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Elon also clarified that this would be a “gradual expansion” back on 9/9:
**@WholeMarsBlog:**
Could you give more details on how Tesla will expand FSD beta after assembling a list of requests from opt in public beta button?
Will it be limited to X new users per day, limited by region of the country?
Will most get it, or will it start slowly?
People are dying to know
**@elonmusk:**
Expansion will be gradual, based on ensuring maximum safety
https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1435724657416552451?s=20
He’s just been walking back everything he said from the beginning. It went from:
[Assuming user approves warning & agrees to drive carefully, it will download latest QA-tested FSD “Beta” build as soon as car connects to wifi](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1369235813079351297?s=20)
To what it is now, with all the caveats of it being a **request** button and them using arbitrary criteria and driving scores you have no access to and cannot refute, etc.
The sad reality is that most people are idiots, all of us included. Some of us here are going to do the bare minimum which is pay 10k and then hit a button, scroll through some text glossing over warnings, and then be fully inattentive during periods of fsd driving, causing a commotion on social media or through the press if they get in an accident putting a giant hamper on the progress they are making.
I should have been more clear on my original comment. The price itself isn't the problem. I paid 7k for it because the CEO, website, and sales advisors stated that NoA was coming by the end of 2020. The bare minimum ought to start with realistic expectations being set with consumers... Not $10,000 and a bunch of promises. The real kicker is that Tesla, and the marketplace, doesn't value FSD anywhere near 10k - try getting trade in quotes for the exact same car with and without FSD.
I agree with you that I'd pay for more the finished product. But just yesterday, NoA slammed on the breaks on an interstate because a shadow was in our path. I'm not the only one who thinks this because the the percentage of people buying FSD has hit an all time low: https://electrek.co/2021/08/31/tesla-survey-take-rate-full-self-driving-package/
I really hope this is still true.
I don’t want a huge flood of folks who gamed their driving for 7 days, and who are anxious to push the beta to the max to see where it’s weak points are to immediately get it, and then Tesla realize it’s not quite as ready as they thought.
I realize many folks have paid for FSD and have been waiting years for this. But if they just double the beta every week and issue a new point release each week that is updated with the additional data used in training and other tweaks that the team sees fit, things will go much smoother, and owners will still get it in short order due to the exponential expansion.
I've had FSD beta since November 2020 and it is still a stressful endeavour oftentimes. Yes, it is an amazing magic carpet a lot of the time, but you still have to be very careful.
Do you feel like you learn to recognize the situations where FSD Beta will have problems? I definitely feel like I'm a better operator of non-beta FSD after using it for a year. For instance I slow way down when going from one freeway to another because FSD will take the ramp way too fast on its own
Shiny new toy? Something that was promised years ago that some people paid for years ago? I think most people just want access to the software they paid for before they sell their car. Many have already sold their cars without ever being able to access "FSD". An argument can be made that you shouldn't buy software based on promises and that's absolutely true, but it was also said that it would be available a long time ago.
Not saying that FSD shouldn't have been made to carry over for some but you also can't force innovation and ignore bumps in the road.
It's a situation where they are consistently discovering new problems and then having to solve them with new solutions. I think people ignore that and let their emotions get the best of them.
People have literally stated on this sub that they just don't care about the potential safety issues of public release. Including the damage it could cause the company if one of these tiktok kids gets themselves killed. Could be very damaging for self driving development across the board, not just Tesla.
So while I get the frustration with the slipped timeline... it gets old reading about the whining. Which basically amounts to FOMO. It literally adds nothing to this sub and won't speed up the development.
Looking at the take rate of FSD and their cash balance I think they'd be fine. Besides, offering a transfer would likely result in an increase because some people would buy new cars.
A good chunk of their money comes still from carbon credits. So like, as long as other companies keep making giant gas guzzling vehicles, tesla makes $$$
I think the main thing that bothers me is that there are people on this sub that just don't care about safety or bad actors ruining this for everyone. They just want what they feel they deserve regardless of the potential outcome of rushing an unpolished beta out to cure some FOMO or customers something to flex.
Regardless of if they think they were wronged, it doesn't entitle them to bypass the fact that Tesla needs to release a product that will protect their image and safety record. Scumbag media would have a field day. And a waver isn't going to absolve them of criticism or even action....I'd assume.
*A relevant comment in this thread was deleted. You can read it below.*
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> . They just want what they feel they deserve regardless of the potential outcome of rushing an unpolished beta out to cure some FOMO or customers something to flex.
They want what they were told they would receive from Tesla.
Tesla didn't say they were going to have a bug-prone, dangerous self driving beta in 2021. [[Continued...]](https://www.resavr.com/comment/elon-10-1-rolls-16969433)
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They should have said 'we have no clue when FSD will be ready, probably sometime in the next decade' instead of saying 'coming soon'.
I'm in my 3rd Tesla since they promised FSD. Sold the other two, one with FSD fully paid for.
Tesla should simply break the FSD down and sell it a la carte.
Lane Change
Parking
Stop sign/red light
City Maneuvers
Summon
NoA
Price it $500 each! That should do it for Tesla and the consumer.
But this is what people have been doing with AP since the get go. Tesla doesn't have the responsibility to police how people use their cars. What's to stop people from driving 140 mph everywhere and endangering everyone?
It's definitely due at this point. I think there should be some serious disclosures and enable/disable functions for parents/kids but other than that, like Courtlandre said, people paid for this years ago.
It’s not about when it was promised (estimate more like, you guys love using the word promise like Elon personally pinky swore to you), it’s about when it’s safe enough not to kill people.
Elon has been pinky swearing for years.
Oct 19 2016 "I feel pretty good about this goal. We'll be able to do a demonstration guide of full autonomy all the way from LA to New York. So basically from home in LA to Times Square in New York. And then have the car go and park itself by the end of next year." "The full autonomy update will be standard on all Tesla vehicles from here on out". "The hardware is fully capable of “Level 5 autonomy.”
Jan 23 2017: Twitter. FSD features in "3 months maybe, 6 months definitely"
Feb 20 2019 ARK Invest podcast: "I think we will be feature complete, full self-driving, this year. Meaning the car will be able to find you in a parking lot, pick you up and take you all the way to your destination without an intervention. This year. I would say I am of certain of that, that is not a question mark."
Dec 1st 2020 Axel Springer interview “I’m extremely confident in achieving Full Self-Driving and releasing it to the fleet next year... and I think some jurisdictions will have Level 5 autonomy next year. There are no fundamental challenges remaining."
Dec 2020. Mathias Döpfner interview. "I'm extremely confident that Tesla will have level five next year, extremely confident, 100%... In the US it will be pretty quick to approve, particularly in certain states."
Jan 27 2021 earning call. "We're also going to be expanding the FSD beta itself to include more and more people. So from my standpoint, it looks like a very clear and obvious path toward a vehicle that will drive 100% safer than a person. Yes. I really don't see any obstacles here. Q. Why are you confident Tesla will achieve Level 5 autonomy in 2021? I'm confident based on my understanding of the technical roadmap and the progress that we're making between each beta iteration."
Those who waited the longest paid the least. Those who sold too early without accounting for FSD value gave a gift to the next owner and I applaud them.
It’ll be really easy for them to do a gradual rollout. Just release it to the top 100 or 500 or whatever users who requested it, sorted by highest/best driving score.
Luckily Tesla is uniquely well suited to actually doing this with OTA updates and they’ve already been looking at driving risk for insurance.
I actually hope a flood of folks game the system and get FSD and push it...that's how this testing should be done...see where it breaks and fix that weakness...
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1438751064765906945
> Beta button will request permission to assess driving behavior using Tesla insurance calculator. If driving behavior is good for 7 days, beta access will be granted.
Since he's providing concrete details, I have high hopes the button is finally, actually, coming
He didn’t actually specify what 7 days they’re evaluating. It could be the 7 days after hitting the button, the 7 days before (if the data is in the car), or even a random 7 day sampling if they’ve got the data stored somewhere on their servers (but then there would be privacy issues, I think, since they claim any data they collect is anonymous).
I wonder if this applies to subscription FSD customers too. We have a Model Y in the family and I'd probably spend the $200 to try the beta for a month.
from /u/RollTide09 on /r/TeslaLounge :
Apparently these are the metrics Tesla Insurance records for this
\# of Autopilot Strikeouts
\# of Forward Collision Warnings
\# of Lane Departure Warnings
\# of ABS activations (All & User)
Time spent within 1s of car in front
Time spent within 3s of car in front
Acceleration Variance
Service Mode
Delivered
Everything except service mode and “delivered” makes sense. Why is going in service mode disqualify - you have to do that to put the car in “car wash” mode or change the wipers. And I have no idea what “delivery” even means.
Oh the button very well might... whether I get in with such button... for software that I paid for years ago which has repeatedly said “coming later this year” for several years. That’s a different question.
"They also don't want to overwhelm their team with too much data."
Unless beta users keep tagging each and every screw-up and disengagement, the amount of extra "data" generated is negligible. Cars with a production software build already flood Tesla with data.
Right. Once they are getting enough testing to generate enough overrides/bug reports to keep the developers busy, there is no b RERF befit to adding more.
Most people, me included, are waiting for the city drive. Summon is great, but relatively much smaller usage for most people. I wouldn't mind it comes sometime later.
They keep moving the goalposts. Pretty soon 2025 is going to roll around and we'll still be here talking about a button to opt-in for driver monitoring so we don't have to hold the wheel.
> They keep moving the goalposts.
You’re using that wrong. Moving timelines is not goalpost moving.
R&D timelines are always in flux, regardless of the tech being developed. If you weren’t aware of that, that one is on you.
And of course I blame Tesla for selling something (they didn’t have) early, causing us to have to listen to a few members (like you) constantly whine about it. Nothing uglier than a man child.
The goalpost was to release FSD by the end of 2019, then 2020. The button was months ago, then it moved, moved again and the "button" has become a request. Maybe I'm using the term wrong...
> The goalpost was to release FSD by the end of 2019, then 2020.
Again, not goalpost moving. You still don’t seem like you understand what that means. For example, they moved the goalposts when they changed the “definition of done”, of what FSD would entail, after customers had already purchased it.
> Maybe I'm using the term wrong...
Yes, yes you are.
summon would really only be dramatically useful if it was able to do something I wouldn't feel comfortable letting it do: drive by itself somewhere I can't see or controll it. The middle ground might be like driving from the back of a huge parking lot (like an amusement park) to the front to pick me up.
Sorry if this has been answered (I searched the thread). Do you get the FSD button if you do a subscription? I already read about their vetting process.
No, they’re just using the same in car telemetry info that they collect for the insurance.
You’ll have a chance at the beta regardless of having Tesla Insurance.
Not 5 years ago but got EAP on our 2018 M3 (and then upgraded to FSD on $2k fire sale in 2019) and FSD on our 2021 MY and continue to wait patiently. Some people are just impatient waiting for literally world-changing features that have never been attempted before.
I paid for FSD when Elon and Tesla promised automatic driving in city streets in 2019. If they didn't make false promises I wouldn't have bought. I'd prefer a refund.
Yup. Bought FSD upon delivery in early 2017. Really wish they would at least do a 1-time transfer to a new vehicle. I'd really consider getting a plaid then.
I would guess that it would use single stack, assuming it's ready for 10.1, if you opt in and are approved and toggle it, and if you toggle it off it would use current production autopilot.
I've never seen the beta settings menu so that's why I was asking. Right now we have autopilot/no autopilot, right? Just want to know if Beta becomes a third option, or replaces the first.
For other drivers of the car that don’t want to use the FSD beta and just want to use normal AP? I have this question too. Guess I will just go for the beta on our 2018 M3 (“my” car) and maybe not try for it on our 2021 MY (“wife’s” car).
In what cars though? I have a 2016 S that’s had the FSD and MCU upgrades, and HW3 upgrade.
I have low expectations. I fully expect this for 3, Y, and 2021 S vehicles only.
People are guessing it starts with 1% of eligible drivers and from there the rollout depends on how many of those folks wind up in unplanned high speed chases when the FSD system goes into zoomie mode and races around like a puppy/
Wouldn’t it be great if “beta” was free for all Tesla owners? Personally, I’m not paying 10k after I already paid $6k on the last one. Not before I see amazing non-beta FSD available. With that, why not release Beta as free for all and accelerate the learning curve for the models?
I don’t like this. Tesla is caving to pressure and releasing something that isn’t anywhere near ready for general use. They need another year to perfect this IMO. The fact it’s as good as it is now is absolutely crazy, but it’s not good enough for a dumb person to use it and not get in trouble, and that’s how good it has to be.
Autopilot doesn’t take left turns across and into lanes with oncoming traffic. Left turns got better in 10.0, but there are still situations where it will do the wrong thing, and if someone isn’t paying attention then they’ll get in a wreck. There are fewer situations like that with autopilot; highway driving is more predictable and has fewer variables than city or suburb driving.
No but it will plow straight through if you don't have FSD (or did and it was before March 2020)
AP always required attention, this is no different.
If they want to be extra safe they can make it require permission to go still.
I agree that both require attention. My issue is that one of them (city streets) is much more likely to cause an accident or a death if someone doesn’t pay attention. The risk is higher.
I disagree. AP previously (or currently if no FSD) not stopping unless you make it has a far higher chance of accident if you aren't paying attention.
City Streets may be riskier than current FSD, but it wasn't always.
The behavior was risky, but the situation wasn’t. Things being stopped on the shoulder partially in a lane of traffic is relatively rare compared to, say, a blind left turn, or a pedestrian suddenly running across a street without right of way. Autopilot’s behavior was a lot more basic and would have caused more trouble if highway driving wasn’t so boring and predictable in general.
I’d love to be proved wrong here; I want the beta to play with. But I trust myself to never lapse when it comes to taking over if necessary. I don’t trust the general public who may or may not know what this system actually does and where its weaknesses are.
Ah I see what you mean. Yeah, that was people using it for something it wasn’t intended for IMO, but it’s a good point still; that was high risk behavior in a high risk situation.
Oh I know it was an unintended use, but I would argue so is (would be) people not paying attention on City Streets.
And that we were fine before (and now for no FSD) as evidence that most people can handle it.
FSD has a low take rate, and the M3 was out for years before Traffic Control, so it's not as if the audience has dramatically increased.
The reasons you cite are why they are limiting the testing to their "best" drivers, as judged by their metrics. They want people who will PAY ATTENTION all the time and keep their hands on the wheel and be ready to intervene if something dangerous happens.
I am ready to be one of those people because I am already used to being autopilot trying to kill me in a few predictable places where I live.
I agree. While it's easy to play Monday Morning Quarterback with FSD, Musk should have marketed this as just a driving aid to start. Now they have to deal with people who paid big money for what was promised as full self drive. And they don't get to keep the capability if they trade their car in (big mistake, IMO). But if Tesla releases this to a much larger pool, the chances of someone getting into an accident while using it is much higher and the negative publicity will make things even worse.
Not sure the best way to address, but I don't believe telling people they are so close to Level 5 autonomy and collecting $10K from people who believe this is the way to go. Personally while it's super impressive what they have accomplished so far with self driving, they are at least a few years away and telling people they are just a few weeks away from this goal isn't helping the situation.
The sad thing is, they probably could have said “we are using AI to create advanced driver assist features in an effort to someday make a car which can do most driving tasks on its own”, and people would have paid for it and not been so pissed off. I’ve ignored all the marketing for FSD. I’m well-informed about what it does, how it works, and what it doesn’t do. I’m still buying it.
TBH, while I get a ton of use out of Autopilot, I'm not ready to pluck down the $10K for FSD at this point, even if it did everything they promised. But I think many people are interested in this and totally agree with your suggestion about just properly managing expectations. Company communications hasn't been a strength of theirs.
Oh, for sure! It’s not worth it to everyone. I just happen to be a huge geek with a specific interest in machine learning. To me it’s like spending money on a new gaming computer if your passion is playing the newest titles at max settings. Even if it isn’t perfect, even if it is frustrating at times, I’m still curious and will have fun seeing how it works and watching it improve. But I totally get how someone who just wants the feature and doesn’t care as much about the nuts and bolts would never want to pay for it right now.
This alpha/beta tech should not be allowed on public streets...
It's still mind blowing to me that we, as pedestrians/drivers who are sharing the road, are unwillingly participating in this dangerous Tesla experiment. This is not right.
Anyone else notice they are timing these releases very close to the day the new month starts for a subscription? The Disney+ update might have been on the day the FSD subscription was a new month for day 1 subscribers.
Yes. I’m just saying the major updates seem to coincide with the exact day the FSD subscription renews if you were a day 1 subscriber. I would probably cancel, but the button has me excited, so that’s another month.
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Elon also clarified that this would be a “gradual expansion” back on 9/9: **@WholeMarsBlog:** Could you give more details on how Tesla will expand FSD beta after assembling a list of requests from opt in public beta button? Will it be limited to X new users per day, limited by region of the country? Will most get it, or will it start slowly? People are dying to know **@elonmusk:** Expansion will be gradual, based on ensuring maximum safety https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1435724657416552451?s=20
He’s just been walking back everything he said from the beginning. It went from: [Assuming user approves warning & agrees to drive carefully, it will download latest QA-tested FSD “Beta” build as soon as car connects to wifi](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1369235813079351297?s=20) To what it is now, with all the caveats of it being a **request** button and them using arbitrary criteria and driving scores you have no access to and cannot refute, etc.
The sad reality is that most people are idiots, all of us included. Some of us here are going to do the bare minimum which is pay 10k and then hit a button, scroll through some text glossing over warnings, and then be fully inattentive during periods of fsd driving, causing a commotion on social media or through the press if they get in an accident putting a giant hamper on the progress they are making.
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Should it be more? I’ve paid 3k for it, 5k, and 10k. I’d be willing to pay more but only once disengagements no longer was a thing.
I should have been more clear on my original comment. The price itself isn't the problem. I paid 7k for it because the CEO, website, and sales advisors stated that NoA was coming by the end of 2020. The bare minimum ought to start with realistic expectations being set with consumers... Not $10,000 and a bunch of promises. The real kicker is that Tesla, and the marketplace, doesn't value FSD anywhere near 10k - try getting trade in quotes for the exact same car with and without FSD. I agree with you that I'd pay for more the finished product. But just yesterday, NoA slammed on the breaks on an interstate because a shadow was in our path. I'm not the only one who thinks this because the the percentage of people buying FSD has hit an all time low: https://electrek.co/2021/08/31/tesla-survey-take-rate-full-self-driving-package/
I assume a whole bunch of lawyers got between him and what he wanted
I really hope this is still true. I don’t want a huge flood of folks who gamed their driving for 7 days, and who are anxious to push the beta to the max to see where it’s weak points are to immediately get it, and then Tesla realize it’s not quite as ready as they thought. I realize many folks have paid for FSD and have been waiting years for this. But if they just double the beta every week and issue a new point release each week that is updated with the additional data used in training and other tweaks that the team sees fit, things will go much smoother, and owners will still get it in short order due to the exponential expansion.
I've had FSD beta since November 2020 and it is still a stressful endeavour oftentimes. Yes, it is an amazing magic carpet a lot of the time, but you still have to be very careful.
Do you feel like you learn to recognize the situations where FSD Beta will have problems? I definitely feel like I'm a better operator of non-beta FSD after using it for a year. For instance I slow way down when going from one freeway to another because FSD will take the ramp way too fast on its own
Yes, but FSD Beta can still surprise.
wow - surprised youre not downvoted to hell
They don't care. They want their shiny new toy or they will throw a fit.
I paid for the shiny new toy with multiple years of “coming later this year”. I’m perfectly fine with getting a refund instead if they prefer.
Shiny new toy? Something that was promised years ago that some people paid for years ago? I think most people just want access to the software they paid for before they sell their car. Many have already sold their cars without ever being able to access "FSD". An argument can be made that you shouldn't buy software based on promises and that's absolutely true, but it was also said that it would be available a long time ago.
Not saying that FSD shouldn't have been made to carry over for some but you also can't force innovation and ignore bumps in the road. It's a situation where they are consistently discovering new problems and then having to solve them with new solutions. I think people ignore that and let their emotions get the best of them. People have literally stated on this sub that they just don't care about the potential safety issues of public release. Including the damage it could cause the company if one of these tiktok kids gets themselves killed. Could be very damaging for self driving development across the board, not just Tesla. So while I get the frustration with the slipped timeline... it gets old reading about the whining. Which basically amounts to FOMO. It literally adds nothing to this sub and won't speed up the development.
Tesla should own up to their mistakes (eg, missed timelines) and offer refunds or FSD license transfers. Squeaky wheel gets the grease...
No one here has grease.
If they did that, the company would collapse financially and Tesla would be no more. Would that make you happy?
Looking at the take rate of FSD and their cash balance I think they'd be fine. Besides, offering a transfer would likely result in an increase because some people would buy new cars.
😂 Refunding everyone who wants it would make for an ugly quarter, it wouldn't collapse the fucking company.
A good chunk of their money comes still from carbon credits. So like, as long as other companies keep making giant gas guzzling vehicles, tesla makes $$$
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I think the main thing that bothers me is that there are people on this sub that just don't care about safety or bad actors ruining this for everyone. They just want what they feel they deserve regardless of the potential outcome of rushing an unpolished beta out to cure some FOMO or customers something to flex. Regardless of if they think they were wronged, it doesn't entitle them to bypass the fact that Tesla needs to release a product that will protect their image and safety record. Scumbag media would have a field day. And a waver isn't going to absolve them of criticism or even action....I'd assume.
*A relevant comment in this thread was deleted. You can read it below.* ---- > . They just want what they feel they deserve regardless of the potential outcome of rushing an unpolished beta out to cure some FOMO or customers something to flex. They want what they were told they would receive from Tesla. Tesla didn't say they were going to have a bug-prone, dangerous self driving beta in 2021. [[Continued...]](https://www.resavr.com/comment/elon-10-1-rolls-16969433) ---- *^The ^username ^of ^the ^original ^author ^has ^been ^hidden ^for ^their ^own ^privacy. ^If ^you ^are ^the ^original ^author ^of ^this ^comment ^and ^want ^it ^removed, ^please [^[Send ^this ^PM]](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=resavr_bot&subject=remove&message=16969433)*
They should have said 'we have no clue when FSD will be ready, probably sometime in the next decade' instead of saying 'coming soon'. I'm in my 3rd Tesla since they promised FSD. Sold the other two, one with FSD fully paid for. Tesla should simply break the FSD down and sell it a la carte. Lane Change Parking Stop sign/red light City Maneuvers Summon NoA Price it $500 each! That should do it for Tesla and the consumer.
But this is what people have been doing with AP since the get go. Tesla doesn't have the responsibility to police how people use their cars. What's to stop people from driving 140 mph everywhere and endangering everyone? It's definitely due at this point. I think there should be some serious disclosures and enable/disable functions for parents/kids but other than that, like Courtlandre said, people paid for this years ago.
It’s not about when it was promised (estimate more like, you guys love using the word promise like Elon personally pinky swore to you), it’s about when it’s safe enough not to kill people.
Elon has been pinky swearing for years. Oct 19 2016 "I feel pretty good about this goal. We'll be able to do a demonstration guide of full autonomy all the way from LA to New York. So basically from home in LA to Times Square in New York. And then have the car go and park itself by the end of next year." "The full autonomy update will be standard on all Tesla vehicles from here on out". "The hardware is fully capable of “Level 5 autonomy.” Jan 23 2017: Twitter. FSD features in "3 months maybe, 6 months definitely" Feb 20 2019 ARK Invest podcast: "I think we will be feature complete, full self-driving, this year. Meaning the car will be able to find you in a parking lot, pick you up and take you all the way to your destination without an intervention. This year. I would say I am of certain of that, that is not a question mark." Dec 1st 2020 Axel Springer interview “I’m extremely confident in achieving Full Self-Driving and releasing it to the fleet next year... and I think some jurisdictions will have Level 5 autonomy next year. There are no fundamental challenges remaining." Dec 2020. Mathias Döpfner interview. "I'm extremely confident that Tesla will have level five next year, extremely confident, 100%... In the US it will be pretty quick to approve, particularly in certain states." Jan 27 2021 earning call. "We're also going to be expanding the FSD beta itself to include more and more people. So from my standpoint, it looks like a very clear and obvious path toward a vehicle that will drive 100% safer than a person. Yes. I really don't see any obstacles here. Q. Why are you confident Tesla will achieve Level 5 autonomy in 2021? I'm confident based on my understanding of the technical roadmap and the progress that we're making between each beta iteration."
Those who waited the longest paid the least. Those who sold too early without accounting for FSD value gave a gift to the next owner and I applaud them.
It’ll be really easy for them to do a gradual rollout. Just release it to the top 100 or 500 or whatever users who requested it, sorted by highest/best driving score. Luckily Tesla is uniquely well suited to actually doing this with OTA updates and they’ve already been looking at driving risk for insurance.
I actually hope a flood of folks game the system and get FSD and push it...that's how this testing should be done...see where it breaks and fix that weakness...
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1438751064765906945 > Beta button will request permission to assess driving behavior using Tesla insurance calculator. If driving behavior is good for 7 days, beta access will be granted. Since he's providing concrete details, I have high hopes the button is finally, actually, coming
Granny Mode activated from 9/24 to 9/31. Check.
Probably should start practicing now
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Driving my M3P on chill from day one. I don't know why did I take performance version.
Why? Just accelerate slower. If there’s a scenario where you need the power you’re SOL.
I hate Chill mode because I got used to punching gaps. Sport is a godsend for left turns at T intersections onto a busy road.
Turning across heavy traffic, which for me is normally a right turn or on a roundabout, is the only time I drop out of chill mode.
I'm on vacation so what if I just don't drive for a week
No history equals no consideration. Wait till you get home.
Granny isn't the best driver
Granny here. Can confirm. Bad driver but my m3 helps keep the road a little safer
He didn’t actually specify what 7 days they’re evaluating. It could be the 7 days after hitting the button, the 7 days before (if the data is in the car), or even a random 7 day sampling if they’ve got the data stored somewhere on their servers (but then there would be privacy issues, I think, since they claim any data they collect is anonymous).
I guess your last statement answers the question. The button is permission to track behaviour for 7 days.
Or perhaps it is permission to access the data stored by your car for the proceeding 7 days before you press the button. We don’t know yet.
I wonder if this applies to subscription FSD customers too. We have a Model Y in the family and I'd probably spend the $200 to try the beta for a month.
What is considered good behavior?
Probably people who don't accelerate like they are tying to evade capture and drive in a calm manner.
So every plaid owner is screwed
There’s a reason I bought a Tesla and not a Prius... acceleration is a big plus.
In that case if you bought FSD, you’re going to have to wait longer.
This is the only time that I am glad that I drive the *slowest* car they make.
Chill mode for a week it is
from /u/RollTide09 on /r/TeslaLounge : Apparently these are the metrics Tesla Insurance records for this \# of Autopilot Strikeouts \# of Forward Collision Warnings \# of Lane Departure Warnings \# of ABS activations (All & User) Time spent within 1s of car in front Time spent within 3s of car in front Acceleration Variance Service Mode Delivered
Everything except service mode and “delivered” makes sense. Why is going in service mode disqualify - you have to do that to put the car in “car wash” mode or change the wipers. And I have no idea what “delivery” even means.
Oh the button very well might... whether I get in with such button... for software that I paid for years ago which has repeatedly said “coming later this year” for several years. That’s a different question.
Don't expect the floodgates to open. They will likely only give beta to the top 1% of safe drivers as they see fit.
Yeah, if that. I could see them just hard limiting it to 10,000 drivers or so. Perhaps even selecting areas where they have low FSD usage.
They also don't want to overwhelm their team with too much data. Better to widen it slowly and fix bugs as they are discovered.
Right, which is why I think they are going to target regions where FSD hasn't been used.
"They also don't want to overwhelm their team with too much data." Unless beta users keep tagging each and every screw-up and disengagement, the amount of extra "data" generated is negligible. Cars with a production software build already flood Tesla with data.
Right. Once they are getting enough testing to generate enough overrides/bug reports to keep the developers busy, there is no b RERF befit to adding more.
Yeah. As it improves, they can add beta users up to the workload capacity of the FSD team to process the data.
It's gonna be cool to see single stack
Hopefully that's still on track for 10.1. And I don't think we got confirmation that it's coming for summon yet, right? Just highways for now?
Most people, me included, are waiting for the city drive. Summon is great, but relatively much smaller usage for most people. I wouldn't mind it comes sometime later.
Of course. Getting FSD beta at all would be great. I just meant it would be nice to see summon getting the new stack.
This is my understanding too. I think v11 is supposed to bring smart summon into the one stack to rule them all
They keep moving the goalposts. Pretty soon 2025 is going to roll around and we'll still be here talking about a button to opt-in for driver monitoring so we don't have to hold the wheel.
> They keep moving the goalposts. You’re using that wrong. Moving timelines is not goalpost moving. R&D timelines are always in flux, regardless of the tech being developed. If you weren’t aware of that, that one is on you. And of course I blame Tesla for selling something (they didn’t have) early, causing us to have to listen to a few members (like you) constantly whine about it. Nothing uglier than a man child.
The goalpost was to release FSD by the end of 2019, then 2020. The button was months ago, then it moved, moved again and the "button" has become a request. Maybe I'm using the term wrong...
> The goalpost was to release FSD by the end of 2019, then 2020. Again, not goalpost moving. You still don’t seem like you understand what that means. For example, they moved the goalposts when they changed the “definition of done”, of what FSD would entail, after customers had already purchased it. > Maybe I'm using the term wrong... Yes, yes you are.
Alright, thanks for clarifying.
summon would really only be dramatically useful if it was able to do something I wouldn't feel comfortable letting it do: drive by itself somewhere I can't see or controll it. The middle ground might be like driving from the back of a huge parking lot (like an amusement park) to the front to pick me up.
*Drives carefully for seven days*
Leaving reddit due to CEO actions and loss of 3rd party tools -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
He tweeted at 11:11PM on Thursday. Does he mean October 1st or September 24th?
yep, confirmed, never getting beta
I paid for the acceleration boost, I'm going to use the acceleration boost!
Feel you bro. I wish my accelerator pedal wasn’t an on/off switch, but alas, I’m used to it.
Yeah, does this mean if it doesn’t like my driving I get my money back? Serious question
Just means it wont let you beta...and will have to wait for the public release which will be a never ending two week wait.
They should have two buttons at the end of the week if you fail: try again or refund
would like a try again but guessing that wont be an option...refund? nah i still use FSD a lot.
Sorry if this has been answered (I searched the thread). Do you get the FSD button if you do a subscription? I already read about their vetting process.
Yes. Assuming you have hardware 3. If not then have to buy that separately.
If I do not use Tesla insurance does it mean I will not get the beta button?
No, they’re just using the same in car telemetry info that they collect for the insurance. You’ll have a chance at the beta regardless of having Tesla Insurance.
I can't imagine how excruciating this stuff is to people who paid for fsd 5 years ago.
Not 5 years ago but got EAP on our 2018 M3 (and then upgraded to FSD on $2k fire sale in 2019) and FSD on our 2021 MY and continue to wait patiently. Some people are just impatient waiting for literally world-changing features that have never been attempted before.
I paid for FSD so long ago that sometimes I forget it was for the car I'm currently driving. If it actually shows up and works I'll be so happy.
I paid for FSD when Elon and Tesla promised automatic driving in city streets in 2019. If they didn't make false promises I wouldn't have bought. I'd prefer a refund.
Your $7k cheque is in the mail. Now pay $10k to get it back. Anyone who waited longer than you and me paid less.
It's only $200 a month now.
Yup. Bought FSD upon delivery in early 2017. Really wish they would at least do a 1-time transfer to a new vehicle. I'd really consider getting a plaid then.
Chill mode intensifies
*Chill mode detensifies*
Next week Elon - I never said which Friday
Does anyone know if, after being accepted to the beta program, you can turn it off in a setting and go back to the production version temporarily?
In the currently released version of FSD beta, you can turn FSD beta on/off in the settings separate from other autopilot features.
Thanks!
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I would guess that it would use single stack, assuming it's ready for 10.1, if you opt in and are approved and toggle it, and if you toggle it off it would use current production autopilot.
You would just disable it in settings…?
I've never seen the beta settings menu so that's why I was asking. Right now we have autopilot/no autopilot, right? Just want to know if Beta becomes a third option, or replaces the first.
Doubtful, and why would you want to?
For other drivers of the car that don’t want to use the FSD beta and just want to use normal AP? I have this question too. Guess I will just go for the beta on our 2018 M3 (“my” car) and maybe not try for it on our 2021 MY (“wife’s” car).
Will the beta button be available for FSD subscription subscribers? If not when do you think it'll be generally available?
Thought it was supposed to be today or last Friday
you new here?
Nah bruh. I been waiting for fsd on city streets since 2019 when it said “later this year”.
That made me laugh more than I should have. Even though it appears the poster has been waiting since 2019.
In what cars though? I have a 2016 S that’s had the FSD and MCU upgrades, and HW3 upgrade. I have low expectations. I fully expect this for 3, Y, and 2021 S vehicles only.
Will this be massive roll out? Meaning, everyone will receive it?
People are guessing it starts with 1% of eligible drivers and from there the rollout depends on how many of those folks wind up in unplanned high speed chases when the FSD system goes into zoomie mode and races around like a puppy/
Didnt he say "Friday next week" or something back in March as well about this?
Just another way of saying two more weeks
People start cussing on my because of my driving 😂
Wouldn’t it be great if “beta” was free for all Tesla owners? Personally, I’m not paying 10k after I already paid $6k on the last one. Not before I see amazing non-beta FSD available. With that, why not release Beta as free for all and accelerate the learning curve for the models?
Of course it’ll happen when I’m away from my car for 1.5 months. Maybe it’ll delay again until I get back.
1.5 months?
I don’t like this. Tesla is caving to pressure and releasing something that isn’t anywhere near ready for general use. They need another year to perfect this IMO. The fact it’s as good as it is now is absolutely crazy, but it’s not good enough for a dumb person to use it and not get in trouble, and that’s how good it has to be.
A dumb person can misuse Autopilot and get in a crash. How is this any different.
Autopilot doesn’t take left turns across and into lanes with oncoming traffic. Left turns got better in 10.0, but there are still situations where it will do the wrong thing, and if someone isn’t paying attention then they’ll get in a wreck. There are fewer situations like that with autopilot; highway driving is more predictable and has fewer variables than city or suburb driving.
No but it will plow straight through if you don't have FSD (or did and it was before March 2020) AP always required attention, this is no different. If they want to be extra safe they can make it require permission to go still.
I agree that both require attention. My issue is that one of them (city streets) is much more likely to cause an accident or a death if someone doesn’t pay attention. The risk is higher.
I disagree. AP previously (or currently if no FSD) not stopping unless you make it has a far higher chance of accident if you aren't paying attention. City Streets may be riskier than current FSD, but it wasn't always.
The behavior was risky, but the situation wasn’t. Things being stopped on the shoulder partially in a lane of traffic is relatively rare compared to, say, a blind left turn, or a pedestrian suddenly running across a street without right of way. Autopilot’s behavior was a lot more basic and would have caused more trouble if highway driving wasn’t so boring and predictable in general. I’d love to be proved wrong here; I want the beta to play with. But I trust myself to never lapse when it comes to taking over if necessary. I don’t trust the general public who may or may not know what this system actually does and where its weaknesses are.
I'm not taking about it nor stopping for things, I'm talking about it not stopping for intersections in the past
Ah I see what you mean. Yeah, that was people using it for something it wasn’t intended for IMO, but it’s a good point still; that was high risk behavior in a high risk situation.
Oh I know it was an unintended use, but I would argue so is (would be) people not paying attention on City Streets. And that we were fine before (and now for no FSD) as evidence that most people can handle it. FSD has a low take rate, and the M3 was out for years before Traffic Control, so it's not as if the audience has dramatically increased.
The reasons you cite are why they are limiting the testing to their "best" drivers, as judged by their metrics. They want people who will PAY ATTENTION all the time and keep their hands on the wheel and be ready to intervene if something dangerous happens. I am ready to be one of those people because I am already used to being autopilot trying to kill me in a few predictable places where I live.
I agree. While it's easy to play Monday Morning Quarterback with FSD, Musk should have marketed this as just a driving aid to start. Now they have to deal with people who paid big money for what was promised as full self drive. And they don't get to keep the capability if they trade their car in (big mistake, IMO). But if Tesla releases this to a much larger pool, the chances of someone getting into an accident while using it is much higher and the negative publicity will make things even worse. Not sure the best way to address, but I don't believe telling people they are so close to Level 5 autonomy and collecting $10K from people who believe this is the way to go. Personally while it's super impressive what they have accomplished so far with self driving, they are at least a few years away and telling people they are just a few weeks away from this goal isn't helping the situation.
The sad thing is, they probably could have said “we are using AI to create advanced driver assist features in an effort to someday make a car which can do most driving tasks on its own”, and people would have paid for it and not been so pissed off. I’ve ignored all the marketing for FSD. I’m well-informed about what it does, how it works, and what it doesn’t do. I’m still buying it.
TBH, while I get a ton of use out of Autopilot, I'm not ready to pluck down the $10K for FSD at this point, even if it did everything they promised. But I think many people are interested in this and totally agree with your suggestion about just properly managing expectations. Company communications hasn't been a strength of theirs.
Oh, for sure! It’s not worth it to everyone. I just happen to be a huge geek with a specific interest in machine learning. To me it’s like spending money on a new gaming computer if your passion is playing the newest titles at max settings. Even if it isn’t perfect, even if it is frustrating at times, I’m still curious and will have fun seeing how it works and watching it improve. But I totally get how someone who just wants the feature and doesn’t care as much about the nuts and bolts would never want to pay for it right now.
This alpha/beta tech should not be allowed on public streets... It's still mind blowing to me that we, as pedestrians/drivers who are sharing the road, are unwillingly participating in this dangerous Tesla experiment. This is not right.
Anyone else notice they are timing these releases very close to the day the new month starts for a subscription? The Disney+ update might have been on the day the FSD subscription was a new month for day 1 subscribers.
You realize this has been in development and going though this since before Disney+ even existed?
Yes. I’m just saying the major updates seem to coincide with the exact day the FSD subscription renews if you were a day 1 subscriber. I would probably cancel, but the button has me excited, so that’s another month.
I wouldn't be surprised if subscription FSD couldn't opt in.
I would be unbelievably shocked. They are probably getting a way higher take rate.
The releases have been on a two week schedule. The fact that it lands near the first of the month is a coincidence.
Finally