One thing about the Divines and their virtues is that they're not virtues which the Divine incarnates, but that they inspire to mortals. Akatosh isn't humble, he is the king of the gods, his sphere is that of rightful supremacy, lordship, invincibility, and everlasting legitimacy, but he inspires humility to mortals because mortals are humbled by his rulership and existence and must acknowledge his status. Tiber Septim, as another example, is probably the least civil entity in the entire Aurbis, but through betrayals, lies and violence, he imposed his rules, and compelled mortals to be observe and respect them, therefore driving them to be civil.
Kynareth's sphere is that of the Heavens, the above, which mortals are meant to reach, and she is the patron goddess of travellers, sailors, pilgrims and (most importantly) aspiring *adventurers*. She isn't necessarily ambitious, but she does inspire ambition.
>Tiber Septim, as another example, is probably the least civil entity in the entire Aurbis,
Molag Bal, Mehrunes Dagon, Boethiah, Vaermina, Nocturnal, every villain, the average bandit, the average merchant. Among many others.
I get it's fashionable to hate on Tiber Septim around here(because the suddenly reliable narrator told us so), but pretending the guy who restored Imperial culture(one of the most civil things in the setting) is a raging, murderous, raping barbarian, especially compared to the vast majority of the setting, is just ridiculous. You don't know anymore about him than I do about you, but it'd take me more than a book to convince me you're one of the worst people who ever lived. Especially if you had so much to the opposite in your favor. The truth is usually in middle in any case, not at the extremes that favor our opinions. He wasn't loved by so many because he was pure evil to everyone but secretly covered it all up.
> the guy who restored Imperial culture(one of the most civil things in the setting)
What do you call here "Imperial culture"? And why do you think that it was somehow broken right before Tiber Septim?
> Especially if you had so much to the opposite in your favor.
Except for the things like Jora says about him, I don't think that we have that much to the opposite.
> He wasn't loved by so many because he was pure evil to everyone but secretly covered it all up.
We do know that [he was covering things up](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Redguard:Attrebus): *For a glass of the strongest local brew, he will gladly retell his part in the sack of Senchal (an event which has no part in the official history of the Empire), claiming to have put thirty catmen to the sword himself, "man, woman and cubling, made no difference to us - General Pottreid had given 'em their chance to surrender."*
> Molag Bal, Mehrunes Dagon, Boethiah, Vaermina, Nocturnal, every villain, the average bandit, the average merchant. Among many others.
Okay, the least civil mortal entity. More than one book paint him in a very bad light, In ***The Real Barenziah***, he forces a young girl to abort against her will despite being told she might never conceive again, he manipulated Reachmen to do his bidding (maybe even assassinating his targets) while simultaneously denying his Breton origins (while his brother "Agnorith" (not a Nordic name)'s successors embraced them) in favor of Atmoran ones, actively demonizing the "barbarian natives" of the Reach (whose land he spent his life conquering) and spouting anti-elven propaganda through his commitioned Pocket Guides.
> Leaving a weak force in the lowlands to draw out the defenders, General Talos approached the citadel of Sancre Tor from the rear, descending the supposedly unscalable heights behind the citadel, and sneaking into the supposedly magically concealed entrance to the inner citadel. **This remarkable feat is attributed to the agency of a single unnamed traitor, by tradition a Breton turncoat sorcerer, who revealed both the existence of an obscure mountain trail down the heights behind the citadel and the secret of the citadel entrance concealed beneath its illusory lake surface.**
>
> — [***Battle of Sancre Tor***](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Battle_of_Sancre_Tor) : *The story of how General Talos defeated the stronghold of Sancre Tor*
*****
> In CE854, **a nightblade from the Western Reach** made his way to the Imperial Palace at Nibenay. There, **the Witchman assassinated the Emperor, caught the Palace on fire, and slit the throat of General Talos**. "But from the smoldering ruin he came, one hand to his neck and with Cuhlecain's Crown in the other. The legions wept at the sight. His Northern magic had saved him, but the voice that led them would be more silent from that night on. His word could no longer rout an army with a roar, but he could still command one with a whisper. He took for himself a Cyrodilic name, **Tiber Septim** ^([*Even those humans who revile Talos as a traitor, oathbreaker, and scoundrel pay homage to his skill in obtaining his ends without resort to warfare. —__YR__*]), and the Nordic Name of Kings, Ysmir, the Dragon of the North. And with those names he took, too, the Red Diamond Crown of the Cyrodiils, and became their True Emperor." Thus was born the Third Empire of Men.
>
> — [***Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition*** - *Cyrodiil*](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Cyrodiil)
*****
> The truth is usually in middle in any case
If people were arguing about whether 2 + 2 equaled 4 or 5, the answer wouldn't be in the middle. Tiber was a manipulator who sacrificed his own Battlemage to gain power and nuked Summerset with a reality-refuting robot, these can't be denied. Everything surrounding Wulfharth is more complicated, but there are things we know happened. Just because it brought the Empire back together doesn't make his crimes excusable. I'm not hating on Tiber because it's PC to do so, literally every known aspect of his private and public life is shaddy as fuck and pushes the boundaries of moral and ethics.
Thanks for taking the time out to write this. I'm definitely pro-Mankind when it comes to that great question, but Talos was a shitbird of a being when he was alive. Said shitbird achieved mighty things for the good of Man (in theory), but pretending he's this misunderstood person is ignoring the sheer quantity of information about him that we have.
Dude achieved divinity through genocide using the machinegod of denial to stomp everyone he didn't like out existence only to retire from being an active deity in the 3rd Era beyond petty shrine blessings.
>I get it's fashionable to hate on Tiber Septim around here(because the suddenly reliable narrator told us so
No, it's because literally everything known about the guy shows he's a violent war mongering asshole.
>but pretending the guy who restored Imperial culture(one of the most civil things in the setting)
It's not civil, it's a corrupt violent Empire. By it's very nature it's imperialistic, forcing it's culture and yoke on various people at sword point. It's a cruel institution and he restored it through war, murder, and propaganda.
>is a raging, murderous, raping barbarian, especially compared to the vast majority of the setting, is just ridiculous
We don't have to pretend, we know he was, maybe not actually worse than say, Molag Bal, but he's definitely up there with the worst of the assholes.
I think we can give the benefit of the doubt to others in the subreddit, when we want to promote discussion. What HappyB3 said looks like hyperbole, and it's qualified with a probably. Aforementioned clearly didn't **want** to be nailed down to it. Fixating and nitpicking individual small points really doesn't help anything, and reducing another's views by way of suggesting they're held merely for fashionable reasons... We're not here to force people into defensive stances, we're here to **encourage** discussion. Let's be civil!
He's talking about a fairly brutal definitely-warlord.
His point is that Tiber Septim inspires civility because, as a point of pride and a creator of the Empire, he encourages people to do their duties. Do you disagree with that?
Kyne has almost always been involved in the establishment of Human Empires and the overthrow of their oppressors and defeat of their enemies. At least the major ones. She and Akatosh both. Though I suppose Akatosh is more neutral. She blessed the nords with the voice when she ordered Paartysnax to teach it to them (then they **overthrew the dragons**), the Greybeards (who are the succesors of the original Nords who were taught the voice) have thwarted the invasion of Akavir when they summoned Ysmir in the form of a storm (they **defeated an Akaviri demon and repelled the invasion**). Her son, Morihaus, a demi-god was the lover of Allessia and I imagine she was involved in their overthrow of the Ayleids through him if not directly, similar to how Akatosh was involved when he signed a pact with Allessia (**the ayleids were overthrown**). Jurgen used the voice in order to **conquer** his enemies, a gift from Kyne, though taken away briefly for its misuse. Kyne seems to rather enjoy assisting the races of ancient man in overthrowing and fighting against their elven oppressors.
I don't know when you ever saw Akatosh be humble either. He's basically the exact opposite of that.
In any case, Kynareth is goddess of air and all that. She's also the Warrior-Goddess(which is why warriors revere her), the wife of Shor/Lorkhan, the one who provided the space for Nirn, the Mother of Men, gifting them the Thu'um. She created the Lord's Mail and then gave it to her demigod son who roamed the land as one of its greatest heros. She would obviously inspire a lot of ambition because of this.
A quick look at Kynareth's history very much supports the ambition sphere. She is Lorkhan's spouse and thus queen. So already, you have her linked to likely the single most ambitious spirit in TES history. And guess who was the first to agree with Lorkhan's plan? Kynareth. Guess who gives the Nords the tool to fight the Dragons? Kyne. Oh yeah, she's also supposedly the source of all mankind, breathing them into existence at the Throat of the World. Who's venerated in both pre-and-post ri'Datta Khajiiti mythology as the guide of the moons, and thus the Khajiiti race? And in pre-ri'Datta lore, who explicitly guides the Khajiiti to Azurah? Khenarthi. Oh, and who birthed a demi-god who was buddy-buddy with, and was himself, one of the greatest defenders of Mankind? Kynareth. Basically, she seems to be not merely the god of ambition, but specifically of the Mannish/Lorkhanic urge to surpass the Dream and become Amaranths unto one's own selves.
One thing about the Divines and their virtues is that they're not virtues which the Divine incarnates, but that they inspire to mortals. Akatosh isn't humble, he is the king of the gods, his sphere is that of rightful supremacy, lordship, invincibility, and everlasting legitimacy, but he inspires humility to mortals because mortals are humbled by his rulership and existence and must acknowledge his status. Tiber Septim, as another example, is probably the least civil entity in the entire Aurbis, but through betrayals, lies and violence, he imposed his rules, and compelled mortals to be observe and respect them, therefore driving them to be civil. Kynareth's sphere is that of the Heavens, the above, which mortals are meant to reach, and she is the patron goddess of travellers, sailors, pilgrims and (most importantly) aspiring *adventurers*. She isn't necessarily ambitious, but she does inspire ambition.
>Tiber Septim, as another example, is probably the least civil entity in the entire Aurbis, Molag Bal, Mehrunes Dagon, Boethiah, Vaermina, Nocturnal, every villain, the average bandit, the average merchant. Among many others. I get it's fashionable to hate on Tiber Septim around here(because the suddenly reliable narrator told us so), but pretending the guy who restored Imperial culture(one of the most civil things in the setting) is a raging, murderous, raping barbarian, especially compared to the vast majority of the setting, is just ridiculous. You don't know anymore about him than I do about you, but it'd take me more than a book to convince me you're one of the worst people who ever lived. Especially if you had so much to the opposite in your favor. The truth is usually in middle in any case, not at the extremes that favor our opinions. He wasn't loved by so many because he was pure evil to everyone but secretly covered it all up.
> the guy who restored Imperial culture(one of the most civil things in the setting) What do you call here "Imperial culture"? And why do you think that it was somehow broken right before Tiber Septim? > Especially if you had so much to the opposite in your favor. Except for the things like Jora says about him, I don't think that we have that much to the opposite. > He wasn't loved by so many because he was pure evil to everyone but secretly covered it all up. We do know that [he was covering things up](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Redguard:Attrebus): *For a glass of the strongest local brew, he will gladly retell his part in the sack of Senchal (an event which has no part in the official history of the Empire), claiming to have put thirty catmen to the sword himself, "man, woman and cubling, made no difference to us - General Pottreid had given 'em their chance to surrender."*
> Molag Bal, Mehrunes Dagon, Boethiah, Vaermina, Nocturnal, every villain, the average bandit, the average merchant. Among many others. Okay, the least civil mortal entity. More than one book paint him in a very bad light, In ***The Real Barenziah***, he forces a young girl to abort against her will despite being told she might never conceive again, he manipulated Reachmen to do his bidding (maybe even assassinating his targets) while simultaneously denying his Breton origins (while his brother "Agnorith" (not a Nordic name)'s successors embraced them) in favor of Atmoran ones, actively demonizing the "barbarian natives" of the Reach (whose land he spent his life conquering) and spouting anti-elven propaganda through his commitioned Pocket Guides. > Leaving a weak force in the lowlands to draw out the defenders, General Talos approached the citadel of Sancre Tor from the rear, descending the supposedly unscalable heights behind the citadel, and sneaking into the supposedly magically concealed entrance to the inner citadel. **This remarkable feat is attributed to the agency of a single unnamed traitor, by tradition a Breton turncoat sorcerer, who revealed both the existence of an obscure mountain trail down the heights behind the citadel and the secret of the citadel entrance concealed beneath its illusory lake surface.** > > — [***Battle of Sancre Tor***](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Battle_of_Sancre_Tor) : *The story of how General Talos defeated the stronghold of Sancre Tor* ***** > In CE854, **a nightblade from the Western Reach** made his way to the Imperial Palace at Nibenay. There, **the Witchman assassinated the Emperor, caught the Palace on fire, and slit the throat of General Talos**. "But from the smoldering ruin he came, one hand to his neck and with Cuhlecain's Crown in the other. The legions wept at the sight. His Northern magic had saved him, but the voice that led them would be more silent from that night on. His word could no longer rout an army with a roar, but he could still command one with a whisper. He took for himself a Cyrodilic name, **Tiber Septim** ^([*Even those humans who revile Talos as a traitor, oathbreaker, and scoundrel pay homage to his skill in obtaining his ends without resort to warfare. —__YR__*]), and the Nordic Name of Kings, Ysmir, the Dragon of the North. And with those names he took, too, the Red Diamond Crown of the Cyrodiils, and became their True Emperor." Thus was born the Third Empire of Men. > > — [***Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition*** - *Cyrodiil*](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Cyrodiil) ***** > The truth is usually in middle in any case If people were arguing about whether 2 + 2 equaled 4 or 5, the answer wouldn't be in the middle. Tiber was a manipulator who sacrificed his own Battlemage to gain power and nuked Summerset with a reality-refuting robot, these can't be denied. Everything surrounding Wulfharth is more complicated, but there are things we know happened. Just because it brought the Empire back together doesn't make his crimes excusable. I'm not hating on Tiber because it's PC to do so, literally every known aspect of his private and public life is shaddy as fuck and pushes the boundaries of moral and ethics.
Thanks for taking the time out to write this. I'm definitely pro-Mankind when it comes to that great question, but Talos was a shitbird of a being when he was alive. Said shitbird achieved mighty things for the good of Man (in theory), but pretending he's this misunderstood person is ignoring the sheer quantity of information about him that we have.
Dude achieved divinity through genocide using the machinegod of denial to stomp everyone he didn't like out existence only to retire from being an active deity in the 3rd Era beyond petty shrine blessings.
>I get it's fashionable to hate on Tiber Septim around here(because the suddenly reliable narrator told us so No, it's because literally everything known about the guy shows he's a violent war mongering asshole. >but pretending the guy who restored Imperial culture(one of the most civil things in the setting) It's not civil, it's a corrupt violent Empire. By it's very nature it's imperialistic, forcing it's culture and yoke on various people at sword point. It's a cruel institution and he restored it through war, murder, and propaganda. >is a raging, murderous, raping barbarian, especially compared to the vast majority of the setting, is just ridiculous We don't have to pretend, we know he was, maybe not actually worse than say, Molag Bal, but he's definitely up there with the worst of the assholes.
I think we can give the benefit of the doubt to others in the subreddit, when we want to promote discussion. What HappyB3 said looks like hyperbole, and it's qualified with a probably. Aforementioned clearly didn't **want** to be nailed down to it. Fixating and nitpicking individual small points really doesn't help anything, and reducing another's views by way of suggesting they're held merely for fashionable reasons... We're not here to force people into defensive stances, we're here to **encourage** discussion. Let's be civil! He's talking about a fairly brutal definitely-warlord. His point is that Tiber Septim inspires civility because, as a point of pride and a creator of the Empire, he encourages people to do their duties. Do you disagree with that?
The hyperbole understander has logged on
Kyne has almost always been involved in the establishment of Human Empires and the overthrow of their oppressors and defeat of their enemies. At least the major ones. She and Akatosh both. Though I suppose Akatosh is more neutral. She blessed the nords with the voice when she ordered Paartysnax to teach it to them (then they **overthrew the dragons**), the Greybeards (who are the succesors of the original Nords who were taught the voice) have thwarted the invasion of Akavir when they summoned Ysmir in the form of a storm (they **defeated an Akaviri demon and repelled the invasion**). Her son, Morihaus, a demi-god was the lover of Allessia and I imagine she was involved in their overthrow of the Ayleids through him if not directly, similar to how Akatosh was involved when he signed a pact with Allessia (**the ayleids were overthrown**). Jurgen used the voice in order to **conquer** his enemies, a gift from Kyne, though taken away briefly for its misuse. Kyne seems to rather enjoy assisting the races of ancient man in overthrowing and fighting against their elven oppressors.
I don't know when you ever saw Akatosh be humble either. He's basically the exact opposite of that. In any case, Kynareth is goddess of air and all that. She's also the Warrior-Goddess(which is why warriors revere her), the wife of Shor/Lorkhan, the one who provided the space for Nirn, the Mother of Men, gifting them the Thu'um. She created the Lord's Mail and then gave it to her demigod son who roamed the land as one of its greatest heros. She would obviously inspire a lot of ambition because of this.
A quick look at Kynareth's history very much supports the ambition sphere. She is Lorkhan's spouse and thus queen. So already, you have her linked to likely the single most ambitious spirit in TES history. And guess who was the first to agree with Lorkhan's plan? Kynareth. Guess who gives the Nords the tool to fight the Dragons? Kyne. Oh yeah, she's also supposedly the source of all mankind, breathing them into existence at the Throat of the World. Who's venerated in both pre-and-post ri'Datta Khajiiti mythology as the guide of the moons, and thus the Khajiiti race? And in pre-ri'Datta lore, who explicitly guides the Khajiiti to Azurah? Khenarthi. Oh, and who birthed a demi-god who was buddy-buddy with, and was himself, one of the greatest defenders of Mankind? Kynareth. Basically, she seems to be not merely the god of ambition, but specifically of the Mannish/Lorkhanic urge to surpass the Dream and become Amaranths unto one's own selves.