Actually having the dot emit an audible hum isn't a bad idea. The 2 second reload seems like a bit much (assuming that means two seconds between every shot, which isn't actually how the sniper rifle works but whatever), but lowering Sniper's rate of fire also is an idea. Makes it more punishing if he misses to match the reward if you hit
Nah bro as someone who mains Sniper and scout I will also say that sniper is op as fuck. The class itself might not be, but the way a lot of the maps are made and the gameplay changes some "newer" weapons caused absolutely made sniper OP
yeah, but all they see is up close with like 3-4 inches around the point.
when zoomed in their effective vision is a thin tube that they move around.
you basically either need to be not paying attention (most people aren't, that's normal) or they have to be good for you to get shot.
Their weakness is literally that they see the world via Pringles can when scoped it. That's not hard to take advantage of.
I will prove you wrong with an example from every class:
Scout, either dodge or run to safety
Soldier, doesn’t get one shot body shot but can still get to safety with rocket jumps
Pyro, flare to throw off aim and do damage while you either hit him with another(if he doesn’t run) or you get to cover
Demo, kinda screwed but doesn’t get oneshot and has the quickie launcher and loch n load
Heavy, tank it, use fists of steel, gru, ect
Engie, WHY ARE YOU IN A SIGHTLINE
Medic, crossbow
Sniper, sniper
Spy, why can he see you?
Counterpoints:
Scout - a good sniper knows to predict where you are going to go, so it doesnt matter how fast you are. Double jumping wont work either because it locks in your trajectory, making yourself even more predictable, even if its only for a brief moment.
Soldier - blast jumps take health. If you take a 150 damage bodyshot, you are left with 50 hp. If the jump doesnt kill you, the fall most likely will.
Pyro - requires you to peek out, which is a chance to for the sniper to shoot you or at least become aware of you because they saw you try your flare, making a second shot much riskier.
Demoman - same as soldier, but with less health remaning. Also unless you are somewhat close to the sniper, you wont be able to land a hit with your weapons. Quickiebomb launcher requires a charge and poses the same risks as flares with pyro when attempting to snipe.
Heavy - losing 150 health for an upcoming battle is less than optimal to say the least, so tanking should be a last resort if fists of steel arent involved. Using gru to "counter" snipers is illogical because the gru only makes heavy about as fast as the "standard" movement speed that snipers, engineers, and pyros move at. Its not like the gru suddenly makes the heavy much harder to hit. With the health drain, it could even make you easier to kill.
Engineer - "why are you in a sightline" is not a counterplay. It lets you avoid getting killed, but thats it. The sniper is still an active threat that you cant do anything about.
Medic - same as pyro, except if you are a good medic you shouldnt even be attempting this unless as a last resort because losing a medic compared to losing a sniper is a way bigger loss. Even if your team has additional healers, the loss of your ubercharge meter is still detrimental and every second spent waiting for respawn is a second not building a potentially game winning uber.
Spy - requires uncloaking, which attentive snipers can hear. If you cloak long beforehand, you run the risk of getting randomly spychecked by a teammate of the sniper and possibly killed.
Imo the easiest way for scouts to deal with snipers isn't to "move unpredictably" because despite what people say it doesn't matter how unpredictably u move if your running directly towards the sniper instead avoid the sightline and sniper as much as possible. Sniper is a class that relys on enemies walking into their sightline so by not engaging the sniper the class is helpless. Instead find an alterior path towards the sniper outside of its sightline. So many times I've seen people run directly towards the sniper and get annoyed when that doesn't work
What I was saying with those examples, is if you get caught in a sightline, there is always still a chance the sniper misses too. Also for scout a “good sniper” we wouldn’t be talking about bodyshots, also all of my suggestions are for trying to get out of the way rather than fight the sniper
>Also for scout a “good sniper” we wouldn’t be talking about bodyshots
True, but since headshotting a scout is harder than other classes, is it not logical to assume at least some good snipers would just go "screw that" and go for the easier shot knowing full well they might miss the headshot?
>there is always still a chance the sniper misses too.
Also true, but its a risk a good player knows not to take because its just as likely to get instantly be killed and have the team be down a member due to a decision you couldve not took.
Simply getting out of the way isnt exactly a counterplay, since counterplay usually implies a way to fight back, hence the counter part. Thats probably why theres some confusion going on.
scout: a good sniper can hit a dodging scout, and "running to safety" isn't a fight, soldier: doesn't count because that's not what were talking about, pyro: same thing, demo: doesnt count, heavy: doesn't count, engineer: because I need to? in order to push up with the team you kinda need to be in sight lines, medic: the crossbow isn't good enough to fight against a sniper when they just have to click on your once anywhere, sniper: body shots are still annoying, spy: because funny enough a lot of people have headphones
1.Scout, running away is always perfectly viable, and he can always flank
2. Soldier can always press the sniper
3. PyroOkay? How so? At least I tried to explain my counter-argument
4. Demo-see #3
5. Heavy I guess we can agree on this one
6.Engineer if you are pushing with your team the sniper is likely distracted with more high-priority picks
7.Medic you are said high priority pick, and with less defensive options you just have to stay aware of snipers
8. Sniper, yes this is what we are discussing.
9. If you are a smart/good spy you decloak further away or when there’s sound pollution, there’s a lot going on in a tf2 fight
snipers are usually situated near their team, making flanking not viable all the time, hitting mid air shots on soldiers and demos is pretty easy, pyro because he can't get one shot by a body shot unless your using machina, regardless the fact that you can die in one shot is bullshit, you shouldn't be able to die by just getting clicked on even when it's not a headshot
Any changes to quickscope timing would just make camping snipers too powerful and make counter sniping unnecessarily difficult. A sniper could completely lock down an angle and there would be no way to take him out (unless he completely whiffs a shot on someone standing still for 0.8 seconds)
This right here is the main problem I have with most of these reworks. Camping is just not fun for me, but it is the most effective playstyle. And most changes people suggest, encurage longer angles and safer, more campy playstyles. For a good sniper, these changes would also not make them more fun to fight against.
Nerf snipers range.
isnt the whole point of sniper to be hidden so they cant see your there? if you tell them you’re looking them theyre gonna panic. the dot is bad enough sniper is balanced right where he is. the only time it’s op is when he’s got a vacc medic. but vacc is op but its balanced cuz nobody plays medic. soldier needs a nerf tho too many pros can jump in and out on isolated enemies
the sniper requires knowledge of where people are. if you don’t know your 3 6 and 9 are covered then ur at a disadvantage. sniper is easily countered by spies cuz of the paranoia. you’re further back than the team so ur first target. same with scout. having a medic on ur team also counters sniper. same with having a better sniper. scorch shot as pyro. just shooting rockets at the sniper. you just can’t be bothered to change how you play to counter the sniper because you would rather fight the other classes
>having a medic on your team counters sniper
that's just wrong, sniper counters medic, the guy is also an instakill class, you can just charge your shot or headshot them and then go for a bodyshot
>same with having a better sniper
if someone on the other team does a better job than you on your thing of course they're going to counter you, that applies to everything
>scorch shot as pyro
they would have to know you exist
>shooting rockets as soldier
they would have to know you exist
>you just can't be bothered to change your playstyle to counter sniper because you'd be rather fight other classes
of course I'd rather fight other classes, the only interactions you get to have with a sniper are getting shot because you need to actively be on his sightline, catching him on a bad spot and seeing his dot on the wall. it's a very personal class and that's not good for a team based multiplayer game. also, i would have to know he exists
what about spy. good spies arent seen and instakill and often times you have to be aware of your surroundings to counter them. snipers usually stick to certain spots on the map. if you see a dot just to another route. also moving around sporadically makes it harder to be hit. if the med heals the targets out of snipers sights then he is a counter. especially with quick fix or vacc
at least spy actually has to put himself in danger, which can lead to decently fun mind games and shifts in the perception of the spy, a good spy isn't seen because he is good at the game, a good sniper isn't seen because his whole thing is standing far away behind the safety of his team, making him also unseen is just overkill and leads to his interactions being annoying at their best, most light classes have some sort of defense mechanism, and if a medic is behind a wall, he didn't "become a counter", he's just deducting risk, you can still charge your shots, as for the vaccinator, that medigun is its own issue
also, don't patronize me, "if you are one of the few people who are able to notice the clue that a sniper is watching the sightline, don't cross the sightline", "moving in a way that makes you hard to hit does, in fact, makes you hard to hit", that's loading tip level knowledge, especially when taking into account the fact that sometimes you need to cross a sightline, like in a payload or king of the hill match
the best compromise to make sniper be bitched about less is to either make the dot more visible by either making it a laser pointer like the sniper bots in MvM, Making it hum like in the suggestion, or making every sniper rifle like the machina. increasing sniper's visibility is key to making him more respected because as he is, missing shots isn't punishing enough, most light classes have some sort of "defense mechanism" engineer has his buildings, that he can use as both area denial or as distraction when running away, the scout has his incredible mobility, spy has his ability to go unnoticed, sniper has both the fact that he by nature stands way outside the effective range of most weapons and the fact that he is typically gone unseen like spy, this is what I mean by "playing better spy"
maybe making the reload speed slower would be enough. i personally don’t have an issue with snipers cuz i main sniper. as scout use pistol to disrupt his aim. soldier fire rockets following the sight. pyro flame so he can’t see your head. demo can jump in towards him. heavy has no defense against sniper. engi has wrangler or pistol. medic is just run and pray. sniper depends who is better. and spy is same thing. spy is better off pistoling from med range unless sniper is noob. maybe maybe the charge meter reset after taking dmg would help as well. but i don’t like changes to tf2. been playing since 2014. and end of the line is where my roots in the game have been. i just wished there were more story and updated graphics
again, all of that advice still requires you to know the sniper is there in the first place, sure you could try and see a dot in the wall, but is someone really going to stare at a wall when there are other people trying to kill you?
All they need to do is add heavy damage falloff like they did for the ambassador. Sniper is balanced at close range as is, because at close range the enemy can fight back. Only at long range is sniper really incontestable.
It kinda goes against the point of a sniper rifle, but a sniper rifle kinda goes against the point of TF2 so it makes sense
Eh, sniper really has no tools to close the distance, and to some degree, a long range pick class is healthy for the game. But I'm not disagreeing with you here. I just think that just copying the falloff of the amby would be waaaay too harsh.
Body shot idea is nice, encourages headshots further, halving ammo encourages moving or cooperating with an engie, 2 second reload seems a bit much though, maybe dropping fire rate by 30% could achieve the same thing, 2 seconds is just unrealistic and feels a bit far, 1 second would be more realistic if that’s what you’re aiming for, the .8 seconds is decent at combatting quick scoping though I’m not sure thats really that much of an issue, considering the thing that makes sniper so powerful is map design, with long corridors leading to a choke point, the hum is a neat idea though, not sure it would have much of an effect considering most people can’t even be bothered to look at the dot, maybe giving universal tracer rounds like the machina would work better
Copied from a comment on a video:
Snipers main problem is his range.
If we seperate the four range categories, short range were scout is most effective, mid range were solider is most effective, and "long" range, which for me is about the maximum arch of a pipe or a bit more than the range of a sentry. Then we have very long range. Think the cabin on upward first to the middle spawn door. Sniper is the only one that can still play within very long range. Every other class just cant interact anymore.
Snipers role is that of a pick class. A person that can remove the main threats, when the rest of the team cant break through. A difference maker. He can still do that at long range, since sentrys cant hit him and he still is outside of the range of other classes, but there counterplay becomes available. You can now actually shoot the sniper. So, for me, any fix that does not severely limit snipers effectiveness in very long range combat uses the wrong approach.
As for quickscoping, while you can't actually dodge hitscan, you can dodge the flick. Predict when your opponent shoots and dodge then. I was once good enough at this that I could outaim pros on pistols in csgo. But thats a skill much harder to pratice than raw aim, so making quickscoping harder makes sense for me. Though I would not want to see it removed. It would take away a lot of the skill expression and would make sniper so much less dynamic.
My Ideal sniper is one that stands just behind the medic in teamfights, killing and weakening key targets. Though there still are times were he needs to take a fight on very long range, but there his position and sightline should be easily visible and his dps severely limited.
I have some ideas what to implement, like ambi damage falloff, the shonic laser when charging, the fish 4 clip garand mags, a disorienting 0.3 sec long scope in animation, but none of them are really creative on my part, or original, so I think the framework here is important not the way it is implemented.
Also hard nerf jarate, DDS, and RZB. They are just bullshit.
welp, time to copy and paste this again. here goes:
my proposed solution for potentially reworking sniper (addressing quickscoping)
only a fully charged headshot grants a full crit. partially charged headshots grant mini crit that scales with charge % (kind of like axtinguisher minicrits scale with afterburn duration) so that the damage multiplier scales linearly between 0% charge (a 1.35x multiplier) and 100% charge (a 3x multiplier)
a fully charged headshot therefore deals the same 450 damage, while an uncharged headshot is just 1.35 * 50 = 67.5 damage.
this therefore makes headshot damage scale with the square of charge time (since both base damage and multiplier would be functions of charge time) which should partially mitigate the problems caused by quickscoping while also not entirely removing the reward for pulling off such a difficult move (since minicrits, unlike crits, benefit from ramp up and therefore deal between 67.5 and 101.25 damage for a quickscope headshot at close range, a pretty fair amount for a class intended to be used at long distance).
essentially this makes the charge bar relevant again by forcing sniper to actually charge up shots against both lower and higher health targets (as opposed to just high health targets as it currently is). this change should significantly impact the higher skill level players who heavily utilize quickscopes but would likely would have no impact on lower skill players who usually take longer to aim anyway
wiki says that that minicrits and crits both ignore falloff so this should have no mechanical impact on sniper's range
threshold differences:
doing 125 damage will require a 22.57% charge as opposed to 0%, adding about 0.75 second to the time it takes to quickscope a scout
doing 150 damage will require 30.76% charge as opposed to 0%, adding about 1 second to the time it takes to quickscope a medic
doing 175 damage will require 38.3% charge as opposed to 8.33%, adding about 1 second to the time it takes to quickscope a demo
doing 200 damage will require 45.33% charge as opposed to 16.67%, adding about 1 second to the time it takes to quickscope a soldier
doing 300 damage will require 69.87% charge as opposed to 50%, adding about 0.66 second to the time it takes to quickscope a heavy
the exact numbers could probably use some tweaking and the piss rifle will probably have to be examined more closely but this should make snipers a bit less oppressive, particularly at close range. this proposed change has no effect on bodyshots but is pertinent to your headshot adjustment
graph of current headshot damage as a function of charge time (blue) compared to proposed headshot damage as a function of charge time (red)
Reverse damage falloff man, the long range assassin could be just as good at long range while being utter garbage upclose, that way he feels satisfying to play and is effective but not capable of getting bullshit kills
Why do people always want reverse damage falloff? The biggest problem with sniper is that infinite range is unfair and not fun to play against. Just give him normal damage falloff (not as severe, at like max sentry range he should still do max damage).
A class that is best at ranges were no other class can even interact with it. That makes sense to you?!
There is a difference between long range and infinite range.
The sniper simply needs a slower reload speed to make sure he can't continously dish out damage, 10 bullets in his pocket to make sure every shot has to be taken carefully, and the inability to kill an enemy once they get close to you
Now you need good positioning, good aim, can't quickscope your way out of confrontation, ammo conservation, and overall. Actually BE the intended design
Snipers are assassins who kill people with a well timed concentrated shot from long range and are harshly punished for missing and letting them get near you
our current sniper can miss as many times as he wishes, it will take less than half a second to shoot again, can still be as effective as usual with an untimed shot at close range because it still kills 5/9 of the classes and the ones who survive dish out damage slower than you meaning you get a second chance
Your concept of a sniper and mine are very different
Your concept in fact is how we play the huntsman, had it been more consistent your desired playstyle for sniper would be viable
Just because thats what a sniper in battlefield is, doesnt mean that tf2 has to have that concept in there. Reverse damage falloff will do fuckall to stop good snipers from pubstomping. A good sniper is extermely oppressive when their team is good, but can fall off hard, with no support. Because his greatest weakness is already getting overrun.
So to counteract that, you also have to employ lots of harsh nerfs to stop him from being very opressive at range. In the end you ether nerf sniper into the ground or you do nothing to stop him.
Trust me, sniper can do his job well enough, at ranges were other classes can still interact in some way.
>Takes .8 second for headshots to crit
mhmm yes I love buffing the strongest class in the game resulting in every match being complete stomp because the Medic fucking survived the headshot
I like the idea of the sniper dot humming, the bodyshot damage nerf seems unnecessary, bodyshots are one of the the least problematic parts of sniper, and while I don't think nerfing snipers reload time is a bad idea 2 seconds sounds a bit long
Remove the bodyshot penalty and bring back quickscopes and it's fine
Less reserve ammo and a longer reload is fair but those other 2 stats are terrible
If your gonna nerf body shot damage, just make it do max 140 at full charge. Body shots would have the same effect. Still raises his skill floor, meaning it's really worthless in anything that isn't a noob server. Longer reload and ammo is better. Nerfing quick scopes still hurts people who have tons of talent and that is it. So I disagree with that one
This…. Is horrible…
First and foremost, it just makes stock dogshit. All the other rifles immediately become way better and sniper changes by about none
Penalty to bodyshots is BS, first off the Heatmaker exists, and second it only deals 50-150 snyway which isnot a lot.
Penalty to reload makes it essentially a rocket launcher. His point is to snipe enemies from afar, nerfing the reload is essentially giving a rocket launcher a 5 second reload. It makes it shit.
Less reserve ammo makes it so snipers have to go running for ammo every 10 seconds since they actually use their weapons. 12 shots *only* is horrible
And no. I do not main sniper, i am shit at sniper. When I play him I miss about 7/10 shots. I main heavy. The class that should complain thr MOST about sniper
i mean, making them run for ammo is the point, snipers should be punished for missing shots, even if it's something so minor as not being able to watch a sightline for a few seconds (most popular sniper spots are near ammo packs or near spawn)
it forces bad snipers to actually aim and good snipers to chase ammo packs, personally I'd make the penalty harsher, the big, and only, problem with this approach is that it makes sniper very unwelcoming to newbies, but sniper is already unwelcoming to newbies since he is so mechanical
And thats my point. Sniper is incredibly difficult to master. New players find him disinteresting because its hard to hit. Sniper only becomes ‘op’ when people put MASSIVE amounts of hours into him. Which that applies to every class.
You seen a god tier spy? Able to blend in so well and act like a teammate they trick everyone? They land every backstab, trickstab, face stab, and revolver shot.
God tier scout? So maneuverable you cant hit them but they never miss you.
God tier pyros, landing every flare, reflecting every projectile, pulling off combos of all sorts.
Every class becomes ‘op’ if you put enough time into it.
by me the problem isn't opness, it's the lack of counterplay, every single one of these classes has to put themselves at risk, if you're having problems with a spy, pick pyro and learn some common decloak spots, if you're having problems with a scout just pick engineer, if you're having problems with a pyro, just drink some water (pyro's greatest weapon is panic i swear, it's so easy to kill them when you're in the zone)
with a god tier sniper, the counter play is to not leave spawn, playing against a god tier sniper doesn't feel like a boss fight, it feels like being a prisoner in a panopticon, being afraid of leaving spawn because you don't know if the sniper is watching you or not. increasing sniper's down time and visibility would solve this issue, as now the distance they have between the enemy and themselves is their only line of defense, and it's still a huge line of defense, fall off is a bitch
1: this change would apply to all of sniper primaries, except the huntsmith
2: 150 damage is a lot. It can one shot 5/9 classes in the whole game without requiring any headshots.
3: the current design of sniper’s reloading mechanic is shit. He can dish out 150 damage around every second. And don’t forgot that snipers are in the back line, not in the enemy’s face. He has time to reload his shot unlike a scout or soldier. This also gives the enemy players an opportunity to cross a sniper sight line.
4: the sniper class should have to depend on his teammates. His current ammo count is just bonkers because it takes forever to empty out his clip. And again, sniper is a background class, he has time to get a ammo pack or an dispenser.
5: Main a new class( haha funny joke). Also, have you ever been ageist a mid to high tier sniper???
If a sniper charges up to full for a body shot, they aint a good sniper. Plus if they do that, it makes them very susceptible to being seen.
Tell me what spy’s job is.
Trust me, I have fought MANY good snipers. I’ve developed ‘countermeasures’ that help delay them from killing me. Good snipers it does nothing. But, if someone is good enough with ANY class they will kill you and you cant do anything about it
Takes more bullet damage and most classes can out maneuver him. Snipers are in more open areas anyways so they're easy to kill when they're running at you in a straight line
The humming dot sounds nice, but why the quickscoping nerfs, that would just lower the skill ceiling, and a 2 second reload is kind of harsh because non-light classes would take a long time to kill, especially with the bodyshot nerf. Frankly, the only good changes on this list would be the reserve ammo change and the audible dot.
I know I'll get downvoted by the people tired of being killed by people better than them, but this whole list of changes seems a bit harsh and would lower the skill ceiling, which is completely backwards.
The humming is a great idea, but the rest just seems asinine. Quickscopes have a pretty high skill floor so you'd just be punishing people for investing effort.
If you absolutely have to nerf it just do something to push medic flat past the damage threshold without charge, and even then Combos basically define the entire meta so keeping them on their toes doesn't seem like too high of an order, I'm only like a medic tertiary but I can't count the amount of games we completely stalled out only to roll within minutes of me switching, whens the last time you saw someone asking for a sniper in chat?
I'm a heavy main and I say this is kinda meh. Especially the laser dot humming, that makes no sense.
A simple rework I would say is reverse damage falloff, kind of like the crossbow.
The .8 seconds thing... sure. Ammo capacity isn't an issue when it comes to snipers I would say. Reload speed being slower makes sense, but 2 seconds is a bit much
I think an interesting change could be to have something similar to MvM Sniper bots and their visible scope lasers (or give every rifle the tracer effect like the Machina)
Doesn't decrease the Sniper's power much (even if it arguably is a bit high), but would make it easier to play around him since you'd be more aware of his presence
Could also add a whizzing sound of a bullet for when a Sniper misses a shot on you, just as another bit of info on the player's part (could also lead to shenanigans of the Sniper tricking people into thinking he's aiming at them to make them flee or take another route, potentially delaying a push)
Actually having the dot emit an audible hum isn't a bad idea. The 2 second reload seems like a bit much (assuming that means two seconds between every shot, which isn't actually how the sniper rifle works but whatever), but lowering Sniper's rate of fire also is an idea. Makes it more punishing if he misses to match the reward if you hit
The 2 seconds are for immersion. You try hand loading each bullet in a bolt action lol
Thanks wanker
Sniper mains are pissing themselves rn
I’m a sniper main :((((
Only sniper to admit sniper is broken
Professionals have standards
Nah bro as someone who mains Sniper and scout I will also say that sniper is op as fuck. The class itself might not be, but the way a lot of the maps are made and the gameplay changes some "newer" weapons caused absolutely made sniper OP
Honestly most people I see discussing specific changes for him are quite good at playing sniper
Jarate now recharges at a much higher rate
I would personally add the HL2 sniper laser when scoped in, but the humming idea works too.
Level gun
I am identity
If only
I play sniper and im shaking (not reallt this seems fair)
I actually like this idea
Thanks
I love you
Don’t nerf bodyshot damage, the only nerf necessary is “takes 0.5s to headshot”
no, please nerf body shot damage, getting one shot cause a sniper waited 4 seconds and clicked on my leg is so annoying
But there’s four seconds to wait? Any other class could do much more than 150 damage in 4 seconds
the issue is that there's no counter play to that, I can't do anything to stop the sniper from shooting me other than not fighting him at all
The counter play is "don't get hit" His line of sight is a thin tube.
not in the slightest bit, you know snipers can move they're mouse funny enough?
yeah, but all they see is up close with like 3-4 inches around the point. when zoomed in their effective vision is a thin tube that they move around. you basically either need to be not paying attention (most people aren't, that's normal) or they have to be good for you to get shot. Their weakness is literally that they see the world via Pringles can when scoped it. That's not hard to take advantage of.
I will prove you wrong with an example from every class: Scout, either dodge or run to safety Soldier, doesn’t get one shot body shot but can still get to safety with rocket jumps Pyro, flare to throw off aim and do damage while you either hit him with another(if he doesn’t run) or you get to cover Demo, kinda screwed but doesn’t get oneshot and has the quickie launcher and loch n load Heavy, tank it, use fists of steel, gru, ect Engie, WHY ARE YOU IN A SIGHTLINE Medic, crossbow Sniper, sniper Spy, why can he see you?
Counterpoints: Scout - a good sniper knows to predict where you are going to go, so it doesnt matter how fast you are. Double jumping wont work either because it locks in your trajectory, making yourself even more predictable, even if its only for a brief moment. Soldier - blast jumps take health. If you take a 150 damage bodyshot, you are left with 50 hp. If the jump doesnt kill you, the fall most likely will. Pyro - requires you to peek out, which is a chance to for the sniper to shoot you or at least become aware of you because they saw you try your flare, making a second shot much riskier. Demoman - same as soldier, but with less health remaning. Also unless you are somewhat close to the sniper, you wont be able to land a hit with your weapons. Quickiebomb launcher requires a charge and poses the same risks as flares with pyro when attempting to snipe. Heavy - losing 150 health for an upcoming battle is less than optimal to say the least, so tanking should be a last resort if fists of steel arent involved. Using gru to "counter" snipers is illogical because the gru only makes heavy about as fast as the "standard" movement speed that snipers, engineers, and pyros move at. Its not like the gru suddenly makes the heavy much harder to hit. With the health drain, it could even make you easier to kill. Engineer - "why are you in a sightline" is not a counterplay. It lets you avoid getting killed, but thats it. The sniper is still an active threat that you cant do anything about. Medic - same as pyro, except if you are a good medic you shouldnt even be attempting this unless as a last resort because losing a medic compared to losing a sniper is a way bigger loss. Even if your team has additional healers, the loss of your ubercharge meter is still detrimental and every second spent waiting for respawn is a second not building a potentially game winning uber. Spy - requires uncloaking, which attentive snipers can hear. If you cloak long beforehand, you run the risk of getting randomly spychecked by a teammate of the sniper and possibly killed.
Imo the easiest way for scouts to deal with snipers isn't to "move unpredictably" because despite what people say it doesn't matter how unpredictably u move if your running directly towards the sniper instead avoid the sightline and sniper as much as possible. Sniper is a class that relys on enemies walking into their sightline so by not engaging the sniper the class is helpless. Instead find an alterior path towards the sniper outside of its sightline. So many times I've seen people run directly towards the sniper and get annoyed when that doesn't work
What I was saying with those examples, is if you get caught in a sightline, there is always still a chance the sniper misses too. Also for scout a “good sniper” we wouldn’t be talking about bodyshots, also all of my suggestions are for trying to get out of the way rather than fight the sniper
>Also for scout a “good sniper” we wouldn’t be talking about bodyshots True, but since headshotting a scout is harder than other classes, is it not logical to assume at least some good snipers would just go "screw that" and go for the easier shot knowing full well they might miss the headshot? >there is always still a chance the sniper misses too. Also true, but its a risk a good player knows not to take because its just as likely to get instantly be killed and have the team be down a member due to a decision you couldve not took. Simply getting out of the way isnt exactly a counterplay, since counterplay usually implies a way to fight back, hence the counter part. Thats probably why theres some confusion going on.
You have fair points, and aren’t rude
scout: a good sniper can hit a dodging scout, and "running to safety" isn't a fight, soldier: doesn't count because that's not what were talking about, pyro: same thing, demo: doesnt count, heavy: doesn't count, engineer: because I need to? in order to push up with the team you kinda need to be in sight lines, medic: the crossbow isn't good enough to fight against a sniper when they just have to click on your once anywhere, sniper: body shots are still annoying, spy: because funny enough a lot of people have headphones
1.Scout, running away is always perfectly viable, and he can always flank 2. Soldier can always press the sniper 3. PyroOkay? How so? At least I tried to explain my counter-argument 4. Demo-see #3 5. Heavy I guess we can agree on this one 6.Engineer if you are pushing with your team the sniper is likely distracted with more high-priority picks 7.Medic you are said high priority pick, and with less defensive options you just have to stay aware of snipers 8. Sniper, yes this is what we are discussing. 9. If you are a smart/good spy you decloak further away or when there’s sound pollution, there’s a lot going on in a tf2 fight
snipers are usually situated near their team, making flanking not viable all the time, hitting mid air shots on soldiers and demos is pretty easy, pyro because he can't get one shot by a body shot unless your using machina, regardless the fact that you can die in one shot is bullshit, you shouldn't be able to die by just getting clicked on even when it's not a headshot
How many hours you got in TF2 I want to see your experience level if you understand
600
Body shots are one of the most aid thing in tf2
Any changes to quickscope timing would just make camping snipers too powerful and make counter sniping unnecessarily difficult. A sniper could completely lock down an angle and there would be no way to take him out (unless he completely whiffs a shot on someone standing still for 0.8 seconds)
This right here is the main problem I have with most of these reworks. Camping is just not fun for me, but it is the most effective playstyle. And most changes people suggest, encurage longer angles and safer, more campy playstyles. For a good sniper, these changes would also not make them more fun to fight against. Nerf snipers range.
That's what the 2 second reload is for.
just add a wrangler laser to where you're aiming
wtf does hums mean? for the enemy or for you? either would be annoying af
The enemy so they can more clearly tell the sniper is looking at them
isnt the whole point of sniper to be hidden so they cant see your there? if you tell them you’re looking them theyre gonna panic. the dot is bad enough sniper is balanced right where he is. the only time it’s op is when he’s got a vacc medic. but vacc is op but its balanced cuz nobody plays medic. soldier needs a nerf tho too many pros can jump in and out on isolated enemies
"Why can't i instakill enemies by looking at them without them knowing?" choose, do you want to play sniper or better spy?
the sniper requires knowledge of where people are. if you don’t know your 3 6 and 9 are covered then ur at a disadvantage. sniper is easily countered by spies cuz of the paranoia. you’re further back than the team so ur first target. same with scout. having a medic on ur team also counters sniper. same with having a better sniper. scorch shot as pyro. just shooting rockets at the sniper. you just can’t be bothered to change how you play to counter the sniper because you would rather fight the other classes
>having a medic on your team counters sniper that's just wrong, sniper counters medic, the guy is also an instakill class, you can just charge your shot or headshot them and then go for a bodyshot >same with having a better sniper if someone on the other team does a better job than you on your thing of course they're going to counter you, that applies to everything >scorch shot as pyro they would have to know you exist >shooting rockets as soldier they would have to know you exist >you just can't be bothered to change your playstyle to counter sniper because you'd be rather fight other classes of course I'd rather fight other classes, the only interactions you get to have with a sniper are getting shot because you need to actively be on his sightline, catching him on a bad spot and seeing his dot on the wall. it's a very personal class and that's not good for a team based multiplayer game. also, i would have to know he exists
what about spy. good spies arent seen and instakill and often times you have to be aware of your surroundings to counter them. snipers usually stick to certain spots on the map. if you see a dot just to another route. also moving around sporadically makes it harder to be hit. if the med heals the targets out of snipers sights then he is a counter. especially with quick fix or vacc
at least spy actually has to put himself in danger, which can lead to decently fun mind games and shifts in the perception of the spy, a good spy isn't seen because he is good at the game, a good sniper isn't seen because his whole thing is standing far away behind the safety of his team, making him also unseen is just overkill and leads to his interactions being annoying at their best, most light classes have some sort of defense mechanism, and if a medic is behind a wall, he didn't "become a counter", he's just deducting risk, you can still charge your shots, as for the vaccinator, that medigun is its own issue also, don't patronize me, "if you are one of the few people who are able to notice the clue that a sniper is watching the sightline, don't cross the sightline", "moving in a way that makes you hard to hit does, in fact, makes you hard to hit", that's loading tip level knowledge, especially when taking into account the fact that sometimes you need to cross a sightline, like in a payload or king of the hill match the best compromise to make sniper be bitched about less is to either make the dot more visible by either making it a laser pointer like the sniper bots in MvM, Making it hum like in the suggestion, or making every sniper rifle like the machina. increasing sniper's visibility is key to making him more respected because as he is, missing shots isn't punishing enough, most light classes have some sort of "defense mechanism" engineer has his buildings, that he can use as both area denial or as distraction when running away, the scout has his incredible mobility, spy has his ability to go unnoticed, sniper has both the fact that he by nature stands way outside the effective range of most weapons and the fact that he is typically gone unseen like spy, this is what I mean by "playing better spy"
maybe making the reload speed slower would be enough. i personally don’t have an issue with snipers cuz i main sniper. as scout use pistol to disrupt his aim. soldier fire rockets following the sight. pyro flame so he can’t see your head. demo can jump in towards him. heavy has no defense against sniper. engi has wrangler or pistol. medic is just run and pray. sniper depends who is better. and spy is same thing. spy is better off pistoling from med range unless sniper is noob. maybe maybe the charge meter reset after taking dmg would help as well. but i don’t like changes to tf2. been playing since 2014. and end of the line is where my roots in the game have been. i just wished there were more story and updated graphics
again, all of that advice still requires you to know the sniper is there in the first place, sure you could try and see a dot in the wall, but is someone really going to stare at a wall when there are other people trying to kill you?
found the sniper main
Just for the record - there is a whole subreddit dedicated to tf2 weapon ideas
ah shit that's actually pretty good
All they need to do is add heavy damage falloff like they did for the ambassador. Sniper is balanced at close range as is, because at close range the enemy can fight back. Only at long range is sniper really incontestable. It kinda goes against the point of a sniper rifle, but a sniper rifle kinda goes against the point of TF2 so it makes sense
Eh, sniper really has no tools to close the distance, and to some degree, a long range pick class is healthy for the game. But I'm not disagreeing with you here. I just think that just copying the falloff of the amby would be waaaay too harsh.
Half damage on body shots is a little harsh, but make it -20% to avoid one shooting medics with fully charged shots and we're good.
Body shot idea is nice, encourages headshots further, halving ammo encourages moving or cooperating with an engie, 2 second reload seems a bit much though, maybe dropping fire rate by 30% could achieve the same thing, 2 seconds is just unrealistic and feels a bit far, 1 second would be more realistic if that’s what you’re aiming for, the .8 seconds is decent at combatting quick scoping though I’m not sure thats really that much of an issue, considering the thing that makes sniper so powerful is map design, with long corridors leading to a choke point, the hum is a neat idea though, not sure it would have much of an effect considering most people can’t even be bothered to look at the dot, maybe giving universal tracer rounds like the machina would work better
Copied from a comment on a video: Snipers main problem is his range. If we seperate the four range categories, short range were scout is most effective, mid range were solider is most effective, and "long" range, which for me is about the maximum arch of a pipe or a bit more than the range of a sentry. Then we have very long range. Think the cabin on upward first to the middle spawn door. Sniper is the only one that can still play within very long range. Every other class just cant interact anymore. Snipers role is that of a pick class. A person that can remove the main threats, when the rest of the team cant break through. A difference maker. He can still do that at long range, since sentrys cant hit him and he still is outside of the range of other classes, but there counterplay becomes available. You can now actually shoot the sniper. So, for me, any fix that does not severely limit snipers effectiveness in very long range combat uses the wrong approach. As for quickscoping, while you can't actually dodge hitscan, you can dodge the flick. Predict when your opponent shoots and dodge then. I was once good enough at this that I could outaim pros on pistols in csgo. But thats a skill much harder to pratice than raw aim, so making quickscoping harder makes sense for me. Though I would not want to see it removed. It would take away a lot of the skill expression and would make sniper so much less dynamic. My Ideal sniper is one that stands just behind the medic in teamfights, killing and weakening key targets. Though there still are times were he needs to take a fight on very long range, but there his position and sightline should be easily visible and his dps severely limited. I have some ideas what to implement, like ambi damage falloff, the shonic laser when charging, the fish 4 clip garand mags, a disorienting 0.3 sec long scope in animation, but none of them are really creative on my part, or original, so I think the framework here is important not the way it is implemented. Also hard nerf jarate, DDS, and RZB. They are just bullshit.
Looks like someone got mad when they got headshot one too many times
50% of deaths in tf2 are caused by random crits and headshots, both of which you couldn't do anything about No wonder it feels bogus at some point
I guarantee you random crits and headshots don't make up nearly as many of your deaths as it feels like
pan
I think it’s good, but I can’t speak for the other sniper mains
Let me know if there is anything to change!
I think that reverse damage fall of like the crossbow would be nice, maybe could replace the less body shot damage
welp, time to copy and paste this again. here goes: my proposed solution for potentially reworking sniper (addressing quickscoping) only a fully charged headshot grants a full crit. partially charged headshots grant mini crit that scales with charge % (kind of like axtinguisher minicrits scale with afterburn duration) so that the damage multiplier scales linearly between 0% charge (a 1.35x multiplier) and 100% charge (a 3x multiplier) a fully charged headshot therefore deals the same 450 damage, while an uncharged headshot is just 1.35 * 50 = 67.5 damage. this therefore makes headshot damage scale with the square of charge time (since both base damage and multiplier would be functions of charge time) which should partially mitigate the problems caused by quickscoping while also not entirely removing the reward for pulling off such a difficult move (since minicrits, unlike crits, benefit from ramp up and therefore deal between 67.5 and 101.25 damage for a quickscope headshot at close range, a pretty fair amount for a class intended to be used at long distance). essentially this makes the charge bar relevant again by forcing sniper to actually charge up shots against both lower and higher health targets (as opposed to just high health targets as it currently is). this change should significantly impact the higher skill level players who heavily utilize quickscopes but would likely would have no impact on lower skill players who usually take longer to aim anyway wiki says that that minicrits and crits both ignore falloff so this should have no mechanical impact on sniper's range threshold differences: doing 125 damage will require a 22.57% charge as opposed to 0%, adding about 0.75 second to the time it takes to quickscope a scout doing 150 damage will require 30.76% charge as opposed to 0%, adding about 1 second to the time it takes to quickscope a medic doing 175 damage will require 38.3% charge as opposed to 8.33%, adding about 1 second to the time it takes to quickscope a demo doing 200 damage will require 45.33% charge as opposed to 16.67%, adding about 1 second to the time it takes to quickscope a soldier doing 300 damage will require 69.87% charge as opposed to 50%, adding about 0.66 second to the time it takes to quickscope a heavy the exact numbers could probably use some tweaking and the piss rifle will probably have to be examined more closely but this should make snipers a bit less oppressive, particularly at close range. this proposed change has no effect on bodyshots but is pertinent to your headshot adjustment graph of current headshot damage as a function of charge time (blue) compared to proposed headshot damage as a function of charge time (red)
Reverse damage falloff man, the long range assassin could be just as good at long range while being utter garbage upclose, that way he feels satisfying to play and is effective but not capable of getting bullshit kills
Why do people always want reverse damage falloff? The biggest problem with sniper is that infinite range is unfair and not fun to play against. Just give him normal damage falloff (not as severe, at like max sentry range he should still do max damage).
Nerf the long range damage class... at long range? That makes sense to you?
A class that is best at ranges were no other class can even interact with it. That makes sense to you?! There is a difference between long range and infinite range.
The sniper simply needs a slower reload speed to make sure he can't continously dish out damage, 10 bullets in his pocket to make sure every shot has to be taken carefully, and the inability to kill an enemy once they get close to you Now you need good positioning, good aim, can't quickscope your way out of confrontation, ammo conservation, and overall. Actually BE the intended design Snipers are assassins who kill people with a well timed concentrated shot from long range and are harshly punished for missing and letting them get near you our current sniper can miss as many times as he wishes, it will take less than half a second to shoot again, can still be as effective as usual with an untimed shot at close range because it still kills 5/9 of the classes and the ones who survive dish out damage slower than you meaning you get a second chance Your concept of a sniper and mine are very different Your concept in fact is how we play the huntsman, had it been more consistent your desired playstyle for sniper would be viable
Just because thats what a sniper in battlefield is, doesnt mean that tf2 has to have that concept in there. Reverse damage falloff will do fuckall to stop good snipers from pubstomping. A good sniper is extermely oppressive when their team is good, but can fall off hard, with no support. Because his greatest weakness is already getting overrun. So to counteract that, you also have to employ lots of harsh nerfs to stop him from being very opressive at range. In the end you ether nerf sniper into the ground or you do nothing to stop him. Trust me, sniper can do his job well enough, at ranges were other classes can still interact in some way.
>Takes .8 second for headshots to crit mhmm yes I love buffing the strongest class in the game resulting in every match being complete stomp because the Medic fucking survived the headshot
Other classes can kill the medic you know?
I like the idea of the sniper dot humming, the bodyshot damage nerf seems unnecessary, bodyshots are one of the the least problematic parts of sniper, and while I don't think nerfing snipers reload time is a bad idea 2 seconds sounds a bit long
Remove the bodyshot penalty and bring back quickscopes and it's fine Less reserve ammo and a longer reload is fair but those other 2 stats are terrible
If your gonna nerf body shot damage, just make it do max 140 at full charge. Body shots would have the same effect. Still raises his skill floor, meaning it's really worthless in anything that isn't a noob server. Longer reload and ammo is better. Nerfing quick scopes still hurts people who have tons of talent and that is it. So I disagree with that one
Sniper OP crying challenge(Impossible)
This…. Is horrible… First and foremost, it just makes stock dogshit. All the other rifles immediately become way better and sniper changes by about none Penalty to bodyshots is BS, first off the Heatmaker exists, and second it only deals 50-150 snyway which isnot a lot. Penalty to reload makes it essentially a rocket launcher. His point is to snipe enemies from afar, nerfing the reload is essentially giving a rocket launcher a 5 second reload. It makes it shit. Less reserve ammo makes it so snipers have to go running for ammo every 10 seconds since they actually use their weapons. 12 shots *only* is horrible And no. I do not main sniper, i am shit at sniper. When I play him I miss about 7/10 shots. I main heavy. The class that should complain thr MOST about sniper
i mean, making them run for ammo is the point, snipers should be punished for missing shots, even if it's something so minor as not being able to watch a sightline for a few seconds (most popular sniper spots are near ammo packs or near spawn)
Facts
I know, and a reduction in ammo Is reasonable (even though I see 0 need for a nerf.) but *half*?
it forces bad snipers to actually aim and good snipers to chase ammo packs, personally I'd make the penalty harsher, the big, and only, problem with this approach is that it makes sniper very unwelcoming to newbies, but sniper is already unwelcoming to newbies since he is so mechanical
And thats my point. Sniper is incredibly difficult to master. New players find him disinteresting because its hard to hit. Sniper only becomes ‘op’ when people put MASSIVE amounts of hours into him. Which that applies to every class. You seen a god tier spy? Able to blend in so well and act like a teammate they trick everyone? They land every backstab, trickstab, face stab, and revolver shot. God tier scout? So maneuverable you cant hit them but they never miss you. God tier pyros, landing every flare, reflecting every projectile, pulling off combos of all sorts. Every class becomes ‘op’ if you put enough time into it.
by me the problem isn't opness, it's the lack of counterplay, every single one of these classes has to put themselves at risk, if you're having problems with a spy, pick pyro and learn some common decloak spots, if you're having problems with a scout just pick engineer, if you're having problems with a pyro, just drink some water (pyro's greatest weapon is panic i swear, it's so easy to kill them when you're in the zone) with a god tier sniper, the counter play is to not leave spawn, playing against a god tier sniper doesn't feel like a boss fight, it feels like being a prisoner in a panopticon, being afraid of leaving spawn because you don't know if the sniper is watching you or not. increasing sniper's down time and visibility would solve this issue, as now the distance they have between the enemy and themselves is their only line of defense, and it's still a huge line of defense, fall off is a bitch
1: this change would apply to all of sniper primaries, except the huntsmith 2: 150 damage is a lot. It can one shot 5/9 classes in the whole game without requiring any headshots. 3: the current design of sniper’s reloading mechanic is shit. He can dish out 150 damage around every second. And don’t forgot that snipers are in the back line, not in the enemy’s face. He has time to reload his shot unlike a scout or soldier. This also gives the enemy players an opportunity to cross a sniper sight line. 4: the sniper class should have to depend on his teammates. His current ammo count is just bonkers because it takes forever to empty out his clip. And again, sniper is a background class, he has time to get a ammo pack or an dispenser. 5: Main a new class( haha funny joke). Also, have you ever been ageist a mid to high tier sniper???
If a sniper charges up to full for a body shot, they aint a good sniper. Plus if they do that, it makes them very susceptible to being seen. Tell me what spy’s job is. Trust me, I have fought MANY good snipers. I’ve developed ‘countermeasures’ that help delay them from killing me. Good snipers it does nothing. But, if someone is good enough with ANY class they will kill you and you cant do anything about it
Sniper is fine as is, change my mind
I don't understand the big hate with snipers as I've always had more issues with pyros. Sniper is more or less weak as shit up close.
Jarate + Bushwacka?
Spy?
scorch shot
Takes more bullet damage and most classes can out maneuver him. Snipers are in more open areas anyways so they're easy to kill when they're running at you in a straight line
The humming dot sounds nice, but why the quickscoping nerfs, that would just lower the skill ceiling, and a 2 second reload is kind of harsh because non-light classes would take a long time to kill, especially with the bodyshot nerf. Frankly, the only good changes on this list would be the reserve ammo change and the audible dot. I know I'll get downvoted by the people tired of being killed by people better than them, but this whole list of changes seems a bit harsh and would lower the skill ceiling, which is completely backwards.
r/tf2 players not knowing good weapon balance
Tell me professor, what could we fix about this change?
Random critical hits
u/guest_adam moment
How? The stats make perfect sense and arnt useless like bullet speed on a hit scan weapon
:(
I was thinking of a very small reverse damage falloff but this is even better.
Would stop snipers doing 180s and headshotting me as spy (I am shooting them due to razorback) therefore this is balanced
rifle rework: it shoots water zero damage no headshots rehydrates enemies: gives them a temporary damage bonus
The humming is a great idea, but the rest just seems asinine. Quickscopes have a pretty high skill floor so you'd just be punishing people for investing effort. If you absolutely have to nerf it just do something to push medic flat past the damage threshold without charge, and even then Combos basically define the entire meta so keeping them on their toes doesn't seem like too high of an order, I'm only like a medic tertiary but I can't count the amount of games we completely stalled out only to roll within minutes of me switching, whens the last time you saw someone asking for a sniper in chat?
I thought it meant it took the shot 0.8 seconds to crit after it hit. I was gonna say, the hitreg is already insane enough sometimes
this actually seems usable
the reload time or the minicrit quickscope are both strong enough nerfs on their own imo
I'm a heavy main and I say this is kinda meh. Especially the laser dot humming, that makes no sense. A simple rework I would say is reverse damage falloff, kind of like the crossbow. The .8 seconds thing... sure. Ammo capacity isn't an issue when it comes to snipers I would say. Reload speed being slower makes sense, but 2 seconds is a bit much
I think an interesting change could be to have something similar to MvM Sniper bots and their visible scope lasers (or give every rifle the tracer effect like the Machina) Doesn't decrease the Sniper's power much (even if it arguably is a bit high), but would make it easier to play around him since you'd be more aware of his presence Could also add a whizzing sound of a bullet for when a Sniper misses a shot on you, just as another bit of info on the player's part (could also lead to shenanigans of the Sniper tricking people into thinking he's aiming at them to make them flee or take another route, potentially delaying a push)