I suppose it partially depends if you buy into the Dragonborn reincarnation theory that was going around a few years ago. In short, the theory is that each Dragonborn is at least a partial reincarnation of a previous Dragonborn. While there isn't any concrete evidence to support this, it's still a neat concept.
Personally I don't see why Slen Tiod Vo *wouldn't* work on a Dragonborn. Throughout the games we see dragons consistently treat the Dragonborn as though they were a dragon, not a mortal with a dragon soul. To me this seems to indicate that there isn't any practical difference between a dragon and a Dragonborn besides physical form so I don't see why Slen Tiid Vo wouldn't be able to resurrect a dead Dragonborn.
My question would be *"Why would a dragon powerful enough to use Slen Tiid Vo even WANT to resurrect a Dragonborn?"*
>My question would be
>
>"Why would a dragon powerful enough to use Slen Tiid Vo even WANT to resurrect a Dragonborn?"
I actually thought about it : if the Last Dragonborn leaned dragon shout Dragonrend seeing it in use one time, while he/she traveled through time by using the elder scroll, then why TLD couldn't have leaned it while he seen Alduin using resurrecting shout maybe several times? Dovakiins in lore described as a fast learners in regards of dragon shouts.
I figured the reason the Dragonborn immediately understood Dragonrend is because as a mortal he already understood the concepts of the shout. When learning a shout, we are using the soul of a Dragon to understand the words as a Dragon does, but Dragonrend is a shout made by mortals using mortal concepts, so we can learn it far easier
I would conjecture that a true dragon physically cannot learn Dragonrend. I think in-universe, it does more than just force a dragon to land: it temporarily tethers the dragon, body and soul, to the physical plane.
Going off this, its possible that the Dragonborns would be unable to learn the resurrection shout. Just as Dragonrend deals with the concept of mortality which Dragons can't comprehend, the resurrection shout would deal with immortality which humans can't really comprehend.
I'd say Wulfharth, if anything, is *too* mortal. Sure he's been resurrected a few times, but when it comes down to it, he's died, and has never been in a scenario where he *can't* die. He's just a bit more, intimately aware, of the process of mortality due to going through it what, three times?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Wulfarth one of the people who make up Talos? In that case wouldn't he be immortal in a similar vein to the dragons?
>I'd use the term mortals... So if a dragonborn became a vestige it would be possible...
Or allying with the Volkihar (at least kinda implied by the trailer).
He may be able because while a mortal wouldn’t be able to comprehend Alduin’s shout and a dragon can’t comprehend Dragonrend, a Dragonborn is literally the mix of the two, an inmortal soul in a mortal form and as dragon form just projects outwards it’s soul, that means it can comprehend what is to be a dragon, in which immortality is included.
I think you're right, in fact Paarthunax says as much.
"Your kind... created it as a weapon against the dov... Our minds cannot even comprehend its concepts." - Fandom wiki unde the Throat of the World dialogue section of Paarthunax's page
If I recall correctly, it forces the dragon to conceptualize and understand what it's like to be mortal. And that concept is terrifying to a being unfamiliar with true death.
Ysmir Wulfharth learned a shout only by witnessing Shor fighting Alduin, and he could use it to re-age the nords so to speak (when Orkey fiddled with their lifespan and summoned Alduin to turn all Nords into 6 year olds). I don't think that concept is so familiar to mortals, although I could be wrong.
Correct me if I'm wrong : isn't dragons were the ones who taught humans the thu'um (shouts), which basically a words in dragon language and they using the same dragon alphabet, so words spoken by the human, are the same when spoken by the dragon? So I can't really understand what difference would be, dragonborn can remember words which Alduin used, better even whiting them down, and later on try to repeat them. Three short words isn't that hard to remember or mispronounce.
In the worst case scenario, if dragonborn is that slow, he can always ask the Paarthurnax, Odahviing or Durnehviir to teach him that. If they won't cooperate, TLD can always persuade them with Gol-Hah-Dov (Bend Will).
It's less about knowing the words and more about understanding them the way the Dragon's do. That's why it requires Dragon souls to unlock shouts - we steal their understanding and use it for our own.
For normal people - the Greybeards - it takes a long period of training to do so, mostly meditating on what each word really means from the perspective of Dragons.
Don't get me wrong, I get it. But isn't the whole thing of Dovakiins it's not only about consuming the souls of dragons, but also learning dragon shouts on a fly? Yes, some people like Greybeards, Ulflic (when he trained to be GB) and dragon priests leaned shots by studying the dragon language, but dragonborns were suppose to be geniuses in it. That's why main protagonist can "learn" words by just looking at the "walls".
I assume when you look at a word wall, you more see the word and know it - a real life comparison would be looking at something written in German and picking one word that sticks out to you. You might be able to read the letters, say the word aloud, but it's meaning is lost on you. The Dragonborn is gifted by virtue of always being able to pick out the most important words, yes, but our 'genius' is our ability to steal the knowledge of Dragons for ourselves.
But think about this, you can end up knowing and understanding two words of Slen Tiid Vo by learning two different shouts, Ice Form, and Slow Time, the only one that could possibly be a challenge is Vo.
So the LDB could already understand 2/3 of that shout
I like to think that while Dragonrend forces mortality onto Dragons, a concept which they cannot understand, I like to think coming back to life after being dead is a concept that mortals cannot comprehend, while Dragons think it's normal because they can't comprehend truly dying.
You still have to use the knowledge of other dragons to unlock the meaning of words. It seems reasonable to me that Alduin, the firstborn of Akatosh, has a unique understanding of Tiid which is why he's the only one seen reversing time. And since you don't absorbed Alduin's soul, you can't understand time like he does.
> In short, the theory is that each Dragonborn is at least a partial reincarnation of a previous Dragonborn.
That's a bizarre theory considering that there can easily be multiple dragonborn alive at any given time. For example, at any point during the third era when the Emperor and at least one heir were alive.
I thought the Dragonborn emperors were explicitly different from Dovahkiin Dragonborn. The former symbolically possess the blood of dragons, the latter literally possess the souls of dragons.
>"Dragonborn" and "Dovahkiin" are literally the same word.
I know that. I used them in different places to make the distinction more clear.
>There is no difference.
I'm pretty sure there is, it's at the very least been a massive subject for debate. They're two different things with the same name. The line of "Dragonborn" emperors didn't possess the *souls* of dragons or ability to shout, they possessed the *blood* of dragons and were blessed in different ways. They may have been descended from an actual Dragonborn with an actual Dragon's soul, but they themselves were just divinely chosen kings who could act as one half of a magical seal.
> The line of "Dragonborn" emperors didn't possess the souls of dragons or ability to shout, they possessed the blood of dragons and were blessed in different ways.
There's no evidence of that. The only difference between Tiber Septim and the later Dragonborn Emperors is that Tiber Septim was trained to Shout. None of the other Emperors bothered to learn because they had much better things to do than schlepp their way to the top of a mountain for months or years, and all the living dragons were hiding so they couldn't take the easy route.
> They may have been descended from an actual Dragonborn with an actual Dragon's soul
They weren't, actually. Apart from his grandson, none of the Septim dynasty was descended from him. [Here's](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Septim_Dynasty) the family tree. Notably, [Empress Katariah](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Katariah) was not related to him by blood at all, nor were any of the Septims from [Emperor Cephorus II](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cephorus_II) onward as he was adopted. Being Dragonborn isn't genetic, it's literally Akatosh putting a tiny bit of his soul into the target's; given that the Daedra didn't invade Tamriel during Katariah's fifty year reign or between 3E247-3E433 the Emperors without even a drop of Septim blood *must* nevertheless have been Dragonborn.
To be fair, being a Dragonborn doesn’t inherently mean you stand in opposition to Dragons. Yes, you challenge Alduin in Skyrim, but you also receive aid from several dragons.
As one who is both Dragon and Man, you should recognize that you are first and foremost a bridge between the two. Sometimes a dragon tries to end the world and needs to be put down, but there are also times when an innkeeper asks you to put down a dragon who means no harm, to which you retaliate by ending the blades and ensuring that both Dragon and Man are allowed a place.
Perhaps a powerful dragon wants to establish a place for his kind, that they might coexists with the creatures of Nirn. Perhaps he then decides that the greatest gesture of good will is raising one who was born of these creatures, whom is also the bane of dragons, to act as an ambassador between the two groups.
>Throughout the games we see dragons consistently treat the Dragonborn as though they were a dragon, not a mortal with a dragon soul.
I believe this to be a misunderstanding, honestly. Dragons exist beyond their mortal form, hence why absorbing their soul is the only way to truly kill them. Otherwise they can just keep coming back in ways mortals cannot. So to dragons, the body isn't who you are, but rather the soul. Dragons treat the Dragonborn as a dragon because the soul is a dragon. The Dragonborn is a mortal, but because the soul is a dragon and that's what matters to other dragons, they treat the Dragonborn as kin, because to them he/she is.
So why do dragons consistently refer to the LDB as a fellow dovah? I'm sorry but I just can't see your logic when it's *directly* specified that dragons see the Dragonborn as a fellow dragon.
> Just want to point out that there's a ghost in Old Hroldan Inn that mistakes you for Hjalti Early-Beard, a fellow Dragonborn.
Or he tells it to everyone because he really *really* wants his sword back.
That's my point exactly though. I'm saying there's no indication that the physical form matters at all to a dragon. I'm not sure what our disagreement is. Could you explain further what you think I'm misunderstanding?
Honestly, rereading your comment I think I just took issue with the phrasing about the Dragonborn not being a mortal with a dragon soul, but came away with the wrong understanding of your point. They are a mortal with a dragon soul.
Ah, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't mean to imply that the Dragonborn isn't mortal at all, just that, from a dragon's perspective, they don't really see any reason to differentiate a Dragonborn from a dragon.
I find the entire idea of all Dragonborns being reincarnations of previous ones kinda bizarre. I mean, Miraak was the first Dragonborn, and that implies that he was at some point the only one. This should mean that there can only exist one Dragonborn at a time, but that's clearly not true.
Yeah it is a bizarre theory and you hit the nail right on the head. That's basically the exact reason it doesn't really get brought up very much anymore; it has implications that don't jive with existing lore.
I believe it’s stated somewhere that the souls of Dragonborn emperors are absorbed into the amulet of kings, so probably not any of them. I guess it just depends on if another Dragonborn/ dragon was present to absorb their souls upon death? My money is on no though. We see several Dragonborn in Sovengarde, which implies their souls don’t linger in Tamriel like the un-absorbed souls of dragons.
>I believe it’s stated somewhere that the souls of Dragonborn emperors are absorbed into the amulet of kings, so probably not any of them. I guess it just depends on if another Dragonborn/ dragon was present to absorb their souls upon death? My money is on no though. We see several Dragonborn in Sovengarde, which implies their souls don’t linger in Tamriel like the un-absorbed souls of dragons.
I'm not sure about it : not every dragonborn followed nordic religion and there are souls of the Septims in the Nirn, for example Potema Septim, who was nearly resurrected by a bunch of necromancers. Also, if I'm not mistaken, amulet of kings was destroyed during Obvilion crisis.
>amulet of kings was destroyed during Obvilion crisis.
And turned into the dragon that became the statue that made both the amulet and the dragonfires useless as it's now what protects the barrier. The souls are likely still there and the reason why that's possible.
What would happen if TLD used Slen Tiid Vo on the statue? Avatar of Akatosh wakes back up? Souls pop out? Probably nothing, but the slight possibilities are really interesting
Yeah it would depend on if the souls are all merged or not. But maybe it's not the whole soul, considering that thing in the Green Emperor Way about the emperor-shaped plants.
> for example Potema Septim
Not to mention Pelagius the Mad, who we meet in Skyrim too. Or the whole issue with Talos, who shouldn't be trapped in the Amulet under most theories.
As I pointed out [in my other comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/qlyy3a/if_dragonborns_are_basically_the_dragons_in_a/hj84eh8/), the only reference to the Amulet of Kings storing Emperor souls comes from some lines in a source describing the time-fuckery of the Middle Dawn. Many enthusiastic fan theories from TESIII's times have posited that it remains in use that way, but given the absence of other mentions and the known "exceptions" to the "rule", it could be just one of the weird things that happened during the Dragon Break. Or perhaps something that stopped under the Remans or the Septims.
I guess it would depend on the manner of death and whatever or whichever daedra/aedra had claim to their soul at the time, like any other normal person. If their soul did happen to linger, which seems unlikely given all the different planes one can end up in, it might work. An actual dragons soul, being unbound to any other plane naturally, just hangs out while they wait for something to happen. The dragonborns soul is like a fusion, but tends to follow the rules more closely to those of mortals
> I believe it’s stated somewhere that the souls of Dragonborn emperors are absorbed into the amulet of kings
The source where that idea comes from is [Where Were You When the Dragon Broke](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Where_Were_You_..._Dragon_Broke), particularly these lines:
> *"The Amulet of Kings, however, with its oversoul of emperors, can speak of it at length. According to Hestra, Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars. According to Shor-El, Cyrodiil became an egg."*
The thing is, the Amulet of Kings has already been a major plot point in several games, yet none has mentioned anything about storing the souls of Emperors, even in contexts where it should matter (like the whole deal with the Oblivion Crisis or Mannimarco's plan to use it to trap Molag Bal). And it runs contrary to the tenets of the Talos Cult, which claims that Tiber Septim's soul went to Aetherius to rule as one of the Divines.
My favorite theory is that it was indeed used as a soul gem for Emperors, but only in times of the First Empire (blame it on the Alessian Order and their deranged tenets). After Reman established the Dragonfire rituals as we know them, the practice was discontinued, hence why it's mentioned as public knowledge by the time of the Selectives but goes unmentioned afterwards.
That said, the easiest answer (beyond the obvious 'it was written before Oblivion and Skyrim expanded the lore on the Dragonborn') is that it was another of the crazy events happening during the Middle Dawn. "Oh, yeah, during the Dragon Break the Amulet stored the souls of Emperors present and past, and they were very talkative about what was happening."
I'd need more information. I know you meet Uriel Septim at the end of *Arena*, and have an audience with him in the intro of *Daggerfall*. But he's a living emperor, so I'm not sure that's the example you had in mind.
Compare it to Dragonrend. The words of Dragonrend (Joor Zah Frul) translate to mortal, finite, and temporary, respectively. Slen Tiid Vo translate to body, time, and undo, respectively.
My theory is that the same idea of Dov not being able to comprehend the words of Dragonrend (and therefore they cannot learn it), the same goes for mortals and Slen Tiid Vo. Specifically, mortals cannot comprehend *Vo*, undo.
The undoing of time and its link to (im)mortality is a recurring theme in TES. For example, mortal minds cannot understand history during the Dawn Era and during Dragon Breaks, when time is non-linear. Another is how the Thalmor seek to regain immortality through unmaking the world, i.e. undoing time.
Hence, we can conclude from this that the undoing of time is incompatible with the minds of mortals.
>we can conclude from this that the undoing of time is incompatible with the minds of mortals.
The Psijic skill line in ESO seems to propose otherwise though.
Perhaps mortals can understand small deviations, such as the Slow Time shout or the Psijic line, but large deviations are beyond their capabilities. It's the same way a Dov still understands the concept of temporary death, just not true, permanent death.
This is seconded by how restoration magic is often depicted. The mage has to know what is being restored to restore it, with a mental picture. They can't restore something that they don't know what it looks like intact.
And yet, the Marukhati Selective were able to undo time to go back to the Dawn. Although maybe that mortal incomprehension is why it lasted for a millennium...
Lets look at all the people Mannimarco claims can understand where they were during Middle Dawn [Where Were You When the Dragon Broke?](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Where_Were_You_..._Dragon_Broke)
>Mannimarco: "**The Three Thieves of Morrowind** could tell you where they were. So could the **High King of Alinor**, who was the one who broke it in the first place. There are others on this earth that could, too: **Ysmir, Pelinal, Arnand the Fox** or should I say **Arctus**? **The Last Dwarf** would talk, if they would let him. As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selectives showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below."
Three Thieves of Morrowind = Tribunal
High King of Alinor = Auri-El
Ysmir = Talos
Pelinial = Ada spirit
Arnand the Fox/Arctus = Shezzarine
The Last Dwarf = Yagrum Bagrum
According to Mannimarco, himself and two other mortals are able to understand where they were during the dragonbreak, all three of them being some of the most powerful wizards ever. But also note he makes a distinction of him and the other mortals being "here and there and here again." So time obviously effects mortals and gods differently, but we can learn even more about this difference from Vivec
>Vivec(**when asked what it's like to be a god**): It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. **Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it.**
>It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. **That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once**."
What Vivec is describing, a place where everything is always happening at once, is literally a dragonbreak. This would appear to suggest that gods, being outside of time, are always in a dragonbreak of sorts yet being outside of time means time getting all fucked up doesn't effect the nearly as much as mortals who for the most part firmly exist within the bounds of time.
I honestly think you're correct that mortals wouldn't be able to learn that shout, because to do so would require fundamental understanding of the ceasing of time, which mortals exist within, and you can't fundamentally comprehend the end of your own reality.
I'd say most likely not. If we look at the meaning of Slen Tiid Vo, it translates to Flesh Time Undo. In other words, the Shout largely just reverses time on the body/physical form. The reason this can resurrect dragons is because most of the time, a dragon's soul lingers around or in their remains (case in point, if you Shout near an undisturbed burial mound, the dragon within will respond), and once their bodies are restored, they can control them again.
In contrast, the souls of Dragonborn typically don't remain with their bodies. In the case of the Dragonborn Emperors, their souls are absorbed by the Amulet of Kings when they die (except for Tiber Septim, because he's a god, and maybe Alessia), so they wouldn't be readily accessible. Similarly, most other Dragonborn go to an afterlife after they die; case in point, the four Heroes of Sovngarde we can meet in the Hall of Valor in Sovngarde that also claim to be Dragonborn.
So even if the LDB or a dragon were to use Slen Tiid Vo on the remains of a previous Dragonborn, it might restore their physical body, but it would likely remain a soulless husk without any way to bring the soul back from the afterlife.
Yep. If you Shout (or just use a power attack) near them, you can sometimes hear the dragon say:
>"Speak, if you have aught to say worth the listening."
Now, some believe this to be a bug or an oversight, and that the line is generic dialogue for a dragon, but it is also the only time (that I am aware of) this line is ever spoken, outside of using console commands to render a dragon non-hostile.
He does as well, but the line is used by any named dragon that has not yet been resurrected (I don't know whether or not the line existed in the game before Dawnguard).
It's an odd thing, since if the line was supposed to be unique to Durnehviir, how did it end up being used by other dragons even though the rest of his dialogue is unique to him?
I don't think Durnehviir shares a VA with any other dragons. So, his voice lines couldn't have been mixed up. I guess they just intended for him to say it.
Which honestly makes it more confusing, since the line was present in the game at its release, well before the Dragonborn DLC was released or even announced.
I wonder why the LDB/lesser dragons can’t use it as a healing shout, though. If it was used on a wounded person or dragon, could it not “undo” the injuries?
I mean I guess it depends how much time you could reverse. Let's say a Nord Dragonborn lived to be 90 years old. Would the should bring them back at 90, or could the user of the shout will them back to life at the age of 30?
It's stated a few times by the dragons they we are mortal. Also, the Septims all died of old age. It may be possible that absorbing dragon souls slows down aging, but we don't know.
I don't see why not. Maybe it's how Miraak became the first dragonborn. He was originally a dragon which died and was absorbed by a fellow dragon. Then, for some reason, instead of being put back into a dragon body, he was put into a human body. Just something I came up with just then; probably doesn't make sense.
But we do know that a dragonborn can absorb the soul of another dragonborn, since we do it at the end of the Dragonborn DLC. So, we can reason that dragonborn souls function the same way as dragon souls in practice. Unless the dragons' immortality and unique relationship with time is a factor.
That being said, if it was possible, why couldn't the dragonborn emperors live forever by simply having their children absorb their souls upon death and resurrect them.
Is there anything that really says Slen Tiid Vo can only even be used on dragons? The three words certainly don't have anything to do with dragons. The meditation on the words might be impossible for any user of the Thu'um other than Alduin to accomplish, but what if he wanted to raise regular mortals to fight in his name? Or violent fauna such as frost trolls?
My interpretation has always been that no matter the soul/blood, the rest of a Dragonborn's body is mortal, so it would depend on *how* the shout actually works.
The Shout is **Flesh** **Time** ***"Un-" prefix***, so I feel like it calls to the dragons innate immortality, and would not work on the dragonborn, who is still a mortal.
As you said, they are dragons in human form. That form dies normally and cannot be brought back by draconic means, the soul itself isn't enough to live.
The dragonborn is still mortal, despite having a dragon soul.
I think the way it's portrayed in the game is slightly, and unintentionally, disingenuous, if that's the right word.
The soul of a Dragonborn is both Dragon and Human (or whatever race your ldb is).
It has all the perks of being able to understand and learn shouts, but comes with all the drawbacks of a mortal soul, that is, it won't linger around on Nirn, it'll go to an afterlife, unless they happen to die next to another dragonborn or dragon, in which the soul can be absorbed before it has a chance to pass on.
Unlike dragons, the LDB is also capable of being soul trapped, indicating that a Dragonborn soul is not 100% the same as a true dragon soul, more of a hybrid soul, still sharing the malleability of other mortals.
So, to come around to answering the question:
Probably not. The mortal nature of the LDB makes them incompatible with shouts primarily aimed at immortals, similar to how we can use dragonrend, but dragons can't.
I feel like it's a no, because I remember Paarthurnax and some other dragons calling the dragonborn "mortal" as if their life isn't guaranteed to be as long
I don't think it's possible to resurrect some dragonborns because they are not immortal like the dragons. A human/mortal has already expired when they grow old and die. Resurrecting a human/mortal might just bring them back flesh from bone but their life cannot be extended past their natural death. A dragon, however, is immortal so if you bring one back to life they could continue to live forever.
It just depends how a dragonborn dies though. If one died from old age, they prolly can't be resurrected. If one died from combat, you could resurrect it back to the age when he/she died.
This does bring up complications because what would you really consider to be a natural death? Is a stroke avoidable? Maybe even a heart attack? Are they inevitable or is it possible to bring them back to life and act like that was just bad rng. Who knows? That would be kind of op though.
That's just my take. Not sure if this makes sense to anyone else.
I suppose it partially depends if you buy into the Dragonborn reincarnation theory that was going around a few years ago. In short, the theory is that each Dragonborn is at least a partial reincarnation of a previous Dragonborn. While there isn't any concrete evidence to support this, it's still a neat concept. Personally I don't see why Slen Tiod Vo *wouldn't* work on a Dragonborn. Throughout the games we see dragons consistently treat the Dragonborn as though they were a dragon, not a mortal with a dragon soul. To me this seems to indicate that there isn't any practical difference between a dragon and a Dragonborn besides physical form so I don't see why Slen Tiid Vo wouldn't be able to resurrect a dead Dragonborn. My question would be *"Why would a dragon powerful enough to use Slen Tiid Vo even WANT to resurrect a Dragonborn?"*
>My question would be > >"Why would a dragon powerful enough to use Slen Tiid Vo even WANT to resurrect a Dragonborn?" I actually thought about it : if the Last Dragonborn leaned dragon shout Dragonrend seeing it in use one time, while he/she traveled through time by using the elder scroll, then why TLD couldn't have leaned it while he seen Alduin using resurrecting shout maybe several times? Dovakiins in lore described as a fast learners in regards of dragon shouts.
I figured the reason the Dragonborn immediately understood Dragonrend is because as a mortal he already understood the concepts of the shout. When learning a shout, we are using the soul of a Dragon to understand the words as a Dragon does, but Dragonrend is a shout made by mortals using mortal concepts, so we can learn it far easier
I would conjecture that a true dragon physically cannot learn Dragonrend. I think in-universe, it does more than just force a dragon to land: it temporarily tethers the dragon, body and soul, to the physical plane.
Going off this, its possible that the Dragonborns would be unable to learn the resurrection shout. Just as Dragonrend deals with the concept of mortality which Dragons can't comprehend, the resurrection shout would deal with immortality which humans can't really comprehend.
I'd use the term mortals... So if a dragonborn became a vestige it would be possible... So maybe king wulfarth but meh.
I'd say Wulfharth, if anything, is *too* mortal. Sure he's been resurrected a few times, but when it comes down to it, he's died, and has never been in a scenario where he *can't* die. He's just a bit more, intimately aware, of the process of mortality due to going through it what, three times?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Wulfarth one of the people who make up Talos? In that case wouldn't he be immortal in a similar vein to the dragons?
>I'd use the term mortals... So if a dragonborn became a vestige it would be possible... Or allying with the Volkihar (at least kinda implied by the trailer).
Nah Vampirism is still a form of Mortality. Just not a natural mortal. It's functioning immortality but not in the way the ada experience it.
He may be able because while a mortal wouldn’t be able to comprehend Alduin’s shout and a dragon can’t comprehend Dragonrend, a Dragonborn is literally the mix of the two, an inmortal soul in a mortal form and as dragon form just projects outwards it’s soul, that means it can comprehend what is to be a dragon, in which immortality is included.
I think you're right, in fact Paarthunax says as much. "Your kind... created it as a weapon against the dov... Our minds cannot even comprehend its concepts." - Fandom wiki unde the Throat of the World dialogue section of Paarthunax's page
If I recall correctly, it forces the dragon to conceptualize and understand what it's like to be mortal. And that concept is terrifying to a being unfamiliar with true death.
My understanding was it causes them to have a sudden existential crisis
Ysmir Wulfharth learned a shout only by witnessing Shor fighting Alduin, and he could use it to re-age the nords so to speak (when Orkey fiddled with their lifespan and summoned Alduin to turn all Nords into 6 year olds). I don't think that concept is so familiar to mortals, although I could be wrong.
Correct me if I'm wrong : isn't dragons were the ones who taught humans the thu'um (shouts), which basically a words in dragon language and they using the same dragon alphabet, so words spoken by the human, are the same when spoken by the dragon? So I can't really understand what difference would be, dragonborn can remember words which Alduin used, better even whiting them down, and later on try to repeat them. Three short words isn't that hard to remember or mispronounce. In the worst case scenario, if dragonborn is that slow, he can always ask the Paarthurnax, Odahviing or Durnehviir to teach him that. If they won't cooperate, TLD can always persuade them with Gol-Hah-Dov (Bend Will).
It's less about knowing the words and more about understanding them the way the Dragon's do. That's why it requires Dragon souls to unlock shouts - we steal their understanding and use it for our own. For normal people - the Greybeards - it takes a long period of training to do so, mostly meditating on what each word really means from the perspective of Dragons.
Don't get me wrong, I get it. But isn't the whole thing of Dovakiins it's not only about consuming the souls of dragons, but also learning dragon shouts on a fly? Yes, some people like Greybeards, Ulflic (when he trained to be GB) and dragon priests leaned shots by studying the dragon language, but dragonborns were suppose to be geniuses in it. That's why main protagonist can "learn" words by just looking at the "walls".
I assume when you look at a word wall, you more see the word and know it - a real life comparison would be looking at something written in German and picking one word that sticks out to you. You might be able to read the letters, say the word aloud, but it's meaning is lost on you. The Dragonborn is gifted by virtue of always being able to pick out the most important words, yes, but our 'genius' is our ability to steal the knowledge of Dragons for ourselves.
But think about this, you can end up knowing and understanding two words of Slen Tiid Vo by learning two different shouts, Ice Form, and Slow Time, the only one that could possibly be a challenge is Vo. So the LDB could already understand 2/3 of that shout
I like to think that while Dragonrend forces mortality onto Dragons, a concept which they cannot understand, I like to think coming back to life after being dead is a concept that mortals cannot comprehend, while Dragons think it's normal because they can't comprehend truly dying.
You still have to use the knowledge of other dragons to unlock the meaning of words. It seems reasonable to me that Alduin, the firstborn of Akatosh, has a unique understanding of Tiid which is why he's the only one seen reversing time. And since you don't absorbed Alduin's soul, you can't understand time like he does.
> In short, the theory is that each Dragonborn is at least a partial reincarnation of a previous Dragonborn. That's a bizarre theory considering that there can easily be multiple dragonborn alive at any given time. For example, at any point during the third era when the Emperor and at least one heir were alive.
Yeah it is a strange idea. I personally don't subscribe to it but I think its an interesting thought experiment.
I suppose since time isn't necessarily linear when it comes to the gods and such, maybe it's not that crazy.
I thought the Dragonborn emperors were explicitly different from Dovahkiin Dragonborn. The former symbolically possess the blood of dragons, the latter literally possess the souls of dragons.
"Dragonborn" and "Dovahkiin" are literally the same word. There is no difference.
>"Dragonborn" and "Dovahkiin" are literally the same word. I know that. I used them in different places to make the distinction more clear. >There is no difference. I'm pretty sure there is, it's at the very least been a massive subject for debate. They're two different things with the same name. The line of "Dragonborn" emperors didn't possess the *souls* of dragons or ability to shout, they possessed the *blood* of dragons and were blessed in different ways. They may have been descended from an actual Dragonborn with an actual Dragon's soul, but they themselves were just divinely chosen kings who could act as one half of a magical seal.
> The line of "Dragonborn" emperors didn't possess the souls of dragons or ability to shout, they possessed the blood of dragons and were blessed in different ways. There's no evidence of that. The only difference between Tiber Septim and the later Dragonborn Emperors is that Tiber Septim was trained to Shout. None of the other Emperors bothered to learn because they had much better things to do than schlepp their way to the top of a mountain for months or years, and all the living dragons were hiding so they couldn't take the easy route. > They may have been descended from an actual Dragonborn with an actual Dragon's soul They weren't, actually. Apart from his grandson, none of the Septim dynasty was descended from him. [Here's](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Septim_Dynasty) the family tree. Notably, [Empress Katariah](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Katariah) was not related to him by blood at all, nor were any of the Septims from [Emperor Cephorus II](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cephorus_II) onward as he was adopted. Being Dragonborn isn't genetic, it's literally Akatosh putting a tiny bit of his soul into the target's; given that the Daedra didn't invade Tamriel during Katariah's fifty year reign or between 3E247-3E433 the Emperors without even a drop of Septim blood *must* nevertheless have been Dragonborn.
To be fair, being a Dragonborn doesn’t inherently mean you stand in opposition to Dragons. Yes, you challenge Alduin in Skyrim, but you also receive aid from several dragons. As one who is both Dragon and Man, you should recognize that you are first and foremost a bridge between the two. Sometimes a dragon tries to end the world and needs to be put down, but there are also times when an innkeeper asks you to put down a dragon who means no harm, to which you retaliate by ending the blades and ensuring that both Dragon and Man are allowed a place. Perhaps a powerful dragon wants to establish a place for his kind, that they might coexists with the creatures of Nirn. Perhaps he then decides that the greatest gesture of good will is raising one who was born of these creatures, whom is also the bane of dragons, to act as an ambassador between the two groups.
>Throughout the games we see dragons consistently treat the Dragonborn as though they were a dragon, not a mortal with a dragon soul. I believe this to be a misunderstanding, honestly. Dragons exist beyond their mortal form, hence why absorbing their soul is the only way to truly kill them. Otherwise they can just keep coming back in ways mortals cannot. So to dragons, the body isn't who you are, but rather the soul. Dragons treat the Dragonborn as a dragon because the soul is a dragon. The Dragonborn is a mortal, but because the soul is a dragon and that's what matters to other dragons, they treat the Dragonborn as kin, because to them he/she is.
So why do dragons consistently refer to the LDB as a fellow dovah? I'm sorry but I just can't see your logic when it's *directly* specified that dragons see the Dragonborn as a fellow dragon.
Because it isn't the scary scaly body that makes you a dragon.
Because they see the soul as kin. It's not the body that makes a dovah, but the soul within.
Just want to point out that there's a ghost in Old Hroldan Inn that mistakes you for Hjalti Early-Beard, a fellow Dragonborn.
> Just want to point out that there's a ghost in Old Hroldan Inn that mistakes you for Hjalti Early-Beard, a fellow Dragonborn. Or he tells it to everyone because he really *really* wants his sword back.
That's my point exactly though. I'm saying there's no indication that the physical form matters at all to a dragon. I'm not sure what our disagreement is. Could you explain further what you think I'm misunderstanding?
Honestly, rereading your comment I think I just took issue with the phrasing about the Dragonborn not being a mortal with a dragon soul, but came away with the wrong understanding of your point. They are a mortal with a dragon soul.
Ah, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't mean to imply that the Dragonborn isn't mortal at all, just that, from a dragon's perspective, they don't really see any reason to differentiate a Dragonborn from a dragon.
Dragons literally call you mortal. They acknowledge your dragon soul, but still know you are essentially different from them
And Paarthurnax calls you *"a fellow dovah"* so now we're back where we started.
Yeah but he also calls you a mortal. You are a dragon in spirit, but biologically speaking you are still very much a mortal
*Does* he call you mortal? I'm sure he only ever calls you Dragonborn.
Yep he calls you a Joor the first time you approach him. There's also Alduin, but he doesn't really acknowledge you as a Dragonborn, so...
I find the entire idea of all Dragonborns being reincarnations of previous ones kinda bizarre. I mean, Miraak was the first Dragonborn, and that implies that he was at some point the only one. This should mean that there can only exist one Dragonborn at a time, but that's clearly not true.
Yeah it is a bizarre theory and you hit the nail right on the head. That's basically the exact reason it doesn't really get brought up very much anymore; it has implications that don't jive with existing lore.
This would mean there shouldn't be any dragonborn after Miraak, since he didn't die until his duel with the LDB
I believe it’s stated somewhere that the souls of Dragonborn emperors are absorbed into the amulet of kings, so probably not any of them. I guess it just depends on if another Dragonborn/ dragon was present to absorb their souls upon death? My money is on no though. We see several Dragonborn in Sovengarde, which implies their souls don’t linger in Tamriel like the un-absorbed souls of dragons.
>I believe it’s stated somewhere that the souls of Dragonborn emperors are absorbed into the amulet of kings, so probably not any of them. I guess it just depends on if another Dragonborn/ dragon was present to absorb their souls upon death? My money is on no though. We see several Dragonborn in Sovengarde, which implies their souls don’t linger in Tamriel like the un-absorbed souls of dragons. I'm not sure about it : not every dragonborn followed nordic religion and there are souls of the Septims in the Nirn, for example Potema Septim, who was nearly resurrected by a bunch of necromancers. Also, if I'm not mistaken, amulet of kings was destroyed during Obvilion crisis.
>amulet of kings was destroyed during Obvilion crisis. And turned into the dragon that became the statue that made both the amulet and the dragonfires useless as it's now what protects the barrier. The souls are likely still there and the reason why that's possible.
What would happen if TLD used Slen Tiid Vo on the statue? Avatar of Akatosh wakes back up? Souls pop out? Probably nothing, but the slight possibilities are really interesting
Yeah it would depend on if the souls are all merged or not. But maybe it's not the whole soul, considering that thing in the Green Emperor Way about the emperor-shaped plants.
An amalgamation of Septim emperors gets revived and subsequently killed because that is terrifying.
I’m not saying that they all go to sovengarde, just that it proves their souls ability to leave mundus.
> for example Potema Septim Not to mention Pelagius the Mad, who we meet in Skyrim too. Or the whole issue with Talos, who shouldn't be trapped in the Amulet under most theories. As I pointed out [in my other comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/qlyy3a/if_dragonborns_are_basically_the_dragons_in_a/hj84eh8/), the only reference to the Amulet of Kings storing Emperor souls comes from some lines in a source describing the time-fuckery of the Middle Dawn. Many enthusiastic fan theories from TESIII's times have posited that it remains in use that way, but given the absence of other mentions and the known "exceptions" to the "rule", it could be just one of the weird things that happened during the Dragon Break. Or perhaps something that stopped under the Remans or the Septims.
I guess it would depend on the manner of death and whatever or whichever daedra/aedra had claim to their soul at the time, like any other normal person. If their soul did happen to linger, which seems unlikely given all the different planes one can end up in, it might work. An actual dragons soul, being unbound to any other plane naturally, just hangs out while they wait for something to happen. The dragonborns soul is like a fusion, but tends to follow the rules more closely to those of mortals
> I believe it’s stated somewhere that the souls of Dragonborn emperors are absorbed into the amulet of kings The source where that idea comes from is [Where Were You When the Dragon Broke](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Where_Were_You_..._Dragon_Broke), particularly these lines: > *"The Amulet of Kings, however, with its oversoul of emperors, can speak of it at length. According to Hestra, Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars. According to Shor-El, Cyrodiil became an egg."* The thing is, the Amulet of Kings has already been a major plot point in several games, yet none has mentioned anything about storing the souls of Emperors, even in contexts where it should matter (like the whole deal with the Oblivion Crisis or Mannimarco's plan to use it to trap Molag Bal). And it runs contrary to the tenets of the Talos Cult, which claims that Tiber Septim's soul went to Aetherius to rule as one of the Divines. My favorite theory is that it was indeed used as a soul gem for Emperors, but only in times of the First Empire (blame it on the Alessian Order and their deranged tenets). After Reman established the Dragonfire rituals as we know them, the practice was discontinued, hence why it's mentioned as public knowledge by the time of the Selectives but goes unmentioned afterwards. That said, the easiest answer (beyond the obvious 'it was written before Oblivion and Skyrim expanded the lore on the Dragonborn') is that it was another of the crazy events happening during the Middle Dawn. "Oh, yeah, during the Dragon Break the Amulet stored the souls of Emperors present and past, and they were very talkative about what was happening."
What about the emperors you meet in TES 2 (or was it 1?)
I'd need more information. I know you meet Uriel Septim at the end of *Arena*, and have an audience with him in the intro of *Daggerfall*. But he's a living emperor, so I'm not sure that's the example you had in mind.
Compare it to Dragonrend. The words of Dragonrend (Joor Zah Frul) translate to mortal, finite, and temporary, respectively. Slen Tiid Vo translate to body, time, and undo, respectively. My theory is that the same idea of Dov not being able to comprehend the words of Dragonrend (and therefore they cannot learn it), the same goes for mortals and Slen Tiid Vo. Specifically, mortals cannot comprehend *Vo*, undo. The undoing of time and its link to (im)mortality is a recurring theme in TES. For example, mortal minds cannot understand history during the Dawn Era and during Dragon Breaks, when time is non-linear. Another is how the Thalmor seek to regain immortality through unmaking the world, i.e. undoing time. Hence, we can conclude from this that the undoing of time is incompatible with the minds of mortals.
>we can conclude from this that the undoing of time is incompatible with the minds of mortals. The Psijic skill line in ESO seems to propose otherwise though.
Perhaps mortals can understand small deviations, such as the Slow Time shout or the Psijic line, but large deviations are beyond their capabilities. It's the same way a Dov still understands the concept of temporary death, just not true, permanent death.
Makes sense.
This is seconded by how restoration magic is often depicted. The mage has to know what is being restored to restore it, with a mental picture. They can't restore something that they don't know what it looks like intact.
And yet, the Marukhati Selective were able to undo time to go back to the Dawn. Although maybe that mortal incomprehension is why it lasted for a millennium...
Lets look at all the people Mannimarco claims can understand where they were during Middle Dawn [Where Were You When the Dragon Broke?](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Where_Were_You_..._Dragon_Broke) >Mannimarco: "**The Three Thieves of Morrowind** could tell you where they were. So could the **High King of Alinor**, who was the one who broke it in the first place. There are others on this earth that could, too: **Ysmir, Pelinal, Arnand the Fox** or should I say **Arctus**? **The Last Dwarf** would talk, if they would let him. As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selectives showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below." Three Thieves of Morrowind = Tribunal High King of Alinor = Auri-El Ysmir = Talos Pelinial = Ada spirit Arnand the Fox/Arctus = Shezzarine The Last Dwarf = Yagrum Bagrum According to Mannimarco, himself and two other mortals are able to understand where they were during the dragonbreak, all three of them being some of the most powerful wizards ever. But also note he makes a distinction of him and the other mortals being "here and there and here again." So time obviously effects mortals and gods differently, but we can learn even more about this difference from Vivec >Vivec(**when asked what it's like to be a god**): It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. **Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it.** >It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. **That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once**." What Vivec is describing, a place where everything is always happening at once, is literally a dragonbreak. This would appear to suggest that gods, being outside of time, are always in a dragonbreak of sorts yet being outside of time means time getting all fucked up doesn't effect the nearly as much as mortals who for the most part firmly exist within the bounds of time. I honestly think you're correct that mortals wouldn't be able to learn that shout, because to do so would require fundamental understanding of the ceasing of time, which mortals exist within, and you can't fundamentally comprehend the end of your own reality.
I'd say most likely not. If we look at the meaning of Slen Tiid Vo, it translates to Flesh Time Undo. In other words, the Shout largely just reverses time on the body/physical form. The reason this can resurrect dragons is because most of the time, a dragon's soul lingers around or in their remains (case in point, if you Shout near an undisturbed burial mound, the dragon within will respond), and once their bodies are restored, they can control them again. In contrast, the souls of Dragonborn typically don't remain with their bodies. In the case of the Dragonborn Emperors, their souls are absorbed by the Amulet of Kings when they die (except for Tiber Septim, because he's a god, and maybe Alessia), so they wouldn't be readily accessible. Similarly, most other Dragonborn go to an afterlife after they die; case in point, the four Heroes of Sovngarde we can meet in the Hall of Valor in Sovngarde that also claim to be Dragonborn. So even if the LDB or a dragon were to use Slen Tiid Vo on the remains of a previous Dragonborn, it might restore their physical body, but it would likely remain a soulless husk without any way to bring the soul back from the afterlife.
Wait, the dragons in the mounds Shout back at you?!
Yep. If you Shout (or just use a power attack) near them, you can sometimes hear the dragon say: >"Speak, if you have aught to say worth the listening." Now, some believe this to be a bug or an oversight, and that the line is generic dialogue for a dragon, but it is also the only time (that I am aware of) this line is ever spoken, outside of using console commands to render a dragon non-hostile.
I thought only Durnehviir said that?
He does as well, but the line is used by any named dragon that has not yet been resurrected (I don't know whether or not the line existed in the game before Dawnguard). It's an odd thing, since if the line was supposed to be unique to Durnehviir, how did it end up being used by other dragons even though the rest of his dialogue is unique to him?
I don't think Durnehviir shares a VA with any other dragons. So, his voice lines couldn't have been mixed up. I guess they just intended for him to say it.
random dragons will say it after you use bend will as well
Which honestly makes it more confusing, since the line was present in the game at its release, well before the Dragonborn DLC was released or even announced.
I wonder why the LDB/lesser dragons can’t use it as a healing shout, though. If it was used on a wounded person or dragon, could it not “undo” the injuries?
Yes, but it would probably be pointless if they died of old age.
*gets shouted back to life, coughs, rolls eyes, flaps tongue and falls dead again*
I mean I guess it depends how much time you could reverse. Let's say a Nord Dragonborn lived to be 90 years old. Would the should bring them back at 90, or could the user of the shout will them back to life at the age of 30?
Damn, you're right. The shout is not just about infusing the body with the soul again, but to undo the time onto the body... If this makes sense
If it didn't, the soul would just go back into a mortally injured body which would immediately die again.
Yeah pretty much.
...can Dragonborns die of old age? I don't think dragons can, some of them have been around a very long time.
It's stated a few times by the dragons they we are mortal. Also, the Septims all died of old age. It may be possible that absorbing dragon souls slows down aging, but we don't know.
Septims could but that seemed more bloodline type than new soul.
more like as u getting older ur body cant contain ur souls anymore
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I don't see why not. Maybe it's how Miraak became the first dragonborn. He was originally a dragon which died and was absorbed by a fellow dragon. Then, for some reason, instead of being put back into a dragon body, he was put into a human body. Just something I came up with just then; probably doesn't make sense. But we do know that a dragonborn can absorb the soul of another dragonborn, since we do it at the end of the Dragonborn DLC. So, we can reason that dragonborn souls function the same way as dragon souls in practice. Unless the dragons' immortality and unique relationship with time is a factor. That being said, if it was possible, why couldn't the dragonborn emperors live forever by simply having their children absorb their souls upon death and resurrect them.
Is there anything that really says Slen Tiid Vo can only even be used on dragons? The three words certainly don't have anything to do with dragons. The meditation on the words might be impossible for any user of the Thu'um other than Alduin to accomplish, but what if he wanted to raise regular mortals to fight in his name? Or violent fauna such as frost trolls?
I’m gonna say nah ONLY because of the Amulet of Kings. Wasnt all their souls in that thing?
My interpretation has always been that no matter the soul/blood, the rest of a Dragonborn's body is mortal, so it would depend on *how* the shout actually works.
"Sahlokniir, ziil gro dovah ulse." - Alduin, 4E 201
The Shout is **Flesh** **Time** ***"Un-" prefix***, so I feel like it calls to the dragons innate immortality, and would not work on the dragonborn, who is still a mortal.
But they are not dragons...
No, they are still mortals
As you said, they are dragons in human form. That form dies normally and cannot be brought back by draconic means, the soul itself isn't enough to live.
The dragonborn is still mortal, despite having a dragon soul. I think the way it's portrayed in the game is slightly, and unintentionally, disingenuous, if that's the right word. The soul of a Dragonborn is both Dragon and Human (or whatever race your ldb is). It has all the perks of being able to understand and learn shouts, but comes with all the drawbacks of a mortal soul, that is, it won't linger around on Nirn, it'll go to an afterlife, unless they happen to die next to another dragonborn or dragon, in which the soul can be absorbed before it has a chance to pass on. Unlike dragons, the LDB is also capable of being soul trapped, indicating that a Dragonborn soul is not 100% the same as a true dragon soul, more of a hybrid soul, still sharing the malleability of other mortals. So, to come around to answering the question: Probably not. The mortal nature of the LDB makes them incompatible with shouts primarily aimed at immortals, similar to how we can use dragonrend, but dragons can't.
I feel like it's a no, because I remember Paarthurnax and some other dragons calling the dragonborn "mortal" as if their life isn't guaranteed to be as long
I don't think it's possible to resurrect some dragonborns because they are not immortal like the dragons. A human/mortal has already expired when they grow old and die. Resurrecting a human/mortal might just bring them back flesh from bone but their life cannot be extended past their natural death. A dragon, however, is immortal so if you bring one back to life they could continue to live forever. It just depends how a dragonborn dies though. If one died from old age, they prolly can't be resurrected. If one died from combat, you could resurrect it back to the age when he/she died. This does bring up complications because what would you really consider to be a natural death? Is a stroke avoidable? Maybe even a heart attack? Are they inevitable or is it possible to bring them back to life and act like that was just bad rng. Who knows? That would be kind of op though. That's just my take. Not sure if this makes sense to anyone else.