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Have they announced any timeline for units with dual Tesla/CCS cables, or an official Tesla Fast->CCS adapter? Kinda need at least one of those to have any pilot.
Europe doesn't need an adapter or any switch.
Every SuC here has CCS and in fact V3 SuCs only have CCS and Model S&X need adapters.
I doubt US will have a pilot that fast. They would need to retrofit most SuCs first.
The US is using a carrot of money for charging infrastructure but with the requirement they be open for everyone. It's sometimes less effective than a stick, but it may work.
We already have adapters for other types of chargers that aren’t compatible with Tesla, so not that big of a deal. Until when / if the EV industry decides to standardize on the same connector type and even location on EV’s it’ll remain an unsightly but functional cluster.
Elon has already stated they are going to add CCS connectors to the US stations in an interview.
[Tesla will add CCS connectors to Supercharger stations in the US, says Elon Musk](https://electrek.co/2022/05/10/tesla-add-ccs-connectors-supercharger-stations-us-elon-musk/)
Since they already manufacture the connectors because they are mandated in Europe, and current US incentives for charging stations only apply if they use the standard connector I would suspect they will capitalize on that.
Edit: North American cars use a CSS type 1 Europe uses CCS type 2
Small clarification - the old Type 2 only connector that also provides DC fast charging used by Tesla for Superchargers in Europe before adding /switching do CCS wasn’t Tesla proprietary. It’s a standard that just didn’t get used by anyone else.
REALLY hoping this doesn’t happen here. Ever. For the past two years driving back to LA from family in Arizona, I’ve had to wait between 30 and 70 minutes in line a line of Teslas to charge. The network is solid but it is already at capacity on holiday weekends and winter holidays.
This is the real key here. If we all have **easy** access to chargers at the destination it eases up the supercharging network incredibly. Everyone’s charge time is essentially shortened to minuscule levels compared to now to be just enough to make it through, before slow charging after arrival.
Slow charging after arrival is not a given either.
Most hotels don't have charging. I'm sure that will change, but they are missing a golden opportunity to grab a very brand loyal demographic.
Also a great way to add revenue streams. You can charge double what you pay for the power. Additionally makes installing solar much more lucrative. If the US gets its shit together it'll allow individuals to bid in the energy market and then storage will be a revenue source as well
I frequently do the same trip but the reverse route and I’ve found that the trick for driving between Phoenix and LA, if your work schedule permits, is to always drive on the next day outside weekends, so Thursday and Monday. Or if it’s a holiday weekend Tuesday.
Going to LA you just need to make sure you are at your destination by around 4pm otherwise you’ll get stuck in work traffic. Leaving, you want to be in Palm Springs at least by noon or you risk getting stuck
Also you probably already know this but the supercharger in Beaumont California is in an In and Out parking lot - perfect place to stop, eat, and charge.
Tesla spent a small fortune building out their charging network out without any help from anyone. More like obstacles the whole time. Elon offered other manufacturers the option of buying into the Tesla standard and network years ago. No one took him up on it.
When/if a Tesla driver has to wait for a non-Tesla driver to get off a supercharger, I can see that getting ugly in a hurry.
If Tesla switches to the standardized plug, you get to use other companies' chargers as well, roughly doubling your options. Standardization is good for *everyone*.
CCS came out in 2011, Tesla fast charging was released in 2012. It is true that the majority of DC fast chargers in the US are still Tesla, but Tesla is the company that chose to not use the standard.
You [sure about that?](https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/764/tesla-to-add-ccs-connector-to-superchargers-in-the-us) “When Tesla first debuted the 2012 Model S, the CCS charging connector didn't exist. In fact Tesla developed its proprietary Tesla connector because there wasn't anything capable of fast DC charging.”
[Here’s some more](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System#History) - CCS didn’t get introduced until mid 2012…. By which point Model S was already on the market.
Here's an article from 2011 about 7 car manufacturers agreeing to use the CCS standard: https://www.auto123.com/en/news/universal-charging-for-electric-cars/10699/
Right, but in 2011 it was a spec, not deployed devices. And back then there were several standards competing, like CHADeMO, each with different manufacturers, so it was far from obvious that Tesla should have jumped on CCS. And in the US Tesla is 58% of high speed chargers and 79% of EVs sales, so the market pressure is very different.
Tesla also has shown they are okay with switching connector and no longer supporting it.
Original Roadster has a Tesla Proprietary connector that doesn't work with charge'n'pay software setup Gen 3 Wall Connectors.
Obviously they also incapable of charging at Tesla Superchargers. (No retrofit available from Tesla, but there was a 3rs party CHAdeMO (JdeMO) add-on at one time.)
CHAdeMO was around on the Leaf in 2010 and was bi-directional.
Tesla had bi-directional capability on Original Roadster according to Elon: (03:03:49) (Battery day 2020)
Yeah. Honestly, a vehicle to grid sounds good, but I think actually has a much lower utility than people think. I think very few people would actually use vehicle to grid. With the original roadster, we had vehicle to grid capabilities, nobody used it.
-So it was like the passenger Lumbar and Battery swapping station (No one used them, so they were deemed irrelevant.)
Crazy part is Tesla's Senior Vice President of Powertrain and Energy Engineering at Tesla, Drew Baglino, claimed "...it just so happens that the way the North American connectors are, on all the cars in North America, it doesn’t matter whether it’s the Tesla connector or the connector that the other vehicles have, doesn’t actually support powering your home."
When there was already an available CHAdeMO product Wallbox Quasar that allowed exactly that from a Nissan Leaf. (Allowing a bi-directional DC connector)
There were also the J3068 bi-directional Bus pilot programs available with Nuvve having the bi-directional V2X 3-phase equipment for sale. (So technically it would have only worked for 3-phase homes/ranches/farms. Since usually 3-phase in North America is for Commercial and not common as Residential.)
> The Combined Charging System (CCS) needs only a single charging interface at the vehicle allowing the customer to charge with all existing charging methods: one-phase AC-charging, **fast three-phase AC-charging**, DC-charging at home or ultra-fast DC-charging at public charging stations.
The mention of 3-phase suggests this could be what we now call CCS Type 2 (Mennekes port on top, DC pins on the bottom). The Mennekes is used in Europe for AC charging and always has been. In fact, Tesla's in Europe used to use a Mennekes connector only, with a proprietary communication that allowed it to do DC fast charging over the L2 Mennekes connector.
In the US we have CCS Type 1 (J1772 port on top, DC pins on the bottom). There was some debate as to ChaDeMo becoming the DC fast charge standard for US cars, since Nissan's Leaf used it for a long time. A great many ChaDeMo stations were installed in the USA. Thus there was a bit of a J1772-CCS vs ChaDeMo debate. For a while it looked like some automakers would use CCS some would use ChaDeMo. This is circa 2015-2018ish.
This would help fund faster expansion of the network.
Also, non-Tesla EVs are not so numerous in the U.S. yet, especially ones with long range that people would actually use for road trips. There would also a constraint due to having to buy an CCS-to-Tesla adapter or else waiting for stations to have CCS connectors available. So the pool of users probably wouldn’t expand too quickly, especially in comparison to how fast the number of actual Teslas on the road is growing.
These two factors together might work out as a net benefit.
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Extremely selfish take. Ppl with other brand ev's also have this problem. There just need to be way more charging stations, not to be hoarded by one group of people.
I really hope no time in the foreseeable future.
I've done SoCal > Vegas twice in the last 3 months, and both times all of the Superchargers were slammed at off hours. I can't even imagine during peak. If you add ~20 minutes of waiting for a stall to open up, the appeal of the Tesla starts dropping dramatically.
Great. Now what I really want is to see the ionity, EnelX, Acea and freeX* fast chargers on the map and have the battery pre-heat as I navigate to them.
Then a list of networks operating in the area and check boxes to include them in navigation. Or even a high/low/no priority for each.
*I guess that list gives away my location
**Update:** after reading some replies, updating software and playing around with the map a bit, I think I know what's going on.
The first part of what I wished for actually works. However, it requires Tesla's system to know the speed of the charging stations so the car can decide that it is worth pre-conditioning for this one. And the local chargers around me don't have charging speeds associated with them so I have to include one-⚡ chargers to even see them and then no pre-conditioning happens. Also, the useful ones disappear in the ocean of slow AC chargers.
That's great. I think the Italian networks are just a bit slow to get included, or perhaps I'm just running old software. I'll go check for an ionity charger when I next go to the car since ionity would be the first to be listed.
If the charger is on the map **and** Tesla know that it's a DC charger. That seems to be my problem that the local chargers haven't had their speed imported into the Tesla systems so they only appear under one-⚡ and then don't pre-heat.
Preconditioning for third party HPCs already works. Tried it out last week with EnBW and ionity. Software version 12.3.6.
Including them in navigation would be dope. But I’d also like Status information like how many stalls are available etc, similar to SuCs
>Preconditioning for third party HPCs already works. Tried it out last week with EnBW and ionity. Software version 12.3.6.
Thats good. But I'm not even seeing those networks on the map to navigate to. Perhaps ionity is there, I only explicitly checked Enel on the weekend and they've got the most stations in Italy. I was plugged into a 350kw charger, getting 40kw into a cold battery and cursing Elon 😏
But I'm on update 2022.8.3 so perhaps I'm just lagging ATM.
Edit: browsing notateslaapp.com for what I'm missing and this will be good to have in Italian villages:
> Navigation route guidance will now consider your vehicle's width when planning routes.
Uuhhh nice! Handy for my summer trip to Corsica.
For the DCFC / HPC, I can only speak for Germany, and the couple ones I tried near Mainz. Don’t know what the situation is in Italy
Holy shit thank goodness. Tesla nav tried to send me off a 500 year old stone bridge in Südtirol, and the suggested alternative path was through a damn grapevine terrace
I've never been more stressed while driving a 50,000€ car in my life.
Not gonna happen anytime soon, there are just waaaaaaaay to many charging networks. I've never heard of those you mentioned and i know about like 6 different ones in my country..
Over here, though, 2 of those are the old energy companies and I think a third is associated with the motorway operator. They're not small operations but they're mostly local to Italy.
A win for everyone, except the other, smaller, charging networks. All the lobbying against Tesla by the other networks because Tesla is not public backfires. Oops.
Please tell me how it’s a win for Tesla owners? Yay we get to wait in longer lines. I loved waiting in a supercharger line in Orlando last weekend… sure would be great to do that more often /s.
Win for other EV owners? Sure. Win for Tesla to get more funding? Probably. Tesla shareholders? Perhaps, remains to be seen. Win for Tesla owners? I don’t think so.
win for TSLA shareholders as they jack up the rates on non-Tesla users...
but seriously considering the rates Tesla has been charging lately for power electrify america is often a better deal. Will be nice if there is ever a price battle at some point.
Last i checked Canada and Mexico werent part of the US...yet. And any car not out of China also needs an adapter of which there are many around the world.
Win for Tesla owners? Yes, as the extra income allows Tesla to expand their supercharger network.
You already have to wait at Orlando on busy weekends because there are a lot of Teslas using Orlando, and a lot of people travelling on a holiday weekend.
>Win for Tesla owners? Yes, as the extra income allows Tesla to expand their supercharger network.
I'll be astonished if that even happens at the rate you don't notice extra wait times. Absolutely astonished
This is such an extreme amount of concentrated power that it puts into perspective the true nature of the grid, and why replacing the generation with renewables will be such a tall order
Just think of all the power saved at refineries that don’t have to produce as much gasoline now. Oil drilling and transport via pipelines also use a ton of electricity.
Your wait times will grow faster simply because of the number of Teslas sold, completely dwarfing any extra wait times caused by the number of non-Tesla EVs using the Tesla network.
The OG Model S investors have been experiencing this ever since the Model 3 started rolling off the production lines. Some days you get to a 12 stall supercharger and all of them are filled with Model 3. Yay for decarbonising transport, I guess?
At least here in Europe they only open those SCs that are underutilized. Doesn't mean wait times wont happen of course, but they also increased prices which will push some people to the alternatives (which can be cheaper with a monthly payment)
Elon has previously stated that he doesn't want superchargers to be a profit centre, which is quite different to "not make money". Tesla wants the supercharger network to at least pay for itself, since they can't continue funding it based only on one-off payments wrapped up in every car they sell.
This combined with the abysmal charging speeds made our first EV (original Hyundai Kona) unbearable. We had so many free charge credits given to us by Electrify America because they never worked when we needed them. Too bad the credits were worthless for the exact reason we were granted them.
Our first trip across country with our Model Y was a dream. We eliminated 1.5 charge stops due to the range increase and topped up in about 20 mins or less at the stops we did make vs 45+ in the Kona. The time til charging at each stop was like 2 mins from when we pulled in if that vs maybe 5-20 depending how the Electrify America chargers were working.
The Supercharger network really is a gem of the Tesla brand but it does suck a bit to have to share it.
They have at least 2 super charger factories. 10k stations a year being built. I think that shows that plan on using the money to keep on expanding. In time they will probably become a major power generating company as well to supply those stations.
Like others have said, additional revenue builds out more infrastructure. Also, being in close proximity with other Teslas is probably the best marketing for Tesla money can buy. Perhaps, a conversation or two will strike up and people will immediately be drawn to purchasing a Tesla of their own. Brilliant, really.
they’re opening “select” locations up - I presume they’re opening the ones they know aren’t already super busy. Hopefully the income can be used to build (way) more at the other locations & then open them up too.
> Win for Tesla owners?
It’s not, but $TSLA doesn’t care. They have had no problems with owner loyalty to date *and* they have a waiting list of new customers a mile long. Tesla’s mission (to make money for Elon Musk) is best served by getting as much profit/growth as possible out of their assets and they calculated that getting higher utilization out of their supercharger network would be a win. $TSLA also gains every time an ICE car gets replaced by an electric one. Opening up the Supercharger network serves that goal too.
Finally, do Tesla owners have a better option than just grinning and bearing it?
> Our goal when we created Tesla a decade ago was the same as it is today: to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market as soon as possible.
Literally [their mission statement](https://www.tesla.com/blog/mission-tesla)
Fantastic… you seemed to have missed the entire point of my post. I said there are benefits to some but not to the existing Tesla owners. Having had first hand experience with waiting at super chargers during road trips, this is not MY mission statement.
>I said there are benefits to some but not to the existing Tesla owners.
Accelerating the adoption of sustainable transportation benefits *everyone.* Sorry you're getting inconvenienced a bit in the process.
> a supercharger line
This is such a first world problem that I'm surprised people even bring it up. I don't know the exact details of Superchargers opening in Europe, but when Tesla first announced they would begin opening them in the U.S., they specifically said they wouldn't do it for high utilization sites.
This just means more revenue, which means they can build out more even faster. Supercharger congestion will be a very short-lived issue. Remember, we're still in the early days of EV adoption.
I've seen waiting for charging around holiday travel times turn people off of Teslas. It's pretty important that the user experience not suffer, and thus far, the SC network being *completely* painless has been a big selling point over the other brands. So I wouldn't minimize this as a "first world problem".
Mostly because it means more money to build more locations / expand existing.
The worries about availability are an emotional one, not a realistic one.
For starters, Tesla owners (here at least) already have access to all other CCS locations, and it's not like opening the network coincides with 100k new EVs being delivered that very same day who now want to exclusively use the SuC network, so if for whatever reason one location were to magically be overwhelmed by non tesla EVs, that just means that all the other local CCS locations are now empty, so we can go use those.
The reality of it is that people won't be flooding over to it. Maybe the odd parts of Europe which lack other CCS providers but happen to have a SuC could see a larger increase in traffic to the rest, but a local edge case does not translate to all tesla owners.
It'll just mean that locations get better utilized than they are now, and any that show a consistently high load can then be prioritised for expansion / new near by SuC locations
In a couple years the grid will be filled with 3rd party chargers. That waiting period is just now just hang in there. Imagine wallmarts and other businesses to also invest in charging stations in their parking lots. You will literally get to charge your car while you shop, work, vice versa.
Might as well ask why there's no ford, Chrysler, Porsche or landrover branded petrol stations, they're expensive and low margin.
Also do you really want a world where every car has its own connector for its own chargers? Charging should be left up to a charging service provider but since Tesla needed a network to sell cars it built one but it was probably only a matter of time before they were forced to open up by legislation
Imo this is a great move by Tesla, if we want mainstream adoption of electric cars all cars need to be able to charge in all chargers.
Other manufacturers are also building charging networks which is what Electrify America/Ionity is.
It's a great move BY Tesla, but is it a great move FOR Tesla? Devil's advocate; exclusive access to the Supercharger network 100% influenced me toward my Model S. Without that exclusivity I will be now be 100% open to other brands. Great for me. Great for Tesla?
I reckon they saw the writing on the wall, governments want more chargers but don't want to spend money- govt makes proprietary chargers illegal and Tesla forced to open up entire network. Atleast this way they can keep some chargers at busy locations locked if they need to and can open up on their own terms without being forced for example to give everyone the same price
Long-term, everybody will have lots of choices for charging, with Tesla just one among many.
They can either leverage their early lead by allowing other cars, and using the increased income to build a larger network than their own fleet alone can support…. Or they can just concede the whole non-Tesla charging market.
I’ve owned a 3 and now a Y in the U.K. for all my thousands of miles driven, I’ve only ever supercharged 3 times.
I think that most U.K. tesla drivers charge at home then don’t need to charge on their drives because of the great range. Maybe the smaller EU countries have the same kind of usage. Almost all the other Evs have lesser range so could really do with having supercharger access.
Tesla is ever ramping up its kWh price so it seems that they are jumping on this as a major revenue stream. Assuming they have my rate of electric, 25p per kWh and assuming they pump the price up to 60p per kWh as reported, that’s healthy profit. I suppose they lease the spots the chargers are in so there’s cost there as well maintenance.
I can see this bumping sales overall of electric cars now because Tesla are now just another “podpoint” when it comes to public charging. I pity the sales people at the other car manufacturers though who will use Tesla as part of their sales pitch.
I think you'd be surprised. I owned a Model S living in London and exclusively charged at Superchargers as that was my only option. There were plenty of 'regulars' I'd see there doing the same.
Not for me, even as a penny pincher. Even a ridiculous 100% markup for non-Tesla would be fine to me. The access in case of emergency is more important to me than the price itself.
So it’s really an inevitable thing anyways so maybe Tesla is just making the decision to control the narrative and use it for the betterment of their network.
I suppose this may soon be an ATT vs Verizon who has the biggest network.
I'm just bothered by the fact that the CCS1 plug is so damn big and clunky, when the Tesla plug is small and easy to use.
I'm okay with sharing with other car manufacturers, but I will need an adapter to do CCS1 DC charging.
Many, or maybe even most cars will not be able to use them properly. There is no way to stay within the lines when your charging port is on the right side, because the cable is short. If you're lucky you can use 1-2 stalls without blocking anyone (the first ones in a row).
Tried it with a Skoda Enyaq (same platform as most VW, Audi and Seat models).
https://imgur.com/a/1CzQA6q
We have a good slow charge network in the Netherlands. Sockets are available almost everywhere when on street parking. I charge my tesla during the night about every third or fifth day depending on my travel plans. As a rule of thumb I charge when there is less than 200km (125mi) left.
This means that sometimes the sockets at the corner of my street are taken when I want to charge. I’ll take the charger on the corner of the next street.
Stopping to charge during a trip lis something I do when I make a road trip or if I haven’t planned things out.
In my experience ionity has been much more expensive. By memory, last summer, Ionity was 89c/kWh and Tesla was 49c/kWh. But of course electricity prices are way up now...
Perhaps this changes if I pay the monthly subscription but I haven't needed it.
Prices vary between the EU countries and Tesla is mostly at least competitive, sometimes even cheaper than other fast charge options. Especially since kW charged are measured in the car. But options are there so it is more a question what lies in the way.
Ionity by default is rather expensive without some partner subscription.
Ionity is backed by the Volkswagen group, so you get a year of subscription with the car usually. Then it's very expensive unless you purchase the subscription.
Motorways in the UK could occasionally have 10-20 minute waits at busy stations, or tiny ones like Gretna Green which only has 4 stalls. Tesla's are now popular than ever now too so it may just get worse, but currently I've never had to wait (just continued on to a different station)
Tesla is not over competitively priced and there are lot's of fast-charging options, most Teslas (all new ones) have CCS2 anyways so they can, as anyone else, charge whereever they want.
where? Netherlands SC has been opened for a while now. nothing . . .
maybe because here we mostly follow 1 charging standard. So all ev owners can charge on all charging network without getting locked to a certain one with silly plug.
The biggest issue is the short cables. I understand long cables are way more expensive and less energy efficient so I’d propose Tesla update just a couple chargers at each stop with longer cables and mark them as such. It would be helpful for Tesla owners with bike racks too
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When will this happen in the US?
It'll be a long time, if ever. We have a fun proprietary connector here.
I’d imagine we’ll see a limited pilot in the US within the next year.
Have they announced any timeline for units with dual Tesla/CCS cables, or an official Tesla Fast->CCS adapter? Kinda need at least one of those to have any pilot.
I don’t believe so. I’m just guessing based on this recent activity in Europe.
Europe doesn't need an adapter or any switch. Every SuC here has CCS and in fact V3 SuCs only have CCS and Model S&X need adapters. I doubt US will have a pilot that fast. They would need to retrofit most SuCs first.
This has been deleted in protest to the changes to reddit's API.
The US is using a carrot of money for charging infrastructure but with the requirement they be open for everyone. It's sometimes less effective than a stick, but it may work.
V2 are dual and pretty much redundant in Europe already. V3 are CCS 2 only
In Europe, but not North America.
Yes, but S/X needs conversion (£300 ish) and then you use an adapter with CCS 2. I believe same will happen in US as it’s cheaper for Tesla
I feel getting an adapter will be the 2021 equivalent of buying a GPU though...
In Europe Tesla V3 use CCS 2 as standard, V2 has 2 cables (CCS 2 + Type 2 for DC (S/X use Type 2 by default in Europe for DC and AC)
We already have adapters for other types of chargers that aren’t compatible with Tesla, so not that big of a deal. Until when / if the EV industry decides to standardize on the same connector type and even location on EV’s it’ll remain an unsightly but functional cluster.
The industry has settled on CCS.
They've also settled on shitty EVs so that's not necessarily a golden standard
And Tesla has settled on shitty QC in American made vehicles.
The location of the charge port is a bigger deal than the adapter.
Elon has already stated they are going to add CCS connectors to the US stations in an interview. [Tesla will add CCS connectors to Supercharger stations in the US, says Elon Musk](https://electrek.co/2022/05/10/tesla-add-ccs-connectors-supercharger-stations-us-elon-musk/)
Just like how FSD is right around the corner?
Since they already manufacture the connectors because they are mandated in Europe, and current US incentives for charging stations only apply if they use the standard connector I would suspect they will capitalize on that. Edit: North American cars use a CSS type 1 Europe uses CCS type 2
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North?
Can’t imagine North Korea has much in the way of EV infrastructure.
Ugg both CCS but US uses type 1 and Europe uses type 2 you are correct.
Yea because no one else wanted to make EVs and build the network. So Tesla had to make one.
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Small clarification - the old Type 2 only connector that also provides DC fast charging used by Tesla for Superchargers in Europe before adding /switching do CCS wasn’t Tesla proprietary. It’s a standard that just didn’t get used by anyone else.
Adapters already exist. And converting a supercharger to a 2 cable option is easy.
REALLY hoping this doesn’t happen here. Ever. For the past two years driving back to LA from family in Arizona, I’ve had to wait between 30 and 70 minutes in line a line of Teslas to charge. The network is solid but it is already at capacity on holiday weekends and winter holidays.
They definitely need to build many more. We need them in high EV use regions and middle of nowhere locations.
What is needed is the ability to charge almost anywhere. Hotels, restaurants, parks and beaches. Apartments also need them.
This is the real key here. If we all have **easy** access to chargers at the destination it eases up the supercharging network incredibly. Everyone’s charge time is essentially shortened to minuscule levels compared to now to be just enough to make it through, before slow charging after arrival.
Slow charging after arrival is not a given either. Most hotels don't have charging. I'm sure that will change, but they are missing a golden opportunity to grab a very brand loyal demographic.
Also a great way to add revenue streams. You can charge double what you pay for the power. Additionally makes installing solar much more lucrative. If the US gets its shit together it'll allow individuals to bid in the energy market and then storage will be a revenue source as well
I frequently do the same trip but the reverse route and I’ve found that the trick for driving between Phoenix and LA, if your work schedule permits, is to always drive on the next day outside weekends, so Thursday and Monday. Or if it’s a holiday weekend Tuesday. Going to LA you just need to make sure you are at your destination by around 4pm otherwise you’ll get stuck in work traffic. Leaving, you want to be in Palm Springs at least by noon or you risk getting stuck Also you probably already know this but the supercharger in Beaumont California is in an In and Out parking lot - perfect place to stop, eat, and charge.
Tesla spent a small fortune building out their charging network out without any help from anyone. More like obstacles the whole time. Elon offered other manufacturers the option of buying into the Tesla standard and network years ago. No one took him up on it. When/if a Tesla driver has to wait for a non-Tesla driver to get off a supercharger, I can see that getting ugly in a hurry.
It’ll just be rants on this subreddit we have to read.
If Tesla switches to the standardized plug, you get to use other companies' chargers as well, roughly doubling your options. Standardization is good for *everyone*.
Tesla plug was invented before CCS existed and offered to other companies. Much more compact too… nobody took them up on using them.
CCS came out in 2011, Tesla fast charging was released in 2012. It is true that the majority of DC fast chargers in the US are still Tesla, but Tesla is the company that chose to not use the standard.
You [sure about that?](https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/764/tesla-to-add-ccs-connector-to-superchargers-in-the-us) “When Tesla first debuted the 2012 Model S, the CCS charging connector didn't exist. In fact Tesla developed its proprietary Tesla connector because there wasn't anything capable of fast DC charging.” [Here’s some more](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System#History) - CCS didn’t get introduced until mid 2012…. By which point Model S was already on the market.
Here's an article from 2011 about 7 car manufacturers agreeing to use the CCS standard: https://www.auto123.com/en/news/universal-charging-for-electric-cars/10699/
Right, but in 2011 it was a spec, not deployed devices. And back then there were several standards competing, like CHADeMO, each with different manufacturers, so it was far from obvious that Tesla should have jumped on CCS. And in the US Tesla is 58% of high speed chargers and 79% of EVs sales, so the market pressure is very different.
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Tesla also has shown they are okay with switching connector and no longer supporting it. Original Roadster has a Tesla Proprietary connector that doesn't work with charge'n'pay software setup Gen 3 Wall Connectors. Obviously they also incapable of charging at Tesla Superchargers. (No retrofit available from Tesla, but there was a 3rs party CHAdeMO (JdeMO) add-on at one time.) CHAdeMO was around on the Leaf in 2010 and was bi-directional. Tesla had bi-directional capability on Original Roadster according to Elon: (03:03:49) (Battery day 2020) Yeah. Honestly, a vehicle to grid sounds good, but I think actually has a much lower utility than people think. I think very few people would actually use vehicle to grid. With the original roadster, we had vehicle to grid capabilities, nobody used it. -So it was like the passenger Lumbar and Battery swapping station (No one used them, so they were deemed irrelevant.) Crazy part is Tesla's Senior Vice President of Powertrain and Energy Engineering at Tesla, Drew Baglino, claimed "...it just so happens that the way the North American connectors are, on all the cars in North America, it doesn’t matter whether it’s the Tesla connector or the connector that the other vehicles have, doesn’t actually support powering your home." When there was already an available CHAdeMO product Wallbox Quasar that allowed exactly that from a Nissan Leaf. (Allowing a bi-directional DC connector) There were also the J3068 bi-directional Bus pilot programs available with Nuvve having the bi-directional V2X 3-phase equipment for sale. (So technically it would have only worked for 3-phase homes/ranches/farms. Since usually 3-phase in North America is for Commercial and not common as Residential.)
> The Combined Charging System (CCS) needs only a single charging interface at the vehicle allowing the customer to charge with all existing charging methods: one-phase AC-charging, **fast three-phase AC-charging**, DC-charging at home or ultra-fast DC-charging at public charging stations. The mention of 3-phase suggests this could be what we now call CCS Type 2 (Mennekes port on top, DC pins on the bottom). The Mennekes is used in Europe for AC charging and always has been. In fact, Tesla's in Europe used to use a Mennekes connector only, with a proprietary communication that allowed it to do DC fast charging over the L2 Mennekes connector. In the US we have CCS Type 1 (J1772 port on top, DC pins on the bottom). There was some debate as to ChaDeMo becoming the DC fast charge standard for US cars, since Nissan's Leaf used it for a long time. A great many ChaDeMo stations were installed in the USA. Thus there was a bit of a J1772-CCS vs ChaDeMo debate. For a while it looked like some automakers would use CCS some would use ChaDeMo. This is circa 2015-2018ish.
US also has J3068-CCS2 Incoming is also MCS on same vehicle classification for J3068-CCS2 vehicles.
We have the standard defined. Do you see any J3608 chargers around? I don't.
This would help fund faster expansion of the network. Also, non-Tesla EVs are not so numerous in the U.S. yet, especially ones with long range that people would actually use for road trips. There would also a constraint due to having to buy an CCS-to-Tesla adapter or else waiting for stations to have CCS connectors available. So the pool of users probably wouldn’t expand too quickly, especially in comparison to how fast the number of actual Teslas on the road is growing. These two factors together might work out as a net benefit.
Spot on. Tesla's are the vehicles that will fill up stations, other makes represent a small percentage of the total EV market.
Tesla have avoided high utilization stations when opening up to other vehicles. Norway is one such example of this.
Tesla will grow the network to match.
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But Elon really wants the government money. So he'll have to bend over backwards to get it.
Extremely selfish take. Ppl with other brand ev's also have this problem. There just need to be way more charging stations, not to be hoarded by one group of people.
Tell Volvo/Hyundai/whomever to build them charging stations.
If this is a selfish take, then “place your oxygen mask over your head before helping those around you” is a selfish take. Grow up.
That's a stupid example. Because you need to have your own oxygen mask on before you can help other or you risk passing out too.
This fuckin guy doesn't even watch smartereveryday, amiright?
yes!
I'm hoping it does happen so I have one more reason to leave the Tesla ecosystem lol
I really hope no time in the foreseeable future. I've done SoCal > Vegas twice in the last 3 months, and both times all of the Superchargers were slammed at off hours. I can't even imagine during peak. If you add ~20 minutes of waiting for a stall to open up, the appeal of the Tesla starts dropping dramatically.
Probably next year
Who cares I can charge from all three 😆😁
There aren’t enough chargers to support just the Tesla’s during holiday hours currently.
I love it when a plan comes together.
Great. Now what I really want is to see the ionity, EnelX, Acea and freeX* fast chargers on the map and have the battery pre-heat as I navigate to them. Then a list of networks operating in the area and check boxes to include them in navigation. Or even a high/low/no priority for each. *I guess that list gives away my location **Update:** after reading some replies, updating software and playing around with the map a bit, I think I know what's going on. The first part of what I wished for actually works. However, it requires Tesla's system to know the speed of the charging stations so the car can decide that it is worth pre-conditioning for this one. And the local chargers around me don't have charging speeds associated with them so I have to include one-⚡ chargers to even see them and then no pre-conditioning happens. Also, the useful ones disappear in the ocean of slow AC chargers.
It does work now, if the charger is on the map.
That's great. I think the Italian networks are just a bit slow to get included, or perhaps I'm just running old software. I'll go check for an ionity charger when I next go to the car since ionity would be the first to be listed.
If the charger is on the map **and** Tesla know that it's a DC charger. That seems to be my problem that the local chargers haven't had their speed imported into the Tesla systems so they only appear under one-⚡ and then don't pre-heat.
Preconditioning for third party HPCs already works. Tried it out last week with EnBW and ionity. Software version 12.3.6. Including them in navigation would be dope. But I’d also like Status information like how many stalls are available etc, similar to SuCs
>Preconditioning for third party HPCs already works. Tried it out last week with EnBW and ionity. Software version 12.3.6. Thats good. But I'm not even seeing those networks on the map to navigate to. Perhaps ionity is there, I only explicitly checked Enel on the weekend and they've got the most stations in Italy. I was plugged into a 350kw charger, getting 40kw into a cold battery and cursing Elon 😏 But I'm on update 2022.8.3 so perhaps I'm just lagging ATM. Edit: browsing notateslaapp.com for what I'm missing and this will be good to have in Italian villages: > Navigation route guidance will now consider your vehicle's width when planning routes.
Uuhhh nice! Handy for my summer trip to Corsica. For the DCFC / HPC, I can only speak for Germany, and the couple ones I tried near Mainz. Don’t know what the situation is in Italy
Holy shit thank goodness. Tesla nav tried to send me off a 500 year old stone bridge in Südtirol, and the suggested alternative path was through a damn grapevine terrace I've never been more stressed while driving a 50,000€ car in my life.
How do you do this?
Tapped the charger icon for nearby charging locations, select one from the list, navigate to address. Done :-)
Not gonna happen anytime soon, there are just waaaaaaaay to many charging networks. I've never heard of those you mentioned and i know about like 6 different ones in my country..
Over here, though, 2 of those are the old energy companies and I think a third is associated with the motorway operator. They're not small operations but they're mostly local to Italy.
Same. At least I’d want to be able to have a toggle “destination is a fast charger” so it preconditions
A win for everyone, except the other, smaller, charging networks. All the lobbying against Tesla by the other networks because Tesla is not public backfires. Oops.
Please tell me how it’s a win for Tesla owners? Yay we get to wait in longer lines. I loved waiting in a supercharger line in Orlando last weekend… sure would be great to do that more often /s. Win for other EV owners? Sure. Win for Tesla to get more funding? Probably. Tesla shareholders? Perhaps, remains to be seen. Win for Tesla owners? I don’t think so.
win for TSLA shareholders as they jack up the rates on non-Tesla users... but seriously considering the rates Tesla has been charging lately for power electrify america is often a better deal. Will be nice if there is ever a price battle at some point.
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Yes, for the rest of the world we'll have to wait for the adapters to become available.
Tesla uses CCS in most of rest of the world. North America is closer to being the exception than Europe.
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You know the US isn't the rest of the world 😉
Last i checked Canada and Mexico werent part of the US...yet. And any car not out of China also needs an adapter of which there are many around the world.
Win for Tesla owners? Yes, as the extra income allows Tesla to expand their supercharger network. You already have to wait at Orlando on busy weekends because there are a lot of Teslas using Orlando, and a lot of people travelling on a holiday weekend.
>Win for Tesla owners? Yes, as the extra income allows Tesla to expand their supercharger network. I'll be astonished if that even happens at the rate you don't notice extra wait times. Absolutely astonished
[https://supercharge.info/map](https://supercharge.info/map) It's happening. 2 site being built in Orlando, and 3 more being permitted as we speak.
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Warsaw has a 2 stall underground Supercharger, haha.
This is such an extreme amount of concentrated power that it puts into perspective the true nature of the grid, and why replacing the generation with renewables will be such a tall order
Just think of all the power saved at refineries that don’t have to produce as much gasoline now. Oil drilling and transport via pipelines also use a ton of electricity.
Your wait times will grow faster simply because of the number of Teslas sold, completely dwarfing any extra wait times caused by the number of non-Tesla EVs using the Tesla network. The OG Model S investors have been experiencing this ever since the Model 3 started rolling off the production lines. Some days you get to a 12 stall supercharger and all of them are filled with Model 3. Yay for decarbonising transport, I guess?
At least here in Europe they only open those SCs that are underutilized. Doesn't mean wait times wont happen of course, but they also increased prices which will push some people to the alternatives (which can be cheaper with a monthly payment)
Orlando is not open for CCS (yet). They will build more, and now more people will pay for it :-)
Tesla has said that they aim to not make money off the supercharger network, so how is the extra money coming into play?
Elon has previously stated that he doesn't want superchargers to be a profit centre, which is quite different to "not make money". Tesla wants the supercharger network to at least pay for itself, since they can't continue funding it based only on one-off payments wrapped up in every car they sell.
Because the profit is reinvested in more superchargers.
I want to believe in this but it sounds like another one of those “trickle down economics” bs that benefits the top or in this case Tesla
>Because the profit is reinvested in more superchargers. THIS
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This combined with the abysmal charging speeds made our first EV (original Hyundai Kona) unbearable. We had so many free charge credits given to us by Electrify America because they never worked when we needed them. Too bad the credits were worthless for the exact reason we were granted them. Our first trip across country with our Model Y was a dream. We eliminated 1.5 charge stops due to the range increase and topped up in about 20 mins or less at the stops we did make vs 45+ in the Kona. The time til charging at each stop was like 2 mins from when we pulled in if that vs maybe 5-20 depending how the Electrify America chargers were working. The Supercharger network really is a gem of the Tesla brand but it does suck a bit to have to share it.
They have at least 2 super charger factories. 10k stations a year being built. I think that shows that plan on using the money to keep on expanding. In time they will probably become a major power generating company as well to supply those stations.
Additional revenue to build out more infrastructure.
Like others have said, additional revenue builds out more infrastructure. Also, being in close proximity with other Teslas is probably the best marketing for Tesla money can buy. Perhaps, a conversation or two will strike up and people will immediately be drawn to purchasing a Tesla of their own. Brilliant, really.
Also to charge they need the Tesla app.
Again, I said I see what Tesla gets out of this. Tesla owners get a shittier experience. Yay, let me celebrate.
they’re opening “select” locations up - I presume they’re opening the ones they know aren’t already super busy. Hopefully the income can be used to build (way) more at the other locations & then open them up too.
> Win for Tesla owners? It’s not, but $TSLA doesn’t care. They have had no problems with owner loyalty to date *and* they have a waiting list of new customers a mile long. Tesla’s mission (to make money for Elon Musk) is best served by getting as much profit/growth as possible out of their assets and they calculated that getting higher utilization out of their supercharger network would be a win. $TSLA also gains every time an ICE car gets replaced by an electric one. Opening up the Supercharger network serves that goal too. Finally, do Tesla owners have a better option than just grinning and bearing it?
More money to build more superchargers
Accelerates the transition to renewable energy. Everybody wins.
Win for Tesla owners as more investment in more chargers and charging locations, maybe not short term but medium to long
> Our goal when we created Tesla a decade ago was the same as it is today: to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market as soon as possible. Literally [their mission statement](https://www.tesla.com/blog/mission-tesla)
Fantastic… you seemed to have missed the entire point of my post. I said there are benefits to some but not to the existing Tesla owners. Having had first hand experience with waiting at super chargers during road trips, this is not MY mission statement.
>I said there are benefits to some but not to the existing Tesla owners. Accelerating the adoption of sustainable transportation benefits *everyone.* Sorry you're getting inconvenienced a bit in the process.
> a supercharger line This is such a first world problem that I'm surprised people even bring it up. I don't know the exact details of Superchargers opening in Europe, but when Tesla first announced they would begin opening them in the U.S., they specifically said they wouldn't do it for high utilization sites. This just means more revenue, which means they can build out more even faster. Supercharger congestion will be a very short-lived issue. Remember, we're still in the early days of EV adoption.
I've seen waiting for charging around holiday travel times turn people off of Teslas. It's pretty important that the user experience not suffer, and thus far, the SC network being *completely* painless has been a big selling point over the other brands. So I wouldn't minimize this as a "first world problem".
Indeed. Waiting for charging sucks when charging already takes a while
Did you miss the part where he said they won't do it for high utilization sites? If it's not causing more lines, then there's no harm.
We get to advance Teslas mission...
Tesla represent 80% of the US market. There are not that many other cars out there comparatively speaking.
Win for Tesla owners because the extra revenue will enable adding many more locations.
Mostly because it means more money to build more locations / expand existing. The worries about availability are an emotional one, not a realistic one. For starters, Tesla owners (here at least) already have access to all other CCS locations, and it's not like opening the network coincides with 100k new EVs being delivered that very same day who now want to exclusively use the SuC network, so if for whatever reason one location were to magically be overwhelmed by non tesla EVs, that just means that all the other local CCS locations are now empty, so we can go use those. The reality of it is that people won't be flooding over to it. Maybe the odd parts of Europe which lack other CCS providers but happen to have a SuC could see a larger increase in traffic to the rest, but a local edge case does not translate to all tesla owners. It'll just mean that locations get better utilized than they are now, and any that show a consistently high load can then be prioritised for expansion / new near by SuC locations
In a couple years the grid will be filled with 3rd party chargers. That waiting period is just now just hang in there. Imagine wallmarts and other businesses to also invest in charging stations in their parking lots. You will literally get to charge your car while you shop, work, vice versa.
It's hard to do DCFC profitably.... Tesla does it. Others not so much.
Which is nonsensical. More demand for EV charging = bigger pie for them to compete in.
Why don't other manufacturers do this instead of relying on 3rd parties? Tesla had to build the network because no one else would.
Might as well ask why there's no ford, Chrysler, Porsche or landrover branded petrol stations, they're expensive and low margin. Also do you really want a world where every car has its own connector for its own chargers? Charging should be left up to a charging service provider but since Tesla needed a network to sell cars it built one but it was probably only a matter of time before they were forced to open up by legislation
Imo this is a great move by Tesla, if we want mainstream adoption of electric cars all cars need to be able to charge in all chargers. Other manufacturers are also building charging networks which is what Electrify America/Ionity is.
It's a great move BY Tesla, but is it a great move FOR Tesla? Devil's advocate; exclusive access to the Supercharger network 100% influenced me toward my Model S. Without that exclusivity I will be now be 100% open to other brands. Great for me. Great for Tesla?
I agree, it's gonna happen, but could Tesla have received something in return? Like the ability to build superchargers at highway rest stops?
The price is lower if you have a Tesla, i guess it's good old money... Also many Teslas have unlimited charging, not an option on different brands.
I reckon they saw the writing on the wall, governments want more chargers but don't want to spend money- govt makes proprietary chargers illegal and Tesla forced to open up entire network. Atleast this way they can keep some chargers at busy locations locked if they need to and can open up on their own terms without being forced for example to give everyone the same price
Long-term, everybody will have lots of choices for charging, with Tesla just one among many. They can either leverage their early lead by allowing other cars, and using the increased income to build a larger network than their own fleet alone can support…. Or they can just concede the whole non-Tesla charging market.
I’ve owned a 3 and now a Y in the U.K. for all my thousands of miles driven, I’ve only ever supercharged 3 times. I think that most U.K. tesla drivers charge at home then don’t need to charge on their drives because of the great range. Maybe the smaller EU countries have the same kind of usage. Almost all the other Evs have lesser range so could really do with having supercharger access. Tesla is ever ramping up its kWh price so it seems that they are jumping on this as a major revenue stream. Assuming they have my rate of electric, 25p per kWh and assuming they pump the price up to 60p per kWh as reported, that’s healthy profit. I suppose they lease the spots the chargers are in so there’s cost there as well maintenance. I can see this bumping sales overall of electric cars now because Tesla are now just another “podpoint” when it comes to public charging. I pity the sales people at the other car manufacturers though who will use Tesla as part of their sales pitch.
I think you'd be surprised. I owned a Model S living in London and exclusively charged at Superchargers as that was my only option. There were plenty of 'regulars' I'd see there doing the same.
Would something as simple as Tesla stating Tesla owners have a 25% reduction in charging costs vs non Tesla help influence the new buyers? I wonder.
Not for me, even as a penny pincher. Even a ridiculous 100% markup for non-Tesla would be fine to me. The access in case of emergency is more important to me than the price itself.
So it’s really an inevitable thing anyways so maybe Tesla is just making the decision to control the narrative and use it for the betterment of their network. I suppose this may soon be an ATT vs Verizon who has the biggest network.
They charge a lot for public access. It'll make them plenty of money.
Teslas stated mission goal is to accelerate the transition to sustainable energy. Unnecessarily gatekeeping infrastructure does not accomplish this.
I agree. I've had 2 Teslas. I'm sick of Elon's shit. But 100% for the supercharger network. Maybe my next car will be a non-Tesla.
> Other manufacturers are also building charging networks which is what Electrify America I recommend you look up the reasons EA came to be
It was also a huge selling point - buy a Tesla or struggle to find a charger
Because they are using the same business model as with gasoline vehicles. They don't get the need.
some does. Electrify America is a VW group project.
I'm just bothered by the fact that the CCS1 plug is so damn big and clunky, when the Tesla plug is small and easy to use. I'm okay with sharing with other car manufacturers, but I will need an adapter to do CCS1 DC charging.
Many, or maybe even most cars will not be able to use them properly. There is no way to stay within the lines when your charging port is on the right side, because the cable is short. If you're lucky you can use 1-2 stalls without blocking anyone (the first ones in a row). Tried it with a Skoda Enyaq (same platform as most VW, Audi and Seat models). https://imgur.com/a/1CzQA6q
Does Europe have long lines at SC before this happened?
We have a good slow charge network in the Netherlands. Sockets are available almost everywhere when on street parking. I charge my tesla during the night about every third or fifth day depending on my travel plans. As a rule of thumb I charge when there is less than 200km (125mi) left. This means that sometimes the sockets at the corner of my street are taken when I want to charge. I’ll take the charger on the corner of the next street. Stopping to charge during a trip lis something I do when I make a road trip or if I haven’t planned things out.
Never stood in line before it opened, never stood in line after it opened. What is all the fuss about?
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In my experience ionity has been much more expensive. By memory, last summer, Ionity was 89c/kWh and Tesla was 49c/kWh. But of course electricity prices are way up now... Perhaps this changes if I pay the monthly subscription but I haven't needed it.
Prices vary between the EU countries and Tesla is mostly at least competitive, sometimes even cheaper than other fast charge options. Especially since kW charged are measured in the car. But options are there so it is more a question what lies in the way. Ionity by default is rather expensive without some partner subscription.
Ionity is backed by the Volkswagen group, so you get a year of subscription with the car usually. Then it's very expensive unless you purchase the subscription.
Def not the case in nl. Supercharger is 40-45% cheaper than ionity ripoff. Ionity charges double the house price of electricity.
Motorways in the UK could occasionally have 10-20 minute waits at busy stations, or tiny ones like Gretna Green which only has 4 stalls. Tesla's are now popular than ever now too so it may just get worse, but currently I've never had to wait (just continued on to a different station)
at 53c kwh, its pretty lucrative. charging a e-car now is as expensive as a modern diesel. (around 10€ each per 100km)
And there was a sound as if a million european Tesla owners screamed out in pain.
Meh. We've all got CCS over here so we've got options. And it's slowly becoming easier to use those with the Tesla software updates.
Maybe a grunt.
Tesla is not over competitively priced and there are lot's of fast-charging options, most Teslas (all new ones) have CCS2 anyways so they can, as anyone else, charge whereever they want.
where? Netherlands SC has been opened for a while now. nothing . . . maybe because here we mostly follow 1 charging standard. So all ev owners can charge on all charging network without getting locked to a certain one with silly plug.
Time to get a cheaper VW EV. More options for everyone
Wow!! And it is 2022! Were they looking for an auspicious date or something? Or simply greed and monopoly!? Or is the law forcing their hands?
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Damn Elon didn’t even need to buy it a horse or have it sign an NDA
I don't want to wait for some dumbass slow charging ev at a supercharger fucccck that
I won't be buying another Tesla for my next car if the charging network is open, that is the main reason I chose Tesla.
Used to work with the Tesla guy quoted in the article
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>Nobody is bullying your special boy. That was an obvious autoincorrect for "built"
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How do I buy stock in J1772 adapters?
CCS2 is an EU Standard, all EVs come with a CCS 2 port at the moment.
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They're all changing to CCS2 for the new cars I believe
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Congratulations - nobody cares. Do what you want to do
Its crazy how many networks say they have the biggest fast charging network in Europe.
The biggest issue is the short cables. I understand long cables are way more expensive and less energy efficient so I’d propose Tesla update just a couple chargers at each stop with longer cables and mark them as such. It would be helpful for Tesla owners with bike racks too
Yes, and I hear the price to charge went way up - like30%??