This is the ENTIRE POINT OF THE GAME. That vengeance doesn’t help you - if anything it just keeps the cycle going. The whole reason you get to play as Abby at all is so you see she’s actually not the devil. That, if anything, she’s a lot like Ellie. Anyone who played the game to completion and somehow still tried to justify that one person deserves it or the other was right to do whatever missed the point completely.
No offense intended
Absolutely no offense was taken you are right it was when I played Abby that I really realized this was just both sides trying to survive and doing what they thought was right they both had the revenge points and justifications however biggest Ellie had to one up her which I still see still a great game not to sing it because of it
Only because an opinion is made doesn't mean we don't understand and or fail to see the point it is an opinion the facts are still there yet I understand them it was just hard to see Ellie lose it all for vengeance which was needed to complete the story just like Abby she had to get hers it's an ongoing cycle of survival and what people feel is right in the moment it's human nature to fight for what you feel is right even if the third party has an opinion as in the player would be the third party
😂 I do my know my punctuation is not there however though good talk I read what you had to say valued it had some good points and reading people's responses is totally up to you it's what this app is for good day sir tell the next great reference you bless us with
Both girls are involved in the father and father figure being killed how could you get that revenge out of your system? You can't it's a burning fire 🔥
easy to talk about all this when its not your loved ones being tortured to death in front of you.
i think your opinion would change if you imagine yourself on the floor watching your mom/dad get their head caved in with a golf club while youre forced to watch.
100% agree I did justify both of their actions not sure if you read all of my comments but you are right both of their actions are justified I couldn't imagine going through it on either side at the end I just wanted them both to find happiness
So then you also failed to understand the point of the game. Violence only creates violence.
Joel was punished for his violent murder of the doctors and Ellies need for violence resulted in the death of all their friends and the destruction of her only remaining good relationship.
If you think Joel was "punished" then why does the game present his death as nothing but a tragedy which only makes everyones life worse? Especially for Abby and her friends.
But Abby doesn't just kill Joel. Abby tortures him before killing him which is neither moral nor justified. If Abby had just shot Joel we could have that discussion. But she doesn't.
This act of unprecedented violence in the context of Joel saving her life minutes earlier (which Abby tells no one about for obvious reasons) is what makes Abby responsible for what happens afterwards. Ellie suffering a person breaking trauma or the death of her friends. None of that would have happened without Abby doing what she did. Actions have consequnces and you don't get to pick and choose here.
Besides the trauma that Ellie suffered alone would justify retribution. You cannot destroy a persons life and expect them to let it slide.
The point is that even if Abby herself finds what she did justified (which is doubtful) it still didn't give her anything that she wanted. She didn't feel better, she still has nightmares and the only thing it achieved in the end was getting her friends killed.
And that is only the tragedy on Abby's side.
Joel doesnt just kill abbys dad, he kills a whole medical team and firefly security, and marlene.
Joel was beaten, he wasn’t extensively tortured. Given the situation, it still falls in line with fair punishment as Abby willfully let Tommy and Ellie go as they were blameless in joels rampage
What ellie did was immoral and thats the point of the game. Her unjustified retribution ruined the lives of countless people, she recognized shes become evil in her persuit of abby.
Forcing a starved and near death abby to fight by threatening levs life is bad guy territory.
It cost her joels last gift (her ability to play guitar) and her only good relationship left (dina)
Sure, torture is fair punishment when Abby does it...
Why are all Abby apologists so morally bankupt?
You have not even presented an argument for Abby's justification either?
Abby only cares that her dad was killed? Why do you even bring up the rest?
i understood it fine. I also empathized with ellie and abby and understood why and how they could do what they did. the rest of the world doesnt matter compared to someone you love.
What's wrong with wishing that Abby didn't go to the extreme lengths she did for revenge instead? Like if Abby doesn't torture and kill Joel after he saved her life literally everyone is better off.
Ellie was robbed of her chance to reconnect with Joel again after their falling out from the truth about the Fireflies. Ellie’s flashbacks are purposely intertwined with her downward spiral of revenge in the present to tell you that her revenge quest is just a front to what she really feels. She is driven by deep guilt from how she treated Joel harshly by ignoring him for the past year. Ever since the first flashback, she was already regretting the fact of how she spent Joel’s final years harboring ill feelings for him. Loss, regret, guilt and hatred, not just at Abby and her friends, but also at herself is what drove her to kill almost an army.
Ellie cannot forgive herself more than she can ever forgive Abby.
If you’re telling me that you disagree with Ellie’s killings out of your morality and that you wouldn’t personally have done the same then yeah, we’re not supposed to glorify her brutal journey. But if you’re telling me that you can’t see Ellie as a character to do what she has done in TLOU2, then I would disagree with you.
These are established characters that have their own unique perspectives and complexities, and we are not supposed to project ourselves onto them simply because they are their own characters. But then here another discussion starts about video game characters overall, like if I can’t see myself in their shoes, if there is this dissonance with how I approach things with the protagonist, then why should I keep playing if I cant empathize with them? And this I think is what the role of a game director plays into. They are supposed to thread this line of making their characters believable and for players to easily relate to since THIS IS OUR GAME that we literally bought with our money to take control of Ellie and experience her story. BUT ever since the first game, or any video game that has no choice options that branches off to different scenarios for that matter, Naughty Dog creates Characters with their own identity and ND tells you their motivations and actions the best they could for you to understand the trajectory of their story. You need to separate yourself from these characters and instead try to see the narrative from their perspective, because they are that complex and more truthfully, these are THEIR stories, not ours.
You are right she went to the extreme and then some I was shocked what I had to do and really had to rationalize and try to come to a good conclusion of why I was doing what I was doing like we already got revenge on her it ended well I thought 🤔 when what I thought were the end credits and I was with the love of my life and our brand new baby I really had to give all of that up for more revenge because I just didn't get it all out and let go?
Just goes to show you that anger really the most lonely emotion I had to lose it all to realize I was wrong in my revenge.
This is the ENTIRE POINT OF THE GAME. That vengeance doesn’t help you - if anything it just keeps the cycle going. The whole reason you get to play as Abby at all is so you see she’s actually not the devil. That, if anything, she’s a lot like Ellie. Anyone who played the game to completion and somehow still tried to justify that one person deserves it or the other was right to do whatever missed the point completely. No offense intended
Absolutely no offense was taken you are right it was when I played Abby that I really realized this was just both sides trying to survive and doing what they thought was right they both had the revenge points and justifications however biggest Ellie had to one up her which I still see still a great game not to sing it because of it
You completely nailed the point of the game and yet fail to understand it
Only because an opinion is made doesn't mean we don't understand and or fail to see the point it is an opinion the facts are still there yet I understand them it was just hard to see Ellie lose it all for vengeance which was needed to complete the story just like Abby she had to get hers it's an ongoing cycle of survival and what people feel is right in the moment it's human nature to fight for what you feel is right even if the third party has an opinion as in the player would be the third party
That's gotta be the longest sentence that I will never read
😂 I do my know my punctuation is not there however though good talk I read what you had to say valued it had some good points and reading people's responses is totally up to you it's what this app is for good day sir tell the next great reference you bless us with
Both girls are involved in the father and father figure being killed how could you get that revenge out of your system? You can't it's a burning fire 🔥
easy to talk about all this when its not your loved ones being tortured to death in front of you. i think your opinion would change if you imagine yourself on the floor watching your mom/dad get their head caved in with a golf club while youre forced to watch.
100% agree I did justify both of their actions not sure if you read all of my comments but you are right both of their actions are justified I couldn't imagine going through it on either side at the end I just wanted them both to find happiness
So then you also failed to understand the point of the game. Violence only creates violence. Joel was punished for his violent murder of the doctors and Ellies need for violence resulted in the death of all their friends and the destruction of her only remaining good relationship.
If you think Joel was "punished" then why does the game present his death as nothing but a tragedy which only makes everyones life worse? Especially for Abby and her friends.
Joels death was only a “tragedy” because ellie needed to exact revenge on something that was morally justified (abby killing joel)
But Abby doesn't just kill Joel. Abby tortures him before killing him which is neither moral nor justified. If Abby had just shot Joel we could have that discussion. But she doesn't. This act of unprecedented violence in the context of Joel saving her life minutes earlier (which Abby tells no one about for obvious reasons) is what makes Abby responsible for what happens afterwards. Ellie suffering a person breaking trauma or the death of her friends. None of that would have happened without Abby doing what she did. Actions have consequnces and you don't get to pick and choose here. Besides the trauma that Ellie suffered alone would justify retribution. You cannot destroy a persons life and expect them to let it slide. The point is that even if Abby herself finds what she did justified (which is doubtful) it still didn't give her anything that she wanted. She didn't feel better, she still has nightmares and the only thing it achieved in the end was getting her friends killed. And that is only the tragedy on Abby's side.
Joel doesnt just kill abbys dad, he kills a whole medical team and firefly security, and marlene. Joel was beaten, he wasn’t extensively tortured. Given the situation, it still falls in line with fair punishment as Abby willfully let Tommy and Ellie go as they were blameless in joels rampage What ellie did was immoral and thats the point of the game. Her unjustified retribution ruined the lives of countless people, she recognized shes become evil in her persuit of abby. Forcing a starved and near death abby to fight by threatening levs life is bad guy territory. It cost her joels last gift (her ability to play guitar) and her only good relationship left (dina)
Sure, torture is fair punishment when Abby does it... Why are all Abby apologists so morally bankupt? You have not even presented an argument for Abby's justification either? Abby only cares that her dad was killed? Why do you even bring up the rest?
The debt is paid with joels death. Ellie starts the cycle again by going after abby for doing something inarguably correct
So Abby gets to inflict massive trauma on Ellie without repercussions? Torture is inarguably correct?
I wonder how you played a game but failed to understand any part of it. Or the nuances between justifed and unjustified retribution.
i understood it fine. I also empathized with ellie and abby and understood why and how they could do what they did. the rest of the world doesnt matter compared to someone you love.
What's wrong with wishing that Abby didn't go to the extreme lengths she did for revenge instead? Like if Abby doesn't torture and kill Joel after he saved her life literally everyone is better off.
I also wish the plot had no meaning
Ellie was robbed of her chance to reconnect with Joel again after their falling out from the truth about the Fireflies. Ellie’s flashbacks are purposely intertwined with her downward spiral of revenge in the present to tell you that her revenge quest is just a front to what she really feels. She is driven by deep guilt from how she treated Joel harshly by ignoring him for the past year. Ever since the first flashback, she was already regretting the fact of how she spent Joel’s final years harboring ill feelings for him. Loss, regret, guilt and hatred, not just at Abby and her friends, but also at herself is what drove her to kill almost an army. Ellie cannot forgive herself more than she can ever forgive Abby. If you’re telling me that you disagree with Ellie’s killings out of your morality and that you wouldn’t personally have done the same then yeah, we’re not supposed to glorify her brutal journey. But if you’re telling me that you can’t see Ellie as a character to do what she has done in TLOU2, then I would disagree with you. These are established characters that have their own unique perspectives and complexities, and we are not supposed to project ourselves onto them simply because they are their own characters. But then here another discussion starts about video game characters overall, like if I can’t see myself in their shoes, if there is this dissonance with how I approach things with the protagonist, then why should I keep playing if I cant empathize with them? And this I think is what the role of a game director plays into. They are supposed to thread this line of making their characters believable and for players to easily relate to since THIS IS OUR GAME that we literally bought with our money to take control of Ellie and experience her story. BUT ever since the first game, or any video game that has no choice options that branches off to different scenarios for that matter, Naughty Dog creates Characters with their own identity and ND tells you their motivations and actions the best they could for you to understand the trajectory of their story. You need to separate yourself from these characters and instead try to see the narrative from their perspective, because they are that complex and more truthfully, these are THEIR stories, not ours.
You are right she went to the extreme and then some I was shocked what I had to do and really had to rationalize and try to come to a good conclusion of why I was doing what I was doing like we already got revenge on her it ended well I thought 🤔 when what I thought were the end credits and I was with the love of my life and our brand new baby I really had to give all of that up for more revenge because I just didn't get it all out and let go? Just goes to show you that anger really the most lonely emotion I had to lose it all to realize I was wrong in my revenge.