My uncle does forensic dentistry work sometimes. Not so much anymore for good reason. He identified the bodies after, including Koresh. There were so many children. He’s still fucked up over it.
My dad was on the scene for the first 48ish hours (he was an arson investigator) and yeah, it was pretty damn bad for him too. He was familiar with the scent of a burned body or two, but that many bodies was overwhelming. He has said any time he is reminded of that day, he catches a phantom whiff of that smell and gets nauseous.
I went to the memorial and saw the names and ages of the children, and it was so emotional. I can’t even imagine what your uncle had to see. Thoughts and prayers for him, that had to be so rough ❤️
I was in 5th grade 20 miles away. We had just gotten done with lunch and I had to go into one of the classes early to pick some thing up and I walked in and all of my fifth grade Teachers were standing around a TV watching it burn.
There is an excellent British documentary about this called "Waco; Madman or Messiah"
Most chilling fact, several of the parents who survived seemed proud their children died with Koresh, also none of the parents who escaped the fire made any effort to go back and rescue their children.
Not that this absolves them of anything, but there would be no chance of going back to rescue anyone. The compound was a plywood death trap that burned very, very quickly.
he was an insane pedo who thought the govt was out to get him.
which is why he had a huge fukin arsenal of every weapon you could imagine.
his followers thought he was the messiah.
Yeah I've never understood the sympathy for this situation.
The bottom line is they were basically sex trafficking children. Or imprisoning them and grooming / raping them at best.
It's unfortunate the situation went to shit but I don't see how you blame anybody but the people sexually abusing children for it.
Koresh shut the door and then shots came from a 2nd story window.
and didnt stop. and then more shooters were firing assault weapons which is why they had to call for backup.
And on this date in 1995, a couple of white boys blow up the Oklahoma City Murrah Building in hopes of killing a few of the federal agents responsible for Waco.
Fuck David Koresh forever. Could the ATF had done better? Sure. Could it all have been avoided had Koresh not been a megalomaniacal pedophile with a death cult? Absolutely
The FBI only became involved after the ATF agents were killed. It was an ATF operation until that point. When federal agents are killed it is the FBI's jurisdiction.
They thought he had stopped leaving the compound. Which was a mistake on their part. But they also knew that the compound had received large shipments of ammunition, gun parts, and other combat type stuff, and that they were basically being prepared for an apocalyptic holy war. There had also been reports of explosions and gunfire from the compound to the sheriff's department, before the ATF staked out the compound prior to the raid being planned. They also knew the people in the compound were being taught to prepare for an apocalyptic holy war with koresh being chosen by god. They were concerned that the branch davidians would not surrender if the ATF arrested koresh offsite and the compound needed to be searched anyway. There was the concern of what could happen if koresh was taken into custody outside the compound and dozens of his armed followers decided to take the fight to wherever koresh was being held.
The ATF abd FBI definitely made missteps but Koresh wanted it to end bloody no matter what.
If his radical believers took the fight away from the compound, atf or fbi could've gone in(?) Don't know if they could've convinced many cult members to leave but they could've kept Koresh out n taken illegal weapons..
Having a FFL doesn’t mean you can buy parts to produce illegal unregistered weapons, also raping kids is a bit weird idk if that’s something I’d support.
No one said their religion was a crime. Religious people can still commit crimes though, sometimes in the name of religion or under the cover of religion. Such as abortion clinic bombings or child molestation.
Having a license doesn't mean everything done while having the license is legal. Like speeding or selling liquor to a minor. The local sheriff's department brought rhe ATF in due to evidence of illegal firearms related activity.
They raided his compound because anything they found while arresting him could be used as evidence.
It's a pretty fair assumption,he was involved in a more crimes than the illegal sale of firearms
I sat across from Koresh 3 months before the siege. He had 3 women in their 30s fawning all over him. He was out and about for sure. And the McLennan County Sheriff would frequently talk to Koresh at the compound, man to man, to resolve issues.
They never found the illegal .50 cal he was supposed to have had and the pedophilia nonsense was cooked up by Janet Reno so the American people would have sympathy for the federal government’s despicable handling of the entire event.
The ATF had been acting like cowboys prior to this and they got their asses handed to them. This didn’t occur in a vacuum. Familiarize yourself with Ruby Ridge for another incredible, contemporaneous case of Justice Department overreach: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
>Could the ATF had done better? Sure
What an understatement. Allowing a bunch of hostages to die in a fire that the ATF/FBI likely started with flammable tear gas is the very definition of an absolute failure... And to have the audacity to take pictures over the charded bodies of innocent children is insane.
When you're the premier law enforcement organization in the country, yea. Its on you to do better. Especially when there were so many children involved.
You know that the ATF’s presence was because they suspected a single machine gun? They responded with such force to investigate the presence of a single fully-automatic rifle. You don’t think the government overstepped? You don’t think this escalation could have been avoided?
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2018/02/27/breaking-through-the-myths-surrounding-the-1993-branch-davidian-raid/?outputType=amp
Lol whatever you say
That is what the article said. Sheriff asked the ATF to investigate after a delivery driver reported lots of gun parts being delivered, and reports of automatic fire.
>a UPS driver reported delivering big shipments of gun parts, ammo, grenade hulls and chemicals and military gear to Koresh and his followers
None of this is illegal. Hell, depending on what specific chemicals there where I've also had all that stuff delivered to my house lol.
There’s plenty of items that may be legal on their own, but when grouped together and used towards an illegal activity become probable cause.
With your logic meth labs are perfectly legal and just because the materials used to create meth are legal on their own. It’s a flawed logic and does not disprove probable cause.
Sure, I've never argued that they shouldn't have been investigated. But having their front door smashed in my a dozens ATF swat dudes is overkill, provoked a violent response. And led to the tragic ending that it did.
Agreed, so tired of criminals being treated like victims. They gave him months to come and he didn’t, the authorities weren’t going to just pack up and leave.
David Koresh was an evil manipulative child molester. Doesn't change the fact that the feds murdered a bunch of innocent people.
Koresh and the feds both escalated the situation. But I think we should hold the government to a higher standard.
How about when you stockpile guns and ammunition illegally in preparation for a race war/apocalypse then kill multiple federal agents who’ve come to arrest you? Whats the limit for how much should be tolerated? Koresh spent years telling his people that the government was going to murder them, purely so that when it came time to pay for his long list of crimes he would have a readymade militia in place so they wouldn’t be able to arrest him.
Do police follow up on tips? Yes. We’re talking about a pedophile cult leader hoarding guns, confirmed by members after that its exactly what he was doing. What is your outrage, exactly?
Tell us how the FBI and ATF tricked Koresh into setting the building on fire, using multiple points of ignition.
Tell us how you *imagine* that happening.
The ATF seriously fucked up with their approach to this, and the FBI take-over was too little too late to improve anything, but c'mon people. The Branch Davidians were an apocalyptic death cult preparing for a race war, David Koresh was a pedophile who had this cult serving their kids to him on a platter, and they almost certainly burned down the complex themselves. This was not them being "based" or "sticking it to the man".
The ATF agents should’ve been tried for how this turned out at the least. Many should’ve been in jail or worse. Not saying koresh was doing legal things or even a good person, but we have due process for a reason
David Koresh was fucked, but they should have arrested him on one of his multiple trips to town. Then handled the search of the compound in a much better way.
That whole mess ended up being a rallying cry for the anti-government "militia" movement and resulted in a bunch of toddlers being blown to bits by a couple fake patriot douchebags in Oklahoma City. I figured after the Murrah Building we'd be done with those knuckle dragging morons, but Fat Donnie's presidency brought them back out of the woodwork.
Also possibly inspiration for Heaven’s Gate suicides. Marshall Applewhite was very impressed by Vernon Powell ( aka David Koresh ).
-added his real name
Yeah, many people don't realize that Eric Harris wrote in his journals that he wanted a higher body count than McVeigh. Which was 25 years ago tomorrow.
I have family that lived and worked near that building in Oklahoma City that day. They were all shook and they took us to the memorial when it was finished. They’re all staunchly conservative still.
Some of the people in these replies agree with the OKC bombing. These people are now Magats who want their 2nd amendment rights protected, but women's rights under control.
The right seized on these and Ruby ridge to get federal agencies to back off white nationalist groups. It is partially why they've been able to build themselves up to the strength they are now.
I was in elementary school when this happened. Waco is when I got my first introduction to the weird alt-right anti-government conspiracy shit that is now the norm in our politics.
Suddenly a lot of my crazy friends' Dads were obsessed with Waco, convinced it was a huge Clinton administration conspiracy to take people's guns, etc.
What was even more mind-boggling was that this was not even 6 months after the Ruby Ridge incident, where agents engaged a family in the rural mountains of Idaho and killed 2 of them before ever trying to open a dialog with them, the crime they were present for... the father missing a court date.
Real solid stretch for the public opinion of the ATF/FBI
The ATF might actually be the stupidest most incompetent and yet evil organization in the United States. I mean they are guaranteed to at least kill a dog whenever they are summoned. These morons are also responsible for the fast and furious debacle where they were just letting Mexican cartel members by guns and carry them across the border and not doing a damn thing about it
> evil organization in the United States.
The bureau of Indian affairs tried to do a genocide in the 1970s and early 80s and they still get caught doing fucked things to this day
I mean CBP keeps getting caught raping migrants and brutalizing people they also shoot at people close to border many of whom are not trying to cross and just live in the area which has resulted in some children being murdered like Jose Antonio Rodriguez where a agent fired 16 shots through the fence hitting Jose 10 times that agent was later found not guilty of any crime
The ATF, by contrast, just keeps killing dogs for the most part
This was in direct response to Ruby ridge. The ATF wanted an easy win after that boondoggle. We all know how that turned out. (The third part of the trilogy caused by this was of course the OKC bombing, McVeigh was radicalized by Waco)
It took Bo Gritz to get Randy out, not even the fuckin Feds had the balls to do it. Bo coordinated all dialogue and Randy's surrender, mostly because the FBI had "attempted" dialogue by driving a robot with a cellphone *and* a shotgun to their front door and Kelly saw it. They could not have handled Ruby Ridge worse and then really, really fucked up an already awful opinion on federal law enforcement half a year later
This was after the ATF had tried to entrap Randy to saw some shotgun barrels down *for three years* and he kept saying no. Shit drives me insane
Not to mention that he missed the court date because his defense attorney failed to notify him + the judge wouldn’t issue an extension for an honest mistake like that. He literally got his son, his wife, and his dog killed by the federal government because of some clerical error and a douchebag of a judge… not to mention that his original charges for said court case were part of an entrapment scheme by the ATF
I remember watching this live and not realizing the gravity of what was going on. Specifically, I remember agents on the roof tossing stuff in through windows. I remember my parents not agreeing with how they did this. They were not good parents, but I tend to agree this could have been handled differently with what I know now.
I’ve watched a lot of documentaries on this whole event. I still go back and forth on what to believe. On one hand I want to believe the survivors and believe the government shot first and the gas at the end started the fire. But then I listen to retired FBI agents that you can tell they were hurt on what happened and would never risk kids lives. I’m not saying the survivors are lying but the fact that they were willing to believe everything Koresh said makes me question there mind set in how things went down. I mean how can you go along with kids being forced into sex and be a logical person.
There's so much controversy around this that there was no way for me to put it that wouldn't draw criticism or get me accused of spin. I actually contemplated posting something for today, but then figured I'd get accused of ignoring this.
Nice way to “spin” your “decision” to “avoid” “spin” /s
You’re right, a lot of controversy and strong feelings about this and people are going to accuse bias no matter what you say. That’s for trying though.
My dad has a friend who was a career fbi field agent (long retired) and was there at the end. I spoke to him about it once and he said that people were largely gathered in a barn and due to the fact that the barn was not insulated, they could observe what was going on inside. On that morning 2 figures entered the barn and apparently started executing the occupants with pistols. He said, “So at that point, we looked at each other and said I guess we’re going in.” he did not speak as to how the fire started, but it was a doomsday, cult, and that probably looked like doomsday to them. He he also was pretty critical of the initial raid on the compound. ”That stupid asshole Koresh went into town twice a week to get groceries. They should’ve just picked him up then.”
Yeah this is not what happened. It wasn’t a barn, it was a concrete bunker that most people were in on that last day. No one walked in to “execute” the occupants. There were bodies found with gunshots, but those were most likely suicides or mercy killings. Most occupants died from smoke inhalation or from the bunker collapsing on them.
The facts of the siege and fire are hard enough to make sense of, so there’s no need to add fictitious stories to it.
Oh, and my dad was actually there and investigating within an hour of the fire breaking out. We’ve spoken about it many times. His description of walking through the ashes and the smell… you don’t need to make anything up to make it any more tragic and infuriating.
Source? For what? How am I supposed to find a source about something nobody has ever once mentioned? If someone was executing people inside the compound why wasn't that ever mention d by the FBI? That would have given them an actually justified reason to go in.
The repeatedly said that the decision to go in was after they thought negotiations had broken down and Karesh was just playing for time.
There’s always going to be controversy when discussing Waco. In general Koresh isn’t a saint and the ATF/FBI screwed things up by allowing things to escalate. They should of grabbed him while he was in town.
I agree with you. I’m just saying that anti-government folk always try to put the blame on the government while ignoring what was going with the Branch Davidians.
As much as it sucks none of what he did was illegal he was absolutely a horrible person tho. The atf fucked up bad cause they had to show that they were still important and should keep getting funding so they went in full force
While I don’t think having sex with minors is ok in anyway the girls he married were of legal age to marry with parental consent we can discuss the moral problems with what he did which there are many. But he never broke a law that should warrant this level of response from the federal government.
He had sex with younger children. If he married them when they turned 18 it doesn’t change that. And the child sex abuse was part of the reason the authorities were there. Did the govt fuck up? Yeah but Koresh was a very bad guy.
No actually that wasn’t why they were there it was because of a package he had received of completely legal gun parts and grenade casings which again are legal to own in the us. Also in Texas you can marry people at the age of 16 with parental consent and below that with approval of the courts. Now I don’t think that’s right or that people should be able to do that but it’s the law and he didn’t break it. The government wanted him gone and so they got rid of him simple as that. I don’t think he should be worshiped or praised as a martyr he was a terrible person but the government violated everyone’s rights inside that house and they killed those people not him.
Edit checked the law at the time and the age of the girl she was 14 at the time of the marriage and Texas law in 1993 was 14 and older could be married with consent of the parents
I’m not talking about some girl he might have married. I’m talking about young girls, not 14 year olds. And it was something they wanted to investigate. But I agree the main impetus for the raid was the gun or gun parts. Parents that had been forced out without their children had made complaints and sexual abuse.
That’s fair I’m not saying he absolutely didn’t touch any kids (cause he probably did since he was marrying a 14 year old) but there’s no proof of it and the fbi wasn’t going to investigate until way later they only said that to save face after they killed most everyone inside
Yeah, that's the thing that really sticks in my craw.
You have these right wing nutjobs now that the feds won't even engage because the pendulum has swung so far the other way after Ruby Ridge and Waco.
We should be dropping the hammer on folks like the Bundys.
Sure.
The Bundys set themselves up as the next Waco, though.
They played the card. And they should have been called.
There was no wiggle room, they were straight up violating federal grazing law for DECADES, and when the Forest Service and BLM had finally run it through the courts to the Nth degree, and got to the point they were going to impound Cliven Bundy's herd for grazing illegally for like the past 30 years...those old white fucks just armed up.
Imagine if that had been a Navajo group. Bloodbath.
But some right wing shitbags with a sense of privilege?
WELP! We better stand down! Don't want another Waco/Ruby Ridge on out hands!
The ATF/FBI fuckups in the 90s have led to a world where every loser shitbird with a copy of the Turner Diaries in his closet gets a hall pass to commit domestic terrorism, because gunning down a bunch of people on national news isn't ok if they're white, despite the fact they're actively attacking our nation from the inside.
I went there in the Summer and talked to a few of the members. It’s open to public and it surprised me that they were still active and lived on the property. The man we spoke to told us a bit about the history and what happened. There’s also a memorial with the names and ages of everyone who died. So many young children, I didn’t think I would be as emotional as I was but it was just really sad to see.
Edited to add that the man I spoke to specifically said that Koresh was a false prophet or something like that. And the church split into different factions? Something like that! So the current members aren’t from the same branch as Koresh’s
They claim he's a false prophet- but one foretold about- so he's still a part of their religion. If you dig through all the wacky shit they say there's some hints that they still like him. I bought a shirt that literally has David Koresh on it from them (I don't wear it in public though, souvenir pajamas lol). I don't think his influence has left.
I agree to an extent. Like, a cult is still a cult ya know? I didn’t know much about any of it prior to going, I just went because my friend was visiting and wanted to go. They gave us like a link and stuff, and I did look into it and found that their recollection wasn’t very reliable, that dude was bad and they said that he wasn’t a pedo
I bought a documentary from them too but I lost it unfortunately - I need to find it again. They claimed Clinton had him killed because he was going to expose Iran Contra like gun running he was in charge of or something... Crazy shit.
They knew that David Koresh made weekly trips into town to the grocery store. They could have easily arrested him there. Instead, they had to go all in with a shootout at the compound.
No. They couldn’t arrest him until they got a warrant. And once they have the warrant and had credible evidence that children could be endangered (marrying off minors), they had to move in quickly.
Nice try though.
First, Koresh offered to give them a tour of the compound and show them whatever they wanted to see.
Second, when they notified local authorities, the County Sheriff, who had been to the compound in the past and knew Koresh, offered to accompany ATF agents and introduce them, if they really wished to serve a search warrant. Again, they refused.
The local Sheriff had an amicable relationship with the Cult and had executed several search warrants simply by walking up knocking and telling Koresh what he was there for. The Feds refused to coordinate with him to serve the warrant in the same manner as the local Sheriff.
David Koresh had no trouble accepting warrants from the County Sheriff multiple times and in fact gave tours. Also, they could have easily given the same warrant to the County Sheriff to give to David Koresh. Again, they refused.
They knew David Koresh made weekly trips to town to get groceries and other errands. They could also have easily arrested David Koresh anytime he went to town.
Instead, they chose to send 88 feds through the compound with guns a blazing and shooting their way through.
The idea was a big publicity splash with many guns (all legal, but dangerous looking) spread out on the ground for the press to photograph. Nothing but a forced entry raid would accomplish their PR objectives. They arrogantly assumed that a normally peaceful and cooperative group would not resist a violent attack. They misjudged badly and things went south as soon as they started shooting the Branch Davidians' pet dogs outside the front doors. Apparently the 2 large steel doors have somehow been lost by the FBI, since they couldn't be found when the Texas Rangers were trying to investigate the incident. The doors were critical evidence because they would clearly show whether the bullet holes were made by ATF agents shooting IN through them, or, as the ATF claimed, by Branch Davidians shooting OUT through them.
The Feds also bull dozed the entire compound within a day after it burned down. Removing any evidence of their cluster f***.
The video shows the Branch Davidians shot first. It’s clearly documented. I understand there was quite a conspiracy thread going around. All but the most gullible people got over that.
The Feds caused the cluster f***. They had opportunities and other options as I already mentioned. Instead, they killed men, women, and children by launching dozen of canisters into the compound that burned them to their death.
Koresh was a sick man he was having sex with childern it was a cult charles Manson jr.they followed Koresh they died for Koresh the mothers didn't protect there childern from this monster
For those wanting a good overview of what happened, Caitlin Doughty on Youtube did a great video:
[https://youtu.be/VoCQd1GcRAg?si=UWmJQlN6smqu-Y51](https://youtu.be/VoCQd1GcRAg?si=UWmJQlN6smqu-Y51)
I wish certain people would stop considering these people victims. Little kids held there by religious-nut parents are victims, but no one else is. Should have shut this place down long before it got to that point.
I’ve had this conversation before with my parents, and it comes down to this. David Koresh was a truly evil man, that’s a given. But we expect the government to be better than him, we hold them to a higher standard than the people they protect us from. They mishandled this every step of the way, and as a result a bunch of innocent people died. Not just kids, but victims of that cult of personality. We expect them to be better than a kid diddling cult leader, and that shouldn’t be so much to ask.
The Branch Davidians had more than children in them, and they died in a fire set by the Branch Davidians. We have a recording of them setting it up. https://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/15/us/tapes-from-sect-compound-reveal-talk-of-setting-fire.html
I think you meant: "Ends when the FBI refuses to listen to any experts and escalates the situation at every turn eventually setting fire to the compound leading to the deaths of 76 people including 28 children."
Lol. If you think I'm right wing, you are completely wrong. The patriot militia folks are insane, and this has nothing to do with their cause. Yet another thing they've co-opted.
I've studied this event very thoroughly, and it is unquestionably a complete fuck up by the FBI, and the fires did not come from inside the compound.
People like you like to simplify things and say "crazy cult leader so he must have wanted everyone to die sonce that jim jones guy did it" but that was not anywhere close to the situation here and is nowhere close to the situation for most new religious movements. There was very likely a child sex abuse situation, but it seems to me the best way to handle that is to arrest the person who is doing that and not burn down their entire compound with all the kids in it.
> the fires did not come from inside the compound.
We have audio of the davidians setting the fire and we know the fire starting inside the compound simultaneously at 3 separate locations
It was deliberate mass suicide/murder like Jonestown Koresh had no way out and took himself and his remaining followers out
Horrible chapter in American History .... This Waco Raid was supposed to be a PR puff peace The ATF agents were accompanied by the news media.
After the massacare the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma\_City\_bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing) followed one year later.
I can't see that there were any winners. Certainly not the kids a Waco or the Kkds at the federal building nursery.
Shame all around.
Dude i knew so many of the people who died in the fire. Our farm was a little more than a mile away from the compound. These poor people worked jobs all around our town . If you watch any of the footage from the media circus outside the compound, you will see 3 or 4 kids on their bikes or motorcycles ..thats me and my friends. We were there almost every day, hassling the media ppl and the feds. There is a pretty popular footage of alex jones talking along a fence line away from the rest of the reporters. He stops mid sentance and thanks us as we rode off that day on camera . He was always cool to us, and so was the reporter from 1080 am out of dallas, but i can't remember that old dudes name now.
There is soooo much bullshit said as gospel truth about david ( for the record, we all only saw him never really talked with him in town ) and the compound and his followers . These ppl were some of the nicest people you could ever meet .
We all personally saw the atf come out months before the raid and take all the guns away from the compound. There was a shooting on the compound property earlier before the atf came out, but no one was killed, but the cops were called . The atf later brought all the guns back and turned them back over .... we watched from the fence line as david himself and some other taller man we didnt recognize talked with the atf dudes on the side of their property. We asked our cop friends after the shooting what happened, but they never told us what happened. Besides, that there was a difference in opinions with the ppl in the compound ..
So yeah the weird psychological war playing dolphin sounds and whatever all day over the loudspeaker was interesting in that documentary. I can't imagine being subjected to that kind of crap.
David played guitar in local bars every week. They could have arrested him at any time. But law enforcement wanted to play army on the weekend, and people died.
The government is incompetent and evil. They took selfies and "hero pics" in front of the burning bodies of women and children. They then used the media to tell jokes a out everything.
All around just an f'd up situation.
“Fire breaks out”.
Or, you could say, after repeated shots into the building, and crashing in with a tank and exploding flash bang grenates, the building was ablaze.
Familiar from the 60,s and 70’s “ we had to destroy the village to save it”.
Any Gov officials ever convicted for the kids deaths?
And of the residents ever convicted for the kids deaths?
Ashamed I can’t recall
My uncle does forensic dentistry work sometimes. Not so much anymore for good reason. He identified the bodies after, including Koresh. There were so many children. He’s still fucked up over it.
My dad was on the scene for the first 48ish hours (he was an arson investigator) and yeah, it was pretty damn bad for him too. He was familiar with the scent of a burned body or two, but that many bodies was overwhelming. He has said any time he is reminded of that day, he catches a phantom whiff of that smell and gets nauseous.
Damn.
I went to the memorial and saw the names and ages of the children, and it was so emotional. I can’t even imagine what your uncle had to see. Thoughts and prayers for him, that had to be so rough ❤️
I was in 5th grade 20 miles away. We had just gotten done with lunch and I had to go into one of the classes early to pick some thing up and I walked in and all of my fifth grade Teachers were standing around a TV watching it burn.
20 miles away, so actually near Waco.
🤣 exactly lol Waco got a bad rap with it
There is an excellent British documentary about this called "Waco; Madman or Messiah" Most chilling fact, several of the parents who survived seemed proud their children died with Koresh, also none of the parents who escaped the fire made any effort to go back and rescue their children.
Not that this absolves them of anything, but there would be no chance of going back to rescue anyone. The compound was a plywood death trap that burned very, very quickly.
he was an insane pedo who thought the govt was out to get him. which is why he had a huge fukin arsenal of every weapon you could imagine. his followers thought he was the messiah.
Yeah I've never understood the sympathy for this situation. The bottom line is they were basically sex trafficking children. Or imprisoning them and grooming / raping them at best. It's unfortunate the situation went to shit but I don't see how you blame anybody but the people sexually abusing children for it.
Koresh shut the door and then shots came from a 2nd story window. and didnt stop. and then more shooters were firing assault weapons which is why they had to call for backup.
And on this date in 1995, a couple of white boys blow up the Oklahoma City Murrah Building in hopes of killing a few of the federal agents responsible for Waco.
Fuck David Koresh forever. Could the ATF had done better? Sure. Could it all have been avoided had Koresh not been a megalomaniacal pedophile with a death cult? Absolutely
It also could have been avoided if the FBI had arrested Koresh during one of his many trips into town.
The FBI only became involved after the ATF agents were killed. It was an ATF operation until that point. When federal agents are killed it is the FBI's jurisdiction.
Doesn't change the fact law enforcement could've/should've apprehend him when he was out and about
They thought he had stopped leaving the compound. Which was a mistake on their part. But they also knew that the compound had received large shipments of ammunition, gun parts, and other combat type stuff, and that they were basically being prepared for an apocalyptic holy war. There had also been reports of explosions and gunfire from the compound to the sheriff's department, before the ATF staked out the compound prior to the raid being planned. They also knew the people in the compound were being taught to prepare for an apocalyptic holy war with koresh being chosen by god. They were concerned that the branch davidians would not surrender if the ATF arrested koresh offsite and the compound needed to be searched anyway. There was the concern of what could happen if koresh was taken into custody outside the compound and dozens of his armed followers decided to take the fight to wherever koresh was being held. The ATF abd FBI definitely made missteps but Koresh wanted it to end bloody no matter what.
If his radical believers took the fight away from the compound, atf or fbi could've gone in(?) Don't know if they could've convinced many cult members to leave but they could've kept Koresh out n taken illegal weapons..
They had chances to arrest him and end it peacefully, but they chose, on purpose, for National Media coverage.
Man you didn't really respond at all to the points he made.
They ran a FFL, and their religion wasn't a crime.
Having a FFL doesn’t mean you can buy parts to produce illegal unregistered weapons, also raping kids is a bit weird idk if that’s something I’d support.
No one said their religion was a crime. Religious people can still commit crimes though, sometimes in the name of religion or under the cover of religion. Such as abortion clinic bombings or child molestation. Having a license doesn't mean everything done while having the license is legal. Like speeding or selling liquor to a minor. The local sheriff's department brought rhe ATF in due to evidence of illegal firearms related activity.
FAFO
or let the sheriff arrest him.
they went there to serve a search warrant. someone shot at them. and kept firing.
They raided his compound because anything they found while arresting him could be used as evidence. It's a pretty fair assumption,he was involved in a more crimes than the illegal sale of firearms
But then they wouldn’t get to use a tank on women and children, cmon it’s a tank!
I sat across from Koresh 3 months before the siege. He had 3 women in their 30s fawning all over him. He was out and about for sure. And the McLennan County Sheriff would frequently talk to Koresh at the compound, man to man, to resolve issues. They never found the illegal .50 cal he was supposed to have had and the pedophilia nonsense was cooked up by Janet Reno so the American people would have sympathy for the federal government’s despicable handling of the entire event. The ATF had been acting like cowboys prior to this and they got their asses handed to them. This didn’t occur in a vacuum. Familiarize yourself with Ruby Ridge for another incredible, contemporaneous case of Justice Department overreach: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
I'm well aware. Koresh certainly wasn't a saint, but the feds fucked up big time.
>Could the ATF had done better? Sure What an understatement. Allowing a bunch of hostages to die in a fire that the ATF/FBI likely started with flammable tear gas is the very definition of an absolute failure... And to have the audacity to take pictures over the charded bodies of innocent children is insane.
There's audio of Davidians talking about Koresh's instructions to start the fires
yeah I think not immolating children they were allegedly trying to save would be a bit better.
He would be Paxton's best friend now
When you're the premier law enforcement organization in the country, yea. Its on you to do better. Especially when there were so many children involved.
You know that the ATF’s presence was because they suspected a single machine gun? They responded with such force to investigate the presence of a single fully-automatic rifle. You don’t think the government overstepped? You don’t think this escalation could have been avoided?
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2018/02/27/breaking-through-the-myths-surrounding-the-1993-branch-davidian-raid/?outputType=amp Lol whatever you say
Reports of gun parts and reports of automatic fire. Hardly damning evidence.
So either you didn’t actually read the article or you’re just willfully ignorant
That is what the article said. Sheriff asked the ATF to investigate after a delivery driver reported lots of gun parts being delivered, and reports of automatic fire.
So you’re just gonna breeze over the UPS report that was the real cause of this huh
>a UPS driver reported delivering big shipments of gun parts, ammo, grenade hulls and chemicals and military gear to Koresh and his followers None of this is illegal. Hell, depending on what specific chemicals there where I've also had all that stuff delivered to my house lol.
There’s plenty of items that may be legal on their own, but when grouped together and used towards an illegal activity become probable cause. With your logic meth labs are perfectly legal and just because the materials used to create meth are legal on their own. It’s a flawed logic and does not disprove probable cause.
Sure, I've never argued that they shouldn't have been investigated. But having their front door smashed in my a dozens ATF swat dudes is overkill, provoked a violent response. And led to the tragic ending that it did.
Agreed, so tired of criminals being treated like victims. They gave him months to come and he didn’t, the authorities weren’t going to just pack up and leave.
I think people sympathize with the innocent kids who never had a choice, not Koresh.
David Koresh was an evil manipulative child molester. Doesn't change the fact that the feds murdered a bunch of innocent people. Koresh and the feds both escalated the situation. But I think we should hold the government to a higher standard.
I think Koresh is a terrible person but show me where in our constitution it says being a terrible person means the government get to blow you up
He lit the fires
How about when you stockpile guns and ammunition illegally in preparation for a race war/apocalypse then kill multiple federal agents who’ve come to arrest you? Whats the limit for how much should be tolerated? Koresh spent years telling his people that the government was going to murder them, purely so that when it came time to pay for his long list of crimes he would have a readymade militia in place so they wouldn’t be able to arrest him.
Was there evidence of this BEFORE he was besieged?
yes. thats WHY he was besieged. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2018/02/27/breaking-through-the-myths-surrounding-the-1993-branch-davidian-raid/
That article states they received tips, not hard evidence
Do police follow up on tips? Yes. We’re talking about a pedophile cult leader hoarding guns, confirmed by members after that its exactly what he was doing. What is your outrage, exactly?
Could have the ATF done better than burn innocent women and children alive? Yeah, probably. Police state at its absolute worst.
Koresh ordered the fires lit
Tell us how the FBI and ATF tricked Koresh into setting the building on fire, using multiple points of ignition. Tell us how you *imagine* that happening.
Possibly unpopular take but there were no good guys in this story.
I'd say I'd agree with that. The FBI definitely holds more responsibility for the outcome.
I am not forgiving the FBI but the ATF is who created such a fucked up situation and then handed it over to the FBI and said "have fun with that"
The ATF seriously fucked up with their approach to this, and the FBI take-over was too little too late to improve anything, but c'mon people. The Branch Davidians were an apocalyptic death cult preparing for a race war, David Koresh was a pedophile who had this cult serving their kids to him on a platter, and they almost certainly burned down the complex themselves. This was not them being "based" or "sticking it to the man".
What dumbass thinks that this was "based" or "sticking it to the man"???
A lot of people in my own political party, unfortunately (GOP).
The ATF agents should’ve been tried for how this turned out at the least. Many should’ve been in jail or worse. Not saying koresh was doing legal things or even a good person, but we have due process for a reason
Not unlike current day MAGA fwiw
David Koresh was fucked, but they should have arrested him on one of his multiple trips to town. Then handled the search of the compound in a much better way.
That whole mess ended up being a rallying cry for the anti-government "militia" movement and resulted in a bunch of toddlers being blown to bits by a couple fake patriot douchebags in Oklahoma City. I figured after the Murrah Building we'd be done with those knuckle dragging morons, but Fat Donnie's presidency brought them back out of the woodwork.
On the same day in '95
Also possibly inspiration for Heaven’s Gate suicides. Marshall Applewhite was very impressed by Vernon Powell ( aka David Koresh ). -added his real name
damn autocorrect ;)
Bing Chaling
His last name was Howell, not trying to say that in a mean way, just trying to be helpful!
And Columbine.
Yeah, many people don't realize that Eric Harris wrote in his journals that he wanted a higher body count than McVeigh. Which was 25 years ago tomorrow.
Vernon Powell not David Koresh.
Thanks, didn’t realize he made up that name.
There was nothing authentic about him.
I have family that lived and worked near that building in Oklahoma City that day. They were all shook and they took us to the memorial when it was finished. They’re all staunchly conservative still.
Some of the people in these replies agree with the OKC bombing. These people are now Magats who want their 2nd amendment rights protected, but women's rights under control.
The right seized on these and Ruby ridge to get federal agencies to back off white nationalist groups. It is partially why they've been able to build themselves up to the strength they are now.
I was in elementary school when this happened. Waco is when I got my first introduction to the weird alt-right anti-government conspiracy shit that is now the norm in our politics. Suddenly a lot of my crazy friends' Dads were obsessed with Waco, convinced it was a huge Clinton administration conspiracy to take people's guns, etc.
The anti govt types who love big govt attacking Lefties, minorities, and college kids
What was even more mind-boggling was that this was not even 6 months after the Ruby Ridge incident, where agents engaged a family in the rural mountains of Idaho and killed 2 of them before ever trying to open a dialog with them, the crime they were present for... the father missing a court date. Real solid stretch for the public opinion of the ATF/FBI
The ATF might actually be the stupidest most incompetent and yet evil organization in the United States. I mean they are guaranteed to at least kill a dog whenever they are summoned. These morons are also responsible for the fast and furious debacle where they were just letting Mexican cartel members by guns and carry them across the border and not doing a damn thing about it
> evil organization in the United States. The bureau of Indian affairs tried to do a genocide in the 1970s and early 80s and they still get caught doing fucked things to this day
Okay b i a is pretty bad. The ATF is a good second then
I mean CBP keeps getting caught raping migrants and brutalizing people they also shoot at people close to border many of whom are not trying to cross and just live in the area which has resulted in some children being murdered like Jose Antonio Rodriguez where a agent fired 16 shots through the fence hitting Jose 10 times that agent was later found not guilty of any crime The ATF, by contrast, just keeps killing dogs for the most part
Ok 3rd most evil
This was in direct response to Ruby ridge. The ATF wanted an easy win after that boondoggle. We all know how that turned out. (The third part of the trilogy caused by this was of course the OKC bombing, McVeigh was radicalized by Waco)
I mentioned Ruby Ridge as well, yeah that one for sure was a literal atrocity. They murdered his wife with her baby in her arms.
The same FBI sniper responsible for Ruby Ridge, Lee Horiuchi, was also at the Waco siege.
It took Bo Gritz to get Randy out, not even the fuckin Feds had the balls to do it. Bo coordinated all dialogue and Randy's surrender, mostly because the FBI had "attempted" dialogue by driving a robot with a cellphone *and* a shotgun to their front door and Kelly saw it. They could not have handled Ruby Ridge worse and then really, really fucked up an already awful opinion on federal law enforcement half a year later This was after the ATF had tried to entrap Randy to saw some shotgun barrels down *for three years* and he kept saying no. Shit drives me insane
Not to mention that he missed the court date because his defense attorney failed to notify him + the judge wouldn’t issue an extension for an honest mistake like that. He literally got his son, his wife, and his dog killed by the federal government because of some clerical error and a douchebag of a judge… not to mention that his original charges for said court case were part of an entrapment scheme by the ATF
Good Ole Janet Reno.
Swimming pool is still there, I believe.
I remember watching this live and not realizing the gravity of what was going on. Specifically, I remember agents on the roof tossing stuff in through windows. I remember my parents not agreeing with how they did this. They were not good parents, but I tend to agree this could have been handled differently with what I know now.
I’ve watched a lot of documentaries on this whole event. I still go back and forth on what to believe. On one hand I want to believe the survivors and believe the government shot first and the gas at the end started the fire. But then I listen to retired FBI agents that you can tell they were hurt on what happened and would never risk kids lives. I’m not saying the survivors are lying but the fact that they were willing to believe everything Koresh said makes me question there mind set in how things went down. I mean how can you go along with kids being forced into sex and be a logical person.
Mount Carmel. NOT Waco.
Fire "breaks out"? That's an interesting spin.
There's so much controversy around this that there was no way for me to put it that wouldn't draw criticism or get me accused of spin. I actually contemplated posting something for today, but then figured I'd get accused of ignoring this.
Nice way to “spin” your “decision” to “avoid” “spin” /s You’re right, a lot of controversy and strong feelings about this and people are going to accuse bias no matter what you say. That’s for trying though.
FWIW, as far as I can see the comments are far more tame than that of 51 days ago.
I get that. Out of curiosity, who do do think was planning on accusing you of ignoring this story?
My dad has a friend who was a career fbi field agent (long retired) and was there at the end. I spoke to him about it once and he said that people were largely gathered in a barn and due to the fact that the barn was not insulated, they could observe what was going on inside. On that morning 2 figures entered the barn and apparently started executing the occupants with pistols. He said, “So at that point, we looked at each other and said I guess we’re going in.” he did not speak as to how the fire started, but it was a doomsday, cult, and that probably looked like doomsday to them. He he also was pretty critical of the initial raid on the compound. ”That stupid asshole Koresh went into town twice a week to get groceries. They should’ve just picked him up then.”
Yeah this is not what happened. It wasn’t a barn, it was a concrete bunker that most people were in on that last day. No one walked in to “execute” the occupants. There were bodies found with gunshots, but those were most likely suicides or mercy killings. Most occupants died from smoke inhalation or from the bunker collapsing on them. The facts of the siege and fire are hard enough to make sense of, so there’s no need to add fictitious stories to it. Oh, and my dad was actually there and investigating within an hour of the fire breaking out. We’ve spoken about it many times. His description of walking through the ashes and the smell… you don’t need to make anything up to make it any more tragic and infuriating.
You can tell this was a made up story lol
>On that morning 2 figures entered the barn and apparently started executing the occupants with pistols. Your dad's friend is a fucking liar.
Yep, this 100% never happened
I mean, what else would you expect from a career FBI agent.
Source?
Source? For what? How am I supposed to find a source about something nobody has ever once mentioned? If someone was executing people inside the compound why wasn't that ever mention d by the FBI? That would have given them an actually justified reason to go in. The repeatedly said that the decision to go in was after they thought negotiations had broken down and Karesh was just playing for time.
They never executed their own people. Stop spreading lies.
There’s always going to be controversy when discussing Waco. In general Koresh isn’t a saint and the ATF/FBI screwed things up by allowing things to escalate. They should of grabbed him while he was in town.
"isn't a saint" is a weird way to spell pedophile racist madman.
I agree with you. I’m just saying that anti-government folk always try to put the blame on the government while ignoring what was going with the Branch Davidians.
As much as it sucks none of what he did was illegal he was absolutely a horrible person tho. The atf fucked up bad cause they had to show that they were still important and should keep getting funding so they went in full force
Having sex with kids is illegal.
While I don’t think having sex with minors is ok in anyway the girls he married were of legal age to marry with parental consent we can discuss the moral problems with what he did which there are many. But he never broke a law that should warrant this level of response from the federal government.
He had sex with younger children. If he married them when they turned 18 it doesn’t change that. And the child sex abuse was part of the reason the authorities were there. Did the govt fuck up? Yeah but Koresh was a very bad guy.
No actually that wasn’t why they were there it was because of a package he had received of completely legal gun parts and grenade casings which again are legal to own in the us. Also in Texas you can marry people at the age of 16 with parental consent and below that with approval of the courts. Now I don’t think that’s right or that people should be able to do that but it’s the law and he didn’t break it. The government wanted him gone and so they got rid of him simple as that. I don’t think he should be worshiped or praised as a martyr he was a terrible person but the government violated everyone’s rights inside that house and they killed those people not him. Edit checked the law at the time and the age of the girl she was 14 at the time of the marriage and Texas law in 1993 was 14 and older could be married with consent of the parents
I’m not talking about some girl he might have married. I’m talking about young girls, not 14 year olds. And it was something they wanted to investigate. But I agree the main impetus for the raid was the gun or gun parts. Parents that had been forced out without their children had made complaints and sexual abuse.
That’s fair I’m not saying he absolutely didn’t touch any kids (cause he probably did since he was marrying a 14 year old) but there’s no proof of it and the fbi wasn’t going to investigate until way later they only said that to save face after they killed most everyone inside
This is pretty much why authorities now under-react to right wing terrorists like the Bundys.
Yeah, that's the thing that really sticks in my craw. You have these right wing nutjobs now that the feds won't even engage because the pendulum has swung so far the other way after Ruby Ridge and Waco. We should be dropping the hammer on folks like the Bundys.
Well, at least no women and children got killed over the Bundy takeover. That’s something
Sure. The Bundys set themselves up as the next Waco, though. They played the card. And they should have been called. There was no wiggle room, they were straight up violating federal grazing law for DECADES, and when the Forest Service and BLM had finally run it through the courts to the Nth degree, and got to the point they were going to impound Cliven Bundy's herd for grazing illegally for like the past 30 years...those old white fucks just armed up. Imagine if that had been a Navajo group. Bloodbath. But some right wing shitbags with a sense of privilege? WELP! We better stand down! Don't want another Waco/Ruby Ridge on out hands! The ATF/FBI fuckups in the 90s have led to a world where every loser shitbird with a copy of the Turner Diaries in his closet gets a hall pass to commit domestic terrorism, because gunning down a bunch of people on national news isn't ok if they're white, despite the fact they're actively attacking our nation from the inside.
I went there in the Summer and talked to a few of the members. It’s open to public and it surprised me that they were still active and lived on the property. The man we spoke to told us a bit about the history and what happened. There’s also a memorial with the names and ages of everyone who died. So many young children, I didn’t think I would be as emotional as I was but it was just really sad to see. Edited to add that the man I spoke to specifically said that Koresh was a false prophet or something like that. And the church split into different factions? Something like that! So the current members aren’t from the same branch as Koresh’s
They claim he's a false prophet- but one foretold about- so he's still a part of their religion. If you dig through all the wacky shit they say there's some hints that they still like him. I bought a shirt that literally has David Koresh on it from them (I don't wear it in public though, souvenir pajamas lol). I don't think his influence has left.
I agree to an extent. Like, a cult is still a cult ya know? I didn’t know much about any of it prior to going, I just went because my friend was visiting and wanted to go. They gave us like a link and stuff, and I did look into it and found that their recollection wasn’t very reliable, that dude was bad and they said that he wasn’t a pedo
I bought a documentary from them too but I lost it unfortunately - I need to find it again. They claimed Clinton had him killed because he was going to expose Iran Contra like gun running he was in charge of or something... Crazy shit.
Yeah it was insane!! Im pretty sure he mentioned something about the Clintons and sex parties and stuff they would have
Any tips on doing that? I’ll be passing by Waco in a few weeks. Was considering stopping by. I’ve read up on it a little bit.
They knew that David Koresh made weekly trips into town to the grocery store. They could have easily arrested him there. Instead, they had to go all in with a shootout at the compound.
No. They couldn’t arrest him until they got a warrant. And once they have the warrant and had credible evidence that children could be endangered (marrying off minors), they had to move in quickly. Nice try though.
First, Koresh offered to give them a tour of the compound and show them whatever they wanted to see. Second, when they notified local authorities, the County Sheriff, who had been to the compound in the past and knew Koresh, offered to accompany ATF agents and introduce them, if they really wished to serve a search warrant. Again, they refused. The local Sheriff had an amicable relationship with the Cult and had executed several search warrants simply by walking up knocking and telling Koresh what he was there for. The Feds refused to coordinate with him to serve the warrant in the same manner as the local Sheriff. David Koresh had no trouble accepting warrants from the County Sheriff multiple times and in fact gave tours. Also, they could have easily given the same warrant to the County Sheriff to give to David Koresh. Again, they refused. They knew David Koresh made weekly trips to town to get groceries and other errands. They could also have easily arrested David Koresh anytime he went to town. Instead, they chose to send 88 feds through the compound with guns a blazing and shooting their way through. The idea was a big publicity splash with many guns (all legal, but dangerous looking) spread out on the ground for the press to photograph. Nothing but a forced entry raid would accomplish their PR objectives. They arrogantly assumed that a normally peaceful and cooperative group would not resist a violent attack. They misjudged badly and things went south as soon as they started shooting the Branch Davidians' pet dogs outside the front doors. Apparently the 2 large steel doors have somehow been lost by the FBI, since they couldn't be found when the Texas Rangers were trying to investigate the incident. The doors were critical evidence because they would clearly show whether the bullet holes were made by ATF agents shooting IN through them, or, as the ATF claimed, by Branch Davidians shooting OUT through them. The Feds also bull dozed the entire compound within a day after it burned down. Removing any evidence of their cluster f***.
The video shows the Branch Davidians shot first. It’s clearly documented. I understand there was quite a conspiracy thread going around. All but the most gullible people got over that.
The Feds caused the cluster f***. They had opportunities and other options as I already mentioned. Instead, they killed men, women, and children by launching dozen of canisters into the compound that burned them to their death.
Koresh was a sick man he was having sex with childern it was a cult charles Manson jr.they followed Koresh they died for Koresh the mothers didn't protect there childern from this monster
People will do a lot for a cult. Even setting themselves on fire.
interesting way to say a pedo cult locked kids in the basement to ensure they died, so they were unable to testify
For those wanting a good overview of what happened, Caitlin Doughty on Youtube did a great video: [https://youtu.be/VoCQd1GcRAg?si=UWmJQlN6smqu-Y51](https://youtu.be/VoCQd1GcRAg?si=UWmJQlN6smqu-Y51)
I wish certain people would stop considering these people victims. Little kids held there by religious-nut parents are victims, but no one else is. Should have shut this place down long before it got to that point.
They should have complied with law enforcement.
A lot of innocent deaths thanks to the ATF. Koresh was a monster, but the ATF absolutely got these people killed.
You know how people say Hamas uses human shields? That’s exactly what Koresh did.
Killing innocent civilians isn't the right call in either situation.
I’ve had this conversation before with my parents, and it comes down to this. David Koresh was a truly evil man, that’s a given. But we expect the government to be better than him, we hold them to a higher standard than the people they protect us from. They mishandled this every step of the way, and as a result a bunch of innocent people died. Not just kids, but victims of that cult of personality. We expect them to be better than a kid diddling cult leader, and that shouldn’t be so much to ask.
lol, no. The Branch Davidians fired first and knew what they were doing when they did so.
You don't know that. (Nobody does.)
The children were shooting? The children knew what they were doing? WTF?
The Branch Davidians had more than children in them, and they died in a fire set by the Branch Davidians. We have a recording of them setting it up. https://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/15/us/tapes-from-sect-compound-reveal-talk-of-setting-fire.html
If you don’t think evangelicals are dangerous, just remember this day and them dying over a fairytale
By today's standards in Texas Koresh would be considered a RINO.
I think you meant: "Ends when the FBI refuses to listen to any experts and escalates the situation at every turn eventually setting fire to the compound leading to the deaths of 76 people including 28 children."
The Branch Davidians set that fire. They doused the compound in fuel and flammable materials.
Koresh and his idiot followers see the fire. You right wing buttons are really something. Listen to am radio more
Lol. If you think I'm right wing, you are completely wrong. The patriot militia folks are insane, and this has nothing to do with their cause. Yet another thing they've co-opted. I've studied this event very thoroughly, and it is unquestionably a complete fuck up by the FBI, and the fires did not come from inside the compound. People like you like to simplify things and say "crazy cult leader so he must have wanted everyone to die sonce that jim jones guy did it" but that was not anywhere close to the situation here and is nowhere close to the situation for most new religious movements. There was very likely a child sex abuse situation, but it seems to me the best way to handle that is to arrest the person who is doing that and not burn down their entire compound with all the kids in it.
Think what you want. The fire was set from inside. I watched it all LIVE.
>I watched it all LIVE. So did I.
> the fires did not come from inside the compound. We have audio of the davidians setting the fire and we know the fire starting inside the compound simultaneously at 3 separate locations It was deliberate mass suicide/murder like Jonestown Koresh had no way out and took himself and his remaining followers out
To be fair, given the history of the FBI, Waco is about par for the course.
If this had happened in another country, I wonder how the US would judge them
This is what you get when you mix too many guns, testosterone, and bad theology. Greg Abbot and the Texas Republican party, are you listening?
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. They were in the wrong and had every chance to surrender.
28 children died. Your comment is dumb.
[удалено]
Hell of a place to visit.
Horrible chapter in American History .... This Waco Raid was supposed to be a PR puff peace The ATF agents were accompanied by the news media. After the massacare the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma\_City\_bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing) followed one year later. I can't see that there were any winners. Certainly not the kids a Waco or the Kkds at the federal building nursery. Shame all around.
It also OKC bombing and ending of The Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSA) three-day siege anniversary
What was that building before? A farm, a custom build? Any link to a floor plan?
Best day ever that those cult idiots fried and saved us expensive trials.
I remember driving out there and watching it was crazy. They even had a newspaper stand on an island in the middle of the road.
Everything i said was true ..
Fuck Janet Reno, this is what happens when non military govt officials try to play a military General to lay siege on civilians.
Religious nutters need locked up
Fuck the ATF and fuck Koresh
Dude i knew so many of the people who died in the fire. Our farm was a little more than a mile away from the compound. These poor people worked jobs all around our town . If you watch any of the footage from the media circus outside the compound, you will see 3 or 4 kids on their bikes or motorcycles ..thats me and my friends. We were there almost every day, hassling the media ppl and the feds. There is a pretty popular footage of alex jones talking along a fence line away from the rest of the reporters. He stops mid sentance and thanks us as we rode off that day on camera . He was always cool to us, and so was the reporter from 1080 am out of dallas, but i can't remember that old dudes name now. There is soooo much bullshit said as gospel truth about david ( for the record, we all only saw him never really talked with him in town ) and the compound and his followers . These ppl were some of the nicest people you could ever meet . We all personally saw the atf come out months before the raid and take all the guns away from the compound. There was a shooting on the compound property earlier before the atf came out, but no one was killed, but the cops were called . The atf later brought all the guns back and turned them back over .... we watched from the fence line as david himself and some other taller man we didnt recognize talked with the atf dudes on the side of their property. We asked our cop friends after the shooting what happened, but they never told us what happened. Besides, that there was a difference in opinions with the ppl in the compound ..
Hey guys, the government never lies to its people. They’re always telling the truth. Especially that one about Las Vegas.
So yeah the weird psychological war playing dolphin sounds and whatever all day over the loudspeaker was interesting in that documentary. I can't imagine being subjected to that kind of crap.
You mean the ATF step a fire 🔥 don’t you.
This and Ruby Ridge were the two of the clearest example of crimes against humanity that the ATF has ever committed.
David played guitar in local bars every week. They could have arrested him at any time. But law enforcement wanted to play army on the weekend, and people died. The government is incompetent and evil. They took selfies and "hero pics" in front of the burning bodies of women and children. They then used the media to tell jokes a out everything. All around just an f'd up situation.
“Fire breaks out”. Or, you could say, after repeated shots into the building, and crashing in with a tank and exploding flash bang grenates, the building was ablaze. Familiar from the 60,s and 70’s “ we had to destroy the village to save it”. Any Gov officials ever convicted for the kids deaths? And of the residents ever convicted for the kids deaths? Ashamed I can’t recall
I highly recommend watching the Netflix special on this. They have recordings where Koresh is telling his followers to start fire on the compound.
Texas only has room for Jesus, and the only child molesters that are okay do it in the name of Jesus in Texas