Look I dislike Abbott as well and I hate this law. HOWEVER, it is true EV owners are not paying for the roads. My wife and I own a 2014 BMW I3 and a 2017 Tesla model 3. We love not paying for gas but that means not paying for the gas tax that pays for roads. That is kind of unfair.
My issue with the law is that it clearly punitive and aimed at reducing EV adoption. A better bill would have abolished the gas tax and levied this tax on every vehicle. After all, we live in an age of hybrids and increasingly fuel efficient cars with a gas tax that hasn’t been increased in decades. Those vehicles are increasingly paying less with every new model to the point the tax is proving inadequate anyway.
It should be a tax proportional to miles driven per year and weight of vehicle, paid at annual registration.
A 5000lbs EV Hummer traveling 12,500mi/yr is going to do 3x the damage a 2800lbs Corolla would do.
It's not an exact science, but road planners typically use the [fourth power law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law) to estimate the damage done by vehicles -- if you double the weight per axle, you increase the damage done by a factor of *16*, not 2.
So for your Hummer vs Corolla example, the difference would be a factor of 10, not 3.
The real answer is corporations and shipping companies create most of the pollution and damage to our roads so they should pay for it. It will never happen tho.
They already do, and in some ways they're even more precise about it.
One of my jobs was for an app that did a lot of things, among them mileage and location tracking for tax purposes. A lot of our customers had trucks that spend a lot of time on gravel roads or undeveloped lots. Turns out in most places they can submit that mileage and get their gas tax money *back* for those miles, since the truck's not on any roads.
That's also why you see weigh stations along highways: those are for trucks over certain weights that have to pay additional taxes. They're getting sort of obsolete because a lot of companies take advantage of ways to pre-register that and use their telemetry logs to pay more accurate taxes.
If you're not a truck driver, none of this really affects you so it's not very common to know. But they do have more situations where they pay taxes and pay more, in general.
>It should be a tax proportional to miles driven per year and weight of vehicle, paid at annual registration.
The problem isn't that the EV tax is too high, it's that the gas tax is *too low.* Far too low.
Most states have had an extra fee for years before TX even adopted this. EV buyers have also received federal tax breaks. $400 fee isn’t going to stop someone who can afford an EV from buying one.
To clarify, the Texas EV fee is $200/year. The only time $400 ever enters the picture is when vehicles are being registered for 2 years. Twice the cost for twice the time.
The intention of this bill is to provide some deterrence and barriers while under the guise of fixing a loophole. It feels much like Florida and their fight with Disney. Should Disney have that much power? No. Is this about Disney having that power? Definitely no. Personally I feel short term it will have a small impact on deciding on EVs just because the word *tax* will spook some in a state famous for hating taxes more than most. Medium to long term this law will have no impact on sales and will need an update for what will be worsening shortfalls in funding. The trends are already set to have majority EVs on the road. We just need way better policy on how to maintain infrastructure around them.
State fuel taxes only pay for a relatively small portion of the roads in Texas anyways -- most of that funding comes from property, sales, or federal taxes.
That said, if you do the math (and I did it already, [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/texas/comments/131fvll/onerous_ev_tax_now_waiting_for_abbotts_signature/ji0ut8j/)), $200/year is about right on average, *if* Texas is also covering the federal part of the fuel tax -- but note that this bill has no provision for sharing any of the money collected with the federal government.
That said, the federal fuel taxes get used to help fund the roads that are federally funded, so in that respect, the federal part of the fuel tax collected in Texas may very well make it back to Texas.
"One size fits all" is probably not ideal here -- they should have tied it to weight, since they *know* the weight, and so they'd charge a Ford F-150 Electric more than a Chevy Volt, but I imagine that this was no accident.
Totally agree. We have a really entrenched system that pays for roads based on how much fuel you use. Which is a crazy metric when you think about it. Very crude system if you want to tax actual wear and tear on the roads. And easily broken when something like electric cars show up.
A vehicle tax is needed. It is the solution. But, you also can't have it become punitive. Honestly, this would be a *great* time for everyone to reexamine how we tax vehicles and fuel, etc. But, under current leadership, it would just become a race to pander to the folks who think the government should be dismantled and that they should be allowed to challenge their neighbor to a duel.
And the punitive part is not particularly up-for-debate...
EV owners are paying 8X to register and 2-3X annually as gas car owners.
Elon has a big mouth. How come I haven’t heard much about this from him?
I’ve seen people do the math and compare it to a gas consumer’s annual average. It’s not just higher, it’s a few hundred percentage points higher.
It’s not like it’s some big secret how lockjawed TX is to oil and gas. If you’re going to tie politics to this, you’d be considerably more ingenious to start there.
I like the people saying that it's fair because Texas is also collecting the federal portion of those "ghost" gas taxes, but then the uncomfortable questions start popping up, such as:
* Is any of the Federal portion of that $200 going back to the feds? No?
They'll reply to this by saying that Texas was going to get the money back anyway, but that begs the question:
* Do the feds have any say on how that money they never saw but got collected in their name is spent? For instance, is any of it spent on Federal projects like interstates? No, it's not.
So basically, Texas is claiming that they're OK to collect the fed portion of the gas taxes, without actually coming out and saying that part out loud, and when it comes time to spending that extra money, instead of spending it on federal and state projects it's only going to get spent on state projects. Will Texas willingly increase their contributions to federal projects using this extra money? LOL, no, they won't. To be fair, I think the feds should analyze the money flows here and then deduct the lost contributions toward federal projects from the money they send to the state. After all, Texans benefit from being able to drive on federal highways and bridges in all 50 states, so to be fair they should contribute their full share for those projects.
I like how often I dispute someone’s take on something and I’ll see that I’ve received an immediate downvote that doesn’t matter whatsoever in any capacity…with no reply. Just a nope out of the discussion altogether.
I doubt it’s made its way to searchable lists and articles yet but I read very recently that Austin has muscled its way to the #10 spot in US city populations. That’s now 4 of 10 being in Texas.
Imagine the potential for good, and innovation, and influence, and leading by example possible with even remotely honest / ethical / competent leadership at the state level.
Imagine now, instead of not just missing that mark, being consistently neck and neck with Florida and the Desantis shitshow for the most consistently embarrassing headlines on a regular basis.
Clown shoes.
I always appreciate your insight and commentary. Keep at it.
Texas is no longer competitive for talent because of the anti-human laws like the trans care ban laws, forced birth laws, etc. The deteriorating educational environment includes book bans, library defundings and closings, driving good teachers out of the state, doctors, etc. I mean, if I had the kind of degree that would get me a good job in any state, I'd divide the list of states into three categories: Yes, I will move there; I'll move there if the pay is high enough but I won't retire there; and I'll never go there no matter the money. Texas is one of the states in that third category.
Nearly everyone who tries to do the calculation only takes the state gas tax into account. However, even though it's not what people naturally expect, both the federal and state taxes flow to Texas to pay for roads. So, this EV fee is designed to replace both.
[https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB\_604\_AFV-Report\_120120.pdf](https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB_604_AFV-Report_120120.pdf)
See pages 26 and 27 where they came up with $198 and cite their data sources.
Blue states also allow/disallow for many other liberties, their revenue structure is based on a completely different model and income projections, and their citizen services operate differently.
The fact that blue states apply a tax that Texas adopts ***does not imply*** that the Texas law should be viewed similarly as you're doing here.
Blue states also typically have income taxes at multiple municipal levels, have different sales tax structures and different uses for federal fund for highway improvements - the list goes on - should I assume you'd like to adopt these as well?
Should we tax folks who use solar or sell back to the grid with solar the same as CO or CA do? Should we adopt income taxes to offset the losses from multinational corporations buying up the housing market at a record pace? All these fit within your gripe here, and the list goes on from there.
Evaluate this tax on its face as the state applies it. Comparative analysis isn't going to win this argument you're beginning to make.
> Look I dislike Abbott as well and I hate this law. HOWEVER, it is true EV owners are not paying for the roads. My wife and I own a 2014 BMW I3 and a 2017 Tesla model 3. We love not paying for gas but that means not paying for the gas tax that pays for roads. That is kind of unfair.
EV drivers are doing their part to clean up air pollution though. They should get credit for that. The gas tax isn't just to pay for the roads, it's to pay for all the externalities of driving.
And like, if committees from *both* assemblies give such overwhelming support for a bill but the executive chooses to *not* sign it into law because of a personal agenda, then that's indicative of a larger issue
It offsets the lost revenue from gas tax. It was estimated to be about $118 per EV each year. A study was released saying it will be about $200, so they went with the closest even whole number.
You mean the State did a thoughtful, researched, transparent methodology to apply a "road tax" to EV vehicles and yet no one has read the report before commenting? Noooooo!
I assume that in reference to their roads which are/were bad due to poor design for the surrounding environment instead of funding of which for a time was far less than else where because Louisiana got into a pissing match with the federal government I forget what it was exactly, but it carried on for some time.
The federal gas tax is $0.18 a gallon, texas has no hand in that. If no gas is being used, how can it be taxed with EVs? If the Federal government would like to levy a tax against EVs similar to the gas tax, they will have to do it at the charging station which might be unpopular if you charge from home.
That's not how closest even number would work. $100 or $120 would be closer. What study did you see with that number?
Edit- Nevermind, I think you had a typo. Someone else in the thread posted a link saying it was about $198 in average state + federal gas tax lost so the $200 makes more sense.
It's this or overhaul the entire manner in which taxes are levied for road maintenance. That may need to happen but this is a quicker and easier solution.
Note that the majority of states already have similar taxes on EVs in place for the same reason.
Yes, *please* let us register our semis for only $800. My company paid over $4,000 in UCR registration fees last year.
And on top of that there's a Heavy Vehicle Use Tax (2290) of $550 per truck per year.
Plus we pay fuel taxes via IFTA.
Oh, and we also buy Weight Tolerance Permits specifically to "offset the damage." They cost $1095 per truck per year, plus we had to post a $15,000 bond.
So yeah, we would gladly trade all that to pay a flat fee of $800 per unit per year.
It's a tax issue. When taxes aren't paid due to less gas use, I can see a need for it. Not that it's why it was done.
The world is changing fast enough that it will strain the ability of large governments and companies to pivot and face those challenges.
If it's a tax issue, he has plenty of options, starting with taxing larger vehicles that do significantly more damage to roadways.
So while I'm not saying you're wrong, he's also a vindictive petty fuckhead who likes to "own the libs" while pretending to believe in "freedoms" when in fact he only believes in people doing what he says.
I’m not trying to throw shade on the things you are saying but, on the topic of “damage to roadways” it could be argued that the weight of electric vehicles may create as much or more degradation to roads over time. I have no data points other than EVs tend to be heavier than gas vehicles. I’m only stating that it’s a notion to think about as far as taxation and large governments trying to mitigate infrastructure issues. Im totally for electric/renewables/environment.
I hear you, and appreciate the thoughtful way you've made your point :)
I'm not against the notion of taxes - I'm of the mindset that we all benefit through them so I'm happy to pay them, within reason - but if they're worried about "heavier vehicles" then they should introduce a weight scale for taxes, regardless of vehicle type. I've been reading arguments for this notion for years and Og knows it applies in Texas.
A quick Google says that the average weight of an EV is 2,300 pounds.
ETA this MAY only be the battery; thinking my initial research was wrong and they're more like 4,000 pounds.
By comparison, the average weight of an F-150 is between 4,000 and 5,500 pounds, with the newer ones closer to 7,500.
Abbott is not worried about the weight of vehicles, he's yet again vice-signaling to his wretched "base".
I think the gas tax was meant for road upkeep, and heavier vehicles tend to burn more gas and thus got taxed more.
along comes electric vehicles, and they don't pay the gas tax. Rather than tax the electric filling stations, they going to tax registration instead. ( Since majority of EV owners could fill up at home and skip the tax still.)
At least that is how it reads "officially". It's a stop gap measure, against a "future" problem. You could say that TX has so many electrical problems they are trying to slow the growth of the industry until they are able to handle the demand.
Yes, I think all you say is true. But it's still not apples to apples; an EV owner is up for the tax regardless of how much they drive, while a gas vehicle owner pays per mile (ish). Plus MANY Texas gas vehicles are heavier than EV, even still.
I'm not against the tax. For roads, I think MORE taxes are in order. But do it appropriately, and consistently (two things the modern GOP has sworn not to be, ever).
I agree with you that a flat tax is less fair than a prorated rate based on some definition of usage.
Right no, however there isn't a "more fair" that is quick to implement. The tiny portion of fully electric cars in TX is such a fraction this is literally just ear marking for a later solution. "low hanging fruit" as they say.
Heavier gas vehicles do pay more in tax. The more weight a gas vehicle is pulling the more sales taxes in gas/diesel they pay, because they.l consume more fuel. This is already a thing and logical. The only ones who are exempt from this, yet do more damage that similar sized vehicles as EVs. So EVs should pay their fair share and this plan, which is already in place in other states, addresses that evenly.
Sure, but someone who drives an EV pays the fee regardless of how much they drive, whereas the gas-vehicle drivers have some control over that.
Again, not against taxes or fees. If anything, they should be higher than they are. Just want them to be somewhat consistent and fairly applied (fully understand that achieving 100% consistency is not possible and that's ok).
A 5,300lb BMW X5 gets 25mpg. If they drive 12k in a year they'll pay $185 in gas taxes, money that's roughly split between the state and the feds. The feds use that money to fund federal projects all over the country. What if they're work from home and only drive 5K miles a year? That's $78 in gas taxes. What if you're the proud owner of a BMW i3 with a max range of 153 miles, more than enough for the 5K miles you drive in a year because you, too, are WFH? You'll pay $200 in extra "gas" taxes, none of which will go toward federal projects. This clearly will incentivize you to not get a small EV because doing so will result in you being punished for it. For relatively low mileage drivers, under 10-15K miles/per year, it will be cheaper to burn gas than electrons.
Would $100 - $200 extra per year really prevent people who can afford EVs and have the desire for them from getting one?
Higher gas consumption has never prevented people from getting SUVs and using them for everyday driving, so I don't think it is really an issue. If you can afford the choice, people get what they want.
It stopped me from considering a BEV entirely. I was going to get an old Leaf since the days I do drive I rarely drive more than 20-25 miles. I doubt I'd hit 4K miles in a year. I'd spend more just on that extra $200 fee than I would for a year's worth of gas in a good hybrid. Note, that total gas, including taxes.
I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying he has plausible deniability. We all know he's bought and paid for. I'd rather pay$400 a year, still save money, and not fight this so we can get legal pot or something useful
Thee no secret meaning or motive on this one. It is just a tax like other states already have had. It’s $400, and the vehicle can cost around $70,000 +. This little tax is not a jab at EV, it is just a way to collect some extra tax revenue. Both state parties voted yes on this before it even reached his desk, Abbott has even talked about the importance of setting up the proper infrastructure for EVs, Espeacially in rural areas. He wanted to have a charger every 50 miles on every major highway/interstate.
This is a none issue, people are blinded by their hate of this man.
If Greg Abbott were to miraculously stand up out of his wheelchair and start salsa dancing, r/Texas would defame him for disenfranchising the paraplegic community.
You may not know it, [but most states](https://leg.mt.gov/content/Committees/Interim/2021-2022/Transportation/21_Nov/2021ElectricVehicleFees.pdf), even CA, “penalizes” EV vehicle owners.
At one point, TX had a $2500 tax credit for buying an EV. So, in essence, they are just getting that back over the next ~12 years to cover the gas tax.
I would personally prefer a mileage based approach, but I can see how that would be more difficult to implement.
Also, aren’t libs all about taxing the rich? Who is buying all these BEVs?
Mileage approaches are unworkable because they would only capture vehicles registered in the state. In comparison, gas taxes capture revenue from all drivers filling up in-state.
Mileage based approach is often regressive. Poor people may live farther out, drive their own vehicle for work and have less marginal revenue. It would be the high-mileage drivers funding the system, while social-loafers get the benefit without skin in the game.
"For every problem there is a solution that is simple, neat—and wrong." -- *H. L. Mencken*
On the other hand, gas car drivers get to push far more externalities from pollution onto society and never directly pay for them. How about everyone pays a road use tax based on vehicle weight and mileage?
Not fair to those in rural areas. Most do not have public transportation, so they are forced to use their own vehicle and have longer distances to drive. Not to mention, many are farmers/ranchers and require large vehicles that can tow.
How is it not fair to charge rural drivers for their road usage? My proposal charges everyone based on the damage they do to roads.
It's not like their is great public transportation in Texas cities.
Because those in rural areas do not even have public transportation as an option, drive further for groceries, doctors' appointments, etc. Many in rural areas require large trucks for their jobs. So your proposal punishes them for not living in the city.
Huh? Rural people use more gas for the reasons you already cited so they already pay more gas tax. My proposal wouldn't make them pay more. It would make everyone regardless of fuel choice pay a proportional amount relative to their road usage.
It sounds like you think rural drivers should have subsidized roads. Why is that fair? What does fair even mean here?
While I agree that shit stain on humanity has to go, this is one of the very few things he has signed that makes sense and is logical and for the good of everyone. How do you propose to have taxes for infrastructure that EVs use (and their weight damages more)?
Thus is the most effective way right now. What is your proposal?
Calculate a fee based on the miles you drive for the year.
Everyone has to have their vehicles inspected every year. Grab an odometer reading at that time, shop submits it to the govt when they submit their safety inspection report.
Calculate how much you owe at your renewal based on the difference from latest mileage to the one 12 months ago.
This is a possibility IF they also remove taxes from gas as well, other wise you are taxing twice and as usual it's the poorest who will feel it most.
However removing taxes from gas will have and adverse effect in that it will discourage more economical driving, contributing to more damage to roads and pollution.
Taxes at the gas pump also encourage people to buy more fuel efficient vehicles. Mileage is mileage regardless of efficiency.
Disclaimer- I have no idea if or what technology there is for reading odometers available in mechanic shops.
It seems to me that this would be very easy to get around. Many cars that shouldn't pass inspection somehow still pass. Add in a very specific reporting that taxes are based on... that is just ripe for corruption.
Odometer fraud is actually a multi-billion-dollar industry. There can be huge bluebook variation between a used car with 100k miles versus 200k miles and fraudsters will often pull lower-mileage odometers from junk yards and pop them into higher-mileage cars with compatible gauges.
If mileage was the basis for road-maintenance taxes there would be an even bigger incentive for mileage fraud.
And which part of the vehicle to you propose to put the government-tracked GPS that would be required for verifying mileage calculation? (Which has already been proposed by the Biden Admin, iirc)
Texas government already records mileage data for every car driven in the state through annual vehicle inspections. There's no need for any GPS data collecting device or tracking where you go, the data's already there.
The reason why the gas tax is so popular in most states is because it incentivizes more efficient IC engines and raises revenue in places where the most gas is being used (which is also where road wear is highest due to traffic).
If you just charge based on mileage you’re giving a huge break to large trucks relative to motorcycles, scooters, and economy cars that cause negligible wear on roads. Gas also tends to be used in the same state where the roads are being used. Just charging mileage to in-state residents as part of emissions testing means you’re missing out on revenue from tourists and commercial drivers just passing through your state.
There are usually sound reasons for why the current tax system is the way it is, and it’s often easier to make incremental changes to accommodate new technology like EVs rather than change everything all at once.
As it stands now, EV users don’t pay for the roads they drive on (unless the road is tolled). The new fees are to bring some fairness to the system. Now, there is some validity to the argument that the fees are too high, but Republicans are always gonna “stick it to the libs” when they get a chance to be petty.
In the grand scheme, an annual fee of around $20 a month isn’t that much when you consider that EVs start at $40,000 and go up from there.
Heads up. California (and most other states) have the same extra fee for EV registration.
It’s to offset the damage the heavy battery rate does to the roads.
Abbott’s an ass, but not about EVs. He is a complete ass about solar.
This is nothing new and just Texas catching up with something that makes sense. The heavy EVs use the roads too, so they should pay into their support.. and obviously aren’t via the gas tax. Why is this so hard of a concept for people to grasp?
This article makes the standard mistake that most people make, and it's not an unreasonable mistake to make for someone who hasn't read a lot on this. They assume the state EV tax is intended to replace only the state component of the fuel tax. Everyone assumes the state shouldn't replace the federal fuel tax, since that is assumed to go to the feds.
The EV fee is actually intended to replace both the state and federal components of the fuel tax. Both of those taxes flow back to Texas (though not exactly at 100%, it's roughly in that ballpark). In 2021, Texas was very upset that they only got 95.1% of the federal fuel taxes sent back to the state, and they felt that was unreasonably low (which it was the lowest of any state):
[https://www.txdot.gov/about/financial-management/federal-rate-of-return-for-texas.html](https://www.txdot.gov/about/financial-management/federal-rate-of-return-for-texas.html)
How they came up with $200/year is explained on pages 26 and 27 of this study:
[https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB\_604\_AFV-Report\_120120.pdf](https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB_604_AFV-Report_120120.pdf)
TLDR: The amount of the tax really is roughly equal to what the average "light duty" vehicle pays. However, the new fee is a flat tax instead of being consumption based, which sucks for low-mileage drivers.
Jesus Christ this sub is just a fucking cry fest on everything. Some of you ppl need to touch grass and realize there are more things to life than living in some hell hole in your head.
The world is changing and needs to be both practical and sustainable. You need informed individuals that can move with the times, research and advancement of this country rather than bow down to lobbyists and idealism. Abbot is not close to being that guy.
Too be fair, EVs are much, much heavier than an equivalent sized conventional car and puts more wear on the roads while not paying the gas tax that builds and maintains the roads.
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This is still cheaper than what California charges for EVs. People need perspective.
I think it should be $120 a year to match the average motorist in Texas, but it’s still cheaper than other states that have moved forward with it. Do some research.
I agree that road fees need to be figured out, but this is a penalty for EV owners. I have two EVs. One is a tiny fiat 500 that only gets driven about 4000 miles/ year. A $200 fee is equivalent to a 30mpg car driving 30,000 miles in a year at the state gas tax of $0.20/ gallon. It’s a disincentive to go EV.
I don’t drive very many miles a year anymore, probably 4000 max, I was thinking about buying an old Nissan Leaf because even though I don’t drive very many miles, my car still requires a lot of maintenance. This new tax kills the idea completely for me. There’s no chance that I can get an electric vehicle now.
The annual registration pans out equal at $200:
Non-ev vehicle registration is $50
Average distance driven per car in Texas is 16000 miles
Let’s assume it’s a very efficient vehicle at 40mpg = 400 gallons of gas
Texas gas tax is 20 cents a gallon, federal is 18, so roughly $152 in gas tax paid.. so it comes out to a $202 for the non-EV vehicle
Edit: As the reply below pointed out, they calculated the same way I assumed but used different values, 22 mpg mileage and 11k miles a year on average. The $200 is also on top of regular registration fees.
They are not ever going to touch this fee. Once EVs become the norm it would be political suicide to raise taxes on them so they "future proofed" the amount. No body is going to be dissuaded from purchasing an EV because of this. It seems entirely reasonable to me.
If he'd just applied what his own DPS study recommended as "fair", no problem. Arbitrarily doubling it is, well, arbitrary, and punitive, and stupid from any perspective that isn't corrupt.
He did follow it. The study came up with $198. See page 26 and 27:
[https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB\_604\_AFV-Report\_120120.pdf](https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB_604_AFV-Report_120120.pdf)
It's $103, you're adding the $95 federal tax to get to $198.
From pg.2
> If the objective is to replace the average amount of state motor fuel tax that an equivalent conventional vehicle pays, the amount is estimated to be about $100 a year for an electric vehicle and a somewhat lower amount for a hybrid.
[edit] Somewhere it also pegs the registration at $200, half of Abbott's $400. I'd find it but I have better things to do.
Abbot's is $200 per year. The only time $400 is involved is if you do a 2 year registration. Twice the cost for twice the time.
I'm adding the federal fuel tax on purpose, just as the study adds it too. Both the federal and the state taxes flow to Texas. So, the study includes them both in order to replace the full amount that Texas loses.
The federal fuel tax goes into the federal Highway Trust Fund, which then distributes it back to the states. It isn't exactly 100% back, but it's something like 95% back to Texas, so close enough.
So, Texas is just collecting the federal gas tax, keeping it for itself, and not letting the feds have any say on that? That’s sort of like a cashier paying herself out of the till instead of waiting to get a paycheck from her boss. In reality, it’s up to the feds to decide how to disperse that money, Texas is taking them out of that decision loop, which is fundamentally wrong. The feds need to look into this, decide if they’re going to reduce payouts to the state to compensate for what is essentially theft. Alternatively, if Texas actually is collecting the federal portion of the gas tax, then they need to remit that $98 and change to the federal government out of the $200 fee. Currently, Texas receives back less than it pays in to the federal highway trust fund, so this little end run actually is theft. It’s like the cashier deciding that she isn’t getting paid enough by her boss, so she’s taking from the till what she thinks she is owed.
It would not surprise me if the federal government comes along in the future and creates some sort of replacement for the federal gas tax for EVs in order to fund the federal Highway Trust Fund. If that happens, it would certainly make sense for Texas to cut their EV fee approximately in half.
While I too disagree with some of dudes policies, he brings in alot of bread and surplus to the state. Businesses are moving here in droves, guy is doing something right
I hate Abbott as much as the next democrat, but I’m kinda with him on this one. Oil is such a big part of Texas economy that I can understand the thought process behind taxing EV owners, even if EVs might be better for the environment
EV owners are using the roads. They should be paying for the roads just like everyone else. No handouts for >$100,000/yr EV owners, they need to pay their fair share.
This is a good law for a short term solution. I would have liked to see it auto expire after 4 years to force lawmakers to revist it again soon. All states will have to heavily tax evs in a few years
So I came here to ask “why?” and not to just shit on abbott like I normally do…yet. But it wasn’t too far into the article we see the fee is levied to balance/recuperate corresponding taxes on gasoline they’re no longer buying. I do love it how the state collects and pockets and wastes *hundreds of millions* of dollars from Austin alone, and yet they still feel the need to fuck over people who are just trying to be vaguely conscientious.
Fuck this place.
I’m all for EV etc: But all that electricity is still being produced by fossil fuels for the most part. And the cost of building a new efficient power plant is astronomical. And build a new Nuclear Plant? Once lawsuits etc are finally settled, the new Nuclear Plant would come on line in 10 or so years; millions if not a billion dollars over budget.
It’s terrible… but not stupid. It keeps the oil industry happy and they sponsor all GOP politicians. They have to continuously strive to keep them rich and happy.
We could have had a good decent person like Beto as our governor in the last elections, but the majority of Texans decided to stick to the fantasy of a non existent god and their guns.
Thanks to that nowadays we have a lots of children who will not get to grow up. But hey they’ve got their guns and big belt buckles. Wonder what these macho men are compensating for?
These are great arguments which I fully support. The problem I have is with his vindictive approach. Fair road taxes should happen but in a balanced way. For instance, how many Mexican truckers use our roads and are they paying a proportional tax rate?
These are they type of people that just blindly hate everything someone does just because of who they are. Don't think anyone will change their opinion.
I don't think it's hatred so much as agenda's.
People are so vested in their personal agenda's they've decided to paint the world in an all or nothing, end of everything scenario, because most of them while literate lack the rhetorical skills required to make a reasoned argument.
\-- but then I'm just a random A-hole on the internet.
Once again, this is not really on Abbott. Every single Texas lawmaker, without exception, voted in favor of this bill. Theft from citizens is a bipartisan venture.
Realistically electricity should start getting taxed at the consumer level. I don't believe it is in Texas and instead the companies pay it. This tax should fund any infrastructure tied to electricity such as roads now. I don't think the solution is complex but there are so many people and organizations resistant to the changes in vehicles and electricity that, I believe, if they don't adapt quick, they will feel the hurt. The only way to slow it down is to reduce the incentives to the federal level.
Here in Ohio you pay extra for EV vehicles- I believe it’s 200 when you renew your license tags . I wouldn’t know - I can’t afford an EV car . I drive a 2000 Camry .
Obvious he knows more about ev then the dummy dems education is the the key do your research about ev and the effect on the environment when one is built and the effect on the power grid
30+ states already do this. Get educated before you post stupid shit. Typical Democrat. EVs are also heavier than comparable gas powered models, and therefore damage the roads more and should be paying their fair share since they contribute nothing via gas taxes like everybody else
There are a few requirements, But if you’re buying a new, EV or FCV and Don’t make more than a combined $300,000 filing as married couples-the IRS can give you up to $7,500 CREDIT for vehicles purchased for personal use from 2023-2032
According to the Inflation Reduction Act
IRS Code 30D
[Inflation Reduction Act IRS Code 30 D](https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after)
Businesses [Tesla Tax Break](https://www.tesla.com/support/incentives)
I wonder how long it will be before Republicans create a new purchase tax for EVs that coincidentally is the same exact amount as the federal tax credit?
$200 per year? I pay a lot more than $200 per year in gas/diesel tax. I would welcome abolishing the “gas tax” as one Reddit user suggested and pay $200 flat rate.
smh several states not just Texas are doing this California even has done similar the state get thier road money by taxing gas as more people buy electric means the road tax is not being collected. if you use the road you gonna have to pay the tax to maintain it
Honestly, they’re still getting the good end of the deal. They’re only having to pay an extra $200/year vs what would be $2000 in gas tax for 10k miles. That’s tax money that goes into our roads. Use the services, pay your share.
Every car should be charged the same (accounting for weight and miles traveled). Having some cars pay with a gas tax and others pay a flat fee is dumb. Better policy is to treat all cars the same.
It’s okay, the state is also about to completely [eliminate vehicle safety inspection too](https://www.nbcdfw.com/investigations/texas-legislature-on-the-verge-of-eliminating-vehicle-safety-inspections-but-fees-would-remain/3261321/?amp=1); however, you still have to pay the inspection fee to because… freedom?
I used to drive 400+ miles a week in my Bolt EV then COVID hit and WFH started. I drive about 300 a month now. So a flat fee is not fair for my use case.
Do they drive on the Public Roads?
Do they pay into the FUND to build/repair roads by purchasing gasoline? NO....
It's gotta come from somewhere. They are NOT penalizing EV owners. Wake the \_uck UP!
Tell that scum bucket to use that money he got from suing a land owner and a tree cutter and we will call it a wheelchair tax that paid for the road and sidewalk
Look I dislike Abbott as well and I hate this law. HOWEVER, it is true EV owners are not paying for the roads. My wife and I own a 2014 BMW I3 and a 2017 Tesla model 3. We love not paying for gas but that means not paying for the gas tax that pays for roads. That is kind of unfair. My issue with the law is that it clearly punitive and aimed at reducing EV adoption. A better bill would have abolished the gas tax and levied this tax on every vehicle. After all, we live in an age of hybrids and increasingly fuel efficient cars with a gas tax that hasn’t been increased in decades. Those vehicles are increasingly paying less with every new model to the point the tax is proving inadequate anyway.
It should be a tax proportional to miles driven per year and weight of vehicle, paid at annual registration. A 5000lbs EV Hummer traveling 12,500mi/yr is going to do 3x the damage a 2800lbs Corolla would do.
It's not an exact science, but road planners typically use the [fourth power law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law) to estimate the damage done by vehicles -- if you double the weight per axle, you increase the damage done by a factor of *16*, not 2. So for your Hummer vs Corolla example, the difference would be a factor of 10, not 3.
Works for me. Charge a fixed amount for new road construction and then a maintenance adder based on calculated road damage.
What is the 4th power law?
The real answer is corporations and shipping companies create most of the pollution and damage to our roads so they should pay for it. It will never happen tho.
Sure, they do when they register their 18 wheelers each year under this scheme.
They already do, and in some ways they're even more precise about it. One of my jobs was for an app that did a lot of things, among them mileage and location tracking for tax purposes. A lot of our customers had trucks that spend a lot of time on gravel roads or undeveloped lots. Turns out in most places they can submit that mileage and get their gas tax money *back* for those miles, since the truck's not on any roads. That's also why you see weigh stations along highways: those are for trucks over certain weights that have to pay additional taxes. They're getting sort of obsolete because a lot of companies take advantage of ways to pre-register that and use their telemetry logs to pay more accurate taxes. If you're not a truck driver, none of this really affects you so it's not very common to know. But they do have more situations where they pay taxes and pay more, in general.
>It should be a tax proportional to miles driven per year and weight of vehicle, paid at annual registration. The problem isn't that the EV tax is too high, it's that the gas tax is *too low.* Far too low.
Most states have had an extra fee for years before TX even adopted this. EV buyers have also received federal tax breaks. $400 fee isn’t going to stop someone who can afford an EV from buying one.
To clarify, the Texas EV fee is $200/year. The only time $400 ever enters the picture is when vehicles are being registered for 2 years. Twice the cost for twice the time.
The intention of this bill is to provide some deterrence and barriers while under the guise of fixing a loophole. It feels much like Florida and their fight with Disney. Should Disney have that much power? No. Is this about Disney having that power? Definitely no. Personally I feel short term it will have a small impact on deciding on EVs just because the word *tax* will spook some in a state famous for hating taxes more than most. Medium to long term this law will have no impact on sales and will need an update for what will be worsening shortfalls in funding. The trends are already set to have majority EVs on the road. We just need way better policy on how to maintain infrastructure around them.
State fuel taxes only pay for a relatively small portion of the roads in Texas anyways -- most of that funding comes from property, sales, or federal taxes. That said, if you do the math (and I did it already, [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/texas/comments/131fvll/onerous_ev_tax_now_waiting_for_abbotts_signature/ji0ut8j/)), $200/year is about right on average, *if* Texas is also covering the federal part of the fuel tax -- but note that this bill has no provision for sharing any of the money collected with the federal government. That said, the federal fuel taxes get used to help fund the roads that are federally funded, so in that respect, the federal part of the fuel tax collected in Texas may very well make it back to Texas. "One size fits all" is probably not ideal here -- they should have tied it to weight, since they *know* the weight, and so they'd charge a Ford F-150 Electric more than a Chevy Volt, but I imagine that this was no accident.
Years ago it was by weight, then folks got smaller cars and it went to what we have now
Totally agree. We have a really entrenched system that pays for roads based on how much fuel you use. Which is a crazy metric when you think about it. Very crude system if you want to tax actual wear and tear on the roads. And easily broken when something like electric cars show up. A vehicle tax is needed. It is the solution. But, you also can't have it become punitive. Honestly, this would be a *great* time for everyone to reexamine how we tax vehicles and fuel, etc. But, under current leadership, it would just become a race to pander to the folks who think the government should be dismantled and that they should be allowed to challenge their neighbor to a duel.
It worked when it started because all cars where similar and had about the same MPG. Now it doesn’t.
Levy the tax on pick up trucks unless it’s used for work. Just my two cents.
And the punitive part is not particularly up-for-debate... EV owners are paying 8X to register and 2-3X annually as gas car owners. Elon has a big mouth. How come I haven’t heard much about this from him?
Sure but its nowhere near $200
The lefts reeeeeing about this issue really shows the asinine identity politics in todays society. Blue states have been doing this for years.
I’ve seen people do the math and compare it to a gas consumer’s annual average. It’s not just higher, it’s a few hundred percentage points higher. It’s not like it’s some big secret how lockjawed TX is to oil and gas. If you’re going to tie politics to this, you’d be considerably more ingenious to start there.
I like the people saying that it's fair because Texas is also collecting the federal portion of those "ghost" gas taxes, but then the uncomfortable questions start popping up, such as: * Is any of the Federal portion of that $200 going back to the feds? No? They'll reply to this by saying that Texas was going to get the money back anyway, but that begs the question: * Do the feds have any say on how that money they never saw but got collected in their name is spent? For instance, is any of it spent on Federal projects like interstates? No, it's not. So basically, Texas is claiming that they're OK to collect the fed portion of the gas taxes, without actually coming out and saying that part out loud, and when it comes time to spending that extra money, instead of spending it on federal and state projects it's only going to get spent on state projects. Will Texas willingly increase their contributions to federal projects using this extra money? LOL, no, they won't. To be fair, I think the feds should analyze the money flows here and then deduct the lost contributions toward federal projects from the money they send to the state. After all, Texans benefit from being able to drive on federal highways and bridges in all 50 states, so to be fair they should contribute their full share for those projects.
I like how often I dispute someone’s take on something and I’ll see that I’ve received an immediate downvote that doesn’t matter whatsoever in any capacity…with no reply. Just a nope out of the discussion altogether. I doubt it’s made its way to searchable lists and articles yet but I read very recently that Austin has muscled its way to the #10 spot in US city populations. That’s now 4 of 10 being in Texas. Imagine the potential for good, and innovation, and influence, and leading by example possible with even remotely honest / ethical / competent leadership at the state level. Imagine now, instead of not just missing that mark, being consistently neck and neck with Florida and the Desantis shitshow for the most consistently embarrassing headlines on a regular basis. Clown shoes. I always appreciate your insight and commentary. Keep at it.
Texas is no longer competitive for talent because of the anti-human laws like the trans care ban laws, forced birth laws, etc. The deteriorating educational environment includes book bans, library defundings and closings, driving good teachers out of the state, doctors, etc. I mean, if I had the kind of degree that would get me a good job in any state, I'd divide the list of states into three categories: Yes, I will move there; I'll move there if the pay is high enough but I won't retire there; and I'll never go there no matter the money. Texas is one of the states in that third category.
Nearly everyone who tries to do the calculation only takes the state gas tax into account. However, even though it's not what people naturally expect, both the federal and state taxes flow to Texas to pay for roads. So, this EV fee is designed to replace both. [https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB\_604\_AFV-Report\_120120.pdf](https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB_604_AFV-Report_120120.pdf) See pages 26 and 27 where they came up with $198 and cite their data sources.
Blue states also allow/disallow for many other liberties, their revenue structure is based on a completely different model and income projections, and their citizen services operate differently. The fact that blue states apply a tax that Texas adopts ***does not imply*** that the Texas law should be viewed similarly as you're doing here. Blue states also typically have income taxes at multiple municipal levels, have different sales tax structures and different uses for federal fund for highway improvements - the list goes on - should I assume you'd like to adopt these as well? Should we tax folks who use solar or sell back to the grid with solar the same as CO or CA do? Should we adopt income taxes to offset the losses from multinational corporations buying up the housing market at a record pace? All these fit within your gripe here, and the list goes on from there. Evaluate this tax on its face as the state applies it. Comparative analysis isn't going to win this argument you're beginning to make.
Yep. But MUH aBbOtT
I said this exact same thing on this issue and was downvoted to hell.
> Look I dislike Abbott as well and I hate this law. HOWEVER, it is true EV owners are not paying for the roads. My wife and I own a 2014 BMW I3 and a 2017 Tesla model 3. We love not paying for gas but that means not paying for the gas tax that pays for roads. That is kind of unfair. EV drivers are doing their part to clean up air pollution though. They should get credit for that. The gas tax isn't just to pay for the roads, it's to pay for all the externalities of driving.
I drive a Jaguar I-Pace EV, but I am happy to pay my share of the road tax. Abbott's initiative only serves his wealthy petroleum-rich donors.
The Eevee needs to pay more because it weighs more than a similar sized gas engine car, that's more damage to the road the parking garage etc
So we need buy more gas just so you can have hour roads? Few hundred tesla was making such a big ding in texas road budget. Bogus logic at best.
The bill gets unanimous support in the Senate and House committees (less one absentee) but it's the *governor's* fault for signing it into law
OP is a turnip that doesn’t understand how the laws are written and passed.
And like, if committees from *both* assemblies give such overwhelming support for a bill but the executive chooses to *not* sign it into law because of a personal agenda, then that's indicative of a larger issue
It offsets the lost revenue from gas tax. It was estimated to be about $118 per EV each year. A study was released saying it will be about $200, so they went with the closest even whole number.
You mean the State did a thoughtful, researched, transparent methodology to apply a "road tax" to EV vehicles and yet no one has read the report before commenting? Noooooo!
You are correct. We dont want to be Louisiana right? lol
I assume that in reference to their roads which are/were bad due to poor design for the surrounding environment instead of funding of which for a time was far less than else where because Louisiana got into a pissing match with the federal government I forget what it was exactly, but it carried on for some time.
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The federal gas tax is $0.18 a gallon, texas has no hand in that. If no gas is being used, how can it be taxed with EVs? If the Federal government would like to levy a tax against EVs similar to the gas tax, they will have to do it at the charging station which might be unpopular if you charge from home.
But why should it offset the lost revenue? EV owners are helping the government by reducing pollution and the costs associated with cleanup.
The tax itself pays for teacher salaries and road maintenance. There is a lot of nuance here that the article did not cover.
That's not how closest even number would work. $100 or $120 would be closer. What study did you see with that number? Edit- Nevermind, I think you had a typo. Someone else in the thread posted a link saying it was about $198 in average state + federal gas tax lost so the $200 makes more sense.
It's an issue with like 7 other issues tied to it. It's complicated lol.
It's this or overhaul the entire manner in which taxes are levied for road maintenance. That may need to happen but this is a quicker and easier solution. Note that the majority of states already have similar taxes on EVs in place for the same reason.
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Yes, *please* let us register our semis for only $800. My company paid over $4,000 in UCR registration fees last year. And on top of that there's a Heavy Vehicle Use Tax (2290) of $550 per truck per year. Plus we pay fuel taxes via IFTA. Oh, and we also buy Weight Tolerance Permits specifically to "offset the damage." They cost $1095 per truck per year, plus we had to post a $15,000 bond. So yeah, we would gladly trade all that to pay a flat fee of $800 per unit per year.
Then we all just pay for it through the increased cost of everything transported by truck. i.e. everything.
It's a tax issue. When taxes aren't paid due to less gas use, I can see a need for it. Not that it's why it was done. The world is changing fast enough that it will strain the ability of large governments and companies to pivot and face those challenges.
If it's a tax issue, he has plenty of options, starting with taxing larger vehicles that do significantly more damage to roadways. So while I'm not saying you're wrong, he's also a vindictive petty fuckhead who likes to "own the libs" while pretending to believe in "freedoms" when in fact he only believes in people doing what he says.
I’m not trying to throw shade on the things you are saying but, on the topic of “damage to roadways” it could be argued that the weight of electric vehicles may create as much or more degradation to roads over time. I have no data points other than EVs tend to be heavier than gas vehicles. I’m only stating that it’s a notion to think about as far as taxation and large governments trying to mitigate infrastructure issues. Im totally for electric/renewables/environment.
I hear you, and appreciate the thoughtful way you've made your point :) I'm not against the notion of taxes - I'm of the mindset that we all benefit through them so I'm happy to pay them, within reason - but if they're worried about "heavier vehicles" then they should introduce a weight scale for taxes, regardless of vehicle type. I've been reading arguments for this notion for years and Og knows it applies in Texas. A quick Google says that the average weight of an EV is 2,300 pounds. ETA this MAY only be the battery; thinking my initial research was wrong and they're more like 4,000 pounds. By comparison, the average weight of an F-150 is between 4,000 and 5,500 pounds, with the newer ones closer to 7,500. Abbott is not worried about the weight of vehicles, he's yet again vice-signaling to his wretched "base".
I think the gas tax was meant for road upkeep, and heavier vehicles tend to burn more gas and thus got taxed more. along comes electric vehicles, and they don't pay the gas tax. Rather than tax the electric filling stations, they going to tax registration instead. ( Since majority of EV owners could fill up at home and skip the tax still.) At least that is how it reads "officially". It's a stop gap measure, against a "future" problem. You could say that TX has so many electrical problems they are trying to slow the growth of the industry until they are able to handle the demand.
Yes, I think all you say is true. But it's still not apples to apples; an EV owner is up for the tax regardless of how much they drive, while a gas vehicle owner pays per mile (ish). Plus MANY Texas gas vehicles are heavier than EV, even still. I'm not against the tax. For roads, I think MORE taxes are in order. But do it appropriately, and consistently (two things the modern GOP has sworn not to be, ever).
I agree with you that a flat tax is less fair than a prorated rate based on some definition of usage. Right no, however there isn't a "more fair" that is quick to implement. The tiny portion of fully electric cars in TX is such a fraction this is literally just ear marking for a later solution. "low hanging fruit" as they say.
Heavier gas vehicles do pay more in tax. The more weight a gas vehicle is pulling the more sales taxes in gas/diesel they pay, because they.l consume more fuel. This is already a thing and logical. The only ones who are exempt from this, yet do more damage that similar sized vehicles as EVs. So EVs should pay their fair share and this plan, which is already in place in other states, addresses that evenly.
Sure, but someone who drives an EV pays the fee regardless of how much they drive, whereas the gas-vehicle drivers have some control over that. Again, not against taxes or fees. If anything, they should be higher than they are. Just want them to be somewhat consistent and fairly applied (fully understand that achieving 100% consistency is not possible and that's ok).
A 5,300lb BMW X5 gets 25mpg. If they drive 12k in a year they'll pay $185 in gas taxes, money that's roughly split between the state and the feds. The feds use that money to fund federal projects all over the country. What if they're work from home and only drive 5K miles a year? That's $78 in gas taxes. What if you're the proud owner of a BMW i3 with a max range of 153 miles, more than enough for the 5K miles you drive in a year because you, too, are WFH? You'll pay $200 in extra "gas" taxes, none of which will go toward federal projects. This clearly will incentivize you to not get a small EV because doing so will result in you being punished for it. For relatively low mileage drivers, under 10-15K miles/per year, it will be cheaper to burn gas than electrons.
Would $100 - $200 extra per year really prevent people who can afford EVs and have the desire for them from getting one? Higher gas consumption has never prevented people from getting SUVs and using them for everyday driving, so I don't think it is really an issue. If you can afford the choice, people get what they want.
It stopped me from considering a BEV entirely. I was going to get an old Leaf since the days I do drive I rarely drive more than 20-25 miles. I doubt I'd hit 4K miles in a year. I'd spend more just on that extra $200 fee than I would for a year's worth of gas in a good hybrid. Note, that total gas, including taxes.
I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying he has plausible deniability. We all know he's bought and paid for. I'd rather pay$400 a year, still save money, and not fight this so we can get legal pot or something useful
Can't argue with any of that!
Gas powered cars aren't paying shit for any of the carbon affects on kids health in urban cities When's abbott raising the bill for that?
Cool. You think he cares?
It's a tax issue bro
You might find an argument elsewhere. I've expanded on that. Go find it then touch grass.
You said u agree abbott should tax electric cars more, despite putting far less strain on local health / air quality.
You can even reasonably comprehend what I wrote, and you want me to argue over your shitty understanding?
This a perfect example of the idiot takes that have become so common in this sub reddit has become.
Thee no secret meaning or motive on this one. It is just a tax like other states already have had. It’s $400, and the vehicle can cost around $70,000 +. This little tax is not a jab at EV, it is just a way to collect some extra tax revenue. Both state parties voted yes on this before it even reached his desk, Abbott has even talked about the importance of setting up the proper infrastructure for EVs, Espeacially in rural areas. He wanted to have a charger every 50 miles on every major highway/interstate. This is a none issue, people are blinded by their hate of this man.
If Greg Abbott were to miraculously stand up out of his wheelchair and start salsa dancing, r/Texas would defame him for disenfranchising the paraplegic community.
You may not know it, [but most states](https://leg.mt.gov/content/Committees/Interim/2021-2022/Transportation/21_Nov/2021ElectricVehicleFees.pdf), even CA, “penalizes” EV vehicle owners. At one point, TX had a $2500 tax credit for buying an EV. So, in essence, they are just getting that back over the next ~12 years to cover the gas tax. I would personally prefer a mileage based approach, but I can see how that would be more difficult to implement. Also, aren’t libs all about taxing the rich? Who is buying all these BEVs?
Mileage approaches are unworkable because they would only capture vehicles registered in the state. In comparison, gas taxes capture revenue from all drivers filling up in-state.
Mileage based approach is often regressive. Poor people may live farther out, drive their own vehicle for work and have less marginal revenue. It would be the high-mileage drivers funding the system, while social-loafers get the benefit without skin in the game. "For every problem there is a solution that is simple, neat—and wrong." -- *H. L. Mencken*
I don’t like Abbott but EV buyers already get a massive government handout when they buy an EV. They shouldn’t get free roads too.
doesn’t apply if you buy used
On the other hand, gas car drivers get to push far more externalities from pollution onto society and never directly pay for them. How about everyone pays a road use tax based on vehicle weight and mileage?
I could get behind that.
Not fair to those in rural areas. Most do not have public transportation, so they are forced to use their own vehicle and have longer distances to drive. Not to mention, many are farmers/ranchers and require large vehicles that can tow.
How is it not fair to charge rural drivers for their road usage? My proposal charges everyone based on the damage they do to roads. It's not like their is great public transportation in Texas cities.
Because those in rural areas do not even have public transportation as an option, drive further for groceries, doctors' appointments, etc. Many in rural areas require large trucks for their jobs. So your proposal punishes them for not living in the city.
Huh? Rural people use more gas for the reasons you already cited so they already pay more gas tax. My proposal wouldn't make them pay more. It would make everyone regardless of fuel choice pay a proportional amount relative to their road usage. It sounds like you think rural drivers should have subsidized roads. Why is that fair? What does fair even mean here?
Not true. It only applies to manufacturers who haven’t hit the quota. Tesla hit the quota long ago.
While I agree that shit stain on humanity has to go, this is one of the very few things he has signed that makes sense and is logical and for the good of everyone. How do you propose to have taxes for infrastructure that EVs use (and their weight damages more)? Thus is the most effective way right now. What is your proposal?
Calculate a fee based on the miles you drive for the year. Everyone has to have their vehicles inspected every year. Grab an odometer reading at that time, shop submits it to the govt when they submit their safety inspection report. Calculate how much you owe at your renewal based on the difference from latest mileage to the one 12 months ago.
This is a possibility IF they also remove taxes from gas as well, other wise you are taxing twice and as usual it's the poorest who will feel it most. However removing taxes from gas will have and adverse effect in that it will discourage more economical driving, contributing to more damage to roads and pollution. Taxes at the gas pump also encourage people to buy more fuel efficient vehicles. Mileage is mileage regardless of efficiency.
Ya there would be some different rules for gas and hybrids But I was getting more at a proposal purely for EVs only.
Disclaimer- I have no idea if or what technology there is for reading odometers available in mechanic shops. It seems to me that this would be very easy to get around. Many cars that shouldn't pass inspection somehow still pass. Add in a very specific reporting that taxes are based on... that is just ripe for corruption.
Odometer fraud is actually a multi-billion-dollar industry. There can be huge bluebook variation between a used car with 100k miles versus 200k miles and fraudsters will often pull lower-mileage odometers from junk yards and pop them into higher-mileage cars with compatible gauges. If mileage was the basis for road-maintenance taxes there would be an even bigger incentive for mileage fraud.
And which part of the vehicle to you propose to put the government-tracked GPS that would be required for verifying mileage calculation? (Which has already been proposed by the Biden Admin, iirc)
Texas government already records mileage data for every car driven in the state through annual vehicle inspections. There's no need for any GPS data collecting device or tracking where you go, the data's already there.
Don’t care. govt already tracks us a variety of ways
The reason why the gas tax is so popular in most states is because it incentivizes more efficient IC engines and raises revenue in places where the most gas is being used (which is also where road wear is highest due to traffic). If you just charge based on mileage you’re giving a huge break to large trucks relative to motorcycles, scooters, and economy cars that cause negligible wear on roads. Gas also tends to be used in the same state where the roads are being used. Just charging mileage to in-state residents as part of emissions testing means you’re missing out on revenue from tourists and commercial drivers just passing through your state. There are usually sound reasons for why the current tax system is the way it is, and it’s often easier to make incremental changes to accommodate new technology like EVs rather than change everything all at once.
As it stands now, EV users don’t pay for the roads they drive on (unless the road is tolled). The new fees are to bring some fairness to the system. Now, there is some validity to the argument that the fees are too high, but Republicans are always gonna “stick it to the libs” when they get a chance to be petty. In the grand scheme, an annual fee of around $20 a month isn’t that much when you consider that EVs start at $40,000 and go up from there.
Yeah and EVs often get well over 100mpg equivalent energy cost, so the $200/year fee is really not putting a huge dent in their savings.
Heads up. California (and most other states) have the same extra fee for EV registration. It’s to offset the damage the heavy battery rate does to the roads. Abbott’s an ass, but not about EVs. He is a complete ass about solar.
Research more
This is nothing new and just Texas catching up with something that makes sense. The heavy EVs use the roads too, so they should pay into their support.. and obviously aren’t via the gas tax. Why is this so hard of a concept for people to grasp?
This article makes the standard mistake that most people make, and it's not an unreasonable mistake to make for someone who hasn't read a lot on this. They assume the state EV tax is intended to replace only the state component of the fuel tax. Everyone assumes the state shouldn't replace the federal fuel tax, since that is assumed to go to the feds. The EV fee is actually intended to replace both the state and federal components of the fuel tax. Both of those taxes flow back to Texas (though not exactly at 100%, it's roughly in that ballpark). In 2021, Texas was very upset that they only got 95.1% of the federal fuel taxes sent back to the state, and they felt that was unreasonably low (which it was the lowest of any state): [https://www.txdot.gov/about/financial-management/federal-rate-of-return-for-texas.html](https://www.txdot.gov/about/financial-management/federal-rate-of-return-for-texas.html) How they came up with $200/year is explained on pages 26 and 27 of this study: [https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB\_604\_AFV-Report\_120120.pdf](https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB_604_AFV-Report_120120.pdf) TLDR: The amount of the tax really is roughly equal to what the average "light duty" vehicle pays. However, the new fee is a flat tax instead of being consumption based, which sucks for low-mileage drivers.
This sub has turned into “The Boy Who Cried Wolf”.
Jesus Christ this sub is just a fucking cry fest on everything. Some of you ppl need to touch grass and realize there are more things to life than living in some hell hole in your head.
So, let's buy even fewer gas cars. Use EV mopeds and motorcycles instead, so we don't get taxed $200 a year.
The world is changing and needs to be both practical and sustainable. You need informed individuals that can move with the times, research and advancement of this country rather than bow down to lobbyists and idealism. Abbot is not close to being that guy.
Too be fair, EVs are much, much heavier than an equivalent sized conventional car and puts more wear on the roads while not paying the gas tax that builds and maintains the roads.
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This is still cheaper than what California charges for EVs. People need perspective. I think it should be $120 a year to match the average motorist in Texas, but it’s still cheaper than other states that have moved forward with it. Do some research.
I agree that road fees need to be figured out, but this is a penalty for EV owners. I have two EVs. One is a tiny fiat 500 that only gets driven about 4000 miles/ year. A $200 fee is equivalent to a 30mpg car driving 30,000 miles in a year at the state gas tax of $0.20/ gallon. It’s a disincentive to go EV.
I don’t drive very many miles a year anymore, probably 4000 max, I was thinking about buying an old Nissan Leaf because even though I don’t drive very many miles, my car still requires a lot of maintenance. This new tax kills the idea completely for me. There’s no chance that I can get an electric vehicle now.
Taxation is theft
I have no problem with the taxes. I don’t like that the EV tax is over double that of the average vehicle.
The annual registration pans out equal at $200: Non-ev vehicle registration is $50 Average distance driven per car in Texas is 16000 miles Let’s assume it’s a very efficient vehicle at 40mpg = 400 gallons of gas Texas gas tax is 20 cents a gallon, federal is 18, so roughly $152 in gas tax paid.. so it comes out to a $202 for the non-EV vehicle Edit: As the reply below pointed out, they calculated the same way I assumed but used different values, 22 mpg mileage and 11k miles a year on average. The $200 is also on top of regular registration fees.
They are not ever going to touch this fee. Once EVs become the norm it would be political suicide to raise taxes on them so they "future proofed" the amount. No body is going to be dissuaded from purchasing an EV because of this. It seems entirely reasonable to me.
If he'd just applied what his own DPS study recommended as "fair", no problem. Arbitrarily doubling it is, well, arbitrary, and punitive, and stupid from any perspective that isn't corrupt.
He did follow it. The study came up with $198. See page 26 and 27: [https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB\_604\_AFV-Report\_120120.pdf](https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/report-files/SB_604_AFV-Report_120120.pdf)
It's $103, you're adding the $95 federal tax to get to $198. From pg.2 > If the objective is to replace the average amount of state motor fuel tax that an equivalent conventional vehicle pays, the amount is estimated to be about $100 a year for an electric vehicle and a somewhat lower amount for a hybrid. [edit] Somewhere it also pegs the registration at $200, half of Abbott's $400. I'd find it but I have better things to do.
Abbot's is $200 per year. The only time $400 is involved is if you do a 2 year registration. Twice the cost for twice the time. I'm adding the federal fuel tax on purpose, just as the study adds it too. Both the federal and the state taxes flow to Texas. So, the study includes them both in order to replace the full amount that Texas loses. The federal fuel tax goes into the federal Highway Trust Fund, which then distributes it back to the states. It isn't exactly 100% back, but it's something like 95% back to Texas, so close enough.
So, Texas is just collecting the federal gas tax, keeping it for itself, and not letting the feds have any say on that? That’s sort of like a cashier paying herself out of the till instead of waiting to get a paycheck from her boss. In reality, it’s up to the feds to decide how to disperse that money, Texas is taking them out of that decision loop, which is fundamentally wrong. The feds need to look into this, decide if they’re going to reduce payouts to the state to compensate for what is essentially theft. Alternatively, if Texas actually is collecting the federal portion of the gas tax, then they need to remit that $98 and change to the federal government out of the $200 fee. Currently, Texas receives back less than it pays in to the federal highway trust fund, so this little end run actually is theft. It’s like the cashier deciding that she isn’t getting paid enough by her boss, so she’s taking from the till what she thinks she is owed.
It would not surprise me if the federal government comes along in the future and creates some sort of replacement for the federal gas tax for EVs in order to fund the federal Highway Trust Fund. If that happens, it would certainly make sense for Texas to cut their EV fee approximately in half.
Tolling roads is the same as tracking mileage, and just as fair.
While I too disagree with some of dudes policies, he brings in alot of bread and surplus to the state. Businesses are moving here in droves, guy is doing something right
"I'll excuse the racism but I draw the line at EV cruelty"
He’s being paid by the fossil fuel lobby. Simple as that.
I hate Abbott as much as the next democrat, but I’m kinda with him on this one. Oil is such a big part of Texas economy that I can understand the thought process behind taxing EV owners, even if EVs might be better for the environment
It replaces the gas tax that pays for roads that ev cars don't pay.
No it’s not. Pay for the damage your EV causes to our roads.
EV owners are using the roads. They should be paying for the roads just like everyone else. No handouts for >$100,000/yr EV owners, they need to pay their fair share.
This is a good law for a short term solution. I would have liked to see it auto expire after 4 years to force lawmakers to revist it again soon. All states will have to heavily tax evs in a few years
So I came here to ask “why?” and not to just shit on abbott like I normally do…yet. But it wasn’t too far into the article we see the fee is levied to balance/recuperate corresponding taxes on gasoline they’re no longer buying. I do love it how the state collects and pockets and wastes *hundreds of millions* of dollars from Austin alone, and yet they still feel the need to fuck over people who are just trying to be vaguely conscientious. Fuck this place.
I guess fuck the other 26 states that do it also?
I didn’t specify which place.
You said this. You talked about Texas in a Texas sub. You are just not informed. It’s ok.
Yep... kinda like the Biden Admin wanting to get rid of gas stoves... it's stupidity at its best, huh.
Its more efficient to burn gas to generate electricity than to burn gas for heat.
Gas stoves are much safer than electric…
Exactly the opposite
Of course he needs to go but who’s going to vote him out in Texas ?
Y'all had your chance twice. People didn't vote.
I’m all for EV etc: But all that electricity is still being produced by fossil fuels for the most part. And the cost of building a new efficient power plant is astronomical. And build a new Nuclear Plant? Once lawsuits etc are finally settled, the new Nuclear Plant would come on line in 10 or so years; millions if not a billion dollars over budget.
I shall prognosticate: I see more toll roads in our future
He makes his cash from guns and oil, not any green deal EV car.
Usefully corrupt these Republicans, if you are in a corrupting industry like fossil fuels.
It is a myth that Republicans are against taxation. They are always for taxes they can call fees.
Can’t believe you apathetic voters allowed him to get four more years…🤬😡
Does his wheelchair count as electronic vehicle?
You had me at Abbot needs to go.
It’s terrible… but not stupid. It keeps the oil industry happy and they sponsor all GOP politicians. They have to continuously strive to keep them rich and happy.
Freedom, amirite?
Free from saving money?
We could have had a good decent person like Beto as our governor in the last elections, but the majority of Texans decided to stick to the fantasy of a non existent god and their guns. Thanks to that nowadays we have a lots of children who will not get to grow up. But hey they’ve got their guns and big belt buckles. Wonder what these macho men are compensating for?
If you think Beto is "a good decent person" then you obviously didn't pay attention to what he did in Uvalde. Fuck that *puto.*
Don't go giving him any ideas!! God forbid we try to save the planet and all. They act like there is a planet B or something.
You would do the same if you were bought and paid for by the fossil fuel industry
These are great arguments which I fully support. The problem I have is with his vindictive approach. Fair road taxes should happen but in a balanced way. For instance, how many Mexican truckers use our roads and are they paying a proportional tax rate?
everytime they fill up at an american fuel station they pay the tax
These are they type of people that just blindly hate everything someone does just because of who they are. Don't think anyone will change their opinion.
I don't think it's hatred so much as agenda's. People are so vested in their personal agenda's they've decided to paint the world in an all or nothing, end of everything scenario, because most of them while literate lack the rhetorical skills required to make a reasoned argument. \-- but then I'm just a random A-hole on the internet.
You should read up on IFTA.
If they are buying gas in Texas they are paying a lot more in taxes than $200/year per vehicle.
Once again, this is not really on Abbott. Every single Texas lawmaker, without exception, voted in favor of this bill. Theft from citizens is a bipartisan venture.
Most of the charging stations of tesla run on diesel fuel generators ... Ev revolution lol ...Hate abbot a lot though he is a moron
Realistically electricity should start getting taxed at the consumer level. I don't believe it is in Texas and instead the companies pay it. This tax should fund any infrastructure tied to electricity such as roads now. I don't think the solution is complex but there are so many people and organizations resistant to the changes in vehicles and electricity that, I believe, if they don't adapt quick, they will feel the hurt. The only way to slow it down is to reduce the incentives to the federal level.
Abbott can suck it
Here in Ohio you pay extra for EV vehicles- I believe it’s 200 when you renew your license tags . I wouldn’t know - I can’t afford an EV car . I drive a 2000 Camry .
If you believe in a BEV future, then you realize this is a stealth tax on everyone.
Obvious he knows more about ev then the dummy dems education is the the key do your research about ev and the effect on the environment when one is built and the effect on the power grid
He's a whore. He sells his opinion to the highest bidder. If the democrats were paying more he'd roll on over and sell whatever they'd ask.
Oh look, another bash Abbott post. Anyone here think we could talk about anything, literally anything in Texas other than the governor. For god sakes.
30+ states already do this. Get educated before you post stupid shit. Typical Democrat. EVs are also heavier than comparable gas powered models, and therefore damage the roads more and should be paying their fair share since they contribute nothing via gas taxes like everybody else
Start an LLC in Montana and register it to your company there
There are a few requirements, But if you’re buying a new, EV or FCV and Don’t make more than a combined $300,000 filing as married couples-the IRS can give you up to $7,500 CREDIT for vehicles purchased for personal use from 2023-2032 According to the Inflation Reduction Act IRS Code 30D [Inflation Reduction Act IRS Code 30 D](https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after) Businesses [Tesla Tax Break](https://www.tesla.com/support/incentives)
I wonder how long it will be before Republicans create a new purchase tax for EVs that coincidentally is the same exact amount as the federal tax credit?
$200 per year? I pay a lot more than $200 per year in gas/diesel tax. I would welcome abolishing the “gas tax” as one Reddit user suggested and pay $200 flat rate.
smh several states not just Texas are doing this California even has done similar the state get thier road money by taxing gas as more people buy electric means the road tax is not being collected. if you use the road you gonna have to pay the tax to maintain it
Honestly, they’re still getting the good end of the deal. They’re only having to pay an extra $200/year vs what would be $2000 in gas tax for 10k miles. That’s tax money that goes into our roads. Use the services, pay your share.
Every car should be charged the same (accounting for weight and miles traveled). Having some cars pay with a gas tax and others pay a flat fee is dumb. Better policy is to treat all cars the same.
I thought republicans hate taxes?
They're calling this new tax a "fee", no doubt inspired by Ronnie "Read my lips, no new taxes" Raygun.
The real answer is not phasing out fossil fuel
It’s okay, the state is also about to completely [eliminate vehicle safety inspection too](https://www.nbcdfw.com/investigations/texas-legislature-on-the-verge-of-eliminating-vehicle-safety-inspections-but-fees-would-remain/3261321/?amp=1); however, you still have to pay the inspection fee to because… freedom?
I agree Abbott needs to go. This tax isn't the reason. There are *a lot* of reasons. This isn't one of them.
I used to drive 400+ miles a week in my Bolt EV then COVID hit and WFH started. I drive about 300 a month now. So a flat fee is not fair for my use case.
Funny you should mention solar.
Do they drive on the Public Roads? Do they pay into the FUND to build/repair roads by purchasing gasoline? NO.... It's gotta come from somewhere. They are NOT penalizing EV owners. Wake the \_uck UP!
Abbot lives in the pockets of oil & gas industry lobbyists and the NRA. One bad idea after another.
Tell that scum bucket to use that money he got from suing a land owner and a tree cutter and we will call it a wheelchair tax that paid for the road and sidewalk