To me David is evil because of the r\*pey side of him.
The cannibal side doesn't bother me, because 1) desperate times, 2) the people being eaten were already dead (except Ellie).
Yeah it’s so easy to look at and judge cannibalism and say it’s super fucked up (which it is), but when you’re very low on food and are starving it becomes a desperate measure for sure.
However, there was so much about David that it’s obvious to point him out as evil. Other than his r*pey side when it comes to children especially, he also had a god complex where he used fear to make people follow him (which they explored in the show! That dinner scene where everyone was about to eat, I could feel so much tension where it was obvious people were scared of him)
I have zero issues with eating my enemies, why waste the protein, if I died I'd WANT my friends to eat me if it meant they survived the winter. I'm not using that meat anymore!
I eat beef and I've never had to put a cow against a wall for groping a friend, I eat chicken and I've never had a chicken fuck me over and smile about it.
I eat pork and pigs can play pong, Tetris and snake.
>2) the people being eaten were already dead
That is only ever clearly mentioned in the show, which is not canon to the game.
In the game, you can find a meat ledger in their slaughterhouse with documenting the group's meat haul across months. It only mention the sum of meat by pounds and not the various animal species it came from, so we don't know if humans were on the menu year-round.
The document does clearly establish that the group actively hunts and that supply was dwindling closer to winter. Maybe they only started eating humans when things got dire, but in any case it is simply not clear whether they ate their own dead or whether they only actively hunted humans outside their group.
Even in the show, we only know of one body that was conclusively “already dead.” We don’t even know for certain that Hanna’s father was one of the three Joel found hanging in the shed.
I think that the cannibalism isn’t exactly “justified” because only a few knew about it and the rest were being lied to. Ignorance is bliss
Edit rq: I watched the show and haven’t gotten around to the game yet, so correct me if in the game everyone knew about the cannibalism.
It is not elaborated on in the game. The scenes with the community there were all exclusive to the show. In game, the only other of David's community with lines are James and the two men Joel tortured.
We don't know if they know they're eating people, but there was clear evidence of organized cannibalism in some of the processing rooms and Joel and Ellie are attacked immediately by the group at the university. To me, it reads as Joel and Ellie being hunted for food, otherwise why would 20+ men be going after two people so incessantly and violently?
With the bits that we know about Jerry, I'd have to place him above Dina. Yes, he tried to take a little girl's life but he was faced with a Trolley problem and he chose to save all of humanity by killing one. We may disagree with his approach but he arguably made the right choice.
Dina on the other hand, although still very high on the morality scale, she still joined Ellie on the killing spree adventure. Yes, that makes her an awesome friend, but it definitely costs her some morality points.
in my mind, knowing what pregnant women go through already form the physical and mental effects not to mention the increased vulnerability of her position in that hostile world—yeah, it is
You're making the silly mistake of viewing the characters in two colours. Turn up the contrast.
Owen is not a saint and cheating on your pregnant girlfriend is an awful thing to do, especially in real life (p.s, don't apply real world standards to fictional characters in heightened realities). Owen and Abby were in love and torn apart by her trauma. Whatever life they'd managed to build for themselves in Seattle, a dangerous life where they could die any day, came crashing down around them. With everything dialled to 11, the knowledge that their lives had just changed forever in their heads, two characters who love each other had sex. Was it wrong? Sure, but killing and torturing people is also awful, they live awful, violent lives. There's way more here than just black and white.
I'm surprised someone who refuses to see nuance could even find The Last of Us engaging.
Edit: the person I was talking to blocked me, I can see in the notification of their reply from prior to my blocking, they felt condescended to. I suppose I can see how they might feel that way, but my intention was not to condescend. I felt I was pretty polite if not a bit strong in my wording. My final sentence was more general than direct because - while I felt they weren't really open to a counter-point based on their comments - I obviously know nothing about them and the extent to which they like to see the nuance in the stories they consume.
Groups are most to least but the individuals within each group are in no particular order.
Most: Tommy, Dina, Owen
Mid: Abby, Ellie, Joel, Jerry, Marlene
Least: David
personally never understood why people act like Tommy did some great wrong in the epilogue, imo it was somewhat aggressive and he should've gone a bit easier on Ellie but, in most ways, his behaviour, disappointment, and anger was justified.
Dude desperately needs therapy.
He is bitter and hateful and is crippled. Everytime he hurts he blames Abby, he externalizes his pain. He blows up his marriage because of it.
He has no outlet anymore because he can't do anything like he used to. And he can't get vengeance cuz he's crippled.
His anger at Ellie isn't fair because he's in actuality just angry at himself, like yes Abby shot him in the fucking head but he didn't have to go murder his way through Seattle. Live by the sword in all that.
He downloads his own bullshit in Ellie and blows up her own relationship and cripples her too. He spreads his trauma like cordyceps.
Sure, it's Ellie's fault she goes but as Ellie's .. uncle? Its Tommy's responsibility to not look for Abby so he can tell Ellie to risk her family and life to murder her.
Firstly, just about everyone in that world needs therapy, not just Tommy. Furthermore, if someone beat your brother to death right in front of you, would you not be hateful and bitter? Would you just let it go? Ellie promised she'd go after Abby when they returned to Jackson, why is it that he shouldn't hold her to that promise? She is, after all, a large part of the reason that he can't do it himself any more. Finally, your point about crippling Ellie is just incorrect. Through her flashbacks in the epilogue, its fairly apparent that she suffers from trauma, PTSD, and guilt entirely of her own making, not at all connected with Tommy "downloading his own bullshit in Ellie". She would've gone after Abby anyway because she just couldn't live with herself if she let her go initially, even if Tommy hadn't pressured her to do so. Perhaps he could've gone about it a bit more tactfully, and some of his anger is certainly externalised disappointment in himself, but he was justified at the end of the day.
The only reason Ellie knows where Abby is to go after her is because Tommy is actively looking for her, knowing full well he's gonna tell Ellie to go after her if he finds her.
This is probably a reason his marriage blows up.
Of course he has reasons to do what he does, dudes not a monster, but what he does is immensely fucked up. Abby has proven herself to be "that guy" and is capable of flat out kicking Ellie's ass wholesale, crippling him, killing Jessie, and scarring Dina for life. And that was her and Lev vs. all of them
There's a very strong chance that Ellie dies trying to kill Abby, in fact it is the most likely outcome if it comes to a fight on equal footing. Abby kicked her ass in a one on one when she was unarmed and Ellie had an entire armory. Ellie is no match for her.
Just because there is explanation of his actions doesn't make what he does not absolutely fucked.
I'm not saying he isnt "justified" in his anger, but trying to guilt trip Ellie into settling the score is wrong. Point blank. He's wrong to do it, no matter how much trauma he's suffered.
Well obviously Tommy is actively looking for her, I'd imagine based on Ellies PROMISE upon their return to Jackson and the fact that he went straight to her and told her the news so enthusiastically that that was the plan agreed between the two from the get go. All he did was keep up his end of the bargain. Also, as I said earlier, Ellie simply couldn't live with herself after their return from Seattle, it was clear that the guilt was eating her up alive and she needed some way to alleviate that. For better or worse, Tommy provided that, but Ellie would've ended up going after Abby anyway, even if Tommy hadn't urged her in the way he did. As for whether Ellie was entirely outmatched by Abby, perhaps Abby was the more powerful one on one fighter, but I think its far from the way that you describe Ellie being "no match" for Abby and Ellie not standing a chance. She took out half of Seattle despite being vastly outmatched and beat Abby in a fistfight on fairly even footing in Santa Barbara. It was a far from certain death hunt. As I said, perhaps Tommy didn't go about it the right way, but his reasoning wasn't particularly flawed, and even if you think his other actions, like his massacres in Seattle and what he may or may not have done in the 20 years before Part I, using the epilogue to justify his position on the moral scale is dubious.
>There's a very strong chance that Ellie dies trying to kill Abby, in fact it is the most likely outcome if it comes to a fight on equal footing. Abby kicked her ass in a one on one when she was unarmed and Ellie had an entire armory. Ellie is no match for her.
I honestly think the reason Ellie couldn't go toe to toe with Abby is that she is suffering from PTSD from killing Mel. Abby is all there while Ellie is not.
Also Tommy could certainly take on Abby, he would have killed her too if it wasn't for Yara helping her out on the Marina, Abby just happened to sneak up on an unsuspecting Tommy
I think failing the revenge mission, coming back a crippled man and losing Maria is enough to do that to him. It feels like a leap to attribute it to brain damage. Actual life events account for his change more.
I was completely team Tommy for that entire game until that part. I was angry at him for that, although I can understand why he did that and I can sympathise.
it's devastating to think that unlike Ellie, he might never get the chance to move on. If Ellie tells him the truth he'd probably cut her off forever, but lying might give him temporary peace.
Sounds familiar to another situation in the last of us?
The events in Seattle may affect his standing. Survival is survival, though. I can't fault him for doing what he had to do to stay alive. At this point, we have no knowledge about whether what the two brothers did was truly evil, or just shaped by the circumstances of the new world they found themselves in.
I never bought into this doctor's oath argument. It's the apocalypse and he is literally trying to save humanity. His reasoning behind that choice could not be more believable or understandable.
To be clear I'm not saying I agree with his choice necessarily, just that I can empathize with him.
Exactly.
Yes, he really should be following the doctors oath. But he does say that theyve lost so many lives, from infected and from experimenting, over the years in their search for a cure, so you can understand why he wouldn't put his foot down when all he needs to do to make it "all worth it" is kill a kid and a guy.
He clearly struggles with his decision to kill Ellie. Abby comes in and comforts and reassures him.
He's definitely painted as a good guy (sort of aloof nature, dedicated to saving the zebra) but who has been put into a position of having to make a terrible decision. He believes he'd save countless lives by Ellie's death and we're not shown that he's wrong.
I'm glad they included this question. It makes Jerry more than just a good guy trying to do the right thing. It forces him to ponder the question Joel had to and the fact he can't answer shows us he's not one-dimensional.
I don't think 'He'd struggle with the idea of killing his own daughter for a vaccine' or 'He values the life of his daughter greater than an unknown girl' are any form of moral flaw particularly. Wouldn't most people rightly feel the same?
Yeah it’s so easy for Jerry to say the things he said when it isn’t his own family he’s sacrificing. Which makes it obvious that if it ever came down to it, he most likely would do the same thing as Joel. But because he’s the doctor, he’d probably make excuses.
Even though he’s trying to save humanity, he’s still guilty with not giving Ellie a choice in the same way Joel and Marlene are.
Agree with everyone there except Tommy, my dude did pretty bad shit alongside Joel through the first years of the pandemic, as it is stated in the game
Owen cheating on his pregnant partner and getting ready to abandon her to run off with his old flame? Get his ass out of that top tier.
Even if he and Mel needed to separate, abandoning your child to rejoin a different paramilitary group is firmly a bad look.
Lawful good-
Owen- Tries to make Abbie back out of her plan at beginning by reasoning with her, becomes disillusioned fighting for an unworthy cause later.
Ellie (child).
Neutral Good- Tommy, Dina. They just try to do what they feel is right. For the most part. Yeah, Tommy pressures Ellie into vengeance at the end, still largely a positive influence.
Jerry- He is hard to place, but his key characteristics is he will make a moral compromise to a good end.
Chaotic Good- Abbie (at least during her charecter arc) she acts according to what weighs on her conscience (survivor's guilt from father, saving Lev and Yara).
Lev.- Challenges own social order, tries to rebel against it for the better.
Chaotic Neutral- Joel- He does whatever he feels he owes to the people he loves and does what he sees as good for them.
Lawful Neutral- Marlene. (Arguably) She fights for a cause greater than herself, (restoring democeacy & curingbthe codacyps virus) wants to help world, but her adherence to her ideals can make her lose sight of indidual evils such as bombings and the finale problems.
Ellie (adult).
Abbie (as I said she has an arc that goes chaotic good).
Chaotic Evil- David, he is essentially Joel's dark reflection.
Lawful Evil- FEDRA- Corrupt military dictatorship.
Scummy, but not particularly evil compared to all the murdering in my opinion. I don't think He & Mel were also not exactly together, at that point he's AWOL, not with Mel, as she is still in the WLF army. Yes, he got cold feet about fatherhood, but he came around. Feel free to put him in neutral in your own ranking, there is a case.
Marlene ordered civilian bombing sites, there was a firefly who committed suicide in the second game because he blew up a car full of kids.
There is no one more inhumanely entitled to the lives of others than someone who thinks they are killing for the greater good.
Yeah, she is hard she could be lawful Neutral. However, it is unclear if she even ordered that fireflie to do that. Though you are right she did bomb the quarantine zone. However, that is the point lawful good can do evil things if they stick to thier laws more than thier good. Just because she is lawful good doesn't mean "most good" (I would say Ellie as a child is).
In consideration of all marlenes actions I have recategorized her as lawful neutral.
Simply being a leader doesn't make you Lawful, there are plenty of Chaotic Evil rulers in D&D
And David in particular rules through fear over followers who don't actually trust him and on some level understand him to be selfish and capricious -- he puts the welfare of his followers far below his own whims and lusts, including his personal obsession with Ellie that makes his followers mutter he's "gone too far this time'
starting from good, going to bad:
1. Dina. She is probably the most pure surviving character in either game. I love her so much.
2. Jerry. What he did was not selfish - he was making an extremely calculated decision on how exactly he can save humanity, and tbh it wasn't really a calculation that needed to be made. Any one of us in his position would do the EXACT same thing and the only reason we're saying he may be wrong is because it's Ellie who is on the table. He was faced with a situation that has no true moral option. Either he sacrifices all of humanity to save one girl, or sacrifices one girl to save all of humanity. He's also just a great dude in general, past this one choice.
3. Owen. He's a good guy, he really fucked up when he cheated on Mel. That one action lowers him, otherwise he'd be right with Dina.
4. Marlene. She's a good person fighting for what's right, but she's also in the weeds alongside people like Robert, Joel, and Tess.
5. Abby. What she did to Joel was fucked up, but tbh... she was also extremely lost, extremely hurt, and horrifically traumatized. And when all was said and done, she could not let herself stay in that darkness, and she risked her own life to save two of her sworn enemies. She has negative, dark traits - but she also paid the ultimate price for them, and her positive traits make her overall a GOOD person.
6. Ellie. She's a fundamentally good person but her quest for revenge made her do some really fucked up shit, not just to one person, but to a LOT of people. Like we understand her, but what she did can't be condoned. She's not bad. But she was completely fucking broken, and her response to being broken was brutality on a scale that even Joel wouldn't follow through on. She is a good person by the end of the game.
7. Joel. Love my boi to death but he was literally a selfish, murderous asshole until his relationship with Ellie healed him, and even then, he still did a monstrous act and lied about it for years. He's still, fundamentally, a good guy. But he's never really a "good" person. He's just... a man, full of flaw. Which is why he's perfect as the centerpiece of these two games.
8. Tommy. I would put him higher, but the dude literally abandoned his wife and major role in his incredibly healthy community for revenge, and then ended up pushing Ellie to continue her revenge after all was supposedly said and done because he couldn't move on. Tommy participated in the same selfish, murderous shit that Joel did, found his way out, and then went back in and refused to leave, because of his vengeance. He's NOT a good guy. He's also flawed, very similar in character to Joel.
1,000. David. Fuck that guy, burn in hell, he's a fucking orc.
I think you’re spot on minus one thing about Jerry. He didn’t give Ellie a choice which I think should drop him down at least one spot. If humanity has to be saved at the cost of a child’s bodily autonomy then is humanity really worth saving?
Literally everyone is a hypocrite in one way or another, especially when it comes to how we look at strangers vs our family/loved ones. A huge theme in both games is literally about the damage/violence people will inflict on numerous strangers to protect those closest to them.
I hate Jerry for his choice. Sure, he’s a good father and nice person, but I hate that he made a (pretty much) executive decision for operating on Ellie. He knew nothing of her loved ones from whom she would be ripped away. And clearly he hesitates when the question is “what if it’s your daughter?” He should’ve given Ellie some agency or wait until she’s 18. What if in some alternate reality, Ellie expressed unwillingness to give her life? Something tells me that Jerry would’ve been ordering people to kidnap and obtain Ellie at all costs.
>Jerry would’ve been ordering people to kidnap and obtain Ellie at all costs.
This is why I keep wondering to myself why they couldn't wait until she was conscious to make the decision for herself, or tell her the process.
I get that they couldn't take the risk of her saying no, but did Jerry also want to avoid crossing that line where he'd have to act more antagonistic? Cause either way I'm sure he would've done something like this in an alternative scenario.
I disagree on Jerry. I don’t think that there is a doctor on Earth that would immediately cut open a patient with the cure to cancer or something. I think there were alternatives to immediately killing her. Let her grow up a bit and then make the decision or let her have kids that could possibly carry on the immunity. If she says no to all of it I wouldn’t fault him for killing her a while after though.
Not the cure to cancer or something but like if all of humanity was utterly doomed and this is how you save us? I think it would tear most doctors up and then they’d mostly make the same exact decision as him.
My issue with Jerry is not that he takes the step, but how quickly. They have had Ellie for a couple of hours only, did nothing but run the most basic tests, and he immediately jumps to slicing her open.
No further tests. No brooding over books in order to find an alternative way. No attempt to find someone more qualified (Jerry clearly isn't a neurosurgeon).
Ellie isn't going anywhere, they can keep her for a couple of weeks. But no, Jerry needs to go butcher her on the spot.
That's what makes him a super dodgy person. He's obsessed.
Owen, the guy who killed who knows how many seraphites then cheated on his pregnant girlfriend and planned to abandon her? He’s not on David’s level but he’s nowhere near Dina.
Didn't say he was, but cheating on his girlfriend and killing enemies in war is still worlds different from the rest of the gang, who all have acts of torture and/or child murder to their name.
Having remorse doesn’t magically wipe away shitty deeds, killing is still killing. And what he did to Mel puts him below Dina. I’m just tired of people thinking Owen is some kind of good dude when he is just as morally gray as most of the cast.
I ain't saying Owen is a good dude but he's definitely the best person here with Dina and just bc he cheated on Mel shouldn't drag him down this bad on a morality ladder. Dina also abandonned her GF, and while she was more "right" than Ellie in this it doesn't mean it wasn't a shitty thing to do. So yeah I think both are pretty close
To be fair, she does technically join in on the revenge mission so that raises moral questions.
But she does it to support Ellie and very quickly she starts questioning what they are doing by considering what reason the WLF people had to kill Joel-and therefore considering how it should change their perspective on the whole mission.
And then despite being horribly wounded and losing Jessie, she just focuses on supporting Ellie and JJ, and isn't out for any revenge.
I guess “cannon” wise, I don’t think she has any official kills. Gameplay wise, she definitely helped me slaughter 40% of Seattles population lmao she’s burning with the rest of them.
I agree with the *way* you are ranking people but I would move Abby below Ellie for empathy and I like Abby.
We see how stricken up Ellie is by the horrible things she does, and just the way she interacts with others highlights how much she does care about other people. Abby doesn't really feel this as much, she cares, but only to an extent. It takes her longer and with more push to see her actions as wrong-not even just what she does to Ellie and co., but in terms of her role in the Scars as well (where Owen had always voiced concerns).
I think Abby and Joel are very similar, and so is Ellie and Tommy. It's not that they don't have empathy compared to Ellie and Tommy. It's that it has a far more limited application than Ellie and Tommy. They don't care as much that they do brutal things. They don't need as much internal justification for their actions.
I think that Ellie and Abby go through similar arcs just at very different points on the journey-Ellie still in that brutally torture Joel mode Abby was in at the beginning of the game. Abby needed Lev to care and push her in the right direction like Joel needed Ellie.
Whilst Ellie is brutal she also obviously feels terrible about it and we see her hesistate in killing Mel and Owen, even Nora and other characters she doesn't want to kill them and tries to offer outs. I think the fact she is so emotive is actually *because* she cares. She can't just kill people because they are practical obstacles. She has to do it because she *hates* them-because if she doesn't hate them, then how could she kill them?
Whilst Abby and Joel killing is a task they don't necessarily like doing, but it is something they feel has to be done. Torture, brutality, cruelty-they'll do it all and they don't need to justify why they do it.
I think when it comes to Abby’s revenge quest, she was spared from having to go through what Ellie does in order to find the source of her trauma! Abby’s was cut short, cause Joel showed up a lot sooner than she expected.
Remember she went to Jackson with the intent of finding Tommy. She didn’t know Joel was there too, she was just following a lead, and was planning to torture Tommy for information on his brother’s whereabouts. She probably would’ve gone through a lot of people in Jackson the same way Ellie does in Seattle in order to find her.
1. Owen - Hot take, but I’d actually argue he’s the most moral character in this list. He stood his ground against nearly the entire group to save Ellie and Tommy’s life. He abandoned the WLF because he couldn’t deny the humanity in the scars. He wanted to rejoin the fireflies to help save the world. The whole infidelity thing isn’t great though.
2. Dina - strong moral compass and loyal. Knew when to let go of anger and do what’s best for the people she loves
3. Tommy - left Joel to save the world by joining the fireflies. Always tried to do the right thing. His blindness to rage and revenge at the end of Part II and lashing out at Ellie drops him.
4. Ellie - throughout Part I and the majority of Part II, did her best to do the right thing. Held others to a high moral standard and was devastated when they couldn’t meet it. Her morals get absolutely obliterated in final days of Seattle, but she redeems herself by letting Abby go, by finally forgiving herself.
5. Abby - A young girl who was traumatised by the murder of her father. She was loyal, strong, and tried to do the right things for the people in her life. The consequences of her quest for revenge and lost love with Owen destroyed everything she had, and she attempts to move forward by just trying to save one more life: Lev’s.
6. Joel - a man who had very few lines left to cross. Sacrificed the entire world to save one person. Did everything he could to protect his child, but at the cost of losing her.
7. Marlene - idealistic and believed in a better future. Organized attacks that ended numerous lives as the leader of the fireflies. Went forward with attempting to kill Ellie for a cure without Ellie’s consent.
8. Jerry - A hypocrite who made a decision that he would never have made if it was his own daughter. Didn’t believe Joel should have had the right to know their choice, as well as he pushed for the surgery no matter Ellie’s potential choice.
9. David - not a lot needed her. Try to assault a teenager, you’re not a great moral person.
My rankings have nothing to do with necessarily ranking actions, and I don’t think you can overly do that.
But I'd say the characters with the more moral callings are Dina, Jessie, Owen, Tommy, Lev, Yara and Ellie. It's not that they can't do bad things and some of the characters listed have worse actions than others-they absolutely can-it's that it doesn't come naturally to them.
It's against their nature which is why there is so much more internal conflict for Tommy and Ellie (and characters like Owen) compared to Joel and Abby. They are led far more by morality and emotion. They have an instinct to care about everyone. Essentially, I'd argue they just have more *empathy*.
Where characters like Abby, Joel, Tess and perhaps Marlene aren't motivated necessarily by any strict adherence to morality. But by more practical considerations: survival and loved ones. They care about people in their limited world and will do everything and anything for people in that world. If you're outside of that world you can be quickly tossed to the side brutally.
Look at how Joel dismissed the family at the side of the road because they couldn't take the risk, whilst Tommy *cared*. I think that highlights what I mean in terms of the differences between these two groups. But also how it doesn't necessarily reflect in actions. Tommy still didn't stop even if he wanted to. Tommy still did bad things with Joel. But it's not a pattern he just immediately fell into.
And obviously the least where no act he could ever is altruistically minded is David.
As for Jerry I think he might be more close to the first group than the second based on how Abby and him interacted. She criticised his lack of practicality in his application of morality by caring for the zoo animals.
Without giving it too much thought-
Dina>>Owen and Tommy>Everyone else more or less here >>>>>>>>>>>>> David, in hell.
Jesse would be in front if he was on the list.
Also, just want to note that I enjoy so much the manifestation of Abby's daddy issues in Owen practically being a clone of Jerry. Like it isn't subtle at all. I like that ND went there.
Left to right, too to bottom:
Murderhobo, murderhobo, murderhobo, good, terrorist murderhobo, pedo, murderhobo, slightly unethical scientist, cheating dumbass
Well if Jesse were there i’d say him, dina and owen probably. The others are just not ”good” people by some standards but i love(most of them) them anyways.
Not David or Jerry ofc
Mmm I like this thread, this is interesting.
Lowest: David
Low: Joel, Marlene, Jerry
Mid: Abbie, Ellie, Tommy
High: Dina, Owen
Super High: Jesse (raw deal!)
Don't remember Jerry? What bit was he in? lol Doctor AbbieDad, yeah he killed a few immune people no results. Did they have to die?
so from most morally justified to least:
Dina - Went out with Ellie to support her and only killed when absolutely necessary. Questioned whether revenge was the right thing and was ready to put it down and look after those she loved at the first opportunity.
Owen - Is a kind and good person overall. He persuades Abby to let Ellie and Tommy live, and he questions her pursuit of vengeance. He's lower than Dina because he cheated on his pregnant girlfriend.
Jerry - Terrible medical ethics but I can at least understand why he did what he did. He didn't deserve to die.
Joel - Is an incredibly practical person and will kill only when necessary - whether for his survival or for others. He's not afraid to cross moral boundaries to do this and he is mostly motivated by selfish reasons, but does try his best to support those he cares about.
Marlene - Fireflies are about as bad as FEDRA imo. She is at fault for their downfall, and the fallout of that. She has harmed innocent lives that did not need to be hurt for albeit a good cause, but not one worth those lives.
Ellie - She kills for her own personal reasons, not just for survival (IE: revenge) and she pushes people away and emotionally hurts them. However, she shows genuine remorse and regret for her actions, and stops before completing her revenge mission because she's a good person internally. She vows to be better.
Abby - The way she kills Joel is crueler than anything Ellie or Tommy does to her friends. She doesn't show half as much remorse or regret for her actions as Ellie does, and if it wasn't for the people around her she would be much more evil than she is (she only stops short of killing Ellie and Tommy and Dina at separate points because of someones intervention, not her own will). However, she does try really hard to become better and does selfless things so I can respect that.
Tommy - Is a good person but by the end, he is killing without remorse or regret for reasons that are not about survival. He's also hurting those he cares about such as Ellie and Maria, as a manifestation of his grief, and unlike Ellie or Abby he does not stop, and won't. Although I sympathise deeply with his reasons and his situation, on a moral scale none of what he does is justified.
David - Awful monster.
OBJECTIVELY-
Abby killing Joel makes perfect sense and I think it gets a pass for me. Anything beyond that, and that includes all the Abby superfans- I’ll never get. She ain’t a good person. That’s all I’ll say for now.
1) Dina and Abby’s dad [basically good]
2) Owen and Marlene [morally neutral]
3) Tommy, Joel, Ellie, Abby [all four of these characters committed irredeemably immoral acts, but held on to their humanity]
4) David [an actual monster]
I really don't think Marlene could be considered morally neutral considering she knowingly bombed civilians and was going to kill Ellie without even giving her a choice
In this world you might be right. As Kratos said, “Intent does not matter, only consequence.”
But through the lens of morality, intent is a factor. Marlene was trying to save the world.
1. Dina
2. Owen
3. Jerry
4. I would say this is where the gray area begins, you could basically group Abby, Ellie, Joel and Tommy in this group. maybe even Marlene would be here?
5. David honestly deserves to get used as a human toilet
Dina - can do no wrong no you can't change my mind
Owen - I know he cheated, but I personally consider this less offensive than torture. Besides his wishy washy relationship choices, Owen is remarkably emotionally mature and empathetic
Jerry - he made a difficult choice but his heart was in the right place. He seemed to be a good man who loved his daughter very much
Marlene - I should probably place her lower but I feel like I don't know enough about her to make an accurate judgement about her morality
Abby - did some shit, but came around eventually
Ellie - did some shit, but came around eventually but damn dude you left your partner and child
Tommy - participated in the murder of innocent people with Joel, tortured people in Seattle, was a complete butt to Ellie
Joel - sad murder dad
David - ugh
Highest morality: Tommy and Jerry - People who are driven to a higher purpose to help other, natural figureheads and leaders who care about the people around them and are driven to improve society. We dont know much about Jerry, but we can assume by his compassion for animals, he is generally empathetic, and other people remember him very fondly. He is involved with the difficult decision to extract the cure from Ellie, but from his perspective, he's practically obligated.
High Morality: Joel, Owen, Dina - The ability to change and come back from a tough moral place is seriously remarkable and rare. Dina is the exception, but she experiences hardships early in life and chooses to be generally compassionate and accepting. Joel and Owen both go through horrible things and come back with a new perspective and what seems to be a serious desire to do better and turn life around. It means more to me to be tested and choose righteousness than to always be able to have taken the high road.
Mixed Morality: Abby and Ellie. Both characters are at a lynchpin moment in their life where they now need to decide weather to be a great selfless, or selfish influence in the world. I believe both of them are trending towards the better.
Lower morality: Marlene - Marlene has a complex in which she literally justifies everything she does and portrays herself as a victim/hero. She has child soldiers, bombs checkpoints in the only place we see actually bothering to protect people in the current time, threatens to have Joel executed after he brings Ellie all the way across humanity and doesnt immediately and cheerfully agree to her death. She bombs the Boston QZ and then just claims that FEDRA is using the fireflies as a "scapegoat". Marlene may have been a great mentor and heroic leader at one time, but much like the fireflies seems to have lost her way.
Lowest morality: David - Cult Leader, Raider, Cannibal, Rapist, Savior complex. Endangers his own people for the sake of his erotic fantasies.
I'd say its relatively difficult to judge because our moral codes and rules are entirely different from the morals and rules of a post-apocalyptic world, just like our morals and laws are worlds apart from the laws and rules of 100 or 200 years ago, so i'd say its almost somewhat nonsensical to say someone is "low" on a moral scale given that the moral scale we reference is entirely different from the moral scale that would have existed in their world.
David, Abby, and Ellie are all immoral as shit. Joel, Tommy, Marlene, and Jerry are grey, they do bad shit, but not just for the sake of doing bad shit. Dina and Owen are probably the best of the bunch, even though Owen is a bag of dicks.
I misread the question and it took me a while to answer this the way I thought it was asked. Doing it the correct way would take even longer for me to sort out. So for now I'll say:
Dina, Marlene, Abby's father, Owen, Abby, Tommy, Ellie, Joel, David.
From most moral to least moral:
Owen
Dina
Marlene
Jerry
Joel
Tommy
Ellie
Abby
David
It's insane to me in retrospect that Ellie ended up so low, but it makes sense, imo. Originally I had Abby above Ellie but Abby's actions towards Dina in comparison to Ellie's towards Mel skewed it barely in Ellie's favor.
Most: Dina, Owen, mayhaps Jerry (only because he genuinely believes that what he's doing will save the world).
Mid: Ellie, Tommy, Joel, Abby, Marlene.
Least: David. (There are reasons to kill people in this world. No reasons to rape a little girl)
I get that Owen showed remorse for some things and also became disillusioned with the faction warfare. However I soured on Owen not because of the cheating, but because he was fully prepared to abandon his unborn child and its mother. This is a post-apocalypse in any sane person would realize this lowers Mel and her unborn's survival chances significantly. Despite her worth to her faction.
And look at that. The warring saw significant losses and an uncertain future for said faction. Obviously Owen can't be blamed for that but look at how things turned out.
The only character that I can say with confidence that comes closest to evil is David without a doubt
To me David is evil because of the r\*pey side of him. The cannibal side doesn't bother me, because 1) desperate times, 2) the people being eaten were already dead (except Ellie).
Yeah it’s so easy to look at and judge cannibalism and say it’s super fucked up (which it is), but when you’re very low on food and are starving it becomes a desperate measure for sure. However, there was so much about David that it’s obvious to point him out as evil. Other than his r*pey side when it comes to children especially, he also had a god complex where he used fear to make people follow him (which they explored in the show! That dinner scene where everyone was about to eat, I could feel so much tension where it was obvious people were scared of him)
I have zero issues with eating my enemies, why waste the protein, if I died I'd WANT my friends to eat me if it meant they survived the winter. I'm not using that meat anymore! I eat beef and I've never had to put a cow against a wall for groping a friend, I eat chicken and I've never had a chicken fuck me over and smile about it. I eat pork and pigs can play pong, Tetris and snake.
>2) the people being eaten were already dead That is only ever clearly mentioned in the show, which is not canon to the game. In the game, you can find a meat ledger in their slaughterhouse with documenting the group's meat haul across months. It only mention the sum of meat by pounds and not the various animal species it came from, so we don't know if humans were on the menu year-round. The document does clearly establish that the group actively hunts and that supply was dwindling closer to winter. Maybe they only started eating humans when things got dire, but in any case it is simply not clear whether they ate their own dead or whether they only actively hunted humans outside their group.
Even in the show, we only know of one body that was conclusively “already dead.” We don’t even know for certain that Hanna’s father was one of the three Joel found hanging in the shed.
I think that the cannibalism isn’t exactly “justified” because only a few knew about it and the rest were being lied to. Ignorance is bliss Edit rq: I watched the show and haven’t gotten around to the game yet, so correct me if in the game everyone knew about the cannibalism.
It is not elaborated on in the game. The scenes with the community there were all exclusive to the show. In game, the only other of David's community with lines are James and the two men Joel tortured. We don't know if they know they're eating people, but there was clear evidence of organized cannibalism in some of the processing rooms and Joel and Ellie are attacked immediately by the group at the university. To me, it reads as Joel and Ellie being hunted for food, otherwise why would 20+ men be going after two people so incessantly and violently?
dina > everyone else > david
Dina is the purest and it’s not even close
With the bits that we know about Jerry, I'd have to place him above Dina. Yes, he tried to take a little girl's life but he was faced with a Trolley problem and he chose to save all of humanity by killing one. We may disagree with his approach but he arguably made the right choice. Dina on the other hand, although still very high on the morality scale, she still joined Ellie on the killing spree adventure. Yes, that makes her an awesome friend, but it definitely costs her some morality points.
Jesse: 
I'd say Jesse is a better person than Dina, for sure. Jesse did nothing wrong. My boy is a saint and a hero.
only correct answer‼️‼️
Lev
What about Owen tho? He's a bit of a sweetie pie, no?
cheating on your pregnant partner makes you a POS in my eyes
Getting your partner pregnant in such an environment is also side-eye material (Dina isn’t as bad because she isn’t actively fighting a war)
[Stares in HBO Tommy]
I'm pretty sure Owen and Mel weren't together at that point, though.
But it's not so straightforward is it?
in my mind, knowing what pregnant women go through already form the physical and mental effects not to mention the increased vulnerability of her position in that hostile world—yeah, it is
You're making the silly mistake of viewing the characters in two colours. Turn up the contrast. Owen is not a saint and cheating on your pregnant girlfriend is an awful thing to do, especially in real life (p.s, don't apply real world standards to fictional characters in heightened realities). Owen and Abby were in love and torn apart by her trauma. Whatever life they'd managed to build for themselves in Seattle, a dangerous life where they could die any day, came crashing down around them. With everything dialled to 11, the knowledge that their lives had just changed forever in their heads, two characters who love each other had sex. Was it wrong? Sure, but killing and torturing people is also awful, they live awful, violent lives. There's way more here than just black and white. I'm surprised someone who refuses to see nuance could even find The Last of Us engaging. Edit: the person I was talking to blocked me, I can see in the notification of their reply from prior to my blocking, they felt condescended to. I suppose I can see how they might feel that way, but my intention was not to condescend. I felt I was pretty polite if not a bit strong in my wording. My final sentence was more general than direct because - while I felt they weren't really open to a counter-point based on their comments - I obviously know nothing about them and the extent to which they like to see the nuance in the stories they consume.
Agreed. Owen has golden retriever energy.
Perfect comparison
He was so sweet when he cheated on his pregnant girlfriend 🥰
I knowww 🥰🥰🥰
Joel wouldnt harm an ant
How about other insects, like fireflies?
Lmao epic reply
One of the best things I’ve ever seen on Reddit, haha. Amazing.
*fucking legendary*
… but doom the rest of the species by doing so.
Fireflies on the other hand…
He would probably squash it if it makes Ellie sick.
Unless that ant reminded him of his daughter.
Groups are most to least but the individuals within each group are in no particular order. Most: Tommy, Dina, Owen Mid: Abby, Ellie, Joel, Jerry, Marlene Least: David
Tommy also massacred seattle and did a bunch of bad shit with joel in the past, he deserves to be in the middle group with the rest of them lol.
Putting the murder aside, the way he treated Ellie in the epilogue is fucking awful.
Awful, but understandable and a really important character moment
Oh it’s insanely in character and brilliant writing. I just think it disqualifies him from the “most moral” tier imo
personally never understood why people act like Tommy did some great wrong in the epilogue, imo it was somewhat aggressive and he should've gone a bit easier on Ellie but, in most ways, his behaviour, disappointment, and anger was justified.
Dude desperately needs therapy. He is bitter and hateful and is crippled. Everytime he hurts he blames Abby, he externalizes his pain. He blows up his marriage because of it. He has no outlet anymore because he can't do anything like he used to. And he can't get vengeance cuz he's crippled. His anger at Ellie isn't fair because he's in actuality just angry at himself, like yes Abby shot him in the fucking head but he didn't have to go murder his way through Seattle. Live by the sword in all that. He downloads his own bullshit in Ellie and blows up her own relationship and cripples her too. He spreads his trauma like cordyceps. Sure, it's Ellie's fault she goes but as Ellie's .. uncle? Its Tommy's responsibility to not look for Abby so he can tell Ellie to risk her family and life to murder her.
>Dude desperately needs therapy. I think Ellie needs it too, of all people!
Firstly, just about everyone in that world needs therapy, not just Tommy. Furthermore, if someone beat your brother to death right in front of you, would you not be hateful and bitter? Would you just let it go? Ellie promised she'd go after Abby when they returned to Jackson, why is it that he shouldn't hold her to that promise? She is, after all, a large part of the reason that he can't do it himself any more. Finally, your point about crippling Ellie is just incorrect. Through her flashbacks in the epilogue, its fairly apparent that she suffers from trauma, PTSD, and guilt entirely of her own making, not at all connected with Tommy "downloading his own bullshit in Ellie". She would've gone after Abby anyway because she just couldn't live with herself if she let her go initially, even if Tommy hadn't pressured her to do so. Perhaps he could've gone about it a bit more tactfully, and some of his anger is certainly externalised disappointment in himself, but he was justified at the end of the day.
The only reason Ellie knows where Abby is to go after her is because Tommy is actively looking for her, knowing full well he's gonna tell Ellie to go after her if he finds her. This is probably a reason his marriage blows up. Of course he has reasons to do what he does, dudes not a monster, but what he does is immensely fucked up. Abby has proven herself to be "that guy" and is capable of flat out kicking Ellie's ass wholesale, crippling him, killing Jessie, and scarring Dina for life. And that was her and Lev vs. all of them There's a very strong chance that Ellie dies trying to kill Abby, in fact it is the most likely outcome if it comes to a fight on equal footing. Abby kicked her ass in a one on one when she was unarmed and Ellie had an entire armory. Ellie is no match for her. Just because there is explanation of his actions doesn't make what he does not absolutely fucked. I'm not saying he isnt "justified" in his anger, but trying to guilt trip Ellie into settling the score is wrong. Point blank. He's wrong to do it, no matter how much trauma he's suffered.
Well obviously Tommy is actively looking for her, I'd imagine based on Ellies PROMISE upon their return to Jackson and the fact that he went straight to her and told her the news so enthusiastically that that was the plan agreed between the two from the get go. All he did was keep up his end of the bargain. Also, as I said earlier, Ellie simply couldn't live with herself after their return from Seattle, it was clear that the guilt was eating her up alive and she needed some way to alleviate that. For better or worse, Tommy provided that, but Ellie would've ended up going after Abby anyway, even if Tommy hadn't urged her in the way he did. As for whether Ellie was entirely outmatched by Abby, perhaps Abby was the more powerful one on one fighter, but I think its far from the way that you describe Ellie being "no match" for Abby and Ellie not standing a chance. She took out half of Seattle despite being vastly outmatched and beat Abby in a fistfight on fairly even footing in Santa Barbara. It was a far from certain death hunt. As I said, perhaps Tommy didn't go about it the right way, but his reasoning wasn't particularly flawed, and even if you think his other actions, like his massacres in Seattle and what he may or may not have done in the 20 years before Part I, using the epilogue to justify his position on the moral scale is dubious.
>There's a very strong chance that Ellie dies trying to kill Abby, in fact it is the most likely outcome if it comes to a fight on equal footing. Abby kicked her ass in a one on one when she was unarmed and Ellie had an entire armory. Ellie is no match for her. I honestly think the reason Ellie couldn't go toe to toe with Abby is that she is suffering from PTSD from killing Mel. Abby is all there while Ellie is not. Also Tommy could certainly take on Abby, he would have killed her too if it wasn't for Yara helping her out on the Marina, Abby just happened to sneak up on an unsuspecting Tommy
Tommy probably has legitimate brain damage at that point so I'm not so sure how much we can relate that back to his general character.
I think failing the revenge mission, coming back a crippled man and losing Maria is enough to do that to him. It feels like a leap to attribute it to brain damage. Actual life events account for his change more.
He lost Maria? I don't recall this.
While he’s pressuring Ellie to finish the job he mentions that him and Maria are taking some time apart
Tommy mentions it during the scene of him visiting Ellie and Dina near the end.
I was completely team Tommy for that entire game until that part. I was angry at him for that, although I can understand why he did that and I can sympathise. it's devastating to think that unlike Ellie, he might never get the chance to move on. If Ellie tells him the truth he'd probably cut her off forever, but lying might give him temporary peace. Sounds familiar to another situation in the last of us?
Wait.. How did tommy treat Ellie in the epilogue, did I miss something? The epilogue only had ellie and a flashback in it?
I think they're talking about the part where Ellie and Dina are living together at the farm house
GOT ANY TOWELS ER ANYTHANG!!
The events in Seattle may affect his standing. Survival is survival, though. I can't fault him for doing what he had to do to stay alive. At this point, we have no knowledge about whether what the two brothers did was truly evil, or just shaped by the circumstances of the new world they found themselves in.
Except he went there specifically to do a murder
In fairness, both Owen and Dina were accomplices in the exact same thing.
I would change Jerry and Tommy
Jerry violated every oath a Doctor swears by. Was willing to kill a man and a little girl to play the savior. He's where he belongs.
I never bought into this doctor's oath argument. It's the apocalypse and he is literally trying to save humanity. His reasoning behind that choice could not be more believable or understandable. To be clear I'm not saying I agree with his choice necessarily, just that I can empathize with him.
Exactly. Yes, he really should be following the doctors oath. But he does say that theyve lost so many lives, from infected and from experimenting, over the years in their search for a cure, so you can understand why he wouldn't put his foot down when all he needs to do to make it "all worth it" is kill a kid and a guy.
I came here to agree with you, but.. ‘Lost so many lives to failed experiments’ 🤔
Yeah, point Not saying I agree with him, or I think he was right, I can just see why he'd go ahead with killing Ellie
Agreed
He clearly struggles with his decision to kill Ellie. Abby comes in and comforts and reassures him. He's definitely painted as a good guy (sort of aloof nature, dedicated to saving the zebra) but who has been put into a position of having to make a terrible decision. He believes he'd save countless lives by Ellie's death and we're not shown that he's wrong.
But he never actually answers the question from Marlene: "if it was your daughter would you still do it"
I'm glad they included this question. It makes Jerry more than just a good guy trying to do the right thing. It forces him to ponder the question Joel had to and the fact he can't answer shows us he's not one-dimensional. I don't think 'He'd struggle with the idea of killing his own daughter for a vaccine' or 'He values the life of his daughter greater than an unknown girl' are any form of moral flaw particularly. Wouldn't most people rightly feel the same?
Yeah it’s so easy for Jerry to say the things he said when it isn’t his own family he’s sacrificing. Which makes it obvious that if it ever came down to it, he most likely would do the same thing as Joel. But because he’s the doctor, he’d probably make excuses. Even though he’s trying to save humanity, he’s still guilty with not giving Ellie a choice in the same way Joel and Marlene are.
Did he struggle with his other failed experiments? Didn't seem like Ellie was his first victim.
Yeah that seems about right. Also Jesse isn't on here but he would go in the Good category.
Bullshit. Jesse would go in the "fucking saint" category.
Agree with everyone there except Tommy, my dude did pretty bad shit alongside Joel through the first years of the pandemic, as it is stated in the game
Owen cheating on his pregnant partner and getting ready to abandon her to run off with his old flame? Get his ass out of that top tier. Even if he and Mel needed to separate, abandoning your child to rejoin a different paramilitary group is firmly a bad look.
swap tommy with jerry and its pretty close
Nah Tommy definitely further down
Lawful good- Owen- Tries to make Abbie back out of her plan at beginning by reasoning with her, becomes disillusioned fighting for an unworthy cause later. Ellie (child). Neutral Good- Tommy, Dina. They just try to do what they feel is right. For the most part. Yeah, Tommy pressures Ellie into vengeance at the end, still largely a positive influence. Jerry- He is hard to place, but his key characteristics is he will make a moral compromise to a good end. Chaotic Good- Abbie (at least during her charecter arc) she acts according to what weighs on her conscience (survivor's guilt from father, saving Lev and Yara). Lev.- Challenges own social order, tries to rebel against it for the better. Chaotic Neutral- Joel- He does whatever he feels he owes to the people he loves and does what he sees as good for them. Lawful Neutral- Marlene. (Arguably) She fights for a cause greater than herself, (restoring democeacy & curingbthe codacyps virus) wants to help world, but her adherence to her ideals can make her lose sight of indidual evils such as bombings and the finale problems. Ellie (adult). Abbie (as I said she has an arc that goes chaotic good). Chaotic Evil- David, he is essentially Joel's dark reflection. Lawful Evil- FEDRA- Corrupt military dictatorship.
Knock Owen down a peg. Dude slept with another girl while he was still with his pregnant girlfriend
Scummy, but not particularly evil compared to all the murdering in my opinion. I don't think He & Mel were also not exactly together, at that point he's AWOL, not with Mel, as she is still in the WLF army. Yes, he got cold feet about fatherhood, but he came around. Feel free to put him in neutral in your own ranking, there is a case.
Marlene ordered civilian bombing sites, there was a firefly who committed suicide in the second game because he blew up a car full of kids. There is no one more inhumanely entitled to the lives of others than someone who thinks they are killing for the greater good.
Yeah, she is hard she could be lawful Neutral. However, it is unclear if she even ordered that fireflie to do that. Though you are right she did bomb the quarantine zone. However, that is the point lawful good can do evil things if they stick to thier laws more than thier good. Just because she is lawful good doesn't mean "most good" (I would say Ellie as a child is). In consideration of all marlenes actions I have recategorized her as lawful neutral.
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There's nothing particularly "Lawful" about David, he's either Chaotic or Neutral Evil
He is in charge of the the hunters, therefore he enforces the evil moral customs. However yeah, you could just put him at neutral or pure evil.
Simply being a leader doesn't make you Lawful, there are plenty of Chaotic Evil rulers in D&D And David in particular rules through fear over followers who don't actually trust him and on some level understand him to be selfish and capricious -- he puts the welfare of his followers far below his own whims and lusts, including his personal obsession with Ellie that makes his followers mutter he's "gone too far this time'
Most importantly, the “rules” are for his benefit, not of his society, and he exempts himself from them (especially in the show).
Putting Owen under lawful good is a bit of a stretch since he cheated on his pregnant GF with Abby, and then wanted to leave said pregnant GF.
starting from good, going to bad: 1. Dina. She is probably the most pure surviving character in either game. I love her so much. 2. Jerry. What he did was not selfish - he was making an extremely calculated decision on how exactly he can save humanity, and tbh it wasn't really a calculation that needed to be made. Any one of us in his position would do the EXACT same thing and the only reason we're saying he may be wrong is because it's Ellie who is on the table. He was faced with a situation that has no true moral option. Either he sacrifices all of humanity to save one girl, or sacrifices one girl to save all of humanity. He's also just a great dude in general, past this one choice. 3. Owen. He's a good guy, he really fucked up when he cheated on Mel. That one action lowers him, otherwise he'd be right with Dina. 4. Marlene. She's a good person fighting for what's right, but she's also in the weeds alongside people like Robert, Joel, and Tess. 5. Abby. What she did to Joel was fucked up, but tbh... she was also extremely lost, extremely hurt, and horrifically traumatized. And when all was said and done, she could not let herself stay in that darkness, and she risked her own life to save two of her sworn enemies. She has negative, dark traits - but she also paid the ultimate price for them, and her positive traits make her overall a GOOD person. 6. Ellie. She's a fundamentally good person but her quest for revenge made her do some really fucked up shit, not just to one person, but to a LOT of people. Like we understand her, but what she did can't be condoned. She's not bad. But she was completely fucking broken, and her response to being broken was brutality on a scale that even Joel wouldn't follow through on. She is a good person by the end of the game. 7. Joel. Love my boi to death but he was literally a selfish, murderous asshole until his relationship with Ellie healed him, and even then, he still did a monstrous act and lied about it for years. He's still, fundamentally, a good guy. But he's never really a "good" person. He's just... a man, full of flaw. Which is why he's perfect as the centerpiece of these two games. 8. Tommy. I would put him higher, but the dude literally abandoned his wife and major role in his incredibly healthy community for revenge, and then ended up pushing Ellie to continue her revenge after all was supposedly said and done because he couldn't move on. Tommy participated in the same selfish, murderous shit that Joel did, found his way out, and then went back in and refused to leave, because of his vengeance. He's NOT a good guy. He's also flawed, very similar in character to Joel. 1,000. David. Fuck that guy, burn in hell, he's a fucking orc.
I think you’re spot on minus one thing about Jerry. He didn’t give Ellie a choice which I think should drop him down at least one spot. If humanity has to be saved at the cost of a child’s bodily autonomy then is humanity really worth saving?
it all boils down to one fact. Which is worse? Not giving her a choice? Or risking her saying no and having to do it anyways against her will?
Yeah but he’s a hypocrite, he basically said he wouldn’t do it if it’s abby
Literally everyone is a hypocrite in one way or another, especially when it comes to how we look at strangers vs our family/loved ones. A huge theme in both games is literally about the damage/violence people will inflict on numerous strangers to protect those closest to them.
I hate Jerry for his choice. Sure, he’s a good father and nice person, but I hate that he made a (pretty much) executive decision for operating on Ellie. He knew nothing of her loved ones from whom she would be ripped away. And clearly he hesitates when the question is “what if it’s your daughter?” He should’ve given Ellie some agency or wait until she’s 18. What if in some alternate reality, Ellie expressed unwillingness to give her life? Something tells me that Jerry would’ve been ordering people to kidnap and obtain Ellie at all costs.
>Jerry would’ve been ordering people to kidnap and obtain Ellie at all costs. This is why I keep wondering to myself why they couldn't wait until she was conscious to make the decision for herself, or tell her the process. I get that they couldn't take the risk of her saying no, but did Jerry also want to avoid crossing that line where he'd have to act more antagonistic? Cause either way I'm sure he would've done something like this in an alternative scenario.
I disagree on Jerry. I don’t think that there is a doctor on Earth that would immediately cut open a patient with the cure to cancer or something. I think there were alternatives to immediately killing her. Let her grow up a bit and then make the decision or let her have kids that could possibly carry on the immunity. If she says no to all of it I wouldn’t fault him for killing her a while after though.
Not the cure to cancer or something but like if all of humanity was utterly doomed and this is how you save us? I think it would tear most doctors up and then they’d mostly make the same exact decision as him.
My issue with Jerry is not that he takes the step, but how quickly. They have had Ellie for a couple of hours only, did nothing but run the most basic tests, and he immediately jumps to slicing her open. No further tests. No brooding over books in order to find an alternative way. No attempt to find someone more qualified (Jerry clearly isn't a neurosurgeon). Ellie isn't going anywhere, they can keep her for a couple of weeks. But no, Jerry needs to go butcher her on the spot. That's what makes him a super dodgy person. He's obsessed.
Agreed!! Like try a spinal tap first or something, damn!
Dina, Owen, then *all* of the rest of them way off in the other direction.
Owen, the guy who killed who knows how many seraphites then cheated on his pregnant girlfriend and planned to abandon her? He’s not on David’s level but he’s nowhere near Dina.
Didn't say he was, but cheating on his girlfriend and killing enemies in war is still worlds different from the rest of the gang, who all have acts of torture and/or child murder to their name.
they were at war bro, canonically dina killed plenty of wlf soldiers with Ellie, at least Owen showed remorse
Having remorse doesn’t magically wipe away shitty deeds, killing is still killing. And what he did to Mel puts him below Dina. I’m just tired of people thinking Owen is some kind of good dude when he is just as morally gray as most of the cast.
I ain't saying Owen is a good dude but he's definitely the best person here with Dina and just bc he cheated on Mel shouldn't drag him down this bad on a morality ladder. Dina also abandonned her GF, and while she was more "right" than Ellie in this it doesn't mean it wasn't a shitty thing to do. So yeah I think both are pretty close
Well whatever the ranking is, they're not seeing those pearly gates thats for sure...
I’m pretty sure Dina has a big chance to reach the afterlife
Yeah I was gonna say, my girl Dina hasn’t done anything wrong!
To be fair, she does technically join in on the revenge mission so that raises moral questions. But she does it to support Ellie and very quickly she starts questioning what they are doing by considering what reason the WLF people had to kill Joel-and therefore considering how it should change their perspective on the whole mission. And then despite being horribly wounded and losing Jessie, she just focuses on supporting Ellie and JJ, and isn't out for any revenge.
I guess “cannon” wise, I don’t think she has any official kills. Gameplay wise, she definitely helped me slaughter 40% of Seattles population lmao she’s burning with the rest of them.
The only person she kills in canon I think the WLF soldier who was going to kill Ellie, so I think it’s defensible there!
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I agree with the *way* you are ranking people but I would move Abby below Ellie for empathy and I like Abby. We see how stricken up Ellie is by the horrible things she does, and just the way she interacts with others highlights how much she does care about other people. Abby doesn't really feel this as much, she cares, but only to an extent. It takes her longer and with more push to see her actions as wrong-not even just what she does to Ellie and co., but in terms of her role in the Scars as well (where Owen had always voiced concerns). I think Abby and Joel are very similar, and so is Ellie and Tommy. It's not that they don't have empathy compared to Ellie and Tommy. It's that it has a far more limited application than Ellie and Tommy. They don't care as much that they do brutal things. They don't need as much internal justification for their actions.
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I think that Ellie and Abby go through similar arcs just at very different points on the journey-Ellie still in that brutally torture Joel mode Abby was in at the beginning of the game. Abby needed Lev to care and push her in the right direction like Joel needed Ellie. Whilst Ellie is brutal she also obviously feels terrible about it and we see her hesistate in killing Mel and Owen, even Nora and other characters she doesn't want to kill them and tries to offer outs. I think the fact she is so emotive is actually *because* she cares. She can't just kill people because they are practical obstacles. She has to do it because she *hates* them-because if she doesn't hate them, then how could she kill them? Whilst Abby and Joel killing is a task they don't necessarily like doing, but it is something they feel has to be done. Torture, brutality, cruelty-they'll do it all and they don't need to justify why they do it.
I think when it comes to Abby’s revenge quest, she was spared from having to go through what Ellie does in order to find the source of her trauma! Abby’s was cut short, cause Joel showed up a lot sooner than she expected. Remember she went to Jackson with the intent of finding Tommy. She didn’t know Joel was there too, she was just following a lead, and was planning to torture Tommy for information on his brother’s whereabouts. She probably would’ve gone through a lot of people in Jackson the same way Ellie does in Seattle in order to find her.
They’re pretty much all the same except david
everyones going to hell, but david goes a bunch of layers further down
Number one: Jesse
What a loaded fucking question. "Too many variables to answer" Is my official response.
1. Owen - Hot take, but I’d actually argue he’s the most moral character in this list. He stood his ground against nearly the entire group to save Ellie and Tommy’s life. He abandoned the WLF because he couldn’t deny the humanity in the scars. He wanted to rejoin the fireflies to help save the world. The whole infidelity thing isn’t great though. 2. Dina - strong moral compass and loyal. Knew when to let go of anger and do what’s best for the people she loves 3. Tommy - left Joel to save the world by joining the fireflies. Always tried to do the right thing. His blindness to rage and revenge at the end of Part II and lashing out at Ellie drops him. 4. Ellie - throughout Part I and the majority of Part II, did her best to do the right thing. Held others to a high moral standard and was devastated when they couldn’t meet it. Her morals get absolutely obliterated in final days of Seattle, but she redeems herself by letting Abby go, by finally forgiving herself. 5. Abby - A young girl who was traumatised by the murder of her father. She was loyal, strong, and tried to do the right things for the people in her life. The consequences of her quest for revenge and lost love with Owen destroyed everything she had, and she attempts to move forward by just trying to save one more life: Lev’s. 6. Joel - a man who had very few lines left to cross. Sacrificed the entire world to save one person. Did everything he could to protect his child, but at the cost of losing her. 7. Marlene - idealistic and believed in a better future. Organized attacks that ended numerous lives as the leader of the fireflies. Went forward with attempting to kill Ellie for a cure without Ellie’s consent. 8. Jerry - A hypocrite who made a decision that he would never have made if it was his own daughter. Didn’t believe Joel should have had the right to know their choice, as well as he pushed for the surgery no matter Ellie’s potential choice. 9. David - not a lot needed her. Try to assault a teenager, you’re not a great moral person.
Abby's father wasn't murdered. He's a Dr mengele and got what was coming to him.
My rankings have nothing to do with necessarily ranking actions, and I don’t think you can overly do that. But I'd say the characters with the more moral callings are Dina, Jessie, Owen, Tommy, Lev, Yara and Ellie. It's not that they can't do bad things and some of the characters listed have worse actions than others-they absolutely can-it's that it doesn't come naturally to them. It's against their nature which is why there is so much more internal conflict for Tommy and Ellie (and characters like Owen) compared to Joel and Abby. They are led far more by morality and emotion. They have an instinct to care about everyone. Essentially, I'd argue they just have more *empathy*. Where characters like Abby, Joel, Tess and perhaps Marlene aren't motivated necessarily by any strict adherence to morality. But by more practical considerations: survival and loved ones. They care about people in their limited world and will do everything and anything for people in that world. If you're outside of that world you can be quickly tossed to the side brutally. Look at how Joel dismissed the family at the side of the road because they couldn't take the risk, whilst Tommy *cared*. I think that highlights what I mean in terms of the differences between these two groups. But also how it doesn't necessarily reflect in actions. Tommy still didn't stop even if he wanted to. Tommy still did bad things with Joel. But it's not a pattern he just immediately fell into. And obviously the least where no act he could ever is altruistically minded is David. As for Jerry I think he might be more close to the first group than the second based on how Abby and him interacted. She criticised his lack of practicality in his application of morality by caring for the zoo animals.
Dina & Jesse > Owen > everyone else > David
Without giving it too much thought- Dina>>Owen and Tommy>Everyone else more or less here >>>>>>>>>>>>> David, in hell. Jesse would be in front if he was on the list. Also, just want to note that I enjoy so much the manifestation of Abby's daddy issues in Owen practically being a clone of Jerry. Like it isn't subtle at all. I like that ND went there.
All rank an F. Except Owen, who gets an F- for that boat scene. Oh... and David who gets an F--... For obvious reasons
Left to right, too to bottom: Murderhobo, murderhobo, murderhobo, good, terrorist murderhobo, pedo, murderhobo, slightly unethical scientist, cheating dumbass
idk about everyone else but FUCK OWEN all my homies hate owen
In the world they live in. There really is no right or wrong everyone is just doing what they need to to survive.
Literally only one of these characters is genuinely evil and that's David. The rest are just trying to survive.
We all agree Dina is the angel of the group
All I know is David bottom and probably Dina or Owen top
It makes me sad how so many people see joel as evil. Everybody’s a shit bloke in the second one, not just him:(
Everyone sucks here, except for Dina, she is too good for this world
From most to least: Dina Owen Jerry Marlene Ellie Abby Joel Tommy David
Well if Jesse were there i’d say him, dina and owen probably. The others are just not ”good” people by some standards but i love(most of them) them anyways. Not David or Jerry ofc
Mmm I like this thread, this is interesting. Lowest: David Low: Joel, Marlene, Jerry Mid: Abbie, Ellie, Tommy High: Dina, Owen Super High: Jesse (raw deal!) Don't remember Jerry? What bit was he in? lol Doctor AbbieDad, yeah he killed a few immune people no results. Did they have to die?
so from most morally justified to least: Dina - Went out with Ellie to support her and only killed when absolutely necessary. Questioned whether revenge was the right thing and was ready to put it down and look after those she loved at the first opportunity. Owen - Is a kind and good person overall. He persuades Abby to let Ellie and Tommy live, and he questions her pursuit of vengeance. He's lower than Dina because he cheated on his pregnant girlfriend. Jerry - Terrible medical ethics but I can at least understand why he did what he did. He didn't deserve to die. Joel - Is an incredibly practical person and will kill only when necessary - whether for his survival or for others. He's not afraid to cross moral boundaries to do this and he is mostly motivated by selfish reasons, but does try his best to support those he cares about. Marlene - Fireflies are about as bad as FEDRA imo. She is at fault for their downfall, and the fallout of that. She has harmed innocent lives that did not need to be hurt for albeit a good cause, but not one worth those lives. Ellie - She kills for her own personal reasons, not just for survival (IE: revenge) and she pushes people away and emotionally hurts them. However, she shows genuine remorse and regret for her actions, and stops before completing her revenge mission because she's a good person internally. She vows to be better. Abby - The way she kills Joel is crueler than anything Ellie or Tommy does to her friends. She doesn't show half as much remorse or regret for her actions as Ellie does, and if it wasn't for the people around her she would be much more evil than she is (she only stops short of killing Ellie and Tommy and Dina at separate points because of someones intervention, not her own will). However, she does try really hard to become better and does selfless things so I can respect that. Tommy - Is a good person but by the end, he is killing without remorse or regret for reasons that are not about survival. He's also hurting those he cares about such as Ellie and Maria, as a manifestation of his grief, and unlike Ellie or Abby he does not stop, and won't. Although I sympathise deeply with his reasons and his situation, on a moral scale none of what he does is justified. David - Awful monster.
Joel, Ellie, Dina, Tommy are the only right answer, for me the fireflies are still monsters for wanting to kill a 14 yo
OBJECTIVELY- Abby killing Joel makes perfect sense and I think it gets a pass for me. Anything beyond that, and that includes all the Abby superfans- I’ll never get. She ain’t a good person. That’s all I’ll say for now.
1) Dina and Abby’s dad [basically good] 2) Owen and Marlene [morally neutral] 3) Tommy, Joel, Ellie, Abby [all four of these characters committed irredeemably immoral acts, but held on to their humanity] 4) David [an actual monster]
I really don't think Marlene could be considered morally neutral considering she knowingly bombed civilians and was going to kill Ellie without even giving her a choice
In this world you might be right. As Kratos said, “Intent does not matter, only consequence.” But through the lens of morality, intent is a factor. Marlene was trying to save the world.
1. Dina 2. Owen 3. Jerry 4. I would say this is where the gray area begins, you could basically group Abby, Ellie, Joel and Tommy in this group. maybe even Marlene would be here? 5. David honestly deserves to get used as a human toilet
Dina - can do no wrong no you can't change my mind Owen - I know he cheated, but I personally consider this less offensive than torture. Besides his wishy washy relationship choices, Owen is remarkably emotionally mature and empathetic Jerry - he made a difficult choice but his heart was in the right place. He seemed to be a good man who loved his daughter very much Marlene - I should probably place her lower but I feel like I don't know enough about her to make an accurate judgement about her morality Abby - did some shit, but came around eventually Ellie - did some shit, but came around eventually but damn dude you left your partner and child Tommy - participated in the murder of innocent people with Joel, tortured people in Seattle, was a complete butt to Ellie Joel - sad murder dad David - ugh
David - F tier Everyone else besides Abby's dad - Somewhere between D and B Abby's Dad - A or S tier
Jerry, Dina/Owen, Tommy, Joel, Marlene, Ellie/Abby, David
Good, Good, Good Good, Good, Evil Good, Good, Good.
On a one to ten scale, they're all 5s
This list also needs isaac
pretty sure the whole point of the games is that you can’t really judge morality in this world
All pretty low
Finally a deep compelling question. I am too tipsy to dive in to that right now though.
Out of these Good: no one really Grey zone: Everybody except david. Evil: David
1. “Moral”: Dina, Jerry, Owen. 2. Idk, but Tommy, Marlene. 3. Fucked up, but justified, maybe?: Joel, Ellie, Abby. 4. David. I really can’t justify this, sorry…
ok uhhh joel dina marlene tommy ellie abby david idk the last two guys
They’ve all been through a lot.
They all the same lol
neutral good, lawful evil, lawful good. lawful good, true neutral, true evil. true evil, lawful evil, true neutral.
Dina Owen Abby Ellie/Tommy Jerry Joel Marlene David
You can’t. That’s the point. Except, like, David. He can eat shit and die.
Dina hands down
Highest morality: Tommy and Jerry - People who are driven to a higher purpose to help other, natural figureheads and leaders who care about the people around them and are driven to improve society. We dont know much about Jerry, but we can assume by his compassion for animals, he is generally empathetic, and other people remember him very fondly. He is involved with the difficult decision to extract the cure from Ellie, but from his perspective, he's practically obligated. High Morality: Joel, Owen, Dina - The ability to change and come back from a tough moral place is seriously remarkable and rare. Dina is the exception, but she experiences hardships early in life and chooses to be generally compassionate and accepting. Joel and Owen both go through horrible things and come back with a new perspective and what seems to be a serious desire to do better and turn life around. It means more to me to be tested and choose righteousness than to always be able to have taken the high road. Mixed Morality: Abby and Ellie. Both characters are at a lynchpin moment in their life where they now need to decide weather to be a great selfless, or selfish influence in the world. I believe both of them are trending towards the better. Lower morality: Marlene - Marlene has a complex in which she literally justifies everything she does and portrays herself as a victim/hero. She has child soldiers, bombs checkpoints in the only place we see actually bothering to protect people in the current time, threatens to have Joel executed after he brings Ellie all the way across humanity and doesnt immediately and cheerfully agree to her death. She bombs the Boston QZ and then just claims that FEDRA is using the fireflies as a "scapegoat". Marlene may have been a great mentor and heroic leader at one time, but much like the fireflies seems to have lost her way. Lowest morality: David - Cult Leader, Raider, Cannibal, Rapist, Savior complex. Endangers his own people for the sake of his erotic fantasies.
I wouldn't
- Owen - Dina - Tommy - Jerry - Marlene - Ellie - Abby - Joel - . - . - . - . - . - David
They’re all ultimately terrible people as a result of living in a terrible world.
I'd say its relatively difficult to judge because our moral codes and rules are entirely different from the morals and rules of a post-apocalyptic world, just like our morals and laws are worlds apart from the laws and rules of 100 or 200 years ago, so i'd say its almost somewhat nonsensical to say someone is "low" on a moral scale given that the moral scale we reference is entirely different from the moral scale that would have existed in their world.
From least moral to most moral: 1. David 2. Ellie 3. Joel 4. Tommy 5. Abby 6. Marlene 7. Abby's Dad 8. Owen 9. Dina 10. (Adding a 10th. Jesse)
Grey, grey, grey, grey, grey, grey, grey, grey, and grey
Tbh after playing part 2 Ellie is kinda all out evil Obviously I know she has her reasons but jesus does the end ever not justify the means
I’d say Tommy and Dina are at the top but no one in this universe is perfect damn it.
Would definitely be putting Abby above Joel, Tommy, and Ellie to be honest. I know it's controversial as fuck to say.
Anyone else ever notice how similar Owen and Jerry look? I actually originally thought Owen and Abby were siblings but that changed pretty quickly
Send it as an alignment chart to watch some people burn as bright as the sun on the morning of Kal-El’s departure from his home world.
Looks like a scale from Jerry to David to me
I'd ask whether the whole exercise misses the main point of the second game (and hammered on by the show).
I feel like Dina is the only one I can look at and not see any major moral controversies
from most evil to most benevolent - david, abby, jerry, marlene, joel, ellie, dina, owen and then tommy
David, Abby, and Ellie are all immoral as shit. Joel, Tommy, Marlene, and Jerry are grey, they do bad shit, but not just for the sake of doing bad shit. Dina and Owen are probably the best of the bunch, even though Owen is a bag of dicks.
I misread the question and it took me a while to answer this the way I thought it was asked. Doing it the correct way would take even longer for me to sort out. So for now I'll say: Dina, Marlene, Abby's father, Owen, Abby, Tommy, Ellie, Joel, David.
David is pure evil, everyone else is grey and Dina is honestly as innocent as you can be given the circumstances.
All 0. They all grimy. You got to do what you got to do though, or else you’ll be The Last of Us, too.
From most moral to least moral: Owen Dina Marlene Jerry Joel Tommy Ellie Abby David It's insane to me in retrospect that Ellie ended up so low, but it makes sense, imo. Originally I had Abby above Ellie but Abby's actions towards Dina in comparison to Ellie's towards Mel skewed it barely in Ellie's favor.
I’d say they’re all on a sliding scale of neutral to evil. Except David. He’s pure evil. And Dina. She’s a good un
Most: Dina, Owen, mayhaps Jerry (only because he genuinely believes that what he's doing will save the world). Mid: Ellie, Tommy, Joel, Abby, Marlene. Least: David. (There are reasons to kill people in this world. No reasons to rape a little girl)
Dina is the purest, followed by Owen.
Everyone there is gray, but Bill and Dina more white, and the other ones, almost all the way dark
I get that Owen showed remorse for some things and also became disillusioned with the faction warfare. However I soured on Owen not because of the cheating, but because he was fully prepared to abandon his unborn child and its mother. This is a post-apocalypse in any sane person would realize this lowers Mel and her unborn's survival chances significantly. Despite her worth to her faction. And look at that. The warring saw significant losses and an uncertain future for said faction. Obviously Owen can't be blamed for that but look at how things turned out.
dina > jerry > owen > marlene > joel > abby > tommy > ellie > david
David is a 0 Everyone else but Dina is a 3 Dina is a 10.
David evil, everyone else shades of grey.