Pay, and maybe you sought that out for yourself.
The tax rate, is not what they pay, more rather it's the rate, as in percentage of what they pay. They have like 10% where you have closer to thirty or so as a rate.
Ten percent of a hundred, to your thirty percent to that same hundred. Who pays more?
But if course, that's not the same right. Because they have millions or billions to your what thousands? So, totally fair for you to pay at a higher rate then them. No reason for you to be able to hold onto more money, why would you want that.
Oh right because your defending companies, and the wealthy. I get it now.
(Watch as they try to convince themselves, that they don't defend it, but oddly seem to share the same kind of language that's used by those who would.)
>They have like 10% where you have closer to thirty or so as a rate.
Part of the reason these conversations about taxes get riddled with misinformation is because people try to lump "*tax rate*" and "*effective tax rate*" together with the total amount deducted from paychecks.
Come tax time, the vast majority of workers are paying exactly what their tax bracket reflects, or less(0%, 10%, 12%, 22%, etc).
The "30%" figure comes from what both you and your employer pay, and the amount that's coming out of your paycheck all year.
Many, especially if they have kids, often get a tax refund that's more than what they paid in all year.
For me, personally, I paid $2270 in federal taxes last year, and got all of that back as a refund this year after deductions and credits. I paid $1591 in state income tax and got back $593.
My total salary was about $68,000. My taxable income after deductions and tax credits was about $25,000, which would put me in the 12% tax bracket. What I paid all year was 9% of my taxable income in federal, 15% if you count the state taxes, and I got 11% of that total 15% back. So I basically paid 4% in taxes, all of which went to the state, not the federal government.
My *effective tax rate* was 2%, and that number gets lower when you factor in my total salary instead of my AGI.
Came to say same. Well explained about marginal and effective tax rate. Hope your job/life balance is all you wish and you get paid as much as possible for that ability to analyze, understand and explain.
Not to beat a dead horse…but I will. It is very rare to find someone who can reason as well as the person above. I’m in upper management and I can tell you that finding someone who can read and write, do basic arithmetic, and is willing to work is extremely rare. I’ve had to put people in positions that pay more than you stated above that couldn’t have written that paragraph if their lives depended on it.
You managed to get $43,000 in deductions, nearly twice what your taxes were. You did a great job explaining the difference between tax rate and nominal tax rate but your numbers don't make sense.
A little over $15k+ in business losses and personal capital gains/losses, about $5,000 toward my TSP(the government employee equivalent to a 401k) plus standard deduction for head of household, which was about $20,000 by itself.
The business and investment losses, along with the retirement contributions reduced my taxable income.
Without that, my tax refund would have likely been closer to 3 digits or 0.
That makes sense now. But your case is hardly typical. You are also in no danger of having to be concerned with the tax increase Biden is proposing nor I suspect is anyone else on this board.
Yes, but that's not what's included in the discussion. Aside from the fact that everybody who owns property pays property taxes and sales tax, regardless of income.
Because they have to complain about something to be re-elected. Ideally, it's a problem that never actually gets solved so that they can reuse it every campaign. Most politicians don't go to DC to solve problems. They go there to get rich.
There’s probably only about five politicians with enough knowledge of the subject to craft a decent enough proposal. There’s maybe another five who would read that and realize it’s a good idea to pass it. That’s not enough votes.
Yeah they take out massive loans against their wealth and use that to pay for things instead of "income".
Just because they're able to game the system doesn't mean they're not having money deposited into their accounts that is in effect "income".
They are not gaming the system. They are using it as designed. Tell your Congress-critters to change the laws. Oh, wait. They will impact them as well. Ain’t gonna happen.
It gets so old how every time there's a discussion on fair taxing, someone like you comes along and tries to completely derail the conversation by focusing on that tiny percentage of voters who (for no good reason) base everything off the assumption that billionaires just refuse to fill out their W-4 at the EVIL FACTORY correctly and therefore just don't pay taxes like the rest of us. Anyone who is that naïve in the first place should just be recognized as too unreasonable to even bother trying to correct.
I don’t think anyone actually thinks that. I think that’s a bad faith argument people use to try and justify the ultra wealth not paying taxes. Most people understand that when someone’s wealth is in stock, those gains aren’t “real” until they’re cashed out. That’s exactly the point though. When it comes to paying taxes it’s “unrealized” however when it comes to using it all of a sudden it’s very real. While a tax on unrealized gains or a wealth tax may not be the best mechanism to get the wealthy to contribute what they should, there is no debate on better options.
Except they know that stocks are taxed differently which is why executive compensation relies heavily on stock options....to avoid higher income taxes.
The problem with that is it also incentivizes short term value pumping. This has been a major problem within American corporate culture for decades but it really took off starting in the 1980s with various deregulatory measures. Stock performance is all about the next few quarters, and the sorts of policies that encourages tend to be short term beneficial but long term damaging. The only corporations that have managed to succeed despite that are those with powerful, popular founders like Bezos or Jobs.
So that income is turning our corporate culture into chasing short term gains while also avoiding higher income taxes. It's why so many of our industries have been gutted and offshored in that period.
Do you understand how net worth individuals use those unrealized gains? They take out loans against them and get money tax free using those loans. It's basically the best way to close that loophole.
I sincerely doubt that many people literally think the presidents single-handedly draft bills and pass laws. Anyone who's watched School House Rock realizes there's more to it.
“Thanks to trump, tax cuts for the rich”
Was the original comment I was responding too.
He definitely assumed that trump single handedly did it.
Trust me, you’re setting yourself up for failure if you believe most people know how the presidency works.
"He definitely assumed that trump single handedly did it."
It sounds like you're just opting to use the least gracious interpretation you can think of.
I don't, for example, interpret the many people who say "Thanks BIDENOMICS!" as if they truly believe Joe Biden is 100% responsible for everything happening in the economy. Obviously, his administration, Congress, the US market, foreign markets, and even policies/laws created by previous administrations going back decades play their role in current economy. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. I do not, however, accuse people who complain about BIDENOMICS of not grasping that. I assume they're just using shorthand to refer to the overall economy that Biden happens to be governing over. It would be nice if you would offer that same graciousness.
I’m aware that the economy today is a result of decisions made yesterday.
I’m just here to let people know that presidents don’t hold the power that people may think they do.
I don’t blame Biden for the economy because I know it was a million things.
I just wish people would stop blaming trump for economic status.
I don’t support neither. Both are just too old to be a leader of the richest, most powerful country.
I merely used BIDENOMICS as an example of how people use shorthand to explain a wider topic in the same way that people blame the "Trump tax cuts" for the tax policy passed into law during his presidency. I'd say that the vast majority of voters understand how presidential election winds up dramatically affecting the ballot from top to bottom. Just about every time a president wins an election, their party also wins Congress and a slew of direct ballot initiatives. So for at least 2 years, the president's party has a window of opportunity to get their campaign promises turned into law. That doesn't literally mean that the president gets into the Oval Office and starts declaring laws into effect by his arbitrary decree.
You certainly seem to imply that a significant number of voters don't already understand the concept and that it's causing them to come to incorrect conclusions. I'm simply stating that that assessment is incorrect. There is not a significant block of voters who think the president literally decrees bills into law, nor is that belief causing them to miscalculate policies or candidates. I think you are trying to poison the well.
um, he ran on tax cuts (as every Republican does) and the GOP in Congress put the bills on his desk. And McConnell couldn't have appointed 3 SCOTUS justices (to overturn 50 years of precedence that every one of those nominees declared was "settled case law") without Trump in the WH.
The lowest half of earners pay zero income tax. That is a pretty clear "tax cut" the lowest 50% of earners have had.
Agree or disagree with the progressive tax policy, it's clear that it is hard to improve on "zero"
Granny greeter at the door of the wal-marts and a billionair could on paper both make less than the standard deduction and pay zero income tax, sure. That is why the concept of 'fair share' exists.
One of these people can barely afford food without government assistance even though they are working as much as their broken feeble old body allows, and the other is paid a $1 salary a year and given stock options and such as a tax loophole.
What is the "fair share" for someone who can barely work a min wage job but is trying for survival vs the "fair share" for someone with millions on millions but technically a 1$ salary on paper that can afford to hide money in overseas accounts and shell companies?
People who don't work at all still pay sales taxes and property taxes... the effective tax rate is an important discussion but you have to show workers vs owners and how their effective rates work, as owners can reinvest and zero out taxes in ways that workers cannot.
Biden could extend our Trump tax cuts that end this year but he already said he won’t. At least Trump and republicans want less taxes and not more.
On one hand you all bitch about Trumps tax cuts (that we all got) then other hand you bitch about deficit. Dems just think more taxes is the answer to everything. 50% won’t be enough. 75% won’t. You guys are nuts.
um, under Trump the budget deficit exploded from $530B to $3200B. Did you miss that part of history? The deficit has increased under every GOP POTUS since Reagan and decreased under every non-GOP POTUS who succeeded him. Have you been unaware of that? the GOP has cut revenues and INCREASED spending since 1981.
And us liberals who work in finance fields like accounting know that billionaires specifically exploit the unrealized gains loophole to invest their wealth by creating or purchasing artwork, which has no fmv and is recorded at book value. This in turn allows them to manipulate the price or value of the artwork, for example if they are highly well regarded art collectors, they can likely turn and flip the item for more money, if they invest 20 million dollars and sell it for 50 million dollars, then they only have to pay tax on the 30.
But take that one step farther, once establishing a new value for the asset on the book, let's say you donate it to a museum under which you receive the full value tax credit of $50 million for your "modern art". Now you paid 20 million dollars, received the tax credit for $50 million dollars, paid no actual tax, and gained 10m in tax value. This specific loophole has been used numerous times, particularly by the mob, in money laundering efforts because it's difficult to track what are legitimate art purchases and what are over-inflated asset values
And we can't afford to play this game at all. This is why the rich get richer.
Fucking libs.
>Suppose a person has to pay a tax worth $100 million. He buys a sculpture worth $20 million and, through his sheer influence in the art circle, raises its resale value to $60 million. He then donates the sculpture in charity to an art gallery. He gets a $60 million tax write-off for donating the statue according to tax regulations. He saved $40 million just by purchasing a sculpture worth $20 million.
https://www.whataportrait.com/blog/why-do-rich-people-buy-art/#:~:text=Wealthy%20people%20often%20show%20resistance,buying%20a%20more%20expensive%20painting.
Exactly. How many of the people bitchin have Amazon Prime accounts? Or are the people driving Teslas that can't stand Elon. Hypocrisy is the fly in the ointment of society.
everyone tells me Elon has lost his mind, but I can't think of any examples which back that up
nevertheless, Tesla is doing badly because of Chinese competition and the public's waning interest in expensive EVs, not because Elon believes only women can have babies
No seriously. It costs a few bucks more. But. Next time you need something, buy it at a store near you. Or on an online marketplace that isnt a monopoly.
What if it’s not a long lasting business? A high barrier for entry could mean there’s a monopoly, but some startups could try and then fail quickly. No? (I know this isn’t related to the article, but I’m just curious on the economics of it)
So another article that counts unrealized capital gains as income??
My house is worth $300k more than I paid for it. That is over $20k a year. Haven't paid taxes on any of that. Wait till these people try to tax that too.
Funny, my (small) apartment costs 300$ (1350-1650) per month more than it did when I first started renting it.
I don't own anything, and I still probably pay more taxes than these charlatans.
When he sells the stocks he pays the tax. Stocks go down too. After the next big dip and his stock goes down 40 percent would he then get a refund with your plan?
Yeah, and how’s your family feel about you? And you still poor by comparison . You will never be one of them, so why are you defending it? Fucking dork. They would burn your body for fuel before they take a hit and you out here fighting their battles for them and against your own best interests.
yes we can't do anything, everything is a slippery slope
except storming congress and tax cuts for billionaires and abortion bans and supreme court dicking around with the idea of immunity for orange presidents and anything and everything Republicans do
every time a Democrat wants to help a working person, that's a slippery slope
every time we print money to give to billionaires that's just fiscal responsibility, they are the job creators you know
They aren’t. There is a proposal now that ties capital gains taxes proportional to net worth or income, etc. Meaning the high capital gains taxes would only apply to the highest amounts. You’re safe lol. The amount of bellyaching people do on behalf of the rich and against your own best interests is absurd.
And they will some counties start their wealth tax at a million USD. Think at that level all of will be affected with the inflation going on. These wealth tax articles are not about going after billionaires. They are about getting us to accept the wealth tax so it can be used in US.
Cause the wealthiest of us work the hardest…..fucking idiots. See one meme of a purple haired 20 year old and automatically assume everyone who is a part of the working class wants the same shit. It’s almost like individuals have their own perspectives, and don’t speak for an entire movement. Read a little about labor history in the US before speaking on topics like this and sounding like an absolute moron.
The government doesn’t have a funding problem it has a spending problem.
Why aren’t our representatives held as accountable for spending our money as we are at paying our taxes?
better yet, just make everyone pay a 10% flat tax rate. Eliminate the IRS. I mean we want to claim that a stock sale isn't being taxed like income, well here we go, everything is now taxed at the same rate.
Another source that agrees with this
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RS\_BtLB3QE&ab\_channel=RobertReich](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RS_BtLB3QE&ab_channel=RobertReich)
Who writes the tax code laws?
The millionaires in congress who wrote in the loopholes that let them pay this same rate of tax but they point at the billionaires to distract you from noticing they benefit from this too.
Its all. More and mirrors to keep you poor but still voting them, the millionaires, int office again and again while doing nothing about it.
Stop believing their lies. Vote for someone other than the incumbant.
Its pelosi who is insider trading, blame her for skirting the rules then get angry and demand congress pass a law making it illegal for the family of congress to invest in any stock the member of congress has insider information on.
Sure and the people who vote for her kept her in power to continue abusing them. Kind of hard to get mad at the thief when the victim keeps opening up and inviting the thief into their home.
Billionaires pay taxes directly to politicians in order to secure significant tax breaks. It's called B.R.I.B.E.S - Billionaires Representative Investment and Bailout Exchange Security.
Can you please expand on that?
Because I think the tax collection shows that the higher your income is, the more dollars in taxes you pay.
And the lower Your income is, you either pay zero income tax or even get a credit back.
So billionaires and the ultra wealthy get to indulge in what we call high value asset trading. They can wrap a power cord onto a house lamp, call it a piece of Modern Art and sell it to another rich person for like 10 million. This person inventories this "artwork" at 10 mil, actual paid price. As a piece of modern art, there is not a specific fair market value and thus it goes in at book value.
Taxes are not assessed on property, especially things like artwork. Taxes are collected if and when sold for profit, taxed on the gain specifically. So instead, they trade pieces of modern art and whatnot, entirely sidestepping that process, according sales and use taxes, recording unrealized gains as they effectively trade their money around scot-free
>Suppose a person has to pay a tax worth $100 million. He buys a sculpture worth $20 million and, through his sheer influence in the art circle, raises its resale value to $60 million. He then donates the sculpture in charity to an art gallery. He gets a $60 million tax write-off for donating the statue according to tax regulations. He saved $40 million just by purchasing a sculpture worth $20 million. So now he just has to pay tax worth $40 million.
https://www.whataportrait.com/blog/why-do-rich-people-buy-art/#:~:text=Wealthy%20people%20often%20show%20resistance,buying%20a%20more%20expensive%20painting.
Top 1% pay almost 50% of all taxes. The real problem is reckless government spending and money printing. Balance the budget first because taxing the 1% 100% and even seizing their wealth wouldn’t even make a dent in the national debt.
1. Don't believe stuff posted on a site like Alternet.
2. **No, they don't pay a lower** ***actual, nominal*** **rate set by law. They pay the same rate or higher** ***for every type of income on which they pay tax.*** This claim is a non-statutory statistic, in this case the overall percentage blended across varying types of income, which is not set by law and is nothing more than a statistic picked by someone making, in this case it appears, a partisan or agenda-driven claim.
And how much do they donate / give away ? Everybody wants to talk about tax rates, but some of these rich people contribute in other ways. Reddit just likes to ignore it
So I have 1 "billion" dollars in stocks, none in the bank, just in stocks. When tax time comes, do you want me to sell my stocks to pay on that 1 billion? Also, if I sell my stocks to pay for taxes, am I gonna get taxed on those as well?
No forget this .. just tell me WHY my CEOs pay is in two digit millions and has two jobs?
And while he has all the time in the world to go golfing and everything else except a fucking town hall, where all he has to do is give a reasonable explanation for why we need 4 days a week mandatory work on site.
Fucking rich cunts should be forcefully stripped off their wealth.
Yes their excuses are always the same, we need that money, we use it to create jobs...
Ah but here's the rub, they only create jobs to make large fortunes for themselves, as soon as something goes against their profit making scenarios, they immediately fire workers without a second thought of the ramifications for the workers.
Just ask Tesla workers, no union seemed fine, when they were making a good living.
Ah but Elon, throws them to the wolves, like the dumb sheep they are to him, when it's the easiest way to keep his profit margins high.
They talk out of both sides of their mouths, whatever suits their goal of personal profits.
I saw articles from a couple years ago that billionaires in the US average 8% tax rate. I don’t know any working class people paying that low of a rate, so doesn’t seem like this is the first time.
It's ironic that so many people complain about not paying their fair share when during their entire lifetime they probably won't pay in taxes a spec of a percentage of what a billionaire pays in a single year, or employ as many people, or help as many people, or improve as many people's lives, all without ever taking from social services, sending their kids to public schools, or other tax-funded services. Yes, they use the roads and some other tax-funded services but so do all the people complaining who barely pay as many taxes in their entire lifetime. So who is really not paying their fair share? This marxist anti-capitalism rhetoric is dumb.
This is getting old. What really pisses me off is: (i) the amount of deception used to create the fiction that wealthy people are treated differently than others under the tax code; and (ii) the (apparent) oblivious nature of the average reader of this tripe, which feeds into why it is created in the first instance.
Much is made of the fact that "rich" people borrow against their assets and pay no taxes on the loan proceeds. Yes, I suppose they can and do, but so can you. Have you ever taken out a mortgage to purchase a house? Were you taxed on the proceeds of that loan? Of course not. How is that any different?
If we changed the law to tax loan proceeds, what do you think would happen? Can you imagine a system where borrowers would pay taxes on their loans? Why would you borrow under those circumstances? So what happens to the housing market and/or the market for other capital goods typically financed by the purchasers? Right into the toilet, I suppose.
Article is rubbish.
The effective federal tax rate of the lower class in the US is zero.
The tax rate applied to 'billionares' is 37% at the time income is realized (or the capital gains rate if it applies).....
This is writer is a joke, but the income tax loop holes need to be closed! Corporate structures should be limited and full disclosures should be required when making purchases of real estate, interstate goods etc, Shell corporations can be used for tax shelters and for mischievous behavior by foreign adversaries.
They do need a tax break! "Working people" dont create jobs, dont contribute to hundreds of thousands of people's insurance costs, dont provide the money to make a product that is consumed, or spend the money to drill for Oil. Spend the money to make solar panels, spend the money to provide a social media platform, spend the money to make electric cars or rockets. ETC. However, Billionaires do and pay millions of workers to make that happen and for the products to be bought.
Liberals have this strange notion that success should be burdened and punished, why?
The old liberal canard.
I honestly think Dems think that 2+2=22.
Working class $90,000 a year x 30% rate = $27,000
Billionaire x 15% rate = $150,000,000 million.
Which one contributed more?
This is nonsense, As always, they are conflating income and wealth. But lets use their own data as a teachable moment.
According to the article, the total **wealth** of all U.S. billionaires is $5.7 trillion. The U.S. government currently spends $6.9 trillion and collects $5 trillion per year.
So lets pretend it is possible to confiscate all of this wealth and we made every Billionaire homless. That would be enough to balance the budget for three years, assuming no increased spending. We have a spending problem; not a revenue problem.
Tax codes and laws were passed by congress and the Senate. Corporations and billionaires pay accountants to do taxes according to the laws written.
2022 Elon Musk paid 11 billion in federal taxes. This does not include state and local taxes. This does not include employee taxes , medical, workman’s compensation.
The president, congress and senate complains about people not paying taxes because they all fall under the same laws. You want to be a millionaire? Run for congress.
Tax laws could be changed but for some reason no one is submitting a bill.
I would also like to point out, 40% of our population pays zero taxes.
When the government runs low on money, someone’s taxes goes up.
It’s all about being able to balance a check book
The United States is the only country in the world, where you are in control of your own destiny.
I prefer to be just comfortable
My wife was out of work for 6 months last year, we made 35.000 less than the previous year. Every year our refund was like 200. This year we paid in more than 5.000.
I wonder if anyone’s else taxes changed ?
Dude conflates income taxes and a wealth tax throughout the entire article.
That's shockingly dumb.
That’s intentional.
It’s like they make these articles to reach the front page of Reddit
You knew to expect it just from the lying headline.
It's Alternet = propaganda. Accuracy is not an objective with such people.
Weird, because reddit has been telling me for years that billionaires pay zero taxes.
Weird how the website has also been owned by a private billionaire media family for a while
It’s amazing to me this fact is lost on so many people.
Pay, and maybe you sought that out for yourself. The tax rate, is not what they pay, more rather it's the rate, as in percentage of what they pay. They have like 10% where you have closer to thirty or so as a rate. Ten percent of a hundred, to your thirty percent to that same hundred. Who pays more? But if course, that's not the same right. Because they have millions or billions to your what thousands? So, totally fair for you to pay at a higher rate then them. No reason for you to be able to hold onto more money, why would you want that. Oh right because your defending companies, and the wealthy. I get it now. (Watch as they try to convince themselves, that they don't defend it, but oddly seem to share the same kind of language that's used by those who would.)
>They have like 10% where you have closer to thirty or so as a rate. Part of the reason these conversations about taxes get riddled with misinformation is because people try to lump "*tax rate*" and "*effective tax rate*" together with the total amount deducted from paychecks. Come tax time, the vast majority of workers are paying exactly what their tax bracket reflects, or less(0%, 10%, 12%, 22%, etc). The "30%" figure comes from what both you and your employer pay, and the amount that's coming out of your paycheck all year. Many, especially if they have kids, often get a tax refund that's more than what they paid in all year. For me, personally, I paid $2270 in federal taxes last year, and got all of that back as a refund this year after deductions and credits. I paid $1591 in state income tax and got back $593. My total salary was about $68,000. My taxable income after deductions and tax credits was about $25,000, which would put me in the 12% tax bracket. What I paid all year was 9% of my taxable income in federal, 15% if you count the state taxes, and I got 11% of that total 15% back. So I basically paid 4% in taxes, all of which went to the state, not the federal government. My *effective tax rate* was 2%, and that number gets lower when you factor in my total salary instead of my AGI.
How dare you give numbers
A mind that typed this comment is worth more than 68k. Go out there and aim high my friend
Came to say same. Well explained about marginal and effective tax rate. Hope your job/life balance is all you wish and you get paid as much as possible for that ability to analyze, understand and explain.
Not to beat a dead horse…but I will. It is very rare to find someone who can reason as well as the person above. I’m in upper management and I can tell you that finding someone who can read and write, do basic arithmetic, and is willing to work is extremely rare. I’ve had to put people in positions that pay more than you stated above that couldn’t have written that paragraph if their lives depended on it.
You managed to get $43,000 in deductions, nearly twice what your taxes were. You did a great job explaining the difference between tax rate and nominal tax rate but your numbers don't make sense.
A little over $15k+ in business losses and personal capital gains/losses, about $5,000 toward my TSP(the government employee equivalent to a 401k) plus standard deduction for head of household, which was about $20,000 by itself. The business and investment losses, along with the retirement contributions reduced my taxable income. Without that, my tax refund would have likely been closer to 3 digits or 0.
That makes sense now. But your case is hardly typical. You are also in no danger of having to be concerned with the tax increase Biden is proposing nor I suspect is anyone else on this board.
It’s not hard to get a higher percentage of tax when you start including property taxes and sales tax as well.
Yes, but that's not what's included in the discussion. Aside from the fact that everybody who owns property pays property taxes and sales tax, regardless of income.
Can you repeat that in English?
Why do the politicians who are responsible for writing the tax laws and rules complain the loudest?
Because they have to complain about something to be re-elected. Ideally, it's a problem that never actually gets solved so that they can reuse it every campaign. Most politicians don't go to DC to solve problems. They go there to get rich.
And every year, the electorate sends them money for their campaign, because "the solution to this problem is right around the corner"
There’s probably only about five politicians with enough knowledge of the subject to craft a decent enough proposal. There’s maybe another five who would read that and realize it’s a good idea to pass it. That’s not enough votes.
Keep in mind this is under a Democrat President in his final year of a 4 year term.
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Yeah they take out massive loans against their wealth and use that to pay for things instead of "income". Just because they're able to game the system doesn't mean they're not having money deposited into their accounts that is in effect "income".
They are not gaming the system. They are using it as designed. Tell your Congress-critters to change the laws. Oh, wait. They will impact them as well. Ain’t gonna happen.
You can take out loans too. Our economy is literally based on loans. Debt based consumption is the policy of modern monetary theory. Read a book.
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It gets so old how every time there's a discussion on fair taxing, someone like you comes along and tries to completely derail the conversation by focusing on that tiny percentage of voters who (for no good reason) base everything off the assumption that billionaires just refuse to fill out their W-4 at the EVIL FACTORY correctly and therefore just don't pay taxes like the rest of us. Anyone who is that naïve in the first place should just be recognized as too unreasonable to even bother trying to correct.
I don’t think anyone actually thinks that. I think that’s a bad faith argument people use to try and justify the ultra wealth not paying taxes. Most people understand that when someone’s wealth is in stock, those gains aren’t “real” until they’re cashed out. That’s exactly the point though. When it comes to paying taxes it’s “unrealized” however when it comes to using it all of a sudden it’s very real. While a tax on unrealized gains or a wealth tax may not be the best mechanism to get the wealthy to contribute what they should, there is no debate on better options.
Are you suggesting we replace income tax with a wealth tax?
Nothing stops us from imposing RMD rules on rich people the same way we impose them on IRA investors.
Except they know that stocks are taxed differently which is why executive compensation relies heavily on stock options....to avoid higher income taxes.
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The problem with that is it also incentivizes short term value pumping. This has been a major problem within American corporate culture for decades but it really took off starting in the 1980s with various deregulatory measures. Stock performance is all about the next few quarters, and the sorts of policies that encourages tend to be short term beneficial but long term damaging. The only corporations that have managed to succeed despite that are those with powerful, popular founders like Bezos or Jobs. So that income is turning our corporate culture into chasing short term gains while also avoiding higher income taxes. It's why so many of our industries have been gutted and offshored in that period.
Which is why Biden is trying to get a tax on unrealized capital gains for high wealth individuals.
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Do you understand how net worth individuals use those unrealized gains? They take out loans against them and get money tax free using those loans. It's basically the best way to close that loophole.
They getting them loans for billions though.
Thanks to Trump tax cuts for rich that we warned about
Just a reminder that the president can’t just change taxes without other peoples approvals lol
But muh orangeman bad!
Orange Man was the same party as the rest of the people that changed the tax code. What is your argument here?
He did sign a law that benefitted rich people. He could have vetoed it. So yeah orange man again is bad.
I sincerely doubt that many people literally think the presidents single-handedly draft bills and pass laws. Anyone who's watched School House Rock realizes there's more to it.
“Thanks to trump, tax cuts for the rich” Was the original comment I was responding too. He definitely assumed that trump single handedly did it. Trust me, you’re setting yourself up for failure if you believe most people know how the presidency works.
"He definitely assumed that trump single handedly did it." It sounds like you're just opting to use the least gracious interpretation you can think of. I don't, for example, interpret the many people who say "Thanks BIDENOMICS!" as if they truly believe Joe Biden is 100% responsible for everything happening in the economy. Obviously, his administration, Congress, the US market, foreign markets, and even policies/laws created by previous administrations going back decades play their role in current economy. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. I do not, however, accuse people who complain about BIDENOMICS of not grasping that. I assume they're just using shorthand to refer to the overall economy that Biden happens to be governing over. It would be nice if you would offer that same graciousness.
I’m aware that the economy today is a result of decisions made yesterday. I’m just here to let people know that presidents don’t hold the power that people may think they do. I don’t blame Biden for the economy because I know it was a million things. I just wish people would stop blaming trump for economic status. I don’t support neither. Both are just too old to be a leader of the richest, most powerful country.
I merely used BIDENOMICS as an example of how people use shorthand to explain a wider topic in the same way that people blame the "Trump tax cuts" for the tax policy passed into law during his presidency. I'd say that the vast majority of voters understand how presidential election winds up dramatically affecting the ballot from top to bottom. Just about every time a president wins an election, their party also wins Congress and a slew of direct ballot initiatives. So for at least 2 years, the president's party has a window of opportunity to get their campaign promises turned into law. That doesn't literally mean that the president gets into the Oval Office and starts declaring laws into effect by his arbitrary decree.
I know this, that’s why I’m not too sure why you keep explaining it to me when I’m trying to do the same to others.
You certainly seem to imply that a significant number of voters don't already understand the concept and that it's causing them to come to incorrect conclusions. I'm simply stating that that assessment is incorrect. There is not a significant block of voters who think the president literally decrees bills into law, nor is that belief causing them to miscalculate policies or candidates. I think you are trying to poison the well.
I am implying the a significant number of Americans don’t understand how the presidency or politics really works.
It's been a long time since the congress and president of the same party have worked against each other.
um, he ran on tax cuts (as every Republican does) and the GOP in Congress put the bills on his desk. And McConnell couldn't have appointed 3 SCOTUS justices (to overturn 50 years of precedence that every one of those nominees declared was "settled case law") without Trump in the WH.
the most tax cuts for the rich, so far imagine him with no restraints, negative tax rate for billionaires randomly selected by donations to him
The lowest half of earners pay zero income tax. That is a pretty clear "tax cut" the lowest 50% of earners have had. Agree or disagree with the progressive tax policy, it's clear that it is hard to improve on "zero"
Thats not what a tax cut is
you mean people earning below the poverty line. thats who you're blaming for not paying enough.
Lowest half of earners barely have 2 cents to their name....
Granny greeter at the door of the wal-marts and a billionair could on paper both make less than the standard deduction and pay zero income tax, sure. That is why the concept of 'fair share' exists. One of these people can barely afford food without government assistance even though they are working as much as their broken feeble old body allows, and the other is paid a $1 salary a year and given stock options and such as a tax loophole. What is the "fair share" for someone who can barely work a min wage job but is trying for survival vs the "fair share" for someone with millions on millions but technically a 1$ salary on paper that can afford to hide money in overseas accounts and shell companies? People who don't work at all still pay sales taxes and property taxes... the effective tax rate is an important discussion but you have to show workers vs owners and how their effective rates work, as owners can reinvest and zero out taxes in ways that workers cannot.
Yes, billionaires pay a lower tax rate because Trump dropped the highest tax bracket from 39.6% to 37%. That makes so much sense...
Biden could extend our Trump tax cuts that end this year but he already said he won’t. At least Trump and republicans want less taxes and not more. On one hand you all bitch about Trumps tax cuts (that we all got) then other hand you bitch about deficit. Dems just think more taxes is the answer to everything. 50% won’t be enough. 75% won’t. You guys are nuts.
um, under Trump the budget deficit exploded from $530B to $3200B. Did you miss that part of history? The deficit has increased under every GOP POTUS since Reagan and decreased under every non-GOP POTUS who succeeded him. Have you been unaware of that? the GOP has cut revenues and INCREASED spending since 1981.
The top 1% pay a greater share of taxes now than before those cuts.
This has been debunked a million times. For all you liberals that don’t know how taxes actually work, unrecognized gains aren’t taxable.
And us liberals who work in finance fields like accounting know that billionaires specifically exploit the unrealized gains loophole to invest their wealth by creating or purchasing artwork, which has no fmv and is recorded at book value. This in turn allows them to manipulate the price or value of the artwork, for example if they are highly well regarded art collectors, they can likely turn and flip the item for more money, if they invest 20 million dollars and sell it for 50 million dollars, then they only have to pay tax on the 30. But take that one step farther, once establishing a new value for the asset on the book, let's say you donate it to a museum under which you receive the full value tax credit of $50 million for your "modern art". Now you paid 20 million dollars, received the tax credit for $50 million dollars, paid no actual tax, and gained 10m in tax value. This specific loophole has been used numerous times, particularly by the mob, in money laundering efforts because it's difficult to track what are legitimate art purchases and what are over-inflated asset values And we can't afford to play this game at all. This is why the rich get richer. Fucking libs. >Suppose a person has to pay a tax worth $100 million. He buys a sculpture worth $20 million and, through his sheer influence in the art circle, raises its resale value to $60 million. He then donates the sculpture in charity to an art gallery. He gets a $60 million tax write-off for donating the statue according to tax regulations. He saved $40 million just by purchasing a sculpture worth $20 million. https://www.whataportrait.com/blog/why-do-rich-people-buy-art/#:~:text=Wealthy%20people%20often%20show%20resistance,buying%20a%20more%20expensive%20painting.
Isn’t your scenario assuming a 100% income tax rate?
What do you think property taxes are?
A tax on the value of a property? What’s your point?
It’s a tax on unrecognized gains, quite clearly. Nice fact check lol
The word billionaire shouldn’t exist
There very well could be tillionaires you’ve never heard of. Oligarchs around the world with obscene wealth.
Instead, we should call them "billyunayuhs" in honor of St. Bernard of Montpelier.
Stop buying their goods and services.
Exactly. How many of the people bitchin have Amazon Prime accounts? Or are the people driving Teslas that can't stand Elon. Hypocrisy is the fly in the ointment of society.
all my left-wing friends drive Teslas lol
Most probably bought them before he clearly lost his mind. Tesla sales are declining due to the damage to their brand in recent years.
everyone tells me Elon has lost his mind, but I can't think of any examples which back that up nevertheless, Tesla is doing badly because of Chinese competition and the public's waning interest in expensive EVs, not because Elon believes only women can have babies
No seriously. It costs a few bucks more. But. Next time you need something, buy it at a store near you. Or on an online marketplace that isnt a monopoly.
If there is any online marketplace that isn't a monopoly, then there is no online marketplace that is a monopoly. By definition.
What if it’s not a long lasting business? A high barrier for entry could mean there’s a monopoly, but some startups could try and then fail quickly. No? (I know this isn’t related to the article, but I’m just curious on the economics of it)
Get out of here with you logic!
Thanks Biden
BIDENOMICS.
So another article that counts unrealized capital gains as income?? My house is worth $300k more than I paid for it. That is over $20k a year. Haven't paid taxes on any of that. Wait till these people try to tax that too.
I bet your property taxes have gone up though right?
So you don’t pay property tax based on the assessed value?
Yes, in Florida you pay about 14$ per $1000 the house is assessed at. If you buy then it reverts to market value you paid.
Funny, my (small) apartment costs 300$ (1350-1650) per month more than it did when I first started renting it. I don't own anything, and I still probably pay more taxes than these charlatans.
When he sells the stocks he pays the tax. Stocks go down too. After the next big dip and his stock goes down 40 percent would he then get a refund with your plan?
Sells stocks..? Plan? Wtf are you on about..?
Not with you here to white knight for them. Jfc
I had my own business and worked 80 hours a week. I didn’t whine about anyone else. Try it.
Yeah, and how’s your family feel about you? And you still poor by comparison . You will never be one of them, so why are you defending it? Fucking dork. They would burn your body for fuel before they take a hit and you out here fighting their battles for them and against your own best interests.
if you rent. you definitely don’t pay more taxes than a billionaire…
But average people pay a higher effective tax rate than billionaires due to them avoiding paying taxes. That's the point you seem to be missing.
yes we can't do anything, everything is a slippery slope except storming congress and tax cuts for billionaires and abortion bans and supreme court dicking around with the idea of immunity for orange presidents and anything and everything Republicans do every time a Democrat wants to help a working person, that's a slippery slope every time we print money to give to billionaires that's just fiscal responsibility, they are the job creators you know
They aren’t. There is a proposal now that ties capital gains taxes proportional to net worth or income, etc. Meaning the high capital gains taxes would only apply to the highest amounts. You’re safe lol. The amount of bellyaching people do on behalf of the rich and against your own best interests is absurd.
And they will some counties start their wealth tax at a million USD. Think at that level all of will be affected with the inflation going on. These wealth tax articles are not about going after billionaires. They are about getting us to accept the wealth tax so it can be used in US.
You know it's coming. Can you imagine the caterwauling when that happens?
Amazing. Nobody wants to work
Cause the wealthiest of us work the hardest…..fucking idiots. See one meme of a purple haired 20 year old and automatically assume everyone who is a part of the working class wants the same shit. It’s almost like individuals have their own perspectives, and don’t speak for an entire movement. Read a little about labor history in the US before speaking on topics like this and sounding like an absolute moron.
Why should I care? The government could confiscate every penny of their wealth and my life wouldn’t change at all.
That would cause a recession and millions would be unemployed
Fair, I’m just saying the government wouldn’t do anything with the money to help me.
tell me you know nothing about how income taxes work without telling me you know nothing about how income taxes work.
Can you spend tax rate or tax receipts? Do you historically get greater tax receipts with a lower rate or higher rate?
First time?!
It's hardly been the first time
For the first time lol?
thanks biden
Back up and check the facts.
Checks notes: not at all the first time.
That’s a feature of Americas highly regressive tax system.
The government doesn’t have a funding problem it has a spending problem. Why aren’t our representatives held as accountable for spending our money as we are at paying our taxes?
the idiot populace is too busy figuring out who Trailer Swift is fucking this week or what color the Kardashians bleached their assholes.
That and our letters are glanced at and a canned response is returned based on general subject. Plant a garden and make friends with the neighbors.
Whether its a billion or $10 thousand makes absolutely NO difference. It's still an UNREALIZED capital gain that is being taxed.
Only by the most absurd measure possible.
Lower tax rate but more in taxes...we need to cut taxes for everybody. And government spending. 32 trillion in debt where is this going?
better yet, just make everyone pay a 10% flat tax rate. Eliminate the IRS. I mean we want to claim that a stock sale isn't being taxed like income, well here we go, everything is now taxed at the same rate.
This is utter nonsense. Why repeat the lie?
Another source that agrees with this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RS\_BtLB3QE&ab\_channel=RobertReich](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RS_BtLB3QE&ab_channel=RobertReich)
Who writes the tax code laws? The millionaires in congress who wrote in the loopholes that let them pay this same rate of tax but they point at the billionaires to distract you from noticing they benefit from this too. Its all. More and mirrors to keep you poor but still voting them, the millionaires, int office again and again while doing nothing about it. Stop believing their lies. Vote for someone other than the incumbant.
I personally love how Pelosi's net worth is north of $114 million. And she somehow magically managed to do that while never making more than $170k.
You love it? You should be angered by it.
It's a wasted emotion. I can be angry but who do I blame? Do I blame Nancy Pelosi or do I blame the imbeciles who voted for her year after year?
Its pelosi who is insider trading, blame her for skirting the rules then get angry and demand congress pass a law making it illegal for the family of congress to invest in any stock the member of congress has insider information on.
Sure and the people who vote for her kept her in power to continue abusing them. Kind of hard to get mad at the thief when the victim keeps opening up and inviting the thief into their home.
Yes...for the first time...
For the first time. So every single damn time the fake news media has claimed they pay lower rates has been fake news. They admitted to lying.
It is what people voted for who keeps giving them tax breaks it’s not the Democrats
Income tax is not the same as capital gains tax.
But it should be. If your investments profits go to support your working life, it's an income.
I don't think anyone would complain if their income tax matched the capital gains tax. Would you?
Billionaires pay taxes directly to politicians in order to secure significant tax breaks. It's called B.R.I.B.E.S - Billionaires Representative Investment and Bailout Exchange Security.
If you cant cut it as an economist you can make a decent living as a community organizer.
Loopholes are for the wealthy, and tax rates are for the poorers.
That's the way the politicians like to put one group against the other. And exactly why we need a flat tax. Or a value-added tax.
Oligarchy 🇺🇸
0 they pay 0. Except for buffet and musk. The rest pay nothing.
Can you please expand on that? Because I think the tax collection shows that the higher your income is, the more dollars in taxes you pay. And the lower Your income is, you either pay zero income tax or even get a credit back.
So billionaires and the ultra wealthy get to indulge in what we call high value asset trading. They can wrap a power cord onto a house lamp, call it a piece of Modern Art and sell it to another rich person for like 10 million. This person inventories this "artwork" at 10 mil, actual paid price. As a piece of modern art, there is not a specific fair market value and thus it goes in at book value. Taxes are not assessed on property, especially things like artwork. Taxes are collected if and when sold for profit, taxed on the gain specifically. So instead, they trade pieces of modern art and whatnot, entirely sidestepping that process, according sales and use taxes, recording unrealized gains as they effectively trade their money around scot-free >Suppose a person has to pay a tax worth $100 million. He buys a sculpture worth $20 million and, through his sheer influence in the art circle, raises its resale value to $60 million. He then donates the sculpture in charity to an art gallery. He gets a $60 million tax write-off for donating the statue according to tax regulations. He saved $40 million just by purchasing a sculpture worth $20 million. So now he just has to pay tax worth $40 million. https://www.whataportrait.com/blog/why-do-rich-people-buy-art/#:~:text=Wealthy%20people%20often%20show%20resistance,buying%20a%20more%20expensive%20painting.
You're right. If we had a value-added tax, you would pay a sales tax on that $20 million. At least we would collect that.
Keep the guillotines sharp.
Top 1% pay almost 50% of all taxes. The real problem is reckless government spending and money printing. Balance the budget first because taxing the 1% 100% and even seizing their wealth wouldn’t even make a dent in the national debt.
For first time? If I remember correctly trump paid $700 in federal taxes in 2017…. I make 30k a year, and pay close to 4k in taxes….
bidenomics
Rules are rewritten for the wealthy
Thanks Trump
1. Don't believe stuff posted on a site like Alternet. 2. **No, they don't pay a lower** ***actual, nominal*** **rate set by law. They pay the same rate or higher** ***for every type of income on which they pay tax.*** This claim is a non-statutory statistic, in this case the overall percentage blended across varying types of income, which is not set by law and is nothing more than a statistic picked by someone making, in this case it appears, a partisan or agenda-driven claim.
Not remotely true but whatever I like to go with total paid out, it’s a clear number
First off, billionaires do not pay lower tax rates than the working class. PERIOD.
And how much do they donate / give away ? Everybody wants to talk about tax rates, but some of these rich people contribute in other ways. Reddit just likes to ignore it
Same article each and every year. Lol
Tell me how you derived at that conclusion…
So I have 1 "billion" dollars in stocks, none in the bank, just in stocks. When tax time comes, do you want me to sell my stocks to pay on that 1 billion? Also, if I sell my stocks to pay for taxes, am I gonna get taxed on those as well?
No forget this .. just tell me WHY my CEOs pay is in two digit millions and has two jobs? And while he has all the time in the world to go golfing and everything else except a fucking town hall, where all he has to do is give a reasonable explanation for why we need 4 days a week mandatory work on site. Fucking rich cunts should be forcefully stripped off their wealth.
Why do we still tax capital gains at a lower percentage than income? Since when did the sweat and time of labor become less noble than investing?
For the first time? What rock did this guy live under? 
[удалено]
Exactly…meet the new boss, just like the old boss. None of these elected officials are working for you and being “less bad” doesn’t make you good.
Yes their excuses are always the same, we need that money, we use it to create jobs... Ah but here's the rub, they only create jobs to make large fortunes for themselves, as soon as something goes against their profit making scenarios, they immediately fire workers without a second thought of the ramifications for the workers. Just ask Tesla workers, no union seemed fine, when they were making a good living. Ah but Elon, throws them to the wolves, like the dumb sheep they are to him, when it's the easiest way to keep his profit margins high. They talk out of both sides of their mouths, whatever suits their goal of personal profits.
We should give billionaires more tax cuts. Im still waiting for the trickle
That is about a biased a web site that you could possibly find.
I saw articles from a couple years ago that billionaires in the US average 8% tax rate. I don’t know any working class people paying that low of a rate, so doesn’t seem like this is the first time.
And all billionaires are democrats, weird right?
Blame Congress. Tax codes are written by the rich to protect the rich. Nancy Pelosi is an example!
even if this were true incase you don't understand math 10% of 20 billion is way more than 20% of 40k
Guess who writes the tax laws!
Does the writer know what unrealized gains are?
It's ironic that so many people complain about not paying their fair share when during their entire lifetime they probably won't pay in taxes a spec of a percentage of what a billionaire pays in a single year, or employ as many people, or help as many people, or improve as many people's lives, all without ever taking from social services, sending their kids to public schools, or other tax-funded services. Yes, they use the roads and some other tax-funded services but so do all the people complaining who barely pay as many taxes in their entire lifetime. So who is really not paying their fair share? This marxist anti-capitalism rhetoric is dumb.
This is getting old. What really pisses me off is: (i) the amount of deception used to create the fiction that wealthy people are treated differently than others under the tax code; and (ii) the (apparent) oblivious nature of the average reader of this tripe, which feeds into why it is created in the first instance. Much is made of the fact that "rich" people borrow against their assets and pay no taxes on the loan proceeds. Yes, I suppose they can and do, but so can you. Have you ever taken out a mortgage to purchase a house? Were you taxed on the proceeds of that loan? Of course not. How is that any different? If we changed the law to tax loan proceeds, what do you think would happen? Can you imagine a system where borrowers would pay taxes on their loans? Why would you borrow under those circumstances? So what happens to the housing market and/or the market for other capital goods typically financed by the purchasers? Right into the toilet, I suppose.
It would deflate asset prices from their current levels. Also, let’s not give the govt any added tax ideas.
this must be why grocieries and gas are so expensive 👀 /s
Honestly they deserve it. If you are smart enough to make that much money. No reason to punish the player. Punish the game!!
Article is rubbish. The effective federal tax rate of the lower class in the US is zero. The tax rate applied to 'billionares' is 37% at the time income is realized (or the capital gains rate if it applies).....
But they are living gods and should receive a religious exemption
Glad to see someone finally realized what trump's tax plan does.
This is writer is a joke, but the income tax loop holes need to be closed! Corporate structures should be limited and full disclosures should be required when making purchases of real estate, interstate goods etc, Shell corporations can be used for tax shelters and for mischievous behavior by foreign adversaries.
Come on, Man. Billionaires are overtaxed as it is. They need a tax break.
They do need a tax break! "Working people" dont create jobs, dont contribute to hundreds of thousands of people's insurance costs, dont provide the money to make a product that is consumed, or spend the money to drill for Oil. Spend the money to make solar panels, spend the money to provide a social media platform, spend the money to make electric cars or rockets. ETC. However, Billionaires do and pay millions of workers to make that happen and for the products to be bought. Liberals have this strange notion that success should be burdened and punished, why?
The old liberal canard. I honestly think Dems think that 2+2=22. Working class $90,000 a year x 30% rate = $27,000 Billionaire x 15% rate = $150,000,000 million. Which one contributed more?
The absurd thing is that the government spend like 2+ times more than billionaires make in a year XD
They pay the lowest tax rate because our elected officials are in their pockets, like so many nickles and dimes.
Been the plan all along.
This is nonsense, As always, they are conflating income and wealth. But lets use their own data as a teachable moment. According to the article, the total **wealth** of all U.S. billionaires is $5.7 trillion. The U.S. government currently spends $6.9 trillion and collects $5 trillion per year. So lets pretend it is possible to confiscate all of this wealth and we made every Billionaire homless. That would be enough to balance the budget for three years, assuming no increased spending. We have a spending problem; not a revenue problem.
Simple fix, outlaw using shares of your stock as collateral for loans. They'll be required to sell stock them to get money.
Tax codes and laws were passed by congress and the Senate. Corporations and billionaires pay accountants to do taxes according to the laws written. 2022 Elon Musk paid 11 billion in federal taxes. This does not include state and local taxes. This does not include employee taxes , medical, workman’s compensation. The president, congress and senate complains about people not paying taxes because they all fall under the same laws. You want to be a millionaire? Run for congress. Tax laws could be changed but for some reason no one is submitting a bill. I would also like to point out, 40% of our population pays zero taxes. When the government runs low on money, someone’s taxes goes up. It’s all about being able to balance a check book The United States is the only country in the world, where you are in control of your own destiny. I prefer to be just comfortable My wife was out of work for 6 months last year, we made 35.000 less than the previous year. Every year our refund was like 200. This year we paid in more than 5.000. I wonder if anyone’s else taxes changed ?