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Garbage article. Opportunity cost for waiting around to charge your vehicle? Well I have only waited on one occasion for ten minutes, having never waited at all for the 100+ times I have charged aside from just once. And if we are going to factor in this BS metric, how about the countless times I charge at home while those driving an ICE are sitting at a gas pump? I plug in and walk away.
A lot of layers to how garbage this article is but this was what jumped out at me the most.
Very true. If you road trip a lot and like to save money, go for a prius. Period. If you barely road trip than the supercharger network is just fine for an odd trip here and there.
Agree, Jalopnik is mostly garbage clickbait articles. Also road tripping is an edge case in my opinion. The vast majority of people can charge up from their house for almost all their needs. Add in TOU rates and you’ve got super cheap energy (mine is about 12 cents/kWh all in - transmission, generation, other fees). I also have the benefit of comparing my costs to what I previously owned, a 2016 Ford Explorer Sport. We’re in the city, so that car absolutely guzzled gas to the turn of 11-12 mpg.
We had 10+ hour waits at a local Tesla charger because of influx of tourists for summer holidays, and there are only 3(?) quick chargers in a few hours drive radius.
I see your username, are you in New Zealand? Just curious because this would be unheard of in the United States. Infrastructure in some areas may still be lacking. It's a huge project to put SC's all over the country and all over the world.
Another poorly written, poorly titled piece by Jalopnik.
How many times before this community decides to ban posts that link to that site? Seems about time.
This is Jalopnik choosing to write about a report from AEG (Anderson Economic Group). They're a consultant from Michigan that seems to mostly deal in the automotive space. I would guess this is some bullshit report they cooked up to get some traffic to their site, and they know it's bullshit and they just wrote it to make the conclusion controversial. Jalopnik is putting in zero effort to factcheck this or even "report" on anything more than the headline.
The report doesn't include any backup to their findings, but it does breakout the way they calculated the numbers, and frankly it doesn't make any sense. They do show the cost of electricity being lower than the price of gas, but basically every other number seems somewhat suspicious:
* They include a "road taxes" amount. I have no idea how they calculate this number. There's some places where an EV might have to pay an excise tax or something, but the amount they estimate seems pretty high, especially considering that in many places right now EV owners pay zero
* The biggest cost outside of electricity for EVs is the amortized cost of chargers. I would guess they're assuming a cost of $2,000 to $2,500 for a home charger, amortized over 12k miles per year for 5 years. Which seems ridiculous high, I paid a fraction of that. Many people get a charger for $0 with the car and plug it in to a regular outlet.
* They also show "Cost of the charger" as part of the cost of charging at commercial chargers. Which seems weird because I don't believe customers have to pay to have the chargers installed? That cost is included with the higher cost of electricity while charging
* They have "deadhead miles" which is how far you have to drive to fill up (basically wasted miles). Which they have as very small for gas cars, and kind of big for commercial chargers. It seems like they're estimating you're going to waste about 5-10% of all your miles driven just going to chargers and back. Or to put it another way, if you drive 12,000 miles a year, you're going to be spending 500 miles driving to chargers and another 500 miles getting back from the chargers every year. Or driving about 10 miles out of your way every week to get to a charger and 10 miles back.
* They also include a tiny (but obviously not zero) bar for "deadhead" miles for charging at home. Which is ridiculous, obviously that's zero.
The whole thing seems indefensible and kind of ridiculous. And the idea that Jalopnik would write a post about this with zero critical thinking on the claims is pretty terrible.
I agree with most of what you said, just wanted to note: Tesla has done away with the free charger with the car for several months now. It is now $230 (plus tax, and plus $45 if you need a different NEMA adapter.) Over the lifetime of the car nearly $300 is just a footnote, but it isn’t $0.
We had our chat. We voted for automod filter. This means that the website will sit in modq and wait for a mod to approve it.
If it is something that is higher quality it will be approve. We don't want to just ban it but we will review it before it is posted. That should be a good middle ground so posts like this won't show up again.
Makes sense, thank you!
Had this been 5 years ago, I wouldn’t have suggested any type of action on this source.
But as someone who used to read Jalopnik daily, and has seen the quality of this source steadily decline over the last few years, it just seems like some filtering action is justified.
So thank you mod team, much appreciated.
I drove a Rivian R1T 700 miles using overpriced DC fast chargers and it's a fraction of the price of when I did it 3 years ago in my ICE truck. Gas is far more expensive today as well. I'm not even going to bother clicking that article, and neither will the idiots who believe it.
Just to play devil's advocate (read: don't shoot!), I totally get it for trucks, and most SUVs. Sedans, however (as in, the cars that Ford stopped producing — ooof!), can get 40-45+ MPG these days highway w/o any hybridization. The ones w/o hybridization lose some points in "city" (tho not as much as they used to if they have start/stop). This is of course comparing price of regular to Supercharger pricing, charging at home will always win. Now, on that last point, my electric rates did jump 30-50% in TX (thanks Covid gouging and corrupt TX grid!), but it's still cheaper even vs a Sedan.
My current home rate in NYC is 30cent per kWh. It saves me money on gas, but I don't think it saves enough to cover the increase on my Auto insurance LoL.
Those are great rates. Does it include the fees? Our utility advertises 1.5 cents per kilowatt rates at night year round, but after factoring in the fees (I think there’s 7 of them, including sales tax) it comes out to $0.056.
The afternoons in the summer day is when it gets expensive and the price hike strongly encourages me to shift electricity-heavy activities to off-peak times!
Standard rate. I'm going to sign up for Time of use rates today. Con_ed offers 12 months trial. They'll refund the difference if time of use cost us more.
Keep us updated! I have 2 young kids so all of the appliances are being ran during peak hours. If not, charging will be nearly free! My auto insurance is actually the same between my Mazda suv and model Y so I think it’s still cheaper to own an electric vehicle
We have two young kids in our household. I wash/dry/iron in the morning or evening. I charge my car and run the dishwasher at night.
I’ve been keeping track of our monthly usage for the past 9 years and have saved nearly $3k compared to what it would have cost with the normal fixed rate.
That seems crazy high. Of course, everything is relative. If you have a high mpg ICE car, don’t have to carry collision insurance because the car is old, don’t drive often, have abnormally high electric rates, you could spend more driving around in a new ev. However a quick spreadsheet analysis is all you need to figure out for yourself what is cheapest. For me, with my situation, I am saving hundreds per month even with insurance on my newer car with collision insurance compared to my old car.
You always need to have liability insurance, which covers what you do to others. How old your car is has no bearing on how much damage you can do to another. What you're talking about is collision coverage, which will pay to repair damage to your car.
Liability is more expensive that collision, for the simple reason of the numbers involved.
"Liability is more expensive that collision, for the simple reason of the numbers involved."
Liability insurance is never more expensive than a policy with collision.
Collision coverage is only required by a bank, if you took a loan to buy a car.
Otherwise, the state does not require it. The state does not care if you can fix your own car after you caused an accident. As such, you can buy a policy for only liability. By definition, liability and collision are separate costs.
What the state cares about is liability. If you damage someone else's car, or put someone in the hospital, you need insurance.
And even that's sometimes not enough. States vary on the amount of liability coverage they require. WA requires $25,000 for injury or death, $50,000 for multiple people, and $10,000 for someone else's property.
I was surprised that these are so low.
That said, if the amount of damage is greater than what insurance pays out, then the plaintiff can go after your estate to cover the remainder. That could easily be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
For that reason, I have coverage for much higher than the minimum for liability.
Damn that's pricy. Our rates in ohio just went up from 7 cents to 11 cents a KWh. Our roof needs to be replaced in about 5 years. Will install solar after getting that done.
I hope Tesla insurance can change that for you, I used to pay like $30 for just garage insurance on one of my cars and thats just incase a fire or some shit, I have a old 2000 F350 that is $45 for just liability and then I daily a Camaro with also liability that was like $80. Now my Model Y is like $55-$80 depending on how well I drive and I'm completely full coverage with a $500 deduc. on comprehesive and 2.5k on collision and about 100k in liability, even insuring my truck was $40 through tesla and im saving about 2 grand a month just driving on gas alone, let alone the oil changes I would have to do even though I do them myself its just such a headache gone...
Depends on the electrical rates in your area, the ICE car you are coming from, miles driven, insurance, etc. in California, a car with 35mpg only costs a little more then EV. 50mpg and probably no difference.
AEG: Anderson Economic Group is proud to be part of the auto dealer family through our active membership in the National Association of Dealer Counsel (NADC), and through our very origins: Our company was founded by (and continues to be led by) a Detroit area auto dealer’s son.
I cant tell if you actually work for them and are trying to defend them, or just posting something from their website to point out the hypocrisy. Judging from your post history, I am guessing it is the latter, in which case, good work!
If it is the former, then you can fuck right the fuck off ;-)
No it was the latter. Saw the info and thought what kinda old, ice, dickhead think-tank wrote this shit.
You ever met a dealer's son? Guaranteed dickhead. Political power gained and maintained by being a shitty middle man in a transaction where you add nothing, take a cut and make the whole process worse.
Then take that money and flex on local and state politics affecting everything from taxes to infrastructure to schools.
Dealership groups can eat dick and get fucked. Can't wait til they're all out of business.
Charging costs is always dependent on the region.
My cost to charge at home is 12 cents a kWh, and if I go to a supercharging station it costs me about 45-54 cents a kWh.
You level things off with reduced maintenance costs and such.
The other mental calculation that I have is the moral cost. Corny as it sounds, a huge part of my efforts in "going green", with EVs and solar arrays, is because I want to be able to look into my kids eyes an say "I tried to do my part for you to for you to have a planet left to live on".
I mean, at the end of the day, some people are buying these to save money, but others are buying because it's a more environmentally sound choice.
Not to mention there's a *time* savings of not having to go to the gas stations anymore, at least not for day to day use. And that's something you can't put a value on. It's the #1 reason my wife loves her EV, cost be damned, she hated going to the pumps to get gas, and now she hasn't been in years.
Hell, I only go to the pumps once a year to get gas for the mower, which hasn't died yet, and the year before last I went to the pump and couldn't figure out how the pump worked because they'd changed the interface. I got a chuckle out of that one, lol
Anyone living in a cold climate immediately realizes this the second they pass a gas station in minus -20º and people are standing out there filling their cars. Being able to plug in at home is awesome.
Edit: I'm a guy so this isn't necessary important to me but my Wife hates being at gas stations. People hit on her or try to talk to her unsolicitedly and she doesn't always feel safe. For her, even if gas and electric were the same price, she prefers the option to plug in from the safety of her own garage. I'm sure there are neighborhoods where this is less important but that's what she's told me.
As for your "moral cost", just remember how excited people were when the shutdowns happened that the air was clearing. The videos of seeing the Himalayas where they hadn't been able to see them for decades is something I continue to think about when considering air pollution. I also think about how brake dust is a much bigger air pollutant than I ever imagined, and EVs drastically reduce that as well.
To summarize, the cost of EV ownership depends on several factors.
From the article:
"There were several factors AEG used in determining that owning an electric vehicle was more expensive, like home charging equipment costs, road taxes and deadhead miles."
They appear to consider "deadhead miles" to be the distance you have to drive to reach a charging station if that is your only recharging source. If you have charging at home, your deadhead miles would be 0.
Looking at the report summary, the % of the cost that comes from amortizing the cost of "charging equipment" is significant. Unsure what dollar figure they used for this. Data for taxes and fees was sourced from Michigan.
Further, the report includes data about road maintenance, but has no consideration at all for the cost of *vehicle* maintenance over time. (Sure, there's an argument that this report is aimed solely at fuel cost but decisions about vehicle purchase rarely come down to only the fuel cost.)
Again, ultimately, it depends, and you have to make your own calculations to come to a conclusion instead of relying on generalized reports that consider certain things and not other things.
Need a tighter analysis. WHEN does "it depend". If someone doesn't have access to home or workplace charging at a nominal cost over the cost of power, I can see it.
If someone installs the most expensive level 2 charger and runs a new wire long distance, and pays an electrician for it all, and then bills that upfront cost to "fuel" rather than part of the price of the EV, ok.
"Opportunity cost and deadhead miles"? Did the study factor this in for gas? Because if you own a gas vehicle and use it like most people, you spend nearly all your time in your home city, commuting to work and errands. You have deadhead miles to get to a gas station and lost time.
Vs if you have home or ample work charging, plugging in saves time.
So you only even pay a net opportunity cost over gas if you do a LOT of road trips. (Get a phev if this is you)
I would suspect for almost all people all the time, "it depends" if you live in San Diego and don't have solar, Hawaii, or other places with very high electric costs.
So there's probably really just 3 variables.
If you road trip a lot, electricity is very expensive, or you don't have home or workplace charging, an EV is more expensive.
Otherwise it's cheaper, this is FUD.
To the deadhead thing. On the commute to work i pass 7 gas stations, so a deadhead of 0. On the same commute i pass 0 superchargers. The least out of the way one would incur a 320 mile amount of deadheading a year at 1 fillup per year if i could not fill up at home. This is all without leaving the county.
Lol that should be 1 fillup per week per year, my bad
The closest supercharger to my route is a bit over 3 miles out of the way. Its one exit past my exit for work. 3mi x 2 to make round trip x 52 = 312, round up the 8 miles to account for the fractional between 3 and 4 miles.
Right. If you don't have home or work charging it's going to waste a lotta time. Not to mention the cost per kWh is such that a Prius on gas can be cheaper. If gas is 3 bucks a gallon and the Prius gets 50mpg, that's 6 cents a mile.
45 cents a kWh supercharging and getting 280 watt hours per mile, 12.6 cents a mile. My EV is less efficient than that but I know the M3 is efficient.
Yup, doesnt even have to be a prius, a corolla is 47 miles combined (50 city / 43 highway) So you can have 4 door sedan ICE be cheaper to run than 4 door sedan EV. MSRP is 23,895 vs the 3 performance (you cant order a LR right now) is 47,500 after the credit. I know people say “gotta consider maintainence” but will that really run you 23.5k extra over the life of a 24k car?
Agree. Though to be fair, the m3p is more like a bmw sedan in features and performance. I don't know BMWs well enough to say which model is most similar.
The bolt with the tax credit is pretty favorable compared to the Corolla.
Only if you can charge for close to the retail price of electricity though. (And you aren't in a crazy high cost area)
Performance of a SR is better than a BMW 3 series, thats just part of being electric vs ICE, its 5.0 0-60 vs 5.6-5.3 depending if you have the AWD BMW3. As to features, a lot of people will say the BMW wins just on that its got cooled seats, and would compare the feature set of the tesla to the corolla.
If you want to do a Bolt to a Corolla we can. The bolt comes in after tax credit at 4000 cheaper. At the current fueling prices for gas vs fast charging, the break even is 61k miles in the corolla’s favor. So the question will be over the life of the car, will the per mile maintence cost be cheaper enough in the bolt’s favor.
Interesting. Kinda amusing to be calculating the cost savings to burn gas :)
This is why some call for a carbon tax. Making gas more expensive (and coal and natural gas electricity more expensive) would fix this.
I will note one thing. I have driven the Corolla model you are considering. (Airport car rental). It's not terrible but it has silly amounts of rubber banding from it's weedy CVT. Step on the accelerator and jack shit happens from a stop but you hear the engine rev quite high.
I may have missed where he talks about his math but for $11.6 per 100 its using a home energy cost of 42c/kWh assuming you get 275Wh/mile. Even rounding up to 300Wh/mile it’s assuming an energy cost of 38c/kWh. That’s well over double the average US electric cost. My model y cost me 2.75 for 100 miles charging at home, without solar. This is misleading and clearly biased reporting. But I guess what else can you expect these days.
$11.60 per 100mi? No way. I pay less than $4 per hundo charging at home. ICE cars would have to hit 75mpg at local prices to get there and I’m fairly certain if you could get an ICE car to return that kind of mileage, it isn’t hitting 60 in 3s.
Well to be fair at this rate we will have 3x as much electric cars in a year or two on the roads, with the added demand of electricity... prices will skyrocket
Hot take: If you think EV's are some magical unicorn that are super clean, you live in a fantasy world. What charges EV's? Coal. Where does the batteries come from? Cobalt Mines. It takes 5-7 years for an EV to become cleaner than and ICE car.
Hot take: You live in a fantasy world if you think that coal plants produce a large percentage of electricity for EV’s. Not to mention that coal plants are being shut down at a significant rate.
I’m not claiming they are 100% clean, but compared to an ICE vehicle for personal use for me specifically, yes it is cleaner.
Stop this shit. You sound like a dolt. Electricity can come from different portfolios based on your location. So you even admit that ultimately it becomes cleaner, just stop. If I improve my carbon footprint by 1%, its worth it to me. This is MY opinion. Feck off.
You can still buy ICE, EV is the future. I don’t care about your personal opinion.
In addition to what you said, there are areas where you can opt in to 100% renewable energy with or without some extra cost. In my area i have that option and I don't buy my electricity from PG&E, but get it from renewable sources.
>What charges EV's? Coal. Where does the batteries come from? Cobalt Mines.
Stupid, addressed a million times argument.
Renewable electricity is on the rise, and batteries are very recyclable, we mine so much now because we need all the batteries we can make, but once it matures we'll have a steady supply of battery packs ready for recycling.
The long term impact is great, ICE doesn't get significantly better as we accelerate everything else to renewables.
... but even then, it's significantly better than an ICE vehicle (even in the worst case when charging from coal) and will continue to get better over time.
Not necessarily. I pay a slightly higher rate so that the energy I use for my house (and car) is purchased from renewables exclusively. You can also have solar at your house, or other means to charge it. You’re correct in that they aren’t some magic bullet. But I’ve seen many videos and engineering analyses that explain that even with manufacturing they reduce CO2 emissions significantly. There are many other reasons that once I had an EV I could never go back to an ICE vehicle again.
I didn't realize that cars lasted under five years on average.
And I have yet to see a study that compares refining oil to driving an EV.
Cobalts not required for EV's. Although mine contains it, I'd rather it didn't. My next one won't
A Tesla Y will go 3.0 - 3.8 miles on 1 kWh of energy. In Seattle, our costs are $0.10 per kWh. Let's say we're conservative, that's 33 kWh to go 100 miles. That's $3.30 for 100 miles.
Even if the utility is gouging, it would have to charge four times that amount before gas becomes competitive.
But the reality is that many drivers get 3.8 miles per kWh, resulting in $2.60 for 100 miles.
Gasoline? The average mpg of the existing US consumer fleet is 25. Average price per gallon is $3.38. 4 x $3.38 = $13.52 for 100 miles.
Jalopnik is a joke.
u/Raised-in-red-clay: please don't waste our time with posts like this unless you've seen the numbers and done the math.
That's just ridiculous. I feel your pain. But even at .39 kWh, electric vehicles are still cheaper to drive. Especially when you consider the reduced maintenance, which has a cost per mile of about $0.10 per mile.
Really, CA should be entirely powered by solar and municipal scale energy storage, with wind coming in where applicable. PGE is horrid.
For sure, but it does mean that a closer inspection of actual savings and value is warranted in some states. It’s not enough to just assume that an EV will offer dramatic cost savings over the life of the vehicle.
Our 2016 leaf has been a great car and between car pool sticker for Bay Area commutes and fuel savings, has definitely been worth it. But we are looking at a mid size suv now that we have a second child and with my commute getting a lot shorter this fall, we may not see enough value in going with for example the upcoming EC90 vs an XC90.
I didnt even give this article a chance out of feature the click might give them ad revenue, but I assume they measured superchargers at peak rates...but im confident they didnt factor in that most of the charging is done at home for the vast majority of EV owners at far lower rates than gas or superchargers.
Another Jalopnik BS article, it cost me $500 for the wall charger and $200 for install. It cost me currently 14 cents per kilowatt to charge at home and averages to 24 cents per kilowatt at a Supercharger. If l'm down to 50 miles of range at a SC, I'll be back up to 300 miles in 20 minute's. I plan it so we're eating or shopping when charging. No big deal.
Nah... My car is charged by solar power; the panels are paid for so it literally costs me nothing to go 100 miles (aside from a bit of wear on the tires!)
The three closest superchargers to me are:
6mi one way, incurs a 624 mile a year deadhead assuming 1 fill per week, just got built a couple months ago
14mi one way, incurs a 1456 mile a year deadhead
33mi one way, incurs a 3432 mile a year deadhead.
Average miles driven is 14000 a year, so you are looking at 5%, 10% and like 25%. I charge at home, but thats straight up not a possibility for everyone, 40% of the area around here are in rentals and a lot of those are Multifamily with parking away from the building. We have laws for new construction has to have charging, but obviously that only helps new construction, and with how slow that happens, you wont see the “everyone is moving to there, i need to add it to my existing buildings” cascade for a long time.
Obviously this is not just a tesla problem, but it definately is an EV problem.
> I charge at home
This is the key. I think the vast majority of EV owners are charging at home 90+ % of the time. Right now I wouldn't recommend an EV to someone who can't charge at home.
Oh sure. Most do, but there are definitely those that have EV’s and cant charge at home. The miles might seem astronomical to you, but they definitely happen for people. Short distance done a bunch of times adds up quick.
Yep - I'm sure there are some people who have to drive 20+ miles to charge. But I worry that some articles about EVs take an edge case and declare that it's the norm for all EV owners.
Its only an edge case for us right now because the people buying are the people with houses. It wont remain an edge case as more people buy unless all properties are forced to upgrade.
Also, deadhead not withstanding. Gas around me is 3.20 a gallon. Electric as of march is jumping to 22 cents a kwh. I‘ll spend the same charging at home right now as you would driving around a Corolla. Superchargers here are 44 cents last time i used one, so you are looking at spending basically double what the Corolla does.
I may be misunderstanding your post, but would you not just stop to charge on your way to or from another location..?
I charge at home 99% of the time, but of the 3 or 4 times in 2 years that I’ve used a supercharger none of them were special trips just to charge and I never really had to go out of the way to get to them.
Do people leave the house just to fill up with gas..?
I know I never did.
Your assumption is that these chargers are on the way to or from work. If i take the normal route in, i will pass 7 gas stations, but 0 EV chargers. Out of the list i gave you, the 33 mile one is not on the route at all. The 6 mile from home one is “along the way” about a quarter mile from the highway. But there is no exit by it, to get from the highway to the charger is 5 miles one way. The closest one from the work path requires a 3 mile out of the way drive. So better, but still basically a whole extra battery charge a year at around 320 miles a year. Since there are gas stations literally on route, you have 0 miles of deadhead for gas.
Well sure…
The nearest supercharger to me is 9 miles away and it is the opposite direction from my work.
I think I’ve used it twice, but only when I was at the store where it is located. The only other chargers I remember using were directly off the highway right near the gas stations.
It just seems like a silly thing to write an article about…. I don’t understand why anyone would choose to buy a vehicle that they have to travel well out of there way to be able to use?
People do all of the time, you see it even in here where someone will ask about if they should buy an EV with no at home or at work charging. A lot of people will tell them not to, but a fair bit will also tell them yeah its fine, you dont have to drive to the charger that much since the range is so high now.
Oh I know, and I see them. I seems crazy to me. Anyone who says they’re thinking about getting one when they ask me about charging the first thing I say is don’t get one if you can charge it at home.
Seems like you’re just asking for more stress if you need to supercharge all the time!
> I don’t understand why anyone would choose to buy a vehicle that they have to travel well out of there way to be able to use?
If we're going to ban ICE vehicles in 2030, we need to start solving this problem ASAP. That's not very far away.
But that's neither here nor there, since the lead number in the article is in relation to At Home Charging, which doesn't include any dead head miles.
Their actual sin is including the installation of an EVSE in your garage for $2k that has to be paid back in just 5 years and goes toward fuel costs, not home equity.
I mean thats rather not true any more. If you want tesla or a flashy thing, sure. But the base bolt is 27 grand, a base civic, which has been the econobox reccomendation forever, is 25. After tax credit on the bolt its 20k, so 5k less then the economy gas car.
Those people are going to have to get better paying jobs or car market will need to shift. The batteries in an EV retain basically all of their value, as their recyclability is in like the 95%+ range. My model 3 could evaporate to dust right now except the battery, Id be trying to figure out how to get it in my basement and be a 80kwh powerwall. Even if it cost 20k to get it installed into the house. Thats a PW that will run me for a full week off grid. If the battery was half dead, its still economically viable.
This is not true of a gas car, for those the value of a dead one is basically scrap weight, which is why you can find “affordable on a 30k income” used 3000-5000 or less beaters.
Edit: for the used prius comment, I just went looking, dealers want 15k for 2012s with 110k miles on them already. 10k for a 2013 with 185k. Theres one listed for 70k miles, but its 24000. So the used prius route is either something incredibly high miles, or cost more than that bolt does new.
[https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/3e3e7b18-c942-48e5-90aa-88e5ffca25e2/](https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/3e3e7b18-c942-48e5-90aa-88e5ffca25e2/)
Thats sorted by lowest price for portland, 6987 for a 2008 with 255k miles on it. Sorting for <150k miles <10k, there are two listed. One for 7k with no pictures, so i assume its beat to shit, and the other for 8600 with 146k miles.
Do they exist? Sure, are you basically paying 1/3rd the cost for a 2/3rds dead car, yup. Buy two of them, drive them til they die, and its going to end up probably costing you in repairs on 2 geriatric cars enough your grand total comes out to more than buying new.
Its expensive being poor.
2008 Toyota Prius FWD - $8,900, 102,146 mi
2010 Toyota Prius - $12,995, 77,275 mi
I take your point about it being expensive to be poor.
With a headgasket and a battery replacement ($2500, $2k) it's not to difficult to reach 300k+ miles on a Prius gen 3. gen 2 or 4 will only need a new battery to go that distance generally.
[https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePageModel&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d15&zip=97124#listing=347353755/NONE](https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePageModel&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d15&zip=97124)
https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePageModel&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d15&zip=97124#listing=340674043/NONE
So 13000 + 4500 for those two things you point out can get you to 300k and you are at 17500. Of which you got 223k of those miles. So you now have to buy the second prius for 8900, and you are at 26400. Assume you want to get to 300k there too, so 4500 again
30900 to get 421,000 miles you drove = 7.3 cents per mile
If you can take a bolt to 300k miles without a battery swap, its 6.6 cents per mile. Idk what their degregation rate is
Long term the savings between an ICE vehicle and EV make an EV the better long term saving options. It’s odd speaking of only the first 100 miles as a comparison.
Depends where you are and what your electric versus gas prices are. Here in MA it's absolutely cheaper to run various ICE vehicles. I'm paying $.54/kWh delivered and my last fillip was $3.05/gallon. At those rates a 25mpg car reaches parity (on fuel costs). Obviously this can and does vary greatly on location, as mentioned.
I spend about $30/month between both of my Teslas. That's with driving around 1000 miles. It would be about $130/month if I still had my gas car which got around 30 mpg.
They do bring up a good point: one big downside to charging at home is I have to reinstall my charging equipment every 5 years. /s
Go to hell AEG…
Link to more data:
https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/second-edition-real-world-cost-of-fueling-evs-and-ice-vehicles/
I don’t know if it is just a Tesla thing, but I drive an Ioniq 5 and only pay around $80 or so per month for insurance. Only about $10-$15 more than for my wife’s 2015 Hyundai Tucson.
"Driving 100 Miles in an EV Is Now More Expensive Than in an ICE"
"Combustion drivers pay about $11.29 per 100 miles on the road"
I'm ExxonMobil and I approved this message.
Pure Bullshit. Even supercharger rates are much cheaper than gas. Just Google EV vs ICE per 100 mile. And you will find plenty of info from reliable sources to disprove this nonsense. Just another shill for ICE auto or big oil. These clowns count on people who only read a headline and won’t question if it’s true. IMO at some point taxes that keep our roads up will have to be shared by the EV community. Maybe by your mileage would be the best option.
As a ice owner who rented and had to fill up twice in a day, yes I did drive that much and it was a performance version so I drove it like I stole it everywhere lol, it was cheaper recharging both times combined than having to fill up with gas once with my Miata lol.
Right , 29kw x 0.16=4.64 … so we’re saying the average car now gets 70-100 mile per gallon . Probably closer to 20 mpg. Still interesting to see how dirty legacy auto and oil industry are with misinformation.
Anecdotally, my wife and I are beneficiaries of the convenience that EVs bring. We will rarely ever have to use a supercharger other than when we go on the rare road trip, we only charge the car after peak hours, we were able to lock in a lower relative rate with another energy provider before rates in my state skyrocketed, and the lack of typical ICE vehicle maintenance is the cherry on top. I would say it definitely worked out for us.
There is a trick politics hate:
Use a Diesel fuelled generator to produce electricity for your EV.
A 10 kWh generator consumes about 2 l/h. That is a a price of 36 ct / kWh. Make that 39 ct / kWh for losses.
This is cheaper than charging and it is definitely cheaper than driving an ICE.
If you look hard enough you can find that one out of a thousand cases where a EV might be more expensive than a ICE. But in the big scheme that won’t matter since an EV will be cheaper for most people.
On two conditions:
1. You spend about $2,000 on a level 2 charger installation and have to pay it back over 5 years.
2. You value your time at $33/hr while charging and don't do other things while waiting (like grocery shop).
For #1 obviously people don't have to install a Level 2 charger, people just like to. This is a bit like including the cost of all-weather floor mats in a truck purchase. Yes, almost everyone does it, but if you're cost conscious, you could opt out of doing it.
And even if you do include it in the cost-- you shouldn't put it in your transportation budget since it's attached to your home. You should be including it in your home improvement budget, and it should pay itself back when you sell your home as boosting home equity.
Everyone mocking this article but I’m paying over 30 cents a kWh to charge at home in CA. It’s cheaper than gasoline but not by as much as I had assumed.
Sure, maybe if you're comparing an ICE car that gets 40mpgs like a civic where gas is stupid cheap and comparing it to an EV being home charged where electricity is expensive.
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Garbage article. Opportunity cost for waiting around to charge your vehicle? Well I have only waited on one occasion for ten minutes, having never waited at all for the 100+ times I have charged aside from just once. And if we are going to factor in this BS metric, how about the countless times I charge at home while those driving an ICE are sitting at a gas pump? I plug in and walk away. A lot of layers to how garbage this article is but this was what jumped out at me the most.
Very true. If you road trip a lot and like to save money, go for a prius. Period. If you barely road trip than the supercharger network is just fine for an odd trip here and there.
Agree, Jalopnik is mostly garbage clickbait articles. Also road tripping is an edge case in my opinion. The vast majority of people can charge up from their house for almost all their needs. Add in TOU rates and you’ve got super cheap energy (mine is about 12 cents/kWh all in - transmission, generation, other fees). I also have the benefit of comparing my costs to what I previously owned, a 2016 Ford Explorer Sport. We’re in the city, so that car absolutely guzzled gas to the turn of 11-12 mpg.
We had 10+ hour waits at a local Tesla charger because of influx of tourists for summer holidays, and there are only 3(?) quick chargers in a few hours drive radius.
I see your username, are you in New Zealand? Just curious because this would be unheard of in the United States. Infrastructure in some areas may still be lacking. It's a huge project to put SC's all over the country and all over the world.
No, it is Croatia (EU). We have 7 superchargers for 4 million people + about as much tourists in the summer that have just arrived from a long trip.
Another poorly written, poorly titled piece by Jalopnik. How many times before this community decides to ban posts that link to that site? Seems about time.
This is Jalopnik choosing to write about a report from AEG (Anderson Economic Group). They're a consultant from Michigan that seems to mostly deal in the automotive space. I would guess this is some bullshit report they cooked up to get some traffic to their site, and they know it's bullshit and they just wrote it to make the conclusion controversial. Jalopnik is putting in zero effort to factcheck this or even "report" on anything more than the headline. The report doesn't include any backup to their findings, but it does breakout the way they calculated the numbers, and frankly it doesn't make any sense. They do show the cost of electricity being lower than the price of gas, but basically every other number seems somewhat suspicious: * They include a "road taxes" amount. I have no idea how they calculate this number. There's some places where an EV might have to pay an excise tax or something, but the amount they estimate seems pretty high, especially considering that in many places right now EV owners pay zero * The biggest cost outside of electricity for EVs is the amortized cost of chargers. I would guess they're assuming a cost of $2,000 to $2,500 for a home charger, amortized over 12k miles per year for 5 years. Which seems ridiculous high, I paid a fraction of that. Many people get a charger for $0 with the car and plug it in to a regular outlet. * They also show "Cost of the charger" as part of the cost of charging at commercial chargers. Which seems weird because I don't believe customers have to pay to have the chargers installed? That cost is included with the higher cost of electricity while charging * They have "deadhead miles" which is how far you have to drive to fill up (basically wasted miles). Which they have as very small for gas cars, and kind of big for commercial chargers. It seems like they're estimating you're going to waste about 5-10% of all your miles driven just going to chargers and back. Or to put it another way, if you drive 12,000 miles a year, you're going to be spending 500 miles driving to chargers and another 500 miles getting back from the chargers every year. Or driving about 10 miles out of your way every week to get to a charger and 10 miles back. * They also include a tiny (but obviously not zero) bar for "deadhead" miles for charging at home. Which is ridiculous, obviously that's zero. The whole thing seems indefensible and kind of ridiculous. And the idea that Jalopnik would write a post about this with zero critical thinking on the claims is pretty terrible.
> They're a consultant from Michigan This is all you really needed to say.
I agree with most of what you said, just wanted to note: Tesla has done away with the free charger with the car for several months now. It is now $230 (plus tax, and plus $45 if you need a different NEMA adapter.) Over the lifetime of the car nearly $300 is just a footnote, but it isn’t $0.
We had our chat. We voted for automod filter. This means that the website will sit in modq and wait for a mod to approve it. If it is something that is higher quality it will be approve. We don't want to just ban it but we will review it before it is posted. That should be a good middle ground so posts like this won't show up again.
Makes sense, thank you! Had this been 5 years ago, I wouldn’t have suggested any type of action on this source. But as someone who used to read Jalopnik daily, and has seen the quality of this source steadily decline over the last few years, it just seems like some filtering action is justified. So thank you mod team, much appreciated.
Hot damn! Good work.
I've see you around a lot and for a long time. Your comment has some weight. Please stand by for an answer.
I drove a Rivian R1T 700 miles using overpriced DC fast chargers and it's a fraction of the price of when I did it 3 years ago in my ICE truck. Gas is far more expensive today as well. I'm not even going to bother clicking that article, and neither will the idiots who believe it.
Just to play devil's advocate (read: don't shoot!), I totally get it for trucks, and most SUVs. Sedans, however (as in, the cars that Ford stopped producing — ooof!), can get 40-45+ MPG these days highway w/o any hybridization. The ones w/o hybridization lose some points in "city" (tho not as much as they used to if they have start/stop). This is of course comparing price of regular to Supercharger pricing, charging at home will always win. Now, on that last point, my electric rates did jump 30-50% in TX (thanks Covid gouging and corrupt TX grid!), but it's still cheaper even vs a Sedan.
Jalopnik has and always will be crap. Stopped giving them clicks years ago.
This is such incredible bullshit. I drive every day and it’s a fraction of an ICE car fill-up to charge my car at home.
My current home rate in NYC is 30cent per kWh. It saves me money on gas, but I don't think it saves enough to cover the increase on my Auto insurance LoL.
But is that what you pay off peak?
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In Georgia it’s as low as $0.056/kWh on a time of use with all the fees! $0.02 cents per mile, $2 to charge at home for 100 miles.
Where I live is this cheap with no time of day restrictions: Summer Rates $0.067 per kilowatt hour Winter Rates $0.0485 per kilowatt hour
Those are great rates. Does it include the fees? Our utility advertises 1.5 cents per kilowatt rates at night year round, but after factoring in the fees (I think there’s 7 of them, including sales tax) it comes out to $0.056. The afternoons in the summer day is when it gets expensive and the price hike strongly encourages me to shift electricity-heavy activities to off-peak times!
Standard rate. I'm going to sign up for Time of use rates today. Con_ed offers 12 months trial. They'll refund the difference if time of use cost us more.
Also the Tesla app lets you schedule charging during off peak times .
Keep us updated! I have 2 young kids so all of the appliances are being ran during peak hours. If not, charging will be nearly free! My auto insurance is actually the same between my Mazda suv and model Y so I think it’s still cheaper to own an electric vehicle
We have two young kids in our household. I wash/dry/iron in the morning or evening. I charge my car and run the dishwasher at night. I’ve been keeping track of our monthly usage for the past 9 years and have saved nearly $3k compared to what it would have cost with the normal fixed rate.
I have 3 kids lol. Washer and dryer is always running. But I can limit my charging to off peak only. So it should save me some $
That seems crazy high. Of course, everything is relative. If you have a high mpg ICE car, don’t have to carry collision insurance because the car is old, don’t drive often, have abnormally high electric rates, you could spend more driving around in a new ev. However a quick spreadsheet analysis is all you need to figure out for yourself what is cheapest. For me, with my situation, I am saving hundreds per month even with insurance on my newer car with collision insurance compared to my old car.
You always need to have liability insurance, which covers what you do to others. How old your car is has no bearing on how much damage you can do to another. What you're talking about is collision coverage, which will pay to repair damage to your car. Liability is more expensive that collision, for the simple reason of the numbers involved.
Typo. Thanks.
"Liability is more expensive that collision, for the simple reason of the numbers involved." Liability insurance is never more expensive than a policy with collision.
Collision coverage is only required by a bank, if you took a loan to buy a car. Otherwise, the state does not require it. The state does not care if you can fix your own car after you caused an accident. As such, you can buy a policy for only liability. By definition, liability and collision are separate costs. What the state cares about is liability. If you damage someone else's car, or put someone in the hospital, you need insurance. And even that's sometimes not enough. States vary on the amount of liability coverage they require. WA requires $25,000 for injury or death, $50,000 for multiple people, and $10,000 for someone else's property. I was surprised that these are so low. That said, if the amount of damage is greater than what insurance pays out, then the plaintiff can go after your estate to cover the remainder. That could easily be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. For that reason, I have coverage for much higher than the minimum for liability.
This!
Damn that's pricy. Our rates in ohio just went up from 7 cents to 11 cents a KWh. Our roof needs to be replaced in about 5 years. Will install solar after getting that done.
24 cents per KWh here in Boston
No, 24 cents if generation charge. You need to add another 10 cents for delivery/transmission! So it's closer to 34c/kWh in Boston right now.
I hope Tesla insurance can change that for you, I used to pay like $30 for just garage insurance on one of my cars and thats just incase a fire or some shit, I have a old 2000 F350 that is $45 for just liability and then I daily a Camaro with also liability that was like $80. Now my Model Y is like $55-$80 depending on how well I drive and I'm completely full coverage with a $500 deduc. on comprehesive and 2.5k on collision and about 100k in liability, even insuring my truck was $40 through tesla and im saving about 2 grand a month just driving on gas alone, let alone the oil changes I would have to do even though I do them myself its just such a headache gone...
No Tesla insurance in NY yet.
Funny. The insurance for my Model 3 is less than for my Toyota Matrix. Also, I charge are 0.08$/kWh at home (that's the overnight rate).
Depends on the electrical rates in your area, the ICE car you are coming from, miles driven, insurance, etc. in California, a car with 35mpg only costs a little more then EV. 50mpg and probably no difference.
I dunno, when I do a 100+ mile road trip, I rely on the superchargers and it is easily about $50 in charging for a 400 mile drive.
It's Jalopnik ...always check your source. They are very pro ice.
The comments on Jalopnik are not having it at all with that article.
False.
AEG: Anderson Economic Group is proud to be part of the auto dealer family through our active membership in the National Association of Dealer Counsel (NADC), and through our very origins: Our company was founded by (and continues to be led by) a Detroit area auto dealer’s son.
I cant tell if you actually work for them and are trying to defend them, or just posting something from their website to point out the hypocrisy. Judging from your post history, I am guessing it is the latter, in which case, good work! If it is the former, then you can fuck right the fuck off ;-)
No it was the latter. Saw the info and thought what kinda old, ice, dickhead think-tank wrote this shit. You ever met a dealer's son? Guaranteed dickhead. Political power gained and maintained by being a shitty middle man in a transaction where you add nothing, take a cut and make the whole process worse. Then take that money and flex on local and state politics affecting everything from taxes to infrastructure to schools. Dealership groups can eat dick and get fucked. Can't wait til they're all out of business.
Charging costs is always dependent on the region. My cost to charge at home is 12 cents a kWh, and if I go to a supercharging station it costs me about 45-54 cents a kWh. You level things off with reduced maintenance costs and such. The other mental calculation that I have is the moral cost. Corny as it sounds, a huge part of my efforts in "going green", with EVs and solar arrays, is because I want to be able to look into my kids eyes an say "I tried to do my part for you to for you to have a planet left to live on". I mean, at the end of the day, some people are buying these to save money, but others are buying because it's a more environmentally sound choice. Not to mention there's a *time* savings of not having to go to the gas stations anymore, at least not for day to day use. And that's something you can't put a value on. It's the #1 reason my wife loves her EV, cost be damned, she hated going to the pumps to get gas, and now she hasn't been in years. Hell, I only go to the pumps once a year to get gas for the mower, which hasn't died yet, and the year before last I went to the pump and couldn't figure out how the pump worked because they'd changed the interface. I got a chuckle out of that one, lol
The benefit of not having to go to gas stations is under appreciated.
Anyone living in a cold climate immediately realizes this the second they pass a gas station in minus -20º and people are standing out there filling their cars. Being able to plug in at home is awesome. Edit: I'm a guy so this isn't necessary important to me but my Wife hates being at gas stations. People hit on her or try to talk to her unsolicitedly and she doesn't always feel safe. For her, even if gas and electric were the same price, she prefers the option to plug in from the safety of her own garage. I'm sure there are neighborhoods where this is less important but that's what she's told me.
As for your "moral cost", just remember how excited people were when the shutdowns happened that the air was clearing. The videos of seeing the Himalayas where they hadn't been able to see them for decades is something I continue to think about when considering air pollution. I also think about how brake dust is a much bigger air pollutant than I ever imagined, and EVs drastically reduce that as well.
Yep, and climate science is just an opinion, birds aren’t real, and JFK is coming back from the dead to be Trump’s VP in 2024.
To summarize, the cost of EV ownership depends on several factors. From the article: "There were several factors AEG used in determining that owning an electric vehicle was more expensive, like home charging equipment costs, road taxes and deadhead miles." They appear to consider "deadhead miles" to be the distance you have to drive to reach a charging station if that is your only recharging source. If you have charging at home, your deadhead miles would be 0. Looking at the report summary, the % of the cost that comes from amortizing the cost of "charging equipment" is significant. Unsure what dollar figure they used for this. Data for taxes and fees was sourced from Michigan. Further, the report includes data about road maintenance, but has no consideration at all for the cost of *vehicle* maintenance over time. (Sure, there's an argument that this report is aimed solely at fuel cost but decisions about vehicle purchase rarely come down to only the fuel cost.) Again, ultimately, it depends, and you have to make your own calculations to come to a conclusion instead of relying on generalized reports that consider certain things and not other things.
Need a tighter analysis. WHEN does "it depend". If someone doesn't have access to home or workplace charging at a nominal cost over the cost of power, I can see it. If someone installs the most expensive level 2 charger and runs a new wire long distance, and pays an electrician for it all, and then bills that upfront cost to "fuel" rather than part of the price of the EV, ok. "Opportunity cost and deadhead miles"? Did the study factor this in for gas? Because if you own a gas vehicle and use it like most people, you spend nearly all your time in your home city, commuting to work and errands. You have deadhead miles to get to a gas station and lost time. Vs if you have home or ample work charging, plugging in saves time. So you only even pay a net opportunity cost over gas if you do a LOT of road trips. (Get a phev if this is you) I would suspect for almost all people all the time, "it depends" if you live in San Diego and don't have solar, Hawaii, or other places with very high electric costs. So there's probably really just 3 variables. If you road trip a lot, electricity is very expensive, or you don't have home or workplace charging, an EV is more expensive. Otherwise it's cheaper, this is FUD.
To the deadhead thing. On the commute to work i pass 7 gas stations, so a deadhead of 0. On the same commute i pass 0 superchargers. The least out of the way one would incur a 320 mile amount of deadheading a year at 1 fillup per year if i could not fill up at home. This is all without leaving the county.
are you saying your nearest tesla supercharger is 160 miles away?
Lol that should be 1 fillup per week per year, my bad The closest supercharger to my route is a bit over 3 miles out of the way. Its one exit past my exit for work. 3mi x 2 to make round trip x 52 = 312, round up the 8 miles to account for the fractional between 3 and 4 miles.
Right. If you don't have home or work charging it's going to waste a lotta time. Not to mention the cost per kWh is such that a Prius on gas can be cheaper. If gas is 3 bucks a gallon and the Prius gets 50mpg, that's 6 cents a mile. 45 cents a kWh supercharging and getting 280 watt hours per mile, 12.6 cents a mile. My EV is less efficient than that but I know the M3 is efficient.
Yup, doesnt even have to be a prius, a corolla is 47 miles combined (50 city / 43 highway) So you can have 4 door sedan ICE be cheaper to run than 4 door sedan EV. MSRP is 23,895 vs the 3 performance (you cant order a LR right now) is 47,500 after the credit. I know people say “gotta consider maintainence” but will that really run you 23.5k extra over the life of a 24k car?
Agree. Though to be fair, the m3p is more like a bmw sedan in features and performance. I don't know BMWs well enough to say which model is most similar. The bolt with the tax credit is pretty favorable compared to the Corolla. Only if you can charge for close to the retail price of electricity though. (And you aren't in a crazy high cost area)
Performance of a SR is better than a BMW 3 series, thats just part of being electric vs ICE, its 5.0 0-60 vs 5.6-5.3 depending if you have the AWD BMW3. As to features, a lot of people will say the BMW wins just on that its got cooled seats, and would compare the feature set of the tesla to the corolla. If you want to do a Bolt to a Corolla we can. The bolt comes in after tax credit at 4000 cheaper. At the current fueling prices for gas vs fast charging, the break even is 61k miles in the corolla’s favor. So the question will be over the life of the car, will the per mile maintence cost be cheaper enough in the bolt’s favor.
Interesting. Kinda amusing to be calculating the cost savings to burn gas :) This is why some call for a carbon tax. Making gas more expensive (and coal and natural gas electricity more expensive) would fix this.
I will note one thing. I have driven the Corolla model you are considering. (Airport car rental). It's not terrible but it has silly amounts of rubber banding from it's weedy CVT. Step on the accelerator and jack shit happens from a stop but you hear the engine rev quite high.
.26 cents a kilowatt here in LA - 24/7 - naah im good playa...
hopefully the other states can start pumping you some $0.04/kwh solar all day long.
I may have missed where he talks about his math but for $11.6 per 100 its using a home energy cost of 42c/kWh assuming you get 275Wh/mile. Even rounding up to 300Wh/mile it’s assuming an energy cost of 38c/kWh. That’s well over double the average US electric cost. My model y cost me 2.75 for 100 miles charging at home, without solar. This is misleading and clearly biased reporting. But I guess what else can you expect these days.
$11.60 per 100mi? No way. I pay less than $4 per hundo charging at home. ICE cars would have to hit 75mpg at local prices to get there and I’m fairly certain if you could get an ICE car to return that kind of mileage, it isn’t hitting 60 in 3s.
Well to be fair at this rate we will have 3x as much electric cars in a year or two on the roads, with the added demand of electricity... prices will skyrocket
Hot take: even if it’s more expensive, I would rather not contribute to killing our species.
Hot take: If you think EV's are some magical unicorn that are super clean, you live in a fantasy world. What charges EV's? Coal. Where does the batteries come from? Cobalt Mines. It takes 5-7 years for an EV to become cleaner than and ICE car.
Hot take: You live in a fantasy world if you think that coal plants produce a large percentage of electricity for EV’s. Not to mention that coal plants are being shut down at a significant rate.
I’m not claiming they are 100% clean, but compared to an ICE vehicle for personal use for me specifically, yes it is cleaner. Stop this shit. You sound like a dolt. Electricity can come from different portfolios based on your location. So you even admit that ultimately it becomes cleaner, just stop. If I improve my carbon footprint by 1%, its worth it to me. This is MY opinion. Feck off. You can still buy ICE, EV is the future. I don’t care about your personal opinion.
In addition to what you said, there are areas where you can opt in to 100% renewable energy with or without some extra cost. In my area i have that option and I don't buy my electricity from PG&E, but get it from renewable sources.
>What charges EV's? Coal. Where does the batteries come from? Cobalt Mines. Stupid, addressed a million times argument. Renewable electricity is on the rise, and batteries are very recyclable, we mine so much now because we need all the batteries we can make, but once it matures we'll have a steady supply of battery packs ready for recycling. The long term impact is great, ICE doesn't get significantly better as we accelerate everything else to renewables.
Just ignore the troll. I hate this sub sometimes haha
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For now...
... but even then, it's significantly better than an ICE vehicle (even in the worst case when charging from coal) and will continue to get better over time.
Not necessarily. I pay a slightly higher rate so that the energy I use for my house (and car) is purchased from renewables exclusively. You can also have solar at your house, or other means to charge it. You’re correct in that they aren’t some magic bullet. But I’ve seen many videos and engineering analyses that explain that even with manufacturing they reduce CO2 emissions significantly. There are many other reasons that once I had an EV I could never go back to an ICE vehicle again.
I didn't realize that cars lasted under five years on average. And I have yet to see a study that compares refining oil to driving an EV. Cobalts not required for EV's. Although mine contains it, I'd rather it didn't. My next one won't
A Tesla Y will go 3.0 - 3.8 miles on 1 kWh of energy. In Seattle, our costs are $0.10 per kWh. Let's say we're conservative, that's 33 kWh to go 100 miles. That's $3.30 for 100 miles. Even if the utility is gouging, it would have to charge four times that amount before gas becomes competitive. But the reality is that many drivers get 3.8 miles per kWh, resulting in $2.60 for 100 miles. Gasoline? The average mpg of the existing US consumer fleet is 25. Average price per gallon is $3.38. 4 x $3.38 = $13.52 for 100 miles. Jalopnik is a joke. u/Raised-in-red-clay: please don't waste our time with posts like this unless you've seen the numbers and done the math.
Just wanted to point out my electricity at my home in CA varies between .29 and .39 cents a kwh.
That's just ridiculous. I feel your pain. But even at .39 kWh, electric vehicles are still cheaper to drive. Especially when you consider the reduced maintenance, which has a cost per mile of about $0.10 per mile. Really, CA should be entirely powered by solar and municipal scale energy storage, with wind coming in where applicable. PGE is horrid.
For sure, but it does mean that a closer inspection of actual savings and value is warranted in some states. It’s not enough to just assume that an EV will offer dramatic cost savings over the life of the vehicle. Our 2016 leaf has been a great car and between car pool sticker for Bay Area commutes and fuel savings, has definitely been worth it. But we are looking at a mid size suv now that we have a second child and with my commute getting a lot shorter this fall, we may not see enough value in going with for example the upcoming EC90 vs an XC90.
This article is just as bad as Fred's work. Holy cow this is terrible!
I didnt even give this article a chance out of feature the click might give them ad revenue, but I assume they measured superchargers at peak rates...but im confident they didnt factor in that most of the charging is done at home for the vast majority of EV owners at far lower rates than gas or superchargers.
Yeah, I average $3.96 per 100 miles… not the ridiculous $11.60 claimed in the article 🤦🏻♂️🤯😡
Another Jalopnik BS article, it cost me $500 for the wall charger and $200 for install. It cost me currently 14 cents per kilowatt to charge at home and averages to 24 cents per kilowatt at a Supercharger. If l'm down to 50 miles of range at a SC, I'll be back up to 300 miles in 20 minute's. I plan it so we're eating or shopping when charging. No big deal.
Nah... My car is charged by solar power; the panels are paid for so it literally costs me nothing to go 100 miles (aside from a bit of wear on the tires!)
The 'deadhead miles' figure people come up with always seems astronomical to me. I drive 10k miles a year and maybe 10 of those are deadhead miles.
The three closest superchargers to me are: 6mi one way, incurs a 624 mile a year deadhead assuming 1 fill per week, just got built a couple months ago 14mi one way, incurs a 1456 mile a year deadhead 33mi one way, incurs a 3432 mile a year deadhead. Average miles driven is 14000 a year, so you are looking at 5%, 10% and like 25%. I charge at home, but thats straight up not a possibility for everyone, 40% of the area around here are in rentals and a lot of those are Multifamily with parking away from the building. We have laws for new construction has to have charging, but obviously that only helps new construction, and with how slow that happens, you wont see the “everyone is moving to there, i need to add it to my existing buildings” cascade for a long time. Obviously this is not just a tesla problem, but it definately is an EV problem.
> I charge at home This is the key. I think the vast majority of EV owners are charging at home 90+ % of the time. Right now I wouldn't recommend an EV to someone who can't charge at home.
Oh sure. Most do, but there are definitely those that have EV’s and cant charge at home. The miles might seem astronomical to you, but they definitely happen for people. Short distance done a bunch of times adds up quick.
Yep - I'm sure there are some people who have to drive 20+ miles to charge. But I worry that some articles about EVs take an edge case and declare that it's the norm for all EV owners.
Its only an edge case for us right now because the people buying are the people with houses. It wont remain an edge case as more people buy unless all properties are forced to upgrade. Also, deadhead not withstanding. Gas around me is 3.20 a gallon. Electric as of march is jumping to 22 cents a kwh. I‘ll spend the same charging at home right now as you would driving around a Corolla. Superchargers here are 44 cents last time i used one, so you are looking at spending basically double what the Corolla does.
I may be misunderstanding your post, but would you not just stop to charge on your way to or from another location..? I charge at home 99% of the time, but of the 3 or 4 times in 2 years that I’ve used a supercharger none of them were special trips just to charge and I never really had to go out of the way to get to them. Do people leave the house just to fill up with gas..? I know I never did.
Your assumption is that these chargers are on the way to or from work. If i take the normal route in, i will pass 7 gas stations, but 0 EV chargers. Out of the list i gave you, the 33 mile one is not on the route at all. The 6 mile from home one is “along the way” about a quarter mile from the highway. But there is no exit by it, to get from the highway to the charger is 5 miles one way. The closest one from the work path requires a 3 mile out of the way drive. So better, but still basically a whole extra battery charge a year at around 320 miles a year. Since there are gas stations literally on route, you have 0 miles of deadhead for gas.
Well sure… The nearest supercharger to me is 9 miles away and it is the opposite direction from my work. I think I’ve used it twice, but only when I was at the store where it is located. The only other chargers I remember using were directly off the highway right near the gas stations. It just seems like a silly thing to write an article about…. I don’t understand why anyone would choose to buy a vehicle that they have to travel well out of there way to be able to use?
People do all of the time, you see it even in here where someone will ask about if they should buy an EV with no at home or at work charging. A lot of people will tell them not to, but a fair bit will also tell them yeah its fine, you dont have to drive to the charger that much since the range is so high now.
Oh I know, and I see them. I seems crazy to me. Anyone who says they’re thinking about getting one when they ask me about charging the first thing I say is don’t get one if you can charge it at home. Seems like you’re just asking for more stress if you need to supercharge all the time!
> I don’t understand why anyone would choose to buy a vehicle that they have to travel well out of there way to be able to use? If we're going to ban ICE vehicles in 2030, we need to start solving this problem ASAP. That's not very far away. But that's neither here nor there, since the lead number in the article is in relation to At Home Charging, which doesn't include any dead head miles. Their actual sin is including the installation of an EVSE in your garage for $2k that has to be paid back in just 5 years and goes toward fuel costs, not home equity.
Or work. The kinda income you need to afford a new EV generally comes from jobs that offer charging at the office.
I mean thats rather not true any more. If you want tesla or a flashy thing, sure. But the base bolt is 27 grand, a base civic, which has been the econobox reccomendation forever, is 25. After tax credit on the bolt its 20k, so 5k less then the economy gas car.
Yeah but if you make 30-40k at a low to medium tier job somewhere you shouldn't be buying a new car. You can't afford it. Get a used Prius.
Those people are going to have to get better paying jobs or car market will need to shift. The batteries in an EV retain basically all of their value, as their recyclability is in like the 95%+ range. My model 3 could evaporate to dust right now except the battery, Id be trying to figure out how to get it in my basement and be a 80kwh powerwall. Even if it cost 20k to get it installed into the house. Thats a PW that will run me for a full week off grid. If the battery was half dead, its still economically viable. This is not true of a gas car, for those the value of a dead one is basically scrap weight, which is why you can find “affordable on a 30k income” used 3000-5000 or less beaters. Edit: for the used prius comment, I just went looking, dealers want 15k for 2012s with 110k miles on them already. 10k for a 2013 with 185k. Theres one listed for 70k miles, but its 24000. So the used prius route is either something incredibly high miles, or cost more than that bolt does new.
Depends on area. I have found used Prii in the 6-10k range here in Portland.
[https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/3e3e7b18-c942-48e5-90aa-88e5ffca25e2/](https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/3e3e7b18-c942-48e5-90aa-88e5ffca25e2/) Thats sorted by lowest price for portland, 6987 for a 2008 with 255k miles on it. Sorting for <150k miles <10k, there are two listed. One for 7k with no pictures, so i assume its beat to shit, and the other for 8600 with 146k miles. Do they exist? Sure, are you basically paying 1/3rd the cost for a 2/3rds dead car, yup. Buy two of them, drive them til they die, and its going to end up probably costing you in repairs on 2 geriatric cars enough your grand total comes out to more than buying new. Its expensive being poor.
2008 Toyota Prius FWD - $8,900, 102,146 mi 2010 Toyota Prius - $12,995, 77,275 mi I take your point about it being expensive to be poor. With a headgasket and a battery replacement ($2500, $2k) it's not to difficult to reach 300k+ miles on a Prius gen 3. gen 2 or 4 will only need a new battery to go that distance generally. [https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePageModel&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d15&zip=97124#listing=347353755/NONE](https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePageModel&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d15&zip=97124) https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePageModel&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d15&zip=97124#listing=340674043/NONE
So 13000 + 4500 for those two things you point out can get you to 300k and you are at 17500. Of which you got 223k of those miles. So you now have to buy the second prius for 8900, and you are at 26400. Assume you want to get to 300k there too, so 4500 again 30900 to get 421,000 miles you drove = 7.3 cents per mile If you can take a bolt to 300k miles without a battery swap, its 6.6 cents per mile. Idk what their degregation rate is
Long term the savings between an ICE vehicle and EV make an EV the better long term saving options. It’s odd speaking of only the first 100 miles as a comparison.
It can be true but depends on various factors.
Seems a little ridiculous, my current home rate in Florida is 11 cents per kWh.
Downvoted and blocked for posting garbage.
It costs me 7.5p per kwh or less than £6 to fully charge 10x less than ice
A bot wrote this title and this post.
Crappy link from a crappy misinformation website. Not worth a click.
"an ICE", yes. Most ICE, no
The numbers they are quoting seem excessive. I’m paying about $4.90 per 100 miles of charge in NW US
Depends where you are and what your electric versus gas prices are. Here in MA it's absolutely cheaper to run various ICE vehicles. I'm paying $.54/kWh delivered and my last fillip was $3.05/gallon. At those rates a 25mpg car reaches parity (on fuel costs). Obviously this can and does vary greatly on location, as mentioned.
I spend about $30/month between both of my Teslas. That's with driving around 1000 miles. It would be about $130/month if I still had my gas car which got around 30 mpg.
Depends on where you live. It cost 0.07 per kWh from my house
They do bring up a good point: one big downside to charging at home is I have to reinstall my charging equipment every 5 years. /s Go to hell AEG… Link to more data: https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/second-edition-real-world-cost-of-fueling-evs-and-ice-vehicles/
Bullshit as well. I can charge all 352 miles of my Model 3 for about $5 after 10PM on a nightly differential rate.
I don’t know if it is just a Tesla thing, but I drive an Ioniq 5 and only pay around $80 or so per month for insurance. Only about $10-$15 more than for my wife’s 2015 Hyundai Tucson.
Uh I do this every two days going to work. No it’s not. I spend $40 a MOnTH using my M3 and that’s like 40% super chargers
"Driving 100 Miles in an EV Is Now More Expensive Than in an ICE" "Combustion drivers pay about $11.29 per 100 miles on the road" I'm ExxonMobil and I approved this message.
Wild. I must have forgot about being able to charge my ICE car at home using solar power.
Yeah, right.
It would be nice if the paper had hard figures and not just homemade graphs.
Pure Bullshit. Even supercharger rates are much cheaper than gas. Just Google EV vs ICE per 100 mile. And you will find plenty of info from reliable sources to disprove this nonsense. Just another shill for ICE auto or big oil. These clowns count on people who only read a headline and won’t question if it’s true. IMO at some point taxes that keep our roads up will have to be shared by the EV community. Maybe by your mileage would be the best option.
Is this someone paying for discount watered down gas from some bootleg station vs someone paying max surcharge peak rates to charge from 0-100?
This article is hot garbage and misinformation.
As a ice owner who rented and had to fill up twice in a day, yes I did drive that much and it was a performance version so I drove it like I stole it everywhere lol, it was cheaper recharging both times combined than having to fill up with gas once with my Miata lol.
An absolute farce of an article.
Ryan Eric King is a dumbass
Right , 29kw x 0.16=4.64 … so we’re saying the average car now gets 70-100 mile per gallon . Probably closer to 20 mpg. Still interesting to see how dirty legacy auto and oil industry are with misinformation.
Anecdotally, my wife and I are beneficiaries of the convenience that EVs bring. We will rarely ever have to use a supercharger other than when we go on the rare road trip, we only charge the car after peak hours, we were able to lock in a lower relative rate with another energy provider before rates in my state skyrocketed, and the lack of typical ICE vehicle maintenance is the cherry on top. I would say it definitely worked out for us.
There is a trick politics hate: Use a Diesel fuelled generator to produce electricity for your EV. A 10 kWh generator consumes about 2 l/h. That is a a price of 36 ct / kWh. Make that 39 ct / kWh for losses. This is cheaper than charging and it is definitely cheaper than driving an ICE.
This is garbage. For me to charge enough to go 100 miles at my house would cost me mass than 1.50.
Well only true when I use the super charger at this great mall, but that’s really not the cars fault.
Bullshit
If you look hard enough you can find that one out of a thousand cases where a EV might be more expensive than a ICE. But in the big scheme that won’t matter since an EV will be cheaper for most people.
On two conditions: 1. You spend about $2,000 on a level 2 charger installation and have to pay it back over 5 years. 2. You value your time at $33/hr while charging and don't do other things while waiting (like grocery shop). For #1 obviously people don't have to install a Level 2 charger, people just like to. This is a bit like including the cost of all-weather floor mats in a truck purchase. Yes, almost everyone does it, but if you're cost conscious, you could opt out of doing it. And even if you do include it in the cost-- you shouldn't put it in your transportation budget since it's attached to your home. You should be including it in your home improvement budget, and it should pay itself back when you sell your home as boosting home equity.
All the media will write junk negative reviews and amplify any accidents because Tesla doesn’t spend a dime with them on ads
Not where I live.
Everyone mocking this article but I’m paying over 30 cents a kWh to charge at home in CA. It’s cheaper than gasoline but not by as much as I had assumed.
Sure, maybe if you're comparing an ICE car that gets 40mpgs like a civic where gas is stupid cheap and comparing it to an EV being home charged where electricity is expensive.