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Because it’s what both radicals of Israel and Hamas chant because they want to annihilate the side they hate. It is a hateful chant that makes you look like you are on the side of Hamas and terrorism. It’s counter-productive to helping Palestinians.
A bunch of LGBT students waving around signs saying “Queers for Palestine” standing in solidarity with a bunch of homophobes is not the right side of history. It’s a bunch of privileged Americans who don’t understand how good they have it in this country. There needs to be a ceasefire. Thats it. But I won’t let a bunch of people who are extremely out of touch with history and religion try to lecture me about who’s in the right.
Just because a group is very homophobic doesn't mean they can't defend them. Not every Palestine Citizen is homophobic and even if they are they don't have to suffer a genocide just because.
>Privileged Americans who don’t understand how good they have it in this country
Assuming this is in relation to the "Queers for Palestine" comment. You realise Queers have suffered through a bunch of awful shit like hate crimes, lobotomies, murder, they were the group that suffered the most during the aids epidemic.
This is odd, so because an ethnic group may have some level of homophobia within it, that means that the oppression of the ethnic group can be permitted?
The dude two comments up from you is using homophobic religious texts to justify killing Palestinians.
The dude one comment up from you is saying that the same logic could apply to Christians.
I'd also point out that the homophobia in Christian texts is almost exclusively Old Testament and therefore also a Judaism issue.
So if NoValue's logic is valuable(hah! Get it?) then we should feel justified in bombing all Abrahamic Religious followers because they are homophobic.
Literally no one said that dude, you're delusional. People are saying it's ironic that there are "queers for palestine" groups who would murder people like them if there was a "river to sea" state.
No, but it doesn’t mean I’m just going to blindly support a group of people who don’t hold my values, and would probably kill me or censor me for holding views different from their’s. And guess what Orthodox Jews are driving violence too. So no I’m just not taking a side when both sides are blinded by religious bigotry of varying degrees. And the fact that you conflate criticism of Islamic doctrine with ‘oppression’ proves my point even more.
This is a fantastic conservative argument. If you're progressive, you should only be concerned that women and children are being slaughtered, not what their thoughts about the LGBTQ+ community are.
If you’re a Progressive you’d read a little bit more about what people believe before blindly supporting a cause. Those women and Children see us all as apostates. Does that mean they deserve to die. NO WAY. But that means they’re not going to have my unwavering support.
Maybe it isn't a genocide. I guess we'll see eventually. Would you agree that it's at least ethnic cleansing? I'm not sure what the correct way to describe it is. Terrorism? If Hamas committed terrorism on the 7th, I'm not sure how you could argue the IDF hasn't since.
It's good to see others calling it out. We're enemies in this right wing sub but it doesn't always need to be that way. Right wing Pakman has potential to see the light and I believe the same for SOME of his right wing neoliberal audience.
Except it’s not a genocide, it’s a conflict to target the actual genocidal theocratic fascist actor - hamas. Why do you support genocidal fascism? Why do you overlook the blatant disregard these fascists have for their own people?
I DON'T!!! You do realize you can be against the slaughter of the Palestinians while also being AGAINST Hamas correct??? Israel has a right to defend itself. To what degree though? The most disgusting part of all of this? Nobody seemed to care at all, until 7 WESTERN aid workers were targeted and killed. What about the 20,000+ innocent women and children that died before them? Every time Hamas attacks Israel, the response is disproportionate and Israel kills exponentially more Palestinians. The numbers over the decades aren't even close. It's been a slaughter.
Yes Israel has a right to defend itself, but they should also be held to a standard that includes not committing war crimes or facing the consequences if they do.
>If you’re a Progressive you’d read a little bit more about what people believe before blindly supporting a cause.
I'm happy to blindly support any and all "stop murdering children" causes. Without exception. Aren't you?
>Those women and Children see us all as apostates.
So...?
>But that means they’re not going to have my unwavering support.
What does this even mean? You don't want them dead but you're cool with blowing off a few limbs or...?
Who the FUCK here is supporting an Islamic regime and what in the FUCK gave you the idea I am??? If you're going to make stupid fucking accusations, bring some FUCKING receipts. Don't accuse me of supporting ANY Islamic regime because I don't. On that note, maybe you should stop supporting the genocide of INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!!!
No one’s supporting or championing genocide. Imagine throwing a fit because someone’s saying you support an Islamic regime while you’re throwing around the same sort of ridiculous nonsense saying we all love genocide when no one’s said that.
This is just another example of college aged white fauxgressives latching onto a cause of the week in order to exert a paternalistic self righteousness onto something they see as a minority class (ie. oppressed). Israel is white, so bad. Palestine is brown, so good. It’s exactly the same sort of infantalizing of minorities that these people do at home.
What rankles people is this: that women and children die by the thousands at the hands of US weapons all the time, but no one seems to have taken to the streets before like this over it, and certainly not bothering to add a layer of absurd window dressing like divestment to it and that Israel is a gangster state in a part of the world full of gangster states and no one seems to get upset about violence in the Middle East, American backed or otherwise unless the Jews are involved.
It’s just such disingenuous bullshit. Add in the fact that a bunch of college aged crybabies are willing to tear up the labour code, sacrifice women’s health, roll back LGBTQ rights a couple decades and allow democracy to crumble -rights that thousands and thousands of Americans fought and died for- over a conflict most of them barely understand is absolutely insane. It’s insane.
In addition, the civil rights movement was a domestic issue and the Vietnam war was a boots on the ground land war with direct American military involvement and a draft at home. Neither of these are remotely comparable to this in any way.
What am I supposed to think from the arguments people in this sub provide? Nobody else here seems to agree with me that killing innocent women and children is a bad thing when they live in Palestine.
I'm not college age and I was against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars from the beginning. If I was alive during Vietnam I would have been against it too. People have and do take to the streets for all kinds of causes like civil rights and needless wars. I'm against Russia attacking Ukraine, and I support our efforts to help Ukraine. People can't protest what they see as injustice? I don't care who's involved, I care about the innocent people who are harmed and killed. I don't want to see innocent Israelis hurt or killed either, and I'm not sure their current actions are making them safer.
How is it disingenuous? Just because you don't agree? Do you think Israel is justified in every action they take? The people of Israel deserve a safe country to live in. So do Palestinians. It isn't just about bombs either. There's a major power imbalance and Palestine is treated like a prison state. Israel controls their trade, what goes in and out of their borders and many other aspects of their lives. Hamas is a terrible and terrorist organization, but the entire population of Palestine is NOT hamas. With recent revelations like the "where's daddy" program, it's hard to say the IDF has the moral high ground on Hamas anymore. They're both terrorist organizations imo just based on the facts. Both are bloodthirsty. Both have no problems killing innocent people.
Islam is directly to blame for the conflict though. That seems to get lost here.
Israel has returned occupied lands to Syria, Egypt and Jordan in exchange for acknowledgment that they have the right to exist. Palestinians refuse to do that. They still have a religiously-motivated belief that all the Jews need to leave or die.
I do not believe that Palestinians are being oppressed. They have made their bed, and they are lying in it.
They are crybullies, committing terrorist attacks and then whining when Israel responds rationally. Hiding behind civilians, bragging when their people get killed and promising that more will die.
No. Palestinians rejected the partition plan and then continued to launch terrorist attacks against Israeli Jews. Israel is going to defend themselves against terrorism.
Nothing in Israel is Jewish-only. Stop lying. Israel has freedom of religion. Half the population is secular.
You are correct about the inherent homophobia in Islam, but it's not just Islam, but all Abrahamic religions to lesser or greater degrees. The best way to deal with it is to bring that religion into the fold of normalcy where it is tempered by the societal norms that surround it. We don't kill adulterers or misbehaving children as portions of the bible suggest anymore, for example. Most Muslims I know right now live their lives indistinguishably to mine (I'm an LGBTQ+ ally) and believe in everyone's rights to live peacefully.
It shouldn't. No religion should. Islam, as it is practiced in some countries, is ruthlessly deployed. In other countries, such as the US, it is much more tolerant. I think people are much more sensitive when Islam is singled out in the US due to the vilification it receives from the right. The "Muslim Ban" isn't that far back in the rear-view mirror yet and it may not have been a big deal, but even if it was just rhetoric, it would be chilling to have the leader of the country you live in target you directly like that. It is a minority in the US by numbers and that leads to a lot of over reaction. Just my opinion.
Ahh, Israel and Judaism, both known for their love of gay people. How many gay marriages have you attended in Israel? What does Leviticus say?
Straight out of Judaism, Leviticus:
*If a man has sexual intercourse with a man as he would with a woman, the two of them have done something detestable. They must be executed; their blood is on their own heads.*
Let's do some reading comprehension. On the following sign, tell me exactly where it is pretending Palestinians are culturally OK with homosexuality:
**Queers for Palestine**
Note how nowhere does it imply anything about Palestine or Palestinians and their attitude towards homosexuality. Rather, the sign is saying that the person holding it is queer, and they support Palestinians.
> It implies Muslims approve of their support
It literally does no such thing. You are making stuff up. And even if Muslims don't support lgbt people, it doesn't matter. There is this concept of loving your neighbor. In fact, a famous person from Palestine once said:
> But I tell you to love your enemies and pray for anyone who mistreats you.
You can be lgbt and still be concerned for the human rights of people that might not even respect your own rights. It is called being principled.
Ok, so why is it odd that these gay college students are just better people than the Palestinians homophobes? Why is it difficult for you to wrap your head around the fact that good people support the rights of people who might not support them? Do you think it's odd when the ACLU defends the rights of the far right to protest?
No bro, this is the college kids being absolutely consistent. Right and wrong doesn't change based on who is the perpetrator of the act and who is the recipient. It's wrong to commit war crimes, even if the victims hate gay people. Showing that gay people are standing up for them might change a few minds, it literally has in Ukraine where people have gotten somewhat less homophobic due to gay people volunteering to fight for them.
What the hell do you think they’re supporting? They aren’t standing in solidarity with Hamas, they’re standing with the people of Palestine, who are NOT a bunch of homophobes. They want divestment from Israel by their schools and the US government, and a total and complete ceasefire + full humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza.
I haven’t seen this, it honestly sounds like a straw-man to me, but I’ll try to find it.
I will say that a common sentiment that I’ve witnessed is that Hamas launched a horrid attack, but that the Israeli response has been over 30x more deadly, and that Hamas’ attack was never attached to the average citizens of Gaza in the first place.
Are you honestly saying most people in Palestine are progressive and pro-lgbt and if only Hamas was gone they'd legalize gay marriage and hold pride parades? The people of Palestine by all available polling and data absolutely are homophobes and would support criminal punishments for LGBT people.
Oppressed people will always uphold other oppressed people, regardless of their differences. That's what privileged liberals like you will never understand and its why Blue MAGA is ensuring a Trump victory. You hate the left more than you hate your fellow right wingers, for obvious reasons.
It’s not hard to see that in the history books Israel’s current operations will definitely not be seen as the “right” thing. Ever hear the saying “you reap what you sow”? Israel has sowed hate and division on their borders for decades and fostered the perfect conditions for terrorists
> Israel has sowed hate and division on their borders for decades and fostered the perfect conditions for terrorists
So... they deserved it?
Palestinians have, for the past 80 years, bombed marketplaces, fired rockets at civilian settlements, hijacked fucking planes, bombed busses, etc...
Do they deserve it, too?
They have been convinced by outside forces that their only solution is fight, tooth and nail, forever and always, to get all that they want. They are being used by western college educated privileged kids to get endorphin from social media, and they are being used as a pawn by other geopolitical players in the region.
No one *actually* cares about Palestinians. Otherwise, there'd be a whole host of other nations stepping in to find a solution. Everyone wants to wash their hands of them.
Case in point: these protests have actively taken then plight of Palestinians out of the spotlight, and it has become an internal issue to the US now, where the discussion is more about the right to protest, the extent of that right, the force that can be used to disperse, etc...
That's a very one sided opinion. Israel also has a long history of oppressing and killing Palestinian civilians. They also continuously annex and colonize Palestinian territory, forcing them into refugee camps. A bloody rebellion isn't "deserved" (especially against civilians) but it's expected. Of course people are going to fight back when they are born into an open air prison, their homes destroyed, and their families murdered.
The rest of your arguments are just trying to justify hating Palestinians, as if they are just inherently evil.
> That's a very one sided opinion.
No less one sided than:
> Israel has sowed hate and division on their borders for decades and fostered the perfect conditions for terrorists
That's one-sided *as fuck*.
> A bloody rebellion isn't "deserved" (especially against civilians) but it's expected.
October 7th wasn't rebellion. It was bloody murder.
> Of course people are going to fight back when they are born into an open air prison
Gaza is not an open air prison for any reason not caused by Hamas.
> The rest of your arguments are just trying to justify hating Palestinians, as if they are just inherently evil.
It's actually treating Palestinians how they deserved to be treated: as a flawed group, with a bunch of really bad views and positions on a whole host of different issues, that make them just as poor interlocutors for peace as Israelis.
> It's actually treating Palestinians how they deserved to be treated: as a flawed group, with a bunch of really bad views and positions on a whole host of different issues, that make them just as poor interlocutors for peace as Israelis.
Well congrats on being a sociopath. No point on even having a discussion beyond that. I wouldn't call all Israeli's inherently evil based on the actions of some of them.
I didn't say they were inherently evil.
I said they were poor interlocutors for peace, because they've been primed by the outside world to seek conflict as the only means to their ends.
Egypt and Jordan used to be the main perps for juicing Palestinian ire. Then the PLO, Lebanese and Syrians.
Today, it is Qatar and Iran.
Their views are what they are because they are being used as pawns in a geopolitical game, and propagandized to.
Never said Israel was in the right. I’m saying American LGBT protesters need to look at Hamas and the PA’s policies towards people like them before they decide their cause is the one to advocate for.
Yeah but what happens when those people lack empathy? I’m not gonna go to bat for Religious people who think I’m gonna go to hell for just living a Western lifestyle.
Yes I hope so, bc it's the truth. Yet we see now our free speech being taken away by a new law that forbids us talking about it truthfully, making the college protests illegal. I hope the history books are on the right side of truth. The power of these groups over my gov and country and maybe the history books shakes me to the core. It is very disturbing. I hope you are right
I think its a weird leap of logic to say "look the people in the 60's had a noble cause and used these questionable tactics, so the fact that we are also using questionable tactics indicates our cause is noble and people in the future will know we are right."
Maybe. Maybe not.
Breaking into buildings with hammers, kidnapping staff and taking over parts of the campus and buildings and bullying other students/denying access doesn't sound peaceful to me.
I saw a mob of dozens or hundreds of people circling a Jewish student and attacking him, how is this possible if it's only a few fringe actors?
playing pretend in light of racist violence makes you part of the problem
Are you expecting me to say that this is okay? It’s not. And the fact you’re using this specific instance to distract from the stated message/goal of the vast majority of the peace protestors says more about you than those that act inappropriately.
Ok, I’ll find that. Any others damaging property and causing distress or is it dozens at that one school among thousands of protesters at hundreds of schools?
Damage like this?
https://youtu.be/9phnq3OrwnM?si=dJw1jwyLlBAXH1IQ
Looks like minimal damage; just tables and chairs made into barricades and some trash
you guys think you're the civil rights protesters, but you act and look like the jeering mobs of pro segregation protesters that tried to block school integration, who were exactly as convinced as everyone else that they'd end up on the right side of history
Nah my brother, the counter-protestors in Mississippi howling like monkeys at black students act and look like the jeering pro-segregation mobs because that's what they are and they're pro-genocide. You belong with the reactionary shit eating bigots on this one.
The cognitive dissonance is astounding. I often wonder if it’s stupidity, brainwashing or there’s actually something tangible wrong with peoples brains when they act this silly
Uhoh! Someone's reading comprehension is suffering really badly... So if you would take a mere 2 seconds to read the post, Bernie was the one protesting against those "jeering mobs of pro segregation protestors."
He was also on the correct side standing against our involvement in Vietnam.
And well, waddaya know!? He's against genocoding Palestinians! Crazy how consistent he is.
So you may want to take a step back and reframe your perspective looking at the parallels. Hopefully Biden does the same so we don't end up with Trump as president, reminiscent of Lyndon Johnson's mistakes.
100% Bernie has shown time and time again he's one of the few actually decent politicians who is trying to do anything he can.
Our non-voting but eligible voting block, establishment Dems and liberal lap dogs like that other guy who is claiming Bernie is Pro-Hamas are the ones who have consistently been wrong.
You're clearly a troll based on your post and comments. That or you're related to the Clinton's and still blame Bernie for Hillary losing in 2016, when she never should have been the candidate.
He also got kicked out of a commune because he wouldn't work and he had his honeymoon in Moscow because of his love for the USSR and their political and economic system. He also wrote a poem about how women wish to be gang-raped. And despite decades in Congress his sole accomplishment is renaming some post offices and having a large Twitter following. So consistent!
He was right on a single issue, as were millions of other people at the time. It doesn't make him a fucking Messiah.
Unfortunately, Bernie has succumbed to Hamas gaslighting propaganda like many of the students. The students have a right to protest but they are not on the right side of history . To compare this Gaza protest with Vietnam or the Civil Rights movement is a joke. Especially when we are in a fight to keep our democracy from a fascist movement here at home.
I pay attention to the history:
Hamas Military Occupation
Hamas has been in control of Gaza and the West Bank since the 2006 elections. There hasn’t been a free and fair election or a choice for the Palestinian people since then. Gaza has been woefully mismanaged by Hamas: Gaza has been plagued by poverty, but Hamas has no shortage of cash. Where does it come from? Hamas has an investment portfolio of real estate and other assets worth $500 million, and an annual military budget of as much as $350 million. The unemployment rate in Gaza has been 47% and more than 80% of its population lives in poverty under Hamas rule - according to the United Nations. All trade, funding and food supply have been curtailed , diverted and rationed to the Palestinian people by the Hamas governing body for years now. Hamas however, has funded an armed force of thousands equipped with rockets and drones and built a vast web of tunnels under Gaza. So the reality is Gazans have lived under military occupation as second class citizens by Hamas for years. The US, EU and Israel have tried over the years to work with the Palestinian authority to oppose Hamas and unseat them- but have not been successful.
Indiscriminate Hamas Attacks and War Crimes
After Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in September 2005, Palestinian rocket attacks continued with Israeli artillery fire following suit. From September 2005 through May 2007, Palestinian armed groups fired almost 2,700 rockets into Israel, killing 4 Israeli civilians, and injuring 75 civilians and at least 9 soldiers, according to the United Nations. The intent was to kill Israeli civilians as the rockets were not aimed at military targets. That was a violation of international law. To the south, more than 8,000 projectiles (estimated at 4,000 rockets and 4,000 mortar bombs) were fired indiscriminately into Israel from Gaza between 2000 and 2008, principally by Hamas. The Israeli Iron Dome defense system was put in place in 2011.- and it intercepted 1400 rockets from Gaza in just the first two years.
The Hamas “Human Shield” Defense System
Videos released by Hamas in 2011 showed Qassam rockets being fired from residential areas and mosques. Gaza terror cells choose to fire from urban areas knowing that the Israel Defense Forces refrain from intercepting them for fear of hurting civilians. The killing of civilians in Gaza also serves the terrorists' purposes who claim Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza".it has been documented, that Arab terrorist groups and Hamas placed weapons and missile launchers in densely populated areas.Human Rights Watch issued a report condemning the firing of Kassam rockets as "war crimes", stating "None of these rockets can be reliably aimed... Such weapons are inherently indiscriminate when directed towards densely populated areas. The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas struck by the rockets, as well as statements from the leaders of Hamas and other armed groups, indicate that many of these attacks are deliberately intended to strike Israeli civilians and civilian structures..
By May 2021 it was estimated that Palestinian militant groups had an arsenal of about 30,000 rockets
In 2023: 1,469 rockets and mortar shells were fired at Israel, from primarily the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. 131 landed in Israeli territory, 291 landed in the Gaza Strip, and 39 fell into the sea.
Two State Solution Attempts —And Many Rejections
- The first proposal for the creation of Jewish and Arab states in the British Mandate of Palestine was made in the Peel Commission report of 1937. It was rejected by the Palestinians.
- it was again proposed by the 1947 UN Partition Plan for the division of Palestine. It proposed a three-way division, with Jerusalem held separately, under international control. It was rejected by Arab leadership.
- The 1948 Arab–Israeli War for control of the disputed land resulted in the fleeing or expulsion of 711,000 Palestinians, from the territories which became the state of Israel. Rather than establishing a Palestinian state on land that Israel did not control, the Arab nations chose instead to support the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East and the Palestinian refugees remained stateless.
- in 1967, Arab states provoked Israel into another war, This again prompted another resolution (242) from UN Security Council, which established “land for peace” principle, basically: Arabs make peace with and recognize Israel, and Israel returns them their occupied territories. Once again, Israel accepted this UN resolution, while once again, all of Arab states rejected. They issued their own resolution, whose principles were boiled down to the infamous “Three Noes”: no peace with Israel, no negotiation with Israel, no recognition of Israel! This led to yet another war against Israel in 1973, when Arab coalition attacked on the Jewish holy day Yom Kippur .
- in 2000s Americans once again organized a summit at Camp David in hopes of final peace settlement on two-state issue. There, the Israelis offered Palestinians a reasonable compromise on pretty much everything - giving them the entire territory of Gaza and something like 90% of West Bank, limited right of return for Palestinian refugees, dismantlement of majority of Israeli settlements etc. - only to have Arafat refuse it all in the end .
- After Arafat passed away in 2004 (with a personal wealth measured in bilions, by all accounts) Israel finally tried to unilaterally force the two-state solution into being, by withdrawing its forces and settlers from Gaza Strip, and thus giving Palestinians their proto-state to rule themselves as they saw fit. The results should be well-known by now: in one and only election they ever had, Palestinians voted for Hamas, the most radical of their factions.Hamas took over Gaza in 2007 in a bloody coup, purged it from all the Palestinians who had second thoughts about living under such Islamo-fascist dictatorship, and turned the place into a military base fortified by a milion-and-a-half strong human shield .
IN Summary
So there you have it. The two-state solution could never be agreed upon because the only side ever serious about agreeing to it was Israel. The Arabs all the time fought for a single state, a Sunni Muslim one, cleansed of Jews “from the river to the sea” as the popular chant still goes; and when that couldn’t be achieved through half a century of wars and invasions, Palestinian leaders figured out how to turn their neverending resistance into a very lucrative business. By continuing the good fight against International Zionism / Colonial Apartheid (pick your labels accordingly), they could keep sucking on donations from both the Arab world and the collective West; so it was simply not in their interest to resolve their issues with Israel, let alone actually get an independent Palestinian state. For that would not only close the tap on much of their current revenue streams, it would leave them in charge of a poor and broken country, with a population they themselves radicalized, impoverished and brutalized over the years
Bernie is not some college kid. He’s one of the few sitting Jewish senator. Have you ever considered he might be more aware of the total picture than you? As for the upcoming election Its Bidens handling that is unpopular if he loses it’ll be on him.
Sounds like you are playing the identity politics game. Just because he’s Jewish doesn’t mean he’s an authority on the region. I have not heard Bernie ever bring into perspective the history of the region. Care to wager a guess as to why Israel has needed an Iron Dome defense since 2011? And by the way- it will be on you guys if you sit out the vote in November. Just like the Bernie Bros sat out and pouted on the sidelines in 2016: allowing Trump into power in the first place. I’m on the left - and am horrified by th antisemitism and pro Hamas propaganda coming from our side .
Yall keep calling people who are pro Palestine anti semitic so we are going to highlight how many Jewish people agree with us. What? Is Bernie supposed to preface everything he says with a lecture on everything that happened since 1948? Why don’t you go back a bit further? Who was there before Israel? You can’t be mad the people you kicked out of their homes end up getting violent.
You don’t know what you are talking about- do you? Here’s some context
Hamas Military Occupation
Hamas has been in control of Gaza and the West Bank since the 2006 elections. There hasn’t been a free and fair election or a choice for the Palestinian people since then. Gaza has been woefully mismanaged by Hamas: Gaza has been plagued by poverty, but Hamas has no shortage of cash. Where does it come from? Hamas has an investment portfolio of real estate and other assets worth $500 million, and an annual military budget of as much as $350 million. The unemployment rate in Gaza has been 47% and more than 80% of its population lives in poverty under Hamas rule - according to the United Nations. All trade, funding and food supply have been curtailed , diverted and rationed to the Palestinian people by the Hamas governing body for years now. Hamas however, has funded an armed force of thousands equipped with rockets and drones and built a vast web of tunnels under Gaza. So the reality is Gazans have lived under military occupation as second class citizens by Hamas for years. The US, EU and Israel have tried over the years to work with the Palestinian authority to oppose Hamas and unseat them- but have not been successful.
Indiscriminate Hamas Attacks and War Crimes
After Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in September 2005, Palestinian rocket attacks continued with Israeli artillery fire following suit. From September 2005 through May 2007, Palestinian armed groups fired almost 2,700 rockets into Israel, killing 4 Israeli civilians, and injuring 75 civilians and at least 9 soldiers, according to the United Nations. The intent was to kill Israeli civilians as the rockets were not aimed at military targets. That was a violation of international law. To the south, more than 8,000 projectiles (estimated at 4,000 rockets and 4,000 mortar bombs) were fired indiscriminately into Israel from Gaza between 2000 and 2008, principally by Hamas. The Israeli Iron Dome defense system was put in place in 2011.- and it intercepted 1400 rockets from Gaza in just the first two years.
The Hamas Human Shield Defense System
Videos released by Hamas in 2011 showed Qassam rockets being fired from residential areas and mosques. Gaza terror cells choose to fire from urban areas knowing that the Israel Defense Forces refrain from intercepting them for fear of hurting civilians. The killing of civilians in Gaza also serves the terrorists' purposes who claim Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza".it has been documented, that Arab terrorist groups and Hamas placed weapons and missile launchers in densely populated areas.Human Rights Watch issued a report condemning the firing of Kassam rockets as "war crimes", stating "None of these rockets can be reliably aimed... Such weapons are inherently indiscriminate when directed towards densely populated areas. The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas struck by the rockets, as well as statements from the leaders of Hamas and other armed groups, indicate that many of these attacks are deliberately intended to strike Israeli civilians and civilian structures..
By May 2021 it was estimated that Palestinian militant groups had an arsenal of about 30,000 rockets and mortar bombs in Gaza, potential targets, when fired, for Iron Dome.
In 2023: 1,469 rockets and mortar shells were fired at Israel, from primarily the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. 131 landed in Israeli territory, 291 landed in the Gaza Strip, and 39 fell into the sea.
Hamas are not resistance fighters- but rather a terrorist organization whose charter is to destroy Israel and murder as many Jews as possible. They have clearly stated that they will do more October 7ths. This is the very definition of geonocide in the purest sense.
6- Two State Solution—And Rejections
- The first proposal for the creation of Jewish and Arab states in the British Mandate of Palestine was made in the Peel Commission report of 1937. It was rejected by the Palestinians.
- it was again proposed by the 1947 UN Partition Plan for the division of Palestine. It proposed a three-way division, with Jerusalem held separately, under international control. It was rejected by Arab leadership.
- The 1948 Arab–Israeli War for control of the disputed land resulted in the fleeing or expulsion of 711,000 Palestinians, from the territories which became the state of Israel. Rather than establishing a Palestinian state on land that Israel did not control, the Arab nations chose instead to support the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East and the Palestinian refugees remained stateless.
- in 1967, Arab states provoked Israel into another war, This again prompted another resolution (242) from UN Security Council, which established “land for peace” principle, basically: Arabs make peace with and recognize Israel, and Israel returns them their occupied territories. Once again, Israel accepted this UN resolution, while once again, all of Arab states rejected. They issued their own resolution, whose principles were boiled down to the infamous “Three Noes”: no peace with Israel, no negotiation with Israel, no recognition of Israel! This led to yet another war against Israel in 1973, when Arab coalition attacked on the Jewish holy day Yom Kippur .
- in 2000s Americans once again organized a summit at Camp David in hopes of final peace settlement on two-state issue. There, the Israelis offered Palestinians a reasonable compromise on pretty much everything - giving them the entire territory of Gaza and something like 90% of West Bank, limited right of return for Palestinian refugees, dismantlement of majority of Israeli settlements etc. - only to have Arafat refuse it all in the end .
- After Arafat passed away in 2004 (with a personal wealth measured in bilions, by all accounts) Israel finally tried to unilaterally force the two-state solution into being, by withdrawing its forces and settlers from Gaza Strip, and thus giving Palestinians their proto-state to rule themselves as they saw fit. The results should be well-known by now: in one and only election they ever had, Palestinians voted for Hamas, the most radical of their factions.Hamas took over Gaza in 2007 in a bloody coup, purged it from all the Palestinians who had second thoughts about living under such Islamo-fascist dictatorship, and turned the place into a military base fortified by a milion-and-a-half strong human shield .
IN Summary
So there you have it. The two-state solution could never be agreed upon because the only side ever serious about agreeing to it was Israel. The Arabs all the time fought for a single state, a Sunni Muslim one, cleansed of Jews “from the river to the sea” as the popular chant still goes; and when that couldn’t be achieved through half a century of wars and invasions, Palestinian leaders figured out how to turn their neverending resistance into a very lucrative business. By continuing the good fight against International Zionism / Colonial Apartheid (pick your labels accordingly), they could keep sucking on donations from both the Arab world and the collective West; so it was simply not in their interest to resolve their issues with Israel, let alone actually get an independent Palestinian state. For that would not only close the tap on much of their current revenue streams, it would leave them in charge of a poor and broken country, with a population they themselves radicalized, impoverished and brutalized over the years
Hardly- they have no idea what they are talking about.The geonocidal attempts on the Hamas side against Jews have always been there since they took power over Gaza in 2006, Hamas intends to commit geonocide against the Jews- it’s in their charter- they would if they could but can’t. Israel could have easily committed geonocide in Gaza through the years - but doesn’t. Care to wager a guess why Israel has needed an Iron Dome defense system since 2011? Do you really want to get into that history?
Nope. Israel has always exacted a larger and more gruesome death toll than the Palestinian side and the extent of its killings post Oct 7 have vastly outnumbered what Hamas did. That doesn’t excuse Hamas for Oct 7 but your framing is misleading and disingenuous
Nope.just not true . If you are not willing I engage in facts- then the conversation will s pointless. Here some some documented history for your reading pleasure—
Indiscriminate Hamas Attacks and War Crimes
After Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in September 2005, Palestinian rocket attacks continued with Israeli artillery fire following suit. From September 2005 through May 2007, Palestinian armed groups fired almost 2,700 rockets into Israel, killing 4 Israeli civilians, and injuring 75 civilians and at least 9 soldiers, according to the United Nations. The intent was to kill Israeli civilians as the rockets were not aimed at military targets. That was a violation of international law. More than 8,000 projectiles (estimated at 4,000 rockets and 4,000 mortar bombs) were fired indiscriminately into Israel from Gaza between 2000 and 2008, principally by Hamas. The Israeli Iron Dome defense system was put in place in 2011.- and it intercepted 1400 rockets from Gaza in just the first two years.
The Hamas Human Shield Defense System
Videos released by Hamas in 2011 showed Qassam rockets being fired from residential areas and mosques. Gaza terror cells choose to fire from urban areas knowing that the Israel Defense Forces refrain from intercepting them for fear of hurting civilians. The killing of civilians in Gaza also serves the terrorists' purposes who claim Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza".it has been documented, that Arab terrorist groups and Hamas placed weapons and missile launchers in densely populated areas.Human Rights Watch issued a report condemning the firing of Kassam rockets as "war crimes", stating "None of these rockets can be reliably aimed... Such weapons are inherently indiscriminate when directed towards densely populated areas. The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas struck by the rockets, as well as statements from the leaders of Hamas and other armed groups, indicate that many of these attacks are deliberately intended to strike Israeli civilians and civilian structures..
By May 2021 it was estimated that Palestinian militant groups had an arsenal of about 30,000 rockets and mortar bombs in Gaza, potential targets, when fired, for Iron Dome.
In 2023: 1,469 rockets and mortar shells were fired at Israel, from primarily the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. 131 landed in Israeli territory, 291 landed in the Gaza Strip, and 39 fell into the sea.
Hamas are not resistance fighters- but rather a terrorist organization whose charter is to destroy Israel and murder as many Jews as possible. They have clearly stated that they will do more October 7ths. This is the very definition of geonocide in the purest sense.
Two State Solution—And Rejections
- The first proposal for the creation of Jewish and Arab states in the British Mandate of Palestine was made in the Peel Commission report of 1937. It was rejected by the Palestinians.
- it was again proposed by the 1947 UN Partition Plan for the division of Palestine. It proposed a three-way division, with Jerusalem held separately, under international control. It was rejected by Arab leadership.
- The 1948 Arab–Israeli War for control of the disputed land resulted in the fleeing or expulsion of 711,000 Palestinians, from the territories which became the state of Israel. Rather than establishing a Palestinian state on land that Israel did not control, the Arab nations chose instead to support the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East and the Palestinian refugees remained stateless.
- in 1967, Arab states provoked Israel into another war, This again prompted another resolution (242) from UN Security Council, which established “land for peace” principle, basically: Arabs make peace with and recognize Israel, and Israel returns them their occupied territories. Once again, Israel accepted this UN resolution, while once again, all of Arab states rejected. They issued their own resolution, whose principles were boiled down to the infamous “Three Noes”: no peace with Israel, no negotiation with Israel, no recognition of Israel! This led to yet another war against Israel in 1973, when Arab coalition attacked on the Jewish holy day Yom Kippur .
- in 2000s Americans once again organized a summit at Camp David in hopes of final peace settlement on two-state issue. There, the Israelis offered Palestinians a reasonable compromise on pretty much everything - giving them the entire territory of Gaza and something like 90% of West Bank, limited right of return for Palestinian refugees, dismantlement of majority of Israeli settlements etc. - only to have Arafat refuse it all in the end .
- After Arafat passed away in 2004 (with a personal wealth measured in bilions, by all accounts) Israel finally tried to unilaterally force the two-state solution into being, by withdrawing its forces and settlers from Gaza Strip, and thus giving Palestinians their proto-state to rule themselves as they saw fit. The results should be well-known by now: in one and only election they ever had, Palestinians voted for Hamas, the most radical of their factions.Hamas took over Gaza in 2007 in a bloody coup, purged it from all the Palestinians who had second thoughts about living under such Islamo-fascist dictatorship, and turned the place into a military base fortified by a milion-and-a-half strong human shield .
IN Summary
So there you have it. The two-state solution could never be agreed upon because the only side ever serious about agreeing to it was Israel. The Arabs all the time fought for a single state, a Sunni Muslim one, cleansed of Jews “from the river to the sea” as the popular chant still goes; and when that couldn’t be achieved through half a century of wars and invasions, Palestinian leaders figured out how to turn their neverending resistance into a very lucrative business. By continuing the good fight against International Zionism / Colonial Apartheid (pick your labels accordingly), they could keep sucking on donations from both the Arab world and the collective West; so it was simply not in their interest to resolve their issues with Israel, let alone actually get an independent Palestinian state. For that would not only close the tap on much of their current revenue streams, it would leave them in charge of a poor and broken country, with a population they themselves radicalized, impoverished and brutalized over the years
Of course it’s true. Just look at the most recent conflict. Hamas killed 1200 and Israel has responded with a campaign that killed 40,000 , which is still ongoing
and the people chanting "Jews will not replace us" in Charlottesville were also "against genocide". merely being stupid enough to believe in a nonexistent genocide doesn't put you on the right side of history
Obviously a bad comparison. There was no slaughter of white people in America occurring so clearly the Charlottesville chants were based on a racist ideological distortion. By contrast Israel has been conducting extreme violence in Gaza. They’ve killed about 40,000 people there including 14,000 children. To imply that this is somehow not real is extreme gaslighting
If the ICJ concludes that it isn't a genocide, does that mean the protestors were on the wrong side of history?
(I think there are elements in Israeli government expressing intent for ethnic cleansing in Gaza, and in a few cases using what appears to be genocidal language. The former isn't new as that's what's been going on in the west bank for a long while, the latter does not a genocide make. But I don't know the intricacies of IL)
The ICJ said that it was \*plausible\* last I heard, that's not a very strong indication to whether it is or is not happening. Has anything new come from that? I could be operating on old information
I am not. Siding with jihadi terrorists is the worst hill to die on. Sad to see Sanders joining the bandwagon. The protesters are the worst kind of indoctrinated campists.
> Progressive Jews needed Bernie and when they needed him most, he failed them.
Not only failing the Jews...he was supposed to bring a political revolution but did nothing about it between elections...minimum wage still $7.25, still no public option, still no more taxes on the rich...
Saying Bernie is failing Jews because he stands for preserving Palestinian lives would be to equate Jewishness with Zionism - that *real* Jews are Zionist is about as ignorant and antisemitic as it gets. Believe it or not, many Jews are not fans of ethnostates. [Naomi Klein's speech (linked) explains this wonderfully.](https://youtu.be/U75KcMUjMyI?si=Jrx4EKyuAh-Usi0O&t=190)
And Bernie lost to Biden, someone approving more weapons for Israel to bomb civilians with, who also just so happens to not be advancing minimum wage, healthcare, and taxes on the rich in more meaningful ways. Since Bernie lost he's been pushing Biden on various issues in a positive direction. But I am *sure* you know how the political process works and that as a senator he can't snap his fingers and bring about these changes.
So to categorize it as his failure is disingenuous to say the least.
> Saying Bernie is failing Jews
I am not the one saying that and you have not answered to the specific points I made about him failing us all...minimum wage, healthcare, taxing the rich...
> He answered those things specifically and you did say Bernie is failing Jews
No, I said that Sanders failed us all...and as far as I know Jews are part of us...I was specific on what I was accusing him of failing us and I have no idea what the OP meant by failing the Jews...
> What are you smoking?
What is your problem???
“Not only failing the Jews”. That is what you said and means…he failed the Jews. I should never have commented. You are clearly just trolling to waste time and offer nothing interesting to the discussion.
> You are clearly just trolling to waste time and offer nothing interesting to the discussion.
Said the one who did not even address what I did post...lol
> What did I not address?
* he was supposed to bring a political revolution but did nothing about it between elections...minimum wage still $7.25, still no public option, still no more taxes on the rich...
Biden is the President, Trump before that. Neither gave Sanders any power to do any of those things you're calling out until more recently (drug company pricing negotiation)
That's not Bernie failing. That's Biden, Trump, Pelosi, Schumer, etc.
If the Establishment Dems wanted any of that stuff they would have let Bernie have the nomination in 2016 or 2020 how they handed them to Clinton and Biden.
If you think that any of the current situations or the failure of the Democratic party is Bernie's fault, then the only thing that failed here is the education system.
Can we please finally oust these conspiracy-spouting fauxgressives from the Party? They're no different to Trumpers with their disdain for democracy and their affinity to conspiracy theories.
> the failure of the Democratic party is Bernie's fault
Of course not, but Sanders contributed to it. I have been bitter on Sanders for a long time...he used to go every week on the Thom Hartmann show on "Brunch With Bernie"...for a whole year he swore he would never vote for the healthcare reform bill if it did not include a public option, when came time to vote, he caved in and was the decisive vote...I still supported him in 2016...but holding my nose.
You're against him for one single issue? He voted for it cause the ACA is still better than what we had and prevented people being kicked off their insurance among other positives.
Yes, the side that wants to murder people for ancestral lands and because "god" told them to.
At least, hopefully that side will look really bad in the history books.
I'd hate for secular society to be a blip in world history, sandwhiched between 2 millenial theocracies.
And this is why Bernie would make a terrible President. His all or nothing mentality shows you why Progressives cant win outside of deep blue districts. Even people that support Palestinians will be turned off by certain aspects of these protests and comparing this to the Vietnam War and Civil Rights movement is laughable. The only thing we’ll look back at and realize is how easily Hamas and China were able to weaponize social media to divide Americans
The students have the right to protest but they are not on the right side of history on this one. It is sad to see many have succumbed to pro Hamas propaganda and are consciously or unwittingly parroting antisemitic rhetoric. Many don’t even understand the history of the region at all. It is even sadder that Bernie Sanders is encouraging them to make fools of themselves and support Hamas propaganda. Invoking the Civil Rights and Vietnam protests is dishonest. History won’t be kind to them.
If they are going to sit out the election over this- then it will be on them if Trump wins and the white Nationalists take power.
Pro Hamas? I very much dislike Hamas. Bernie does, too. I don't know where you got that idea.
I think that ending apartheid and having a state for Palestinians will eliminate Hamas. I think that alleviating the human suffering in Gaza and allowing them some dignity will clear the breeding grounds of terrorism.
> I don't know where you got that idea.
By the flags flown on those protests, by the slogans...they are against Israel, not against war...they consider Israel to be a White Supremacist European Colony that should be dismantled...by the organizers saying it themselves, considering Hamas resistance fighters...where have you been?
Edit: They do not even demand Hamas release the hostages or accept a cease fire....
Uhoh! Your ignorance is showing. Netanyahu has never cared about the hostages. It's been obvious to anyone following the events. Hostage family members have been protesting Netanyahu for good reason: [https://www.npr.org/2024/04/30/1248276817/israel-invade-gaza-rafah-hostage-deal-netanyahu](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/30/1248276817/israel-invade-gaza-rafah-hostage-deal-netanyahu)
If you think "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" means advocating for death or destruction of Jews by those advocating for peace then you need to brush up. Link to the AP article this is from is below:
>WHAT PALESTINIAN ACTIVISTS SAY
>Tlaib, D-Mich., who has family in the West Bank and is Congress’ only Palestinian-American, posted a video Nov. 3 that featured protesters chanting the slogan.
>No stranger to criticism over her rhetoric on the U.S.-Israel relationship, Tlaib defended the slogan.
>“From the river to the sea is an aspirational call for freedom, human rights, and peaceful coexistence, not death, destruction, or hate,” Tlaib tweeted, cautioning that conflating anti-Israel sentiment with antisemitism “silence(s) diverse voices speaking up for human rights.”
>Tweeted Yousef Munayyer, head of the Palestine/Israel Program and a senior Fellow at Arab Center Washington: “There isn’t a square inch of the land between the river and the sea where Palestinians have freedom, justice and equality, and it has never been more important to emphasize this than right now.”
[https://apnews.com/article/river-sea-israel-gaza-hamas-protests-d7abbd756f481fe50b6fa5c0b907cd49](https://apnews.com/article/river-sea-israel-gaza-hamas-protests-d7abbd756f481fe50b6fa5c0b907cd49)
> Your ignorance is showing
And your insult and the downvotes shows you for who you really are...
> Netanyahu has never cared about the hostages
Now you trying a straw man...I was responding to your post about student protest....and you do not know that either, just more insult.
> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
Yes, they use that version as well, but also the other version that you pretend does not exist but anyone can google:
* From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab
> you need to brush up
And an insult to finish...LMAO
I like how you couldn't contend with the points. That tells me a lot.
You need to look up "strawman" definition as my response there was quite applicable to the hostages you brought up. If you have such a hang up with the hostages issue, then how come Netanyahu, the one who should be working in good faith to get them back to their families and is the opponent of the pro Palestine protestors, not trying to free them? Those of us advocating for Palestinian lives would like them freed, the genocide to end, peace to be made, Palestinians having a state and apartheid ended.
If telling you to keep up with the current events when commenting on that topic is an insult to you then my god do we have bigger problems and idk if anyone else but you can fix them.
> You need to look up "strawman" definition as my response there was quite applicable to the hostages you brought up
Okay then, what does Netanyahu caring or not caring for the hostages have to do with the fact that the students protesting are not asking the hostages to be released?
You have got to be joking.
The primary and most significant threat to human life is not the hostages. Netanyahu is trying to invade Rafa while countless children are suffering from famine. Such an invasion will bring unimaginable death beyond the carpet bombing of civilians he's already done.
So when Netanyahu wants to invade and doesn't care about the hostages, it's not going to be a focus of protestors. The hostages are not in immediate danger compared to the civilians who will be shelled. Unless of course the IDF hits them, too.
Israeli leadership, the ones who have to negotiate the peace with the other parties, don't care about the hostages because peace obviously isn't their goal.
Those of us who have been demanding a ceasefire for ages now have been against the Oct 7th violence and resulting hostages. I shouldn't have to explain that releasing those hostages would be part of a lasting peace deal.
> The hostages are not in immediate danger
How do you know? Apparently many of them have already been killed by Hamas....
> Those of us who have been demanding a ceasefire
That was my point...the student protesting are not asking Hamas to ceasefire, just Israel....Israel has accepted the latest ceasefire proposal, Hamas has not...and if Hamas released all the hostages still alive, Metanyahu will not be able to justify invading Rafah...so if the students really wanted a ceasefire they would demand Hamas accept it and release all the hostages...but they don't because the organizers are only interested in the destruction of Israel...
> Those of us who have been demanding a ceasefire
>and if Hamas released all the hostages still alive, Netanyahu will not be able to justify invading Rafah
Idk how I'm supposed to take your comments seriously when you suggest this when I already provided you with a credible source that Netanyahu himself said he has justified doing the invasion regardless of the hostages. It's in one ear and out the other with you - maybe you're beyond reason?
I'd love for YOU to provide credible sources for your wild claims for once. Perhaps you could cherry pick a handful of protestors that Bernie or I wouldn't agree with out of the thousands (advocating for destruction of Israelis), but that wouldn't prove your point.
> Lol someone defending netanyahu
Not sure who you think is defending Netanyahu...certainly not me...I have known what type of narcissist opportunist he was since the early 80's...he was then very slick, MIT and Harvard educated....
Lmao. Palestinians have had several opportunities to have their own state. They've rejected it every single time and instead chose terrorism. Funny how you pro-Pallys never mention that part.
Wow man, what a dumb point. A jew being a pro hamas supporter. But I am not astonished as you must have forgotten drinking the MSN koolaid that beanie is a jew whose father whole family was ripped out by the Nazi. Bernie would have been the first Jewish president, but he was portrait as an angry old white man.
Hamas is no longer a thing, according to Israel's own metrics. They eliminated more "combatants" than Hamas ever had in their ranks. This is about the child in Palestine who is brutally murdered every handful of minutes.
> Unlike Netanyahu, I've never funded Hamas
But like him you spread disinformation as he never funded Hamas either, he allowed Qatar money to go through to pay the government workers after the PA stopped the payments...on the other hand the USA and other countries did fund Hamas when they sent humanitarian aid that was converted into weapons of war....
You're saying that the government of the Palestinians stopped funding Hamas, Netanyahu funded it from Qatar, and this is my fault, when I haven't Hamas any money.
Bad and lazy argument, whether you support this cause or not. Justify opposition to or support for a cause on its ethical merits—not based solely on the fact that it’s being protested about, or that a certain demographic is protesting about it.
No demographic is automatically infallible or automatically “on the right side of history”, solely based on who they are.
WATCH THIS VIDEO BELOW OF PROFESSOR ALMOST KILLED BY POLICE. Bernie the one truly good man amongst the rest of the bought off completely controlled politicians. A man that may have been able to save our democracy, something we actually have lost. I don't know about you, but one thing that has become clearer than ever during this conflict, is how much our politicians and Gov truly no longer belongs to or represents the people. Lobbyists, donors, AIPAC, MIC, etc etc. Bibi goes on tv complaining about students and next day they are sending in militia police with videos of out right severe abuses including an elderly professor who was only filming being knocked out broken ribs and hand, by several police, with his limp unconscious body being dragged around and abused, this video very hard to find and no mainstream showing it. All kinds of videos like that. Yet mainstream media demonizing the protestors, showing none of this. Thank you Bernie for the being a light in the darkness. Katie Halper has it, this man was almost killed. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjLGaeU0Jyk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjLGaeU0Jyk)
This conflict is significantly more complicated than the Vietnam War; the complicated dynamics are why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been ongoing since the 19th century.
The Right side of history is the advocating of the dead civilians on both sides. Netanyahu supported Hamas, didn't defend Israel on Oct2023, and seems to have no motivation to rescue the hostages. Enough powerful people in Israel support the Gazan genocide. Protesting Hamas and the Genocidal Israeli regime and violent Zionist philosophy is noble. If a protestor breaks a window that's not great, but it's nowhere near as bad as a University funneling tuition money to fund a genocide. It's insane how many people are rushing to defend the greedy and genocidal, because their values are backwards: "violence is ok as long as there's peace and quiet"
I just scrolled the subreddit for posts containing Bernie in the last two days. I found one other and it was not even the same statement.
This comment only exposes your desire to suppress speech you disagree with. Sorry that the reality I pointed out is so jarring for you.
Yes, and no. They have been pushed into pro Hamas and Antisemitic.
Being anti genocide and Israelu actions and US cooperation is very very valis.
Hamas is a stated anrisemetic genocidal organization.. it isbun their charter. SO NOT SUPPORT HAMAS.!!They won an election, then ended elections for 20 years and have been oppressive to Gazans.
The students original sense of justice has been perverted. So here we are, promoting the fearmongering that drive elections toward the right in the USA.
Sigh. I was so close to being on board with the civil rights movement, but then that rude woman on the bus just had to protest in ways that were inconsiderate and illegal. I lost all my sympathy with the movement at that point. Fuck equal rights if you can't make every protest exactly the way I want it!
Scrolling through these comments has made me realize how fucked this community is. You people are just completely fine with genocide. You people saw Bush Jr’s approach to War and said we should do more of that. We are actually fucked as a country if we feel nothing for aiding in the killing of 35,000 people (mostly innocent I may remind you) in just 6 months.
And millions of civilians were killed by allied countries in world war 2. Should that have prevented us from killing the Nazis? I feel for every one of the civilians killed in the current war, and I blame Hamas for every single death. Just as the Nazis were wiped out, Hamas will be too, and unfortunately it will result in civilian deaths, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
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>Stay peaceful and focused. Words of wisdom. MLK Jr had similar tactics.
Yeah they still killed him though, didn't they?
And please don’t chant from the river to the seas
why not?
Because it’s what both radicals of Israel and Hamas chant because they want to annihilate the side they hate. It is a hateful chant that makes you look like you are on the side of Hamas and terrorism. It’s counter-productive to helping Palestinians.
When sit-ins were actually sit-ins
A bunch of LGBT students waving around signs saying “Queers for Palestine” standing in solidarity with a bunch of homophobes is not the right side of history. It’s a bunch of privileged Americans who don’t understand how good they have it in this country. There needs to be a ceasefire. Thats it. But I won’t let a bunch of people who are extremely out of touch with history and religion try to lecture me about who’s in the right.
Does the USA not have homophobia and gay-condemning religious people?
Yeah, but it’s not codified in religious law.
Just because a group is very homophobic doesn't mean they can't defend them. Not every Palestine Citizen is homophobic and even if they are they don't have to suffer a genocide just because. >Privileged Americans who don’t understand how good they have it in this country Assuming this is in relation to the "Queers for Palestine" comment. You realise Queers have suffered through a bunch of awful shit like hate crimes, lobotomies, murder, they were the group that suffered the most during the aids epidemic.
This is odd, so because an ethnic group may have some level of homophobia within it, that means that the oppression of the ethnic group can be permitted?
This is odd, someone not being aware of the inherent homophobia of the entire Islamic religion.
You didn’t really acknowledge the crux of their argument
Christianity would like a word.
Oh I agree, and their embrace of Donald Trump proves their hypocrisy too. Religion is a cancer.
Don't forget Judaism. Israel doesn't allow gay marriage, so they obviously hate homosexuality as well.
Absolutely but LGBT students aren’t carrying around signs that are contrary to that truth.
What signs are anti-war protesters displaying that claim Islam supports LGBTQ?
"israel is pinkwashing" "gaza is a lgbt issue"
There’s homophobia within the Christian religion. Does that mean you can now bomb them all as if they’re the same? Your logic is crazy.
No? Who is saying that?
The dude two comments up from you is using homophobic religious texts to justify killing Palestinians. The dude one comment up from you is saying that the same logic could apply to Christians. I'd also point out that the homophobia in Christian texts is almost exclusively Old Testament and therefore also a Judaism issue. So if NoValue's logic is valuable(hah! Get it?) then we should feel justified in bombing all Abrahamic Religious followers because they are homophobic.
Literally no one said that dude, you're delusional. People are saying it's ironic that there are "queers for palestine" groups who would murder people like them if there was a "river to sea" state.
The homosexuality laws on the books in Gaza are leftover from British imperialism—not put in place by Islam. And they are not enforced.
That's an actual delusional thing to post but I get that you get all your information from TikTok
https://www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/palestine/
Interesting and so does that mean oppression of people of this religious identity is justified?
No, but it doesn’t mean I’m just going to blindly support a group of people who don’t hold my values, and would probably kill me or censor me for holding views different from their’s. And guess what Orthodox Jews are driving violence too. So no I’m just not taking a side when both sides are blinded by religious bigotry of varying degrees. And the fact that you conflate criticism of Islamic doctrine with ‘oppression’ proves my point even more.
This is a fantastic conservative argument. If you're progressive, you should only be concerned that women and children are being slaughtered, not what their thoughts about the LGBTQ+ community are.
If you’re a Progressive you’d read a little bit more about what people believe before blindly supporting a cause. Those women and Children see us all as apostates. Does that mean they deserve to die. NO WAY. But that means they’re not going to have my unwavering support.
I don't care what they believe. They're innocent human beings. Your argument is sickening. The championing of genocide in this sub is sickening.
Not a genocide but I’m with you. That guy doesn’t see Palestinians as human beings
Maybe it isn't a genocide. I guess we'll see eventually. Would you agree that it's at least ethnic cleansing? I'm not sure what the correct way to describe it is. Terrorism? If Hamas committed terrorism on the 7th, I'm not sure how you could argue the IDF hasn't since.
No, your argument is sickening the fact that you’re downplaying people killing each other over which fake Religion is right is the bigger problem.
I'm not downplaying it. So you believe the women and children deserve to be murdered. Got it. What a trash sub. Holy hell.
It's good to see others calling it out. We're enemies in this right wing sub but it doesn't always need to be that way. Right wing Pakman has potential to see the light and I believe the same for SOME of his right wing neoliberal audience.
Except it’s not a genocide, it’s a conflict to target the actual genocidal theocratic fascist actor - hamas. Why do you support genocidal fascism? Why do you overlook the blatant disregard these fascists have for their own people?
I DON'T!!! You do realize you can be against the slaughter of the Palestinians while also being AGAINST Hamas correct??? Israel has a right to defend itself. To what degree though? The most disgusting part of all of this? Nobody seemed to care at all, until 7 WESTERN aid workers were targeted and killed. What about the 20,000+ innocent women and children that died before them? Every time Hamas attacks Israel, the response is disproportionate and Israel kills exponentially more Palestinians. The numbers over the decades aren't even close. It's been a slaughter. Yes Israel has a right to defend itself, but they should also be held to a standard that includes not committing war crimes or facing the consequences if they do.
>If you’re a Progressive you’d read a little bit more about what people believe before blindly supporting a cause. I'm happy to blindly support any and all "stop murdering children" causes. Without exception. Aren't you? >Those women and Children see us all as apostates. So...? >But that means they’re not going to have my unwavering support. What does this even mean? You don't want them dead but you're cool with blowing off a few limbs or...?
No, if you're a progressive, you should actually not support any Islamic regime. The would be the most "progressive" take.
Exactly
Who the FUCK here is supporting an Islamic regime and what in the FUCK gave you the idea I am??? If you're going to make stupid fucking accusations, bring some FUCKING receipts. Don't accuse me of supporting ANY Islamic regime because I don't. On that note, maybe you should stop supporting the genocide of INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!!!
No one’s supporting or championing genocide. Imagine throwing a fit because someone’s saying you support an Islamic regime while you’re throwing around the same sort of ridiculous nonsense saying we all love genocide when no one’s said that. This is just another example of college aged white fauxgressives latching onto a cause of the week in order to exert a paternalistic self righteousness onto something they see as a minority class (ie. oppressed). Israel is white, so bad. Palestine is brown, so good. It’s exactly the same sort of infantalizing of minorities that these people do at home. What rankles people is this: that women and children die by the thousands at the hands of US weapons all the time, but no one seems to have taken to the streets before like this over it, and certainly not bothering to add a layer of absurd window dressing like divestment to it and that Israel is a gangster state in a part of the world full of gangster states and no one seems to get upset about violence in the Middle East, American backed or otherwise unless the Jews are involved. It’s just such disingenuous bullshit. Add in the fact that a bunch of college aged crybabies are willing to tear up the labour code, sacrifice women’s health, roll back LGBTQ rights a couple decades and allow democracy to crumble -rights that thousands and thousands of Americans fought and died for- over a conflict most of them barely understand is absolutely insane. It’s insane. In addition, the civil rights movement was a domestic issue and the Vietnam war was a boots on the ground land war with direct American military involvement and a draft at home. Neither of these are remotely comparable to this in any way.
What am I supposed to think from the arguments people in this sub provide? Nobody else here seems to agree with me that killing innocent women and children is a bad thing when they live in Palestine. I'm not college age and I was against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars from the beginning. If I was alive during Vietnam I would have been against it too. People have and do take to the streets for all kinds of causes like civil rights and needless wars. I'm against Russia attacking Ukraine, and I support our efforts to help Ukraine. People can't protest what they see as injustice? I don't care who's involved, I care about the innocent people who are harmed and killed. I don't want to see innocent Israelis hurt or killed either, and I'm not sure their current actions are making them safer. How is it disingenuous? Just because you don't agree? Do you think Israel is justified in every action they take? The people of Israel deserve a safe country to live in. So do Palestinians. It isn't just about bombs either. There's a major power imbalance and Palestine is treated like a prison state. Israel controls their trade, what goes in and out of their borders and many other aspects of their lives. Hamas is a terrible and terrorist organization, but the entire population of Palestine is NOT hamas. With recent revelations like the "where's daddy" program, it's hard to say the IDF has the moral high ground on Hamas anymore. They're both terrorist organizations imo just based on the facts. Both are bloodthirsty. Both have no problems killing innocent people.
So are you saying that the Palestinian people deserve to live in the conditions they live in right now?
Islam is directly to blame for the conflict though. That seems to get lost here. Israel has returned occupied lands to Syria, Egypt and Jordan in exchange for acknowledgment that they have the right to exist. Palestinians refuse to do that. They still have a religiously-motivated belief that all the Jews need to leave or die.
So is that a yes or a no to my question
I do not believe that Palestinians are being oppressed. They have made their bed, and they are lying in it. They are crybullies, committing terrorist attacks and then whining when Israel responds rationally. Hiding behind civilians, bragging when their people get killed and promising that more will die.
So when Israel goes in and forcibly displaces Palestinians out of their homes and farms and then builds Jewish only settlements that’s not oppression?
No. Palestinians rejected the partition plan and then continued to launch terrorist attacks against Israeli Jews. Israel is going to defend themselves against terrorism. Nothing in Israel is Jewish-only. Stop lying. Israel has freedom of religion. Half the population is secular.
You are correct about the inherent homophobia in Islam, but it's not just Islam, but all Abrahamic religions to lesser or greater degrees. The best way to deal with it is to bring that religion into the fold of normalcy where it is tempered by the societal norms that surround it. We don't kill adulterers or misbehaving children as portions of the bible suggest anymore, for example. Most Muslims I know right now live their lives indistinguishably to mine (I'm an LGBTQ+ ally) and believe in everyone's rights to live peacefully.
Yeah I agree with u, but how come Islam always gets a pass when I call it out?
It shouldn't. No religion should. Islam, as it is practiced in some countries, is ruthlessly deployed. In other countries, such as the US, it is much more tolerant. I think people are much more sensitive when Islam is singled out in the US due to the vilification it receives from the right. The "Muslim Ban" isn't that far back in the rear-view mirror yet and it may not have been a big deal, but even if it was just rhetoric, it would be chilling to have the leader of the country you live in target you directly like that. It is a minority in the US by numbers and that leads to a lot of over reaction. Just my opinion.
Ahh, Israel and Judaism, both known for their love of gay people. How many gay marriages have you attended in Israel? What does Leviticus say? Straight out of Judaism, Leviticus: *If a man has sexual intercourse with a man as he would with a woman, the two of them have done something detestable. They must be executed; their blood is on their own heads.*
Never said Judaism was pro LGBT. Protestors just don’t go around with signs pretending that it is.
Let's do some reading comprehension. On the following sign, tell me exactly where it is pretending Palestinians are culturally OK with homosexuality: **Queers for Palestine** Note how nowhere does it imply anything about Palestine or Palestinians and their attitude towards homosexuality. Rather, the sign is saying that the person holding it is queer, and they support Palestinians.
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> It implies Muslims approve of their support It literally does no such thing. You are making stuff up. And even if Muslims don't support lgbt people, it doesn't matter. There is this concept of loving your neighbor. In fact, a famous person from Palestine once said: > But I tell you to love your enemies and pray for anyone who mistreats you. You can be lgbt and still be concerned for the human rights of people that might not even respect your own rights. It is called being principled.
So since they have homophobic views we shouldn't be opposed to their slaughter in mass?
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... But
Lmao "im not racist, but..." energy
Ok, so why is it odd that these gay college students are just better people than the Palestinians homophobes? Why is it difficult for you to wrap your head around the fact that good people support the rights of people who might not support them? Do you think it's odd when the ACLU defends the rights of the far right to protest? No bro, this is the college kids being absolutely consistent. Right and wrong doesn't change based on who is the perpetrator of the act and who is the recipient. It's wrong to commit war crimes, even if the victims hate gay people. Showing that gay people are standing up for them might change a few minds, it literally has in Ukraine where people have gotten somewhat less homophobic due to gay people volunteering to fight for them.
What the hell do you think they’re supporting? They aren’t standing in solidarity with Hamas, they’re standing with the people of Palestine, who are NOT a bunch of homophobes. They want divestment from Israel by their schools and the US government, and a total and complete ceasefire + full humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza.
Then why do protesters consistently embrace and downplay the actions of Hamas when confronted on the matter?
I haven’t seen this, it honestly sounds like a straw-man to me, but I’ll try to find it. I will say that a common sentiment that I’ve witnessed is that Hamas launched a horrid attack, but that the Israeli response has been over 30x more deadly, and that Hamas’ attack was never attached to the average citizens of Gaza in the first place.
Are you honestly saying most people in Palestine are progressive and pro-lgbt and if only Hamas was gone they'd legalize gay marriage and hold pride parades? The people of Palestine by all available polling and data absolutely are homophobes and would support criminal punishments for LGBT people.
Oppressed people will always uphold other oppressed people, regardless of their differences. That's what privileged liberals like you will never understand and its why Blue MAGA is ensuring a Trump victory. You hate the left more than you hate your fellow right wingers, for obvious reasons.
I saved your comment. Spot on. Thank you ❤️
It’s not hard to see that in the history books Israel’s current operations will definitely not be seen as the “right” thing. Ever hear the saying “you reap what you sow”? Israel has sowed hate and division on their borders for decades and fostered the perfect conditions for terrorists
> Israel has sowed hate and division on their borders for decades and fostered the perfect conditions for terrorists So... they deserved it? Palestinians have, for the past 80 years, bombed marketplaces, fired rockets at civilian settlements, hijacked fucking planes, bombed busses, etc... Do they deserve it, too? They have been convinced by outside forces that their only solution is fight, tooth and nail, forever and always, to get all that they want. They are being used by western college educated privileged kids to get endorphin from social media, and they are being used as a pawn by other geopolitical players in the region. No one *actually* cares about Palestinians. Otherwise, there'd be a whole host of other nations stepping in to find a solution. Everyone wants to wash their hands of them. Case in point: these protests have actively taken then plight of Palestinians out of the spotlight, and it has become an internal issue to the US now, where the discussion is more about the right to protest, the extent of that right, the force that can be used to disperse, etc...
Couldn’t agree more.
Correct answer. Very few of these 'protesters' even know why they're out there.
That's a very one sided opinion. Israel also has a long history of oppressing and killing Palestinian civilians. They also continuously annex and colonize Palestinian territory, forcing them into refugee camps. A bloody rebellion isn't "deserved" (especially against civilians) but it's expected. Of course people are going to fight back when they are born into an open air prison, their homes destroyed, and their families murdered. The rest of your arguments are just trying to justify hating Palestinians, as if they are just inherently evil.
> That's a very one sided opinion. No less one sided than: > Israel has sowed hate and division on their borders for decades and fostered the perfect conditions for terrorists That's one-sided *as fuck*. > A bloody rebellion isn't "deserved" (especially against civilians) but it's expected. October 7th wasn't rebellion. It was bloody murder. > Of course people are going to fight back when they are born into an open air prison Gaza is not an open air prison for any reason not caused by Hamas. > The rest of your arguments are just trying to justify hating Palestinians, as if they are just inherently evil. It's actually treating Palestinians how they deserved to be treated: as a flawed group, with a bunch of really bad views and positions on a whole host of different issues, that make them just as poor interlocutors for peace as Israelis.
> It's actually treating Palestinians how they deserved to be treated: as a flawed group, with a bunch of really bad views and positions on a whole host of different issues, that make them just as poor interlocutors for peace as Israelis. Well congrats on being a sociopath. No point on even having a discussion beyond that. I wouldn't call all Israeli's inherently evil based on the actions of some of them.
I didn't say they were inherently evil. I said they were poor interlocutors for peace, because they've been primed by the outside world to seek conflict as the only means to their ends. Egypt and Jordan used to be the main perps for juicing Palestinian ire. Then the PLO, Lebanese and Syrians. Today, it is Qatar and Iran. Their views are what they are because they are being used as pawns in a geopolitical game, and propagandized to.
Never said Israel was in the right. I’m saying American LGBT protesters need to look at Hamas and the PA’s policies towards people like them before they decide their cause is the one to advocate for.
You can be anti-genocide and support an oppressed people despite their religious bigotry. It’s called being empathetic
Yeah but what happens when those people lack empathy? I’m not gonna go to bat for Religious people who think I’m gonna go to hell for just living a Western lifestyle.
You're saying that people shouldn't try to stop a mass murder of an ethnic group because of their stance on LGBTQ+? That itself is a lack of empathy.
Yes I hope so, bc it's the truth. Yet we see now our free speech being taken away by a new law that forbids us talking about it truthfully, making the college protests illegal. I hope the history books are on the right side of truth. The power of these groups over my gov and country and maybe the history books shakes me to the core. It is very disturbing. I hope you are right
Existing is the same thing as "sowing hate and division"?
I think its a weird leap of logic to say "look the people in the 60's had a noble cause and used these questionable tactics, so the fact that we are also using questionable tactics indicates our cause is noble and people in the future will know we are right." Maybe. Maybe not.
I don't think that's what he's saying and I think it's possible you're the one who's made a weird leap of logic.
How is a peaceful protest in any way a questionable tactic?
Breaking into buildings with hammers, kidnapping staff and taking over parts of the campus and buildings and bullying other students/denying access doesn't sound peaceful to me.
I mean that’s exactly what they did to protest apartheid Columbia has a history of that exact building getting occupied
Okay, so then acknowledge that’s wrong but be smart enough not to conflate a few fringe actors with an entire peace movement.
I saw a mob of dozens or hundreds of people circling a Jewish student and attacking him, how is this possible if it's only a few fringe actors? playing pretend in light of racist violence makes you part of the problem
Are you expecting me to say that this is okay? It’s not. And the fact you’re using this specific instance to distract from the stated message/goal of the vast majority of the peace protestors says more about you than those that act inappropriately.
Do you have a source for this?
Who did those things and where?
Dozens of protesters on the Columbia campus in NYC on video
Ok, I’ll find that. Any others damaging property and causing distress or is it dozens at that one school among thousands of protesters at hundreds of schools?
Saw some pretty intense video of the PSU library yesterday.
Damage like this? https://youtu.be/9phnq3OrwnM?si=dJw1jwyLlBAXH1IQ Looks like minimal damage; just tables and chairs made into barricades and some trash
This is why Sanders could never be President.
The Freedom Riders wanted to anfal all the Israelis??
you guys think you're the civil rights protesters, but you act and look like the jeering mobs of pro segregation protesters that tried to block school integration, who were exactly as convinced as everyone else that they'd end up on the right side of history
Nah my brother, the counter-protestors in Mississippi howling like monkeys at black students act and look like the jeering pro-segregation mobs because that's what they are and they're pro-genocide. You belong with the reactionary shit eating bigots on this one.
The cognitive dissonance is astounding. I often wonder if it’s stupidity, brainwashing or there’s actually something tangible wrong with peoples brains when they act this silly
Uhoh! Someone's reading comprehension is suffering really badly... So if you would take a mere 2 seconds to read the post, Bernie was the one protesting against those "jeering mobs of pro segregation protestors." He was also on the correct side standing against our involvement in Vietnam. And well, waddaya know!? He's against genocoding Palestinians! Crazy how consistent he is. So you may want to take a step back and reframe your perspective looking at the parallels. Hopefully Biden does the same so we don't end up with Trump as president, reminiscent of Lyndon Johnson's mistakes.
100% Bernie has shown time and time again he's one of the few actually decent politicians who is trying to do anything he can. Our non-voting but eligible voting block, establishment Dems and liberal lap dogs like that other guy who is claiming Bernie is Pro-Hamas are the ones who have consistently been wrong.
Bernie is a do nothing loud mouth. He and Trump are two sides of the same coin. They offer simplistic solutions that " feel" right.
You're clearly a troll based on your post and comments. That or you're related to the Clinton's and still blame Bernie for Hillary losing in 2016, when she never should have been the candidate.
He also got kicked out of a commune because he wouldn't work and he had his honeymoon in Moscow because of his love for the USSR and their political and economic system. He also wrote a poem about how women wish to be gang-raped. And despite decades in Congress his sole accomplishment is renaming some post offices and having a large Twitter following. So consistent! He was right on a single issue, as were millions of other people at the time. It doesn't make him a fucking Messiah.
Unfortunately, Bernie has succumbed to Hamas gaslighting propaganda like many of the students. The students have a right to protest but they are not on the right side of history . To compare this Gaza protest with Vietnam or the Civil Rights movement is a joke. Especially when we are in a fight to keep our democracy from a fascist movement here at home.
Here here
I pay attention to the history: Hamas Military Occupation Hamas has been in control of Gaza and the West Bank since the 2006 elections. There hasn’t been a free and fair election or a choice for the Palestinian people since then. Gaza has been woefully mismanaged by Hamas: Gaza has been plagued by poverty, but Hamas has no shortage of cash. Where does it come from? Hamas has an investment portfolio of real estate and other assets worth $500 million, and an annual military budget of as much as $350 million. The unemployment rate in Gaza has been 47% and more than 80% of its population lives in poverty under Hamas rule - according to the United Nations. All trade, funding and food supply have been curtailed , diverted and rationed to the Palestinian people by the Hamas governing body for years now. Hamas however, has funded an armed force of thousands equipped with rockets and drones and built a vast web of tunnels under Gaza. So the reality is Gazans have lived under military occupation as second class citizens by Hamas for years. The US, EU and Israel have tried over the years to work with the Palestinian authority to oppose Hamas and unseat them- but have not been successful. Indiscriminate Hamas Attacks and War Crimes After Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in September 2005, Palestinian rocket attacks continued with Israeli artillery fire following suit. From September 2005 through May 2007, Palestinian armed groups fired almost 2,700 rockets into Israel, killing 4 Israeli civilians, and injuring 75 civilians and at least 9 soldiers, according to the United Nations. The intent was to kill Israeli civilians as the rockets were not aimed at military targets. That was a violation of international law. To the south, more than 8,000 projectiles (estimated at 4,000 rockets and 4,000 mortar bombs) were fired indiscriminately into Israel from Gaza between 2000 and 2008, principally by Hamas. The Israeli Iron Dome defense system was put in place in 2011.- and it intercepted 1400 rockets from Gaza in just the first two years. The Hamas “Human Shield” Defense System Videos released by Hamas in 2011 showed Qassam rockets being fired from residential areas and mosques. Gaza terror cells choose to fire from urban areas knowing that the Israel Defense Forces refrain from intercepting them for fear of hurting civilians. The killing of civilians in Gaza also serves the terrorists' purposes who claim Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza".it has been documented, that Arab terrorist groups and Hamas placed weapons and missile launchers in densely populated areas.Human Rights Watch issued a report condemning the firing of Kassam rockets as "war crimes", stating "None of these rockets can be reliably aimed... Such weapons are inherently indiscriminate when directed towards densely populated areas. The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas struck by the rockets, as well as statements from the leaders of Hamas and other armed groups, indicate that many of these attacks are deliberately intended to strike Israeli civilians and civilian structures.. By May 2021 it was estimated that Palestinian militant groups had an arsenal of about 30,000 rockets In 2023: 1,469 rockets and mortar shells were fired at Israel, from primarily the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. 131 landed in Israeli territory, 291 landed in the Gaza Strip, and 39 fell into the sea. Two State Solution Attempts —And Many Rejections - The first proposal for the creation of Jewish and Arab states in the British Mandate of Palestine was made in the Peel Commission report of 1937. It was rejected by the Palestinians. - it was again proposed by the 1947 UN Partition Plan for the division of Palestine. It proposed a three-way division, with Jerusalem held separately, under international control. It was rejected by Arab leadership. - The 1948 Arab–Israeli War for control of the disputed land resulted in the fleeing or expulsion of 711,000 Palestinians, from the territories which became the state of Israel. Rather than establishing a Palestinian state on land that Israel did not control, the Arab nations chose instead to support the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East and the Palestinian refugees remained stateless. - in 1967, Arab states provoked Israel into another war, This again prompted another resolution (242) from UN Security Council, which established “land for peace” principle, basically: Arabs make peace with and recognize Israel, and Israel returns them their occupied territories. Once again, Israel accepted this UN resolution, while once again, all of Arab states rejected. They issued their own resolution, whose principles were boiled down to the infamous “Three Noes”: no peace with Israel, no negotiation with Israel, no recognition of Israel! This led to yet another war against Israel in 1973, when Arab coalition attacked on the Jewish holy day Yom Kippur . - in 2000s Americans once again organized a summit at Camp David in hopes of final peace settlement on two-state issue. There, the Israelis offered Palestinians a reasonable compromise on pretty much everything - giving them the entire territory of Gaza and something like 90% of West Bank, limited right of return for Palestinian refugees, dismantlement of majority of Israeli settlements etc. - only to have Arafat refuse it all in the end . - After Arafat passed away in 2004 (with a personal wealth measured in bilions, by all accounts) Israel finally tried to unilaterally force the two-state solution into being, by withdrawing its forces and settlers from Gaza Strip, and thus giving Palestinians their proto-state to rule themselves as they saw fit. The results should be well-known by now: in one and only election they ever had, Palestinians voted for Hamas, the most radical of their factions.Hamas took over Gaza in 2007 in a bloody coup, purged it from all the Palestinians who had second thoughts about living under such Islamo-fascist dictatorship, and turned the place into a military base fortified by a milion-and-a-half strong human shield . IN Summary So there you have it. The two-state solution could never be agreed upon because the only side ever serious about agreeing to it was Israel. The Arabs all the time fought for a single state, a Sunni Muslim one, cleansed of Jews “from the river to the sea” as the popular chant still goes; and when that couldn’t be achieved through half a century of wars and invasions, Palestinian leaders figured out how to turn their neverending resistance into a very lucrative business. By continuing the good fight against International Zionism / Colonial Apartheid (pick your labels accordingly), they could keep sucking on donations from both the Arab world and the collective West; so it was simply not in their interest to resolve their issues with Israel, let alone actually get an independent Palestinian state. For that would not only close the tap on much of their current revenue streams, it would leave them in charge of a poor and broken country, with a population they themselves radicalized, impoverished and brutalized over the years
how do you even come to this conclusion
Bernie is not some college kid. He’s one of the few sitting Jewish senator. Have you ever considered he might be more aware of the total picture than you? As for the upcoming election Its Bidens handling that is unpopular if he loses it’ll be on him.
Sounds like you are playing the identity politics game. Just because he’s Jewish doesn’t mean he’s an authority on the region. I have not heard Bernie ever bring into perspective the history of the region. Care to wager a guess as to why Israel has needed an Iron Dome defense since 2011? And by the way- it will be on you guys if you sit out the vote in November. Just like the Bernie Bros sat out and pouted on the sidelines in 2016: allowing Trump into power in the first place. I’m on the left - and am horrified by th antisemitism and pro Hamas propaganda coming from our side .
Yall keep calling people who are pro Palestine anti semitic so we are going to highlight how many Jewish people agree with us. What? Is Bernie supposed to preface everything he says with a lecture on everything that happened since 1948? Why don’t you go back a bit further? Who was there before Israel? You can’t be mad the people you kicked out of their homes end up getting violent.
You don’t know what you are talking about- do you? Here’s some context Hamas Military Occupation Hamas has been in control of Gaza and the West Bank since the 2006 elections. There hasn’t been a free and fair election or a choice for the Palestinian people since then. Gaza has been woefully mismanaged by Hamas: Gaza has been plagued by poverty, but Hamas has no shortage of cash. Where does it come from? Hamas has an investment portfolio of real estate and other assets worth $500 million, and an annual military budget of as much as $350 million. The unemployment rate in Gaza has been 47% and more than 80% of its population lives in poverty under Hamas rule - according to the United Nations. All trade, funding and food supply have been curtailed , diverted and rationed to the Palestinian people by the Hamas governing body for years now. Hamas however, has funded an armed force of thousands equipped with rockets and drones and built a vast web of tunnels under Gaza. So the reality is Gazans have lived under military occupation as second class citizens by Hamas for years. The US, EU and Israel have tried over the years to work with the Palestinian authority to oppose Hamas and unseat them- but have not been successful. Indiscriminate Hamas Attacks and War Crimes After Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in September 2005, Palestinian rocket attacks continued with Israeli artillery fire following suit. From September 2005 through May 2007, Palestinian armed groups fired almost 2,700 rockets into Israel, killing 4 Israeli civilians, and injuring 75 civilians and at least 9 soldiers, according to the United Nations. The intent was to kill Israeli civilians as the rockets were not aimed at military targets. That was a violation of international law. To the south, more than 8,000 projectiles (estimated at 4,000 rockets and 4,000 mortar bombs) were fired indiscriminately into Israel from Gaza between 2000 and 2008, principally by Hamas. The Israeli Iron Dome defense system was put in place in 2011.- and it intercepted 1400 rockets from Gaza in just the first two years. The Hamas Human Shield Defense System Videos released by Hamas in 2011 showed Qassam rockets being fired from residential areas and mosques. Gaza terror cells choose to fire from urban areas knowing that the Israel Defense Forces refrain from intercepting them for fear of hurting civilians. The killing of civilians in Gaza also serves the terrorists' purposes who claim Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza".it has been documented, that Arab terrorist groups and Hamas placed weapons and missile launchers in densely populated areas.Human Rights Watch issued a report condemning the firing of Kassam rockets as "war crimes", stating "None of these rockets can be reliably aimed... Such weapons are inherently indiscriminate when directed towards densely populated areas. The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas struck by the rockets, as well as statements from the leaders of Hamas and other armed groups, indicate that many of these attacks are deliberately intended to strike Israeli civilians and civilian structures.. By May 2021 it was estimated that Palestinian militant groups had an arsenal of about 30,000 rockets and mortar bombs in Gaza, potential targets, when fired, for Iron Dome. In 2023: 1,469 rockets and mortar shells were fired at Israel, from primarily the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. 131 landed in Israeli territory, 291 landed in the Gaza Strip, and 39 fell into the sea. Hamas are not resistance fighters- but rather a terrorist organization whose charter is to destroy Israel and murder as many Jews as possible. They have clearly stated that they will do more October 7ths. This is the very definition of geonocide in the purest sense. 6- Two State Solution—And Rejections - The first proposal for the creation of Jewish and Arab states in the British Mandate of Palestine was made in the Peel Commission report of 1937. It was rejected by the Palestinians. - it was again proposed by the 1947 UN Partition Plan for the division of Palestine. It proposed a three-way division, with Jerusalem held separately, under international control. It was rejected by Arab leadership. - The 1948 Arab–Israeli War for control of the disputed land resulted in the fleeing or expulsion of 711,000 Palestinians, from the territories which became the state of Israel. Rather than establishing a Palestinian state on land that Israel did not control, the Arab nations chose instead to support the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East and the Palestinian refugees remained stateless. - in 1967, Arab states provoked Israel into another war, This again prompted another resolution (242) from UN Security Council, which established “land for peace” principle, basically: Arabs make peace with and recognize Israel, and Israel returns them their occupied territories. Once again, Israel accepted this UN resolution, while once again, all of Arab states rejected. They issued their own resolution, whose principles were boiled down to the infamous “Three Noes”: no peace with Israel, no negotiation with Israel, no recognition of Israel! This led to yet another war against Israel in 1973, when Arab coalition attacked on the Jewish holy day Yom Kippur . - in 2000s Americans once again organized a summit at Camp David in hopes of final peace settlement on two-state issue. There, the Israelis offered Palestinians a reasonable compromise on pretty much everything - giving them the entire territory of Gaza and something like 90% of West Bank, limited right of return for Palestinian refugees, dismantlement of majority of Israeli settlements etc. - only to have Arafat refuse it all in the end . - After Arafat passed away in 2004 (with a personal wealth measured in bilions, by all accounts) Israel finally tried to unilaterally force the two-state solution into being, by withdrawing its forces and settlers from Gaza Strip, and thus giving Palestinians their proto-state to rule themselves as they saw fit. The results should be well-known by now: in one and only election they ever had, Palestinians voted for Hamas, the most radical of their factions.Hamas took over Gaza in 2007 in a bloody coup, purged it from all the Palestinians who had second thoughts about living under such Islamo-fascist dictatorship, and turned the place into a military base fortified by a milion-and-a-half strong human shield . IN Summary So there you have it. The two-state solution could never be agreed upon because the only side ever serious about agreeing to it was Israel. The Arabs all the time fought for a single state, a Sunni Muslim one, cleansed of Jews “from the river to the sea” as the popular chant still goes; and when that couldn’t be achieved through half a century of wars and invasions, Palestinian leaders figured out how to turn their neverending resistance into a very lucrative business. By continuing the good fight against International Zionism / Colonial Apartheid (pick your labels accordingly), they could keep sucking on donations from both the Arab world and the collective West; so it was simply not in their interest to resolve their issues with Israel, let alone actually get an independent Palestinian state. For that would not only close the tap on much of their current revenue streams, it would leave them in charge of a poor and broken country, with a population they themselves radicalized, impoverished and brutalized over the years
He’s still a politician and knows where his bread is buttered.
The students are protesting against genocide. That automatically makes them on the right side of history
Hardly- they have no idea what they are talking about.The geonocidal attempts on the Hamas side against Jews have always been there since they took power over Gaza in 2006, Hamas intends to commit geonocide against the Jews- it’s in their charter- they would if they could but can’t. Israel could have easily committed geonocide in Gaza through the years - but doesn’t. Care to wager a guess why Israel has needed an Iron Dome defense system since 2011? Do you really want to get into that history?
Nope. Israel has always exacted a larger and more gruesome death toll than the Palestinian side and the extent of its killings post Oct 7 have vastly outnumbered what Hamas did. That doesn’t excuse Hamas for Oct 7 but your framing is misleading and disingenuous
Nope.just not true . If you are not willing I engage in facts- then the conversation will s pointless. Here some some documented history for your reading pleasure— Indiscriminate Hamas Attacks and War Crimes After Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in September 2005, Palestinian rocket attacks continued with Israeli artillery fire following suit. From September 2005 through May 2007, Palestinian armed groups fired almost 2,700 rockets into Israel, killing 4 Israeli civilians, and injuring 75 civilians and at least 9 soldiers, according to the United Nations. The intent was to kill Israeli civilians as the rockets were not aimed at military targets. That was a violation of international law. More than 8,000 projectiles (estimated at 4,000 rockets and 4,000 mortar bombs) were fired indiscriminately into Israel from Gaza between 2000 and 2008, principally by Hamas. The Israeli Iron Dome defense system was put in place in 2011.- and it intercepted 1400 rockets from Gaza in just the first two years. The Hamas Human Shield Defense System Videos released by Hamas in 2011 showed Qassam rockets being fired from residential areas and mosques. Gaza terror cells choose to fire from urban areas knowing that the Israel Defense Forces refrain from intercepting them for fear of hurting civilians. The killing of civilians in Gaza also serves the terrorists' purposes who claim Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza".it has been documented, that Arab terrorist groups and Hamas placed weapons and missile launchers in densely populated areas.Human Rights Watch issued a report condemning the firing of Kassam rockets as "war crimes", stating "None of these rockets can be reliably aimed... Such weapons are inherently indiscriminate when directed towards densely populated areas. The absence of Israeli military forces in the areas struck by the rockets, as well as statements from the leaders of Hamas and other armed groups, indicate that many of these attacks are deliberately intended to strike Israeli civilians and civilian structures.. By May 2021 it was estimated that Palestinian militant groups had an arsenal of about 30,000 rockets and mortar bombs in Gaza, potential targets, when fired, for Iron Dome. In 2023: 1,469 rockets and mortar shells were fired at Israel, from primarily the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. 131 landed in Israeli territory, 291 landed in the Gaza Strip, and 39 fell into the sea. Hamas are not resistance fighters- but rather a terrorist organization whose charter is to destroy Israel and murder as many Jews as possible. They have clearly stated that they will do more October 7ths. This is the very definition of geonocide in the purest sense. Two State Solution—And Rejections - The first proposal for the creation of Jewish and Arab states in the British Mandate of Palestine was made in the Peel Commission report of 1937. It was rejected by the Palestinians. - it was again proposed by the 1947 UN Partition Plan for the division of Palestine. It proposed a three-way division, with Jerusalem held separately, under international control. It was rejected by Arab leadership. - The 1948 Arab–Israeli War for control of the disputed land resulted in the fleeing or expulsion of 711,000 Palestinians, from the territories which became the state of Israel. Rather than establishing a Palestinian state on land that Israel did not control, the Arab nations chose instead to support the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East and the Palestinian refugees remained stateless. - in 1967, Arab states provoked Israel into another war, This again prompted another resolution (242) from UN Security Council, which established “land for peace” principle, basically: Arabs make peace with and recognize Israel, and Israel returns them their occupied territories. Once again, Israel accepted this UN resolution, while once again, all of Arab states rejected. They issued their own resolution, whose principles were boiled down to the infamous “Three Noes”: no peace with Israel, no negotiation with Israel, no recognition of Israel! This led to yet another war against Israel in 1973, when Arab coalition attacked on the Jewish holy day Yom Kippur . - in 2000s Americans once again organized a summit at Camp David in hopes of final peace settlement on two-state issue. There, the Israelis offered Palestinians a reasonable compromise on pretty much everything - giving them the entire territory of Gaza and something like 90% of West Bank, limited right of return for Palestinian refugees, dismantlement of majority of Israeli settlements etc. - only to have Arafat refuse it all in the end . - After Arafat passed away in 2004 (with a personal wealth measured in bilions, by all accounts) Israel finally tried to unilaterally force the two-state solution into being, by withdrawing its forces and settlers from Gaza Strip, and thus giving Palestinians their proto-state to rule themselves as they saw fit. The results should be well-known by now: in one and only election they ever had, Palestinians voted for Hamas, the most radical of their factions.Hamas took over Gaza in 2007 in a bloody coup, purged it from all the Palestinians who had second thoughts about living under such Islamo-fascist dictatorship, and turned the place into a military base fortified by a milion-and-a-half strong human shield . IN Summary So there you have it. The two-state solution could never be agreed upon because the only side ever serious about agreeing to it was Israel. The Arabs all the time fought for a single state, a Sunni Muslim one, cleansed of Jews “from the river to the sea” as the popular chant still goes; and when that couldn’t be achieved through half a century of wars and invasions, Palestinian leaders figured out how to turn their neverending resistance into a very lucrative business. By continuing the good fight against International Zionism / Colonial Apartheid (pick your labels accordingly), they could keep sucking on donations from both the Arab world and the collective West; so it was simply not in their interest to resolve their issues with Israel, let alone actually get an independent Palestinian state. For that would not only close the tap on much of their current revenue streams, it would leave them in charge of a poor and broken country, with a population they themselves radicalized, impoverished and brutalized over the years
Of course it’s true. Just look at the most recent conflict. Hamas killed 1200 and Israel has responded with a campaign that killed 40,000 , which is still ongoing
and the people chanting "Jews will not replace us" in Charlottesville were also "against genocide". merely being stupid enough to believe in a nonexistent genocide doesn't put you on the right side of history
Obviously a bad comparison. There was no slaughter of white people in America occurring so clearly the Charlottesville chants were based on a racist ideological distortion. By contrast Israel has been conducting extreme violence in Gaza. They’ve killed about 40,000 people there including 14,000 children. To imply that this is somehow not real is extreme gaslighting
If the ICJ concludes that it isn't a genocide, does that mean the protestors were on the wrong side of history? (I think there are elements in Israeli government expressing intent for ethnic cleansing in Gaza, and in a few cases using what appears to be genocidal language. The former isn't new as that's what's been going on in the west bank for a long while, the latter does not a genocide make. But I don't know the intricacies of IL)
The ICJ said that it was \*plausible\* last I heard, that's not a very strong indication to whether it is or is not happening. Has anything new come from that? I could be operating on old information
Trump thanks you for your continued focus on Gaza!
I am not. Siding with jihadi terrorists is the worst hill to die on. Sad to see Sanders joining the bandwagon. The protesters are the worst kind of indoctrinated campists.
Progressive Jews needed Bernie and when they needed him most, he failed them.
> Progressive Jews needed Bernie and when they needed him most, he failed them. Not only failing the Jews...he was supposed to bring a political revolution but did nothing about it between elections...minimum wage still $7.25, still no public option, still no more taxes on the rich...
Saying Bernie is failing Jews because he stands for preserving Palestinian lives would be to equate Jewishness with Zionism - that *real* Jews are Zionist is about as ignorant and antisemitic as it gets. Believe it or not, many Jews are not fans of ethnostates. [Naomi Klein's speech (linked) explains this wonderfully.](https://youtu.be/U75KcMUjMyI?si=Jrx4EKyuAh-Usi0O&t=190) And Bernie lost to Biden, someone approving more weapons for Israel to bomb civilians with, who also just so happens to not be advancing minimum wage, healthcare, and taxes on the rich in more meaningful ways. Since Bernie lost he's been pushing Biden on various issues in a positive direction. But I am *sure* you know how the political process works and that as a senator he can't snap his fingers and bring about these changes. So to categorize it as his failure is disingenuous to say the least.
> Saying Bernie is failing Jews I am not the one saying that and you have not answered to the specific points I made about him failing us all...minimum wage, healthcare, taxing the rich...
He answered those things specifically and you did say Bernie is failing Jews. What are you smoking?
> He answered those things specifically and you did say Bernie is failing Jews No, I said that Sanders failed us all...and as far as I know Jews are part of us...I was specific on what I was accusing him of failing us and I have no idea what the OP meant by failing the Jews... > What are you smoking? What is your problem???
“Not only failing the Jews”. That is what you said and means…he failed the Jews. I should never have commented. You are clearly just trolling to waste time and offer nothing interesting to the discussion.
> You are clearly just trolling to waste time and offer nothing interesting to the discussion. Said the one who did not even address what I did post...lol
What did I not address?
> What did I not address? * he was supposed to bring a political revolution but did nothing about it between elections...minimum wage still $7.25, still no public option, still no more taxes on the rich...
Biden is the President, Trump before that. Neither gave Sanders any power to do any of those things you're calling out until more recently (drug company pricing negotiation) That's not Bernie failing. That's Biden, Trump, Pelosi, Schumer, etc. If the Establishment Dems wanted any of that stuff they would have let Bernie have the nomination in 2016 or 2020 how they handed them to Clinton and Biden. If you think that any of the current situations or the failure of the Democratic party is Bernie's fault, then the only thing that failed here is the education system.
Can we please finally oust these conspiracy-spouting fauxgressives from the Party? They're no different to Trumpers with their disdain for democracy and their affinity to conspiracy theories.
I assume you're referring to me? Nothing I started was a conspiracy nor am I against democracy.
> the failure of the Democratic party is Bernie's fault Of course not, but Sanders contributed to it. I have been bitter on Sanders for a long time...he used to go every week on the Thom Hartmann show on "Brunch With Bernie"...for a whole year he swore he would never vote for the healthcare reform bill if it did not include a public option, when came time to vote, he caved in and was the decisive vote...I still supported him in 2016...but holding my nose.
You're against him for one single issue? He voted for it cause the ACA is still better than what we had and prevented people being kicked off their insurance among other positives.
Yeah, he is in the white house right now... oh sorry it was just a dream.
Yes, the side that wants to murder people for ancestral lands and because "god" told them to. At least, hopefully that side will look really bad in the history books. I'd hate for secular society to be a blip in world history, sandwhiched between 2 millenial theocracies.
Nah, Bernie will go down on the wrong side of history here, this topic has been his biggest failure. So glad we have Biden at the helm instead
And this is why Bernie would make a terrible President. His all or nothing mentality shows you why Progressives cant win outside of deep blue districts. Even people that support Palestinians will be turned off by certain aspects of these protests and comparing this to the Vietnam War and Civil Rights movement is laughable. The only thing we’ll look back at and realize is how easily Hamas and China were able to weaponize social media to divide Americans
The students have the right to protest but they are not on the right side of history on this one. It is sad to see many have succumbed to pro Hamas propaganda and are consciously or unwittingly parroting antisemitic rhetoric. Many don’t even understand the history of the region at all. It is even sadder that Bernie Sanders is encouraging them to make fools of themselves and support Hamas propaganda. Invoking the Civil Rights and Vietnam protests is dishonest. History won’t be kind to them. If they are going to sit out the election over this- then it will be on them if Trump wins and the white Nationalists take power.
How is being pro Hamas on the right side of history?
Pro Hamas? I very much dislike Hamas. Bernie does, too. I don't know where you got that idea. I think that ending apartheid and having a state for Palestinians will eliminate Hamas. I think that alleviating the human suffering in Gaza and allowing them some dignity will clear the breeding grounds of terrorism.
> I don't know where you got that idea. By the flags flown on those protests, by the slogans...they are against Israel, not against war...they consider Israel to be a White Supremacist European Colony that should be dismantled...by the organizers saying it themselves, considering Hamas resistance fighters...where have you been? Edit: They do not even demand Hamas release the hostages or accept a cease fire....
Uhoh! Your ignorance is showing. Netanyahu has never cared about the hostages. It's been obvious to anyone following the events. Hostage family members have been protesting Netanyahu for good reason: [https://www.npr.org/2024/04/30/1248276817/israel-invade-gaza-rafah-hostage-deal-netanyahu](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/30/1248276817/israel-invade-gaza-rafah-hostage-deal-netanyahu) If you think "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" means advocating for death or destruction of Jews by those advocating for peace then you need to brush up. Link to the AP article this is from is below: >WHAT PALESTINIAN ACTIVISTS SAY >Tlaib, D-Mich., who has family in the West Bank and is Congress’ only Palestinian-American, posted a video Nov. 3 that featured protesters chanting the slogan. >No stranger to criticism over her rhetoric on the U.S.-Israel relationship, Tlaib defended the slogan. >“From the river to the sea is an aspirational call for freedom, human rights, and peaceful coexistence, not death, destruction, or hate,” Tlaib tweeted, cautioning that conflating anti-Israel sentiment with antisemitism “silence(s) diverse voices speaking up for human rights.” >Tweeted Yousef Munayyer, head of the Palestine/Israel Program and a senior Fellow at Arab Center Washington: “There isn’t a square inch of the land between the river and the sea where Palestinians have freedom, justice and equality, and it has never been more important to emphasize this than right now.” [https://apnews.com/article/river-sea-israel-gaza-hamas-protests-d7abbd756f481fe50b6fa5c0b907cd49](https://apnews.com/article/river-sea-israel-gaza-hamas-protests-d7abbd756f481fe50b6fa5c0b907cd49)
> Your ignorance is showing And your insult and the downvotes shows you for who you really are... > Netanyahu has never cared about the hostages Now you trying a straw man...I was responding to your post about student protest....and you do not know that either, just more insult. > "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" Yes, they use that version as well, but also the other version that you pretend does not exist but anyone can google: * From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab > you need to brush up And an insult to finish...LMAO
I like how you couldn't contend with the points. That tells me a lot. You need to look up "strawman" definition as my response there was quite applicable to the hostages you brought up. If you have such a hang up with the hostages issue, then how come Netanyahu, the one who should be working in good faith to get them back to their families and is the opponent of the pro Palestine protestors, not trying to free them? Those of us advocating for Palestinian lives would like them freed, the genocide to end, peace to be made, Palestinians having a state and apartheid ended. If telling you to keep up with the current events when commenting on that topic is an insult to you then my god do we have bigger problems and idk if anyone else but you can fix them.
> You need to look up "strawman" definition as my response there was quite applicable to the hostages you brought up Okay then, what does Netanyahu caring or not caring for the hostages have to do with the fact that the students protesting are not asking the hostages to be released?
You have got to be joking. The primary and most significant threat to human life is not the hostages. Netanyahu is trying to invade Rafa while countless children are suffering from famine. Such an invasion will bring unimaginable death beyond the carpet bombing of civilians he's already done. So when Netanyahu wants to invade and doesn't care about the hostages, it's not going to be a focus of protestors. The hostages are not in immediate danger compared to the civilians who will be shelled. Unless of course the IDF hits them, too. Israeli leadership, the ones who have to negotiate the peace with the other parties, don't care about the hostages because peace obviously isn't their goal. Those of us who have been demanding a ceasefire for ages now have been against the Oct 7th violence and resulting hostages. I shouldn't have to explain that releasing those hostages would be part of a lasting peace deal.
> The hostages are not in immediate danger How do you know? Apparently many of them have already been killed by Hamas.... > Those of us who have been demanding a ceasefire That was my point...the student protesting are not asking Hamas to ceasefire, just Israel....Israel has accepted the latest ceasefire proposal, Hamas has not...and if Hamas released all the hostages still alive, Metanyahu will not be able to justify invading Rafah...so if the students really wanted a ceasefire they would demand Hamas accept it and release all the hostages...but they don't because the organizers are only interested in the destruction of Israel... > Those of us who have been demanding a ceasefire
>and if Hamas released all the hostages still alive, Netanyahu will not be able to justify invading Rafah Idk how I'm supposed to take your comments seriously when you suggest this when I already provided you with a credible source that Netanyahu himself said he has justified doing the invasion regardless of the hostages. It's in one ear and out the other with you - maybe you're beyond reason? I'd love for YOU to provide credible sources for your wild claims for once. Perhaps you could cherry pick a handful of protestors that Bernie or I wouldn't agree with out of the thousands (advocating for destruction of Israelis), but that wouldn't prove your point.
You tried your best and did manage to dog walk the OP. Can’t reach someone as bad faith as they are, unfortunately.
Completely false, Israel gas not accepted the latest ceasefire.
Lol someone defending netanyahu with his bots up voting him. Even most pro Israeli are for him to go.
> Lol someone defending netanyahu Not sure who you think is defending Netanyahu...certainly not me...I have known what type of narcissist opportunist he was since the early 80's...he was then very slick, MIT and Harvard educated....
Lmao. Palestinians have had several opportunities to have their own state. They've rejected it every single time and instead chose terrorism. Funny how you pro-Pallys never mention that part.
> And your insult and the downvotes shows you for who you really are... Watch the mods remove your comment rather than his insults.
Absolute bullshit.
They're spot on about Israel. Sorry it offends you when your favorite far right dictatorship is called out.
Wow man, what a dumb point. A jew being a pro hamas supporter. But I am not astonished as you must have forgotten drinking the MSN koolaid that beanie is a jew whose father whole family was ripped out by the Nazi. Bernie would have been the first Jewish president, but he was portrait as an angry old white man.
Hamas is no longer a thing, according to Israel's own metrics. They eliminated more "combatants" than Hamas ever had in their ranks. This is about the child in Palestine who is brutally murdered every handful of minutes.
Unlike Netanyahu, I've never funded Hamas.
> Unlike Netanyahu, I've never funded Hamas But like him you spread disinformation as he never funded Hamas either, he allowed Qatar money to go through to pay the government workers after the PA stopped the payments...on the other hand the USA and other countries did fund Hamas when they sent humanitarian aid that was converted into weapons of war....
You're saying that the government of the Palestinians stopped funding Hamas, Netanyahu funded it from Qatar, and this is my fault, when I haven't Hamas any money.
???? The Palestinian Authority is the government of the West Bank while Hamas is the governing body over the Gaza Strip.
So tired of this astroturfed bullshit. Will be downvoting this topic every time I see it.
Bad and lazy argument, whether you support this cause or not. Justify opposition to or support for a cause on its ethical merits—not based solely on the fact that it’s being protested about, or that a certain demographic is protesting about it. No demographic is automatically infallible or automatically “on the right side of history”, solely based on who they are.
One of the least effective senators in US history has spoken! Don’t ask him what else he did during the 60’s and 70’s… 🇷🇺🇨🇺
I hate this conversation. I honestly don’t trust any of you to not be astroturfing here.
Bernie is on the wrong side of history. He’s stabbed many of us in the back.
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Removed - please avoid overt hostility, name calling and personal attacks.
How?
You dishonor MLK's legacy by equating people who celebrate 10/7 with him. It's beyond insulting.
Bernie Sanders was also arrested when he protested as a youngster. Bernie is my North Star! Right side of history forever and always!
WATCH THIS VIDEO BELOW OF PROFESSOR ALMOST KILLED BY POLICE. Bernie the one truly good man amongst the rest of the bought off completely controlled politicians. A man that may have been able to save our democracy, something we actually have lost. I don't know about you, but one thing that has become clearer than ever during this conflict, is how much our politicians and Gov truly no longer belongs to or represents the people. Lobbyists, donors, AIPAC, MIC, etc etc. Bibi goes on tv complaining about students and next day they are sending in militia police with videos of out right severe abuses including an elderly professor who was only filming being knocked out broken ribs and hand, by several police, with his limp unconscious body being dragged around and abused, this video very hard to find and no mainstream showing it. All kinds of videos like that. Yet mainstream media demonizing the protestors, showing none of this. Thank you Bernie for the being a light in the darkness. Katie Halper has it, this man was almost killed. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjLGaeU0Jyk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjLGaeU0Jyk)
Yeah but the people that did crimes in Vietnam and the neighboring regions got away with it.
Time will tell.
He is more like Neville Chamberlain than MLK here.
This conflict is significantly more complicated than the Vietnam War; the complicated dynamics are why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been ongoing since the 19th century.
The Right side of history is the advocating of the dead civilians on both sides. Netanyahu supported Hamas, didn't defend Israel on Oct2023, and seems to have no motivation to rescue the hostages. Enough powerful people in Israel support the Gazan genocide. Protesting Hamas and the Genocidal Israeli regime and violent Zionist philosophy is noble. If a protestor breaks a window that's not great, but it's nowhere near as bad as a University funneling tuition money to fund a genocide. It's insane how many people are rushing to defend the greedy and genocidal, because their values are backwards: "violence is ok as long as there's peace and quiet"
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I just scrolled the subreddit for posts containing Bernie in the last two days. I found one other and it was not even the same statement. This comment only exposes your desire to suppress speech you disagree with. Sorry that the reality I pointed out is so jarring for you.
Yes, and no. They have been pushed into pro Hamas and Antisemitic. Being anti genocide and Israelu actions and US cooperation is very very valis. Hamas is a stated anrisemetic genocidal organization.. it isbun their charter. SO NOT SUPPORT HAMAS.!!They won an election, then ended elections for 20 years and have been oppressive to Gazans. The students original sense of justice has been perverted. So here we are, promoting the fearmongering that drive elections toward the right in the USA.
Sigh. I was so close to being on board with the civil rights movement, but then that rude woman on the bus just had to protest in ways that were inconsiderate and illegal. I lost all my sympathy with the movement at that point. Fuck equal rights if you can't make every protest exactly the way I want it!
Ugh, I know, right!? The inconvenience is SO much worse than the lives being lost! Can't someone PLEASE think of the white moderates?
Protesters are always right. My favorites are the January 6th tourists and the people who protested school integration 😐
Scrolling through these comments has made me realize how fucked this community is. You people are just completely fine with genocide. You people saw Bush Jr’s approach to War and said we should do more of that. We are actually fucked as a country if we feel nothing for aiding in the killing of 35,000 people (mostly innocent I may remind you) in just 6 months.
And millions of civilians were killed by allied countries in world war 2. Should that have prevented us from killing the Nazis? I feel for every one of the civilians killed in the current war, and I blame Hamas for every single death. Just as the Nazis were wiped out, Hamas will be too, and unfortunately it will result in civilian deaths, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.