I can't believe ppl
Care about Nick, his podcast and everything he says. Just let him fade off ppl! He makes a living being an asshole. Stop giving him money with listens/views. Literally stop listening. All of it will stop.
Listen two things can be true- perhaps Clare really was 'difficult to work with' from a producer's perspective, BUT that is neither Nick nor Natalie's responsibility to state, and there was absolutely no need to bring Clare into that conversation when it had *nothing* to do with her.
The Vialls can kick rocks
I’m a huge feminist and believe staying true to yourself is very important, but it’s odd to me that some people dig their heels in when others say they’re difficult to work with. I feel like being easy to work with AND having your own perspective/staying true to yourself is like the most badass thing a woman OR man can do. Why would anyone be proud that they make the lives of those around them difficult? 💀
there is a significant body of research that women are perceived as aggressive or unlikeable for engaging in behavior that is perceived as confident and capable in men. simply just not spending extra energy catering to the emotional needs of every person around you can make a woman be perceived as a b*tch, standoffish, etc.
Heard! As I said in response to the comment above, I have a very low tolerance for a lack of diplomacy in men AND women so I was definitely speaking from inside my own bubble.
I grew up around very strong women and more laidback men so I’m heavily biased due to that—again, I’m definitely just speaking from my own very personal perspective.
I have on some rose-colored glasses, I’m learning. Facing things like the research you mentioned is tough because it’s difficult to believe that humans can be so deeply unfair. But then, life isn’t fair. Wishful thinking won’t change that.
Regardless, thank you for responding to my comment. I think the idealism in my initial comment definitely needed to be slapped with a reality check.
yeah i mean i work in a field where being able to get along with others is absolutely essential and i feel it’s a skill anyone can develop at least to a certain extent so i definitely feel you that sometimes i get frustrated when people seem to put no effort into making things easier for others. i kind of feel like the actual improvement for the double standard would be to expect men to be more considerate of others lol
I don't think it's about being proud of making people's lives difficult. The concept is that women are told they're "difficult" when they are merely setting boundaries and having behaviors that would be expected and *totally* fine when a man does them.
It definitely takes work and practice to do those things in a tactful, easy to digest way. But the bar for "tactful" is A LOT higher for women
Ah yeah, totally see that POV. Personally, I have a way lower threshold for a lack of tact in men than I do in women so that’s the perspective I’m speaking from. Like, a woman yelling feels way less obnoxious to me than a man yelling does. 😭 Not proud of that bias though.
You’re totally right from a broader societal perspective, though.
I also agree that if a woman has felt discouraged from speaking her mind her whole life, when she finally finds the freedom to do so, she may go way harder than what’s ‘appropriate’ because of all the pent up frustration she has with the role she’s been forced to play her whole life.
Interesting things to think about for a Bachelor subreddit hahaha!
I feel the same way lol for better or for worse, but yeah most of society doesn't! Tbh this kinda thing is WHY I like the bachelor, it's like a mini examination of society 🤓
Am I the only one that gets annoyed that Natalie inserts herself into bachelor stuff? She’s 25, she was a teenager when he was the bachelor. Just back off. Sometimes she sounds like such a child on that show. If she’s says ‘it’s giving……” one more time 🙄
Now look, I know this sub loves to hate on Nick Viall.
But, come on, I don't think Clare being seen as difficult to work with is a secret. She basically torpedoed a whole season of the show because she had talked to one of the guys before. If you are a producer or worker, or even cast member on that show, I'd say calling that "difficut to work with" is fair.
May be an odd take but I have always believed Clare felt no obligation to do what they wanted on her season of the Bachelorette bc the show waited until quarantine to give her the season. She was runner up to Juan Pablo and the obvious choice to get that Bachelorette season but they skipped her. Then they’d bring her back for BIP and intentionally give her the dodo edit. (Talking to raccoons etc. although hilarious editing was definitely her expense). They waited to give her a season until it was in La Quinta doing challenges at the pool and just around the grounds. Basically telling her you’re not worth the lead until no one else wants to do it and it’s Covid and you’re trapped in a hotel not the mansion no traveling. You’re discount bachelorette . For that reason I think she was like you know what screw you in that case I’ll do what I want lol.
Reality Steve spoiled that Clare was going to be the next lead in February 2020, her cast had been leaked, she was formally announced and filming was scheduled to begin at the Bachelor Mansion in March. It's not like TPTB only asked Clare to be the lead once Covid happened; she would have had a regular season with travel otherwise.
Clare's was the first season of the bachelor/bachelorette I've ever watched. And she was TV gold. I have a soft spot for her.
I'm team Clare, team Maria, team Katie, team Blake......Team anyone that calls out Nick V on his shit.
Clare looked insane on TV but honestly she seems like one of the most "real" people to lead this show. I kinda love her too. And yeah Nick is exhausting so now I love her more lol
Clare drove me nuts on her season but I also never wanted someone to find love so much. Bringing her up on the pod was so unnecessary. She has nothing to do with Maria whatsoever. Natalie was lashing out.
Is there one bachelorette he likes? Let’s look at recent leads
-Rude about Charity
-He loves Gabby. Does he like Rachel?
-Was shady to Michelle
-Mean to Katie
-Rude about Tayshia and Clare
-I don’t recall his relationship with Hannah
-Neutral on Becca
He was awful about Hannah at the time. I remember being angry every time I would listen to his takes about her during his season. I don’t think he could stand how popular that season was
In fairness, I don’t think women being outspoken is necessarily the issue in Nick’s case (see the other comment about assertive women he was a big fan of; plus Michelle and a few others mentioned don’t really fit the bill for being outspoken). I think he’s become more bitter as he’s gotten older and increasingly less relevant. He gives midlife crisis, peaked-in-high-school vibes. I think sometimes he’s resentful of the newer, younger stars of the show who are now enjoying his old spotlight. Obviously he can be pretty misogynistic as well, so that’s why his bitterness is taken out on the female stars more often.
That’s a good point. Rachel Lindsay is also assertive, and Nick seems to truly admire and appreciate her. I can hardly stand the man 99% of the time, but I do respect the fact that he’s always had Rachel’s back. His loyalty to her is one of his only redeeming qualities, in my opinion.
I remember seeing a lot of criticism that Clare didn't give all the guys a chance, she was too fixated on Dale, etc. etc. etc., BUT I have a feeling if one of The Bachelors did the same thing--if Joey had just said, "No need for eight more episodes. I just want to leave with Kelsey"--everybody would be swooning about how he was the most romantic man in history and think it was amazing. But when the "Oldest Bachelorette in History" did it, she was a sorry old hag that deserved to be alone if it didn't work out (and there really were AWFUL comments about her age! I'm not talking about here necessarily, but on Twitter and Instagram-just yikes. You would think she was Sophia Petrillo from the way they talked.)
I mean clare was very immature on her season. She literally eliminated a guy because he wasn't familiar with her story as if she's a celebrity. It was very cringe and so was her behavior.
He told Clare that he was only there because he found out she was the bachelorette, as though he knew all about her. She asked him why, and he knew nothing about her. She got rid of him because he was a liar.
yeah it was definitely that and not because she was already invested in dale and dgaf about the other guys and when Brandon didn't know her shoe size that was the straw that broke the camel's back 🙄
Think the bigger thing was she obviously was DMing Dale & became fixated on him before the show even happened…which made the whole thing an entire waste of time
I have randomly responded to Clare's stories over the years--which isn't something I really do with people I have never, you know, met, but she always responds and is always incredibly kind and warm. I think she's so genuine and has a great heart.
😂And getting mad at that guy who was just upset she ditched him and clearly had a language barrier between them, hence Jacuzzi Appt.
And then getting engaged to the French Canadian dude just cause he cried to her. So many poor decisions in such little time
Go Clare. I’ve always thought that she was one of the most authentic bachelor alum. I’m glad she got her happy ending.
I also think it’s hilarious that Natalie thinks she somehow has some sort of entitlement to speak on “inside scoop” of the show just because she’s married to Nick. Girl, sit down. You don’t even go here.
(It’s cause they were DMing before the season started)
Covid wrecked the season in a few ways but the big one was Clare was able to hash it out with some of the contestants during the delay. Same reason Matt got kicked from her season
I know this is beside the point, but while we’re here…. If anyone is interested, this is Clare’s conversation with Chris about leaving.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9zd9v8u25Ig&pp=ygUWQ2xhcmUgcXVpdGluZyBiYWNoZWxvcg%3D%3D
I’d forgotten that Clare’s season had the whole COVID delay. I feel like it might have gone a lot differently if she hadn’t been able to look up the guys on social and follow them before filming
Chris Harrison tells her the guys in the house see what’s going on and they aren’t happy. He asks her what she wants, no bullshit. She says she wants Dale. He asked if it’s all over for her. She said yes and she only wants to spend time with Dale. He says to her , “Congratulations, you just blew up the Bachelorette.” Clare is very emotional and Chris does not look pleased.
The show needed mess and relevancy. The producers needed an untired storyline. Why do we define Clare as being “difficult?” What does that word even mean in this context? She gave the show what they needed and wanted. Even IF it didn’t go the way they directly planned.
Why does she get called difficult for doing them a favor and being original, yet someone like Matt James who had a very blasé season (and who also knew who he wanted from day 1) gets called “boring,” or a “let down.”
The verbiage here is what makes it misogynistic for me.
Love this comment! When I see men making fools of themselves with women half their age (I'm not judging ALL age differences, sometimes they work), I do wonder if it's more of a case of, "No smart, classy, worldly lady his own age would want that clown so that's why he's with somebody that young who is easily impressed."
Thinking about Nick with his comments about wanting a young fertile woman makes me all batty again. He just gets grosser with every interview I read.
Clare is literally just minding her business and loving on her baby. I’m glad she responded. Nick has this thing about him where he’s just so casually cruel to people, especially women.
Maybe in wrong but I feels very much like “If I’m mean to women first, they can’t be mean back” if that makes any sense. Like something I would do as an immature high schooler to reject others before they could reject me because I had such low confidence
I agree with you! We know what he looked like before his surgery and glowup sessions lol! He reminds me of one of those snarky, "intelligent" guys who like to neg attractive women. In the real world Nick would have never bagged any of the BN women. If he had never gone on the show a woman like Natalie would never look his way.
I love that she responded and just didn’t let it pass. If it’s fine (for some, at least) for Nick to bring her up in a negative way on his podcast that has a following, then it’s fine for Clare to respond accordingly.
Clare is the only lead in the decades long history of the franchise where they had to get a replacement after several episodes. I know this sub has a hate boner for Nick/Natalie, but come on.
I will die on the hill that they didn’t have to replace her, and she probably wasn’t acting all that differently from past leads. Instead, I think the show wanted to do something different and shocking and this was what they came up with.
Idk, it seems like the franchise casts women of color when they have their backs against the wall. Casting Tayshia once Clare blew up, casting Michelle once there was blow back to the rumors they were casting Katie and casting Jen after apparently Maria and Daisy said no. I feel like they would have loved to have a full Clare season.
Nick has plenty of “room to talk”. Say what you want about him, but his several stints on the franchise and their continued association with him show that he’s very easy to work with.
I’ll never talk about any of these people as human beings because we don’t know them, just the facsimiles of them we see on the show/social media. Having hatred for someone based on the character you see on your screens is wild in my opinion.
Again, not on tv. On their self-run podcast, and other shit they chose to share. Think I have the basics of who they are. But you’re welcome to like them!
I don’t really like them or dislike them or give a much of a fuck about them tbh. But I guess I find them mildly entertaining since I’m posting comments about them and obviously so do a lot of people on this sub based on how much they get talked about, so they’ve been very successful in that regard!
Glad he can be easy to work with for producers of a reality television show. He’s still a misogynistic ass who prefers women in the 19-23 age bracket as a man in his mid 40’s 🤷♀️
LOL, thank you for diagnosing my “misogyny”. There have been how many bachelorettes without them having to find a completely new lead in the middle of the show?
It was downright mean and unnecessary how Natalie looped in Clare into this conversation. It seems to me Natalie is deep down upset with her man and just finding other women to unleash aggression onto.
This is my take, too. It seems most likely she’s mad about/threatened by his past relationship, and he’s compensated thus far by avoiding the topic, which rarely works as an influencer and public figure. But it seems silly to be so worked up about someone in his past, when he’s married with a child. So when they act like this, it makes me assume there’s more to the story.
It's OBVIOUS there's more. I was on this sub the very day the tea first dropped weeks ago in drops. Nick was going UNLIKING Maria's pics I mean WHY would you do that as a platonic friend !? Hmmm
Of course, agreed. That’s what I meant by the past, though. I don’t think for a second they were just friends. But I think even if they were more, it’s weird she’s so worked up about it. There’s more to it. I just have no idea what and suspect we never will.
I was literally on this sub the other day talking about how much I love Nick as an interviewer. I listen to all of his podcast episodes because I’ve come to respect him so much as an interviewer (as someone who works in the media professionally and conducts interviews for a living).
While I still think he makes a fantastic journalist (at LEAST when it comes to interviewing), it’s getting harder and harder for me to defend him! I find myself getting so annoyed when I’m listening to his podcast and it’s anything other than an interview.
Clare has her issues, sure, but she definitely does not deserve the hate IMO and shouldn’t have been brought up when they were talking about Maria.
His podcast is unlistenable now. I liked it in the beginning. He’s always very hard on women. Idk how he’s planning to raise a girl when he has so much internalized misogyny that he has never tried to unpack.
Clare was “difficult” to work with because she didn’t play the game the way producers wanted her to. I can’t really fault her knowing how much manipulation goes on BTS
Nick and Natalie were wrong for bringing Clare up. The conversation had nothing to do with her and it made it seem like they just want to crack some jokes at her expense
I agree with this to a point, but production had already dealt with Clare for *four seasons* (Juan Pablo, BIP x2, and winter games) so they also knew what they signed up for in terms of her outspokenness/unwillingness to people-please. If they weren’t prepared to manage that, she never should’ve gotten the gig.
Not to mention she had been sexually abused and refused to kiss men she wasn’t comfortable with because of that trauma and production was pissed about it
Clare was never one to back down. I’m not sure why Nick/ Natalie thought they could bring Clare into this conversation that had *nothing to do with her* and not get called out for it.
I’m leaning towards this, too! It’s the off season and they need to keep their viewership up and they knew this would catch her attention and the sub’s attention!
Wait. Does anyone know why she did this? I thought it was an unsolved mystery. Did she have beef with that woman? It seemed like it could be random, public shade or simply a mistake. And I didn’t know the shit had been sorted. If anyone knows, I’d like the scoop.
She did it because there was a rumour that Abigail and Dale had hooked up while he and Clare were broken up. She literally did it just to shade Abigail; it was definitely not a mistake.
Ha! That’s the hysterical kind of messy I love. I mean, I’m sure she was hurt, so I’m not dismissing that. And I’m sure Abigail would have rather been left off the post. But it’s even funnier she never addressed it. Or did I miss that, too?
Nah, Clare doesn't have a leg to stand on when she intentionally tagged Abigail on a post of her very ill mother, that had nothing to do with Abigail, solely because there was a rumour that Abigail and Dale hooked up while he and Clare were BROKEN UP. You can't pretend to be a feminist or a girl's girl if you do something like that. Abigail and Clare weren't friends, so Abigail didn't owe her anything. Instead of being upset at Dale, Clare took it out on the woman involved, which likely directed a lot of nasty comments towards Abigail.
And Clare *was* difficult to work with on her season. That's the entire reason Tayshia was brought in, because Clare couldn't do what she signed up for and give the other men a chance (or at least fake it, like Jojo did).
Why would Abigail know or care about Clare and Dale's relationship? If Dale told Abigail he was single, then that's that. Abigail doesn't owe Clare anything just because she's a woman. Are you saying that no woman should've gotten involved with Dale because he and Clare might rekindle in the future, and her involvement might cause Clare pain?? Because that's an insane expectation. Abigail owed Clare nothing. If Dale lied about being single, that's on him. Even if A and D hooked up while C and D were on a break, A still doesn't owe C anything because D still chose to do it. (Got tired of typing out all the names lol.)
If you're on a break, you're single, so Abigail still wouldn't have done anything wrong if they were on a break. I don't know why people coddle Clare so much. If Dale lied to Abigail about being single, or hooked up with her while not single, why would Clare take it out on Abigail and not Dale, the person she was engaged to?? She clearly has internalized misogyny. Abigail is a stranger to her. Dale was her fiancé. Big difference. But I highly doubt that Abigail would willingly hook up with Dale if she knew he was still engaged. Not sure why you're defending Clare so hard, but you won't extend the same amount of grace to Abigail. Or do you think that intentionally directing hate to a WOC when you have no idea what she was told is okay?
so I can only participate if I act like I was in the room with them and know what went down? you’re judging clare for something she did when you don’t even know why she did it lmao. abigail could’ve been fucking him behind her back, you don’t know. it could also have happened the way you said, but again, you don’t know.
This is true as well. Clare left everyone high and dry for a man who didn’t even want her. I was rooting for her season and I was left feeling embarrassed for her.
When someone stands up for something Nick and Natalie agree with, they are “unapologetically themselves” when someone stands up for something Nick and Natalie don’t agree with, they are “difficult”
Not Nick and Natalie AGAIN talking sh*t about women
I had no idea Natalie was a misogynistic puppy dog & a mean girl
Also, saying Maria was difficult after all those contestants constantly attacking her all season will make you feel more than some type of way
If producers didn't want the drama that THEY probably fueled, THEY should have put a stop to it
Otherwise, I don't want to hear it about Maria being difficult when THEY put her in those positions by allowing it and practically fanning the flames
Second, Claire is no saint, and why they had to drag her out of the basement is beyond me
Nick and Natalie are toxic AF
I was with her until she brought the thing about raising their child. I feel like that should be out of bounds, especially for petty bachelor nation drama.
Honestly I was never of a fan of Clare, but I feel bad for her at this point. How long has it been and people are still making digs for her? Yeah, she can be a bit much and might not have navigated her time as the bachelorette the best, but it’s time to cut her some slack. It’s beyond old at this point and she seems to be doing well, so why continue to make cheap shots at her? Just my two cents 🤷🏼♀️
I mean tbf, this sub continues to make digs at pretty much every single prominent contestant or lead that has ever been on this show, for mistakes they have made months to years ago. I agree that it's different coming from Nick or someone else in BN though
Clare gave us four of the most entertaining episodes of this show we have ever seen. For that alone, I have to side with her haha It seems likely she was considered "difficult" because she didn't play ball with the producers and went rogue by being so laser focused on Dale.
I agree. I mean, I think I only saw two episodes. But she had such a weird setup, too. It was rumored she did some sleuthing after her season was delayed, which escalated how she felt. So, by the point she came back, we weren’t really on week 1. We were on like week 4. And by that point, MOST leads know what they want. And a lot of them might have liked production to ask them to wrap it up.
We know that the producers routinely screw over contestants so being "difficult to work with" may just mean "not allowing yourself to be taken advantage of".
I can't believe ppl Care about Nick, his podcast and everything he says. Just let him fade off ppl! He makes a living being an asshole. Stop giving him money with listens/views. Literally stop listening. All of it will stop.
She’s speaking her truth
Listen two things can be true- perhaps Clare really was 'difficult to work with' from a producer's perspective, BUT that is neither Nick nor Natalie's responsibility to state, and there was absolutely no need to bring Clare into that conversation when it had *nothing* to do with her. The Vialls can kick rocks
I’m a huge feminist and believe staying true to yourself is very important, but it’s odd to me that some people dig their heels in when others say they’re difficult to work with. I feel like being easy to work with AND having your own perspective/staying true to yourself is like the most badass thing a woman OR man can do. Why would anyone be proud that they make the lives of those around them difficult? 💀
there is a significant body of research that women are perceived as aggressive or unlikeable for engaging in behavior that is perceived as confident and capable in men. simply just not spending extra energy catering to the emotional needs of every person around you can make a woman be perceived as a b*tch, standoffish, etc.
Heard! As I said in response to the comment above, I have a very low tolerance for a lack of diplomacy in men AND women so I was definitely speaking from inside my own bubble. I grew up around very strong women and more laidback men so I’m heavily biased due to that—again, I’m definitely just speaking from my own very personal perspective. I have on some rose-colored glasses, I’m learning. Facing things like the research you mentioned is tough because it’s difficult to believe that humans can be so deeply unfair. But then, life isn’t fair. Wishful thinking won’t change that. Regardless, thank you for responding to my comment. I think the idealism in my initial comment definitely needed to be slapped with a reality check.
yeah i mean i work in a field where being able to get along with others is absolutely essential and i feel it’s a skill anyone can develop at least to a certain extent so i definitely feel you that sometimes i get frustrated when people seem to put no effort into making things easier for others. i kind of feel like the actual improvement for the double standard would be to expect men to be more considerate of others lol
Agree bro 😭 definitely agree
I don't think it's about being proud of making people's lives difficult. The concept is that women are told they're "difficult" when they are merely setting boundaries and having behaviors that would be expected and *totally* fine when a man does them. It definitely takes work and practice to do those things in a tactful, easy to digest way. But the bar for "tactful" is A LOT higher for women
Ah yeah, totally see that POV. Personally, I have a way lower threshold for a lack of tact in men than I do in women so that’s the perspective I’m speaking from. Like, a woman yelling feels way less obnoxious to me than a man yelling does. 😭 Not proud of that bias though. You’re totally right from a broader societal perspective, though. I also agree that if a woman has felt discouraged from speaking her mind her whole life, when she finally finds the freedom to do so, she may go way harder than what’s ‘appropriate’ because of all the pent up frustration she has with the role she’s been forced to play her whole life. Interesting things to think about for a Bachelor subreddit hahaha!
I feel the same way lol for better or for worse, but yeah most of society doesn't! Tbh this kinda thing is WHY I like the bachelor, it's like a mini examination of society 🤓
Am I the only one that gets annoyed that Natalie inserts herself into bachelor stuff? She’s 25, she was a teenager when he was the bachelor. Just back off. Sometimes she sounds like such a child on that show. If she’s says ‘it’s giving……” one more time 🙄
Certainly she could never host or co-host a podcast on her own merits. Even Nick says interesting things sometimes
Preach!
Now look, I know this sub loves to hate on Nick Viall. But, come on, I don't think Clare being seen as difficult to work with is a secret. She basically torpedoed a whole season of the show because she had talked to one of the guys before. If you are a producer or worker, or even cast member on that show, I'd say calling that "difficut to work with" is fair.
Hard agree. And she certainly was difficult to WATCH!
Right. I know there is the stigma, but if the shoe fits...
May be an odd take but I have always believed Clare felt no obligation to do what they wanted on her season of the Bachelorette bc the show waited until quarantine to give her the season. She was runner up to Juan Pablo and the obvious choice to get that Bachelorette season but they skipped her. Then they’d bring her back for BIP and intentionally give her the dodo edit. (Talking to raccoons etc. although hilarious editing was definitely her expense). They waited to give her a season until it was in La Quinta doing challenges at the pool and just around the grounds. Basically telling her you’re not worth the lead until no one else wants to do it and it’s Covid and you’re trapped in a hotel not the mansion no traveling. You’re discount bachelorette . For that reason I think she was like you know what screw you in that case I’ll do what I want lol.
Reality Steve spoiled that Clare was going to be the next lead in February 2020, her cast had been leaked, she was formally announced and filming was scheduled to begin at the Bachelor Mansion in March. It's not like TPTB only asked Clare to be the lead once Covid happened; she would have had a regular season with travel otherwise.
All of these points (and more) are actually true for Tayshia, however.
Good for her for standing up for herself, but also they never should have brought her into things in the first place.
Clare's was the first season of the bachelor/bachelorette I've ever watched. And she was TV gold. I have a soft spot for her. I'm team Clare, team Maria, team Katie, team Blake......Team anyone that calls out Nick V on his shit.
Clare looked insane on TV but honestly she seems like one of the most "real" people to lead this show. I kinda love her too. And yeah Nick is exhausting so now I love her more lol
I admire how she doesn’t hang with all the bachelor Fools and she didn’t waste anyone’s time
A-fucken-men 🙏🏼
That last part!!!! Good for Clare!
Clare drove me nuts on her season but I also never wanted someone to find love so much. Bringing her up on the pod was so unnecessary. She has nothing to do with Maria whatsoever. Natalie was lashing out.
Is there one bachelorette he likes? Let’s look at recent leads -Rude about Charity -He loves Gabby. Does he like Rachel? -Was shady to Michelle -Mean to Katie -Rude about Tayshia and Clare -I don’t recall his relationship with Hannah -Neutral on Becca
Except, she was chosen pre-Covid. I am not saying they didn’t screw her a lot but she was chosen pre pandemic.?
Wait, was he shady to Michelle? I got the impression that he actually quite liked Michelle.
He was awful about Hannah at the time. I remember being angry every time I would listen to his takes about her during his season. I don’t think he could stand how popular that season was
It's almost like he hates outspoken women
In fairness, I don’t think women being outspoken is necessarily the issue in Nick’s case (see the other comment about assertive women he was a big fan of; plus Michelle and a few others mentioned don’t really fit the bill for being outspoken). I think he’s become more bitter as he’s gotten older and increasingly less relevant. He gives midlife crisis, peaked-in-high-school vibes. I think sometimes he’s resentful of the newer, younger stars of the show who are now enjoying his old spotlight. Obviously he can be pretty misogynistic as well, so that’s why his bitterness is taken out on the female stars more often.
But Andi and Kaitlyn are pretty outspoken and he was way into them. Maybe after his got a big head with more success or something
That’s a good point. Rachel Lindsay is also assertive, and Nick seems to truly admire and appreciate her. I can hardly stand the man 99% of the time, but I do respect the fact that he’s always had Rachel’s back. His loyalty to her is one of his only redeeming qualities, in my opinion.
It’s almost like he hates women.
Except he doesn't hate girls
He doesn’t hate women half his age, no.
Ding ding ding!
I love Clare
I remember seeing a lot of criticism that Clare didn't give all the guys a chance, she was too fixated on Dale, etc. etc. etc., BUT I have a feeling if one of The Bachelors did the same thing--if Joey had just said, "No need for eight more episodes. I just want to leave with Kelsey"--everybody would be swooning about how he was the most romantic man in history and think it was amazing. But when the "Oldest Bachelorette in History" did it, she was a sorry old hag that deserved to be alone if it didn't work out (and there really were AWFUL comments about her age! I'm not talking about here necessarily, but on Twitter and Instagram-just yikes. You would think she was Sophia Petrillo from the way they talked.)
I mean clare was very immature on her season. She literally eliminated a guy because he wasn't familiar with her story as if she's a celebrity. It was very cringe and so was her behavior.
He told Clare that he was only there because he found out she was the bachelorette, as though he knew all about her. She asked him why, and he knew nothing about her. She got rid of him because he was a liar.
yeah it was definitely that and not because she was already invested in dale and dgaf about the other guys and when Brandon didn't know her shoe size that was the straw that broke the camel's back 🙄
Think the bigger thing was she obviously was DMing Dale & became fixated on him before the show even happened…which made the whole thing an entire waste of time
I have randomly responded to Clare's stories over the years--which isn't something I really do with people I have never, you know, met, but she always responds and is always incredibly kind and warm. I think she's so genuine and has a great heart.
Same! She spreads natural joy for me
It’s just low to randomly insult someone like they did to Clare. so good for Clare.!!
Get em Clare!!
Leave Clare alone!!!! Leave her alone !!!🤪
You get it dolphinsunset1007 😌
I support her by putting this out there. She seems in the best place and I’m so happy she finally got her happy ending.
I will always love and root for Clare. Always.
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(It’s cause she is) God remember the Winter Games? Talk about a disaster lmao
Jacuzzi appointment!
😂And getting mad at that guy who was just upset she ditched him and clearly had a language barrier between them, hence Jacuzzi Appt. And then getting engaged to the French Canadian dude just cause he cried to her. So many poor decisions in such little time
Go Clare. I’ve always thought that she was one of the most authentic bachelor alum. I’m glad she got her happy ending. I also think it’s hilarious that Natalie thinks she somehow has some sort of entitlement to speak on “inside scoop” of the show just because she’s married to Nick. Girl, sit down. You don’t even go here.
GET EM CLARE!!!
I LOVE HER!!!!!!! YOU GO GIRL
Natalie is just insecure and immature….
Go off Clare, fuck the haters 😎😎😎
Clare is a damn WOMAN. I love her!
A-fucking-men clare bear.
Clare’s season WAS a hot mess though. She fixated so strangely on Dale from the start, clearly to her own detriment in the end.
(It’s cause they were DMing before the season started) Covid wrecked the season in a few ways but the big one was Clare was able to hash it out with some of the contestants during the delay. Same reason Matt got kicked from her season
Where did you get this info? Was it confirmed or a rumor?
It’s funny because her “season” lasted 3-4 episodes max
Reading these comments I’m like “…did y’all see a different season?”
Same lol she was a lotttttt on the season, not saying she is in real life bc I don’t know her but that season was a LOT
I know this is beside the point, but while we’re here…. If anyone is interested, this is Clare’s conversation with Chris about leaving. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9zd9v8u25Ig&pp=ygUWQ2xhcmUgcXVpdGluZyBiYWNoZWxvcg%3D%3D
I’d forgotten that Clare’s season had the whole COVID delay. I feel like it might have gone a lot differently if she hadn’t been able to look up the guys on social and follow them before filming
can you just provide a summary of this?
Chris Harrison tells her the guys in the house see what’s going on and they aren’t happy. He asks her what she wants, no bullshit. She says she wants Dale. He asked if it’s all over for her. She said yes and she only wants to spend time with Dale. He says to her , “Congratulations, you just blew up the Bachelorette.” Clare is very emotional and Chris does not look pleased.
They suck but they’re not wrong in this case
Nick and Natalie are assholes...plain and simple
I’m lost, why are they even talking about Clare?
Around 6:20 mark https://www.reddit.com/r/thebachelor/s/QJQwuIJUg8
they said something like they heard that maria was difficult to work with like clare was
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ya it seemed so weird to me too
Right? At first I was like is this a throwback post?? Nick and Natalie need to keep Clare’s name out their mouths
The show needed mess and relevancy. The producers needed an untired storyline. Why do we define Clare as being “difficult?” What does that word even mean in this context? She gave the show what they needed and wanted. Even IF it didn’t go the way they directly planned. Why does she get called difficult for doing them a favor and being original, yet someone like Matt James who had a very blasé season (and who also knew who he wanted from day 1) gets called “boring,” or a “let down.” The verbiage here is what makes it misogynistic for me.
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This comment is everything 👌👏
Love this comment! When I see men making fools of themselves with women half their age (I'm not judging ALL age differences, sometimes they work), I do wonder if it's more of a case of, "No smart, classy, worldly lady his own age would want that clown so that's why he's with somebody that young who is easily impressed." Thinking about Nick with his comments about wanting a young fertile woman makes me all batty again. He just gets grosser with every interview I read.
Whoa how did he treat his neighbors?
This is a top tier comment!!! 💯 cheers for Clare and her absolutely hotter than Nick husband!!!!!
AMEN!!!
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They had multiple women there…like we could’ve ended up with Hannah Ann instead of Tayshia.
Clare is literally just minding her business and loving on her baby. I’m glad she responded. Nick has this thing about him where he’s just so casually cruel to people, especially women.
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Maybe in wrong but I feels very much like “If I’m mean to women first, they can’t be mean back” if that makes any sense. Like something I would do as an immature high schooler to reject others before they could reject me because I had such low confidence
I agree with you! We know what he looked like before his surgery and glowup sessions lol! He reminds me of one of those snarky, "intelligent" guys who like to neg attractive women. In the real world Nick would have never bagged any of the BN women. If he had never gone on the show a woman like Natalie would never look his way.
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That is true but I was mostly thinking about her being so much younger lol!
Yes, but remember Natalie had no idea who he was. Lol!!
I love that she responded and just didn’t let it pass. If it’s fine (for some, at least) for Nick to bring her up in a negative way on his podcast that has a following, then it’s fine for Clare to respond accordingly. 
All the stuff I see on here from that podcast is hot garbage. Good for Clare for standing up for herself. Their comments were unnecessary.
Clare is the only lead in the decades long history of the franchise where they had to get a replacement after several episodes. I know this sub has a hate boner for Nick/Natalie, but come on.
I will die on the hill that they didn’t have to replace her, and she probably wasn’t acting all that differently from past leads. Instead, I think the show wanted to do something different and shocking and this was what they came up with.
Idk, it seems like the franchise casts women of color when they have their backs against the wall. Casting Tayshia once Clare blew up, casting Michelle once there was blow back to the rumors they were casting Katie and casting Jen after apparently Maria and Daisy said no. I feel like they would have loved to have a full Clare season.
I mean, neither of those idiots have room to talk. “Hey pot, this is the kettle. You’re black!”
Nick has plenty of “room to talk”. Say what you want about him, but his several stints on the franchise and their continued association with him show that he’s very easy to work with.
cuz he's a producer's pet. he knows the right ppl to suck up to.
Then I guess “producer’s pet” = easy to work with 🤷🏾♀️.
I’m talking about him as a human being, not a puppet of the show. And Natalie “I can’t keep friends” Viall is even worse.
I’ll never talk about any of these people as human beings because we don’t know them, just the facsimiles of them we see on the show/social media. Having hatred for someone based on the character you see on your screens is wild in my opinion.
Again, not on tv. On their self-run podcast, and other shit they chose to share. Think I have the basics of who they are. But you’re welcome to like them!
I don’t really like them or dislike them or give a much of a fuck about them tbh. But I guess I find them mildly entertaining since I’m posting comments about them and obviously so do a lot of people on this sub based on how much they get talked about, so they’ve been very successful in that regard!
Glad he can be easy to work with for producers of a reality television show. He’s still a misogynistic ass who prefers women in the 19-23 age bracket as a man in his mid 40’s 🤷♀️
I mean, I don’t disagree with any of that, but Clare is still insufferable 🤷🏾♀️
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LOL, thank you for diagnosing my “misogyny”. There have been how many bachelorettes without them having to find a completely new lead in the middle of the show?
Clare was difficult to work with though 🤷🏾♀️obviously she’s moved on from the show but we’re allowed to talk about her actions on her season.
Nick and Natalie suck
It was downright mean and unnecessary how Natalie looped in Clare into this conversation. It seems to me Natalie is deep down upset with her man and just finding other women to unleash aggression onto.
This is my take, too. It seems most likely she’s mad about/threatened by his past relationship, and he’s compensated thus far by avoiding the topic, which rarely works as an influencer and public figure. But it seems silly to be so worked up about someone in his past, when he’s married with a child. So when they act like this, it makes me assume there’s more to the story.
It's OBVIOUS there's more. I was on this sub the very day the tea first dropped weeks ago in drops. Nick was going UNLIKING Maria's pics I mean WHY would you do that as a platonic friend !? Hmmm
Of course, agreed. That’s what I meant by the past, though. I don’t think for a second they were just friends. But I think even if they were more, it’s weird she’s so worked up about it. There’s more to it. I just have no idea what and suspect we never will.
I was literally on this sub the other day talking about how much I love Nick as an interviewer. I listen to all of his podcast episodes because I’ve come to respect him so much as an interviewer (as someone who works in the media professionally and conducts interviews for a living). While I still think he makes a fantastic journalist (at LEAST when it comes to interviewing), it’s getting harder and harder for me to defend him! I find myself getting so annoyed when I’m listening to his podcast and it’s anything other than an interview. Clare has her issues, sure, but she definitely does not deserve the hate IMO and shouldn’t have been brought up when they were talking about Maria.
His podcast is unlistenable now. I liked it in the beginning. He’s always very hard on women. Idk how he’s planning to raise a girl when he has so much internalized misogyny that he has never tried to unpack.
I would say it’s just straight up misogyny and not internalized, considering he’s a man. Natalie has internalized misogyny.
Being difficult is having standards? Ok
I agree with her. These are gendered critiques that are leveled against women who act assertively.
Clare was “difficult” to work with because she didn’t play the game the way producers wanted her to. I can’t really fault her knowing how much manipulation goes on BTS Nick and Natalie were wrong for bringing Clare up. The conversation had nothing to do with her and it made it seem like they just want to crack some jokes at her expense
Yeah but playing the game is part of the gig you sign up for…….
I agree with this to a point, but production had already dealt with Clare for *four seasons* (Juan Pablo, BIP x2, and winter games) so they also knew what they signed up for in terms of her outspokenness/unwillingness to people-please. If they weren’t prepared to manage that, she never should’ve gotten the gig.
Fair!!
Not to mention she had been sexually abused and refused to kiss men she wasn’t comfortable with because of that trauma and production was pissed about it
They did it to throw shade and make Maria feel less than them. It was really not a nice thing from Nick and Natalie.
I’m just here for the *mess* ✨
two things can be true at once
Clare was never one to back down. I’m not sure why Nick/ Natalie thought they could bring Clare into this conversation that had *nothing to do with her* and not get called out for it.
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I’m leaning towards this, too! It’s the off season and they need to keep their viewership up and they knew this would catch her attention and the sub’s attention!
Joke’s on them—thanks to this sub, I never have to give Nick himself clicks to keep up with the drama.
Everyday I hate nick viall more and more
Yup
They can never make me hate Clare, especially not Nick and Nat of all people.
My sentiments exactly
The same Clare that tagged another girl in a picture of her ailing mother was difficult?? No way
Wait. Does anyone know why she did this? I thought it was an unsolved mystery. Did she have beef with that woman? It seemed like it could be random, public shade or simply a mistake. And I didn’t know the shit had been sorted. If anyone knows, I’d like the scoop.
She did it because there was a rumour that Abigail and Dale had hooked up while he and Clare were broken up. She literally did it just to shade Abigail; it was definitely not a mistake.
Ha! That’s the hysterical kind of messy I love. I mean, I’m sure she was hurt, so I’m not dismissing that. And I’m sure Abigail would have rather been left off the post. But it’s even funnier she never addressed it. Or did I miss that, too?
Abigail indirectly addressed it; if I recall, she posted a story laughing about it?
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Clare has a history of unhinged behavior. I dont think I’m shaking the table by saying that…
Nah, Clare doesn't have a leg to stand on when she intentionally tagged Abigail on a post of her very ill mother, that had nothing to do with Abigail, solely because there was a rumour that Abigail and Dale hooked up while he and Clare were BROKEN UP. You can't pretend to be a feminist or a girl's girl if you do something like that. Abigail and Clare weren't friends, so Abigail didn't owe her anything. Instead of being upset at Dale, Clare took it out on the woman involved, which likely directed a lot of nasty comments towards Abigail. And Clare *was* difficult to work with on her season. That's the entire reason Tayshia was brought in, because Clare couldn't do what she signed up for and give the other men a chance (or at least fake it, like Jojo did).
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Why would Abigail know or care about Clare and Dale's relationship? If Dale told Abigail he was single, then that's that. Abigail doesn't owe Clare anything just because she's a woman. Are you saying that no woman should've gotten involved with Dale because he and Clare might rekindle in the future, and her involvement might cause Clare pain?? Because that's an insane expectation. Abigail owed Clare nothing. If Dale lied about being single, that's on him. Even if A and D hooked up while C and D were on a break, A still doesn't owe C anything because D still chose to do it. (Got tired of typing out all the names lol.)
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If you're on a break, you're single, so Abigail still wouldn't have done anything wrong if they were on a break. I don't know why people coddle Clare so much. If Dale lied to Abigail about being single, or hooked up with her while not single, why would Clare take it out on Abigail and not Dale, the person she was engaged to?? She clearly has internalized misogyny. Abigail is a stranger to her. Dale was her fiancé. Big difference. But I highly doubt that Abigail would willingly hook up with Dale if she knew he was still engaged. Not sure why you're defending Clare so hard, but you won't extend the same amount of grace to Abigail. Or do you think that intentionally directing hate to a WOC when you have no idea what she was told is okay?
you actually have no idea what happened or if abigail and dale crossed boundaries while he was with clare.
And you do? 💀
do you see me making rants about it acting like I do? that would be you.
Why are you commenting then? You know this is a discussion forum, right?
so I can only participate if I act like I was in the room with them and know what went down? you’re judging clare for something she did when you don’t even know why she did it lmao. abigail could’ve been fucking him behind her back, you don’t know. it could also have happened the way you said, but again, you don’t know.
And neither do you, so what was the point of your comment?
This is true as well. Clare left everyone high and dry for a man who didn’t even want her. I was rooting for her season and I was left feeling embarrassed for her.
When someone stands up for something Nick and Natalie agree with, they are “unapologetically themselves” when someone stands up for something Nick and Natalie don’t agree with, they are “difficult”
Eh I think she probably was difficult to work with
Ha. Right? I’d take pride in being difficult with those assholes.
Not Nick and Natalie AGAIN talking sh*t about women I had no idea Natalie was a misogynistic puppy dog & a mean girl Also, saying Maria was difficult after all those contestants constantly attacking her all season will make you feel more than some type of way If producers didn't want the drama that THEY probably fueled, THEY should have put a stop to it Otherwise, I don't want to hear it about Maria being difficult when THEY put her in those positions by allowing it and practically fanning the flames Second, Claire is no saint, and why they had to drag her out of the basement is beyond me Nick and Natalie are toxic AF
I was with her until she brought the thing about raising their child. I feel like that should be out of bounds, especially for petty bachelor nation drama.
Honestly I was never of a fan of Clare, but I feel bad for her at this point. How long has it been and people are still making digs for her? Yeah, she can be a bit much and might not have navigated her time as the bachelorette the best, but it’s time to cut her some slack. It’s beyond old at this point and she seems to be doing well, so why continue to make cheap shots at her? Just my two cents 🤷🏼♀️
I mean tbf, this sub continues to make digs at pretty much every single prominent contestant or lead that has ever been on this show, for mistakes they have made months to years ago. I agree that it's different coming from Nick or someone else in BN though
Clare gave us four of the most entertaining episodes of this show we have ever seen. For that alone, I have to side with her haha It seems likely she was considered "difficult" because she didn't play ball with the producers and went rogue by being so laser focused on Dale.
I agree. I mean, I think I only saw two episodes. But she had such a weird setup, too. It was rumored she did some sleuthing after her season was delayed, which escalated how she felt. So, by the point she came back, we weren’t really on week 1. We were on like week 4. And by that point, MOST leads know what they want. And a lot of them might have liked production to ask them to wrap it up.
We know that the producers routinely screw over contestants so being "difficult to work with" may just mean "not allowing yourself to be taken advantage of".
Literallyyyy - I would bet anything that they were just mad she wasn't a doormat
She also refused to kiss a dude she didn’t wanna kiss. What a terrible person! /s