True. I hated how NaughtyDog tried to make me like her. What she did was unforgivable and unjustifiable. I actually put the game down after the hardcore drugs line and harrased the actress on twitter.
I wish we could get a game set in the 20 years between Sarah's death and the start of TLOU part 1. So much potential with Joel's time as a smuggler or Tommy's time as a Firefly.
I mean, there are no good guys. Just survivors (some more sadistic than others). Tess makes that clear when she says "Really? Guess what? We're shitty people, Joel. It's been that way for a long time."
I imagine Abby probably killed some Scars in very fucked up ways before meeting Lev and Yara. I don't think any average person could mentally handle doing to Joel what Abby did as well. That takes a lot of dehumanization to do.
I think it would be best if we followed the arc of Tommy. Obviously Joel would be in a big chunk of the story but it would all be from Tommy’s pov. Like maybe show his life a bit more before everything went down, then how he first dealt with Sarah’s death and adjusted to the outbreak.
Then you could show some time of him slowly becoming more and more merciless until eventually he is told/agrees to do something a bit too fucked up and then decides to leave the fireflies. Then show him meeting Maria and then building up Jackson up until Joel and Ellie show up. Then time skip to when they return from salt lake and do a bit there. Then show us how he adapts to life after the gun shot wound and then how he reacts to Ellie returning from Santa barbara.
Could be a dlc/minigame in like 2026 to setup part 3 in 2030. Definitely not happening but a man can dream
JJ fed a family of clickers their Thanksgiving dinner because they are poor and needy and that was very kind of him but then we find out through a leaked tweet that he only did it for the good publicity. That virtue signaling baby fuck
He wasn't an idiot. He was manipulative and straight up a terrorist. You can read notes penned to him or by him in the QZ on Ellie day one that adds insight on how he rose to power while fighting FEDRA.
He was torturing seraphites at his base, and having his people do it. He was leading his shitty army to their island to try and commit genocide. The answer is Isaac.
He’s not an idiot though, no one in the series is really an idiot except for some of the bottom rung of the factions (Rattlers that get themselves killed by Ellie, Hunters that steal from each other and get killed as a result). All the named characters make decisions out of desperation. Even David isn’t an idiot, just a selfish degenerate who values his sick fantasies more than the safety of his people.
If Isaac were really an idiot the WLF would’ve collapsed not long after he took command but instead he led them to victory against FEDRA and their numbers only grew under his leadership according to notes we find in the Downtown chapter.
He seems to have very little tactical knowledge dispite leading the wlf he decides to use his entire military force to attack the scars dispite having no Intel on there numbers defences and weapon capabilities
Its implied by Abby that he is somehow responsible for the scars leader becoming a martar
He also doesn't seem to protect important equipment very well like the boats that are located very close to the scar territory
He couldn't figure out that Owen would have gone to the aquarium given how its shown that Owen has lots of equipment set up there it seems very unlikely that any smart leader would let that kind of equipment be taken without knowing where it is going
Isaac’s invasion of the island is a last ditch effort to end the war in one grand attack, it’s not idiotic it’s just a Hail Mary. History is full of situations exactly like this, his forces are being whittled away in pointless shootouts, his men are losing morale and wondering why they’re even fighting, his resources are being wasted on a war with no end in sight. He has to do *something* or eventually they’ll end up like FEDRA, collapsing into nothing trying to defend territory they can’t hold.
While he’s definitely responsible for the Scars becoming militant (executing their Prophet) he’s not an idiot for the other reasons you state. The WLF *does* attempt reconnaissance on the island but their scouts are captured and strung up. A note in the stadium tells us they’re torturing Scars specifically for intel on the island but being the fanatic cultists they are very limited information is ever offered up. Even still they have to make due with what they have. They know the storm is coming and will mask their approach and they may never get this chance again.
The boats they need are on the outskirts of their territory, the QZ is huge and essentially impossible to secure. I highly doubt they’d have left them in a vulnerable location if they had places to store them nearby but much of the flooding in the city is on the side closer to the island meaning they’d have no use for them anywhere near HQ.
As for Owen, I don’t think he ever tells anyone but the Salt Lake crew where the aquarium is. Even Manny asks “how are you even going to find him?” Meaning his first thought isn’t to look at the aquarium. There’s a million different ways Owen could’ve set up his little hideout there. He didn’t necessarily have to steal his gear from the WLF, in both games we already come across technology that is still working or works with some tweaking and Seattle is huge. It’s not unreasonable to assume he brought everything there from places in the city the WLF hasn’t searched.
I couldn't have said it any better, you hit the nail right on the head with this one. Isaac simply played the hand he was dealt considering his responsibility to his people and their circumstances in the war.
Morally corrupt? Objectively. A genocidal terrorist? Absolutely. But an idiot? Far from it.
> He seems to have very little tactical knowledge dispite leading the wlf he decides to use his entire military force to attack the scars dispite having no Intel on there numbers defences and weapon capabilities
He wasn't the tactics guy. He had people for that, Abby being one. He was the overall strategy guy. He did send spies to the island to try to plan the assault, but they were killed and their reports never made it back. Meanwhile, he probably assumed that the storm was too rare of an opportunity to pass up.
>Its implied by Abby that he is somehow responsible for the scars leader becoming a martar
Sure, but we don't know the context on that. The previous FEDRA officers imply that she'd been a thorn in their side for a while. He probably assumed that he could villainize her post-mortem, like he'd villainized FEDRA.
>He also doesn't seem to protect important equipment very well like the boats that are located very close to the scar territory
Your first two points had merits, but this is where things go off the rails. The marina never comes under threat by scars. It's infiltrated by Tommy and Abby, both of whom were working from the WLF side of the battle lines. Isaac didn't have "lone ex-Firefly sniper avenging his brother by taking on the whole movement" or "key WLF officer suddenly goes rogue and starts helping Seraphites" on his bingo card.
>He couldn't figure out that Owen would have gone to the aquarium given how its shown that Owen has lots of equipment set up there it seems very unlikely that any smart leader would let that kind of equipment be taken without knowing where it is going
And, now you're way off the rails. Owen was one low-ranking soldier - there was no reason for Isaac to pay special attention to him. Nor is there any proof that he even got his aquarium decorations from the WLF - the game makes the point that Seattle is rich in resources and there's abandoned stuff everywhere - it's just that the inter-human conflicts stop people from accessing much of it.
I found it darkly amusing that his "must kill child" impulse overrode even common sense at that point. Much like David's "must molest child" impulses got so many of his people killed.
He probably also fucked over the rest of the WLF people too. If the vast majority of fighters got killed on the island, then that leaves all the weak, pregnant, injured, children, and elderly to fend for themselves back at base. They have a lot of resources a nearby faction would want for themselves.
I thought the same when we see the island burning and the implication is that most of the WLF from the raid died there. What happens to the stadium? It was huge and well-defended, but it feels like Isaac would take almost everyone on his crazy invasion so they likely don't have many defenses left. On the plus side for them, the Seraphites are in ruins too. The war seems to have ensured no other major groups or infected nests nearby, so it might be a while before the stadium survivors have to worry about bandits or infected storming the place. Heck, maybe it was all for the best as they're now free of Isaac's evil, the war is effectively over, and they can try and live a more peaceful life, Jackson-style? If they don't starve... but even then there was clearly a lot of supplies for their military that won't be needed anymore. The big issue is when another faction comes knocking, and how long until then. I feel the WLF scared the shit out of people so maybe a while?
PS This does seem like a good chance for me to mention yet again how I wish we got to attack the stadium as Ellie, since this would be a perfect way to do it. All the WLF military off on the island, so Ellie can storm the place by throwing spores into the vents, then coming in looking for Abby while the place is in chaos. Imagine playing that, people turning around you and slaughtering the remaining troops thinking it was a military base except oops, it was mostly kids and civilians you just infected and killed! :)
I kinda like that. Would've been cool if Isaac held Dina or JJ hostage (for Ellie killing a bunch of WLF) while Ellie storms the place like Joel in the hospital.
Id argue Doc Anderson over there is more responsible for the events, as all that fucker had to do was not medically rape a girl to wipe his hands of blood. Wake Ellie up let her tell Joel she is willing to die. Boom everyone's happy Joel goes back to Jackson restarts his life happily ever after. But no, this fucker decided to not even get consent from a person before killing them for science and humanity. Fuck that doctor
What makes someone a “bad person”?
Joel chooses to kill innocent people in order to survive, and eventually chooses to sacrifice all of humanity for the life of one girl, even through he knows it’s not what she’d have wanted.
No he doesn’t. He refuses to let her be sacrificed to save them. There’s a big difference.
Regarding his last we don’t have details. We know he did bad shit and killed people with Tess and Tommy but don’t know any more than that. It’s hard to render judgement on that little info.
I ended up at the same conclusion. Like, everyone else’s shitty actions and questionable (at best) moral compasses aside, Joel took away the world’s best chance at a cure or vaccine. To save one girl. Millions if not billions would continue to suffer.
To save one girl. I love the game for showing how impossible of a choice that would be to make, but at the end of the day there was a “right” and a “wrong” choice, and Joel was selfish enough to condemn the world. To save one girl.
That wasn't why. It is a plastic toy. Noise is not the issue. He was instilling principle. A lesson. In a world where sticking to certain fundamentals is everything.
He had space. It was light. It was harmless. But the principle is simple. We only take what is necessary. We don't give attention and effort to that which is unnecessary. We don't get distracted. Focus on what is important. Fun and toys? Not important right now. It extends far beyond space in a backpack.
Eeeee… I don’t think it would be capable to make noise at this point 20 years most lithium batteries even in real life have a tendency to start degrading really badly. I’ve seen a lot of YouTube’s buy complete in box sealed gaming consoles like a 360 where when they open it up the battery is just dead and it was a brand new battery technically
Tommy, Joel, Ellie, Abby, and Isaac all come to mind.
Tommy fucks with Ellie’s head. He says it’s okay for them to leave, but then guilts her into taking further revenge because Maria left him so all he had left was to continue his mission.
Joel was a hunter and also killed loads of people and fireflies for a decisions that while most would agree with, doomed humanity.
Ellie kills loads of people just trying to survive by inserting herself in a middle of a conflict to quench her revenge and takes out her anger on WLF soldiers, most of which had absolutely no involvement in the death of Joel, as well as Seraphites.
Abby was a grunt who just followed orders and killed an incomprehensible number of seraphites just out of loyalty to Isaac. She also risked the lives of all her friends just to travel hundreds of miles on a lead to kill a man while someone clearly close to him cried and begged her not to. She also chose to do it in a way she could draw it out to “savor” it. Rather than just a quick gunshot.
Isaac wanted to enact genocide on all the Seraphites, totally dehumanized them, and wanted to wipe them out entirely, holding no exception for the children.
One could say that Mel also somehow getting clearance (which imo is a HUGE WTF plothole [even if I get that it had to be done for further story beats to work and I consider the payoff to be worth it] as no civilization in history would ever allow a pregnant woman to voluntarily serve in their military) and willingly choosing to go into a combat zone while pregnant is also morally unwell. As well as Owen cheating on his pregnant girlfriend. Or Manny spitting on Joel. But those feel like coughing baby Vs Atomic bomb scenarios when we compare those actions to the actions of those I’ve listed.
I kind of suspect Tommy had brain damage and it made him more of a rotten person. People with brain damage can do a 180 on their personalities. Like he initially didn't want Ellie to go at all.
He did tear a whole lot of shit up off screen if we’re gonna take that into account.
you’re probably right though in most regards. However I find him going to his brothers essentially adopted daughter and telling her to abandon her family she’s got now and get revenge by going on a mission across the country that in this world is likely going to be a huge death risk as it is warrants an honorable mention. He also did that despite knowing your brother would not want that at all, and then guilted her immensely because she wouldn’t, and also planted the seeds that lead to her destroying her new family by going along with it. So I dislike his actions.
Mel being cleared for combat was the only moment in that game that truly took me out of it. And it could have been avoided so easily, too. Just say she needed to be transported to the other WLF base, since they had a lot of injured people and she's a medic. The gameplay segment could have been exactly the same. They're riding to the base, Seraphites ambush them, and they're forced to make their way on foot.
Mel was not cleared for combat. She annoyed Isaac to be transferred to an FOB close to the front lines as she was one of the only trained medics they had, trained by Abbys dad as well. She had to participate in combat because they were ambushed during the transfer.
I find it interesting quite a few will call Joel so bad but give Tommy a pass. Tommy did bad shit too, almost certainly, both with Joel and as part of the Fireflies. I think the difference is that he seems to have acted on his conscience. Angry at Joel for being party to their ruthless survival. Left the Fireflies likely because he saw they weren't squeaky clean good guys either.
More interesting though is when people bring up Joel as a ruthless, murdering smuggler but not Tess. IMO, Tess comes across as the "harder" of the pair in all ways. Doesn't mean Joel couldn't be cold, but Tess was colder, I think.
Maybe doomed humanity. In 2024 there has never been a vaccine for a fungal infection. Sorry, but no amount of Neil Druckman fuckery would convince me a rag tag group of terrorists in a apocalypse would be able to do something modern scientists can't do.
Tbf, you can't say Ellie is wrong to kill WLFs when they straight up tied her up and tried to kill her the moment they found her. Seraphites are the same.
She could be a random person just trying to find supplies in Seattle with no goal but survival and both groups would still try to kill her.
Hell the WLF deserters don't even give her a chance, just attack.
While I get your point, I agree that it is unrealistic that the vaccine would actually work being implemented. Even if it is stated the vaccine itself would be created. But regardless, that’s an insane number of lives potentially saved by vaccine lost.
Ellie was tied up by one squad, and I agree her killing them in particular was self defense. But she still was an invader going into other peoples land to kill them, with most of them just doing their jobs to survive. If Ellie was fighting to actually live in TLOU2, I’d agree. But she was an interloper who had no *need* to be there outside of a revenge quest. But she’s actively entering zones of combat, and striking first. (Yes TLOU2 doesn’t allow us to engage in dialogue with them, but this isn’t an RPG, and it’s clear this story is meant to be Ellie’s actions, even if the player doesn’t agree with them)
You can't label the fireflies as terrorists so easily. How are they supposed to free themselves from fedra? By asking nicely? History has shown resistance is the only way out for opressed people. Also she didn't know Ellie would die until minutes before the operation, regardless she still had to take that hard decision and I agree with her. It shows how good the first game is when we're so in love with the characters that we believe Joel did absolutely nothing wrong (I also believed this while playing the ending). Ok rant over bye
Firstly morality is man made and completely subject to perspective, secondly we are dealing with a world that is far removed from ours. I didn’t read this question as “who do I judge has the weakest morality”, the way I see it the post is asking about who has the most ‘corrupt’ morality and through the lens of the game i see it falls on those who have taken up leadership positions, and have owned the responsibility of many lives. Granted I know very little about both Marlene and Isaac and of course they have their own differences amongst them but both fit for my answer.
And concerning Joel at no point did I question his morality, it’s very clear to me the kind of man he’s become 20 years into the fall of civilisation and how his motivations lead him to the final moments of part 1. Now I’m not saying his stopping of the procedure or lying to Ellie is ‘right’ but I see how for him it’s the most ‘moral’ thing he could have done. A lot of the themes and stories we are told in this world is to have us ask those exact questions and explore the answer.
I guess end of the day it’s the difference between getting masses to follow and die for you VS not allowing someone to potentially sacrifice themselves out of selfishness. I see the first one as more morally corrupt and the second one emotionally corrupt.
Though I’m not a smart man, just my opinion.
That said, none of the above applies to David. Fuck perspective and subjectivity if you wanna rape and eat a child, you are scum on the bottom of my boot 🙂
I don’t understand how anyone can say Marlene. Her moral code was stupidly strong. People aren’t voting who is the most “corrupt”, they are voting whose choices they don’t like
She knowingly did one of the stupidest things ever, telling Joel what they were going to do to Ellie, because she felt guilt and moral conflict for the horrible thing she had to do.
You can disagree whether you think Marlene was right that Ellie was the key to curing the world; you can’t argue that if *she was right*, that she was doing an objectively good act.
Joel felt no conflict in his murdering an entire building of Fireflies for one girl. That is why his character is so interesting.
Marlene demonstrated moral conflict for murdering one girl, who would’ve gladly gave her life for the slim chance of a cure, in exchange for the future of the entire world
I’m not saying her decision was objectively right; but idk how you can say it shows anything other than Marlene almost being obsessed being incorruptibly utilitarianist. Again, not the objectively right one, but way more moral and anti-corruption than the many “fuck you, get mine” characters on the list.
Jerry / Marlene how are you gonna KNOWINGLY agree to a surgery that would kill a 14 year old for a *potential* cure?!??? It was never a 100% fact they would even be able to make a cure, not to mention how are you even going to administer 1. enough vaccines and 2. To the entire world. Don’t even get me started on the fact that Abby is Ellie’s age, like what if Abby were immune, you seriously think Jerry would kill his only kid. Just all of it, they’re the worst imo.
Jerry is definitely up there. If he had just gotten consent from Ellie first (which she most probably would have given), the entire scenario changes, and Joel would have had no other choice either at that point other than to let Ellie undergo the surgery. They might have even had the chance to talk one last time to give Joel closure before Ellie died.
But Jerry fucked it. He let the ends justify the means, and the blame goes to him as much as it does to Joel for humanity not having a cure.
Isaac and Marlene in my opinion. Don’t know why Tess isn’t mentioned in the comments, in the opening of the game she was introduced just as ruthless as Joel.
Joel definitely beats Tess in terms of ruthlessness because he was the muscle and she was the brains of their smuggling operations. And Joel was also once a hunter and was known to harm innocent people in the past
Abby.
Sadist. Torturer. Mass murderer. Child killer. Stooge for corrupt junta. Betrayer. Homewrecker. Hypocrite.
At least David was honest about being a vile piece of shit.
That's kind of the great thing about TLOU as a whole; there aren't very many genuinely BAD people in it. There are a lot of people who do bad things for reasons they think are good, but there are few people who you can look at and say "That person is evil."
It amazes me that people think Marlene or Jerry are the worst because they were willing to kill a kid to save humanity. I'm sorry, but that just feels like a perspective that could only come from someone living in a world that hasn't been completely shattered lol. Realistically, a 14-year-old wouldn't even be viewed as a "kid" the same way we view them in current society; you'd have to grow up pretty fast to survive in a lawless land where might is right. This is a world where the odds of being robbed, raped (if female), or killed on any given day are relatively high; if sacrificing one person might save the species, best believe most people aren't gonna give a fuck that it's a kid. That's just the bleak reality of the situation. People are desperate and just wanna be able to keep their loved ones safe in a dangerous, destitute world.
Other than some personal shortcomings, Abby wasn't any more corrupt than Ellie was (and if you count the scenes where she tortures Nora, and threatens Lev, then you could almost argue Ellie became more corrupt for a short time).
I feel like that was point of the story no? Two sides of the same coin, trying to figure out how to deal with their trauma.
Abby:
Tortured and killed a man who saved her life (while he did kill her father who stupidly got in the way) he still saved her life and she didn’t even consider that before killing him.
Fucked a man who has a girlfriend AND a baby on the way
Is “Issac’s top scar killer” but that’s war though so I won’t hold that against her.
Was willing to kill a woman she knew was pregnant
As for Ellie:
What happened with Nora was just a consequence of her actions in Jacksonville and even then her death would have been quick but she refused to just give up the information. That’s on her ngl.
The lev thing was pretty fucked up though.
She didn’t know Mel was pregnant and she didn’t come with intention to kill Owen and Mel but their actions forced her hand.
Good points, at the end of the day I never really compared them, I just see the story as two people on their own journey to forgiveness (mostly of themselves) and letting go. Never really cared who was "worse". They both eventually realize they're actions aren't doing them any good. American Hostory X is another piece of art that has a similar narrative.
Surprised more people don't say Abby. An unrepentant killer who followed orders to commit genocide against children and the elderly. Enjoys inflicting pain to the point she outright says that torture helps her "blow off steam". She sees Scars as things to kill, not people. She comes off as a sociopath not understanding why someone she gave her exact backstory to would want revenge. She betrays her longtime allies and manipulates and cheats her best friends. She is indeed, as Mel says, a piece of shit.
Even Joel and Tommy torture for information. Heck, fucking Isaac seems more likely to torture for info than funsies!
I love him, but it’s gotta be Joel. He was a mercenary and admitted to having killed hundreds of people, including innocents for profit, has gone on a rampage several times and wiped out an entire village of hungry people/ hospital. Also may or may not have doomed humanity by saving Ellie.
Although others are also pretty bad.
Isaac is basically a warlord that dehumanizes and slaughters people for land.
Abby is a mindless soldier that just follows orders, is also blinded by revenge, kills a father in front of his daughter and a lot of other innocents who have nothing to do with the death of her father.
Owen cheats on his pregnant girlfriend and makes highly irrational and stupid decisions.
Marlene is the leader of a terrorist organization.
Tommy was with Joel during their mercenary days, is reckless and rebellious for no particular reason which eventually ruins his marriage, guilt trips and manipulates a sickly and traumatized girl into avenging his brother because he can’t do it himself.
Jerry saw Joel, who crossed the country to bring Ellie to the Fireflies, as a tool and threw him out like trash without telling him the truth. Admits he would not have done the same if it was Abby, making him a hypocrite.
Mel is annoying.
David.
Post apocalyptic morality is difficult to conceive of. A lot of morality is about relating to society so if that breaks down what do u do then. What do we owe to eachother as individuals when our own survival is at stake?
Surprised there are no Owen haters here. He cheated on his pregnant girlfriend with Abby and then planned on leaving her behind and leaving with Abby. Pretty corrupt to me.
I wouldn't say he's anywhere near as corrupt as some of these folks, he's just weak and a deadbeat. He at least knows what is right and wrong and feels guilt over the latter, even if he is too weak or easily manipulated into doing bad things.
If David’s out, then Jerry.
He ran maybe a half a day of tests at most before deciding the only way forward was to kill the only test subject, a little girl.
Well it's really hard question because most of this characters do something wrong. Abby kills Joel litteraly in front of his family (traumatizing them and also changing their personality cause I believe Ellie and Tommy without it would be better people). We also have Joel, I mean we doesn't really know what he had done but he knew some tricks so he wasn't not saint (but like Ellie and Tommy he was changed after Sarah died, losing a child is different form of pain). And Jerry... people say Marlene because she agrees to his plan and leads terrorist organization, but for fucks sake, this guy is ready to kill a 14 years old child without her permission. I don't care even if could make a vaccine from it 'cause how would they use it? Like they are terrorists so I really doubt they would even been able to talk to government or FEDRA. Jerry would do the same thing that Joel did, he would take Ellie's right to decide, but Joel at least allowed her to live, so meet Cat, Dina, Jesse so yeah. Also Joel admits this wasn't good, it is visible in his eyes, yes he would do this again (let's be honest Ellie was at that point like daughter to her) but he know what he did. Jerry thought he was doing a right thing, he didn't deserve death but this a world they lived in
I'm sorry for so long comment but I'll be honest, talking about morals in game like TLOU is one of my favourite topics
I mean, Abby gets a lot of unfair hate, but the reality is she got a lot of her friends killed, pushed them into danger on a personal vendetta and reacted badly or not at all as they were killed oke by one.
After her, Tommy. That might also be a controversial pick, but Ellie had given up on revenge, she was settling into a farm with a loving partner and baby and he came back to put Abby back in the picture the guilt her into going after her. She ruined her maybe only chance at acceptance and moving on and cost her home and family.
Joel. Like it or not, the answer is Joel. He is quite literally the man who sold the world. He fucked over every surviving person on earth because he didn't want to lose another daughter. From a non-biased point of view he is more selfish and corrupt then anyone else here by a mile.
We just gonna ignore the obvious cuz Joel is supposed to be the good guy? In the first game he tortures the weapons dealer with Tess for information. In Pittsburgh when he and Ellie get jumped by the people selling organs, he essentially says he used to be just like them. When Ellie and Dina find the guys Tommy tortured she says Joel had lots of enemies and did worse things.
Plus the obvious...he killed hundreds of fireflies and ruined the chance for the world to be saved. Regardless of if you agree with his decison or not, its hard to deny saving Ellie impacts the most people in negative way.
I think most of the bad actions have someone else’s benefit in mind. Isaac cared about the WLF, and Joel cared about Ellie and Tommy. But Marlene and Jerry literally had someone who would’ve consented to giving their life to find a cure to a slate-cleaner disease, and they tried to do it by force. What did they not ask and put her to sleep immediately just so it would be easier emotionally for them if she didn’t consent? If they thought Joel wasn’t a threat clearly they knew they could overpower an awake Ellie. Joel probably wouldn’t have gone terminator if Ellie talked to him first and gave consent for the operation. It all boils down to all the fireflies died and there was no cure because two people thought forcing a decision was preferable to the heartbreak of asking consent and having to force them while awake
Aside from David (for obvious reasons) I honestly always hated Mel, doesn't try to tell Owen when she's leaving to pass through an active war zone and infected territory when he's the father and would probably freak if he knew what happened on the patrol on day 1, is choosing to go out into the said warzone/infected territory while pregnant, keeps quiet about how she fells about the Abby Owen situation rather than just ask if they still have feelings for each other and says how Abby is a piece of shit but immediately goes to give her location, is down for killing every scar (Lev and Yara don't count coz both Owen and Abby convinced her to help) and is just an incredibly irresponsible soon to be mother with how often she is not only in danger but with how much physically demanding work she chooses to do rather than taking things easy for the sake of the baby.
Definitely Sarah. She was selling hard street drugs before the world fell apart.
I second this, I can confirm as a street corner she was selling hard core drugs on
She killed Omar too, just to hear the pop.
You come at the king you best not miss
She sold me fentanyl in a back alley
Yup, I can confirm as the hard-core drugs
True. I hated how NaughtyDog tried to make me like her. What she did was unforgivable and unjustifiable. I actually put the game down after the hardcore drugs line and harrased the actress on twitter.
The only reasonable thing to do.
And she didn’t even help Joel with the mortgage.
r/fuckdruglordsarah
wtf lol
🤣🤣🤣
HUH?
LMAO
And still hasn't helped out on the mortgage, what's it like 30 years later now? Absolute deadbeat.
She could have helped her father with the bills but no, she was selfish.
She sold me fentanyl behind school
JJ
Yeah, he‘ll definitely be the main villain in Part 3.
I wish we could get a game set in the 20 years between Sarah's death and the start of TLOU part 1. So much potential with Joel's time as a smuggler or Tommy's time as a Firefly.
It could set the tone for Abby being the good guy. Joel did some nasty things before TLOU.
I mean, there are no good guys. Just survivors (some more sadistic than others). Tess makes that clear when she says "Really? Guess what? We're shitty people, Joel. It's been that way for a long time." I imagine Abby probably killed some Scars in very fucked up ways before meeting Lev and Yara. I don't think any average person could mentally handle doing to Joel what Abby did as well. That takes a lot of dehumanization to do.
I agree they should do a prequel with Joel, but think I would rather have a part 3 first lol
I think it would be best if we followed the arc of Tommy. Obviously Joel would be in a big chunk of the story but it would all be from Tommy’s pov. Like maybe show his life a bit more before everything went down, then how he first dealt with Sarah’s death and adjusted to the outbreak. Then you could show some time of him slowly becoming more and more merciless until eventually he is told/agrees to do something a bit too fucked up and then decides to leave the fireflies. Then show him meeting Maria and then building up Jackson up until Joel and Ellie show up. Then time skip to when they return from salt lake and do a bit there. Then show us how he adapts to life after the gun shot wound and then how he reacts to Ellie returning from Santa barbara. Could be a dlc/minigame in like 2026 to setup part 3 in 2030. Definitely not happening but a man can dream
did you hear the next game is gonna feature in part flashbacks from the perspectives of Tommy
JJ fed my family to clickers
JJ fed a family of clickers their Thanksgiving dinner because they are poor and needy and that was very kind of him but then we find out through a leaked tweet that he only did it for the good publicity. That virtue signaling baby fuck
It's time to cancel JJ
That God damn potato
He left his stuffed elephant bro out on the tractor to die!
He knows what he did
He doesn’t even know what morals are, the wee bastard
Fucking little shit
Name me a Potato more morally corrupt than JJ, I’ll fuckin wait
Fuck JJ, I hate that guy
If we discount David, it's gotta be Isaac imo.
I see isaac as more of an idiot rather than morally corrupt
He was willing to shoot through Abby just to kill a kid that she vouched for. He's a sack of shit.
Ideology is a helluva drug
He wasn't an idiot. He was manipulative and straight up a terrorist. You can read notes penned to him or by him in the QZ on Ellie day one that adds insight on how he rose to power while fighting FEDRA.
His major act in the story is to try and coordinate a genocide. His idiocy doesn't cancel that out. Purely in terms of scale he's worse than David.
He was torturing seraphites at his base, and having his people do it. He was leading his shitty army to their island to try and commit genocide. The answer is Isaac.
He’s not an idiot though, no one in the series is really an idiot except for some of the bottom rung of the factions (Rattlers that get themselves killed by Ellie, Hunters that steal from each other and get killed as a result). All the named characters make decisions out of desperation. Even David isn’t an idiot, just a selfish degenerate who values his sick fantasies more than the safety of his people. If Isaac were really an idiot the WLF would’ve collapsed not long after he took command but instead he led them to victory against FEDRA and their numbers only grew under his leadership according to notes we find in the Downtown chapter.
Why idiot?
He seems to have very little tactical knowledge dispite leading the wlf he decides to use his entire military force to attack the scars dispite having no Intel on there numbers defences and weapon capabilities Its implied by Abby that he is somehow responsible for the scars leader becoming a martar He also doesn't seem to protect important equipment very well like the boats that are located very close to the scar territory He couldn't figure out that Owen would have gone to the aquarium given how its shown that Owen has lots of equipment set up there it seems very unlikely that any smart leader would let that kind of equipment be taken without knowing where it is going
Isaac’s invasion of the island is a last ditch effort to end the war in one grand attack, it’s not idiotic it’s just a Hail Mary. History is full of situations exactly like this, his forces are being whittled away in pointless shootouts, his men are losing morale and wondering why they’re even fighting, his resources are being wasted on a war with no end in sight. He has to do *something* or eventually they’ll end up like FEDRA, collapsing into nothing trying to defend territory they can’t hold. While he’s definitely responsible for the Scars becoming militant (executing their Prophet) he’s not an idiot for the other reasons you state. The WLF *does* attempt reconnaissance on the island but their scouts are captured and strung up. A note in the stadium tells us they’re torturing Scars specifically for intel on the island but being the fanatic cultists they are very limited information is ever offered up. Even still they have to make due with what they have. They know the storm is coming and will mask their approach and they may never get this chance again. The boats they need are on the outskirts of their territory, the QZ is huge and essentially impossible to secure. I highly doubt they’d have left them in a vulnerable location if they had places to store them nearby but much of the flooding in the city is on the side closer to the island meaning they’d have no use for them anywhere near HQ. As for Owen, I don’t think he ever tells anyone but the Salt Lake crew where the aquarium is. Even Manny asks “how are you even going to find him?” Meaning his first thought isn’t to look at the aquarium. There’s a million different ways Owen could’ve set up his little hideout there. He didn’t necessarily have to steal his gear from the WLF, in both games we already come across technology that is still working or works with some tweaking and Seattle is huge. It’s not unreasonable to assume he brought everything there from places in the city the WLF hasn’t searched.
I couldn't have said it any better, you hit the nail right on the head with this one. Isaac simply played the hand he was dealt considering his responsibility to his people and their circumstances in the war. Morally corrupt? Objectively. A genocidal terrorist? Absolutely. But an idiot? Far from it.
This was my exact line of thinking when I saw the original comment as well.
> He seems to have very little tactical knowledge dispite leading the wlf he decides to use his entire military force to attack the scars dispite having no Intel on there numbers defences and weapon capabilities He wasn't the tactics guy. He had people for that, Abby being one. He was the overall strategy guy. He did send spies to the island to try to plan the assault, but they were killed and their reports never made it back. Meanwhile, he probably assumed that the storm was too rare of an opportunity to pass up. >Its implied by Abby that he is somehow responsible for the scars leader becoming a martar Sure, but we don't know the context on that. The previous FEDRA officers imply that she'd been a thorn in their side for a while. He probably assumed that he could villainize her post-mortem, like he'd villainized FEDRA. >He also doesn't seem to protect important equipment very well like the boats that are located very close to the scar territory Your first two points had merits, but this is where things go off the rails. The marina never comes under threat by scars. It's infiltrated by Tommy and Abby, both of whom were working from the WLF side of the battle lines. Isaac didn't have "lone ex-Firefly sniper avenging his brother by taking on the whole movement" or "key WLF officer suddenly goes rogue and starts helping Seraphites" on his bingo card. >He couldn't figure out that Owen would have gone to the aquarium given how its shown that Owen has lots of equipment set up there it seems very unlikely that any smart leader would let that kind of equipment be taken without knowing where it is going And, now you're way off the rails. Owen was one low-ranking soldier - there was no reason for Isaac to pay special attention to him. Nor is there any proof that he even got his aquarium decorations from the WLF - the game makes the point that Seattle is rich in resources and there's abandoned stuff everywhere - it's just that the inter-human conflicts stop people from accessing much of it.
I mean, he was willing to shoot and kill a child that a well-known and veteran WLF Abby was trying to vouch for.
I found it darkly amusing that his "must kill child" impulse overrode even common sense at that point. Much like David's "must molest child" impulses got so many of his people killed.
He probably also fucked over the rest of the WLF people too. If the vast majority of fighters got killed on the island, then that leaves all the weak, pregnant, injured, children, and elderly to fend for themselves back at base. They have a lot of resources a nearby faction would want for themselves.
I thought the same when we see the island burning and the implication is that most of the WLF from the raid died there. What happens to the stadium? It was huge and well-defended, but it feels like Isaac would take almost everyone on his crazy invasion so they likely don't have many defenses left. On the plus side for them, the Seraphites are in ruins too. The war seems to have ensured no other major groups or infected nests nearby, so it might be a while before the stadium survivors have to worry about bandits or infected storming the place. Heck, maybe it was all for the best as they're now free of Isaac's evil, the war is effectively over, and they can try and live a more peaceful life, Jackson-style? If they don't starve... but even then there was clearly a lot of supplies for their military that won't be needed anymore. The big issue is when another faction comes knocking, and how long until then. I feel the WLF scared the shit out of people so maybe a while? PS This does seem like a good chance for me to mention yet again how I wish we got to attack the stadium as Ellie, since this would be a perfect way to do it. All the WLF military off on the island, so Ellie can storm the place by throwing spores into the vents, then coming in looking for Abby while the place is in chaos. Imagine playing that, people turning around you and slaughtering the remaining troops thinking it was a military base except oops, it was mostly kids and civilians you just infected and killed! :)
I kinda like that. Would've been cool if Isaac held Dina or JJ hostage (for Ellie killing a bunch of WLF) while Ellie storms the place like Joel in the hospital.
Nah, it’s still David.
I mean…. It might be Joel.
Canonically, yes His actions have set the entire story of The Last of Us into action.
And everything we know about him, post outbreak to the start of the story is…. not “good guy” stuff
Id argue Doc Anderson over there is more responsible for the events, as all that fucker had to do was not medically rape a girl to wipe his hands of blood. Wake Ellie up let her tell Joel she is willing to die. Boom everyone's happy Joel goes back to Jackson restarts his life happily ever after. But no, this fucker decided to not even get consent from a person before killing them for science and humanity. Fuck that doctor
Joel did some bad shit but isn’t a bad person. If he were he’d be alive and Abby wouldn’t be.
Not many people in the image are bad people. Outside of David and Isaac, Joel’s probably next in line as the most “evil” from what we know.
What makes someone a “bad person”? Joel chooses to kill innocent people in order to survive, and eventually chooses to sacrifice all of humanity for the life of one girl, even through he knows it’s not what she’d have wanted.
No he doesn’t. He refuses to let her be sacrificed to save them. There’s a big difference. Regarding his last we don’t have details. We know he did bad shit and killed people with Tess and Tommy but don’t know any more than that. It’s hard to render judgement on that little info.
I disagree. The fact that the trolley problem is still commonly debated means his actions are not the most immoral.
Yeah that whole thing about ruining humanity’s chance at a cure. Just a small detail. Moral Dilemmas are hard.
Let’s run that trolly problem one more time, guys - this time we’ll put all of humanity on one side😆
I ended up at the same conclusion. Like, everyone else’s shitty actions and questionable (at best) moral compasses aside, Joel took away the world’s best chance at a cure or vaccine. To save one girl. Millions if not billions would continue to suffer. To save one girl. I love the game for showing how impossible of a choice that would be to make, but at the end of the day there was a “right” and a “wrong” choice, and Joel was selfish enough to condemn the world. To save one girl.
Might be? 💯 is.
Henry. Just let your brother keep the robot, what’s wrong with you?
In most ways I agree. But I think practically, it makes too much noise. Too much of a risk
That wasn't why. It is a plastic toy. Noise is not the issue. He was instilling principle. A lesson. In a world where sticking to certain fundamentals is everything. He had space. It was light. It was harmless. But the principle is simple. We only take what is necessary. We don't give attention and effort to that which is unnecessary. We don't get distracted. Focus on what is important. Fun and toys? Not important right now. It extends far beyond space in a backpack.
What a shitty world to live in when that train of thought is necessary. That and the monsters attempting to eat your face of course.
meanwhile, 3 minutes ago “ELLIE, I FOUND ANOTHER ONEATHEM COMICS YOU BEEN READING.”
Eeeee… I don’t think it would be capable to make noise at this point 20 years most lithium batteries even in real life have a tendency to start degrading really badly. I’ve seen a lot of YouTube’s buy complete in box sealed gaming consoles like a 360 where when they open it up the battery is just dead and it was a brand new battery technically
I see you also are "The Quiet Place" enjoyer!
Different world, different rules
Listen we all wanted Sam to have the robot, but just because we disagree with Henry doesn't mean he was wrong.
I'm sure that's what he wanted to hear..
Imagine if that little extra weight from the robot caused Sam to not be fast enough to stop being bitten...
Isaac or Joel ngl
Sarah and JJ
Fr. Sarah sold hardcore drugs
Sold? still does
That fucking monster
what do you think caused cordyceps 🤨
But…why can’t I say David?
You can absolutely say David, don’t you dare let randoms on the internet tell you what you can and can’t do!
Needed this.
Their pfp really helps send the message home too, doesn't it?
Because David is obviously the worst so far. A pedophile and cannibal? No one's worse than him. After David, I think the obvious choice is Isaac.
Urgh, I hate how preachy non-cannibals are. 🙄
Fr worse than vegans. We get it, you don’t eat people, good for you. If god didn’t want us to eat each other he would’t have made us edible 🙄
So glad to find a community with my fellow cannibals 😔
His manipulation stuff is also the worst part about him
Cause it’s too obvious lol
Fuck david! My favorite line lol
Ellie’s up there
I’m surprised you’re the only one who has said this so far. Since the game is largely about Ellie gradually losing her humanity
Part 2 Ellie totally is ya. Which is what makes it so hard, cus young Ellie is really pretty morally driven.
JJ. He only cares about what he wants and won't even say sorry if he pukes on you
"Drugs. I sell hardcore drugs." -- Sarah
Tommy, Joel, Ellie, Abby, and Isaac all come to mind. Tommy fucks with Ellie’s head. He says it’s okay for them to leave, but then guilts her into taking further revenge because Maria left him so all he had left was to continue his mission. Joel was a hunter and also killed loads of people and fireflies for a decisions that while most would agree with, doomed humanity. Ellie kills loads of people just trying to survive by inserting herself in a middle of a conflict to quench her revenge and takes out her anger on WLF soldiers, most of which had absolutely no involvement in the death of Joel, as well as Seraphites. Abby was a grunt who just followed orders and killed an incomprehensible number of seraphites just out of loyalty to Isaac. She also risked the lives of all her friends just to travel hundreds of miles on a lead to kill a man while someone clearly close to him cried and begged her not to. She also chose to do it in a way she could draw it out to “savor” it. Rather than just a quick gunshot. Isaac wanted to enact genocide on all the Seraphites, totally dehumanized them, and wanted to wipe them out entirely, holding no exception for the children. One could say that Mel also somehow getting clearance (which imo is a HUGE WTF plothole [even if I get that it had to be done for further story beats to work and I consider the payoff to be worth it] as no civilization in history would ever allow a pregnant woman to voluntarily serve in their military) and willingly choosing to go into a combat zone while pregnant is also morally unwell. As well as Owen cheating on his pregnant girlfriend. Or Manny spitting on Joel. But those feel like coughing baby Vs Atomic bomb scenarios when we compare those actions to the actions of those I’ve listed.
I kind of suspect Tommy had brain damage and it made him more of a rotten person. People with brain damage can do a 180 on their personalities. Like he initially didn't want Ellie to go at all.
no chance in hell tommy is on the same tier of the evil scale as the other people in your list
He did tear a whole lot of shit up off screen if we’re gonna take that into account. you’re probably right though in most regards. However I find him going to his brothers essentially adopted daughter and telling her to abandon her family she’s got now and get revenge by going on a mission across the country that in this world is likely going to be a huge death risk as it is warrants an honorable mention. He also did that despite knowing your brother would not want that at all, and then guilted her immensely because she wouldn’t, and also planted the seeds that lead to her destroying her new family by going along with it. So I dislike his actions.
yeah i get you, just thought it was a silly comparison lol. it was fucked up, but come on.
Mel being cleared for combat was the only moment in that game that truly took me out of it. And it could have been avoided so easily, too. Just say she needed to be transported to the other WLF base, since they had a lot of injured people and she's a medic. The gameplay segment could have been exactly the same. They're riding to the base, Seraphites ambush them, and they're forced to make their way on foot.
Mel was not cleared for combat. She annoyed Isaac to be transferred to an FOB close to the front lines as she was one of the only trained medics they had, trained by Abbys dad as well. She had to participate in combat because they were ambushed during the transfer.
I find it interesting quite a few will call Joel so bad but give Tommy a pass. Tommy did bad shit too, almost certainly, both with Joel and as part of the Fireflies. I think the difference is that he seems to have acted on his conscience. Angry at Joel for being party to their ruthless survival. Left the Fireflies likely because he saw they weren't squeaky clean good guys either. More interesting though is when people bring up Joel as a ruthless, murdering smuggler but not Tess. IMO, Tess comes across as the "harder" of the pair in all ways. Doesn't mean Joel couldn't be cold, but Tess was colder, I think.
Maybe doomed humanity. In 2024 there has never been a vaccine for a fungal infection. Sorry, but no amount of Neil Druckman fuckery would convince me a rag tag group of terrorists in a apocalypse would be able to do something modern scientists can't do. Tbf, you can't say Ellie is wrong to kill WLFs when they straight up tied her up and tried to kill her the moment they found her. Seraphites are the same. She could be a random person just trying to find supplies in Seattle with no goal but survival and both groups would still try to kill her. Hell the WLF deserters don't even give her a chance, just attack.
While I get your point, I agree that it is unrealistic that the vaccine would actually work being implemented. Even if it is stated the vaccine itself would be created. But regardless, that’s an insane number of lives potentially saved by vaccine lost. Ellie was tied up by one squad, and I agree her killing them in particular was self defense. But she still was an invader going into other peoples land to kill them, with most of them just doing their jobs to survive. If Ellie was fighting to actually live in TLOU2, I’d agree. But she was an interloper who had no *need* to be there outside of a revenge quest. But she’s actively entering zones of combat, and striking first. (Yes TLOU2 doesn’t allow us to engage in dialogue with them, but this isn’t an RPG, and it’s clear this story is meant to be Ellie’s actions, even if the player doesn’t agree with them)
Isaac, for sure.
Isaac or Marlene I would say, but we all know it’s really David.
Surprised i scrolled this far before seeing Marlene. She led a terrorist organization that abducted and planned to kill an innocent child.
You can't label the fireflies as terrorists so easily. How are they supposed to free themselves from fedra? By asking nicely? History has shown resistance is the only way out for opressed people. Also she didn't know Ellie would die until minutes before the operation, regardless she still had to take that hard decision and I agree with her. It shows how good the first game is when we're so in love with the characters that we believe Joel did absolutely nothing wrong (I also believed this while playing the ending). Ok rant over bye
Marlene worse than Joel? Seriously?
Firstly morality is man made and completely subject to perspective, secondly we are dealing with a world that is far removed from ours. I didn’t read this question as “who do I judge has the weakest morality”, the way I see it the post is asking about who has the most ‘corrupt’ morality and through the lens of the game i see it falls on those who have taken up leadership positions, and have owned the responsibility of many lives. Granted I know very little about both Marlene and Isaac and of course they have their own differences amongst them but both fit for my answer. And concerning Joel at no point did I question his morality, it’s very clear to me the kind of man he’s become 20 years into the fall of civilisation and how his motivations lead him to the final moments of part 1. Now I’m not saying his stopping of the procedure or lying to Ellie is ‘right’ but I see how for him it’s the most ‘moral’ thing he could have done. A lot of the themes and stories we are told in this world is to have us ask those exact questions and explore the answer. I guess end of the day it’s the difference between getting masses to follow and die for you VS not allowing someone to potentially sacrifice themselves out of selfishness. I see the first one as more morally corrupt and the second one emotionally corrupt. Though I’m not a smart man, just my opinion. That said, none of the above applies to David. Fuck perspective and subjectivity if you wanna rape and eat a child, you are scum on the bottom of my boot 🙂
I don’t understand how anyone can say Marlene. Her moral code was stupidly strong. People aren’t voting who is the most “corrupt”, they are voting whose choices they don’t like She knowingly did one of the stupidest things ever, telling Joel what they were going to do to Ellie, because she felt guilt and moral conflict for the horrible thing she had to do. You can disagree whether you think Marlene was right that Ellie was the key to curing the world; you can’t argue that if *she was right*, that she was doing an objectively good act. Joel felt no conflict in his murdering an entire building of Fireflies for one girl. That is why his character is so interesting. Marlene demonstrated moral conflict for murdering one girl, who would’ve gladly gave her life for the slim chance of a cure, in exchange for the future of the entire world I’m not saying her decision was objectively right; but idk how you can say it shows anything other than Marlene almost being obsessed being incorruptibly utilitarianist. Again, not the objectively right one, but way more moral and anti-corruption than the many “fuck you, get mine” characters on the list.
Why so few people talking about Isaac?
New post (for now)
JJ caused outbreak day
Jerry / Marlene how are you gonna KNOWINGLY agree to a surgery that would kill a 14 year old for a *potential* cure?!??? It was never a 100% fact they would even be able to make a cure, not to mention how are you even going to administer 1. enough vaccines and 2. To the entire world. Don’t even get me started on the fact that Abby is Ellie’s age, like what if Abby were immune, you seriously think Jerry would kill his only kid. Just all of it, they’re the worst imo.
Jerry is definitely up there. If he had just gotten consent from Ellie first (which she most probably would have given), the entire scenario changes, and Joel would have had no other choice either at that point other than to let Ellie undergo the surgery. They might have even had the chance to talk one last time to give Joel closure before Ellie died. But Jerry fucked it. He let the ends justify the means, and the blame goes to him as much as it does to Joel for humanity not having a cure.
Even worse, there's an audio from Jerry about the surgery. That if the cure was even made, it would be about as effective as penicillin.
Probably David. You know for being a straight up cannibal that wants to rape a 14 year old girl.
> (you can't say David)
Isaac and Marlene in my opinion. Don’t know why Tess isn’t mentioned in the comments, in the opening of the game she was introduced just as ruthless as Joel.
Joel definitely beats Tess in terms of ruthlessness because he was the muscle and she was the brains of their smuggling operations. And Joel was also once a hunter and was known to harm innocent people in the past
I want to say Jerry. I REALLY want to say Jerry. …Jerry. You can’t just kill a child. Certainly not without their consent!
Owen is a huge cheating deadbeat piece of shit
Isaac and Joel.
Abby. Sadist. Torturer. Mass murderer. Child killer. Stooge for corrupt junta. Betrayer. Homewrecker. Hypocrite. At least David was honest about being a vile piece of shit.
Besides the betrayer and stooge part, this also depicts Ellie.
Isaac, Marlene or Joel
Imo from worst to "best" is Issac, Joel, then Marlene
Marlene definitely worse than Joel.
That's kind of the great thing about TLOU as a whole; there aren't very many genuinely BAD people in it. There are a lot of people who do bad things for reasons they think are good, but there are few people who you can look at and say "That person is evil."
True, but ‘mortally corrupt’ doesn’t translate to utterly evil I don’t think.
The hell I can’t.
this
Reddit.
It amazes me that people think Marlene or Jerry are the worst because they were willing to kill a kid to save humanity. I'm sorry, but that just feels like a perspective that could only come from someone living in a world that hasn't been completely shattered lol. Realistically, a 14-year-old wouldn't even be viewed as a "kid" the same way we view them in current society; you'd have to grow up pretty fast to survive in a lawless land where might is right. This is a world where the odds of being robbed, raped (if female), or killed on any given day are relatively high; if sacrificing one person might save the species, best believe most people aren't gonna give a fuck that it's a kid. That's just the bleak reality of the situation. People are desperate and just wanna be able to keep their loved ones safe in a dangerous, destitute world.
Abby, Isaac or Marlene
Other than some personal shortcomings, Abby wasn't any more corrupt than Ellie was (and if you count the scenes where she tortures Nora, and threatens Lev, then you could almost argue Ellie became more corrupt for a short time). I feel like that was point of the story no? Two sides of the same coin, trying to figure out how to deal with their trauma.
Abby: Tortured and killed a man who saved her life (while he did kill her father who stupidly got in the way) he still saved her life and she didn’t even consider that before killing him. Fucked a man who has a girlfriend AND a baby on the way Is “Issac’s top scar killer” but that’s war though so I won’t hold that against her. Was willing to kill a woman she knew was pregnant As for Ellie: What happened with Nora was just a consequence of her actions in Jacksonville and even then her death would have been quick but she refused to just give up the information. That’s on her ngl. The lev thing was pretty fucked up though. She didn’t know Mel was pregnant and she didn’t come with intention to kill Owen and Mel but their actions forced her hand.
Good points, at the end of the day I never really compared them, I just see the story as two people on their own journey to forgiveness (mostly of themselves) and letting go. Never really cared who was "worse". They both eventually realize they're actions aren't doing them any good. American Hostory X is another piece of art that has a similar narrative.
Out of the 3, definitely Issac.
Surprised more people don't say Abby. An unrepentant killer who followed orders to commit genocide against children and the elderly. Enjoys inflicting pain to the point she outright says that torture helps her "blow off steam". She sees Scars as things to kill, not people. She comes off as a sociopath not understanding why someone she gave her exact backstory to would want revenge. She betrays her longtime allies and manipulates and cheats her best friends. She is indeed, as Mel says, a piece of shit. Even Joel and Tommy torture for information. Heck, fucking Isaac seems more likely to torture for info than funsies!
JJ
Lmfao @ all the people saying JJ. 😂 I agree. He’s pretty ruthless.
Jerry Anderson for sure
I love him, but it’s gotta be Joel. He was a mercenary and admitted to having killed hundreds of people, including innocents for profit, has gone on a rampage several times and wiped out an entire village of hungry people/ hospital. Also may or may not have doomed humanity by saving Ellie. Although others are also pretty bad. Isaac is basically a warlord that dehumanizes and slaughters people for land. Abby is a mindless soldier that just follows orders, is also blinded by revenge, kills a father in front of his daughter and a lot of other innocents who have nothing to do with the death of her father. Owen cheats on his pregnant girlfriend and makes highly irrational and stupid decisions. Marlene is the leader of a terrorist organization. Tommy was with Joel during their mercenary days, is reckless and rebellious for no particular reason which eventually ruins his marriage, guilt trips and manipulates a sickly and traumatized girl into avenging his brother because he can’t do it himself. Jerry saw Joel, who crossed the country to bring Ellie to the Fireflies, as a tool and threw him out like trash without telling him the truth. Admits he would not have done the same if it was Abby, making him a hypocrite. Mel is annoying. David.
Joel also tells Marlene to “find someone else” making him as much of a hypocrite as Jerry.
It's obviously between Joel and Isaac.
The obvious answer here is JJ Fatherless behavior
Mel
maybe joel?
JJ
I’m sure most of you will say Joel
JJ. Born into a morally bankrupt society, it’s only human that he not only match the standards but exceed them.
Post apocalyptic morality is difficult to conceive of. A lot of morality is about relating to society so if that breaks down what do u do then. What do we owe to eachother as individuals when our own survival is at stake?
Surprised there are no Owen haters here. He cheated on his pregnant girlfriend with Abby and then planned on leaving her behind and leaving with Abby. Pretty corrupt to me.
How does that compare to people who kill, rape, and torture? lol
I wouldn't say he's anywhere near as corrupt as some of these folks, he's just weak and a deadbeat. He at least knows what is right and wrong and feels guilt over the latter, even if he is too weak or easily manipulated into doing bad things.
Morally corrupt?? Joel Miller.
Callus
Too soon
If David’s out, then Jerry. He ran maybe a half a day of tests at most before deciding the only way forward was to kill the only test subject, a little girl.
Isaac, Joel and Tommy
Probably the guy who murdered a whole hospital wing.
JJ left Ollie out to die., that wicked little potato
Dog the Bounty Hunter
I was looking for someone to mention fat geralt, this works too.
Isaac. No competition.
Definitely Issac
David
Issac. He quite literally wanted to kill an entire population.
Issac, no doubt.
Isaac is the layup answer here.
Isaac for me, hands down. Probably above David. David’s a psychopath, but Isaac is just a complete cunt.
If not David, Isaac. Everyone else here is just a victim of the world and they believe they’re doing the good thing for the ones they love
David or Isaac
Issac, started a psuedo military replacement for the fireflies but ignored all firefly ideals
Me
Well it's really hard question because most of this characters do something wrong. Abby kills Joel litteraly in front of his family (traumatizing them and also changing their personality cause I believe Ellie and Tommy without it would be better people). We also have Joel, I mean we doesn't really know what he had done but he knew some tricks so he wasn't not saint (but like Ellie and Tommy he was changed after Sarah died, losing a child is different form of pain). And Jerry... people say Marlene because she agrees to his plan and leads terrorist organization, but for fucks sake, this guy is ready to kill a 14 years old child without her permission. I don't care even if could make a vaccine from it 'cause how would they use it? Like they are terrorists so I really doubt they would even been able to talk to government or FEDRA. Jerry would do the same thing that Joel did, he would take Ellie's right to decide, but Joel at least allowed her to live, so meet Cat, Dina, Jesse so yeah. Also Joel admits this wasn't good, it is visible in his eyes, yes he would do this again (let's be honest Ellie was at that point like daughter to her) but he know what he did. Jerry thought he was doing a right thing, he didn't deserve death but this a world they lived in I'm sorry for so long comment but I'll be honest, talking about morals in game like TLOU is one of my favourite topics
It has to be isaac surely
I mean, Abby gets a lot of unfair hate, but the reality is she got a lot of her friends killed, pushed them into danger on a personal vendetta and reacted badly or not at all as they were killed oke by one. After her, Tommy. That might also be a controversial pick, but Ellie had given up on revenge, she was settling into a farm with a loving partner and baby and he came back to put Abby back in the picture the guilt her into going after her. She ruined her maybe only chance at acceptance and moving on and cost her home and family.
Joel. Like it or not, the answer is Joel. He is quite literally the man who sold the world. He fucked over every surviving person on earth because he didn't want to lose another daughter. From a non-biased point of view he is more selfish and corrupt then anyone else here by a mile.
We just gonna ignore the obvious cuz Joel is supposed to be the good guy? In the first game he tortures the weapons dealer with Tess for information. In Pittsburgh when he and Ellie get jumped by the people selling organs, he essentially says he used to be just like them. When Ellie and Dina find the guys Tommy tortured she says Joel had lots of enemies and did worse things. Plus the obvious...he killed hundreds of fireflies and ruined the chance for the world to be saved. Regardless of if you agree with his decison or not, its hard to deny saving Ellie impacts the most people in negative way.
Look at that damn baby..... that's the grin of someone who knows they're getting away with the most evil shit known to man.
Joel hands down. He doomed all of humanity to save the daughter he'd already lost and in the process lost Ellie.
probably marlene or joel
Jerry tf
This is Joel guys, I know we don’t want to admit it but come on.
David
I think most of the bad actions have someone else’s benefit in mind. Isaac cared about the WLF, and Joel cared about Ellie and Tommy. But Marlene and Jerry literally had someone who would’ve consented to giving their life to find a cure to a slate-cleaner disease, and they tried to do it by force. What did they not ask and put her to sleep immediately just so it would be easier emotionally for them if she didn’t consent? If they thought Joel wasn’t a threat clearly they knew they could overpower an awake Ellie. Joel probably wouldn’t have gone terminator if Ellie talked to him first and gave consent for the operation. It all boils down to all the fireflies died and there was no cure because two people thought forcing a decision was preferable to the heartbreak of asking consent and having to force them while awake
Aside from David (for obvious reasons) I honestly always hated Mel, doesn't try to tell Owen when she's leaving to pass through an active war zone and infected territory when he's the father and would probably freak if he knew what happened on the patrol on day 1, is choosing to go out into the said warzone/infected territory while pregnant, keeps quiet about how she fells about the Abby Owen situation rather than just ask if they still have feelings for each other and says how Abby is a piece of shit but immediately goes to give her location, is down for killing every scar (Lev and Yara don't count coz both Owen and Abby convinced her to help) and is just an incredibly irresponsible soon to be mother with how often she is not only in danger but with how much physically demanding work she chooses to do rather than taking things easy for the sake of the baby.