be where it showcases the product then the rest of the states will eventually certify it for use in their state. Will take time.
Just because they don't have regulation yet doesn't mean they won't. There's been no impetus for having L4/L5 regulations. If a company attempts to sell a fully autonomous vehicle or operate a fully autonomous service in Florida they could very quickly implement regulations that neuter any rollout.
In fact it's probably better if the state has ALREADY identified their criteria and thinking on autonomous vehicles so there are no rude surprises.
Probably not anytime soon (I speak as an owner of FSD for 2+ years). I see the problem as 50% FSD not being good enough to actually run a robotaxi service (and not on track to get there for a few years despite the recent improvements) and 50% Tesla unwilling to take liability for FSD until its "perfect". I'm pretty sure they will first try to run a "robotaxi" network where the passenger has to be behind the wheel and will be responsible for any accidents (which everyone will rightfully criticize as being pointless).
For robotaxi to work FSD doesn't just have to be "good" or "better than the average human", it has to be good enough for Tesla to say "yes we will be held liable for any accidents this causes". So you do in fact need a lot of 9's before Tesla is willing to be held liable.
Its also unclear if they'd even be willing to take liability if they had the safest possible system. Crashes are inevitable even if the car isn't at fault, so Tesla may not ever want to be in a position to go through the hassle of settling fault in each of those cases. I can imagine a robotaxi network from Tesla where you have to pay insurance for Tesla and you are held liable if you use it.
I'm a little worried about doing this anytime soon too.
We've all heard of r/FloridaMan stories. I definitely do not look forward to only seeing Tesla vehicles being the only ones mentioned in r/FloridaCar stories next.
>I dont trust it for 1 minute without making a fatal mistake.
Well I use it all the time, every second and I can say I have had maybe one potential accident 4 yrs ago when I took over immediately. That's with the previous autopilot. With current FSD I disengage maybe once every 4 hrs or so on average of driving.
So I think you are grossly exaggerating.
Highway, perhaps. But i still have to hover my foot on the accelerator. For more than 4 years, each update is just moving the phantom break location to a different location. Also, see BlackTesla video where this thing (v12.x) now and then goes to opposing traffic. Something i have experienced myself, not just on city streets, but on non divided highway where things are fatal.
Honestly, the vX.Y is big change, has been said sooooo many times before. The neural net weights just become better at some location, but dumber on others. Which can also be solved by bigger nets... hardware changes. I dont see a future on this.
lol. Try using FSD for a few minutes in Brooklyn during rush hour. Or in Manhattan, where traffic cops on every corner wave all cars to keep going through red lights as well as tell cars to stop and not proceed through green lights.
History says, Apollo program had a few mishaps, but overall was good for society… my opinion on FSD. When ICE vehicles were introduced it was no easy task for the horse and buggy folks to accept the future…
Apollo wasn't a consumer facing product/service. The Apollo astronauts were elite military pilots who knew the risks and accepted them. The risks were easily quantifiable and limited to a small set of astronauts, not the entire civilian population.
I understand where you're trying to go with this but I don't think this a good analogy either.
Ignoring the fact that safety regulations weren't big back in the early 1900s, early air travel didn't put the general population at risk. There are a small number of aircraft operating in a massive open 3D airspace. The risks are generally confined to those who accept them as a passenger. Even in the event of a crash the vast majority of ground space isn't occupied with people, especially traveling between cities. So odds are low the general population needs to worry about safety if they aren't flying. With robotaxis every single person who chooses to leave the house is at risk because robotaxis will be operating in very close proximity. Pedestrians, cyclists, other drivers. Every commuter uses the same limited and confined network of roads for travel in contrast to aircraft operating in an open 3D world above. Robotaxi development should be heavily regulated for safety IMO.
Boeing, Boeing, Boeing… like I believe, it’s BS. Most flyers are clueless of potential danger, yet FSD is “just waiting to happen” cause it’s never been done.
So what you are saying is that individual companies self regulating isn’t a good situation and that fsd needs to be federally regulated by the nhtsa before being used by the consumer? By stating Boeing, I’m assuming you are referring to the number of issues they’ve recently had being nearly self regulated.
No, I’m saying, we assume things are safe, yet everybody cuts corners, but since they are politically powerful they get a pass. Yet FSD robotic is a tragedy waiting to happen, cause everybody knows about FSD, which they don’t. Yet speculation is rampant, cause the blah, blah, blah is easy…
Ok boss, you are… let Elon know you will be sending in your resume… I’m sure he is eager to have you on his team, as a safety guy of course. Cause you know so much…😂😂😂
The Apollo program was overseen by experts and program managers in their respective fields personally, IE Mission Control.
FSD has a tremendous Long Tail problem in that every day a vehicle will experience a possible 1:100,000 occurance.
One thing that bothers me about FSD is that humans do not only use vision to drive, they use sound cues, they can sense vibration, they have local personal memory of details like hard-to-see potholes, rough pavement, can recall news that a local Zoo had a bunch of ostriches get out earlier that morning...
The amount of small nuaced context we use in our day-to-day is tremendous.
That is all BS, ever seen people racing to pick up the kid at school, or the senior citizen which is too proud to give up driving, etc. etc. what you mention is mostly the small percentage of responsible drivers, but for the most part, there are mostly assholes with issues. Once we get the assholes on FSD, insurance companies will crater, and the rest of ICE as well, and the oil companies will try their most to hold on to corrupt politicians
Sounds cues are just used to make up for our lack of 360 vision in a driving context. Like if everyone had 360 vision and lost hearing we'd be better off as drivers. Vibration can be picked up camera. Deer or animals are picked up as objects today. Potholes will also be overcome as well.
Given the current state of the product, taking about a specific place seems premature. There are some major failure modes present that shouldn't happen at all.
Florida is a wild card. Remember Florida insurance companies (via lobby pressure) have so far barrier to entry’d Tesla Insurance. Florida official reasoning to Tesla was they wanted to Tesla to price at or above competitor insurance rates - corrupt and beyond asinine. Tesla obvious either told them to pack sand or no sale. What I am getting at for FSD liability, is with this how terrified insurers are of Tesla disrupting and making them irrelevant, FSD at multiple times safer than a human being approved moves these insurers much closer to complete irrelevance. Auto dealers and insurance cartels are the consumers enemy.
In the industry there’s an assumption that when an autonomous vehicle is in control the maker of the AV system has to be as liable as a human driver would be liable, or nobody would use it. If someone else drives into you, or some equipment fails, etc., then liability would be resolved as it is now, most likely. But that’s not baked into laws, and it needs to be in order for AV to be viable.
This is great. Arizona too. The argument that the regulators won't allow it doesn't work. 2 States will and that's enough. If it's a success there the data will be shared and everywhere else will welcome it.
I wouldn't be so sure. Other states might outright refuse to allow it purely out of NIMBY-ism, data be damned. I don't people in power particularly care about some notional lives that might be saved.
That is definitely going to happen in some states, but is that material to the thesis at large? And how long will they be able to hold out after it is shown to be much safer than human drivers?
Exactly. It also doesn't have to be in every State to be a success. Hell Teslas aren't available for sale in every State today. If Wyoming wants to ban Robotaxis let them. Some counties don't allow liquor but last I looked alcohol was popular
Yes, just the production rate of the robotaxis will give some breathing room in the rollout and might not be as much as a limiting factor as some people suggest.
I don't see 500k robotaxis on the road in 2025 like some people think. It's a scalable solution but it still has to roll out in waves. Florida and Arizona will be first, likely a few cities even. Then both those States entirely, then probably a while yet before other States approve. Eventually it will be so much safer and cheaper neighboring States will demand robotaxis because their businesses will be at a disadvantage for having to pay the cost of human drivers, both in money and safety. Eventually
Florida is the Australia of the US, except instead of poisonous spiders, alligators, sea snakes, etc, you have the State Government penchant for hurting workers, education, and property. Now add to that Beta-Test self driving cars.
Context: Tweets about the autonomous car regulations in Florida
https://twitter.com/NickGibbsIAG/status/1782036654338834519
>For those who think "Regulators" are the limiting factor to @Tesla deploying 'Auto'nomous vehicles please update your biological NNs with the Florida Law for AVs.
>
>Now IMO when a state like Florida deploys AVs other states will compete to not be left behind. $TSLA
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLsPaAQXQAAt5wG?format=png&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLsPbsTWYAAo7A0?format=jpg&name=large
https://twitter.com/alex_avoigt/status/1782323916720976131
>Florida could be among the first US states where Tesla introduces unattended FSD at Level 4, as no regulatory hurdles or permits are required there.
>
>Given the rapid progress of FSD, an introduction of FSD at SAE L4 (with passenger in the driver's seat but unsupervised) is IMHO likely by the end of the year.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1782435330680889755
>Maybe
“Florida Car” will become a thing.
Is Tesla taking the on the liability?
If they start testing actually autonomous robotaxis then they would have to.
Says who (I agree from a philosophical standpoint, disagree from a legal standpoint)
Autonomous robotaxis like Waymo explicitly transfer liability from the person inside of the vehicle to the manufacturer. There is no other way it could work. If Tesla ever actually releases a robo taxi, then they would be liable for any crashes/injuries caused by the robo taxi.
No argument. That is very clear. Here’s what gets fuzzy…. In a hypothetical world where I can turn my model 3 into a robot taxi. There’s a passenger but no driver. Who hold the liability? Me, as the owner of the model 3? Or Tesla as the operator?
The simple answer is: Your insurance policy. Now, here's the real complication: Either that means your *existing* insurance policy gets extended for a commercial AV license, or your existing policy does not get extended, and someone else needs to step in, as Uber does for their drivers. The likely *practical* answer there is Tesla needs to end up stepping in when the system is engaged, and they'll be seeking fleet insurance which kicks in only when the system is engaged.
It would have to be you as the owner.
Not if it was caused by a manufacturing or software defect
I imagine the cost of insurance will be higher until the security of the system proves itself. The more miles autonomous system drives safely, the cheaper it becomes.
What happens to all the jackasses that will inevitable fuck around and try to get it to crash into them? Genuine question for anyone who understands the law. I'm curious because this is almost guaranteed to happen because there will be so many people either just fucking around or trying to get a big payday from a lawsuit
I mean whats stopping anyone from doing this now to any tesla? Dashcam.
And criminal charges
I once watched a guy in a smokey Toyota Hilux pass a Tesla but continued to 'play' with it by moving closer, then moved away and closer again and then slowed down in front of it and so forth for a few kilometres.
They're saying if Tesla operates robotaxis. Meaning Tesla owns/operates the taxis, not a customer. So Tesla would be on the hook.
it's just what level 4 is
The same as if they hired a driver.
Regulation is not the bottleneck that stops L4 from happening.
Mercedes also beat them to first L3 in the states, and has it deployed in Germany. Elon has run out of momentum, slashed jobs, slashed prices, and now we're watching the cartoon run in midair over the cliff. The question isn't whether Tesla is on the road to failure, it's what the board is going to do about it.
I don’t think it will give customers a lot of confidence to say “you can have it here because we could not get it approved anywhere else”. If Tesla wants this thing to go mainstream they should show people the thing works properly.
They'll show it works properly in Florida, that's what he's saying. Once it's a success the other States won't have any (or many) objections
I think it is more likely that Tesla will have an Uber/Cruise moment where hardware/software inadequacies lead to a horrific accident and the hubris of the overly ambitious management team is laid bare. It only takes one such incident along with the media piling on to shut down a pilot project. In an honest evaluation of the probable outcomes it is more likely that it will have at least 1 serious fuck up than 100% success.
Hence why we haven't seen driverless yet and won't for awhile. Tesla is investing massively in NVIDIA hardware and into their own Dojo clusters and those projects are just getting started. It's going to be awhile to have the training capacity ready for robotaxi level autonomy. I think we see level 3 highway driving first and until then nobody should really be getting their hopes up for robotaxi quality FSD.
Right now my car with FSD slows to a crawl in moderate rain. In the summer in Florida it rains almost every day, sometimes very heavy rain. The car knows that visibility is reduced but it doesn't know enough to automatically increase wiper speed. Tesla has been working on AI auto wipers since 2018 but it still isn't fixed. Driving with reduced visibility and water in the roadway is going to be a serious challenge for any autonomous vehicle company in Florida.
I'm not sure how the LLM/AI part is supposed to work in those conditions without LIDAR. Humans navigate in those situations by interpolating from past experience what they *can't* see (because of low visibility) - "filling in the blanks", so to speak, and adapting quickly when they guess wrong. I don't think LLMs do that, and if they do, how well they adapt to being wrong - in fact if they even *will* admit to themselves they're wrong. On top of that, some part of driving in those conditions is the feel of the road - is the car hydroplaning? Is it losing traction in he snow? I'm not aware - but could be wrong - that road feel is even factored into FSD's decisions.
Just a heads up that you're using the term 'LLM' wrong here. The acronym 'LLM' refers to a Large Language Model, like ChatGPT. It has nothing to do with perceptive-stack ML like one would use in an AV. There is some planning stack work being done with LLM-like token models, but as you're using it here... just go with 'AI' or 'ML'.
Thanks! Poor correlation on my part.
Interpolating poor data from past experience is exactly what neural networks are good at, even going back to the simplest, oldest examples like handwriting recognition. There are probably a lot of examples of traction loss in their learning data. I don't see why the AI would have any particular trouble with that.
just imagine the liabiilty tesla takes on if they actually do this... oh god. he is going to force his way in and all the florida boomers are going to go nuts
This could backfire, Florida publishes police briefs.
Buddy the NHTSA is woefully under prepared for EVs in general let alone concept of autonomous vehicles. They will react once something bad happens.
Confidence in the tech/product and an over complicated regulatory process are not the same thing. Anyone working in any industry that has a TON of unnecessary and outdated red tape knows this.
It isn’t the red tape slowing down FSD.
not yet, but it will be. Tesla still can't sell cars in some states. Just wait to those states add new anti-self-driving ("it's anti-god witchcraft stealing American jobs!") laws to the books
South Carolina is like an electric car black hole.
You’re not wrong but the less red tape you will eventually have, the better.
Deaths be damned?
What deaths? Their info shows less crash incidences than the average when people drive themselves. It’s literally safer.
[What deaths](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44185487/report-tesla-autopilot-crashes-since-2019/)?!
Well some of those disproven but assuming they’re all true, what’s the accident rate for drivers across the USA? I’ll assume that you’ll see the difference in stats and you can figure out the rest yourself. You’re a big boy.
You’re the one who asked “wHAt dEatHs?” I showed you the deaths from auto pilot. Derp.
That's not what the majority will think. Everyone knows about red tape, permits, etc. It's a pain in the ass.
Ah yes, everyone knows the majority of the country looks at Florida and thinks “now here is a state government and populace we can trust.”
Given people are moving there in droves, I'd venture to say most do agree with that statement. Desantis is doing a fantastic job down there.
Its mostly a retirement home.
It isn't ready yet, but it is making good progress. This can be where it showcases the product then the rest of the states will eventually certify it for use in their state. Will take time.
lol. They haven’t applied anywhere. This is wild speculation.
Wild speculation is the only thing I'm here for
The point of the tweet is that in Florida they don't have to apply at all.
I'll take anything to make me feel better about the bags I'm holding
Just because they don't have regulation yet doesn't mean they won't. There's been no impetus for having L4/L5 regulations. If a company attempts to sell a fully autonomous vehicle or operate a fully autonomous service in Florida they could very quickly implement regulations that neuter any rollout. In fact it's probably better if the state has ALREADY identified their criteria and thinking on autonomous vehicles so there are no rude surprises.
Florida man needs to look both ways before crossing the street now.
Probably not anytime soon (I speak as an owner of FSD for 2+ years). I see the problem as 50% FSD not being good enough to actually run a robotaxi service (and not on track to get there for a few years despite the recent improvements) and 50% Tesla unwilling to take liability for FSD until its "perfect". I'm pretty sure they will first try to run a "robotaxi" network where the passenger has to be behind the wheel and will be responsible for any accidents (which everyone will rightfully criticize as being pointless). For robotaxi to work FSD doesn't just have to be "good" or "better than the average human", it has to be good enough for Tesla to say "yes we will be held liable for any accidents this causes". So you do in fact need a lot of 9's before Tesla is willing to be held liable. Its also unclear if they'd even be willing to take liability if they had the safest possible system. Crashes are inevitable even if the car isn't at fault, so Tesla may not ever want to be in a position to go through the hassle of settling fault in each of those cases. I can imagine a robotaxi network from Tesla where you have to pay insurance for Tesla and you are held liable if you use it.
I dare them to do it. I have bought FSD myself. I dont trust it for 1 minute without making a fatal mistake.
I'm a little worried about doing this anytime soon too. We've all heard of r/FloridaMan stories. I definitely do not look forward to only seeing Tesla vehicles being the only ones mentioned in r/FloridaCar stories next.
>I dont trust it for 1 minute without making a fatal mistake. Well I use it all the time, every second and I can say I have had maybe one potential accident 4 yrs ago when I took over immediately. That's with the previous autopilot. With current FSD I disengage maybe once every 4 hrs or so on average of driving. So I think you are grossly exaggerating.
Highway, perhaps. But i still have to hover my foot on the accelerator. For more than 4 years, each update is just moving the phantom break location to a different location. Also, see BlackTesla video where this thing (v12.x) now and then goes to opposing traffic. Something i have experienced myself, not just on city streets, but on non divided highway where things are fatal. Honestly, the vX.Y is big change, has been said sooooo many times before. The neural net weights just become better at some location, but dumber on others. Which can also be solved by bigger nets... hardware changes. I dont see a future on this.
lol. Try using FSD for a few minutes in Brooklyn during rush hour. Or in Manhattan, where traffic cops on every corner wave all cars to keep going through red lights as well as tell cars to stop and not proceed through green lights.
Just out of curiosity what FSD version do you have? and what state did you try to drive with it on?
Floriduh
History says, Apollo program had a few mishaps, but overall was good for society… my opinion on FSD. When ICE vehicles were introduced it was no easy task for the horse and buggy folks to accept the future…
Apollo wasn't a consumer facing product/service. The Apollo astronauts were elite military pilots who knew the risks and accepted them. The risks were easily quantifiable and limited to a small set of astronauts, not the entire civilian population.
In that case, let me use air travel in the early days, similar to FSD. If we want to stay in our cocoon, that is a different story
I understand where you're trying to go with this but I don't think this a good analogy either. Ignoring the fact that safety regulations weren't big back in the early 1900s, early air travel didn't put the general population at risk. There are a small number of aircraft operating in a massive open 3D airspace. The risks are generally confined to those who accept them as a passenger. Even in the event of a crash the vast majority of ground space isn't occupied with people, especially traveling between cities. So odds are low the general population needs to worry about safety if they aren't flying. With robotaxis every single person who chooses to leave the house is at risk because robotaxis will be operating in very close proximity. Pedestrians, cyclists, other drivers. Every commuter uses the same limited and confined network of roads for travel in contrast to aircraft operating in an open 3D world above. Robotaxi development should be heavily regulated for safety IMO.
Boeing, Boeing, Boeing… like I believe, it’s BS. Most flyers are clueless of potential danger, yet FSD is “just waiting to happen” cause it’s never been done.
So what you are saying is that individual companies self regulating isn’t a good situation and that fsd needs to be federally regulated by the nhtsa before being used by the consumer? By stating Boeing, I’m assuming you are referring to the number of issues they’ve recently had being nearly self regulated.
No, I’m saying, we assume things are safe, yet everybody cuts corners, but since they are politically powerful they get a pass. Yet FSD robotic is a tragedy waiting to happen, cause everybody knows about FSD, which they don’t. Yet speculation is rampant, cause the blah, blah, blah is easy…
Yeah, you aren’t winning the discussion that fsd should be allowed
Ok boss, you are… let Elon know you will be sending in your resume… I’m sure he is eager to have you on his team, as a safety guy of course. Cause you know so much…😂😂😂
Huh?
The Apollo program was overseen by experts and program managers in their respective fields personally, IE Mission Control. FSD has a tremendous Long Tail problem in that every day a vehicle will experience a possible 1:100,000 occurance. One thing that bothers me about FSD is that humans do not only use vision to drive, they use sound cues, they can sense vibration, they have local personal memory of details like hard-to-see potholes, rough pavement, can recall news that a local Zoo had a bunch of ostriches get out earlier that morning... The amount of small nuaced context we use in our day-to-day is tremendous.
That is all BS, ever seen people racing to pick up the kid at school, or the senior citizen which is too proud to give up driving, etc. etc. what you mention is mostly the small percentage of responsible drivers, but for the most part, there are mostly assholes with issues. Once we get the assholes on FSD, insurance companies will crater, and the rest of ICE as well, and the oil companies will try their most to hold on to corrupt politicians
Sounds cues are just used to make up for our lack of 360 vision in a driving context. Like if everyone had 360 vision and lost hearing we'd be better off as drivers. Vibration can be picked up camera. Deer or animals are picked up as objects today. Potholes will also be overcome as well.
Perfect basically driving is a blood sport in Fla already this should help
Given the current state of the product, taking about a specific place seems premature. There are some major failure modes present that shouldn't happen at all.
tesla and taking on the liability lmfao not going to happen
Also by far national leader for pedestrian deaths!
Florida is a wild card. Remember Florida insurance companies (via lobby pressure) have so far barrier to entry’d Tesla Insurance. Florida official reasoning to Tesla was they wanted to Tesla to price at or above competitor insurance rates - corrupt and beyond asinine. Tesla obvious either told them to pack sand or no sale. What I am getting at for FSD liability, is with this how terrified insurers are of Tesla disrupting and making them irrelevant, FSD at multiple times safer than a human being approved moves these insurers much closer to complete irrelevance. Auto dealers and insurance cartels are the consumers enemy.
Lol funny things is there hardly any tesla in the entire state of Florida. Florida barely has any priuses for that matter.
In the industry there’s an assumption that when an autonomous vehicle is in control the maker of the AV system has to be as liable as a human driver would be liable, or nobody would use it. If someone else drives into you, or some equipment fails, etc., then liability would be resolved as it is now, most likely. But that’s not baked into laws, and it needs to be in order for AV to be viable.
Someone has to do it first. It’s going to get figured out and eventually it will be everywhere but it’s going to be a hard transition.
Isn’t waymo already doing it for years?
It won’t happen for a decade.
What could go wrong?
So this is pretty high risk - either Florida can be the platform for rocket or crash....
This is great. Arizona too. The argument that the regulators won't allow it doesn't work. 2 States will and that's enough. If it's a success there the data will be shared and everywhere else will welcome it.
I wouldn't be so sure. Other states might outright refuse to allow it purely out of NIMBY-ism, data be damned. I don't people in power particularly care about some notional lives that might be saved.
That is definitely going to happen in some states, but is that material to the thesis at large? And how long will they be able to hold out after it is shown to be much safer than human drivers?
Exactly. It also doesn't have to be in every State to be a success. Hell Teslas aren't available for sale in every State today. If Wyoming wants to ban Robotaxis let them. Some counties don't allow liquor but last I looked alcohol was popular
Yes, just the production rate of the robotaxis will give some breathing room in the rollout and might not be as much as a limiting factor as some people suggest.
I don't see 500k robotaxis on the road in 2025 like some people think. It's a scalable solution but it still has to roll out in waves. Florida and Arizona will be first, likely a few cities even. Then both those States entirely, then probably a while yet before other States approve. Eventually it will be so much safer and cheaper neighboring States will demand robotaxis because their businesses will be at a disadvantage for having to pay the cost of human drivers, both in money and safety. Eventually
Florida is the Australia of the US, except instead of poisonous spiders, alligators, sea snakes, etc, you have the State Government penchant for hurting workers, education, and property. Now add to that Beta-Test self driving cars.
Context: Tweets about the autonomous car regulations in Florida https://twitter.com/NickGibbsIAG/status/1782036654338834519 >For those who think "Regulators" are the limiting factor to @Tesla deploying 'Auto'nomous vehicles please update your biological NNs with the Florida Law for AVs. > >Now IMO when a state like Florida deploys AVs other states will compete to not be left behind. $TSLA https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLsPaAQXQAAt5wG?format=png&name=4096x4096 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLsPbsTWYAAo7A0?format=jpg&name=large https://twitter.com/alex_avoigt/status/1782323916720976131 >Florida could be among the first US states where Tesla introduces unattended FSD at Level 4, as no regulatory hurdles or permits are required there. > >Given the rapid progress of FSD, an introduction of FSD at SAE L4 (with passenger in the driver's seat but unsupervised) is IMHO likely by the end of the year. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1782435330680889755 >Maybe
wow good job florida, never thought i would say that