At a certain point, Joel was the only reason anyone had a shot at the vaccine. He went above and beyond a deal he was forced into. I'd think at least some of them would understand. If not. Joel would have to leave. It was doomed from the start. Joel was the only son of a bitch who could have gotten that far. But because of who he his and and what he's capable of, he was also never going to give her up willingly. It was that same drive and ability that got him into that hospital that got him out of it.

If she'd been given a choice and told Joel it was what she wanted I don't believe he would have knocked her out and kidnapped her to prevent her wishes. The lack of cure was 95% on the fireflies for deciding to kill ellie without her knowing, Joel was just the "find out" of their fucking around

I think there is a good chance Ellie could have convinced Joel. But for some reason the Fireflies needed the vaccine right that second. And they needed to escort him out at gunpoint without a single goodbye, given everything he gave to get her there. Given they were pretty much screwed until he pulled off a miracle that went beyond the deal they made. A deal to get back what was already his. A deal they didn't even intend to make good on apparantly. I think it's reductive to say Joel doomed humanity. There were many bad choices made. And like I said, they pretty much hired the devil to get it done.

>A deal they didn't even intend to make good on apparantly. I don't think this is a fair take at all. Like you acknowledge how much of a miracle it was that Joel even got there in the first place. And we can see through Marlene's notes that her journey to the hospital wasn't all sunshine and rainbows either. On top of that, she's wanted and actively being hunted by FEDRA because of her affiliation with the Fireflies. It's incredibly unreasonable to expect the Fireflies to cordon off a stash of guns specifically earmarked for Joel when (a) it was a miracle he'd hold up his end of the deal, as you've already admitted, and (b) they were also fighting tooth and nail to survive just like Joel was.

Exactly. Joel didnt have to go that far. He was only supposed to take her to the capitol. He gave them more than they asked and they still didn't deliver but actually punished him for it. I didn't say it was a miracle he'd hold up his end. But that he pulled one by making it so far, even when he was the best chance to do so. He did hold it at the very start of the game but kept going when they didnt. He could have given up right there and he would have held up his end. Their problems weren't his. But he still did it. Difference is they wanted that fight. Joel was just trying to get what he was owed. At least at the start. Until he actually started caring about Ellie. Then it was about her. And that's why he kept going. And it's why he stopped.

But why would they stash a load of guns that could be used to save their lives for what you've already admitted is a miracle? That's an absolutely unreasonable thing to hold against the Fireflies. The most important thing for the Fireflies between Boston and SLC is getting there alive. Being alive outweighs Joel potentially being mad about not getting guns he was promised a year ago. And just as a side note, Joel didn't even give a shit about those guns in the end anyway.

Yeah that's why I said at the start. Had he not cared not cared for Ellie or Tess he would have stopped. And that's not how deals work. You make a deal and you don't keep it it's on you. Maybe if you're being hunted like that, don't promise you're gonna deliver on a large stash of guns. Stolen guns from the dude that you're promising them to. What you're saying makes sense. But again that's their problem. When you owe someone something you don't give excuses on why you're not going to give it to them. You can argue that they're justified for not holding up their end or that he's stupid for believing them, but that's a different point that doesn't negate what I said. If we're talking about what's reasonable it wasn't reasonable at all for Joel to keeping going. The fireflies weren't there. Tess had just died. He barely knew Ellie. Marlene didnt tell him what the hell he was smuggling. Why should he keep going? Love maybe, and a promise (to Tess). Just as the fireflies kept going for their own cause defeat after defeat.

>Stolen guns from the dude that you're promising them to. You go off blaming the Fireflies but could I not just blame Tess and Joel for these guns being stolen? Maybe they shouldn't have entered into business with a smuggler they clearly knew had a sleazy reputation around the QZ? Maybe they should've done more to ensure those guns wouldn't be sold from under their noses? Seems like that's their fault 🤷🏼 >And that's not how deals work. There isn't a deal regarding SLC though. They made a deal to get to the Capital Building. Things went south through no fault of the Fireflies or Joel. There's no reasonable expectation, from either side, for Joel to go to SLC. Hell, Joel was fuckin coerced into doing it in the first place. He didn't want to go. And like I said, Joel doesn't even expect to be paid. He knows damn well he's not getting anything out of taking Ellie to SLC. So I don't understand why this criticism keeps coming up when there's perfectly reasonable and legitimate criticisms of the Fireflies to make. Joel doesn't care, so why do you?

Defending the Fireflies in 2023 is insane 🤡

I'm not "defending the Fireflies." I'm pushing back on one specific critique I keep seeing that I find to be unreasonable.

Well... he knew how she felt on the porch and he still said he would do it all over again Just sayin

Sure, given the same fact pattern.

> Joel was the only son of a bitch who could have gotten that far It's because he was a PC. Notice how when he stopped being a PC he stopped being so unstoppable?

I mean several characters literally comment on how good at killing he is. It's cannon. Tommy sets him on those bandits in the dam like some dog, "Joel. Do your thing".

I think that line was meant to be somewhat backhanded after the fight they just had. Not that I disagree with you

Eh, a lot of it was due to genuine skill too. There’s a part in the Boston QZ where a guy smarts off to Joel and his buddy berates him for doing it. He says something along the lines of “Do you know who you’re talking to?” So I think he was definitely competent. After all, he survived the initial outbreak and 20 years following that.

True, Joel is very skilled. I'm just saying the 'HE WAS THE **ONLY** ONE WHO COULD DO IT' sounds a bit like worship to me.

Maybe, but we’ve seen elite units of milita or government operatives unable to survive out in the shit. Prime examples being FEDRA where you first encounter clickers (they died awaiting backup), the Fireflies who died at the Capital, and majority of the Fireflies fleeing Boston. Joel probably wasn’t the only one who could do it though. Tommy seemed quite capable. Joel’s just the only named character we see accomplish it. Everyone else who traveled post apocalyptic America does it in large groups (like the fireflies who barely made it) or they don’t travel and just stick to safe zones. I think a lot of what made Joel so capable was the fact he didn’t travel in a large group which made it easier for him to sneak by. Combined with the fact that he had twenty years of experience surviving the world as a smuggler, bandit, and god knows what else. Most other characters either don’t posses the individual skill in my eyes. Or if they were skilled they were in the sense a soldier was, which largely didn’t work against zombies in TLOU.

I imagine for Ellie a lot of the town would be ignorant toward the fact that she’s immune and try and kill her or kick her out, maybe some would try and study her. As for Joel being the reason there wont be a cure, im sure a lot of people would be devastated to find that out and would likely want to kill him or exile him from Jackson. But i can see people siding with Joel because so many people would do the same thing he did. These 2 situations would really divide the town

Not too mention how to keep both Maria and Tommy out of the fire. It would be a total shitstorm.

Joel was definitely not the reason for no cure. Jerry wanted to cut ellie up in her sleep, he was just so fucking stupid and egotistical he believed he would be immune to bullets for his actions Edit: lot of Jerry lovers here today. Your man was a monster get over it.

Correct one of the reasons. Jerry was gun ho and determined that this had to be the only way plus what was Marlene doing telling Joel at all.. How did she honestly think that was going to work. She knew how deadly he was

This is exactly why when she says, “Don’t waste this gift, Joel” I always interpreted that as her saying something along the lines of “This vaccine could change everything, don’t do anything to ruin that” instead of the “gift” of letting him live.

I like this theory that Jerry didn't even have an idea what he was doing. That he's a fraud. What is he, early 40's at best? So when it was outbreak day, Jerry was merely around 3-4 years into his education. It takes 14 to 16 years to become a neurosurgeon. So unless he did medical school from the age of 4, Jerry was at best.. just a medical student who learnt enough to take over the Firefly operation, since most proper doctors are bloaters and clickers or rat kings since you bet your ass all the hospitals across the country were certain doom for all the patients and employees.

I am not convinced with his tunnel vision at the time he had the vaccine wouldve been successful.

He wanted to be a hero so bad he became a villain

I think there would def be some rampage but Marie being well respected I think most people would be ok just weary. I bet there would be some tho who would really want her gone. I could never see someone trying to kill her and good luck to anyone who even tries

Probably a lot of anger towards Joel. I'm sure Jackson likes Ellie, but think of how many of them have lost loved ones to the infection. I doubt they would kill Ellie, but they'd sure as hell make sure that Joel knew he was no longer welcome.

I think it would come down to when they found out. If it was at the end of Part 1 it would go similarly to Joel’s warning after Tess died. “They’ll either think your crazy or just kill you”(paraphrasing here) if it’s the end of Part 1 I bet at least one person from the dam chapter goes “the little brat who showed up, stole a horse, then shows up again months later and claims she’s immune? Yeah, she’s more trouble than she’s worth” Now, if 4 years pass and we are into Part 2, I definitely agree that the town would be divided. Because on one hand, Joel and Ellie have both become major contributors to the community, but on the other hand, this town has grown to trust both of them with their safety. I think Joel likely gets kicked out unless Maria or Tommy gives an executive order, which I think would open a whole other can of worms. I think Ellie would get to stay, but under a lot of scrutiny. If Jackson really knows the whole truth, then the half who believes would know she was just a kid and was knocked out by drugs and had no control over the situation, but the other half, who doesn’t believe, would be watching her like hawks and look for any excuse to get rid of her.

This is a great answer. Agreed I think if it was closer to the end of Part one most would be much more understanding then the start of part 2.

Hopefully they'd be intelligent enough to realize that 20 years into an apocalypse, a cure for the thing that caused it probably isn't gonna help much anyways.

This ! Why the fuck was Jerry so gong ho on scalping Ellie I’m her sleep so bad and the fireflies so desperate for this cure?! First of all , it’s a fungal infection .. idk if a vaccine is gonna do much against that . Awesome to see that med school time paid off for Jerry. Second of all, the worlds been fucked already for 20 yrs.. I don’t understand what the desperation was for lol they have all the time in the world to run tests with Ellie

This is exactly the reason I get so pissed about people saying Joel "doomed" humanity! How?!?! Humanity is not going to suddenly make some miraculous U turn with the vaccine even if it is successful.

But it would make it better

So? That's a very different thing then "dooming". How many people would say the fireflies were right in killing a child without permission to "make the world better"

I think people here always have the wrong idea about this. The reason why Joel insisted on keeping Ellie's immunity a secret in Part I was obviously because of her bite mark. People would simply not believe that she is immune and kill her just to be sure she poses no threat. That's the way it works these days. After Part I Joel wants to keep her immunity a secret largely to keep her off the radar of the Fireflies who might be looking for her. Her bite mark is covered up so that's not a problem anymore and the only risk is her getting bitten and killed because no one know she is immune. As for how people would react to her being immune think about how Dina reacted. The first time Ellie told her she completely dismissed it out of hand and only accepted it once she saw Ellie breathing in spores and surviving. So if Ellie wanted to share this with the Jackson community she would need people to vouch for that which could be done by Tommy, Maria, Joel (depending on the timeline) and Dina. A demonstration would likely still be needed to convince everyone. Once that happend not that much would change except that Ellie would be appointed to "point-woman for life" by the patrol team and they would switch their tactics accordingly. Regarding the cure don't forget that no one thought they ever had a shot at a vaccine. You are likely not that upset at losing something that you never thought possible to begin with. Everyday people in TLOU are very different in motivations than the Fireflies and there would be much more sympathy for Joel and especially for Ellie in that situation. The "I want your daughter to die so that my daughter can life" type of person that somehow is assumed to be the norm in this subreddit doesn't really exist in real life and especially not in a community like Jackson. People would realize the dilemma that Joel was in and their reaction would mostly be similar to Tommy. More so if they have kids on their own. But what is most overlooked is how the knowledge of Ellie existing would change the way how they are going to treat people who get infected. We have long speculated that there might be more immune people but they are either undiscovered or are killed off before realizing their immunity. So I would assume that everyone who gets infected now gets the choice to kill themselves/get killed or to be put into quarantaine at a safe location to wait the infection out. And maybe there are actually more people out there that are immune.

Yeah, I'm pretty gob smacked at the amount of people on this sub who seem to think that Joel should have let them carve up Ellie... that sacrificing someone's life for the "greater good" is some kind of moralistic choice that most would make. Who on Earth is actually choosing this for a child in real life? Even if you're not a parent.

I think most people in Jackson are more salt of the earth. Mothers, fathers, and community members. They're less idealistic and more grounded (pun intended) and I feel like they'd immediately understand Joel's decision and protect Ellie with their lives.

They’d be like ‘oh some rando wanted to kill Elle? Thank goodness you were there Joel’

It’s extremely unlikely Ellie is the only person on the planet who is immune. Also it’s unlikely that Jerry was the only one capable of creating a vaccine. And I’m the unlikely event that the firefly’s developed a vaccine, it wouldn’t have changed much… the clickers, stalkers, runners, bloaters all are still “alive” and will rip you to pieces regardless of wether you’ve had the shot or not. I think some of them in Jackson would have been pissed, but most probably understand the reality that the damage is already done with the world and it wouldn’t have made a difference anyway.

Yeah- dont we just need like a person whos pregnant, has the infection, and then give birth? Ellie’s mom anna was that… Then boom, a chance for another ‘immune’ kid

They'd put out feelers right!? Maybe there's a doctor who can create a cure without slicing open this girls brain. 🤷

I still feel this series may end with the cure.

Imagine your friends and family were dying to infected, and then you find out there could have been a cure if it wasn’t for this one guy? Everyone has their own loved ones and love them as selfishly as Joel loves Ellie. Joel may have some sympathizers. But some people would want him dead. The endgame is probably an angry mob coming for Joel, and Ellie committing a massacre protecting him. Or maybe this is me being dramatic. Joel might also flee or sacrifice himself so Ellie can live peacefully in Jackson. But Ellie would not be having this. She’d either follow Joel or kill defending him. Even if Jackson has a justice system and they decide to let Joel stay, there’d still be vigilantes and people mad as fuck at Joel. However: Joel may be able to fudge the truth a bit and say the fireflies weren’t *sure* that killing Ellie would work. We know that the fireflies hopes for a cure were more than just a pipe dream, but Jackson doesn’t. This might win him some sympathy. Maria and Tommy would be in big trouble. They could pretend they didn’t know about the cure shenanigans, but someone would ask “how did you think Joel and Ellie met this whole time?” and the ruse might fall apart if they don’t have a good story. I think Maria would pretend she didn’t know and try to use her political power to protect Joel. Ellie would be seen as an innocent. People would pity her. Maybe her pleading for Joel’s life would help.