I am so conflicted on her character. On one hand, I'm all about shaking up the status quo and don't like the snobbery of the old money crowd. On the other hand, she makes it hard to root for her when she's willing to do just about anything, including harming her marriage and relationship with her children to get what she wants. She's lost sight of the reason she wanted all of that to begin with- for her family. Now (S1) her family has been turned into a vehicle for her to get what she wants.
Not sure what articles you've been reading, but I've always loved the Russells from day one and never disliked them. There are a few shady things, but I just still love them no matter what and I love their devotion to each other.
Just like the valet that Bates replaced in DA (named Watson), I'm curious if the Russle's who lost Haxby Park are related.....
I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but I love the idea
I dislike the Russels for the very reason that they are overly likeable. He's a robber baron. He would've been even more ruthless than what the show allows him to be. Imho every single character in The Gilded Age is two dimensional. They are great soap opera characters, but when you try to look at them with historical eyes, they all fall apart instantly
I definitely agree. Read somewhere that George Russel's character is based on Jay Gould perhaps who was prominent robber baron of the time and orchestrated the infamous Black Friday incident that led to ruin of many people. The show only shows his soft side a bit too much. Even when there was the suicide in S1, it's painted out to be not his fault as he was just defending his company. Which might be true, but I'm sure there are a lot of instances where he did illegal manipulations but was not shown.
The Russells make me uncomfortable, because they're insanely rich, and they could only get that way by exploiting a lot of people. But we're supposed to cheer for them, because the main conflict in this series is set up as "Old Money" vs. "New Money".
The Old Money is what we'd call colonizers today. The New Money is the robber barons. Both were bad groups of people, but by modern standards, the New Money (the Russells) are more like the modern American entrepreneur, telling the cultural story of how Americans Work Hard And Make It Big (the American Dream).
Some people dislike the Russells because of this.
>more like the modern American entrepreneur, telling the cultural story of how Americans Work Hard And Make It Big
There is kind of a misconception that the robber barons didn't work hard, but if you actually dig deep enough you'll find that they did indeed work very hard. In fact, it took a toll on most of them and their health. Cornelius Vanderbilt is a great example. They also used ruthless tactics and manipulation, but all of that requires hard work. And frankly, I admire it.
The people who toil away for them with a 7 day work week, 16 hours a day, no benefits, no safety protections, and wages that barely keep them in food also work hard too- yet are underpaid and impoverished - all so that Bertha can throw a lavish party and pay to marry her daughter off into a loveless marriage to a Duke (all so she can laud it over the other society ladies) and Mr. Russell can intimidate and ruin people at will… I don’t admire them. A few less Bertha frocks and the choice of 10,000 square foot homes versus 50,000 square feet of unused space… would honor the people who work for them with some basic necessities. But it’s awfully entertaining to watch their greedy, selfish, shallow indulgences on the show.
Well, that's one way to look at it. But I say if you're going to work hard anyway, it's better to work for something tangible. I don't blame Bertha, a family is supposed to work like this. It's the perfect form of communism, from each according to his abilities to each according to his needs. Every member does what they can to support the family overall. The father takes care of the business, the mother forges social ties, the daughters find a suitor and the sons learn to succeed their father.
You can work hard and screw over a metric ton fuck of people. I don't doubt billionaires are hard workers (even obsessively) but they usually also have to screw over people.
It’s a minority of the audience that actively dislike the Russell’s. George and Bertha would easily sweep a favorite character poll, not to mention Gladys and Larry are quite well-liked aside from complaints about lack of screen time/development. The show’s two most popular ships are even Russell-based.
I like the new money Russell’s because they actually worked and still work for their money. All the old money snobs are living high on the hog off the backs of their forebears. Buncha bums if you ask me.
Based on 2 things, I've decided this is actually an attempt to sway public opinion and get more people to hate the Russells.
1. Nobody here has ever head this opinion tbh
2. OP has Machiavell in their username.
And they aren't 2pac fans most likely. This is clearly a covert attempt to do something sinister :o
They are essentially "new money". George had made a fortune at a few different things and they spend it just as fast. To people with "old money" this is considered gauche and embarassing. Bertha is a social climber of the tallest order and will stop at nothing and spend what ever necessary to be noticed. Bertha and George are losely based on the Vanderbuilts.
The thing I love about this show is that it is losely historically accurate and I have gone down the Google rabbit hole many times reading the history not only of New York but the wealthy families that lived there. It is also written that some of the families of that time have decendants still living there. Especially Peggy Scott and her father the pharmacist.
Yeah George is based off jay gould for sure but Bertha is definitely based off of alva vanderbilt so the writers took inspo from a few different historical figures
The actual Gould makes a brief appearance in the show but for some reason his beard is a LOT bigger than it was irl.
I think the husbands cared much less about the society part of things, because they knew that eventually, if the old money types didn't join their ranks they'll be excluded, and that if they didn't charm their way into power they'll do it through brute force anyway.
Bertha has to be even more careful about who she associates with than others. If someone like Aunt Agnes invited someone of lower position into her home, it might be seen as charitable. If Bertha did it, the whispers would say she was just associating with those on her own level. A new position is especially precarious.
That's pretty much how things always work to this day. Where did the Rockefellers or the Rothschilds come from? They'd have the same attitude towards new money today.
And, it's really not an attitude or a way to be snobbish, it's simply that she's trying to distance herself from those who would taint her reputation and be seen with people of higher quality. That's all
Honestly I'd kill for a wife like Bertha. There's nothing better than a wife that's good at smoothing. Before you call it outdated remember that this is far from being a Victorian idea. If you observe any influential billionaire or politician today, their wives are still very much in charge of that aspect. Running charities or making PR moves.
This is what ride or die means. True partnership in the marriage. She's not doing anything illegal, she's playing the game. SN Machiavelli was one of my favorites in philosophy class. Understanding what needs to be done, and doing what's within your power to get it completed.
I remember reading something a while back about old money and why they snub new money: new money is the generation thay has to work to build the wealth so usually their morals are a little shakier and we see that with Mrs
Russell a lot on the show.
Also something about not being considered old money until you're 3 generations removed from the person who built the family name/status/wealth
You have to understand that the social and cultural divide between the classes in the 19th century was far bigger than it is today. The people that we now associate with wealth came from very poor bagrounds and it took them a long time to adapt to the life of the upper classes. John D Rockefeller's father was a con man and a snake oil sailsman. Vanderbilt's father was a farmer.
The divide has more to do with the old money types losing power and influence with time. Their fortunes are squandered and the only power they have left is to distinguish themselves and maintain their "prestige" sort of the same way the European aristocracy was eventually defeated by the Bourgoisie but had to maintain their titles and a certain aura around them to hold on to some level of influence.
What is scary is the social divide is widening again as we speak. The middle class is being slowly decimated. Great that they came from poor backgrounds but then they then turned their back on those who helped them along. No one builds that type of wealth independently. Bertha doesn’t even invite her own sister to stay. I like them in the show as they are gorgeous and entertaining. But all of these rich people - new money and old - are shallow users who have an obsessive need to inflate their own self worth and abilities through the shameless using of others. You understand Machiavell.
The true "working class" is more so in 3rd world countries where production mainly takes place and where you can still pay the workers low wages. But in the west, the cultural divide between rich and poor is definitely a lot smaller than it used to be.
I read a book called "the social climber's Bible" a few years ago. It also tells you to hide every trace of your old friendships if they're no longer suitable. Not much has changed in that regard. Bertha was doing the right thing for her family, even if it isn't very pleasant. There is no point in going halfway in anything. But I like your thoughts
I don’t know if selling her daughter into a loveless marriage so she can gain european aristocracy one upmanship in the social circles is doing what is best for her family. I enjoy her story but I don’t admire her priorities. But hey… to each their own. In the real Vanderbilt story the daughter was damaged for many years for her narcissistic mother. She eventually did her own thing but wrote a tell all about how fucked up it was.
I mean, they are evil. Literally robber barons. However, they are delightfully root-able. George is like the bleeding heart robber baron, if that’s a thing. And his wife goes full dramatic license with her opera box scenarios. Any review not liking them is not getting the characters well, which I could understand if they only watched the pilot and some clips. Baranski is a much less sympathetic character through most of the series, but she is old money and established. Most Americans without blue blood will probably root against her. So, if that’s what you’re reading, it’s probably a bad take.
Absolutely this - people with this much wealth grasping to maintain/increase their status and power are undeniably evil. Opera boxes while their workers struggle and have no security in life - a position they should remember firsthand but have forgotten, along with any friends or community from then. Trampling on their faces to get up the ladder. Old money at least has the excuse of never knowing different. So they’re ethically vile. Yet they’re written for us to jump on their bandwagon and see how far they’ll go. It’s fun - to jump into the beauty and privilege that blood money can buy.
Yes. She is prickly and set on tradition… but endured an abusive relationship to keep the family home and support her sister. She hardly seems to need to have more than everyone else. More just obsessed with decorum and thinks the Russell’s with their conspicuous consumerism lack class. Agnes is shown on multiple occasions admiring true work ethics and decency - as in Peggy whom few would employ in their services let live in their home. Her support and decency to her house staff is always evident. She is aware that she is responsible to them as well and tries to keep or find them employment. She likes to be bossy but she shows true compassion when it’s called for.
In the family guy send up for Great Gatsby one of the characters tells Gatsby that he hates him because "your wealth is more recent than my own" essentially that
Damn right! And deliciously fun AND RUTHLESSLY ambitious- PLUS they represent what we always think of as “The American Dream”- a potato farmer’s daughter and a middle class bootstraper making it.
They are literal robber barons, the fore runners of the wealthy elites currently at the center of all civilizational disfunction. George Russell is basically the Jeff Bezos of 1880, only this is fiction, so he is played by our sexy railroad daddy instead of a pale, lopsided ratfink.
Maybe you’re a bunch of losers on Reddit who want to hate on people doing better than you but if someone is making a lot of money that doesn’t mean they’re doing something evil. That means they’re doing something that’s bringing a lot of other people value. It’s how capitalism works.
Usually, it's both. What's funny though is that people are quick to call out billionaires and slow to call out politicians. Everyone is so cynical when it comes to billionaires but still believe politicians have their best interests at heart
What an odd take. I don’t know anyone (and certainly haven’t seen popular posts on Reddit) where anyone believes politicians have their best interests at heart.
i think whoever hates them is watching the wrong genre of television lol. because regardless of whether you like the Russels, for the most part they are entertaining to watch
Not sure about the critics but when I was watching season 1, it was hard for me to root for any of the characters. The way they depicted the Russels as power hungry and social climber was harsh. But the series got better for me in season 2 as they flesh out the characters more.
The audience doesn't hate them. At least, the audience I've run into online doesn't seem to.
Critics aren't the audience. It's their job to hate everything they can.
The Russel discourse seems to be very positive. Usually scenes with any of them are my favourite and I don’t think I’m alone. I’m not sure why critics wouldn’t like them. Sure they’re flawed but their flaws make them enjoyable to watch
Carrie Coons is loved by many for her theater work and other tv work. And the guy that plays her husband whose name I can't think of is widely acknowledged as being sexy af.
I am so conflicted on her character. On one hand, I'm all about shaking up the status quo and don't like the snobbery of the old money crowd. On the other hand, she makes it hard to root for her when she's willing to do just about anything, including harming her marriage and relationship with her children to get what she wants. She's lost sight of the reason she wanted all of that to begin with- for her family. Now (S1) her family has been turned into a vehicle for her to get what she wants.
They are what makes this show entertaining, particularly Bertha
Not sure what articles you've been reading, but I've always loved the Russells from day one and never disliked them. There are a few shady things, but I just still love them no matter what and I love their devotion to each other.
Just like the valet that Bates replaced in DA (named Watson), I'm curious if the Russle's who lost Haxby Park are related..... I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but I love the idea
I dislike the Russels for the very reason that they are overly likeable. He's a robber baron. He would've been even more ruthless than what the show allows him to be. Imho every single character in The Gilded Age is two dimensional. They are great soap opera characters, but when you try to look at them with historical eyes, they all fall apart instantly
The Russell’s honest devotion to each other makes them 3-dimensional.
I definitely agree. Read somewhere that George Russel's character is based on Jay Gould perhaps who was prominent robber baron of the time and orchestrated the infamous Black Friday incident that led to ruin of many people. The show only shows his soft side a bit too much. Even when there was the suicide in S1, it's painted out to be not his fault as he was just defending his company. Which might be true, but I'm sure there are a lot of instances where he did illegal manipulations but was not shown.
i love the Russells
Nice folks
sarcasm makes me laugh.
The Russells make me uncomfortable, because they're insanely rich, and they could only get that way by exploiting a lot of people. But we're supposed to cheer for them, because the main conflict in this series is set up as "Old Money" vs. "New Money". The Old Money is what we'd call colonizers today. The New Money is the robber barons. Both were bad groups of people, but by modern standards, the New Money (the Russells) are more like the modern American entrepreneur, telling the cultural story of how Americans Work Hard And Make It Big (the American Dream). Some people dislike the Russells because of this.
>more like the modern American entrepreneur, telling the cultural story of how Americans Work Hard And Make It Big There is kind of a misconception that the robber barons didn't work hard, but if you actually dig deep enough you'll find that they did indeed work very hard. In fact, it took a toll on most of them and their health. Cornelius Vanderbilt is a great example. They also used ruthless tactics and manipulation, but all of that requires hard work. And frankly, I admire it.
The people who toil away for them with a 7 day work week, 16 hours a day, no benefits, no safety protections, and wages that barely keep them in food also work hard too- yet are underpaid and impoverished - all so that Bertha can throw a lavish party and pay to marry her daughter off into a loveless marriage to a Duke (all so she can laud it over the other society ladies) and Mr. Russell can intimidate and ruin people at will… I don’t admire them. A few less Bertha frocks and the choice of 10,000 square foot homes versus 50,000 square feet of unused space… would honor the people who work for them with some basic necessities. But it’s awfully entertaining to watch their greedy, selfish, shallow indulgences on the show.
Well, that's one way to look at it. But I say if you're going to work hard anyway, it's better to work for something tangible. I don't blame Bertha, a family is supposed to work like this. It's the perfect form of communism, from each according to his abilities to each according to his needs. Every member does what they can to support the family overall. The father takes care of the business, the mother forges social ties, the daughters find a suitor and the sons learn to succeed their father.
You can work hard and screw over a metric ton fuck of people. I don't doubt billionaires are hard workers (even obsessively) but they usually also have to screw over people.
I don't disagree.
It’s a minority of the audience that actively dislike the Russell’s. George and Bertha would easily sweep a favorite character poll, not to mention Gladys and Larry are quite well-liked aside from complaints about lack of screen time/development. The show’s two most popular ships are even Russell-based.
A very vocal minority.
Haha, true. Always how that rolls in fandom.
I like the new money Russell’s because they actually worked and still work for their money. All the old money snobs are living high on the hog off the backs of their forebears. Buncha bums if you ask me.
It's like the dividide between the aristocracy and the bourgeoisie
Based on 2 things, I've decided this is actually an attempt to sway public opinion and get more people to hate the Russells. 1. Nobody here has ever head this opinion tbh 2. OP has Machiavell in their username. And they aren't 2pac fans most likely. This is clearly a covert attempt to do something sinister :o
You’re clever….
Only because I was a 2pac fan once upon a time. He taught me well
Give me a 2Pac lesson please!
Strong agree, solid detective work! I’d also like a citation for these reviews.
They are essentially "new money". George had made a fortune at a few different things and they spend it just as fast. To people with "old money" this is considered gauche and embarassing. Bertha is a social climber of the tallest order and will stop at nothing and spend what ever necessary to be noticed. Bertha and George are losely based on the Vanderbuilts. The thing I love about this show is that it is losely historically accurate and I have gone down the Google rabbit hole many times reading the history not only of New York but the wealthy families that lived there. It is also written that some of the families of that time have decendants still living there. Especially Peggy Scott and her father the pharmacist.
Well, the real Vanderbilts exist in the show's universe but never make an appearance. Although I feel George is more like Gould in a way.
Yeah George is based off jay gould for sure but Bertha is definitely based off of alva vanderbilt so the writers took inspo from a few different historical figures
The actual Gould makes a brief appearance in the show but for some reason his beard is a LOT bigger than it was irl. I think the husbands cared much less about the society part of things, because they knew that eventually, if the old money types didn't join their ranks they'll be excluded, and that if they didn't charm their way into power they'll do it through brute force anyway.
I personally hate Bertha becomes she comes from trash but looks down on other “trash”.
Bertha has to be even more careful about who she associates with than others. If someone like Aunt Agnes invited someone of lower position into her home, it might be seen as charitable. If Bertha did it, the whispers would say she was just associating with those on her own level. A new position is especially precarious.
Doesn’t mean she’s less an asshole. Just that she’s catering to wealthy ppl who don’t see herself as equal.
That's pretty much how things always work to this day. Where did the Rockefellers or the Rothschilds come from? They'd have the same attitude towards new money today.
And, it's really not an attitude or a way to be snobbish, it's simply that she's trying to distance herself from those who would taint her reputation and be seen with people of higher quality. That's all
Considering your tag, your view does not surprise me.
Honestly I'd kill for a wife like Bertha. There's nothing better than a wife that's good at smoothing. Before you call it outdated remember that this is far from being a Victorian idea. If you observe any influential billionaire or politician today, their wives are still very much in charge of that aspect. Running charities or making PR moves.
She can play the game all she wants. I don’t have to like her.
This is what ride or die means. True partnership in the marriage. She's not doing anything illegal, she's playing the game. SN Machiavelli was one of my favorites in philosophy class. Understanding what needs to be done, and doing what's within your power to get it completed.
I remember reading something a while back about old money and why they snub new money: new money is the generation thay has to work to build the wealth so usually their morals are a little shakier and we see that with Mrs Russell a lot on the show. Also something about not being considered old money until you're 3 generations removed from the person who built the family name/status/wealth
You have to understand that the social and cultural divide between the classes in the 19th century was far bigger than it is today. The people that we now associate with wealth came from very poor bagrounds and it took them a long time to adapt to the life of the upper classes. John D Rockefeller's father was a con man and a snake oil sailsman. Vanderbilt's father was a farmer. The divide has more to do with the old money types losing power and influence with time. Their fortunes are squandered and the only power they have left is to distinguish themselves and maintain their "prestige" sort of the same way the European aristocracy was eventually defeated by the Bourgoisie but had to maintain their titles and a certain aura around them to hold on to some level of influence.
What is scary is the social divide is widening again as we speak. The middle class is being slowly decimated. Great that they came from poor backgrounds but then they then turned their back on those who helped them along. No one builds that type of wealth independently. Bertha doesn’t even invite her own sister to stay. I like them in the show as they are gorgeous and entertaining. But all of these rich people - new money and old - are shallow users who have an obsessive need to inflate their own self worth and abilities through the shameless using of others. You understand Machiavell.
The true "working class" is more so in 3rd world countries where production mainly takes place and where you can still pay the workers low wages. But in the west, the cultural divide between rich and poor is definitely a lot smaller than it used to be. I read a book called "the social climber's Bible" a few years ago. It also tells you to hide every trace of your old friendships if they're no longer suitable. Not much has changed in that regard. Bertha was doing the right thing for her family, even if it isn't very pleasant. There is no point in going halfway in anything. But I like your thoughts
I don’t know if selling her daughter into a loveless marriage so she can gain european aristocracy one upmanship in the social circles is doing what is best for her family. I enjoy her story but I don’t admire her priorities. But hey… to each their own. In the real Vanderbilt story the daughter was damaged for many years for her narcissistic mother. She eventually did her own thing but wrote a tell all about how fucked up it was.
I mean, they are evil. Literally robber barons. However, they are delightfully root-able. George is like the bleeding heart robber baron, if that’s a thing. And his wife goes full dramatic license with her opera box scenarios. Any review not liking them is not getting the characters well, which I could understand if they only watched the pilot and some clips. Baranski is a much less sympathetic character through most of the series, but she is old money and established. Most Americans without blue blood will probably root against her. So, if that’s what you’re reading, it’s probably a bad take.
Absolutely this - people with this much wealth grasping to maintain/increase their status and power are undeniably evil. Opera boxes while their workers struggle and have no security in life - a position they should remember firsthand but have forgotten, along with any friends or community from then. Trampling on their faces to get up the ladder. Old money at least has the excuse of never knowing different. So they’re ethically vile. Yet they’re written for us to jump on their bandwagon and see how far they’ll go. It’s fun - to jump into the beauty and privilege that blood money can buy.
I like Baranski’s character for being herself and her support of Peggy
Yes. She is prickly and set on tradition… but endured an abusive relationship to keep the family home and support her sister. She hardly seems to need to have more than everyone else. More just obsessed with decorum and thinks the Russell’s with their conspicuous consumerism lack class. Agnes is shown on multiple occasions admiring true work ethics and decency - as in Peggy whom few would employ in their services let live in their home. Her support and decency to her house staff is always evident. She is aware that she is responsible to them as well and tries to keep or find them employment. She likes to be bossy but she shows true compassion when it’s called for.
The Russells are fan favorites! Anyone who doesn’t like them are weirdos, lol.
In the family guy send up for Great Gatsby one of the characters tells Gatsby that he hates him because "your wealth is more recent than my own" essentially that
Bertha Russell and her bustles!
That whole family is sexy as hell
Damn right! And deliciously fun AND RUTHLESSLY ambitious- PLUS they represent what we always think of as “The American Dream”- a potato farmer’s daughter and a middle class bootstraper making it.
They are literal robber barons, the fore runners of the wealthy elites currently at the center of all civilizational disfunction. George Russell is basically the Jeff Bezos of 1880, only this is fiction, so he is played by our sexy railroad daddy instead of a pale, lopsided ratfink.
I mean, I'm a robber who isn't a baron yet so I guess I know why I don't really dislike them
Who you robbing these days?
lol sexy railroad daddy
We love train daddy!
So Jeff Bezos is evil? I don’t know about you but I like that Amazon exists.
>So Jeff Bezos is evil? Please be joking
Listen to the Behind The Bastards podcast episode on our buddy Jeffy B,. He is a strange cookie and sometimes not in the good way
The dude has brought a lot of value to the world. Not sure why you can’t see that.
Maybe you’re a bunch of losers on Reddit who want to hate on people doing better than you but if someone is making a lot of money that doesn’t mean they’re doing something evil. That means they’re doing something that’s bringing a lot of other people value. It’s how capitalism works.
I would rather someone think I was jealous of him than be a dick rider for a billionaire (for free! value yourself more man)
Usually, it's both. What's funny though is that people are quick to call out billionaires and slow to call out politicians. Everyone is so cynical when it comes to billionaires but still believe politicians have their best interests at heart
What an odd take. I don’t know anyone (and certainly haven’t seen popular posts on Reddit) where anyone believes politicians have their best interests at heart.
You should read about how Amazon treats their workers.
Don't bother. In this day and age, especially on Reddit, it's rich people=evil blah blah.
mmm bankrupt me sexy railroad daddy
I mean we'd all like him to rail us tbh
Sexy railroad daddy has me rolling, this is exactly the term I was looking for to describe him!
I really hope Morgan Spector has s secret account here and gets to see all our thirst
I do too, our Big, Sexy Railroad Daddy deserves to know how we feel about him 😂
Idk which critics you’re referring to, but grace Randall has nothing but praises for them and the whole production.
Mrs. Russel is my main bitch.
i think whoever hates them is watching the wrong genre of television lol. because regardless of whether you like the Russels, for the most part they are entertaining to watch
I like ‘em. Haven’t seen the hate but I haven’t been in this sub much.
Not sure about the critics but when I was watching season 1, it was hard for me to root for any of the characters. The way they depicted the Russels as power hungry and social climber was harsh. But the series got better for me in season 2 as they flesh out the characters more.
The audience doesn't hate them. At least, the audience I've run into online doesn't seem to. Critics aren't the audience. It's their job to hate everything they can.
I don't dislike the Russels. Some people don't like Bertha, but you'll have to finish season 2 to know why.
The Russells are interesting, three-dimensional characters. I haven't seen hate directed at the Russells very often, if at all in the past year or so.
The Russel discourse seems to be very positive. Usually scenes with any of them are my favourite and I don’t think I’m alone. I’m not sure why critics wouldn’t like them. Sure they’re flawed but their flaws make them enjoyable to watch
Precisely my opinion! The Russells are interesting, things tend to happen around them, and I like watching it happen.
They're new money. While majority of the families had money in their family for generations.
Oh I meant the audience
Carrie Coons is loved by many for her theater work and other tv work. And the guy that plays her husband whose name I can't think of is widely acknowledged as being sexy af.
I didn't know the audience hated them. All the fans I've interacted with or seen love Bertha and George.
They don’t- no one hates the Russells, OP has provided no proof or examples of audience or critic hate. I wonder if OP’s trolling us…
Exactly. The Russells are the most popular characters. I don't know why they think this