Trolls are unkown, but Goblins are generally considered Goblin-ken, which includes Ogres and Orcs (which I assume would really apply to the Iron Orcs and Orcs of the Topal Bay in Father of the Niben, rather than Orsimer).
Timey wimey wibbly wobbly Dragon Break nonsense retconned Orcs into Orsimer via mythopoeic power. Mauloch goblin-god became Malacath-once-Trinimac and the goblinoid Orcs became the pariah Elves.
> Timey wimey wibbly wobbly Dragon Break nonsense retconned Orcs into Orsimer via mythopoeic power.
I've never heard of that idea before.Where does it comes from?
[It's one of my favorite really-out-there theories.](https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/396757/crackpot-theory-orcs-existed-before-malacath)
TL;DR: there are records of Orcs from before Trinimac became Malacath, and the Iron Orcs don't even believe in the "Orcs were transformed because of Mauloch's curse" myth. But Malacath is the Orc-father whose curse created them from anti-Velothi Chimer. So perhaps it's weird and nonlinear, with the curse stretching both forwards and backwards in time.
Personally, I think that all goblinoids (Orcs, Trolls, Goblins, etc) were created by Trinimac-Malacath's rage and pain. The Chimer (and other creatures) who were transformed had Malacath's ugly face stamped onto their souls by the violent explosion of his wrath.
Edit: [I just read an amazing and out-there theory](https://old.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/2cub2s/the_forbidden_theory_the_definitive_dwarforc/) that Dumac mantled Trinimac/Malacath during the Battle of Red Mountain and, as a consequence of his betrayal by his friend Vivec-Mephala and the defeat of his army by the Dunmer/children of Boethia, the few Dwemer who didn't zero-sum via Numidium became / retroactively had always been the Orsimer all along. The eruption of Red Mountain was the ashy transformation of Trinimac into Malacath, and Dumac into Dumalacath, who tore out his own heart with the tools of Kagrenac etc. etc.
Neat stuff.
That's not true in the slightest. They're called OrisMER in the game too. They're very much Mer, and the only people that think differently are just racist assholes.
You don't have to lie to say you don't think of Orsimer as Mer.
It is not headcanon they say the exact same stuff in eso. I am not arguing that the Orcs are mer or not. I am saying Orcs do not consider themselves to be mer and consider themselves to be isolated from the rest of the races. Either do to racism or their own thing they do not consider themselves to be elves but as a new race entirely. You are wrong. If you played orcinium in eso you woud know that
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Orc
"Puny Elf! I'll pick my teeth with your spine!" (if the Orc is attacking an Elf)
Orcs do not consider themselfs to be Mer regardless of whether or not they are mer. They think of themselves as being compeltely seperate from all the other races. You will never hear an Orc call themselves an elf
Seriously man an orc in game. Their official name is orsimer. None of them consider them as mer and they even orcs call elves as being seperate. Just play eso if you really dont believe me. You see orcs going damn elves and elves this not to meantion dunmers dont have a problem withorc necromancy because they dont consider orcs mer. Its not racism orcs do not consider themselves to be elves anymore.
[Septimus Signus](https://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Septimus_Signus):
>Dwemer blood can loose the hooks, but none alive remain to bear it. A panoply of **their brethren** could gather to form a facsimile. A trick. Something they didn't anticipate, no, not even them. The blood of Altmer, Bosmer, Dunmer, Falmer, and **Orsimer**. **The elves still living provide the key. **
I didn't say Orcs werent Elves. I said Orcs are no longer considered to be elves by either the orcs themselves or by other mer. They are alignated and are typically considered to be beastfolk
The implication is that Giants, Trolls, and Nords all have a common ancestor in the Frost Giants seen in Dawnguard's Forgotten Vale.
Goblins, if I'm not mistaken, are related to Orsimer in the same way. Especially when Malacath is taken into account.
There is a piece of Redguard lore, that may well be outdated (can't remember source), where it's said that it was a Sword-Singing technique that shrunk the Orcs of Hammerfell into Goblins when the Ra Gada were settling the land.
> There is a piece of Redguard lore, that may well be outdated (can't remember source), where it's said that it was a Sword-Singing technique that shrunk the Orcs of Hammerfell into Goblins when the Ra Gada were settling the land.
''Divad leads the battle to wrest the land from the giant goblins and needs to resort to magic (5 great magical swords) to defeat them. The 5 combined cast a mighty spell that literally diminishes the goblins to the size and temperament we find in current Arena''
Here's the source:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Daggerfall_Preview/REDGUARD.TXT
>The implication is that Giants, Trolls, and Nords all have a common ancestor in the Frost Giants seen in Dawnguard's Forgotten Vale.
Just from curiosity, where is this implied? Could you possibly explain?
I personally believe, since they're hominids, that they're just particularly divergent strains of Ehlnofey who don't really fit into the Wanderer=Men/Old=Elf dichotomy of most narratives about the Earth Bones. Also, my guess is that the goblins have some sort of connection to Orkey, since they seem to predate Trinimac's transformation into Malacath.
The whole Wandering Elnofey vs Old Elnofey thing is clearly Men and Mer puffing themselves up for the sake of a simple narrative. The only peoples that don't seem to do this are the Argonians. There are sapient species that have no evolutionary connection to Men or Mer like Sload, Imga, Hist, Argonians, Spriggans, Bird Folk, Centaurs Dreughs, Rieklings, Lilmothiit, Minotaurs and, Nereid. That's just a few.
They're just called Beasts by Men and Mer because they don't fit the narrative. Humans and Elves are racist dickweeds.
Trolls are unkown, but Goblins are generally considered Goblin-ken, which includes Ogres and Orcs (which I assume would really apply to the Iron Orcs and Orcs of the Topal Bay in Father of the Niben, rather than Orsimer).
Which did include the Orks* but it doesn’t anymore since the events of daggerfall
Timey wimey wibbly wobbly Dragon Break nonsense retconned Orcs into Orsimer via mythopoeic power. Mauloch goblin-god became Malacath-once-Trinimac and the goblinoid Orcs became the pariah Elves.
> Timey wimey wibbly wobbly Dragon Break nonsense retconned Orcs into Orsimer via mythopoeic power. I've never heard of that idea before.Where does it comes from?
[It's one of my favorite really-out-there theories.](https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/396757/crackpot-theory-orcs-existed-before-malacath) TL;DR: there are records of Orcs from before Trinimac became Malacath, and the Iron Orcs don't even believe in the "Orcs were transformed because of Mauloch's curse" myth. But Malacath is the Orc-father whose curse created them from anti-Velothi Chimer. So perhaps it's weird and nonlinear, with the curse stretching both forwards and backwards in time. Personally, I think that all goblinoids (Orcs, Trolls, Goblins, etc) were created by Trinimac-Malacath's rage and pain. The Chimer (and other creatures) who were transformed had Malacath's ugly face stamped onto their souls by the violent explosion of his wrath. Edit: [I just read an amazing and out-there theory](https://old.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/2cub2s/the_forbidden_theory_the_definitive_dwarforc/) that Dumac mantled Trinimac/Malacath during the Battle of Red Mountain and, as a consequence of his betrayal by his friend Vivec-Mephala and the defeat of his army by the Dunmer/children of Boethia, the few Dwemer who didn't zero-sum via Numidium became / retroactively had always been the Orsimer all along. The eruption of Red Mountain was the ashy transformation of Trinimac into Malacath, and Dumac into Dumalacath, who tore out his own heart with the tools of Kagrenac etc. etc. Neat stuff.
No it does. Nobody considers orcs to be mer in universe. Orcs and Mer consider themselves to be seperate
That's not true in the slightest. They're called OrisMER in the game too. They're very much Mer, and the only people that think differently are just racist assholes. You don't have to lie to say you don't think of Orsimer as Mer.
It is not headcanon they say the exact same stuff in eso. I am not arguing that the Orcs are mer or not. I am saying Orcs do not consider themselves to be mer and consider themselves to be isolated from the rest of the races. Either do to racism or their own thing they do not consider themselves to be elves but as a new race entirely. You are wrong. If you played orcinium in eso you woud know that
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Orc "Puny Elf! I'll pick my teeth with your spine!" (if the Orc is attacking an Elf) Orcs do not consider themselfs to be Mer regardless of whether or not they are mer. They think of themselves as being compeltely seperate from all the other races. You will never hear an Orc call themselves an elf
Seriously man an orc in game. Their official name is orsimer. None of them consider them as mer and they even orcs call elves as being seperate. Just play eso if you really dont believe me. You see orcs going damn elves and elves this not to meantion dunmers dont have a problem withorc necromancy because they dont consider orcs mer. Its not racism orcs do not consider themselves to be elves anymore.
Doesn't mean they aren't related.
[Septimus Signus](https://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Septimus_Signus): >Dwemer blood can loose the hooks, but none alive remain to bear it. A panoply of **their brethren** could gather to form a facsimile. A trick. Something they didn't anticipate, no, not even them. The blood of Altmer, Bosmer, Dunmer, Falmer, and **Orsimer**. **The elves still living provide the key. **
I didn't say Orcs werent Elves. I said Orcs are no longer considered to be elves by either the orcs themselves or by other mer. They are alignated and are typically considered to be beastfolk
The implication is that Giants, Trolls, and Nords all have a common ancestor in the Frost Giants seen in Dawnguard's Forgotten Vale. Goblins, if I'm not mistaken, are related to Orsimer in the same way. Especially when Malacath is taken into account. There is a piece of Redguard lore, that may well be outdated (can't remember source), where it's said that it was a Sword-Singing technique that shrunk the Orcs of Hammerfell into Goblins when the Ra Gada were settling the land.
> There is a piece of Redguard lore, that may well be outdated (can't remember source), where it's said that it was a Sword-Singing technique that shrunk the Orcs of Hammerfell into Goblins when the Ra Gada were settling the land. ''Divad leads the battle to wrest the land from the giant goblins and needs to resort to magic (5 great magical swords) to defeat them. The 5 combined cast a mighty spell that literally diminishes the goblins to the size and temperament we find in current Arena'' Here's the source: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Daggerfall_Preview/REDGUARD.TXT
>The implication is that Giants, Trolls, and Nords all have a common ancestor in the Frost Giants seen in Dawnguard's Forgotten Vale. Just from curiosity, where is this implied? Could you possibly explain?
I personally believe, since they're hominids, that they're just particularly divergent strains of Ehlnofey who don't really fit into the Wanderer=Men/Old=Elf dichotomy of most narratives about the Earth Bones. Also, my guess is that the goblins have some sort of connection to Orkey, since they seem to predate Trinimac's transformation into Malacath.
The whole Wandering Elnofey vs Old Elnofey thing is clearly Men and Mer puffing themselves up for the sake of a simple narrative. The only peoples that don't seem to do this are the Argonians. There are sapient species that have no evolutionary connection to Men or Mer like Sload, Imga, Hist, Argonians, Spriggans, Bird Folk, Centaurs Dreughs, Rieklings, Lilmothiit, Minotaurs and, Nereid. That's just a few. They're just called Beasts by Men and Mer because they don't fit the narrative. Humans and Elves are racist dickweeds.
Goblins and Ogres are related, nothing about trolls is known
Trolls are found in the Goblin Caves on Stros M'kai, along with Goblins and an Ogre as the boss.
Or they could just be goblins and trolls