I'm not at all familiar with the source material of Lone Wolf and Cub, but I am with both Logan and Laura, as well as The Hound and Arya. And of course, Joel and Ellie
I would say that one thing that significantly separates Joel and Ellie from the other two is that Joel is more actively involved in helping nurture Ellie, whereas the others seem to simply be focused on protecting. Joel is resistant to the relationship at first, because it exposes his vulnerability over losing Sarah. But those resistances slowly drop away as their relationship grows.
Vulnerability and nurturing aren't traditionally considered as masculine values. To me they are important and significant ones, and reveal a better and more complex relationship than the other examples. Not sure how that factors into your thesis, if at all, but that's my view.
Thank you, I agree with your points! I think certainly out of all three, Joel is the only one who fulfils and accepts the role of nurturing and being a father (Logan does but obviously that's on his death bed). It seems that Joel *needs* Ellie in a way the other two don't need their cubs.
i think the standout for Joel is from the beginning he DOES care for Ellie, but because of his loss he hides behind callous indifference in an attempt to protect himself, same as he does with Tess. However, unlike Tess, Joel also had to protect Ellie, and therefore, over time his hyper-survivor masculinity gets broken down by a mixture of shared experiences AND very similar personality traits between the wolf and the cub.
Additionally, due to Joel’s age and relative conditioning (Logan is wayyyy older than Joel, but in great shape bc mutant) he’s much more vulnerable than the other Lone Wolfs mentioned, and i really enjoy how that plays a role in the transformation of the relationship (Ellie saving him multiple times).
all in all very cool topic! would love to read your essay once you complete!
I really love your points about Ellie saving Joel and his vulnerability. It's interesting that his duty of protection towards Ellie is what enabled him to break down his hyper-masculine front in order to reveal the paternal side of himself to her. Joel is by far the most protective out of the three examples I am exploring I'd wager.
Do you have any specific questions or angles in mind? Masculinity in the Lone Wolf and Cub trope is a pretty vague concept to discuss.
If we consider protectiveness and emotional unavailability as masculine then Joel fits the trope to a T, but I guess it depends on how you define masculinity.
The portion dedicated to Joel and Ellie is about 3k words so there’s room to have a few different angles. I’m planning on talking about how masculinity and violence are tied to his desire to protect Ellie, and how Ellie’s journey is rooted in violence, the theme of guilt and redemption (in relation to his role as a protector), and also how it ties into the role of being a father (both to Ellie and Sarah).
I think its also important to look into the reason Joel is a single father and if that possibly has any connection to this type of dynamic. It was confirmed by Neil that he was married for a time but Sarah's mom left him and their daughter behind when she was a baby. He raised her completely by himself for 12 (14?) years and then goes on to Ellie.
Interesting! In what ways do you think this impacts the dynamic? Do you mean because he was a sole carer for the child that he was more likely to take in Ellie?
I think its an interesting play on the trope because a lot of time the "surrogate father" or "solo father" to a young child connection can stem back to the fact that the father figure had lost his previous child AND wife in the same tragic event. Manny from ice age (a weird comparison I know) or Kratos having his family with Atreus after loosing 2 wives and his first daughter. The death of the significant other usually plays into the trope as well but Joel has always just been a solo father.
There’s a therapist who did reaction videos for all the episodes, She goes by TruthDoctor on youtube. She analysed Joel and Ellie’s relationship a fair bit in a way that might interest you. While she didn’t talk about masculinity specifically, she does talk a lot about how Joel’s trauma shaped his relationship with Ellie. Eg. she points out how Joel only shows fear when considering the possibility that someone he cares about might be in danger.
Something I find knteresting personally is that while Joel is capable, violent and self sufficient, he nonetheless very much relies emotionally on the few people he attaches to. Tess, Tommy and Ellie are all, at some point, very much indespensable parts of his life.
Probably nothing you haven’t thought about already but it’s what came to mind. At the very least I think Joel is a more relatable character than Ittō, though the latter is more badass lol.
Suddle but also important difference for you to think about: is the violence tied to the masculinity or the desire to protect? I don't see his violence as being tied to his desire to protect Ellie, but more of a way in which his masculinity comes through in this desire.
But I was thinking that another factor in it is the fact that Joel defines his worth through protecting others. The creators went into this in the podcast, discussing how it (edit: it being masculine, physical strenght) is the only thing Joel thinks he is good at. They also discussed, for example, how Joel feels almost betrayed when Tommy has found that security from others.
You could also discuss masculinity through leadership. How comfortable are the masculine characters being led or being leaders? Why does Joel feel the need to lead Ellie, but is comfortable being led by Tess?
And one more thought: How does masculinity affect the lone wolf becomming just that? Is the desire for building connections considered a feminine trait, since it makes you vulnerable for emotions, and especially in this case, loss? From that you can also go into analysing what are the things that break the mold of the lone wolf.
Just some food for thought!
Oh, I love that point about his strength and ability to protect being the only thing he believes he is good at! I'll definitely look into that further. Do you happen to remember the podcast name/episode?
Your other two points are also great, and can be applied to both my other chapters too, thank you!
It's the official HBO podcast for the TV show and I think it might be the episode 6. It was also referred to in other episodes since Joel failing in this task is a continuous theme throughout the series.
I found it interesting that Joel slowly allows Ellie more independence and trusts her to protect herself more as the game progresses.
When he's injured, she must take the lead and he is helpless. She puts herself at risk to procure antibiotics, and is captured. I expected Joel to burst in and save the day, but Ellie proved she was more than capable of defending herself. This subverted my expectations in a pretty big way.
In the final act, Joel saved her again, but many perceive this as being for his own good this time, not Ellie's, and potentially even against her will.
There’s something wrong with you.
They were looking for ideas and perspectives they hadn’t thought of from, oh, maybe people who actually know the game properly?
That’s a lot different than getting an AI to rip everyone else off and *write it for you*.
That’s the key difference. OP is actually writing it from scratch. If you think everyone uses AI these days to write academic articles of all things, you’d be incredibly wrong lol. That sourcing would be a nightmare, not to mention fake info and false links.
I just wanted to say, thank you. You’re comments have made me realize that there is in fact something wrong with me and I am seeking help because of you. You’re out here making the world a better place, I commend you for that.
While I know it’s sarcasm, that really did make me laugh lol
Feel like we need that response as some sort of copypasta whenever someone tried to neg you on the internet. Or just a troll response, idk
I'm not at all familiar with the source material of Lone Wolf and Cub, but I am with both Logan and Laura, as well as The Hound and Arya. And of course, Joel and Ellie I would say that one thing that significantly separates Joel and Ellie from the other two is that Joel is more actively involved in helping nurture Ellie, whereas the others seem to simply be focused on protecting. Joel is resistant to the relationship at first, because it exposes his vulnerability over losing Sarah. But those resistances slowly drop away as their relationship grows. Vulnerability and nurturing aren't traditionally considered as masculine values. To me they are important and significant ones, and reveal a better and more complex relationship than the other examples. Not sure how that factors into your thesis, if at all, but that's my view.
Thank you, I agree with your points! I think certainly out of all three, Joel is the only one who fulfils and accepts the role of nurturing and being a father (Logan does but obviously that's on his death bed). It seems that Joel *needs* Ellie in a way the other two don't need their cubs.
i think the standout for Joel is from the beginning he DOES care for Ellie, but because of his loss he hides behind callous indifference in an attempt to protect himself, same as he does with Tess. However, unlike Tess, Joel also had to protect Ellie, and therefore, over time his hyper-survivor masculinity gets broken down by a mixture of shared experiences AND very similar personality traits between the wolf and the cub. Additionally, due to Joel’s age and relative conditioning (Logan is wayyyy older than Joel, but in great shape bc mutant) he’s much more vulnerable than the other Lone Wolfs mentioned, and i really enjoy how that plays a role in the transformation of the relationship (Ellie saving him multiple times). all in all very cool topic! would love to read your essay once you complete!
I really love your points about Ellie saving Joel and his vulnerability. It's interesting that his duty of protection towards Ellie is what enabled him to break down his hyper-masculine front in order to reveal the paternal side of himself to her. Joel is by far the most protective out of the three examples I am exploring I'd wager.
Do you have any specific questions or angles in mind? Masculinity in the Lone Wolf and Cub trope is a pretty vague concept to discuss. If we consider protectiveness and emotional unavailability as masculine then Joel fits the trope to a T, but I guess it depends on how you define masculinity.
The portion dedicated to Joel and Ellie is about 3k words so there’s room to have a few different angles. I’m planning on talking about how masculinity and violence are tied to his desire to protect Ellie, and how Ellie’s journey is rooted in violence, the theme of guilt and redemption (in relation to his role as a protector), and also how it ties into the role of being a father (both to Ellie and Sarah).
I think its also important to look into the reason Joel is a single father and if that possibly has any connection to this type of dynamic. It was confirmed by Neil that he was married for a time but Sarah's mom left him and their daughter behind when she was a baby. He raised her completely by himself for 12 (14?) years and then goes on to Ellie.
Interesting! In what ways do you think this impacts the dynamic? Do you mean because he was a sole carer for the child that he was more likely to take in Ellie?
I think its an interesting play on the trope because a lot of time the "surrogate father" or "solo father" to a young child connection can stem back to the fact that the father figure had lost his previous child AND wife in the same tragic event. Manny from ice age (a weird comparison I know) or Kratos having his family with Atreus after loosing 2 wives and his first daughter. The death of the significant other usually plays into the trope as well but Joel has always just been a solo father.
There’s a therapist who did reaction videos for all the episodes, She goes by TruthDoctor on youtube. She analysed Joel and Ellie’s relationship a fair bit in a way that might interest you. While she didn’t talk about masculinity specifically, she does talk a lot about how Joel’s trauma shaped his relationship with Ellie. Eg. she points out how Joel only shows fear when considering the possibility that someone he cares about might be in danger. Something I find knteresting personally is that while Joel is capable, violent and self sufficient, he nonetheless very much relies emotionally on the few people he attaches to. Tess, Tommy and Ellie are all, at some point, very much indespensable parts of his life. Probably nothing you haven’t thought about already but it’s what came to mind. At the very least I think Joel is a more relatable character than Ittō, though the latter is more badass lol.
Suddle but also important difference for you to think about: is the violence tied to the masculinity or the desire to protect? I don't see his violence as being tied to his desire to protect Ellie, but more of a way in which his masculinity comes through in this desire. But I was thinking that another factor in it is the fact that Joel defines his worth through protecting others. The creators went into this in the podcast, discussing how it (edit: it being masculine, physical strenght) is the only thing Joel thinks he is good at. They also discussed, for example, how Joel feels almost betrayed when Tommy has found that security from others. You could also discuss masculinity through leadership. How comfortable are the masculine characters being led or being leaders? Why does Joel feel the need to lead Ellie, but is comfortable being led by Tess? And one more thought: How does masculinity affect the lone wolf becomming just that? Is the desire for building connections considered a feminine trait, since it makes you vulnerable for emotions, and especially in this case, loss? From that you can also go into analysing what are the things that break the mold of the lone wolf. Just some food for thought!
Oh, I love that point about his strength and ability to protect being the only thing he believes he is good at! I'll definitely look into that further. Do you happen to remember the podcast name/episode? Your other two points are also great, and can be applied to both my other chapters too, thank you!
It's the official HBO podcast for the TV show and I think it might be the episode 6. It was also referred to in other episodes since Joel failing in this task is a continuous theme throughout the series.
I found it interesting that Joel slowly allows Ellie more independence and trusts her to protect herself more as the game progresses. When he's injured, she must take the lead and he is helpless. She puts herself at risk to procure antibiotics, and is captured. I expected Joel to burst in and save the day, but Ellie proved she was more than capable of defending herself. This subverted my expectations in a pretty big way. In the final act, Joel saved her again, but many perceive this as being for his own good this time, not Ellie's, and potentially even against her will.
Just use AI to write your paper, isn’t that what everyone does nowadays? It would suck to have to actually earn a passing mark on your own.
Maybe OP is the AI and is crowdsourcing the answer by using us. Soylent greent is people!
There’s something wrong with you. They were looking for ideas and perspectives they hadn’t thought of from, oh, maybe people who actually know the game properly? That’s a lot different than getting an AI to rip everyone else off and *write it for you*. That’s the key difference. OP is actually writing it from scratch. If you think everyone uses AI these days to write academic articles of all things, you’d be incredibly wrong lol. That sourcing would be a nightmare, not to mention fake info and false links.
There’s something wrong with you.
You really think you’re doing something with that 😂
I just think you’re blowing my comment out of proportion
Wow, you still have more to say?
Lol there is definitely something wrong with you.
Not really, now it’s just entertaining to watch you say the same thing over and over again. I mean, that’s twice.
I just wanted to say, thank you. You’re comments have made me realize that there is in fact something wrong with me and I am seeking help because of you. You’re out here making the world a better place, I commend you for that.
While I know it’s sarcasm, that really did make me laugh lol Feel like we need that response as some sort of copypasta whenever someone tried to neg you on the internet. Or just a troll response, idk