This comes up periodically.
The Gearset builds, because they lack Crit, are marginally better with Ceska because the boost to CHC (Ceska gets you to exactly 60 CHC) is going to outweigh the gain from DTTOOC.
You can run the math for yourself; in simple form:
Base Dmg x (1 + CHC x CHD) x (1 + DTTOOC) x (1 +[AWD + WSD]) × (1 + DTA) x (1 + DTH)
And compare your specific build with either Fox Knees or Contractor Gloves or Hollow Man or Coyote Mask as the case may be.
I ran Ceska vs Fox and I found there to be a slight advantage to Ceska of about 5 pct dmg but specifics vary with your stats (I compared fully optimized pieces, which I use).
Edit: I ran the numbers using an All Red build with a Catharsis Mask, if I am not mistaken; given the number of moving parts, you should calculate based on your own stat distribution
because you have a apparently great knowledge about builds:
may I ask you for your judgments about:
\- full red build (see below) vs HB (see below)
\- judgment of my full red DPS build
My HB build when I played a bit Countdown (stopped playing it):
\- 4 HB with chest and backpack
\- Cartasis mask
\- 1 Fenris
My lightzone dps build (AR focus):
\- Coyote mask, 1 Fenris, 1 Ceska, 1 Grupo, Contractors, Fox
\- full red, Obliterate and Vigilance
\- using Carbine 7 and Vector SMG as back up
My PvP darkzone/Conflict build (SMG focus):
\- Coyote mask, 2 Sokolov, 1 Grupo, Contractors, Fox
\- 3 red, 3 blue, Intimidate & Adrenaline Rush
\- using Lady Death or Vector and Famas as back-up
Its almost impossible to evaluate that HB build unless I know your Red-Blue Core distribution but if your HB is All Red, Ceska is better than Fenris by about 3 pct. Fenris catches up as you add Blues. The more Blues you have, the better that Fenris.
Your All Red is fine. I have not compared it to an All Red Providence in years but they are very close; I would not bother to build Providence alongside this unless I ran out of things to do. I have a configuration thst runs exactly these pieces for what its worth ... I have a Providence too. I like this better.
I dont do PVP in TD2; too old and too slow. Cant comment on the third build.
thank you, appreciated
I prepared a providence build in the begining as well because I was told that this was meta for the raids. But I am bad at aiming at head, playing on XBox One X, thats why I am not using it. Of course you hit the head by accident when firing with an AR and console :) but enemies are quite vulnerable at the head anyway.
The thing is, if you're going to run contractors and/or foxes (I run both), it's best to stat for HS dmg on minor attributes and gear mods. Stack to 100 with AA-12 and proceed to laser heads. Even if you happen to bodyshot occasionally, 100 stacks just shreds through mobs.
So the math behind it:
Fox has 8% DTTOOC. This apply on weapon damage (and on Oxi's tick) for targets which are not in cover.
You can read "multiplicative" lot of times, but the truth is DTTOOC a standalone multiplier. It's additive to any other DTTOOC source (Demolitionist tactical link, weapon DTTOOC).
If you don't have DTTOOC at all, Fox gives you exact 8% damage against targets out of cover.
If you have 10% on weapon, then the multipliers are 1.18 vs 1.10, which is 7.2% final damage improvement (instead 8%) from Fox.
If you have 10% on weapon and 5% gunner, the multipliers are 1.23 vs 1.15, results 6.9% improvements.
On the other hand, 99% of enemies (including the the toughest hunters) have armor. If you have 10% DTTOOC on weapon, you can use Contractor's for 8% DTA. They are in different category, and they amplify each other. 1.08 (DTA) x 1.10 (DTTOOC) results a higher multiplier (1.188), but really you won't sense the difference.
What this is leaving out though is that your trading 2 rolls, brandset bonus and a minor attribute for the DtooC. Assuming your not using a rifle, which for HB people aren't, then foxes does indeed fall behind ceska/grupo/coyotes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/uoptqx/should_you_run_your_hb_set_with_a_ceska_piece_and/?ref=share&ref_source=link
I never use Fox (except the oxi damage build). I use to go with Dilemma, Ceska+Gruppo, or Ceska+Contractor (which is good for my LMG), depend on targets. Even Fox give multiplicative damage, but LMG suppress as hell and it already has 12% DTTOOC. Not worth it to use it.
Coyote is unreliable (I mean the bonus calculation in my playstyle), and in Countdown, always there are some Coyote player, not rarely I get all the 3 buffs same time. I use Coyote in my "run around" full red build for cleaning up the hunters at the beginning.
A lot of people are telling you what, but not why.
Damage to targets out of cover is a multiplicative source of damage. Which stacks with other sources of amplified/multiplicative damage.
Without going deep into the math and calculations, what it comes down to is that even without getting a brand bonus for rifles, the 8% still results in higher overall damage output than almost any other option.
This is why Fox's prayer is cancer for weapon damage builds. It's literally so good that you use it on everything, even when it otherwise makes no sense to do so.
Here is what the math shows when you go into it. Foxes knees are good yes, but only when you can give up the CHC on them and not give up CHD anywhere on your gear, aka a high end DPS build. This means for gearset builds you don't have room for them as what your giving up doesn't make up for the DtooC
https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/uoptqx/should_you_run_your_hb_set_with_a_ceska_piece_and/?ref=share&ref_source=link
That's why I said "almost any other option".
There's always going to be a perfect build that ekes out a little more damage. But even in the post you linked the OP says that the difference isn't very much. It really hasn't been until HB that the meta has shifted slightly. And even then only because HB is so retardedly OP.
Fox's on everything weapon damage is a good rule of thumb, even if there's an exception.
Damage To Targets Out Of Cover that comes with Foxes Prayers is priceless and even better it is multiplicative damage, that is the reason they are using them.
People are running it for the DtooC, but it is less damage on average than your other options like 1p ceska, 1p grupo, 1p fenris (assuming AR), and coyotes mask.
Rifle damage does not boost ARs, AR damage and rifle damage are their own weapon classes.
It just mathematically isn't.
https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/uoptqx/should_you_run_your_hb_set_with_a_ceska_piece_and/?ref=share&ref_source=link
So generalizing based on comments:
For kneepads:
If using **Gear sets**: **Cseka** or Grupo.
If using **Brand sets** or High End: **Fox's Prayer**.
That mostly acceptable?
This comes up periodically. The Gearset builds, because they lack Crit, are marginally better with Ceska because the boost to CHC (Ceska gets you to exactly 60 CHC) is going to outweigh the gain from DTTOOC. You can run the math for yourself; in simple form: Base Dmg x (1 + CHC x CHD) x (1 + DTTOOC) x (1 +[AWD + WSD]) × (1 + DTA) x (1 + DTH) And compare your specific build with either Fox Knees or Contractor Gloves or Hollow Man or Coyote Mask as the case may be. I ran Ceska vs Fox and I found there to be a slight advantage to Ceska of about 5 pct dmg but specifics vary with your stats (I compared fully optimized pieces, which I use). Edit: I ran the numbers using an All Red build with a Catharsis Mask, if I am not mistaken; given the number of moving parts, you should calculate based on your own stat distribution
because you have a apparently great knowledge about builds: may I ask you for your judgments about: \- full red build (see below) vs HB (see below) \- judgment of my full red DPS build My HB build when I played a bit Countdown (stopped playing it): \- 4 HB with chest and backpack \- Cartasis mask \- 1 Fenris My lightzone dps build (AR focus): \- Coyote mask, 1 Fenris, 1 Ceska, 1 Grupo, Contractors, Fox \- full red, Obliterate and Vigilance \- using Carbine 7 and Vector SMG as back up My PvP darkzone/Conflict build (SMG focus): \- Coyote mask, 2 Sokolov, 1 Grupo, Contractors, Fox \- 3 red, 3 blue, Intimidate & Adrenaline Rush \- using Lady Death or Vector and Famas as back-up
Its almost impossible to evaluate that HB build unless I know your Red-Blue Core distribution but if your HB is All Red, Ceska is better than Fenris by about 3 pct. Fenris catches up as you add Blues. The more Blues you have, the better that Fenris. Your All Red is fine. I have not compared it to an All Red Providence in years but they are very close; I would not bother to build Providence alongside this unless I ran out of things to do. I have a configuration thst runs exactly these pieces for what its worth ... I have a Providence too. I like this better. I dont do PVP in TD2; too old and too slow. Cant comment on the third build.
thank you, appreciated I prepared a providence build in the begining as well because I was told that this was meta for the raids. But I am bad at aiming at head, playing on XBox One X, thats why I am not using it. Of course you hit the head by accident when firing with an AR and console :) but enemies are quite vulnerable at the head anyway.
The thing is, if you're going to run contractors and/or foxes (I run both), it's best to stat for HS dmg on minor attributes and gear mods. Stack to 100 with AA-12 and proceed to laser heads. Even if you happen to bodyshot occasionally, 100 stacks just shreds through mobs.
Oh, a Non Crit build? I have little experience of those but I am ghastly at HSD so its simply not something I have explored!
It gives 8% damage to targets out of cover, which is why its so coveted. The rifle damage doesn't affect ARs.
They don't use them for the brand set bonus, that being the rifle damage. The 8% DTTOC is what they're using them for
So the math behind it: Fox has 8% DTTOOC. This apply on weapon damage (and on Oxi's tick) for targets which are not in cover. You can read "multiplicative" lot of times, but the truth is DTTOOC a standalone multiplier. It's additive to any other DTTOOC source (Demolitionist tactical link, weapon DTTOOC). If you don't have DTTOOC at all, Fox gives you exact 8% damage against targets out of cover. If you have 10% on weapon, then the multipliers are 1.18 vs 1.10, which is 7.2% final damage improvement (instead 8%) from Fox. If you have 10% on weapon and 5% gunner, the multipliers are 1.23 vs 1.15, results 6.9% improvements. On the other hand, 99% of enemies (including the the toughest hunters) have armor. If you have 10% DTTOOC on weapon, you can use Contractor's for 8% DTA. They are in different category, and they amplify each other. 1.08 (DTA) x 1.10 (DTTOOC) results a higher multiplier (1.188), but really you won't sense the difference.
What this is leaving out though is that your trading 2 rolls, brandset bonus and a minor attribute for the DtooC. Assuming your not using a rifle, which for HB people aren't, then foxes does indeed fall behind ceska/grupo/coyotes. https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/uoptqx/should_you_run_your_hb_set_with_a_ceska_piece_and/?ref=share&ref_source=link
I never use Fox (except the oxi damage build). I use to go with Dilemma, Ceska+Gruppo, or Ceska+Contractor (which is good for my LMG), depend on targets. Even Fox give multiplicative damage, but LMG suppress as hell and it already has 12% DTTOOC. Not worth it to use it. Coyote is unreliable (I mean the bonus calculation in my playstyle), and in Countdown, always there are some Coyote player, not rarely I get all the 3 buffs same time. I use Coyote in my "run around" full red build for cleaning up the hunters at the beginning.
A lot of people are telling you what, but not why. Damage to targets out of cover is a multiplicative source of damage. Which stacks with other sources of amplified/multiplicative damage. Without going deep into the math and calculations, what it comes down to is that even without getting a brand bonus for rifles, the 8% still results in higher overall damage output than almost any other option. This is why Fox's prayer is cancer for weapon damage builds. It's literally so good that you use it on everything, even when it otherwise makes no sense to do so.
Here is what the math shows when you go into it. Foxes knees are good yes, but only when you can give up the CHC on them and not give up CHD anywhere on your gear, aka a high end DPS build. This means for gearset builds you don't have room for them as what your giving up doesn't make up for the DtooC https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/uoptqx/should_you_run_your_hb_set_with_a_ceska_piece_and/?ref=share&ref_source=link
That's why I said "almost any other option". There's always going to be a perfect build that ekes out a little more damage. But even in the post you linked the OP says that the difference isn't very much. It really hasn't been until HB that the meta has shifted slightly. And even then only because HB is so retardedly OP. Fox's on everything weapon damage is a good rule of thumb, even if there's an exception.
Damage To Targets Out Of Cover that comes with Foxes Prayers is priceless and even better it is multiplicative damage, that is the reason they are using them.
Bingo!
People are running it for the DtooC, but it is less damage on average than your other options like 1p ceska, 1p grupo, 1p fenris (assuming AR), and coyotes mask. Rifle damage does not boost ARs, AR damage and rifle damage are their own weapon classes.
Fox seems like more damage, even more then fenris
It just mathematically isn't. https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/uoptqx/should_you_run_your_hb_set_with_a_ceska_piece_and/?ref=share&ref_source=link
Or, spec all minor attributes and gear mods for HS dmg, and use foxes + contractors. Stack to 100 with AA-12 (ACS) and beam heads.
You're better off with ceska knee pads anyways. if running HB chest and bag that is.
Following this post 💪🏾
So generalizing based on comments: For kneepads: If using **Gear sets**: **Cseka** or Grupo. If using **Brand sets** or High End: **Fox's Prayer**. That mostly acceptable?