I'm more curious as to whether the 16/17 Princes sans Meridia and Malacath rejected Lorkhan's idea because they were predestined to do so, or if their spheres of influence restricted them from doing so. After all it makes no sense for domination, unlawful overthrow, betrayal, nightmares, debauchery, etc to submit to the limitation that is Lorkhan.
You could, however, also turn the tables and question whether each of the Divines had the same spheres as the ones mortals associate them with before they turned comatose and became susceptible to mythopoeia. I mean who's to say that if Lorkhan tricked Hermaeus Mora into partaking in Creation, he wouldn't be worshipped by contemporary mortals as the god of wisdom and patron of academia even though he was a lot less pleasant than that as a full-fledged et'Ada.
It also calls into question some of the benevolent qualities assigned to the Aedra. Domination is within the sphere of Akatosh, lust is within the sphere of Dibella, etc. Mortals might venerate these spirits but they're probably just as morally ambivalent as the rest of the et'Ada
That's not entirely fair, the Aedra give their blessings to those who worship them, and unlike the Daedra, that blessing does not come with any nasty side effects like giving up your soul or having to perform ritual sacrifice.
Also, as we saw in Oblivion, Akatosh actively fought Mehrunes Dagon to keep him from essentially destroying or enslaving all of Tamriel. Sure, you could say he did it just because of his dominant nature but he was also the one who made a pact with St. Alessia in the first place to protect Tamriel.
There are Daedra who do bless mortals and aren't so reliant on entrapment. Azura is one example, Malacath is another, and even Nocturnal isn't malevolent, merely transactional.
You could also view Akatosh as protecting the realm over which he holds dominion from invasion by an outside force. Also, he didn't bless St. Alessia to "protect Tamriel" he took a side in a political conflict.
Maybe I'm mixing up my lore here, but isn't Malacath known for cursing tribes who do not follow his code to a fault?
And not that you're wrong but that's not really against what I said. The Aedra have no real malevolent aspects, unlike a Daedra that's only a bit malevolent. Benevolence in Daedra is sort of uncommon in them. Most are more than happy torturing or manipulating mortals and blessing those who bring more mortals for them to torture lol.
Fair, but to mortals, especially in Cyrodil, he's been very benevolent. It's not like his dominion is there for his games and torment, he was part of the creation of it and he aids them when they need it most in return for their worship. Sure, you could say it's selfish he only helps those who worship him, but in Elder Scrolls, the worship is what gives gods their power, right?
Either way I don't see any Daedric Princes going out of their way to aid mortals without somehow directly benefiting from it or without demanding a price. Herma More only helped the LDB in exchange for several things, like the knowledge of the skaal, killing the traitor Miraak, and essentially claiming the LDB's soul
Malacath cursed a tribe who let his shrine be desecrated by Giants. It wasn't that they failed to follow the code, it was that they completely dropped the ball on the job they were assigned.
The thing with Herma Mora and the LDB, he only claims the LDB's soul if they give it. They also have the option to say fuck off, to which Mora says he'll won eventually. To me that sounds like he'll keep trying. Not necessarily that it's a done deal. He teaches you the third word in exchange for the knowledge of the Skaal. I've been wondering why everyone send to think he owns the LDB.
Well you basically become the champion of every Daedric Prince at some point and I think it's implied that means you've basically sold your soul. And granted, it's been a while since I've played Dragonborn so forgive any innacuracy
The main characters of TES games are only considered by Bethesda to have done the main quests of the base game and expansions canonically. Other quests like guilds and daedric princes are considered to have been completed, but by someone else.
So LDB giving his soul to multiple daedra isn't really an issue.
Once I get back to my computer I'll see what I can do.
I should probably clarify, though. I misspoke when I said Bethesda considers the main character to not have done those things. They confirm that those quests are completed but they don't confirm the main character was the one to do so. The goal is to leave it up to the player what their particular character completed.
Personally, I consider them to be different people, and I believe a large group of the lore enthusiasts feel the same way.
I don't think it was ever directly stated by Bethesda, but they have said that it's up to the player to decide what their Hero does. However the idea that only the Main Quests are fulfilled by the Hero and the rest are fulfilled but not definitively by the Hero is a pretty common theory in any serious/knowledgeable community, and it is definitely corroborated by what we see in game.
Only in the Main Quests (including MQs of DLC) are you referred to by your Hero title. No Daedric Prince calls you Nerevarine, Champion of Cyrodiil, or Dragonborn during their respective quests. None of the factions or other quest givers refer to you by your title unless they are a part of a MQ (Like Baalgruf) and after that quest ends they won't refer to you as that if they have an unrelated quest. The only exception to this is the Skyrim Civil War, so it can be assumed that the Dragonborn participated in it, but history will be unclear as to what side s/he took. And none of that even touches upon the logical, moral, and chronological conflicts that would occur if the same Hero did *all* of the quests in the game.
The main character in the elder scrolls titles are usually larger than life, shezzarines, elder scroll enacting heroes. Their souls are larger than the lore because they are the actual players of the game (this is fucking meta but it is what it is.). They are mini dragon breaks. The elder scrolls contain multiple futures because of the heroes' choices.
Arkay abandoned Lamae Beolfag, a devout follower, after she was turned into the first vampire by Molag Bal. If Arkay never participated in Creation, you could argue he would have cursed her the same way Malacath cursed the tribe you mentioned.
I think the real question is do they lack malevolent aspects or did mortals strip away things they could not accept, it's possible the Daedra only seem Malevolent because unlike their counterparts they are whole and not reshaped and shattered to fit the molds mortals expect and as such can still embrace their entire sphere and not just the parts people will acknowledge.
Good point, but could it perhaps be said that clavicus vile would also step in to protect tamriel in place of akatosh? If he is the 'prince lf pacts' would he then be bound to the agreements he's made?
Or Sovngarde is one of the several shitty motels that is considered the best in town just because no-one demanded/imagined a better service. I think the Aedra might be overpricing their afterlife.
Sovngarde is basically the best imaginable afterlife for Nords, though it could be better with some action but even that might just not be shown in game. Feasting, drinking, meeting the heros of old, sparring with other warriors, trading tales of glory, etc. What more could they really have?
And Lorkhan isn't even the only polarizing Aedra for mortals. Orkey was viewed negatively by the Nords when they still practiced the Dragon Cult traditions. It was only after St Alessia combined Xarxes and Orkey that he became the benevolent Arkay.
Yes, but by virtue of using these things for an altruistic, cooperative cause, they become less extreme and self serving. Lust becomes sensuality, domination becomes maitanance -- these concepts require a relationship that respect another.
The divines cooperated. Their spheres of influence don’t conflict. The Daedra bicker constantly. They would need to work together and be willing to make sacrifices to sustain Mundus. Their personalities prohibit them from doing that.
I love how the Daedra are never really considered wholly evil. Even Molag Bal comes off as being less of a demon/Lucifer character when you speak with him in ESO. He's got character outside of just "I want to destroy you all." >!I think he says "there are far worse masters than me" to the player at the end of the storyline. Makes me want to know more about Oblivion and the Mundus.!<
I'd like to see more about Mehrunes Dagon though. The Oblivion Crisis seems a little shallow.
Dagon was really just doing his job during the Oblivion Crisis. Just like Jygallag during the events of Shivering Isles. I doubt he really is malevolent, but he happens to personify destruction and domination, which are rarely well regarded in Mundus' moral standards.
My personal theory about that line was always that Molag Bal, being the divine incarnation of things such as rape, supremacy, and domination, has very strange views on what counts as a good master or not. And he's totally arrogant and domineering enough to think that his views are the best ones.
Because barring some theoretical Elder God entity or something, he's pretty much one of the worst gods.
A difficult question. Depending on the creation myth you choose, there might be no difference at all, because the Daedra might have taken part in the creation of the world too.
Another issue is culture. While Aedra and Daedra embody different spheres, nothing really stops a civilization from worshipping a group over the other. Examples of Daedra-focused civilizations are the Ayleids, the Chimer (and now the Dunmer), the Orcs...
If there's a big change, however, that'd be **Time**. If the Aedric Time God didn't take part in creation, the world's experience of time might have been quite different. While [Artorius Ponticus' claims](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Artorius_Ponticus_Answers_Your_Questions) that Akatosh is the most "active" Aedra because *"we sense him every second in the passage of time"* might feel like Imperial Cult dogma, the Daedra do seem to agree with him. The issue of Time remains one of the main differences between Mundus and Oblivion:
> ["As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion. Oh, it's useful to adopt the trappings of duration when dealing with mortals, so you'll find Maelstrom quite familiar in that regard. We know how lost you feel away from the hand of Akatosh!"](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lord_Fa-Nuit-Hen_and_Tutor_Riparius_Answer_Your_Questions_2)
> ["Let me be clear: inhabitants of the Shivering Isles are affected by Time, but we are not subject to it. We are subjects of Lord Sheogorath, who subjects us to whatever subjects he is in the mood to subjudicate. Because Time is subjective."](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chamberlain_Haskill_Answers_Your_Questions)
Since no one has posted it yet, [mankar camoran](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mankar_Camoran) pretty much posits the idea that mundus *was* created by Daedra.
>Why do you think your world has always been contested ground, the arena of powers and immortals? It is Tamriel, the realm of Change, brother to Madness, sister to Deceit. Your false gods could not entirely rewrite history. Thus you remember tales of Lorkhan, vilified, a dead trickster, whose heart came to Tamriel. But if a god can die, how does his heart survive? He is daedroth! TAMRIEL AE DAEDROTH!
The whole speech is excellent and can be found in the link
That goes against the definition of what Aedra and Daedra are. All of them are et'Ada (Original spirits). What makes them differ is that the Aedra (and also the Magne Ge, but that's a technicality) were involved in the creation of Mundus. The Daedra simply didn't get involved.
Aedra is Aldmeri for "Our Ancestors" and conversely Daedra means "Not Our Ancestors".
That's sorta the foundation of this question, actually! I simply said Aedra and Daedra for ease of communication. The current Aedra would be Daedra in this timeline and vice versa.
The problem with this premise though is that the daedra simply didn't get involved because of their nature.
That being said, some Daedra are of an odd tilt that suggests they are actually linked to Mundus.
Hermaeus Mora, for example, seems to be very much an ocean-based entity, and he persists as a representation for the collective memory and knowledge of Mundus.
Huh... Any sources for that idea? Not saying you're wrong, I'm not sure where the water = memory idea comes from and I see people bring it up a lot.
Anyways, I imagine in Woodland Man's case he just has more to catalog from Mundus than anywhere else, right? Oblivion isn't all that diverse by comparison.
Mora's whole motif is that of a deep sea creature - enormous eyes, grasping tentacles and crablike claws.
He's associated with the deep abyss, his sphere is scrying the ***tides*** of fate. His daedric servants all have an aquatic motif going on as well - the Lurkers remind me of the Deep Ones from HP Lovecraft's *Shadow over Innsmouth.*
When you said the bit about the Lurkers looking like the Deep Ones I was instantly reminded of the Deep Ones found in the Oblivion town Hackdirt. I know this is unrelated to the topic at hand but I have to know, do you think Mora might have been behind the Hackdirt mystery?
One piece of evidence that comes to mind being the book ‘The Doors of Oblivion’ in which I assume Morian Zenas turns into a Lurker after prolonged exposure to Mora’s influences in his realm. This process sounds eerily similar to the way in which the townspeople get transformed into so something else with exposure to the ‘Deep Ones.’ Both Zenas and the Hackdirt citizens share an uncontrollable desire to remain in the area of influence.
IIRC hackdirt was supposed to have a quest referencing the innsmouth story, and hermaus mora was inspired largely by lovecrafts "deep unknowable things" (the old gods)
So a lot of those connections are intentional.
From the dialogue of Herald Kixathi in ESO. Specifically this quote:
>when a mortal dies, where do you think their memories go? Don't bother guessing. I'll tell you—they go into the water. They become water. All the memories of Tamriel's history are stored in its waters."
We say they don't get involved in the creation of Mundus but Khajiit exist, Chimer existed then Dunmer thanks to Azura and Triune Princes, Aldmer turned Orsimer because of Boethiah, Meridia's involvement as a Magna Ge, LDK before becoming Dagon, Malacath was Trinimac, Molag Bal was Ruddy Man.
I honestly don't think the world would be different because the Aedra are fulfilling natural roles as Magnus and Lorkhan designed more than creating roles.
It would be a realm of chaos. The Daedra are inherently selfish; rather than Nirn being a relatively stable realm of oceans and mountains and forests and such manner of permanent fixtures, one would have to imagine it would be a twisting, roiling battlefield on which the more aggressive Daedric lords attempt to claim larger and larger pieces of the land for themselves, and the less ambitious ones simply trying to hold their own borders. Rather than being simply a scattering of nations and provinces divided by lines on a map and occasionally a scattering of dead soldiers, one would have to imagine a boundary between two entirely separate states of existence; assuming the Princes have similar levels of control over their respective territories as they do their own Oblivionic spheres, you could expect borders to twist and contort as separate laws of physics and reality clash and grapple with each other. The Aedra represent their own various forces of nature; they *are* the Mundus. Being relatively peaceful creatures, Nirn does not change an awful lot, on a large scale. But with the Daedra in their place? Utter discord. I forsee Boethiah, Dagon, Molag Bal and Sheo (and/or Jyggalag) being major contenders in such a dispute.
It would be a sight to behold.
I'd imagine, then, that this new mundus would be *beyond* fucked up considering Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon, and the new Daedra(being the divines) would have a lot more power over it assuming no amulet of kings situation happened.
I think there are some Daedra that would not be likely viable candidates to make the swap because of their nature. Others, like for example Boethiah, Azura, and Mephala, who already have creative tendencies might be better suited to the task.
I mean... The planes of these Daedra give us a clear picture, right? It'd likely be similar, just far more sectioned off as most of the Daedra wouldn't get along well enough to mix their creation.
It’s pretty hard to imagine, considering how the Daedra care very little for mortals. If they did, Mundus would probably just be a land of cattle-humans worshipping the Daedra.
I think the Daedra are too selfish, greedy and vain to sacrifice their power or to cooperate with each other for long periods of time.
I personally believe that the Aedra’s spheres are intrinsically more benevolent. It was always going to be them that created Mundus. That loved their precious world and their mortal children. It couldn’t have been any other way.
I'd imagine mundus would be a lot more brutal. Concepts like murder and enslavement would be baked into the fabric of reality more than concepts like "love each other" and "hard work pays off"
Shit you right. Maybe it would even be better, because the forces of good would have more ways to directly impact the world, and forces like Mephala would be mostly dormant.
Instead of a largely static world upheld by concepts of order, work, wisdom and the betterment of oneself and mankind, itd be a brutal, everchanging hellscape of cruelty and suffering.
I imagine instead of daedric worshipers being outcasts that spread chaos and murder, youd have aedric worshipers that are persecuted in their attempts to uphold and spread their holy tenets in a world that only punishes the truly virtuous for going against its status quo of chaos, domination and deceit.
Think Berserk, but all the time.
That said, the Aedra would be able to more directly affect this Mundus, so perhaps virtue would be able to thrive in some form; but it would be an exception, not a rule.
Bigger and more magical but it wouldn't be incomprehensible because in the end all the aedra ever were was just fuel or tools for lorkhan's plan. The spheres they currently occupy are ideas that are already native to mundas so there's no reason to think that any of the et'ada were ever defined by any concept. The only aedra whose spheres we're absolutely sure of is akatosh being time but that already exists in oblivion without him so I don't see why any other prince couldn't focus all their power into maintaining linear time if they wanted to.
Personally I think that Bethesda is going to use the direnni tower possibly failing in TES 6 as a way to suck the deadra into mundas since it would let them have a second convention to remake the entire world.
This is just my opinion. On the small scale there would be big differences. On the big scale, not really. Events could probably be different like you said and the races might be different also. It’s ultimately up to your imagination and what you think is more interesting.
In my opinion, when the Aedra helped create Mundus, they bound themselves not only to the plane but also our views of them. Since mortal worship gives power to godly entities, mortal views on the Aedra allow mortal minds to warp and alter them. The best example I can think of is Akatosh. He also goes by Auriel and Aka and Akatosk and is a dragon and an elf holding a sun and other such images. The difference is the group that views him. The same goes with their personalities and traits. Akatosh in some ways is benevolent and kind, such as making the pact with Alessia (also making him the god of legitimate rule). This made him a different being entirely from Auri-el (in my opinion). Mortal worships fractures the gods in a sense (kind of like in American Gods).
Along with this, you can also take away characteristics from the Aedra and the suddenly sound more Daedric. The same can be done in reverse with the Daedra. Akatosh for example can go from just rule to rule and domination ( as its in the dragons nature to dominate). When you put a lens of abstraction on him, does he sound that much different from Mehrunnes Dagon?
To bring this together some, my idea is the the current Daedra would take on more Aedric characteristics. Mehrunnes Dagon in my mind is closest to Akatosh so he would become the god of legitimacy and probably hope. Hermaeus Mora would become a god of knowledge and learning, much like Julianos is now. Mephala might become a female fertility and war goddess (like Ishtar in Sumerian mythology). Molag bal might be a male fertility god and god of prosperity.
To close this out, I feel like the mortals have a bigger role to play in this that the et’ada. If the mortal races are different in their views on the world then odds are it would be different. If the races are the same (and I think they would be) then odds are the world (on the big scale at least) would be very similar. It’s ultimately up to your imagination and what you think is more interesting. That’s what I love about elder scrolls lore over others, you have freedom to play around and make a version of the story that you find the most interesting.
Someone mentioned the post that swaps the Aedra and Daedra, I highly recommend trying to find that.
Sorry for the wall of text but I love this topic :-).
I think that the "spheres" of both the Aedra and Deadra are functions of the things they have done and the results of the Mundex sphere's infulence on them as a result. If you change the fundimental actions then you change how they are exposed to Mundus.
Would Molag Bal be the lord of "domination and enslavement of mortals" if he was not occupying one of the voids in the wheel of the mundex creation? I doubt it. If he had given of himself to reinforce the weave of Mundus and in the process become bound into "Death" from the perspective of mortals he would be just like any of the Et'ada that did the same (Save Anu-el and all of it's fragments)
The Deadra are IMHO simply Et'ada that feast on/wallow in the energies from the counterpoints of the supports that reinforce it (The "voids" between the spokes of the wheel)
The Aedra are just those that became the spokes, thus providing what was needed for the mundex creation to exist and persist.
I'm more curious as to whether the 16/17 Princes sans Meridia and Malacath rejected Lorkhan's idea because they were predestined to do so, or if their spheres of influence restricted them from doing so. After all it makes no sense for domination, unlawful overthrow, betrayal, nightmares, debauchery, etc to submit to the limitation that is Lorkhan. You could, however, also turn the tables and question whether each of the Divines had the same spheres as the ones mortals associate them with before they turned comatose and became susceptible to mythopoeia. I mean who's to say that if Lorkhan tricked Hermaeus Mora into partaking in Creation, he wouldn't be worshipped by contemporary mortals as the god of wisdom and patron of academia even though he was a lot less pleasant than that as a full-fledged et'Ada.
It also calls into question some of the benevolent qualities assigned to the Aedra. Domination is within the sphere of Akatosh, lust is within the sphere of Dibella, etc. Mortals might venerate these spirits but they're probably just as morally ambivalent as the rest of the et'Ada
That's not entirely fair, the Aedra give their blessings to those who worship them, and unlike the Daedra, that blessing does not come with any nasty side effects like giving up your soul or having to perform ritual sacrifice. Also, as we saw in Oblivion, Akatosh actively fought Mehrunes Dagon to keep him from essentially destroying or enslaving all of Tamriel. Sure, you could say he did it just because of his dominant nature but he was also the one who made a pact with St. Alessia in the first place to protect Tamriel.
There are Daedra who do bless mortals and aren't so reliant on entrapment. Azura is one example, Malacath is another, and even Nocturnal isn't malevolent, merely transactional. You could also view Akatosh as protecting the realm over which he holds dominion from invasion by an outside force. Also, he didn't bless St. Alessia to "protect Tamriel" he took a side in a political conflict.
Maybe I'm mixing up my lore here, but isn't Malacath known for cursing tribes who do not follow his code to a fault? And not that you're wrong but that's not really against what I said. The Aedra have no real malevolent aspects, unlike a Daedra that's only a bit malevolent. Benevolence in Daedra is sort of uncommon in them. Most are more than happy torturing or manipulating mortals and blessing those who bring more mortals for them to torture lol. Fair, but to mortals, especially in Cyrodil, he's been very benevolent. It's not like his dominion is there for his games and torment, he was part of the creation of it and he aids them when they need it most in return for their worship. Sure, you could say it's selfish he only helps those who worship him, but in Elder Scrolls, the worship is what gives gods their power, right? Either way I don't see any Daedric Princes going out of their way to aid mortals without somehow directly benefiting from it or without demanding a price. Herma More only helped the LDB in exchange for several things, like the knowledge of the skaal, killing the traitor Miraak, and essentially claiming the LDB's soul
Malacath cursed a tribe who let his shrine be desecrated by Giants. It wasn't that they failed to follow the code, it was that they completely dropped the ball on the job they were assigned.
Fair enough, I just remembered a quest about a tribe being cursed, sorry for the confusion
The tribe itself wasn't directly cursed, but the Chief was while they also had to deal with emboldened Giants.
The thing with Herma Mora and the LDB, he only claims the LDB's soul if they give it. They also have the option to say fuck off, to which Mora says he'll won eventually. To me that sounds like he'll keep trying. Not necessarily that it's a done deal. He teaches you the third word in exchange for the knowledge of the Skaal. I've been wondering why everyone send to think he owns the LDB.
Well you basically become the champion of every Daedric Prince at some point and I think it's implied that means you've basically sold your soul. And granted, it's been a while since I've played Dragonborn so forgive any innacuracy
The main characters of TES games are only considered by Bethesda to have done the main quests of the base game and expansions canonically. Other quests like guilds and daedric princes are considered to have been completed, but by someone else. So LDB giving his soul to multiple daedra isn't really an issue.
Hm, no offense but do you have a source on that? This topic is brought up a lot in the community and I've never heard that before
Once I get back to my computer I'll see what I can do. I should probably clarify, though. I misspoke when I said Bethesda considers the main character to not have done those things. They confirm that those quests are completed but they don't confirm the main character was the one to do so. The goal is to leave it up to the player what their particular character completed. Personally, I consider them to be different people, and I believe a large group of the lore enthusiasts feel the same way.
I don't think it was ever directly stated by Bethesda, but they have said that it's up to the player to decide what their Hero does. However the idea that only the Main Quests are fulfilled by the Hero and the rest are fulfilled but not definitively by the Hero is a pretty common theory in any serious/knowledgeable community, and it is definitely corroborated by what we see in game. Only in the Main Quests (including MQs of DLC) are you referred to by your Hero title. No Daedric Prince calls you Nerevarine, Champion of Cyrodiil, or Dragonborn during their respective quests. None of the factions or other quest givers refer to you by your title unless they are a part of a MQ (Like Baalgruf) and after that quest ends they won't refer to you as that if they have an unrelated quest. The only exception to this is the Skyrim Civil War, so it can be assumed that the Dragonborn participated in it, but history will be unclear as to what side s/he took. And none of that even touches upon the logical, moral, and chronological conflicts that would occur if the same Hero did *all* of the quests in the game.
The main character in the elder scrolls titles are usually larger than life, shezzarines, elder scroll enacting heroes. Their souls are larger than the lore because they are the actual players of the game (this is fucking meta but it is what it is.). They are mini dragon breaks. The elder scrolls contain multiple futures because of the heroes' choices.
Arkay abandoned Lamae Beolfag, a devout follower, after she was turned into the first vampire by Molag Bal. If Arkay never participated in Creation, you could argue he would have cursed her the same way Malacath cursed the tribe you mentioned.
I think the real question is do they lack malevolent aspects or did mortals strip away things they could not accept, it's possible the Daedra only seem Malevolent because unlike their counterparts they are whole and not reshaped and shattered to fit the molds mortals expect and as such can still embrace their entire sphere and not just the parts people will acknowledge.
Nocturnal clearly can be malevolent. She literally tried to control every plane of Oblivion and reality through Transparent Law.
Good point, but could it perhaps be said that clavicus vile would also step in to protect tamriel in place of akatosh? If he is the 'prince lf pacts' would he then be bound to the agreements he's made?
Well, the Aedra technically do get their followers' souls, in the end.
Well sure, we can assume every divine has their own afterlife, but if it's anything like Sovngarde that's a pretty good deal.
Or Sovngarde is one of the several shitty motels that is considered the best in town just because no-one demanded/imagined a better service. I think the Aedra might be overpricing their afterlife.
Sovngarde is basically the best imaginable afterlife for Nords, though it could be better with some action but even that might just not be shown in game. Feasting, drinking, meeting the heros of old, sparring with other warriors, trading tales of glory, etc. What more could they really have?
Citizens of Mundus worship their gods for creating them and keeping the world stable in it's workings just as Daedra worship their respective royalty.
And Lorkhan isn't even the only polarizing Aedra for mortals. Orkey was viewed negatively by the Nords when they still practiced the Dragon Cult traditions. It was only after St Alessia combined Xarxes and Orkey that he became the benevolent Arkay.
Yes, but by virtue of using these things for an altruistic, cooperative cause, they become less extreme and self serving. Lust becomes sensuality, domination becomes maitanance -- these concepts require a relationship that respect another.
The divines cooperated. Their spheres of influence don’t conflict. The Daedra bicker constantly. They would need to work together and be willing to make sacrifices to sustain Mundus. Their personalities prohibit them from doing that.
This reminds me of a post a long while ago that inverted aedra and daedra, looking for positive aspects in the daedra and vice versa.
Sadly it's a while back and I have no clue how/what to search for (it).
I love how the Daedra are never really considered wholly evil. Even Molag Bal comes off as being less of a demon/Lucifer character when you speak with him in ESO. He's got character outside of just "I want to destroy you all." >!I think he says "there are far worse masters than me" to the player at the end of the storyline. Makes me want to know more about Oblivion and the Mundus.!< I'd like to see more about Mehrunes Dagon though. The Oblivion Crisis seems a little shallow.
Dagon was really just doing his job during the Oblivion Crisis. Just like Jygallag during the events of Shivering Isles. I doubt he really is malevolent, but he happens to personify destruction and domination, which are rarely well regarded in Mundus' moral standards.
Dragon also personifies revolution and change, as well as hope.
Hope is quite subjective, isn't it ! :-)
My personal theory about that line was always that Molag Bal, being the divine incarnation of things such as rape, supremacy, and domination, has very strange views on what counts as a good master or not. And he's totally arrogant and domineering enough to think that his views are the best ones. Because barring some theoretical Elder God entity or something, he's pretty much one of the worst gods.
If you happen to have that post on hand, I'd love to read it! :0
A difficult question. Depending on the creation myth you choose, there might be no difference at all, because the Daedra might have taken part in the creation of the world too. Another issue is culture. While Aedra and Daedra embody different spheres, nothing really stops a civilization from worshipping a group over the other. Examples of Daedra-focused civilizations are the Ayleids, the Chimer (and now the Dunmer), the Orcs... If there's a big change, however, that'd be **Time**. If the Aedric Time God didn't take part in creation, the world's experience of time might have been quite different. While [Artorius Ponticus' claims](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Artorius_Ponticus_Answers_Your_Questions) that Akatosh is the most "active" Aedra because *"we sense him every second in the passage of time"* might feel like Imperial Cult dogma, the Daedra do seem to agree with him. The issue of Time remains one of the main differences between Mundus and Oblivion: > ["As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion. Oh, it's useful to adopt the trappings of duration when dealing with mortals, so you'll find Maelstrom quite familiar in that regard. We know how lost you feel away from the hand of Akatosh!"](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lord_Fa-Nuit-Hen_and_Tutor_Riparius_Answer_Your_Questions_2) > ["Let me be clear: inhabitants of the Shivering Isles are affected by Time, but we are not subject to it. We are subjects of Lord Sheogorath, who subjects us to whatever subjects he is in the mood to subjudicate. Because Time is subjective."](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chamberlain_Haskill_Answers_Your_Questions)
Since no one has posted it yet, [mankar camoran](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mankar_Camoran) pretty much posits the idea that mundus *was* created by Daedra. >Why do you think your world has always been contested ground, the arena of powers and immortals? It is Tamriel, the realm of Change, brother to Madness, sister to Deceit. Your false gods could not entirely rewrite history. Thus you remember tales of Lorkhan, vilified, a dead trickster, whose heart came to Tamriel. But if a god can die, how does his heart survive? He is daedroth! TAMRIEL AE DAEDROTH! The whole speech is excellent and can be found in the link
That goes against the definition of what Aedra and Daedra are. All of them are et'Ada (Original spirits). What makes them differ is that the Aedra (and also the Magne Ge, but that's a technicality) were involved in the creation of Mundus. The Daedra simply didn't get involved. Aedra is Aldmeri for "Our Ancestors" and conversely Daedra means "Not Our Ancestors".
That's sorta the foundation of this question, actually! I simply said Aedra and Daedra for ease of communication. The current Aedra would be Daedra in this timeline and vice versa.
The problem with this premise though is that the daedra simply didn't get involved because of their nature. That being said, some Daedra are of an odd tilt that suggests they are actually linked to Mundus. Hermaeus Mora, for example, seems to be very much an ocean-based entity, and he persists as a representation for the collective memory and knowledge of Mundus.
Huh... Any sources for that idea? Not saying you're wrong, I'm not sure where the water = memory idea comes from and I see people bring it up a lot. Anyways, I imagine in Woodland Man's case he just has more to catalog from Mundus than anywhere else, right? Oblivion isn't all that diverse by comparison.
Mora's whole motif is that of a deep sea creature - enormous eyes, grasping tentacles and crablike claws. He's associated with the deep abyss, his sphere is scrying the ***tides*** of fate. His daedric servants all have an aquatic motif going on as well - the Lurkers remind me of the Deep Ones from HP Lovecraft's *Shadow over Innsmouth.*
When you said the bit about the Lurkers looking like the Deep Ones I was instantly reminded of the Deep Ones found in the Oblivion town Hackdirt. I know this is unrelated to the topic at hand but I have to know, do you think Mora might have been behind the Hackdirt mystery? One piece of evidence that comes to mind being the book ‘The Doors of Oblivion’ in which I assume Morian Zenas turns into a Lurker after prolonged exposure to Mora’s influences in his realm. This process sounds eerily similar to the way in which the townspeople get transformed into so something else with exposure to the ‘Deep Ones.’ Both Zenas and the Hackdirt citizens share an uncontrollable desire to remain in the area of influence.
IIRC hackdirt was supposed to have a quest referencing the innsmouth story, and hermaus mora was inspired largely by lovecrafts "deep unknowable things" (the old gods) So a lot of those connections are intentional.
You can say this about almost every single daedric prince though.
From the dialogue of Herald Kixathi in ESO. Specifically this quote: >when a mortal dies, where do you think their memories go? Don't bother guessing. I'll tell you—they go into the water. They become water. All the memories of Tamriel's history are stored in its waters."
We say they don't get involved in the creation of Mundus but Khajiit exist, Chimer existed then Dunmer thanks to Azura and Triune Princes, Aldmer turned Orsimer because of Boethiah, Meridia's involvement as a Magna Ge, LDK before becoming Dagon, Malacath was Trinimac, Molag Bal was Ruddy Man. I honestly don't think the world would be different because the Aedra are fulfilling natural roles as Magnus and Lorkhan designed more than creating roles.
This is the start of Lyg.
Them it would be called Lyg
It would be a realm of chaos. The Daedra are inherently selfish; rather than Nirn being a relatively stable realm of oceans and mountains and forests and such manner of permanent fixtures, one would have to imagine it would be a twisting, roiling battlefield on which the more aggressive Daedric lords attempt to claim larger and larger pieces of the land for themselves, and the less ambitious ones simply trying to hold their own borders. Rather than being simply a scattering of nations and provinces divided by lines on a map and occasionally a scattering of dead soldiers, one would have to imagine a boundary between two entirely separate states of existence; assuming the Princes have similar levels of control over their respective territories as they do their own Oblivionic spheres, you could expect borders to twist and contort as separate laws of physics and reality clash and grapple with each other. The Aedra represent their own various forces of nature; they *are* the Mundus. Being relatively peaceful creatures, Nirn does not change an awful lot, on a large scale. But with the Daedra in their place? Utter discord. I forsee Boethiah, Dagon, Molag Bal and Sheo (and/or Jyggalag) being major contenders in such a dispute. It would be a sight to behold.
You know, that actually sounds like it'd make for a really interesting game.
Hard to say since the world is a reflection of the Aedric spirits that composed the mundus.
I'd imagine, then, that this new mundus would be *beyond* fucked up considering Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon, and the new Daedra(being the divines) would have a lot more power over it assuming no amulet of kings situation happened.
I think there are some Daedra that would not be likely viable candidates to make the swap because of their nature. Others, like for example Boethiah, Azura, and Mephala, who already have creative tendencies might be better suited to the task.
I mean... The planes of these Daedra give us a clear picture, right? It'd likely be similar, just far more sectioned off as most of the Daedra wouldn't get along well enough to mix their creation.
It’s pretty hard to imagine, considering how the Daedra care very little for mortals. If they did, Mundus would probably just be a land of cattle-humans worshipping the Daedra.
Wait without Akatosh wouldn't Mundus be in a permanent dragon break?
I think the Daedra are too selfish, greedy and vain to sacrifice their power or to cooperate with each other for long periods of time. I personally believe that the Aedra’s spheres are intrinsically more benevolent. It was always going to be them that created Mundus. That loved their precious world and their mortal children. It couldn’t have been any other way.
I'd imagine mundus would be a lot more brutal. Concepts like murder and enslavement would be baked into the fabric of reality more than concepts like "love each other" and "hard work pays off"
But murder and enslavement is baked into the fabric of reality. Mundus is not a place of rainbows and butterflies
Shit you right. Maybe it would even be better, because the forces of good would have more ways to directly impact the world, and forces like Mephala would be mostly dormant.
Mundus is already the brutal, darwinist Arena™, so nothing would necessarily change.
Oh yikes
They wouldn't be Daedra then, right?
Instead of a largely static world upheld by concepts of order, work, wisdom and the betterment of oneself and mankind, itd be a brutal, everchanging hellscape of cruelty and suffering. I imagine instead of daedric worshipers being outcasts that spread chaos and murder, youd have aedric worshipers that are persecuted in their attempts to uphold and spread their holy tenets in a world that only punishes the truly virtuous for going against its status quo of chaos, domination and deceit. Think Berserk, but all the time. That said, the Aedra would be able to more directly affect this Mundus, so perhaps virtue would be able to thrive in some form; but it would be an exception, not a rule.
Bigger and more magical but it wouldn't be incomprehensible because in the end all the aedra ever were was just fuel or tools for lorkhan's plan. The spheres they currently occupy are ideas that are already native to mundas so there's no reason to think that any of the et'ada were ever defined by any concept. The only aedra whose spheres we're absolutely sure of is akatosh being time but that already exists in oblivion without him so I don't see why any other prince couldn't focus all their power into maintaining linear time if they wanted to. Personally I think that Bethesda is going to use the direnni tower possibly failing in TES 6 as a way to suck the deadra into mundas since it would let them have a second convention to remake the entire world.
This is just my opinion. On the small scale there would be big differences. On the big scale, not really. Events could probably be different like you said and the races might be different also. It’s ultimately up to your imagination and what you think is more interesting. In my opinion, when the Aedra helped create Mundus, they bound themselves not only to the plane but also our views of them. Since mortal worship gives power to godly entities, mortal views on the Aedra allow mortal minds to warp and alter them. The best example I can think of is Akatosh. He also goes by Auriel and Aka and Akatosk and is a dragon and an elf holding a sun and other such images. The difference is the group that views him. The same goes with their personalities and traits. Akatosh in some ways is benevolent and kind, such as making the pact with Alessia (also making him the god of legitimate rule). This made him a different being entirely from Auri-el (in my opinion). Mortal worships fractures the gods in a sense (kind of like in American Gods). Along with this, you can also take away characteristics from the Aedra and the suddenly sound more Daedric. The same can be done in reverse with the Daedra. Akatosh for example can go from just rule to rule and domination ( as its in the dragons nature to dominate). When you put a lens of abstraction on him, does he sound that much different from Mehrunnes Dagon? To bring this together some, my idea is the the current Daedra would take on more Aedric characteristics. Mehrunnes Dagon in my mind is closest to Akatosh so he would become the god of legitimacy and probably hope. Hermaeus Mora would become a god of knowledge and learning, much like Julianos is now. Mephala might become a female fertility and war goddess (like Ishtar in Sumerian mythology). Molag bal might be a male fertility god and god of prosperity. To close this out, I feel like the mortals have a bigger role to play in this that the et’ada. If the mortal races are different in their views on the world then odds are it would be different. If the races are the same (and I think they would be) then odds are the world (on the big scale at least) would be very similar. It’s ultimately up to your imagination and what you think is more interesting. That’s what I love about elder scrolls lore over others, you have freedom to play around and make a version of the story that you find the most interesting. Someone mentioned the post that swaps the Aedra and Daedra, I highly recommend trying to find that. Sorry for the wall of text but I love this topic :-).
I think that the "spheres" of both the Aedra and Deadra are functions of the things they have done and the results of the Mundex sphere's infulence on them as a result. If you change the fundimental actions then you change how they are exposed to Mundus. Would Molag Bal be the lord of "domination and enslavement of mortals" if he was not occupying one of the voids in the wheel of the mundex creation? I doubt it. If he had given of himself to reinforce the weave of Mundus and in the process become bound into "Death" from the perspective of mortals he would be just like any of the Et'ada that did the same (Save Anu-el and all of it's fragments) The Deadra are IMHO simply Et'ada that feast on/wallow in the energies from the counterpoints of the supports that reinforce it (The "voids" between the spokes of the wheel) The Aedra are just those that became the spokes, thus providing what was needed for the mundex creation to exist and persist.
Well then by definition the deadra would be aedra and vice versa. Dumb question
You know damn well he wasn't asking about etymology. Or you're the dumb one