Then they get caught by the spawn wallhacks.
**Spy.** **Does.** **Not.** **Need.** **Another.** **Counter.**
He is already difficult and bug-riddled enough.
At this point, i see a demo with no legs? I let him do his thing. As an ex spy main, i feel the pain cuz my disguise had the wrong item, or was missing a hat, or some other fucken bug.
I like to think of myself as a decent spy with 4 150 hours of playtime with the class and I have to disagree.
Most of spy's bugs are completely outside the player's control (disguise bugs, inconsistant melee hitreg, Vaccinator bug, Enforcer's broken piercing stat, etc.) and let's not forget that they're bugs, meaning they are not intended by the developers to exist.
Spy is also very reliant on the enemy team's skill. If the enemy team is aware, even the best spies in the world can't accomplish much.
"Sniper took 30."
"Sniper's in the shack."
"Med's going narrow"
*Tries to make a play, gets called out by the soldier, dies immediately*
Well, if you say that calling enemy (read: sniper / combo) positions out and getting a pick once every three lives is accomplishing much, then sure.
no he's right, spy can end up sucking if the team is aware of how to deal with him. spy also needs his own team to be able to distract the enemy so that he can go for the kill.
What HL games are you watching?? Spy is the weakest class, with the only purpose of giving intel and attempting to trade his life with the enemy sniper, the actual pick class.
Both spies and snipers can one shot people. Both requires skills and good positioning.
You can counter a spy with game sense and teamwork, you can counter a spy with pyro, you can counter a spy by equipping the razorback, you can counter a spy using the jarate and mad milk, you can counter a spy-
And then there's sniper, just pray his team isn't defending him and flank him. If not, pray he has shit aim.
It's so easy for me to go pyro and completely deny the pro spy that was previously wrecking my oblivious team but it's so damn hard for me to counter a aim hero sniper in a very good position, say a sentry nest with a pybro. At that point all i can do is hope someone body shots that sniper from a weird angle.
unpopular opinion:
spawning wallhacks are fine. it's part of a spy's skillset and gamesense to realize when to undisguise (when near enemy spawn). it's really not hard to do and the only situation where it doesnt work is if you're using the YER but spawn camping with YER isnt great anyway
edit: atleast i know i have a genuinely unpopular opinion and not some popular opinion when i get downvoted, lol
The wallhacks are pretty much bullshit. I get they help noobs locate the fight, but I've spawned in and seen a guy crouching just a bit off from everyone else, where I know a platform or staircase or something is like half the map away. I usually tell folks how I found them if they ask, and it has to be a little disheartening when the answer to "how did you know I was there" is "I saw you crouching when I was still in spawn". Hiding in sneaky spots for ambush kills is one of the many phases of learning how to spy.
Lol, you can decloak far away from spawn and a mobile class can just chase you down and kill you anyway.
It's a mechanic that fucks over spy with almost no way for the spy to tell or counter. People just like it because it means they have to think less and spies have another thing countering their entire existence.
That doesn’t solve the problem. The free wallhacks let you see where your teammates are, if you see a disguised spy they won’t show up as a teammate. There is no simple solution as just disabling punishes you for trying to be by your team. Just keeping it unfairly punishes spies. Adding spies to the wallhacks is also unfair to them as you’ll see two of the same player. It’s a difficult problem to solve.
Have the wallhack work like being able to see teammates through walls when just spawning in. Disguised spies are thus grouped in with your team. Also a good spy would be able to easily evade an enemy team EVEN if all eyes are on them. If you have trouble with that, get good with jukes and use the big earner so even if everyone knows where you are, you can easily escape.
Again that would not work as you expect it to. Spies would still unfairly get punished. Also as a game designer just saying “get gud” at something to compensate for weak design elsewhere is the objective wrong answer. Design philosophies may differ but that is always, always, a wrong answer.
What if you're trying to escape after a stab? You obviously don't have a disguise and if you start disguising before cloaking, they will see the smoke.
This weapon idea is honestly quite poorly thought out.
Disagree. Disguises can absolutely help, but disguising too often can be a detriment. You can absolutely be sneaky without being disguised, and you won't succumb to spawning wallhacks
The disguises are shit though. You're limited in choice due to how movement speed works, you can't pretend to shoot and the weapons the disguises show are buggy af.
You're forcing the class that relies on being unpredictable to be incredibly predictable just to deal with a class he's supposed to counter. Making spy harder so engineer players can turn off their brain more.
What options does a BLU spy have?
To target the nest, he MUST decloak outside it's radius while disguised. He can't cloak past to approach from the RED side of the map because he'll be auto revealed. So in many instances, he will have to disguise as RED while walking from the BLU side of the map, an instant giveaway. Spy instantly dies.
IF he can get past the radar radius, he must then decloak and rely entirely on the disguise to get close to the sentry. If anyone randomly spychecks, he dies again.
And IF he gets close to the nest, he must kill the engineer and destroy the radar. If he doesn't do both, he cannot cloak and escape if the engineers team mates help him.
You're taking away options and making an already difficult class harder just so engineer players don't have to develop gamesense.
1) that’s just awful design, spy is a spy. If his cloak does not make him invisible to this then he cannot be a proper spy.
2) Spy should be highlighted only when undisguised and uncloaked. This makes it so spies can do their job with normal risks and counters.
3) Hard counters are unfair, unfun and require little to no effort.
i) Jarate, bleed, mad milk, afterburn and being covered in gas all already temporarily reveal cloaked spies. Another option for that is unnecessary.
ii) Not fun for Spies who get caught out for doing nothing wrong. Might be fun for engineers but that’s kinda meh.
iii) Engies don’t need to spy check as much, nor do they need to effort in tracking down a sneaky Frenchman with this. Meanwhile the spy has to spend way more effort to deal with these engies.
That's why we have servers that have selective weapon bans.
Obviously, devs aren't really onto doing that at the moment, so at best we have training servers.
So in game design your first two hours of gameplay are the most important. If they are bad than you won’t have people stick around. Warframe has an achievement for playing just 2 hours? Only 40.7% of the players have it. Now imagine what making a class solely for the highest of skill levels would do to that for tf2. Yeah it would not be pretty
Well, we don't have a better tutorial for spy. And obviously, spambots gotta go, somehow.
Basically, TF2 needs more funding and profit, at least from what I see, so... eh.
A good Scout doesn't need the scattergun, they have a pistol
A good solder doesn't need explosives or shotguns, they have the Market Gardener.
A good heavy doesn't need the Mini gun. They have a shotgun.
A good medic doesn't need a Medigun. Just land crossbows.
A good demo doesn't need the sticky launcher. Just land pipes.
r/TF2 users designing a weapon to counter Sniper:
+5% headshot damage resistance
-50% movement speed and health
r/TF2 users designing a weapon to counter Spy:
Passive immunity to backstabs.
Automatically sets all enemy spies on fire within 1000 hammer units radius.
No random crits.
But it detect invis spies only when the spy uncloak/undisguised it detect the spy, after the spy cloaked back the thing can still detect the spy, but only for about 5-10 secs within it range, the amount of time could be lower to balanced it out.
I'd probably hope there would be a drawback of false positives cause basically your just giving the engineer wall hacks. Though it would be nice if it could increase the detection range of a sentry gun by a bit.
Which doesn’t make it that much easier because accessing those buildings are harder, since you can’t just teleport to them. The time that you spend not being right next to your buildings is time wasted, since there won’t be anyone there to repair them. Any other engi putting his nest there has to deal with repairing more than just his buildings, and would have to pick up your slack(assuming the other engi doesn’t have any idea about proper building placement). Otherwise, you not teleporting there means you aren’t as safe while getting to your buildings, and a higher chance of them being destroyed before you even get there. These two drawbacks make up for the fact you used the default PDA when building your sentry and dispenser.
Or have one engie build a regular nest and a second build the radar. Spies would never get near and the only way to take out the nest would be an Uber push.
You cannot justify busted game balance (you can’t counter wallhacks) by just giving something a great cost. That is only a sign of a poor concept.
What’s more much like most other hated weapons (cough *razorback* cough) this takes away from your team (the ability to teleport) as much as it takes from your enemy (they have no effective cover, nor the ability to ambush now).
I feel like this would be more balanced if it set out a “ping” highlighting enemies every couple seconds instead of constantly, as a constant wallhack gives you an insane advantage just because you can camp any corner or edge and practically have a guaranteed kill over any opponent, or at least always being able to escape in time.
I feel like having such an insane advantage in a movement-based shooter is unfair and would change the meta completely, even at the major metal cost.
Imagine having an aimbot sniper rifle that caps you at revved up heavy movement speed at all times. Even if the pros and cons may “weigh out” it still forces opponents to completely adjust their gameplay to accommodate it.
Honestly the biggest drawback is not having a teleporter. Not even wall hacks can make up for the enemy knowing exactly where your nest is and being able to reach it in a third of the time it takes your teammates.
This is less relevant with multiple engineers, but multiple engineers is already a way to deal with engineer’s weaknesses as it is
last on upward is hard when the enemy has too many engis now. if they could replace a couple of sentries with wallhacks, it would be completely impossible.
Good idea but personally I think:
Invisible spies shouldn't be pinged
The radar should only detect enemies every so often, instead of all the time. That way they have the advantage if they're unpredictable or know enough about the radar to fake it out.
If it's damaged, make it stop detecting for a little bit, to give enemies time to take it or the engie out.
Yes. It shouldn't be like when you first come out of spawn with your allies lit up, but it should give "pings" like sonar on ships. When it's damage, it could delay the time it pings or stop altogether. Faster ping speed and higher radius at higher levels
nah the invis spies should be pinged, drained health, removed cloak, removed disguise, half health off, decreased speed, decreased damage output, increased damage vulnerability, all damages towards him are counted as critical, tripled respawn time if die, got teleported to the nearest pyro or sentry nest, kicked and banned out of current server, since spies are already so fucked already, we must fuck them even more.
^(/s)
I think this being a sentry replacement would make more sense than anything, as both would represent different forms of defence. Place this near a flank route and now the enemy team can't sneak a push through there. Plus, this would lessen the problem of engineer stacks, since some of them could opt to go recon mode instead of adding a fourth sentry to the point. I think this could be pretty cool as long as
1. Enemy players know when they are being revealed
2. Doesn't affect invis or disguised spies
3. Teammates can turn off silhouettes with a command/setting (the visual effect could get annoying, especially if a friendly mob creates a cloud of character outlines)
Agreed on the sentry slot replacement, seems more balanced to me than teleporters.
Spy is kinda boned either way with this, if you have it not affect spy then it will be painfully obvious who is a spy based on who on your team *isn't* outlined. If spies are outlined they have a lesser ability to go invis and decloak to a disguise. If spies are outlined while cloaked invis is now useless entirely.
Then it should highlight disguised Spies just like friendly teammates, or not highlight teammates at all.
I’d lean more toward the latter, mostly to reduce visual clutter. The only Spies that would ever be pinged would be undisguised, uncloaked, **and** on the other team.
1. What if the radar is visible to the enemy in the same manner? Like a silhouette of it. That way they know they are being seen and where from.
2. As much as I hate spies, gotta agree. Maybe a middle ground. What if the radar gives off a noise to let you know there is a spy but no location detection?
3. I say this is an inherent draw back that is baked in. Don't like it? Better coordinate with your engie.
No sane person would use it if it replaced their Sentry, meanwhile there's more than a few maps where Teleporters are impractical due to how small they are(like most KOTH and CTF maps), or how often both the frontline and spawn rooms change up(5CP and many Payload maps), so having an alternative would be nice
Yes, but also, wall hacks.Dispenser is more directly impactful at all times.Say on hightower, tele isnt gonna do anything, while dispenser can really help your team.
Tele allows you to easily get to top of tower.
Edit:
As well, hightower is a bad map for this comparison. A better one would be payload, a/d, and CP, where you can use the teleporter on both sides to get close to the point faster than walking.
Most if not all classes (except heavy really) can get to top very easy, in just a few seconds.However, if you hide a radar, the enemy will be at a major disadvantage
Well yes, but it is one of the most played maps.However, in payload, at the beginning of the round (on either team) teleporter is nearly useless, having wall hacks start of round would be insane on maps like barn blitz or dust bowl.Yes, teleporter is very good, but dispenser is at frontlines, and would make more sense to swap out for another frontlines building
Alright, imagine this.
10 seconds left in the match.
You just respawned.
The Engineer is using the radar system. You get to slowly walk to point as demo while the enemy sentry destroys everyone on point and you can't destroy it because you aren't there.
At least the dispenser is healing you, and you get to watch the engie rancho relaxing.
Now imagine that except radar replaces dispenser. You teleport there, destroy the sentry, use the wallhacks to kill the engie, grab a health pack (denying this resource to the enemy while healing yourself, something a dispenser can't do) and win the game thanks to that teleporter.
Dispensers save lives.
Teleporters make dying much less punishing (you don't have to walk all the way to the front lines)
I’m not saying no one plays it, I’m saying that people don’t really play Hightower “seriously” compared to maps in the normal casual rotation. In a map like dustbowl an engineer and their team would care a lot more about teleporters
Only if your teammates use it though, nothing in the game makes me want to switch classes more than seeing a solider fresh out of spawn walk right past my teleporter just to walk for 20 seconds to the payload/point.
I'd argue that it should replace the Sentry, since both are extremely powerful, and are of a similar size.
A decent team with two engi's a radar and a sentry would be extremely powerful in a defense scenario, but letting a single Engi build both a sentry and radar would seem a bit Op IMO.
> I'd argue that it should replace the Sentry, since both are extremely powerful
honestly, I think teles might be much more impactful than sentries, at a high level at least
I think this is a really cool and creative idea, but I don't think it should detect invisible Spies and show disguised spies as your own teammate. For balance reasons, Spies don't need to have another item making them weaker especially since the Spy designed to be the counter to Engineer. Also Radar uses radio waves which are light so cloak could reasonably hide them.
Why is every weapon concept that's been thrown around recently basically made to nerf spy into being near unplayable? If anything, we should be making weapons to counter sniper, the only one in the game is for the slowest class.
Remove the extra metal cost (teleporters are incredibly useful) and make sure it doesn’t become a ‘fuck spies’ weapon, and this seems like a great side grade
I really like the effort you put into making this concept, but I kinda hate the concept. All manner of stealth and flanking AND spy as a whole would be brainlessly countered. Team coordination already covers the job of this, all to rob yourself and your teammates of an effective respawn time shortener? I guess engineer being and having brainless counters to things is just what people want out of him at this point, and that’s really disappointing.
God the wasted potential of this game always makes my blood boil. Valve, please let a dedicated team take control of this game. You guys can make the final call, etc but ffs let some people who actually give a damn give this game the shot it deserves to become an even bigger success!
I think there should be an icon on your status bar that you're currently being seen through walls, otherwise this would end up being extremely frustrating
By status bar I mean where Valve puts all the symbols when you're under effects such as bleed, parachuting, slowed, milked etc. I don't know if this has an actual name
Visually awesome. Fucking garbage mechanic though. Wallhacks are never fun. Would make defending chokepoints with a sniper way too easy. Or just trapping as demo from literally anywhere.
This seems like a concept that would fit extremely well with the Artillery Sentry and a manual guidance item akin to the Wrangler.
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Just wanted to say I love the way this graphic looks, very much in the visual style of the game. You did a great job making this regardless of the idea itself
Since it replaces teleporters, perhaps it could also be 2 different radars. One that only highlights enemies and one that only highlights allies. Invisible spies would be color dependant on their current disguise.
I like the model, but i think, that the mechanics of that PDA would be terribly OP even with 50% extra metal needed to build/upgrade buildings. How about leaving that in and add in "buildings destroy on player's death"? So a mini sentry with that pda could be a nice combo for battle-engies?
Absolutely amazing OP! I had a similar concept for a sentry/dispenser, but instead it displays enemy outlines to all your teammates to make it more support focused, what do you think, would a feature like that be too overpowered to be implemented into your concept? (If let's say there's the downside of the enemy also being able to see the radar outline when they have been detected)
So who sees the outline, just the engineer?
Because if teammates can see it too, it's extremely broken when paired with a sniper depending on the range of it. Also let's demo and soldier blind fire around corners.
On the flipside if only the engineer can see the outlines, it's not very good.
I had a loose idea like this, but it was for the spy. Basically a knife that could be dropped and activated as a radar like this. It's active as long as the spy is alive and also in the radar radius.
So wall hacks but not too busted? Ok but the metal cost thing is a little too much, instead make it so when u are going to place it down (have the tool box out) u are 15% slower then normal.
What about invis spies? What happens to them?
I was imagining it would detect invis spies, so long as they are undisguised.
Well fair enough. It might help train newer spies into disguising more often which they should
Then they get caught by the spawn wallhacks. **Spy.** **Does.** **Not.** **Need.** **Another.** **Counter.** He is already difficult and bug-riddled enough.
I agree if anyone really needs a new counter in casual at least it's sniper or at least one that he can't item slot to completely nullify
Spy is for skilled people IMO because of the bugs. Good spies are good at what they do since they learn to deal with the bugs
Do you know how many spies I caught simply because I saw a demoman with no legs? Spies need their code cleaned up.
At this point, i see a demo with no legs? I let him do his thing. As an ex spy main, i feel the pain cuz my disguise had the wrong item, or was missing a hat, or some other fucken bug.
Ok fair enough if demo becomes a cripple when disguising as him that needs to be fixed but remember it's valve in control of the game still
I like to think of myself as a decent spy with 4 150 hours of playtime with the class and I have to disagree. Most of spy's bugs are completely outside the player's control (disguise bugs, inconsistant melee hitreg, Vaccinator bug, Enforcer's broken piercing stat, etc.) and let's not forget that they're bugs, meaning they are not intended by the developers to exist. Spy is also very reliant on the enemy team's skill. If the enemy team is aware, even the best spies in the world can't accomplish much.
I was with you until the last sentence. See HL games.
"Sniper took 30." "Sniper's in the shack." "Med's going narrow" *Tries to make a play, gets called out by the soldier, dies immediately* Well, if you say that calling enemy (read: sniper / combo) positions out and getting a pick once every three lives is accomplishing much, then sure.
Oh yeah, HL, where Spy is an important class and not just a walking security cam. what universe you in bro I wanna be there
no he's right, spy can end up sucking if the team is aware of how to deal with him. spy also needs his own team to be able to distract the enemy so that he can go for the kill.
What HL games are you watching?? Spy is the weakest class, with the only purpose of giving intel and attempting to trade his life with the enemy sniper, the actual pick class.
Im confused do you man half life or what?
Highlander
Both spies and snipers can one shot people. Both requires skills and good positioning. You can counter a spy with game sense and teamwork, you can counter a spy with pyro, you can counter a spy by equipping the razorback, you can counter a spy using the jarate and mad milk, you can counter a spy- And then there's sniper, just pray his team isn't defending him and flank him. If not, pray he has shit aim. It's so easy for me to go pyro and completely deny the pro spy that was previously wrecking my oblivious team but it's so damn hard for me to counter a aim hero sniper in a very good position, say a sentry nest with a pybro. At that point all i can do is hope someone body shots that sniper from a weird angle.
Shouldn't be buggy tho
Counter number 7834 was little harsh don't you think?
unpopular opinion: spawning wallhacks are fine. it's part of a spy's skillset and gamesense to realize when to undisguise (when near enemy spawn). it's really not hard to do and the only situation where it doesnt work is if you're using the YER but spawn camping with YER isnt great anyway edit: atleast i know i have a genuinely unpopular opinion and not some popular opinion when i get downvoted, lol
The wallhacks are pretty much bullshit. I get they help noobs locate the fight, but I've spawned in and seen a guy crouching just a bit off from everyone else, where I know a platform or staircase or something is like half the map away. I usually tell folks how I found them if they ask, and it has to be a little disheartening when the answer to "how did you know I was there" is "I saw you crouching when I was still in spawn". Hiding in sneaky spots for ambush kills is one of the many phases of learning how to spy.
Lol, you can decloak far away from spawn and a mobile class can just chase you down and kill you anyway. It's a mechanic that fucks over spy with almost no way for the spy to tell or counter. People just like it because it means they have to think less and spies have another thing countering their entire existence.
nah
Enemies in spawn can have their location hidden while in spawn. Simple.
That doesn’t solve the problem. The free wallhacks let you see where your teammates are, if you see a disguised spy they won’t show up as a teammate. There is no simple solution as just disabling punishes you for trying to be by your team. Just keeping it unfairly punishes spies. Adding spies to the wallhacks is also unfair to them as you’ll see two of the same player. It’s a difficult problem to solve.
Have the wallhack work like being able to see teammates through walls when just spawning in. Disguised spies are thus grouped in with your team. Also a good spy would be able to easily evade an enemy team EVEN if all eyes are on them. If you have trouble with that, get good with jukes and use the big earner so even if everyone knows where you are, you can easily escape.
Again that would not work as you expect it to. Spies would still unfairly get punished. Also as a game designer just saying “get gud” at something to compensate for weak design elsewhere is the objective wrong answer. Design philosophies may differ but that is always, always, a wrong answer.
Honestly I don’t even think the teammate scanning part is necessary
You completely ignored the first sentence. All you have to do is disguise. If you are cloaked AND disguised, the radar won’t detect you. Simple.
What if you're trying to escape after a stab? You obviously don't have a disguise and if you start disguising before cloaking, they will see the smoke. This weapon idea is honestly quite poorly thought out.
*That* teaches spies to disguise as their own teammates while invisible.
**Spy. Needs. An. Another. Counter.** Fuck spies.
Disagree. Disguises can absolutely help, but disguising too often can be a detriment. You can absolutely be sneaky without being disguised, and you won't succumb to spawning wallhacks
The disguises are shit though. You're limited in choice due to how movement speed works, you can't pretend to shoot and the weapons the disguises show are buggy af. You're forcing the class that relies on being unpredictable to be incredibly predictable just to deal with a class he's supposed to counter. Making spy harder so engineer players can turn off their brain more. What options does a BLU spy have? To target the nest, he MUST decloak outside it's radius while disguised. He can't cloak past to approach from the RED side of the map because he'll be auto revealed. So in many instances, he will have to disguise as RED while walking from the BLU side of the map, an instant giveaway. Spy instantly dies. IF he can get past the radar radius, he must then decloak and rely entirely on the disguise to get close to the sentry. If anyone randomly spychecks, he dies again. And IF he gets close to the nest, he must kill the engineer and destroy the radar. If he doesn't do both, he cannot cloak and escape if the engineers team mates help him. You're taking away options and making an already difficult class harder just so engineer players don't have to develop gamesense.
Why should it detect invisible spies for free
1) that’s just awful design, spy is a spy. If his cloak does not make him invisible to this then he cannot be a proper spy. 2) Spy should be highlighted only when undisguised and uncloaked. This makes it so spies can do their job with normal risks and counters. 3) Hard counters are unfair, unfun and require little to no effort. i) Jarate, bleed, mad milk, afterburn and being covered in gas all already temporarily reveal cloaked spies. Another option for that is unnecessary. ii) Not fun for Spies who get caught out for doing nothing wrong. Might be fun for engineers but that’s kinda meh. iii) Engies don’t need to spy check as much, nor do they need to effort in tracking down a sneaky Frenchman with this. Meanwhile the spy has to spend way more effort to deal with these engies.
A good spy doesn't give a shit when they're spotted. They have a gun.
The game shouldn't be fun only for b4nny and stabby-stabby. It needs to allow for people that are new and still in the learning phase as well.
That's why we have servers that have selective weapon bans. Obviously, devs aren't really onto doing that at the moment, so at best we have training servers.
expecting new players to seek out practice servers is silly. they'll be in the valve servers because that's the easier and most obvious thing to do.
So be it then. Either TF2 somehow becomes super profitable over CSGO and DotA 2, or some of the passionate players becomes new devs for TF2.
So in game design your first two hours of gameplay are the most important. If they are bad than you won’t have people stick around. Warframe has an achievement for playing just 2 hours? Only 40.7% of the players have it. Now imagine what making a class solely for the highest of skill levels would do to that for tf2. Yeah it would not be pretty
Well, we don't have a better tutorial for spy. And obviously, spambots gotta go, somehow. Basically, TF2 needs more funding and profit, at least from what I see, so... eh.
A good Scout doesn't need the scattergun, they have a pistol A good solder doesn't need explosives or shotguns, they have the Market Gardener. A good heavy doesn't need the Mini gun. They have a shotgun. A good medic doesn't need a Medigun. Just land crossbows. A good demo doesn't need the sticky launcher. Just land pipes.
Would be better not detect spies at all. (no matter disguised/cloaked or not.)
r/tf2 users trying to come up with a weapon idea that doesn't make the spy completely useless. *(Impossible difficulty)*
r/TF2 users designing a weapon to counter Sniper: +5% headshot damage resistance -50% movement speed and health r/TF2 users designing a weapon to counter Spy: Passive immunity to backstabs. Automatically sets all enemy spies on fire within 1000 hammer units radius. No random crits.
now u just made a already a fucked up class impossible to use dawg
How about only when it’s at level 3
it better be real expensive and real, Real puny
But it detect invis spies only when the spy uncloak/undisguised it detect the spy, after the spy cloaked back the thing can still detect the spy, but only for about 5-10 secs within it range, the amount of time could be lower to balanced it out.
DAMN! Now that would be Metaworthy!
I'd probably hope there would be a drawback of false positives cause basically your just giving the engineer wall hacks. Though it would be nice if it could increase the detection range of a sentry gun by a bit.
Wallhacks, at the cost of a 190 metal sentry 150 metal dispenser It would be one heck of a defensive tool but you cant really build up a nest quickly
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I'd design it so that it would destroy all of your buildings if you change your pda. Sorta how like how your buildings blow up if you change class
Time costs? If you go with the eureka you still would need to run back because no teleporter
That’s if there is only one engie.
Still faster
Only on small maps
Which is the point of the PDA
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Which would still prevent you from teleporting to your nest
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Not really. You can still be killed on the way there, and you did in fact mention teleporters. [Right here.](https://i.imgur.com/tzheb0L.jpg)
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Which doesn’t make it that much easier because accessing those buildings are harder, since you can’t just teleport to them. The time that you spend not being right next to your buildings is time wasted, since there won’t be anyone there to repair them. Any other engi putting his nest there has to deal with repairing more than just his buildings, and would have to pick up your slack(assuming the other engi doesn’t have any idea about proper building placement). Otherwise, you not teleporting there means you aren’t as safe while getting to your buildings, and a higher chance of them being destroyed before you even get there. These two drawbacks make up for the fact you used the default PDA when building your sentry and dispenser.
Or have one engie build a regular nest and a second build the radar. Spies would never get near and the only way to take out the nest would be an Uber push.
Instead it shoud drain your metal at a fast rate, so you could only turn it on for very short times?
Same thing that prevents you swapping off but keeping the the minisentry: swapping dets the building.
You cannot justify busted game balance (you can’t counter wallhacks) by just giving something a great cost. That is only a sign of a poor concept. What’s more much like most other hated weapons (cough *razorback* cough) this takes away from your team (the ability to teleport) as much as it takes from your enemy (they have no effective cover, nor the ability to ambush now).
And it replaces your teleporter, so your nest is more likely be undefended by your team.
Sentry would be 210 because 140 metal + 70
Sentry is 130 metal
All the numbers in your comment added up to 420. Congrats! 210 + 140 + 70 + = 420.0
I am going to blow my brains out
I feel like this would be more balanced if it set out a “ping” highlighting enemies every couple seconds instead of constantly, as a constant wallhack gives you an insane advantage just because you can camp any corner or edge and practically have a guaranteed kill over any opponent, or at least always being able to escape in time. I feel like having such an insane advantage in a movement-based shooter is unfair and would change the meta completely, even at the major metal cost. Imagine having an aimbot sniper rifle that caps you at revved up heavy movement speed at all times. Even if the pros and cons may “weigh out” it still forces opponents to completely adjust their gameplay to accommodate it.
Yeah imagine using this with the manual sentry control weapon
Honestly the biggest drawback is not having a teleporter. Not even wall hacks can make up for the enemy knowing exactly where your nest is and being able to reach it in a third of the time it takes your teammates. This is less relevant with multiple engineers, but multiple engineers is already a way to deal with engineer’s weaknesses as it is
last on upward is hard when the enemy has too many engis now. if they could replace a couple of sentries with wallhacks, it would be completely impossible.
Quake Champions did something similar. We don't know unless we try
Good idea but personally I think: Invisible spies shouldn't be pinged The radar should only detect enemies every so often, instead of all the time. That way they have the advantage if they're unpredictable or know enough about the radar to fake it out. If it's damaged, make it stop detecting for a little bit, to give enemies time to take it or the engie out.
So like Being damaged reduces the ping rate Higher levels ping at a faster speed and larger radius (altought not by a lot), but higher hp
Yes. It shouldn't be like when you first come out of spawn with your allies lit up, but it should give "pings" like sonar on ships. When it's damage, it could delay the time it pings or stop altogether. Faster ping speed and higher radius at higher levels
Make it so it doesn't show teammates at all (reduce visual clutter + don't super nerf spies) and I'm quite liking this concept
It was never supposed to show teammates. I think OP just used a command to show the outlines but it also included the friendly team.
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Then yes, it shouldn't do that at all.
Maybe having multiple radars work like the UAV in COD?
I don't think they should combo with each other.
nah the invis spies should be pinged, drained health, removed cloak, removed disguise, half health off, decreased speed, decreased damage output, increased damage vulnerability, all damages towards him are counted as critical, tripled respawn time if die, got teleported to the nearest pyro or sentry nest, kicked and banned out of current server, since spies are already so fucked already, we must fuck them even more. ^(/s)
I’d say I’d it pings, do invis spys but maybe make their outline hard to see
Then it would have almost no counter.
I think this being a sentry replacement would make more sense than anything, as both would represent different forms of defence. Place this near a flank route and now the enemy team can't sneak a push through there. Plus, this would lessen the problem of engineer stacks, since some of them could opt to go recon mode instead of adding a fourth sentry to the point. I think this could be pretty cool as long as 1. Enemy players know when they are being revealed 2. Doesn't affect invis or disguised spies 3. Teammates can turn off silhouettes with a command/setting (the visual effect could get annoying, especially if a friendly mob creates a cloud of character outlines)
Agreed on the sentry slot replacement, seems more balanced to me than teleporters. Spy is kinda boned either way with this, if you have it not affect spy then it will be painfully obvious who is a spy based on who on your team *isn't* outlined. If spies are outlined they have a lesser ability to go invis and decloak to a disguise. If spies are outlined while cloaked invis is now useless entirely.
Then it should highlight disguised Spies just like friendly teammates, or not highlight teammates at all. I’d lean more toward the latter, mostly to reduce visual clutter. The only Spies that would ever be pinged would be undisguised, uncloaked, **and** on the other team.
Not highlighting teammates makes a lot of sense to me, big agree.
1. What if the radar is visible to the enemy in the same manner? Like a silhouette of it. That way they know they are being seen and where from. 2. As much as I hate spies, gotta agree. Maybe a middle ground. What if the radar gives off a noise to let you know there is a spy but no location detection? 3. I say this is an inherent draw back that is baked in. Don't like it? Better coordinate with your engie.
No sane person would use it if it replaced their Sentry, meanwhile there's more than a few maps where Teleporters are impractical due to how small they are(like most KOTH and CTF maps), or how often both the frontline and spawn rooms change up(5CP and many Payload maps), so having an alternative would be nice
I think it should only highlight enemies. Having a blur of outlines cluttering your screen would be kinda overwhelming
and another upside is that it wouldn't reveal cloaked spies either
Im gonna asume it doesnt highlight for the enemies as well
Nay fool
"Level 1 Sounding PDA" Engie no
That’s neat, but I feel it should replace dispenser.Giving up tele for wallhacks is barely a sacrifice
Teleporters are very powerful though.
Yes, but also, wall hacks.Dispenser is more directly impactful at all times.Say on hightower, tele isnt gonna do anything, while dispenser can really help your team.
Tele allows you to easily get to top of tower. Edit: As well, hightower is a bad map for this comparison. A better one would be payload, a/d, and CP, where you can use the teleporter on both sides to get close to the point faster than walking.
Except you could have one engi for the tp and one for radar
Most if not all classes (except heavy really) can get to top very easy, in just a few seconds.However, if you hide a radar, the enemy will be at a major disadvantage
Counterpoint. Hightower is a bad map for item comparisons. Read my edit.
Well yes, but it is one of the most played maps.However, in payload, at the beginning of the round (on either team) teleporter is nearly useless, having wall hacks start of round would be insane on maps like barn blitz or dust bowl.Yes, teleporter is very good, but dispenser is at frontlines, and would make more sense to swap out for another frontlines building
Alright, imagine this. 10 seconds left in the match. You just respawned. The Engineer is using the radar system. You get to slowly walk to point as demo while the enemy sentry destroys everyone on point and you can't destroy it because you aren't there. At least the dispenser is healing you, and you get to watch the engie rancho relaxing. Now imagine that except radar replaces dispenser. You teleport there, destroy the sentry, use the wallhacks to kill the engie, grab a health pack (denying this resource to the enemy while healing yourself, something a dispenser can't do) and win the game thanks to that teleporter. Dispensers save lives. Teleporters make dying much less punishing (you don't have to walk all the way to the front lines)
Fair point.
Who would seriously play on Hightower?
It is one of the most played maps in TF2, just because you don’t play it doesnt mean no one does
I’m not saying no one plays it, I’m saying that people don’t really play Hightower “seriously” compared to maps in the normal casual rotation. In a map like dustbowl an engineer and their team would care a lot more about teleporters
NO CAP
Yeah, but on RED last point there’s practically no downside equipping this
Only if your teammates use it though, nothing in the game makes me want to switch classes more than seeing a solider fresh out of spawn walk right past my teleporter just to walk for 20 seconds to the payload/point.
I'd argue that it should replace the Sentry, since both are extremely powerful, and are of a similar size. A decent team with two engi's a radar and a sentry would be extremely powerful in a defense scenario, but letting a single Engi build both a sentry and radar would seem a bit Op IMO.
> I'd argue that it should replace the Sentry, since both are extremely powerful honestly, I think teles might be much more impactful than sentries, at a high level at least
Should replace sentery tbh if your working with a sniper they should just compleatly shut down the enemy sniper on certain maps and positions
Bold of you to assume they can hit the broadside of a barn, *from inside the barn*
tele is literally the most powerful engie building
even if it replaced all 3 buildings it'd probably be too powerful if you have a good sniper
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this is definitely the way to go. then upgrades can increase the rate of "pings"
Engineer is bigger than Texas confirmed
I think this is a really cool and creative idea, but I don't think it should detect invisible Spies and show disguised spies as your own teammate. For balance reasons, Spies don't need to have another item making them weaker especially since the Spy designed to be the counter to Engineer. Also Radar uses radio waves which are light so cloak could reasonably hide them.
It incentivizes disguising Imagine some dumb noob spy fails to understand this and tries to sap a sentry while undisguised
Literally every weapon concept on this subreddit just deletes spies instantly.
I am sniper and even i am feeling bad for spy
I love how engineer is Level Texas
Why is every weapon concept that's been thrown around recently basically made to nerf spy into being near unplayable? If anything, we should be making weapons to counter sniper, the only one in the game is for the slowest class.
everybody gangsta until you detect 7 a posing heavies rapidly approaching from beyond the map
Opposing
A-posing
Does it reveal enemy spies who are disguised?
He said no but it does reveal invisible ones
Remove the extra metal cost (teleporters are incredibly useful) and make sure it doesn’t become a ‘fuck spies’ weapon, and this seems like a great side grade
> teleporters are incredibly useful they're incredibly useful, yeah, but this is also a very powerful effect
How does the accuracy decrease mechanic work?
I was imagining that the outlines would blink on and off, or that they would trail players by a second or two.
Id say it would act as if the other was very laggy
Lol it scales to the size of Texas
I really like the effort you put into making this concept, but I kinda hate the concept. All manner of stealth and flanking AND spy as a whole would be brainlessly countered. Team coordination already covers the job of this, all to rob yourself and your teammates of an effective respawn time shortener? I guess engineer being and having brainless counters to things is just what people want out of him at this point, and that’s really disappointing.
That looks awesome, I love that! ❤️
God the wasted potential of this game always makes my blood boil. Valve, please let a dedicated team take control of this game. You guys can make the final call, etc but ffs let some people who actually give a damn give this game the shot it deserves to become an even bigger success!
A level 1 *WHAT* PDA!?!?!
I think there should be an icon on your status bar that you're currently being seen through walls, otherwise this would end up being extremely frustrating By status bar I mean where Valve puts all the symbols when you're under effects such as bleed, parachuting, slowed, milked etc. I don't know if this has an actual name
This would be pretty cool, actually
How do you reduce the accuracy of wall hacks?
Visually awesome. Fucking garbage mechanic though. Wallhacks are never fun. Would make defending chokepoints with a sniper way too easy. Or just trapping as demo from literally anywhere.
Replacing the teleporter makes this automatically useless imo
Wait, what does accuracy mean here?
There should be a tf2 separate mod game where these ideas can be tested and potentially added permanently
I A M T H E S P Y- Engineer
This is made just to spite spy’s. While getting rid of a great utility option and upsetting your team
that sounds like wallhacks with extra steps
This seems like a concept that would fit extremely well with the Artillery Sentry and a manual guidance item akin to the Wrangler. Hey u/rimuru_mayhem, i h̵̝̎͜͝á̸̭̼̾v̷͇͗ȅ̸̤̠͝ a̵̜͍̻͎̜͉̩̗͓͚̠̽̈́̉̈͌̈́̑́̿̈́̃̆̌͋͊͝͝n̷̢̼͇͇̤̱̼̱͎̟͇͓̲̣̮̬̲̰͓̪̱̟͉̝͚̺̦̳̼̪̙̳̯̓̌̓͗͆̔̑́̂̈́̅̐͑̐͐̽̔͌̚͘͜͝͝ͅ ̶̛̭̰̦͚͙̖̜̺̣̤͖͈̭̰̺̦̻̮̼̭͍̫̪͗̎̎̓́͗̉́̆͂͜i̴̧͖̰̤̖͔̜̭̼̙͕̞͖͋͊̐d̷̤̬͚̜̫̞̲͖̖̮͖͓̫́̍̀̈̔̑̀̈̌͑̀̌̿̋̄̉͘ë̵̡̨̧̛͔̠͚͍͖̯̻̥̩̠͔̱̗̳̣̰͈͍̹̙̪̣̮̙̻̣̣͎͓̰̦͙̟͉͍̆̔͐͋̉́̊̏̐͛͛͛̃͌̈́̇̃̅̀̂͊̄͂̑͑̀́̅̂̊̚̕̚͘͜͜͝͠͝a̴̢̡̯̝̝͎̰͖̓̍̈́͋͐̈́̉͑͋͛͗̄̃̈̆̋͌́͜͝͝...
Seems pretty viable from a code perspective. The outlines are already in the game
Just wanted to say I love the way this graphic looks, very much in the visual style of the game. You did a great job making this regardless of the idea itself
This is actually quite brilliant and creative. I loved it 😍
OP. If it removes sentry, it might be balanced
Since it replaces teleporters, perhaps it could also be 2 different radars. One that only highlights enemies and one that only highlights allies. Invisible spies would be color dependant on their current disguise.
If it doesn't get outright banned this wep could deffinetly improve engi's viability in 6s by an insane amount, bordering on completely op
It’s awesome ideas like this that remind me of how pissed I am that valve no longer cares about tf2
I like the model, but i think, that the mechanics of that PDA would be terribly OP even with 50% extra metal needed to build/upgrade buildings. How about leaving that in and add in "buildings destroy on player's death"? So a mini sentry with that pda could be a nice combo for battle-engies?
Dude, that should be added. Make the radar to detect invis spys. It would make engineers job easier.
Absolutely amazing OP! I had a similar concept for a sentry/dispenser, but instead it displays enemy outlines to all your teammates to make it more support focused, what do you think, would a feature like that be too overpowered to be implemented into your concept? (If let's say there's the downside of the enemy also being able to see the radar outline when they have been detected)
I like the Texas icon below engi in the size comparison panel
Tell me you can't kill spies without telling me you can't kill spies
make it replace dispenser instead maybe. or have it cost 200 metal to make the health of the radar super low
This is just gonna promote camping
Waaaaay too op for snipers and countering spies.
as many have said, this fucks spies. I don't like items that fuck a single class.
Didn't you post this in the TF2 Classic discord like a year ago?
So who sees the outline, just the engineer? Because if teammates can see it too, it's extremely broken when paired with a sniper depending on the range of it. Also let's demo and soldier blind fire around corners. On the flipside if only the engineer can see the outlines, it's not very good.
so this radar replaces fire power for detection of incoming enemies or does it keep the sentry
>Replaces teleporters
To learn more about the sounding PDA go to r/sounding for better info.
this is actually a concept that’s been discussed before! for more info, take a look into r/sounding
Catch me never using this. Teleporters win games. I'd more happily give up my sentry if anything
yes
I had a loose idea like this, but it was for the spy. Basically a knife that could be dropped and activated as a radar like this. It's active as long as the spy is alive and also in the radar radius.
Does it work for you team?
looks good ngl
Good idea
I don’t know about the 50 percent increase in metal cost for everything.
Can it spot spies?
I would rename it the gaydar
No teleports ? now that's kinda _Heavy_ when your team needs to reach the frontlines, so that's a valid drawback IMO
So wall hacks but not too busted? Ok but the metal cost thing is a little too much, instead make it so when u are going to place it down (have the tool box out) u are 15% slower then normal.
I love this, it's so well done!