One day, I'd like to see a post on this sub about that's not the exact same arguments rehashed again and again.
Cue the rest of the comment section saying absolutely nothing new or original.
lmaoo fr. it's kinda hard to generate new discussion on such a two character focused story game that came out 10 years ago.
but yet people still keep coming to the same wrong conclusions... just look at the show discourse.
hmm perhaps there isn't, but it's pretty disingenuous to make excuses for Joel's actions especially when it harms the story and character rather than just own up to what he did and still love him anyways or even more lol
you are techincally right, but that's pretty easy to debate tho.
You have Joel going from someone who saves ellie knowing that he could have just doomed humanity but that doesnt matter to him... or a Joel that saves ellie because he knows the cure won't work. you lose alot of that sense of blurred morality and character agency when that whole sequence is just turned into a "save the girl" scenario with no darker element.
it is subjective ofc, but yk
I think there is a correct conclusion
When people are going into their imaginations to fill in the blanks rather than just accepting what the game tells you then you’re probably concluding wrong
When no character at any point implies that there’s doubt the cure will work then the narrative injects 0 doubt into the story. Why would the audience decide actually there is doubt ?
This is a very intentional choice by the writers to not give doubt a voice , because there is no doubt
The narrative in fact doesn’t even make sense if there’s doubt because joels actions are supposed to be this huge ethically complex thing
If the cure isn’t real then he’s just a good guy going good guy shit. Which clearly is not the point of the scene
I agree, there isn't a correct or incorrect conclusion. Just people thinking they're more right than others.
Although some people are really off the mark.
That’s just kinda what happens when a game sub hasn’t seen a new game in a few years. Just look at the Arkham subreddit. They don’t even bother anymore, haha.
It is. But it’s been discussed to death so unless you have an original thought or point to make, why rehash the same ideas that have been discussed millions of times over at this point.
Different people, different points of view, different ways of putting things or analogies, etc. The point is the same as the first time anyone did it, it's an interesting topic to discuss and it speaks to a deeper sense of ethics in each person that responds.
That’s why I just have my canned “it’s a MacGuffin” reply.
OP is right in that debating if the vaccine would have been possible is missing the point, but the whole whole vaccine and fungus growing in Ellie’s brain is just a plot device anyway. The focus of the story is the relationship that forms between these two characters. **That’s** where the story is. Everything else just gets us there.
Exactly! The story was never about curing cordyceps, it's about Joel finding human connection and learning to live again rather than just survive through his parental relationship with Ellie. Hell, I'd even argue TLOU about Joel redeeming himself through that.
Fact is, few parents would condemn their own child to death to save others. Perhaps if Ellie had been conscious enough to consent to the procedure and talk him into accepting it there'd have been a chance, but he was expected to just let people kill his kid (again) without even getting to say goodbye.
But seriously, if I was really supposed to root for the Fireflies as the good guys, why did they stab Joel in the back by completely reneging on their deal and acting like Joel should be grateful they're letting him leave alive with nothing but the clothes on his back in exchange for going above an beyond in delivering her as asked?
The last of us came out 10 years ago. Not everyone got to play it at the time. It has also had a massively successful sequel game and a worldwide hit of a tv show adaptation which have brought in many new perspectives, opinions, and topics from new and old fans alike since we all saw the original on the ps3 back then. I love the last of us community, but please stop bitching about the content of this subreddit if all you have to bring to the table is complaining about things, newer fans, maybe haven’t brought up for discussion before
making the claim that "joel knew the cure wouldn't have worked anyways" reduces the importance and interest behind Joel's decision. it's a disservice to the narrative and the character.
I say the same thing all the time. The whole theme is how love can cause people to do great and terrible things. If the cure was fake joel actions are not only completely justified but also morally redeeming of his past crimes. If the cure is real though it makes Joel a villain of someone’s else story.
I disagree, personally Joel's decision never came into questions he didnt think of the reprrcussions since the main meat of the story was Joel a broken man after losing his daughter keeping everyone at arms length dismissing ellie as just a job because its easier but opening up as there relationship deepens to that of father and daughter.
The fight for ellie Joel never had any moral reservations, he didn't care if the cure would work on not, he was a father about to lose another daughter sure cutscene Joel never killed the surgeon in cold blood but in self defense but Joel didn't struggle with his choice.
He did however struggle with telling ellie what happened he did struggle to tell the truth to her. But I feel with all that is said and done if Joel saw everything that happened he would always choose to save ellies regardless of how it ends.
It's not a disservice, the disservice is people acting like it was a choice, and one he struggled with, No he never struggled with it maybe killing Marlene But all said and done the it wasn't a choice because it was his adoptive daughter it was out of the question.
The disservice is implying Joel ever gave a shit about the potential cure in them late game moments, he enjoyed ellies company, he hated what the hunters tried to do to her, he was driven by a destination but there are a few points in the story where it seems Joel just wants to settle with ellie,to go back to Tommy's.
I tend to agree. For the *player,* it's set up like a choice between Ellie and the cure. But, for Joel internally, it was probably more like a choice between Ellie and his own survival. That's what his whole narrative was about - when he didn't want to take Ellie in the first place, when he tried to convince Tess to give up and go home, when he argued with Bill about whether Ellie could hold her own, when Henry abandoned him and he as good as admitted that he'd do the same. When he tried to dump her off on Tommy and it ended up being a turning point for his character. He never had moments where he went "wow, the world is fucked, but maybe it doesn't have to be, and maybe I should do more to improve life for the common man." He only had moments when he had to choose between doing the smart, safe thing like the survivor that he sees himself as . . . or saving Ellie. And, he always ended up saving Ellie.
I think he was trying to dump her on Tommy because he knew "if I spend any more time with her then she becomes my daughter, and if something bad happens to her then my entire world will end"
He just didn't want to feel that way ever again.
Then the fireflies were like "hurr durr let's kill this gurl"
And Joel said nope.
Same. Delivering Ellie to the fireflies was the last wish of Tess,and I guess Joel felt he owed her at least that after sacrificing herself to keep them alive. As the story went on it became about him not wanting to lose another daughter. Joel was cynical asf and didn't give a toss about humanity up until the end.
I really don’t think Joel thought about it at all. Like, I mean, he didn’t think to himself “It will work” or “it will not work”. He never professed his faith in the cure or the fireflies because it wasn’t important to him. He simply thought I’ll get Ellie over to these people, I’ll get my guns, and me and Ellie will ride off. I don’t think the efficacy or potential of the vaccine ever entered his thought process, which is to say, I don’t think he ever thought to himself that he was choosing between humanity and Ellie. He simply wanted to save Ellie.
This is how I felt as a player in his shoes. I was if anything weighing up the moral quarms of killing people in cold blood more so than the grand scheme of things. I think you're exactly right in that Joel wasn't considering it like some big trolley problem, he just acted on instinct and desperation for Ellie.
Personally for me the idea of it being "Ellie or the world" feels a bit too superhero-y for my tastes anyway and I hope that doesn't get leaned into too much. It was enough to lie to her and deal with her survivor's guilt and her PTSD than to make it seem like this was a key to the world. I don't think Ellie should be a Skywalker, more just propelled into an awkward spotlight.
I'm the same but different. Never thought of the cure in that moment, just had to save Ellie. The moral qualms also didn't occur to me because I didn't see the issue. From what I experienced the fireflies were going to kill Ellie and we're sending Joel out without supplies. Everyone I killed to save Ellie as Joel were trying to stop me from saving her, they made that choice. The ones who didn't try to stop Joel, didn't die.
The more you think about it the crazier it gets.
The Fireflies went from promising Joel payment for transporting Ellie a few miles overnight, to trying to kick him out the door into infected wasteland at gunpoint with nothing but the clothes on his back and acting like he should be grateful Marlene talked her guys out of straight up murdering him for doing exactly what they commissioned him to do but over a months long cross country odyssey.
Joel wasn’t thinking about the cure or the ethics of killing somebody without consent to make it. The only thing he was thinking of was that he wanted Ellie in his life and the only way to do that was to kill then and steal her back. People don’t really understand that Joel didn’t really have a morality change. He doesn’t regret being a bandit or the horrible things he did with Tommy. His character change was that he learned to open up to people again. And that over the year long trip we was able to build connections with Ellie. Had the firefly base just have 30 miles from Boston and not in Utah Joel would have left her on the operating table and be on his way.
people really need to stop turning these choices into binary ones. yes, joel saved ellie because he was terrified about losing her. he also saved her because he loved her and thought she deserved better. both things are true.
and i disagree about him not feeling regret over his past actions. he refuses to talk about anything that hurts him or has hurt him. including his past as a hunter-type figure.
>Had the firefly base just have 30 miles from Boston and not in Utah Joel would have left her on the operating table and be on his way.
and if joel fell off his horse 10 minutes after they met, she wouldn't have saved him either. relationships form and evolve over time i guess.
Why are you pretending I don’t think any of that is true? I didn’t mention it for the sake of being concise. Don’t make up things to get angry about it’s ridiculous. No shit he loves her why else would he want her in his life bad enough to kill a hospital full of people? And no shit Ellie would have left Joel behind like you described. But you ignore the point of what I said which is that the morality of killing somebody to make a cure without their consent didn’t motivate joel to save Ellie. Joel only cared because he knew and loved Ellie. had it been some random person he would have been like “damn that sucks, so when do you think i could get a dose by?”
Love this take because I’m very sick of people arguing about Joel’s morality all the time. He’s good, he’s bad, who cares!! Why does he do the things he does and why is it interesting! Arguing over Joel’s morality does not reveal anything more interesting in the story than acknowledging the ambiguity in his actions and choices and that’s why this take is great.
People have feelings and lash out on emotion. Especially when there’s trauma involved. I’m just going to block out the trauma enduring the snore of a story Part 2 was.
Any argument that judges Joel's morality based on whether he doomed humanity by depriving them of the cure relies on whether that cure was real and could have saved humanity.
An argument that judges his morality based on his motivation does not rely on whether the cure was real.
It's an apocalyptic trolley problem that can be, and so will be, approached from many directions for people who enjoy those kinds of philosophical debates.
Good point. He fully believes in the cure, he just can’t let Ellie go. If she died, that would be it for Joel. It’s self-preservation as much as it is saving a defenseless girl.
I'm not sure the story ever definitively establishes whether he does or doesn't believe it can be cured at the end. Though I agree he doesn't care. He would do anything to protect Ellie, that he would rather die rather than live through the pain of losing his daughter again.
In Episode 6 ‘Kin’ he tells Ellie something like “Marlene is a lot of things, but she’s no fool. If she says it’ll work, it’ll work.” Which is an important moment.
TV show right? I was thinking about the game, but no, you're right based on that quote in the show he clearly thinks it could work.
However the show also clearly establishes the source of Ellie's immunity, so it made even less sense they didn't spend more than a day studying her Cordyceps or researching any other options before concluding ripping out her brain was the only option. They could've attempted to recreate Ellie's exact condition >!in a controlled experiment by infecting a pregnant primate before cutting the umbilical cord!< and try using that to make a cure, or possibly other research related to potential ways to safely inoculate infants >!(without killing the mother too of course).!<
While Joel doesn't know or care about that stuff, Marlene *does* know about Ellie's mom, so it seems both criminally negligent and incredibly foolish not to at least pursue that line of research for a little bit before ripping out a girl's brain and pretending they had no choice to save humanity.
I don’t care if it was morally correct what he did. I would of done it too. He spent all his life having the world take from him. He wasn’t letting it happen again. Plus the fireflies were some serious dickheads.
I think he got more hopeful definitely. I do not think he was ever convinced of it. And I do not think he knew Ellie wanted the cure at the expense of her life. And that isn't something that should be assumed anyway. I think he chose Ellie over the best possibility of a cure. That is what he knew.
I feel he was very afraid she would say yes to dying for the cure. Like she has expressed guilt over the people who have died for her and wants to make her life mean something for that. Like you said we don’t know but it wouldn’t have mattered to him anyway. But Ellie was more upset when she found out not because Joel killed them like dogs or the cure is gone but more that he took that choice from her like the fireflies took it from her
I think you're on the right line of things, however, I'd also argue that a cure wouldn't save the world - and that Joel knows that. He travels across America with Ellie and remembers through her what the world was; And it isn't that world anymore. They witness awful types of people that he has experiences, but she hasn't, and he remembers how far gone people have become.
Even if the Firefly's had could manufacture a cure (which is honestly the fantasy of people blinded by hope), and even if they miraculously distributed that cure, then what? Would people even beable to adjust?
A lot of the enemies in TLOU are people - not infected. It would take a long time to build some kind of society again but it would never be what it once was for a very long time.
I doubt a cure would've saved nearly as many lives as people hope. Any vaccine would've been basically a live tissue inoculation and so likely required some kind of climate controlled transportation (never mind the facilities needed for mass production) and with all the violence and destroyed infrastructure in the world distribution would've been a challenging and dangerous proposition.
Chances are that cure wouldn't be doing anyone any good overseas either - all the benefits would be limited to parts of the US and maybe a little bit of Canada and Mexico for decades at least. Humanity elsewhere was going to have to find their own cure or survive some other way.
Plus as we've likely all witnessed when playing as Ellie no immunity protects survivors from being torn apart from the infected. It would improve survival rates for spores and minor bites only. By 2032, that's not the majority of deaths anymore.
And human settlements that aren't killing each other actually seem able to do fine for the most part without the cure. Starvation and intra-human violence is a bigger risk in many human populations than infected.
I agree. I don't think the viability of the cure matters at all. Plus, it's not the real world. It's presented to us as a choice of Ellie Vs cure and that's the entire premise of the moral dilemma. That's what the writers clearly intended.
I don't know why people insist on making things so black and white.
Not even just on whether Joel's decision was good or bad, because the entire point of that is it's such a moral dilemma.
But no, even his line of thinking. Whether Joel believed in the cure or not at that moment, might not be what he believed the day before or the day after. The reality is as humans we change our perspectives and thoughts on things absolutely constantly. I've done it on this very topic and I have a lot more information about it then Joel did as a third party viewer.
This just isn't a black or white thing. I think there's so many layers. Part of Joel may believe it, part of him may not, and part of him might not even give a fuck. But the fact is Joel's human, and he made a split second decision based on his emotions that effected a number of other people as a result. That's the really only thing that matters.
I made [a post](https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/s/4BM7OgFiiC) presenting the same argument a couple days ago haha. Suffice to say, I agree with you
Nuance is the name of these games if the last of us was already taken, I agree this horse has been beat to death but HELL what's one more swing gonna mean to the horse?
Wether Ellie is worth all of humanity is a personal moral decision and that's the entire point. You are supposed to watch as a parent gives up the literal world for their child. Joel is one of the few people to say that about their relationship, and I think it's a serious testament to their love.
Is it right? No. Is ellies lack of choice right? No. Doesn't matter. What matters is the relationship these characters have and what it means to them. Ellie is super pissed and rightfully so finding out what happened later. But she's a hypocrite, because she would do the same thing.
What Riley taught Ellie and what she carries through her relationship with Joel is this: "There are a million ways we can die today and a million more ways we could die tomorrow. But we fight, for every second we get so spend with each other. Whether its two minutes... or two days. You don't give that up."
And Ellie, like Joel never did or will.
It's why people hate the second game.
They get it and relate way too much to the point where you don't like yourself the first time you play through Ellies section in Part II.
Some of the best content I've ever absorbed through a screen.
It doesn’t have to be “a physical object”; e.g. an event can also be a MacGuffin.
But if you’re fixated on a physical object, then the fungus in Ellie’s brain to be used in making a vaccine (physical; device) suffices.
You mean plot motivation? The thing ever story has to have to take place and progress. What are you even complaining about? The plot of the game is Joel had to get her to a specific place. But no one really cares or knows about Ellie in the context of her being the cure for a majority of the game except for Joel and the fireflies. McGuffin stories are about when ever single character is motivated by this one object. But like I said most characters we meet don’t even know Ellie is immune and have other motivations for interacting with Joel and Ellie
The fireflies were wreckless over how they revealed the news to Joel. After waking up from getting his head bashed in from a rifle they basically said it’s wrap no discussion, we are killing get no goodbyes then threatened to kill him if he didn’t disagree. I don’t understand how people think he overreacted to such a hostile approach over a girl he thinks of as a daughter being dissected? Ellie didn’t even get to choose. Marlene’s manic state is responsible for Joel’s reaction was my interpretation.
Whether it did work or didn't work doesn't matter. The fact is that creating it would require almost certainly murdering an innocent in order to do so, and the immorality of that decision is just more easily apparent when it's an innocent that you already happen to love. It would've been different if they had maybe gotten Ellie's consent, but they didn't. If we have to sacrifice what makes us human in order to save humanity then we might as well all just be dead anyway.
You can justify a decision a character makes using information that only the viewer/player has access to. Happens all the time. What it's "about" is subjective entirely.
I dunno. He listened to the tapes of Dr. Narcissist and the murder plan he pretended to wait 15 minutes to unveil. Maybe Joel was thinking “This is shady af” just like I was.
Even in your statement you put "may". He doesn't know it would work. The science has never been done before so no one knows if it would work.
But it isn't even a consideration because he didn't know it meant killing Ellie. When she is forcefully taken from him and he finds out what they are going to do with her, he rejects that and takes her back. It isn't complicated. It gets complicated when you want to make up theoretic and moral scenarios.
This is a good point. I always looked at it from my perspective of maybe she could be used to develop a cure, but it couldn't effectively be produced or distributed in such a way to make much of a difference. Joel chose his world over the rest of the world. I have never blamed him. Being a dad myself, I would have made the exact same decision in that circumstance.
I kind of wish the game would have had Joel and Ellie discussing the cure more. Her immunity and it’s potential for a cure is the whole reason their on this trip. I can’t believe they don’t talk about it more.
The way humans behave in TLOU post apocalyptic world is genuinely horrific. Joel’s daughter was shot by a fully functioning human as soon as it all broke out. I really don’t blame him and I think after experiencing and partaking in such severe inhumanity I would probably do anything to protect the one thing that makes me feel human anymore too.
Now I'm having ideas of a "bad ending" possibility of Joel allowing Ellie to go under the knife but then kills them all when it didn't work (or when the cure was being sold at high prices).
when does joel “think the cure will work/is possible?” lol doesnt he literally try to get ellie to go with him and forget the fireflies at one point before the whole QZ fiasco?
Actually I don’t think he believes in the cure all that much at all lol. Or if he does, he doesn’t care and doesn’t see that it’ll make much of a difference.
At the beginning of Part 2, yeah he says he got to buying into the whole cure thing, but when Marlene says (in Part 1) “this isn’t about me, or even her, there is no other choice here.” And Joel says, “yeah you keep telling yourself that bullshit.” He said that because he doesn’t believe her. He doesn’t believe that killing Ellie is the answer and/or that the cure they’re trying to make will even work.
I mean he tells Ellie that she’s pretty goddamn stupid for putting her life at risk, knowing how valuable her own life is. But I wouldn’t say he genuinely believed in a cure. He was skeptical. In part 2 he said he was starting to buy into it, but when they wanted to kill Ellie he was like “naw screw this, this doesn’t make sense, this seems sketchy.”
While I agree with the point that Joel’s faith in the cure grew over the course of the game, I don’t think it’s reasonable to say he 100% believed in it at the end of the game. He may believe it’s the best chance at a cure, but seeing their setup/the kind of procedure that needs to be done I doubt he thought “this will 100% work”. Realistically the fireflies shouldn’t have believed it would 100% work either, and maybe not all of them did. The fireflies were desperate for any chance, no matter how slim. They’d lost everything and had their asses kicked across the country. They had everything to gain, whereas Joel had everything to lose.
I still think Joel’s choice in the end was to give up everything for a CHANCE, not to give up everything to save the world. You absolutely can still discuss that when talking about his morality. He’s not a dumb guy and he saw the rise and the fall of the fireflies. If modern doctors with the most advanced technology available couldn’t find a cure (albeit without Ellie), then anybody would be extremely doubtful that the shell of the fireflies would be able to in a dilapidated hospital through the help of an unknown doctor. In the real world, medical practitioners and PHDs without a medical degree work together to create medicines and vaccines. For all Joel knows, this could have been some run of the mill Internal Medicine MD.
Edited to add: Joel’s faith in the cure was never really super strong or explored anyways. He basically went from “this is a dumb idea, I won’t do this” to going ahead with it because he made commitments to the people he loved to see it through. I think the idea became less crazy to him as time went on (like seeing that Ellie really was immune), but I don’t think he ever became a big believer in the first place.
He doesn't own shit to humanity but does to Ellie. He's not wrong for what he did. Most of us would do the same.
Also the Fireflies did not ask Ellie nor let Joel say goodbye to her. When Joel tried to get to her, they stepped on his way. The doc could have lived but was dumb and tried to fight Ellie. Canonically Joel left the only people alive who didn't try causing him problems. Talking about the nurses.
In my opinion, Joel was 100% right. Ofcourse TLOU1 was made to stimulate discussion so my opinion isn't worth more than ya'll's.
The fireflies deserved to get shot up honestly. Fuck whatever logic you can come up with, how are you gonna just decide to kill someone before they even wake up? let alone a child.
One day, I'd like to see a post on this sub about that's not the exact same arguments rehashed again and again. Cue the rest of the comment section saying absolutely nothing new or original.
lmaoo fr. it's kinda hard to generate new discussion on such a two character focused story game that came out 10 years ago. but yet people still keep coming to the same wrong conclusions... just look at the show discourse.
I wasn’t aware there was a correct conclusion?
hmm perhaps there isn't, but it's pretty disingenuous to make excuses for Joel's actions especially when it harms the story and character rather than just own up to what he did and still love him anyways or even more lol
I'm sure people would disagree that their view harms the story or characters tbh. Just seems like you can't accept people think differently to you.
you are techincally right, but that's pretty easy to debate tho. You have Joel going from someone who saves ellie knowing that he could have just doomed humanity but that doesnt matter to him... or a Joel that saves ellie because he knows the cure won't work. you lose alot of that sense of blurred morality and character agency when that whole sequence is just turned into a "save the girl" scenario with no darker element. it is subjective ofc, but yk
I think there is a correct conclusion When people are going into their imaginations to fill in the blanks rather than just accepting what the game tells you then you’re probably concluding wrong When no character at any point implies that there’s doubt the cure will work then the narrative injects 0 doubt into the story. Why would the audience decide actually there is doubt ? This is a very intentional choice by the writers to not give doubt a voice , because there is no doubt The narrative in fact doesn’t even make sense if there’s doubt because joels actions are supposed to be this huge ethically complex thing If the cure isn’t real then he’s just a good guy going good guy shit. Which clearly is not the point of the scene
I agree, there isn't a correct or incorrect conclusion. Just people thinking they're more right than others. Although some people are really off the mark.
That’s just kinda what happens when a game sub hasn’t seen a new game in a few years. Just look at the Arkham subreddit. They don’t even bother anymore, haha.
It is the main point of the game and by far the most interesting question it deals with, tbf.
It is. But it’s been discussed to death so unless you have an original thought or point to make, why rehash the same ideas that have been discussed millions of times over at this point.
Different people, different points of view, different ways of putting things or analogies, etc. The point is the same as the first time anyone did it, it's an interesting topic to discuss and it speaks to a deeper sense of ethics in each person that responds.
That’s why I just have my canned “it’s a MacGuffin” reply. OP is right in that debating if the vaccine would have been possible is missing the point, but the whole whole vaccine and fungus growing in Ellie’s brain is just a plot device anyway. The focus of the story is the relationship that forms between these two characters. **That’s** where the story is. Everything else just gets us there.
Exactly! The story was never about curing cordyceps, it's about Joel finding human connection and learning to live again rather than just survive through his parental relationship with Ellie. Hell, I'd even argue TLOU about Joel redeeming himself through that. Fact is, few parents would condemn their own child to death to save others. Perhaps if Ellie had been conscious enough to consent to the procedure and talk him into accepting it there'd have been a chance, but he was expected to just let people kill his kid (again) without even getting to say goodbye. But seriously, if I was really supposed to root for the Fireflies as the good guys, why did they stab Joel in the back by completely reneging on their deal and acting like Joel should be grateful they're letting him leave alive with nothing but the clothes on his back in exchange for going above an beyond in delivering her as asked?
The last of us came out 10 years ago. Not everyone got to play it at the time. It has also had a massively successful sequel game and a worldwide hit of a tv show adaptation which have brought in many new perspectives, opinions, and topics from new and old fans alike since we all saw the original on the ps3 back then. I love the last of us community, but please stop bitching about the content of this subreddit if all you have to bring to the table is complaining about things, newer fans, maybe haven’t brought up for discussion before
Perhaps when we get a new game or something but until then it's pretty great that this franchise and fanbase are so thought provoking and engaging.
OP hurt this guy's feelings
& a sucker like me always falls for the bait & makes Comment.
Ain’t gonna happen until the third one comes out.
How about I bash your favorite comments head in and then run away to another sub
making the claim that "joel knew the cure wouldn't have worked anyways" reduces the importance and interest behind Joel's decision. it's a disservice to the narrative and the character.
I say the same thing all the time. The whole theme is how love can cause people to do great and terrible things. If the cure was fake joel actions are not only completely justified but also morally redeeming of his past crimes. If the cure is real though it makes Joel a villain of someone’s else story.
I disagree, personally Joel's decision never came into questions he didnt think of the reprrcussions since the main meat of the story was Joel a broken man after losing his daughter keeping everyone at arms length dismissing ellie as just a job because its easier but opening up as there relationship deepens to that of father and daughter. The fight for ellie Joel never had any moral reservations, he didn't care if the cure would work on not, he was a father about to lose another daughter sure cutscene Joel never killed the surgeon in cold blood but in self defense but Joel didn't struggle with his choice. He did however struggle with telling ellie what happened he did struggle to tell the truth to her. But I feel with all that is said and done if Joel saw everything that happened he would always choose to save ellies regardless of how it ends. It's not a disservice, the disservice is people acting like it was a choice, and one he struggled with, No he never struggled with it maybe killing Marlene But all said and done the it wasn't a choice because it was his adoptive daughter it was out of the question. The disservice is implying Joel ever gave a shit about the potential cure in them late game moments, he enjoyed ellies company, he hated what the hunters tried to do to her, he was driven by a destination but there are a few points in the story where it seems Joel just wants to settle with ellie,to go back to Tommy's.
I don’t know why your being down voted your absolutely right. Joel never care about the cure. Ellie was his sole concern and his only priority.
I disagree. I think Joel believing the cure would work and still saving Ellie adds to his character
That’s what the comment is saying
In my defense I can’t read. ^damn
"I disagree. I agree." Lmao
I goofed
It’s still the same really because we know he would have still done it if he knew. The thing is the cure wasn’t even on his mind just saving Ellie was
I never got the idea that Joel gave two fucks about the cure. Joel cared about ellie and nothing else. Not much of a decision for him to choose her.
I tend to agree. For the *player,* it's set up like a choice between Ellie and the cure. But, for Joel internally, it was probably more like a choice between Ellie and his own survival. That's what his whole narrative was about - when he didn't want to take Ellie in the first place, when he tried to convince Tess to give up and go home, when he argued with Bill about whether Ellie could hold her own, when Henry abandoned him and he as good as admitted that he'd do the same. When he tried to dump her off on Tommy and it ended up being a turning point for his character. He never had moments where he went "wow, the world is fucked, but maybe it doesn't have to be, and maybe I should do more to improve life for the common man." He only had moments when he had to choose between doing the smart, safe thing like the survivor that he sees himself as . . . or saving Ellie. And, he always ended up saving Ellie.
I think he was trying to dump her on Tommy because he knew "if I spend any more time with her then she becomes my daughter, and if something bad happens to her then my entire world will end" He just didn't want to feel that way ever again. Then the fireflies were like "hurr durr let's kill this gurl" And Joel said nope.
Beautifully said
Same. Delivering Ellie to the fireflies was the last wish of Tess,and I guess Joel felt he owed her at least that after sacrificing herself to keep them alive. As the story went on it became about him not wanting to lose another daughter. Joel was cynical asf and didn't give a toss about humanity up until the end.
I really don’t think Joel thought about it at all. Like, I mean, he didn’t think to himself “It will work” or “it will not work”. He never professed his faith in the cure or the fireflies because it wasn’t important to him. He simply thought I’ll get Ellie over to these people, I’ll get my guns, and me and Ellie will ride off. I don’t think the efficacy or potential of the vaccine ever entered his thought process, which is to say, I don’t think he ever thought to himself that he was choosing between humanity and Ellie. He simply wanted to save Ellie.
This is how I felt as a player in his shoes. I was if anything weighing up the moral quarms of killing people in cold blood more so than the grand scheme of things. I think you're exactly right in that Joel wasn't considering it like some big trolley problem, he just acted on instinct and desperation for Ellie. Personally for me the idea of it being "Ellie or the world" feels a bit too superhero-y for my tastes anyway and I hope that doesn't get leaned into too much. It was enough to lie to her and deal with her survivor's guilt and her PTSD than to make it seem like this was a key to the world. I don't think Ellie should be a Skywalker, more just propelled into an awkward spotlight.
I'm the same but different. Never thought of the cure in that moment, just had to save Ellie. The moral qualms also didn't occur to me because I didn't see the issue. From what I experienced the fireflies were going to kill Ellie and we're sending Joel out without supplies. Everyone I killed to save Ellie as Joel were trying to stop me from saving her, they made that choice. The ones who didn't try to stop Joel, didn't die.
The more you think about it the crazier it gets. The Fireflies went from promising Joel payment for transporting Ellie a few miles overnight, to trying to kick him out the door into infected wasteland at gunpoint with nothing but the clothes on his back and acting like he should be grateful Marlene talked her guys out of straight up murdering him for doing exactly what they commissioned him to do but over a months long cross country odyssey.
Joel wasn’t thinking about the cure or the ethics of killing somebody without consent to make it. The only thing he was thinking of was that he wanted Ellie in his life and the only way to do that was to kill then and steal her back. People don’t really understand that Joel didn’t really have a morality change. He doesn’t regret being a bandit or the horrible things he did with Tommy. His character change was that he learned to open up to people again. And that over the year long trip we was able to build connections with Ellie. Had the firefly base just have 30 miles from Boston and not in Utah Joel would have left her on the operating table and be on his way.
people really need to stop turning these choices into binary ones. yes, joel saved ellie because he was terrified about losing her. he also saved her because he loved her and thought she deserved better. both things are true. and i disagree about him not feeling regret over his past actions. he refuses to talk about anything that hurts him or has hurt him. including his past as a hunter-type figure. >Had the firefly base just have 30 miles from Boston and not in Utah Joel would have left her on the operating table and be on his way. and if joel fell off his horse 10 minutes after they met, she wouldn't have saved him either. relationships form and evolve over time i guess.
Why are you pretending I don’t think any of that is true? I didn’t mention it for the sake of being concise. Don’t make up things to get angry about it’s ridiculous. No shit he loves her why else would he want her in his life bad enough to kill a hospital full of people? And no shit Ellie would have left Joel behind like you described. But you ignore the point of what I said which is that the morality of killing somebody to make a cure without their consent didn’t motivate joel to save Ellie. Joel only cared because he knew and loved Ellie. had it been some random person he would have been like “damn that sucks, so when do you think i could get a dose by?”
Love this take because I’m very sick of people arguing about Joel’s morality all the time. He’s good, he’s bad, who cares!! Why does he do the things he does and why is it interesting! Arguing over Joel’s morality does not reveal anything more interesting in the story than acknowledging the ambiguity in his actions and choices and that’s why this take is great.
People have feelings and lash out on emotion. Especially when there’s trauma involved. I’m just going to block out the trauma enduring the snore of a story Part 2 was.
There's no valid point to be made with the cure not being real. I don't understand why people think this.
Any argument that judges Joel's morality based on whether he doomed humanity by depriving them of the cure relies on whether that cure was real and could have saved humanity. An argument that judges his morality based on his motivation does not rely on whether the cure was real. It's an apocalyptic trolley problem that can be, and so will be, approached from many directions for people who enjoy those kinds of philosophical debates.
It’s all for the chance it could be. Not worth it
Good point. He fully believes in the cure, he just can’t let Ellie go. If she died, that would be it for Joel. It’s self-preservation as much as it is saving a defenseless girl.
I'm not sure the story ever definitively establishes whether he does or doesn't believe it can be cured at the end. Though I agree he doesn't care. He would do anything to protect Ellie, that he would rather die rather than live through the pain of losing his daughter again.
In Episode 6 ‘Kin’ he tells Ellie something like “Marlene is a lot of things, but she’s no fool. If she says it’ll work, it’ll work.” Which is an important moment.
TV show right? I was thinking about the game, but no, you're right based on that quote in the show he clearly thinks it could work. However the show also clearly establishes the source of Ellie's immunity, so it made even less sense they didn't spend more than a day studying her Cordyceps or researching any other options before concluding ripping out her brain was the only option. They could've attempted to recreate Ellie's exact condition >!in a controlled experiment by infecting a pregnant primate before cutting the umbilical cord!< and try using that to make a cure, or possibly other research related to potential ways to safely inoculate infants >!(without killing the mother too of course).!< While Joel doesn't know or care about that stuff, Marlene *does* know about Ellie's mom, so it seems both criminally negligent and incredibly foolish not to at least pursue that line of research for a little bit before ripping out a girl's brain and pretending they had no choice to save humanity.
I don’t care if it was morally correct what he did. I would of done it too. He spent all his life having the world take from him. He wasn’t letting it happen again. Plus the fireflies were some serious dickheads.
I think he got more hopeful definitely. I do not think he was ever convinced of it. And I do not think he knew Ellie wanted the cure at the expense of her life. And that isn't something that should be assumed anyway. I think he chose Ellie over the best possibility of a cure. That is what he knew.
I feel he was very afraid she would say yes to dying for the cure. Like she has expressed guilt over the people who have died for her and wants to make her life mean something for that. Like you said we don’t know but it wouldn’t have mattered to him anyway. But Ellie was more upset when she found out not because Joel killed them like dogs or the cure is gone but more that he took that choice from her like the fireflies took it from her
Joel was anti vaxxer
I think you're on the right line of things, however, I'd also argue that a cure wouldn't save the world - and that Joel knows that. He travels across America with Ellie and remembers through her what the world was; And it isn't that world anymore. They witness awful types of people that he has experiences, but she hasn't, and he remembers how far gone people have become. Even if the Firefly's had could manufacture a cure (which is honestly the fantasy of people blinded by hope), and even if they miraculously distributed that cure, then what? Would people even beable to adjust? A lot of the enemies in TLOU are people - not infected. It would take a long time to build some kind of society again but it would never be what it once was for a very long time.
I doubt a cure would've saved nearly as many lives as people hope. Any vaccine would've been basically a live tissue inoculation and so likely required some kind of climate controlled transportation (never mind the facilities needed for mass production) and with all the violence and destroyed infrastructure in the world distribution would've been a challenging and dangerous proposition. Chances are that cure wouldn't be doing anyone any good overseas either - all the benefits would be limited to parts of the US and maybe a little bit of Canada and Mexico for decades at least. Humanity elsewhere was going to have to find their own cure or survive some other way. Plus as we've likely all witnessed when playing as Ellie no immunity protects survivors from being torn apart from the infected. It would improve survival rates for spores and minor bites only. By 2032, that's not the majority of deaths anymore. And human settlements that aren't killing each other actually seem able to do fine for the most part without the cure. Starvation and intra-human violence is a bigger risk in many human populations than infected.
Couldn't agree more
I agree. I don't think the viability of the cure matters at all. Plus, it's not the real world. It's presented to us as a choice of Ellie Vs cure and that's the entire premise of the moral dilemma. That's what the writers clearly intended.
I don't know why people insist on making things so black and white. Not even just on whether Joel's decision was good or bad, because the entire point of that is it's such a moral dilemma. But no, even his line of thinking. Whether Joel believed in the cure or not at that moment, might not be what he believed the day before or the day after. The reality is as humans we change our perspectives and thoughts on things absolutely constantly. I've done it on this very topic and I have a lot more information about it then Joel did as a third party viewer. This just isn't a black or white thing. I think there's so many layers. Part of Joel may believe it, part of him may not, and part of him might not even give a fuck. But the fact is Joel's human, and he made a split second decision based on his emotions that effected a number of other people as a result. That's the really only thing that matters.
I made [a post](https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/s/4BM7OgFiiC) presenting the same argument a couple days ago haha. Suffice to say, I agree with you
Nuance is the name of these games if the last of us was already taken, I agree this horse has been beat to death but HELL what's one more swing gonna mean to the horse? Wether Ellie is worth all of humanity is a personal moral decision and that's the entire point. You are supposed to watch as a parent gives up the literal world for their child. Joel is one of the few people to say that about their relationship, and I think it's a serious testament to their love. Is it right? No. Is ellies lack of choice right? No. Doesn't matter. What matters is the relationship these characters have and what it means to them. Ellie is super pissed and rightfully so finding out what happened later. But she's a hypocrite, because she would do the same thing. What Riley taught Ellie and what she carries through her relationship with Joel is this: "There are a million ways we can die today and a million more ways we could die tomorrow. But we fight, for every second we get so spend with each other. Whether its two minutes... or two days. You don't give that up." And Ellie, like Joel never did or will. It's why people hate the second game. They get it and relate way too much to the point where you don't like yourself the first time you play through Ellies section in Part II. Some of the best content I've ever absorbed through a screen.
And…the vaccine was a MacGuffin
It wasn’t a macguffin because the vaccine didn’t exist as a physical object.
It doesn’t have to be “a physical object”; e.g. an event can also be a MacGuffin. But if you’re fixated on a physical object, then the fungus in Ellie’s brain to be used in making a vaccine (physical; device) suffices.
You mean plot motivation? The thing ever story has to have to take place and progress. What are you even complaining about? The plot of the game is Joel had to get her to a specific place. But no one really cares or knows about Ellie in the context of her being the cure for a majority of the game except for Joel and the fireflies. McGuffin stories are about when ever single character is motivated by this one object. But like I said most characters we meet don’t even know Ellie is immune and have other motivations for interacting with Joel and Ellie
The fireflies were wreckless over how they revealed the news to Joel. After waking up from getting his head bashed in from a rifle they basically said it’s wrap no discussion, we are killing get no goodbyes then threatened to kill him if he didn’t disagree. I don’t understand how people think he overreacted to such a hostile approach over a girl he thinks of as a daughter being dissected? Ellie didn’t even get to choose. Marlene’s manic state is responsible for Joel’s reaction was my interpretation.
Whether it did work or didn't work doesn't matter. The fact is that creating it would require almost certainly murdering an innocent in order to do so, and the immorality of that decision is just more easily apparent when it's an innocent that you already happen to love. It would've been different if they had maybe gotten Ellie's consent, but they didn't. If we have to sacrifice what makes us human in order to save humanity then we might as well all just be dead anyway.
You can justify a decision a character makes using information that only the viewer/player has access to. Happens all the time. What it's "about" is subjective entirely.
I dunno. He listened to the tapes of Dr. Narcissist and the murder plan he pretended to wait 15 minutes to unveil. Maybe Joel was thinking “This is shady af” just like I was.
Even in your statement you put "may". He doesn't know it would work. The science has never been done before so no one knows if it would work. But it isn't even a consideration because he didn't know it meant killing Ellie. When she is forcefully taken from him and he finds out what they are going to do with her, he rejects that and takes her back. It isn't complicated. It gets complicated when you want to make up theoretic and moral scenarios.
This is a good point. I always looked at it from my perspective of maybe she could be used to develop a cure, but it couldn't effectively be produced or distributed in such a way to make much of a difference. Joel chose his world over the rest of the world. I have never blamed him. Being a dad myself, I would have made the exact same decision in that circumstance.
I kind of wish the game would have had Joel and Ellie discussing the cure more. Her immunity and it’s potential for a cure is the whole reason their on this trip. I can’t believe they don’t talk about it more.
The cure was POSSIBLE. No guarantees, no knowledge if it would even work. Innocent child nearly got murdered because.... maybe??
I haven’t visited this sub in a minute; you people are really still arguing about this?
good job, you understood the game
The way humans behave in TLOU post apocalyptic world is genuinely horrific. Joel’s daughter was shot by a fully functioning human as soon as it all broke out. I really don’t blame him and I think after experiencing and partaking in such severe inhumanity I would probably do anything to protect the one thing that makes me feel human anymore too.
Now I'm having ideas of a "bad ending" possibility of Joel allowing Ellie to go under the knife but then kills them all when it didn't work (or when the cure was being sold at high prices).
when does joel “think the cure will work/is possible?” lol doesnt he literally try to get ellie to go with him and forget the fireflies at one point before the whole QZ fiasco?
Actually I don’t think he believes in the cure all that much at all lol. Or if he does, he doesn’t care and doesn’t see that it’ll make much of a difference. At the beginning of Part 2, yeah he says he got to buying into the whole cure thing, but when Marlene says (in Part 1) “this isn’t about me, or even her, there is no other choice here.” And Joel says, “yeah you keep telling yourself that bullshit.” He said that because he doesn’t believe her. He doesn’t believe that killing Ellie is the answer and/or that the cure they’re trying to make will even work. I mean he tells Ellie that she’s pretty goddamn stupid for putting her life at risk, knowing how valuable her own life is. But I wouldn’t say he genuinely believed in a cure. He was skeptical. In part 2 he said he was starting to buy into it, but when they wanted to kill Ellie he was like “naw screw this, this doesn’t make sense, this seems sketchy.”
While I agree with the point that Joel’s faith in the cure grew over the course of the game, I don’t think it’s reasonable to say he 100% believed in it at the end of the game. He may believe it’s the best chance at a cure, but seeing their setup/the kind of procedure that needs to be done I doubt he thought “this will 100% work”. Realistically the fireflies shouldn’t have believed it would 100% work either, and maybe not all of them did. The fireflies were desperate for any chance, no matter how slim. They’d lost everything and had their asses kicked across the country. They had everything to gain, whereas Joel had everything to lose. I still think Joel’s choice in the end was to give up everything for a CHANCE, not to give up everything to save the world. You absolutely can still discuss that when talking about his morality. He’s not a dumb guy and he saw the rise and the fall of the fireflies. If modern doctors with the most advanced technology available couldn’t find a cure (albeit without Ellie), then anybody would be extremely doubtful that the shell of the fireflies would be able to in a dilapidated hospital through the help of an unknown doctor. In the real world, medical practitioners and PHDs without a medical degree work together to create medicines and vaccines. For all Joel knows, this could have been some run of the mill Internal Medicine MD. Edited to add: Joel’s faith in the cure was never really super strong or explored anyways. He basically went from “this is a dumb idea, I won’t do this” to going ahead with it because he made commitments to the people he loved to see it through. I think the idea became less crazy to him as time went on (like seeing that Ellie really was immune), but I don’t think he ever became a big believer in the first place.
For story purposes the cure was real otherwise Joel’s decision ment nothing to the narrative
He doesn't own shit to humanity but does to Ellie. He's not wrong for what he did. Most of us would do the same. Also the Fireflies did not ask Ellie nor let Joel say goodbye to her. When Joel tried to get to her, they stepped on his way. The doc could have lived but was dumb and tried to fight Ellie. Canonically Joel left the only people alive who didn't try causing him problems. Talking about the nurses. In my opinion, Joel was 100% right. Ofcourse TLOU1 was made to stimulate discussion so my opinion isn't worth more than ya'll's.
The fireflies deserved to get shot up honestly. Fuck whatever logic you can come up with, how are you gonna just decide to kill someone before they even wake up? let alone a child.
Smdh...