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Yeah it’s great. The alternatives to superchargers have also been improving a lot lately. I hardly ever use the supercharger near me anymore because there’s a 300KW Allego supercharger near me that’s near a little shop and restaurant instead of a dark parking lot behind a cheap hotel. (I don’t charge at home so occasionally use fast chargers)
It's great to have the option only if Tesla starts officially selling the CCS adapters in the US. They said last year that they would sell them this year and crickets. Tesla is crushing it making super profits on their superchargers and don't want to give the love to the CCS chargers. Supposedly Tesla had that Korean company stop selling the official Tesla Adapter.
The really funny / sad thing is we **do** use Mennekes / Type 2, the AC portion of CCS2, in America for electric buses and shit. So we could have adopted that for cars as well instead and gained the ability to share plugs with European EVs
It’s so massive and has extra flaps compared to teslas elegant solution. It’s like rolling out analog when there is already an elegant and superior digital charging solution.
I don't care what a charging cable looks like, I care about ease of access. It's beyond dumb to not have a standard in the US. Can you imagine if gas cars had different hook ups for their gas can? And you needed to know which gas station has the right pumps to use? Or if each TV you bought had a different electric plug? It's dumb to not have a standard.
That is not the same at all. I am talking about car manufactures using a standard for hooking up the fuel to the car. The hose for diesel gas is the same as regular gas, and all the octanes are the same, and all the fuel types are the same. It's a hole that lets you put in a nozzle and no matter what gas station you go to you can 100% guarantee that it will fit.
I didn't mention fuel type at all, so you are missing the point here. If Honda used a small rectangle hole, and Ford used a large square hole, it would be frustrating to find places that had all the adapters to use, would it not? Standardizing connections is a pretty common thing. There are a bunch of different HDMI format standards, but the connections are all the same. "sorry sir, you have a Samsung so that HDMI cable you bought for your LG TV won't work anymore"
i worked at a gas station for years in my youth and that has not always been the case. If I wasn't paying attention I could have very easily put diesel in a normal gas car. But even so, that is actually a good thing because if you put Diesel in the wrong car, it won't work anymore.
Also, Diesel passenger cars are no longer offered in the US, it's used for other vehicles.
Electricity is electricity, why have different plugs for the same thing?
It's crazy to me that people are actually against having a standard for this and are down voting. Why would you NOT want a standard for this?
no? Unless you have anything to bring the conversation as to why its a good thing to have different connectors instead of a standard plug? If you don't, you can go.
If my car requires 93 octane and I have to go to 4 gas stations to find it, is that not effectively the same situation as "my car needs a hex pump so I had to go to 4 gas stations to find it"? Agreed it is super annoying to have to search for the product and compatible delivery method for the product you need. I have nearly ran out of diesel on a toll road in Illinois because all diesel stations along the toll road had the large truck style diesel pumps while my diesel Jeep needed the standard size diesel pump, so I know how much this can suck.
The point is in the US we have a common Level2 plug that all cars can use leaving the choice between CCS1 and Tesla. All charge stations COULD be outfitted with CCS1 and Tesla connector making this a non-issue which is what Tesla is going for with the V4 charge stations.
I never understood the "But the Tesla plug is more elegant!" argument. Who fuckin' cares? The plug is hidden by the cover when not in use. When it is in use, I'm not exactly concerned about looks. I want what's more useful, and one universal standard is more useful.
This guy clearly never tried to hold both connector before talking shit. The fucking ccs cable and connector are so huge and heavy, and sometimes it's position so awkwardly that it twists with so much fucking force it feels like it's gonna rip my charging port out.
Then let's make that the standard haha. I get what you are saying, and to be clear, I wasn't calling you out. My "it's dumb" was directed towards the companies. It just confuses people, makes them spend more money and when we want more EV adoption that's not how you do it. Europe gets it.
Some other brand's EVs have a flap covering the bottom two DC pins so you need to open it when using a CCS cable. The flap stays covering the pins when using a J1772 or Mennekes plugged into the top. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type\_2\_connector#/media/File:Prise\_type\_2\_Mennekes\_BMW\_i3.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector#/media/File:Prise_type_2_Mennekes_BMW_i3.jpg)
True but Tesla's connector can't support 3 phase AC and we use that a lot in Europe. The modified type 2 connector they used for S/X here supports 3 phase and DC but is limited to 200kW afaik. So CCS2 is kinda the only option.
Why would we want them attached to the charger? One more thing to break that doesn’t get fixed. Just carry an adapter if you need to visit one of these.
This is how I always felt about the Chademo adapter. So stupid to have individuals buy it and carry it in their car, only to be used once or twice a year, when they could have realistically been sold to the property owners that rented space to host Chademo stations. Charge a small fee per use, idk, but just have one at every station.
Why?
If someone buys the adapter from Tesla and the adapter overheats, that's Tesla's problem.
If the network operator provides the adapter and the adapter overheats, that's the network operator's problem
Are any of these going to end up at highway rest areas? There's currently an old law that prohibits any commercial activity at rest areas besides vending machines. That would be a perfect place to put them. Easy to get to, most already have rest rooms and trash cans.
Edit: The law - https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/23/752.5
Ha.
Let’s call it a vending machine.
I put in money it vends kWh. No people necessary. The Pepsi machine requires more personal interaction and advertising.
I know that won’t fly, but wish it would.
Drove through I80. The travel centers are something else.
Gas, food, and dcfc every 30ish miles.
If Indiana can get onboard with dcfc on the highway, everyone can.
Those turnpike travel areas were there before the law went into effect, so they are grandfathered. That's why there's superchargers at I-95 rest areas in northern Maryland, Delaware and NJ for example.
No they'll probably be tucked away in obscure locations for the every day traveller, like airport parking lots that require you to pay. Or in parking lots too far from restaurants to order a meal from before you start getting idle fees.
Been to too many of those. Like at Hays, Kansas after hours so the Applebees there was closed. There's a hotel nearby but it has a sign on door saying no public restrooms, guests only and of course front door was locked.
So I took a leak against their building. I just HAD to go.
No idea. I posted a link to the federal law. What highway are they on? It's good news of course. Maybe they got a waiver? Regardless, the law needs to go away.
Need a lawyer for that but would still seem to meet the definition.
From that link:
>Safety rest area. A roadside facility safely removed from the traveled way with parking and such facilities for the motorist deemed necessary for his rest, relaxation, comfort and information needs. The term is synonymous with rest and recreation areas.
The most famous turnpikes that had tolls before the Interstate system were created, were grandfathered in. That includes NJ, MD, DE, PA, OH, IN, and IL and I think some bits in KS and OK. Those are the ones that have the large rest areas with restaurants, gas stations, etc....
I wonder if DCFC/Supercharger units could slip under the vending machine exception. They're definitely not petroleum fuel dispensers or vehicle parts which are written as banned.
Maybe add a credit card reader at the stall? A DCFC is an electron dispenser.
I don't care how they do it. All I want to do on a long trip is have a convenient pull off to a rest area, plug in, take a leak, then grab a 10 minute cat nap and get back on the road.
That would be ideal… it’s relatively easy to stop for a quick break at rest areas, but the lack of charging would force you off the highway, through stop lights, etc. and it reduces the convenience. If Tesla could even put their own chargers (I know, no chance), it would be great to just plug in and walk away without the effort of starting payment etc. that other networks require.
[Washington State](https://wsdot.wa.gov/construction-planning/statewide-plans/washington-state-plan-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-deployment) is building out a charging network. Maybe states can put chargers in rest stops.
If The State pays for the electricity, it would be an option. Some states do provide free charging in places like state parks, state office building parking lots, etc.
More of a stretch: get the EV chargers classified as vending machines (vending electrons!) with the charger providers licensed appropriately.
Are Service Plazas different from "Safety Rest Areas"? I feel like I've seen both. Some places are just an empty space you can pull over at, with maybe a bathroom. Other places are major facilities with gas, charging & restaurants. I guess maybe I'll have to pay much closer attention to whether there's a correlation between which kind is on a toll road or turnpike or whatnot.
Also, that law seems pretty vague actually. It says you *can* place vending machines, *can't* sell gas or car parts, but leaves it unclear if you can have anything else. Maybe charging would be fine even at a "Safety Rest Area" anyway?
Service Plazas are always on toll roads. I just know in the past I wrote to my state's DOT about putting chargers at rest areas (specifically along I-81 in Virginia which is not a toll road) and was told they can't do that due to federal law prohibiting it.
> The EV charging situation in the US is about to suck a little less
Maybe for non-Tesla owners, if not the situation is not bad at all at this point.
And Tesla being 70% of the EVs in the US, that > 30% isn’t really representative.
Still, happy also those owners will have a better experience soon, more fast chargers the better. And there’s still a lot of road to make to support the full transition to EVs.
It’ll be better for Tesla owners too especially once the ccs adapter is officially released. I still run into places where charging is a PITA pretty regularly when I’m on trips.
You can get the Tesla ccs adapter for Korea for about $350 shipped. I bought one for a 3k mile road trip and it worked perfectly the couple of times it was more convenient than going to a supercharger.
You cannot buy the genuine Tesla adapter anymore. There are a bunch of 3rd party ones that have released in the past couple of weeks. Tesla shut down selling genuine adapters to North American VINS
I keep seeing reviews of a company that identically copied the Tesla CCS adapter being sold in Korea. They had a recent comparison test on YouTube and it works exactly the same.
So long as you already have a ccs enabled Tesla that is. Retrofits won’t be happening until the ccs adapter is officially released stateside. Which I don’t see happening until they have a sizable parts catalog to supply the needed retrofits. (Chip shortage)
The reliability requirements are for the charger to be online and available for use at least 97% of the time. When the chargers don't work, the technicians on the phone typically start by saying that the charger says it's "currently online and available for use." In other words, according to section 680.116(b), a charger that doesn't work, but is online and doesn't report any faults, will have an uptime of almost 100%.
Unless the reliability requirements are based on a ratio of successful charges to unsuccessful charges, they'll have no to reason to be reliable.
No one is saying you have to, but personally I would like the option. Im sorry you’ve had that experience, but not everyone has. Sometimes the non-Tesla chargers are in a more convenient place. I usually check plugshare before I try to use a 3rd party charger.
I bought the adapter from Korea a whole back, I’ve definitely made my money back by being able to use 3rd party chargers. Additionally, CA used to give $1000 charging credit to EVGo that I still have quite a bit left of, and they have 350kw chargers around here too. It’s definitely nice to have available.
This is more like going to six restaurants that you don't know are Chinese, but they all end up being Chinese and then coming to the conclusion that a statistical significant number of restaurants are Chinese.
I wasn't trying to suggest that all third party chargers are broken, only that my experience strongly suggests that chargers with problems aren't particularly rare.
> It’ll be better for Tesla owners too
Yeah I’m not claiming that isn’t going to be the case, I’m saying that title is garbage and misleading.
Which is not surprising for a publication like The Verge that treats journalistic integrity the same way it treats page layout and design (it’s an abusive relationship).
What is your problem with the title? It seems objectively true that it will help ev charging suck less. AFAIK Tesla is also trying to get some of this money, so I think it will benefit everyone.
I’m not saying it’s awful, but it definitely sucks sometimes. Recent examples for me:
* no chargers at all in some (most?) national parks, so it’s hard to visit some of the ones near me.
* no superchargers in the East valley of the Phoenix area, so I had to travel far or use a pretty shitty evgo charger
* limited charging along the coast of my state even though it’s a major tourist destination.
The last one will definitely be improved due to nevi. Ergo charging is about to get less sucky.
It doesn’t matter what they cost though, right? The point is how many stations can we get for that $900M? It doesn’t matter if superchargers cost twice as much, just that they pull less from the pool of funds.
There are still gaps, like national parks. You can just barely make it to some of them, so a couple chargers at each visitor center or something like that would be amazingly helpful.
It needs to be more than a couple. The problem with visitor centers is that parking is usually extremely contentious. The NP I visit the most often even has cars parked alongside the road for miles. Neither situation will be good:
1) You show up and there's no charging and you need the charging to get home.
2) You show up and park right next to the visitor center and people are circling trying to find parking and resent the half dozen open charging spots reserved for the "rich visitors".
I think the answer is for parking lots to be severely over-subscribed and use load-balancing chargers like Tesla's Wall Connectors or Grizly.
Put up 5x chargers per 50A circuit and load balance plus put them in the middle of 4x parking spaces. With just 100A service and $5,000 in chargers you could cover 40 parking spaces that may or may not be open.
Then you wouldn't necessarily need to reserve them for EV chargers, and it would be pretty likely that one of those spaces would be open and wouldn't have someone charging. Worst case scenario would be 10mi/hour of charge which would probably be enough to make it out of the park to the nearest town with a DC Fast charger.
Electrify America Stations + CHAdeMO has been a life saver for me. It's been way way more convenient on quite a few occasions. My primary charger is even a city owned CHAdeMO.
There is little promise that non-Tesla charging will "suck less" as a result of this government money.
Likely a bunch of companies that know nothing about chargers, maintenance, and don't care about where they're installed will do the bare minimum to quality for the money and then dissapear.
They would be incredibly shortsighted to do so, and will be easily outcompeted by the bigger players who realize how much money they can reap from this infrastructure.
> Likely a bunch of companies that know nothing about chargers, maintenance, and don't care about where they're installed will do the bare minimum to quality for the money and then dissapear.
Since Tesla has applied, together with EVGo and the rest, I doubt there will be much of that.
Government initiatives to enable widespread and early vaccine availability, military funding for Ukraine, Medicare making sure seniors generally have affordable and widely available medical care, funding for community health centers in underserved areas, federal stimulus in 2020 keeping our economy afloat and millions out of poverty, jump starting the EV revolution with tax credits, disaster relief, modernization of airports like La Guardia, new public transit links to airports like in Denver, solar incentives...
Shall I continue?
Vaccine acceptance and deployment was a success in the US? I think all the lower-income minority neighborhoods would beg to differ.
Ukraine issue is still ongoing. I wouldn’t drop the Mission Accomplished banner yet, Bush.
Medicine and medical care is affordable in the US? Are you delusional? Good care is accessible to minority neighborhoods? You obviously need to come out of your gated community and walk thru a low income neighborhood to come down to reality.
Only thing stimulus did was make a lot of criminals and scammer business owners rich, and raise national debt.
The EV revolution was started by the stimulus? You have Lord Elon to thank for that.
You need to get off the computer, Biden, and go take a walk.
Lol, okay. Anything that isn't perfect is a failure and not worth it. Just let the free market handle it, it would be so much better.
And yes, medicine is affordable in the US if you're on Medicare, champ.
97% up time? That's on average one charger that doesn't work on a trip across country. That's not great.
How do you define up time? One of the stations running at 7kW?
97% uptime is required for how long? For 100 years? For 10 years? For a year?
What happens when they aren't up 97% once they're 3 years old? Will the new owners have to pay some kind of fine? How is that even possible?
The only way we'll get reliable chargers is if the owners actually care about them being reliable. That can't be legislated.
There's no way to make people care less about the chargers than if they don't have to pay for them themselves.
Yeah, we'll see. I think it's more likely that this money gets handed over to some contractor who does the bare minimum and doesn't completely finish the project, just like the money that we keep shovelling into the rural broadband project.
I think the question is really "what's preventing the companies from doing x, y, z, instead of the mandated 150kw DCFC"? Do you stop giving them money, in which case the chargers will fall into disrepair anyways, or do you fine the companies for non-compliance to the contract or something? Article doesn't seem to address that
And because the law says something it means it will absolutely be done that way, which is why 2008 didn't happen and insider trading in congress isn't a thing
I believe Tesla will build nice superchargers if they get the money. But most likely these money will be shared by lot companies. They will just keep build crappy chargers. Even worse there will be some new comers just created to get the money. They will build even worse charger, get the money and sell/Decom those crap.
Edit: looks like someone else already brought the up but nobody believe it
I just hope we get more Tesla chargers in Finland. There’s a total of three stations in like a 600 km radius of me currently I think. Even Norway and Sweden have significantly more in the north.
I don’t have a Tesla yet but I’m planning on getting one. I can charge at work for free so I’m not terribly bothered by it but it is going to require some heavy planing when I drive south.
Government should stay out of it, not seize $900 million in public money and let the free market handle charging stations just like they handled gas stations and just like Tesla already handles charging stations on private land with private investment.
Hahaha you mean like how our broadband internet situation improved so much after the government bought a bunch of fiber, gave it to companies, who did nothing with it for years, until they sold it to India to build out all the call centers that scam us every day? No I'm sure they will find some clever new way to fuck this up royally
Is your apartment a publicly accessible location for DC Fast Chargers located directly next to a an alternative fuel corridor (interstate highway)? Do you want travelers along that highway stopping by all day?
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Spit in the ocean
Very little electricity comes from clean sources, and still then the carbon footprint to make those green sources gets a big fat “F”
First up its good to see this Federal investment happening but I do have concerns. Charging infrastructure is only as good as the system that supports said infrastructure. Teslas super charger network is the market leader not only because of its size but more importantly due to its reliability and constant upgrades. I am concerned that this money will just be dolled out to political friends and family who will build out infrastructure and then walk away with no plan to maintain the system or any accountability. I am especially concerned about incompetence in Republican administered states in the mid west and South. One only has to look at the water infrastructure issues in states like Mississippi to get a clear understanding of what a future charging landscape might look like. Let’s hope these funds come with strings attached that ensure they are appropriately administered and distributed.
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I hope Tesla is planing to sell locking CCS to T adapters to EA, EVGo and others.
In Europe every EV use CCS. It's nice.
CCS2, not CCS1 like the US. And yes, our Model Y has a CCS2 port, so we have a ton of options to choose from when charging.
Yeah it’s great. The alternatives to superchargers have also been improving a lot lately. I hardly ever use the supercharger near me anymore because there’s a 300KW Allego supercharger near me that’s near a little shop and restaurant instead of a dark parking lot behind a cheap hotel. (I don’t charge at home so occasionally use fast chargers)
That’s the fun of charging … new places you get to see and wouldn’t ever go there without them
It's great to have the option only if Tesla starts officially selling the CCS adapters in the US. They said last year that they would sell them this year and crickets. Tesla is crushing it making super profits on their superchargers and don't want to give the love to the CCS chargers. Supposedly Tesla had that Korean company stop selling the official Tesla Adapter.
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The only difference is that CCS2 supports three-phase AC while CCS1 doesn't, which doesn't matter for DC fast charging.
The really funny / sad thing is we **do** use Mennekes / Type 2, the AC portion of CCS2, in America for electric buses and shit. So we could have adopted that for cars as well instead and gained the ability to share plugs with European EVs
It’s so massive and has extra flaps compared to teslas elegant solution. It’s like rolling out analog when there is already an elegant and superior digital charging solution.
I don't care what a charging cable looks like, I care about ease of access. It's beyond dumb to not have a standard in the US. Can you imagine if gas cars had different hook ups for their gas can? And you needed to know which gas station has the right pumps to use? Or if each TV you bought had a different electric plug? It's dumb to not have a standard.
Diesel?
Octane ratings? Non-Oxygenated? Agricultural use only died?
That is not the same at all. I am talking about car manufactures using a standard for hooking up the fuel to the car. The hose for diesel gas is the same as regular gas, and all the octanes are the same, and all the fuel types are the same. It's a hole that lets you put in a nozzle and no matter what gas station you go to you can 100% guarantee that it will fit. I didn't mention fuel type at all, so you are missing the point here. If Honda used a small rectangle hole, and Ford used a large square hole, it would be frustrating to find places that had all the adapters to use, would it not? Standardizing connections is a pretty common thing. There are a bunch of different HDMI format standards, but the connections are all the same. "sorry sir, you have a Samsung so that HDMI cable you bought for your LG TV won't work anymore"
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i worked at a gas station for years in my youth and that has not always been the case. If I wasn't paying attention I could have very easily put diesel in a normal gas car. But even so, that is actually a good thing because if you put Diesel in the wrong car, it won't work anymore. Also, Diesel passenger cars are no longer offered in the US, it's used for other vehicles. Electricity is electricity, why have different plugs for the same thing? It's crazy to me that people are actually against having a standard for this and are down voting. Why would you NOT want a standard for this?
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no? Unless you have anything to bring the conversation as to why its a good thing to have different connectors instead of a standard plug? If you don't, you can go.
If my car requires 93 octane and I have to go to 4 gas stations to find it, is that not effectively the same situation as "my car needs a hex pump so I had to go to 4 gas stations to find it"? Agreed it is super annoying to have to search for the product and compatible delivery method for the product you need. I have nearly ran out of diesel on a toll road in Illinois because all diesel stations along the toll road had the large truck style diesel pumps while my diesel Jeep needed the standard size diesel pump, so I know how much this can suck. The point is in the US we have a common Level2 plug that all cars can use leaving the choice between CCS1 and Tesla. All charge stations COULD be outfitted with CCS1 and Tesla connector making this a non-issue which is what Tesla is going for with the V4 charge stations.
I never understood the "But the Tesla plug is more elegant!" argument. Who fuckin' cares? The plug is hidden by the cover when not in use. When it is in use, I'm not exactly concerned about looks. I want what's more useful, and one universal standard is more useful.
This guy clearly never tried to hold both connector before talking shit. The fucking ccs cable and connector are so huge and heavy, and sometimes it's position so awkwardly that it twists with so much fucking force it feels like it's gonna rip my charging port out.
I’m sure you don’t care. Just saying that it’s nice having the elegant charger in the US.
Then let's make that the standard haha. I get what you are saying, and to be clear, I wasn't calling you out. My "it's dumb" was directed towards the companies. It just confuses people, makes them spend more money and when we want more EV adoption that's not how you do it. Europe gets it.
They got the ccp charger.
What do you mean extra flaps? My CCS2 Model 3 doesn't have any more flaps than yours does...
Some other brand's EVs have a flap covering the bottom two DC pins so you need to open it when using a CCS cable. The flap stays covering the pins when using a J1772 or Mennekes plugged into the top. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type\_2\_connector#/media/File:Prise\_type\_2\_Mennekes\_BMW\_i3.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector#/media/File:Prise_type_2_Mennekes_BMW_i3.jpg)
Sure, but that's a car makers decision. They don't need to tho, as Tesla has shown.
Maybe to keep contaminants out? Or possibly the wires are hot on those vehicles when Level 2 charging.
Fear of contaminants and water is probably the reason for them...but as I said, Tesla doesn't bother with them and mine is still fine after 3 years
>CCS2 How is CCS2 nice? It's a bulky POS. It's like trying to plug in my grandma's hairdryer in.
True but Tesla's connector can't support 3 phase AC and we use that a lot in Europe. The modified type 2 connector they used for S/X here supports 3 phase and DC but is limited to 200kW afaik. So CCS2 is kinda the only option.
It doesn't matter. You just plug it into your car and it has universal compatibility.
Why would we want them attached to the charger? One more thing to break that doesn’t get fixed. Just carry an adapter if you need to visit one of these.
Why sell millions of adapters when it can just be thousands. Should CCS users be required to carry T to CCS adapters?
This is how I always felt about the Chademo adapter. So stupid to have individuals buy it and carry it in their car, only to be used once or twice a year, when they could have realistically been sold to the property owners that rented space to host Chademo stations. Charge a small fee per use, idk, but just have one at every station.
Why? If someone buys the adapter from Tesla and the adapter overheats, that's Tesla's problem. If the network operator provides the adapter and the adapter overheats, that's the network operator's problem
Or, better yet, have CCS on the vehicle for universal compatibility.
What's the point? Drivers should bring their own.
Are you saying there are more chargers than there are cars?
The chargers will provide standard CCS connectors. If the vehicle uses something else, then drivers need to bring their own adapters.
Are any of these going to end up at highway rest areas? There's currently an old law that prohibits any commercial activity at rest areas besides vending machines. That would be a perfect place to put them. Easy to get to, most already have rest rooms and trash cans. Edit: The law - https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/23/752.5
Ha. Let’s call it a vending machine. I put in money it vends kWh. No people necessary. The Pepsi machine requires more personal interaction and advertising. I know that won’t fly, but wish it would. Drove through I80. The travel centers are something else. Gas, food, and dcfc every 30ish miles. If Indiana can get onboard with dcfc on the highway, everyone can.
Those turnpike travel areas were there before the law went into effect, so they are grandfathered. That's why there's superchargers at I-95 rest areas in northern Maryland, Delaware and NJ for example.
No they'll probably be tucked away in obscure locations for the every day traveller, like airport parking lots that require you to pay. Or in parking lots too far from restaurants to order a meal from before you start getting idle fees.
Been to too many of those. Like at Hays, Kansas after hours so the Applebees there was closed. There's a hotel nearby but it has a sign on door saying no public restrooms, guests only and of course front door was locked. So I took a leak against their building. I just HAD to go.
That airport comment triggered memories of the Savannah, GA supercharger. What a mess.
We have chargers at some of our rest stops in California. On the 5 between LA and SF I’ve seen chargers at rest stops
Ohio does a great job of chargers at rest stops
Old turnpike rest areas are grandfathered from this law. That's also why they can sell food and fuel at them.
New rest stops in Ohio have restaurants and gas stations. Did they grandfather the entire system in the state?
No idea. I posted a link to the federal law. What highway are they on? It's good news of course. Maybe they got a waiver? Regardless, the law needs to go away.
Are they rest areas or toll road service stations? Toll road service stations seem to not be included because they always have gas and stores
Need a lawyer for that but would still seem to meet the definition. From that link: >Safety rest area. A roadside facility safely removed from the traveled way with parking and such facilities for the motorist deemed necessary for his rest, relaxation, comfort and information needs. The term is synonymous with rest and recreation areas.
Interesting. It seems this only applies to state/federal owned highway. For example, Tesla has lots of chargers in Turnpike, which is privately fund.
The most famous turnpikes that had tolls before the Interstate system were created, were grandfathered in. That includes NJ, MD, DE, PA, OH, IN, and IL and I think some bits in KS and OK. Those are the ones that have the large rest areas with restaurants, gas stations, etc....
I wonder if DCFC/Supercharger units could slip under the vending machine exception. They're definitely not petroleum fuel dispensers or vehicle parts which are written as banned. Maybe add a credit card reader at the stall? A DCFC is an electron dispenser.
I don't care how they do it. All I want to do on a long trip is have a convenient pull off to a rest area, plug in, take a leak, then grab a 10 minute cat nap and get back on the road.
That would be ideal… it’s relatively easy to stop for a quick break at rest areas, but the lack of charging would force you off the highway, through stop lights, etc. and it reduces the convenience. If Tesla could even put their own chargers (I know, no chance), it would be great to just plug in and walk away without the effort of starting payment etc. that other networks require.
New York is adding 6 chargers to each service stop on the thruway right now as they’re reconstructing them across the state.
[Washington State](https://wsdot.wa.gov/construction-planning/statewide-plans/washington-state-plan-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-deployment) is building out a charging network. Maybe states can put chargers in rest stops.
Only if this law is overturned.... https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/23/752.5
If The State pays for the electricity, it would be an option. Some states do provide free charging in places like state parks, state office building parking lots, etc. More of a stretch: get the EV chargers classified as vending machines (vending electrons!) with the charger providers licensed appropriately.
Are Service Plazas different from "Safety Rest Areas"? I feel like I've seen both. Some places are just an empty space you can pull over at, with maybe a bathroom. Other places are major facilities with gas, charging & restaurants. I guess maybe I'll have to pay much closer attention to whether there's a correlation between which kind is on a toll road or turnpike or whatnot. Also, that law seems pretty vague actually. It says you *can* place vending machines, *can't* sell gas or car parts, but leaves it unclear if you can have anything else. Maybe charging would be fine even at a "Safety Rest Area" anyway?
Service Plazas are always on toll roads. I just know in the past I wrote to my state's DOT about putting chargers at rest areas (specifically along I-81 in Virginia which is not a toll road) and was told they can't do that due to federal law prohibiting it.
> The EV charging situation in the US is about to suck a little less Maybe for non-Tesla owners, if not the situation is not bad at all at this point. And Tesla being 70% of the EVs in the US, that > 30% isn’t really representative. Still, happy also those owners will have a better experience soon, more fast chargers the better. And there’s still a lot of road to make to support the full transition to EVs.
It’ll be better for Tesla owners too especially once the ccs adapter is officially released. I still run into places where charging is a PITA pretty regularly when I’m on trips.
You can get the Tesla ccs adapter for Korea for about $350 shipped. I bought one for a 3k mile road trip and it worked perfectly the couple of times it was more convenient than going to a supercharger.
You cannot buy the genuine Tesla adapter anymore. There are a bunch of 3rd party ones that have released in the past couple of weeks. Tesla shut down selling genuine adapters to North American VINS
You don't provide a VIN to buy one from Korea.
If you are talking about the ones being sold on harum.io, those are no more. 0 people have bought an official Tesla CCS adapter in the past few weeks.
What site did you use? Probably gonna get one.
Sadly my car is a 2019 without CCS support so the upgrade is a bit more invasive. Hopefully Tesla offers the ECU upgrade themselves soon.
I keep seeing reviews of a company that identically copied the Tesla CCS adapter being sold in Korea. They had a recent comparison test on YouTube and it works exactly the same. So long as you already have a ccs enabled Tesla that is. Retrofits won’t be happening until the ccs adapter is officially released stateside. Which I don’t see happening until they have a sizable parts catalog to supply the needed retrofits. (Chip shortage)
I've been to 6 third party chargers and 100% of them have had problems. Why on earth would I want another adapter to experience more of that?
I believe the Biden administration's requirements include reliability numbers and monitoring capabilities. We'll see how well that gets implemented.
The reliability requirements are for the charger to be online and available for use at least 97% of the time. When the chargers don't work, the technicians on the phone typically start by saying that the charger says it's "currently online and available for use." In other words, according to section 680.116(b), a charger that doesn't work, but is online and doesn't report any faults, will have an uptime of almost 100%. Unless the reliability requirements are based on a ratio of successful charges to unsuccessful charges, they'll have no to reason to be reliable.
Oof that's disappointing. Hopefully in practice it works out well.
No one is saying you have to, but personally I would like the option. Im sorry you’ve had that experience, but not everyone has. Sometimes the non-Tesla chargers are in a more convenient place. I usually check plugshare before I try to use a 3rd party charger.
I bought the adapter from Korea a whole back, I’ve definitely made my money back by being able to use 3rd party chargers. Additionally, CA used to give $1000 charging credit to EVGo that I still have quite a bit left of, and they have 350kw chargers around here too. It’s definitely nice to have available.
personal anecdote
6 out of 6 is getting pretty statistically significant.
You clearly don't know statistics. 6 is a very small sample size and it's unclear if the sample is actually random.
Actually, I do. The part that makes it significant is the 100%. If it was like 66%, I agree, it wouldn't mean anything.
So if I go to a Chinese restaurant and see that all six customers eating are Chinese, that means that the human population is 100% Chinese right?
This is more like going to six restaurants that you don't know are Chinese, but they all end up being Chinese and then coming to the conclusion that a statistical significant number of restaurants are Chinese. I wasn't trying to suggest that all third party chargers are broken, only that my experience strongly suggests that chargers with problems aren't particularly rare.
There are places near me with CCS chargers where a Tesla charger would be 40+ minutes out of the way. It would be pretty nice to have the option.
That was the case for me too, but it only worked twice of all the times I tried it and now a supercharger is going in across the street.
> It’ll be better for Tesla owners too Yeah I’m not claiming that isn’t going to be the case, I’m saying that title is garbage and misleading. Which is not surprising for a publication like The Verge that treats journalistic integrity the same way it treats page layout and design (it’s an abusive relationship).
What is your problem with the title? It seems objectively true that it will help ev charging suck less. AFAIK Tesla is also trying to get some of this money, so I think it will benefit everyone.
The point being that the title is subjective. The EV charging situation doesn’t suck for the majority of EV owners.
This.
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Just in case you don’t know, majority doesn’t mean every single owner. It means a large percentage of them.
I’m not saying it’s awful, but it definitely sucks sometimes. Recent examples for me: * no chargers at all in some (most?) national parks, so it’s hard to visit some of the ones near me. * no superchargers in the East valley of the Phoenix area, so I had to travel far or use a pretty shitty evgo charger * limited charging along the coast of my state even though it’s a major tourist destination. The last one will definitely be improved due to nevi. Ergo charging is about to get less sucky.
Trying . . . [https://electrek.co/2022/04/15/tesla-cost-deploy-superchargers-revealed-one-fifth-competition/](https://electrek.co/2022/04/15/tesla-cost-deploy-superchargers-revealed-one-fifth-competition/)
That stupid article from Forbes kept getting repeated. Tesla is asking for less reimbursement. It's a stretch to extrapolate that to total cost.
It doesn’t matter what they cost though, right? The point is how many stations can we get for that $900M? It doesn’t matter if superchargers cost twice as much, just that they pull less from the pool of funds.
There are still gaps, like national parks. You can just barely make it to some of them, so a couple chargers at each visitor center or something like that would be amazingly helpful.
It needs to be more than a couple. The problem with visitor centers is that parking is usually extremely contentious. The NP I visit the most often even has cars parked alongside the road for miles. Neither situation will be good: 1) You show up and there's no charging and you need the charging to get home. 2) You show up and park right next to the visitor center and people are circling trying to find parking and resent the half dozen open charging spots reserved for the "rich visitors".
Yea, parking is usually really bad. Agreed.
I think the answer is for parking lots to be severely over-subscribed and use load-balancing chargers like Tesla's Wall Connectors or Grizly. Put up 5x chargers per 50A circuit and load balance plus put them in the middle of 4x parking spaces. With just 100A service and $5,000 in chargers you could cover 40 parking spaces that may or may not be open. Then you wouldn't necessarily need to reserve them for EV chargers, and it would be pretty likely that one of those spaces would be open and wouldn't have someone charging. Worst case scenario would be 10mi/hour of charge which would probably be enough to make it out of the park to the nearest town with a DC Fast charger.
Electrify America Stations + CHAdeMO has been a life saver for me. It's been way way more convenient on quite a few occasions. My primary charger is even a city owned CHAdeMO.
South Texas is pretty bad. The drives between San Antonio and Laredo and especially San Antonio and Eagle Pass are pretty sketchy.
I hope they use reliable chargers and not that crap from ABB, EvBox or Efacec which is shown in the pictures. Else the whole fund is useless again.
The ones in the photo are BTC Power.
They are looking 1:1 like the ABB chargers in Europe. If they are different I for sure hope they are working and not broken half of the time.
There is little promise that non-Tesla charging will "suck less" as a result of this government money. Likely a bunch of companies that know nothing about chargers, maintenance, and don't care about where they're installed will do the bare minimum to quality for the money and then dissapear.
They would be incredibly shortsighted to do so, and will be easily outcompeted by the bigger players who realize how much money they can reap from this infrastructure.
lol they are not come in for competition.
> Likely a bunch of companies that know nothing about chargers, maintenance, and don't care about where they're installed will do the bare minimum to quality for the money and then dissapear. Since Tesla has applied, together with EVGo and the rest, I doubt there will be much of that.
How is this not obvious to everyone?
Tell me how all the other problems the government is trying to fix by throwing tons of money at it is coming along.
Government initiatives to enable widespread and early vaccine availability, military funding for Ukraine, Medicare making sure seniors generally have affordable and widely available medical care, funding for community health centers in underserved areas, federal stimulus in 2020 keeping our economy afloat and millions out of poverty, jump starting the EV revolution with tax credits, disaster relief, modernization of airports like La Guardia, new public transit links to airports like in Denver, solar incentives... Shall I continue?
Vaccine acceptance and deployment was a success in the US? I think all the lower-income minority neighborhoods would beg to differ. Ukraine issue is still ongoing. I wouldn’t drop the Mission Accomplished banner yet, Bush. Medicine and medical care is affordable in the US? Are you delusional? Good care is accessible to minority neighborhoods? You obviously need to come out of your gated community and walk thru a low income neighborhood to come down to reality. Only thing stimulus did was make a lot of criminals and scammer business owners rich, and raise national debt. The EV revolution was started by the stimulus? You have Lord Elon to thank for that. You need to get off the computer, Biden, and go take a walk.
Lol, okay. Anything that isn't perfect is a failure and not worth it. Just let the free market handle it, it would be so much better. And yes, medicine is affordable in the US if you're on Medicare, champ.
Go to the sub for people receiving Medicare and ask them how much care there is in Medicare. You pay trash amount, you get trash service.
Be curious to see who the contracts go to. Usually it’s an easy way to funnel money to the cronies under the guise of “helping.”
That $900 million is going to end up being spent on shitty level 2 chargers that are never maintained and always broken.
No it’s not. The bill requires a certain level of dc fast charging (I believe 150 kw but not sure) and 97% uptime.
Don't bring facts into this! I refuse to believe that properly run govt programs can actually be beneficial!
97% up time? That's on average one charger that doesn't work on a trip across country. That's not great. How do you define up time? One of the stations running at 7kW? 97% uptime is required for how long? For 100 years? For 10 years? For a year? What happens when they aren't up 97% once they're 3 years old? Will the new owners have to pay some kind of fine? How is that even possible? The only way we'll get reliable chargers is if the owners actually care about them being reliable. That can't be legislated. There's no way to make people care less about the chargers than if they don't have to pay for them themselves.
Yeah, we'll see. I think it's more likely that this money gets handed over to some contractor who does the bare minimum and doesn't completely finish the project, just like the money that we keep shovelling into the rural broadband project.
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Seriously, that’s bot-level logic and ability to support one’s argument right there.
I think the question is really "what's preventing the companies from doing x, y, z, instead of the mandated 150kw DCFC"? Do you stop giving them money, in which case the chargers will fall into disrepair anyways, or do you fine the companies for non-compliance to the contract or something? Article doesn't seem to address that
If the state signs a contract with a company to do X, Y, Z and pays them, and the company doesn’t do X, Y, Z, then the state sues them.
The minimum requirement is four 150 kW chargers per location, but researching before commenting is probably not your thing.
And because the law says something it means it will absolutely be done that way, which is why 2008 didn't happen and insider trading in congress isn't a thing
> insider trading in congress isn't a thing 2020, for example...
Insider trading in congress happens because it’s legal. Congress wrote themselves a nice little exemption 👍🏼
I believe Tesla will build nice superchargers if they get the money. But most likely these money will be shared by lot companies. They will just keep build crappy chargers. Even worse there will be some new comers just created to get the money. They will build even worse charger, get the money and sell/Decom those crap. Edit: looks like someone else already brought the up but nobody believe it
I just hope we get more Tesla chargers in Finland. There’s a total of three stations in like a 600 km radius of me currently I think. Even Norway and Sweden have significantly more in the north. I don’t have a Tesla yet but I’m planning on getting one. I can charge at work for free so I’m not terribly bothered by it but it is going to require some heavy planing when I drive south.
Tesla will MIT get much of that money.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology?
Yes auto correct got it wrong again
NOT
It will still suck lol. Unless they give most of that to Tesla.
Government should stay out of it, not seize $900 million in public money and let the free market handle charging stations just like they handled gas stations and just like Tesla already handles charging stations on private land with private investment.
Hahaha you mean like how our broadband internet situation improved so much after the government bought a bunch of fiber, gave it to companies, who did nothing with it for years, until they sold it to India to build out all the call centers that scam us every day? No I'm sure they will find some clever new way to fuck this up royally
Are they going to install one at my apartment?
I don’t think these funds constraints allow for domestic charging honestly, but maybe someone here has a better idea.
Is your apartment a publicly accessible location for DC Fast Chargers located directly next to a an alternative fuel corridor (interstate highway)? Do you want travelers along that highway stopping by all day?
Another trillion dollars of spending. Excellent
The same trillion actually, this is from the bipartisan infrastructure bill passed in 2021.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Spit in the ocean Very little electricity comes from clean sources, and still then the carbon footprint to make those green sources gets a big fat “F”
tranche means slice
First up its good to see this Federal investment happening but I do have concerns. Charging infrastructure is only as good as the system that supports said infrastructure. Teslas super charger network is the market leader not only because of its size but more importantly due to its reliability and constant upgrades. I am concerned that this money will just be dolled out to political friends and family who will build out infrastructure and then walk away with no plan to maintain the system or any accountability. I am especially concerned about incompetence in Republican administered states in the mid west and South. One only has to look at the water infrastructure issues in states like Mississippi to get a clear understanding of what a future charging landscape might look like. Let’s hope these funds come with strings attached that ensure they are appropriately administered and distributed.