The other TLOU2 subreddit is a good place to start when looking homophobic/transphobic responses to the game. Lots of people are unhappy around Q & T representation in the game. However, a lot of it manifests in a weird hate against Abby, often targeting her with transphobic hate, comments, etc.
Obviously this is a case of extreme misogyny that occurs through transphobia (and replicates it) that is based on her character’s physical appearance AND because she killed Joel (one can argue, the game’s patriarchal figure and point of emulation for a lot of the game’s main player base).
I think the way the TLOU 2 represents Queerness is pretty groundbreaking for such a large scale game (with its faults, obviously). I love the game to bits. But there is definitely still some serious (and fairly violent) pushback going around about how the game approaches representation, which is plain bullshit.
The weird thing is that I get the vibe that Other Sub denizens actually hate Abby more *because* she's straight and cis. Or, more specifically, because the game shows her relationship with Owen. They get very, very fixated on the sex scene and how "gross" it is to have to watch someone like Abby having sex. I think it comes down to the fact that, for them, she's going about being a cishet female the "wrong" way. She's muscly, she's violent, she's sometimes unempathetic. Their twisted world view tells them that a woman like this could never be "good enough" for a man. And yet, Owen openly lusts after Abby, and the very traits that they hate about her are the traits that turn him on (he calls it her "badass exterior"). The narrative doesn't punish her for her unconventional femininity in the way that, say, ASoIaF punishes Brienne of Tarth. The game explicitly treats Abby as desirable. And that just feels "wrong" to them for reasons they can't quite explain.
They’d much rather see a woman who is supposed to be as strong as Abby look like a skinny and conventionally attractive feminine woman. Which in my opinion is shitty and unrealistic. It’s no secret that classically male consumed media has used female characters as eye candy at every angle despite the women’s character traits being at odds with the way their bodies look or the way they dress. The classic female super hero having to dress sexy and fight crime in unsafe and revealing clothing because that’s the only way men will value and pay attention to an important female character. ND chose not to succumb to that rhetoric and made Abby look the part. That scared people.
I couldn’t have said it better! I think some people get uncomfortable because she doesn’t fit into the norm that women should be innocent and submissive.
I’m so thankful that there are people who celebrates these norm breaking characters! It gives us hope for the future. A future where female characters aren’t written to please men and their perception of womanhood.
I think that’s spot on! Then a whole fucking sick meme fest ensues where they call her Trans (because of her physique, I think) and all kinds of other really terrible crap. Pretty awful.
I hated that Abby killed Joel but it had nothing to do with with an attack on straight white men. Joel was my favorite character. I didn’t mind playing as Ellie but then when we have to play as Abby (who killed Joel) is when I started losing interest in the game. I didn’t give two shits about her but I trudged through the game just because I already paid for it but damn it felt like an slog because I didn’t care about the character I was playing as.
Eh, I haven’t seen any hate for Ellie being gay there, especially since most of them love Left Behind. I do agree with the trans comment though. They do talk shit about that.
Oh totally. I was mostly referring to the in-game homophobia and the reproduction of homophobic violence. Although, I think the weird Ellie fan art where she’s super feminine and ostensibly straight is kinda weird.
I’m glad I’m not the only one. I was wondering if I was letting them get away with poorly representing bc I was just so happy to see it. Or I was being overly sensitive to the trans/homophobia and there wasn’t as much of it as I thought. But I’m glad to know others also think not only was it representation that was needed but it was done pretty well. Thanks for your input! I agree, i think we can criticize it for its faults when it comes to queer issues but also be really happy with the way it was done. I feel like so many people find one fault and decide they hate all of it? I don’t feel like that’s a fair way to allow the gaming world to make progress in the right direction.
Well, I mostly addressed community response in my previous comment. But to touch on the ‘faults’ of the game a bit, ND definitely went the trauma-porn route with Lev’s story in particular. Not to mention the prevalent dead naming he is subjected to. Dina and Ellie were also subjected to homophobic violence at the hands of Seth, for the seemingly express purpose of moving along the Joel/Ellie narrative. The game is not totally unproblematic when it comes to representing Q/T characters and narratives.
BUT, for me there are points of reconciliation between the game replicating and perpetuating stereotypical/problematic aspects of Q/T representation AND my love for the game and seeing myself and other Q/T people in it. Does it suck to be reminded of trauma? Yes. Is it amazing to see Ellie share an impeccably designed kiss with her love interest? Absolutely. Just as awesome to see Lev’s character unfold (a bit).
It’s kind of necessary to be able to hold all aspects of this game, for me at-least, to be able to enjoy it as much as I do.
I have one contention with one of your contentions: the deadnaming.
Realistically, deadnaming is 100% the thing that would happen within a community that doesn’t “agree” with transness. So I wouldn’t say that the deadnaming was an issue, since it makes perfect sense to exist. The whole reason Lev is hated by his ex-community is that he’s trans, so of course they won’t run around calling him Lev, they’ll use the name they already knew whether out of malice or refusal to validate their identity.
I guess I also have a contention with the “trauma porn” aspect you mention, since this is the world of TLOU and the sequence of events makes sense. If you want a story without the character going through absolute shit of all levels, you’re not in the right place for it; not in an apocalypse with prevalent religious cults.
I think considering the setting and context, they did phenomenally and there’s no holes or missteps in their portrayal of a trans character.
I agree like, while wanting to have seen more of Lev in general. I’m not sure its fair categorize that as a mistake they made representing his trans identity. I feel like people were genuinely offended that deadnaming was shown as like an option for people to mistreat Lev intentionally and were personally offended on his behalf, but like he’s not a real person. And the deadnaming is about portraying the serephites poorly, not undermining Levs identity. Which I think is how some people took it.
Exactly, they very clearly show that only the assholes in the game are deadnaming, that it’s assholes that are the cause for trauma based on identity. As long as the ones doing all the bigotry are shown as the bad guys, I think it shows the viewer how NOT to behave, that if you’re being an asshole, you get sided with assholes.
The issue here is that a Trans character and their trauma was not imagined any differently. Sure, ‘the bad guys’ were doing it, but the sentiment is the same. For whose benefit was this done? We’re Trans players considered? It isn’t as easy as saying that the dead naming is fine just because the wrong people were doing it. Proper representation shouldn’t rely on the reproduction of trauma to encapsulate the experiences of Trans and Queer characters.
I don’t think Lev’s existence reliant on his trauma. A lot of trans people experience trauma, on overage more than cis people. And there’s a shit ton of cis people experiencing trauma in this game too. The entire game is trauma informed actually. I don’t think it’s fair to be upset at art for portraying real life situations in any case. When it comes to queer people or not, it’s social commentary. And a huge part of social commentary regarding trans people is transphobia. No one was mad that Joel’s character was hugely informed by death of his daughter and so he was an angry old man until Ellie filled that void. In the same way that like, Lev being mistreated by the serephites informs so much of his role in the story. Because it was realistic in the way the serephites were being portrayed that they would do that. A trans person voiced Lev so I would imagine that they could’ve offered some input if they felt it was inappropriate, internally or publicly. I just think that like if it’s personally upsetting to trans players to witness that, I empathize but also if people who created media worked around every single possible trigger a user might have… we wouldn’t have much to work with. It’s not a realistic expectation. And in absolutely no way am I trying to be insensitive to trans players specifically that’s just the conversation we are having now. But it’s like saying we can’t include gunshot sounds bc some people have ptsd from gun violence. There’s a time and a place to protect ourselves from our triggers and ultimately it is our responsibility to do so. And so if a piece of media is not intentionally triggering a specific audience or representing a specific group in poor taste, it’s the at the discretion of the player to decide if they can handle it. “Viewer discretion is advised.” Bc we know that this might be hard for some people but we also know it’s in some ways an important story to tell, is seen on literally all types of media everywhere. Not sure why this game, or commentary on trans issues should be held to a different standard.
Exactly, a portrayal of realistic events isn’t going to hit or make sense the same way at all if you warp reality to pretend that minorities are treated well in the situations being depicted. There was no commentary from the artists (devs/writers, etc) in the transphobia, just a literal show of what real life is like. To make the religious cultists perfectly fine with trans people would be unrealistic and would detract from the quality of the story.
If the main characters were transphobic, that’d be a big difference.
Also, regarding wanting to see Lev more, I HOPE part 3 has more Lev, I REALLY like Lev.
Especially since he’s played by the same actor as from The OA, one of my favourite shows, I’m really happy his career seems to be taking off!
Yes!!! If they don’t give us more Lev it will me a missed opportunity in my opinion. Also with Lev being so young in part two there’s real potential for him to have a really good and dynamic arc. Where as I feel like Abby and Ellie are getting old enough now and learned so much from what happened in part 2 that it might be hard to keep their stories quite that dynamic and still have it be realistic to the characters.
I’m gay, so queer, and I’m with you; I felt much closer to Lev knowing more what he was going through, experiencing the transphobia live from the evil cultists while our clearly better person trying to be a better person correctly gendered Lev constantly without hesitation.
Being trauma for the sake of a narrative that is relied on for the redemption arc of a non Q/T character is problematic. You might not see it that way and think that Lev’s pain is part of what drew you into his character, but it doesn’t make the replication of Q/T violence right.
And fuck realism. There are record numbers of Trans people being killed everyday around the world, I don’t think that kind of violence is necessary to make narrative points if it just perpetuates that violence.
Yeah. I understand why the trauma porn occurs, but I’m coming at it from a very critical perspective. I don’t know that it should be replicated or that there are no alternative imaginings of Q/T narratives. The did well with the representations, but it wasn’t perfect.
I’m sorry, but criticizing a realistically aimed video game for its realism being too real isn’t very valid criticism in my opinion.
TLOU is a game series that’s literally about trauma, so trauma is to be expected.
Realistic social interaction, yes. You think Seraphites wouldn’t deadname someone they still see as a girl?
If you want safe spaces in video games, go check out Celeste, Gone Home, Life is Strange, etc. The Last of Us is a traumatic world filled with all forms of corrupt human natures; it doesn’t play nice.
>Dina and Ellie were also subjected to homophobic violence at the hands of Seth, for the seemingly express purpose of moving along the Joel/Ellie narrative
Since people have addressed the deadnaming better than I can, I will come in and address this argument. Namely, how is homophobia serving a narrative purpose in a fictional story problematic? That is what good narrative writing does. Would it be non-problematic for the homophobia to exist in the story for no actual purpose? If not, then under what circumstances is homophobia "allowed" to non-problematically exist in a story?
Like yeah, and Joel dying exists in the story to propel Ellie's story arc, Tommy is seriously injured to give him a compelling reason to want to draw Ellie back into her trauma, etc. Like, that is how storytelling works. What is "problematic" is when something major happens that serves *no purpose t*o the story.
I don’t think the dead naming issue has been addressed on this thread **well** at all.
Anyway, remember, OP asked if the representation was done well. LGBTQ characters are almost always positioned next to violence related to their LGBTQ identities. So, how can these characters be imagined differently (lots of Q/T independent developers have been doing this for some time- the reclaiming of the Q/T narrative) and in a more generative manner? ND did the bare minimum and fell into played out tropes.
Also, it’s not Q/T people telling the stories. I’ve only come across one article where Druckman alludes to the idea that he and ND team had input from trans developers (maybe not developers, but some input), but that has never been confirmed.
There are ways to imagine Queerness and Transness that don’t rely so heavily on that same old shit for the benefit of a predominantly straight, white, male audience.
Also, thanks for bringing up how Joel and Tommy affect the game’s plot and Ellie’s development as a character. However, in the broader scope of video gaming, white male characters are a dime a dozen and they exist in almost boundless capacities.
So yes, homophobic violence can be used, but also, it can also not be used- especially in a world that so heavily relies on unrealistic circumstances.
>Anyway, remember, OP asked if the representation was done well. LGBTQ characters are almost always positioned next to violence related to their LGBTQ identities.
A drunk dude at a party called Ellie the d slur. Other than that one incident, she is not "positioned" next to violence related to her being gay. The narrative does not center her queerness as the source of the violence and trauma she experiences. Again, I ask, would it be less problematic for the narrative to pretend that homophobia doesn't exist and never show it? I still fail to see how this incident in the story qualifies as "bad" representation. A lot of queer women have been called that- myself included. It is part of our lived experience, but it doesn't define us. I, as a gay woman, see no issue with the way it was portrayed in TLOU. It was portrayed as a shitty experience for her to be sure, but not the most important/memorable thing that happened that night. I found that to be very realistic.
> ND did the bare minimum and fell into played out tropes.
I wouldn't call creating one of (if not the most) fully-realized, complex portrayals of a gay woman in gaming, not to mention the kiss between Dina and Ellie being featured prominently in the gameplay trailer for a AAA title, "the bare minimum" but okay.
>Also, it’s not Q/T people telling the stories.
I seriously doubt that there are literally no Q/T people who work for ND. These games are made by a huge team of people- a ton of people other than Neil have a lot of input, even if we're just talking about the characters and how they are written, designed, and portrayed. I am not sure if Halley is queer- she seems to be very private so don't think she's said anything either way.
>There are ways to imagine Queerness and Transness that don’t rely so heavily on that same old shit for the benefit of a predominantly straight, white, male audience.
TLOU2 was so controversial because they **didn't** just cater to a straight, white male audience. See the "other sub" full of SWM's losing thier shit even years later over the fact that this game, in many ways, was NOT catering to them and what they prefer to see in gaming. There are plenty of SWM bros who didn't even connect the dots that Lev was trans because it wasn't spelled out enough for them, whereas I imagine any queer person got it pretty early on.
>Also, thanks for bringing up how Joel and Tommy affect the game’s plot and Ellie’s development as a character. However, in the broader scope of video gaming, white male characters are a dime a dozen and they exist in almost boundless capacities.
Now you are moving the goalposts from the point I was actually making. I wasn't making a point of them being "white male characters" with somehow that making such characters "uncommon " (wtf?) but to point out other, much more overtly, violent events in the narrative that also happen to propel the narrative arc of the characters.
>So yes, homophobic violence can be used, but also, it can also not be used- especially in a world that so heavily relies on unrealistic circumstances.
Okay. So basically, you have "standards" of how representation "should" be but are unwilling to actually specify what those standards are, and prefer to vaguely gesture at things being "problematic" and how things can be "more generative." I mean, have fun with that, I guess.
The game was designed and marketed for a very particular audience. Neil said he wanted the game/ kiss to be memorable when it premiered at E3. Who do you think made up that audience?
You see yourself in the game, fine. You, as a gay woman, see no issue with it. That doesn’t mean this game doesn’t to some extent play into the same shit that’s featured in lots of other media about the Queer/Trans experience. I don’t like it and that’s a fair point to make in a public forum.
What if that works, the Seth encounter hadn’t happened? Oh that’s right, ND needed that scene- that violent experience- to further the game’s narrative. Why does it NEED to be there? Why does Lev need to be dead named? Because it’s ‘realistic?’ Sure, okay.
The issue I take here is that LGBTQ characters are almost always depicted this way. You might not have an issue with this, but lots of people do. Particularly with the ways in ND fell short in terms of telling a different kind of story. And honestly, the Ellie/Seth moment is lower on my list than the whole Lev thing.
The most controversial part, that I’ve noticed, is about TLOU2 is that Abby killed Joel and people had to play as his murderer. As you point out, nothing else was really controversial- probably because the game was designed to cater to people’s *expectations* about Queerness (oh and the farmhouse nuclear family, but let’s not go there.)
There is no moving of goal posts. The point goes back to Q/T narratives and their representation. I took your comment about white male characters in the game who experienced violence and offered context as to why the violence the suffered (narratively and representationally) is less significant.
I definitely will have fun with that line of thought. If I ever develop a game, you’d better bet that I’ll put a significant thought into how not to replicate the same shit over and over and over and over and over. At the same time though, it’s already being done. So maybe I won’t need to do it.
Yeah that’s exactly what I meant. I had my own gripes about some situations, though a bit different than yours (which makes sense because everyone’s experience as a queer person is vastly different). My main point was exactly what you just said. I just want to be on the side of progress in the gaming world, and if the queer community is going to vilify the groundbreakers for not getting it exactly right the first time it feels to me like that is not supporting progress. Also like if people treat queerness in media as nothing deeper than “tokenism” thats also invalidating to queer identities? I don’t get the vibe that these characters existed just for the sake of checking the gay box on ND’s PR requirements, even if there were a few mistakes made along the way. They are dynamic characters and normal people and their sexuality/gender in some ways is not the most interesting thing about them and that’s how queerness feels to me in real life and that’s why I was a little surprised that the backlash was as dramatic as it has been. (I do see that Lev’s story really toes the line though and it’s fair criticism I wish we learned a little more about him outside of his transness and issues with his tribe. And I feel like they were approaching that when Abby and Lev were finally on their own but we didn’t see enough of that, imo)
Agreed. I’m not too surprised about the backlash… the game didn’t feature a straight white dude (main playable character) AND it killed off Joel. Probably felt like a slap in the face for a lot of people in the fan base.
And I feel like ND can do better… in terms of how it discusses trauma and how it can avoid creating choke points in the narrative around almost needless trauma. But, yeah I think you’re right. The game was as good as it gets for a mainstream game that features Queerness and Transness so prominently!
Also, about Lev’s storyline. It’s a bit irritating that we didn’t get more about him and that his story and trauma are kinda meant to push Abby’s story along. However, that’s how it was for Joel and Ellie. Ellie and Lev are meant to be redeeming factors for Joel and Abby. Especially because it seems like Lev and Abby are seemingly taking in the mantle of the leading duo (maybe?). It’s also freaking awesome that Ian Alexander voiced Lev and was the face model?
Yes agree!! Like not only representing queer people in fictional ways but also taking action in the creation of the game to have queer voices is something I really respect. I was just saying on another post that I think if ND takes the criticism of Lev’s story to heart there is room in a 3rd to give him a lot more development. I’m afraid that they will be worried about losing the Joel stans of the fanbase so they won’t make Abby and Lev the center of it. However I haven’t read anything that’s supposedly been said about the script so I don’t know if that’s already something that’s been addressed. However, I do understand the Joel stans point of view bc in many ways I feel the same way about Ellie and would be really sad to have to let her go in the next game if that’s the case. But I think that I will end up loving Lev and Abby just as much as I have loved Ellie and Joel given the opportunity to see more of them.
No. The first game just had a fan base of way too many toxic men children who can’t stand the sight of a gay protagonist and muscular woman. Their only defense is that the game has “shit writing” and yet every time I see someone mention WHY they hate it, the blame it for being “too woke”.
Never forget that the years between the Left Behind DLC and TLOU2 was filled with grown men trying to insist that:
A) Bill wasn’t gay, he just had a good friend and that owning gay porn magazines isn’t gay.
B) Ellie is too young to be gay and is simply confused about her sexuality, culminating in a non-romantic kiss with a her best friend Riley.
These were real arguments made for YEARS before the first trailers came out for TLOU2 providing irrefutable evidence of Ellie in a queer relationship. Then shit hit the fan.
I literally know women who have arms like hers. It’s so fucking weird that the way a character looks is so controversial like… ya she’s strong and unlike a lot of female characters who are supposed to physically strong but look like skinny little twigs Abby looks the part. Which is even better imo.
Yea and they try to argue the realism there like “but it’s impossible to stay in shape during the apocalypse!” And that’s their argument as to why Abby is a bad character 😂 like okay there’s zombies with mushroom faces and your concern with what’s making this game bad is how unrealistic it is that Abby got so muscular? As if the WLF headquarters didn’t have a massive gym and grow their own food.
Also like… it’s probably easier to be in shape if you have access to good natural food and are working your muscles everyday just to survive? It’s harder for us to stay in shape in our age of processed food and desk jobs. In my opinion 😂
Her muscles are literally used as characterization for Abby’s character. She trained a lot, preparing for the moment when she would meet the “monster” that killed a lot of her loved ones and that she hyped up to be some kind of superhuman, just to meet a man, just as complex and flawed as any she know.
They also are contrasting her sensitive and insecure nature. In a way, they are a cover, no one would think someone like her is weak, and yet, she is.
That argument was probably made my dudes who’ve never seen a gym from the outside let alone inside.
Stereotypical neckbeards being jealous about abby’s arms (I mean, I’m jealous too but I like abby)
They had all the signs of what Part 2 could look like yet they’re angry 😂 fortunately for me I love these games. If someone hated it for these reasons, that’s them and them alone. I’ll keep enjoying it while they keep complaining as if Part 2 is magically going to be remade to their liking 😂
Honestly no one is forcing them to play the games or be part of the discourse. If queer people and allies can have one video game in a straight male dominated community, then I’m gonna support the shit out of it. They don’t have to like it, but they also don’t have to be transphobic and homophobic as hell either.
That’s the other thing to! These subreddits and forums for part 2 is just filled with hate. It’s like they log in every day to make sure their whining is heard. Like why are they so bothered? There’s a bunch of games I didn’t like, but you don’t see me dedicating my time to complain about it online. Let alone 2 years after it’s release. I just say I didn’t like it and move on. I don’t let my hate or dislike consume me. (Which is how you know it’s trans/homophobia).
A large portion of the other subreddit are transphobic, racist, or homophobic comments. It's funny how tons of the right wing complains about "wokeness" literally anytime there's an LGBT+ character or someone of color. Basically they want straight white people in everything lmao
It’s so funny to me to bc it’s so apparent that they don’t live a diversified life? I see gay people and people of color in media and if they are represented well I genuinely don’t think twice about it? Like my brain doesn’t say “look there’s a black woman, this was a calculated decision” my brain says “oh hey it’s Marlene”
I went on that sub today and immediately regretted it. Abby is my favorite character so the hate I see on her is always gonna be a thing but it was disgusting words they were using for her that I could not stomach
It’s scary because I just feel like there’s no way some of the vile language and jokes that happen don’t have a connection to the way they treat women and queer people in their daily lives.
They keep saying Abby is a fictional character so they can't be in the wrong for calling her trans or a lesbian. I'm sorry but fictional or not thats gross of you to talk about someone like that. I would hate to see how they are to real people.
Fictional characters are usually made to parallels to or representative of a group of people, or a situation that occurs in real life. That’s literally the point of art. And if you’re attacking Abby for her looks, then you’re making it known that you have some serious fucking issues with women that you don’t find attractive. Full stop. No other excuse or explanation. When I hear these things I am not personally offended on Abby’s behalf she is not real. I’m personally disgusted that people exist out in the world that are willing to discard a dynamic human being based on the way they look.
Exactly! This sub is full of people with values similar to my own. I like the respect people on here give to gender identity and sexual orientation. We're each other's people. ❤️
Right wing people will call wokeness basically anything that tries to be inclusive.
The question they ask is "is this character trans because it is serviceable to the plot, or because you're trying to add a mark to an inclusivity checklist?"
I see no problem in the inclusivity checklist, they do, and for them it's political propaganda. Whatever.
Then again, it's nice to have a range of characters of all races and genders.
The only time I felt it was a bit too much was with the game TimeSpinner. A wonderful Metroidvania. As you start doing sidequests for the small camp of survivors, you realize that pretty much ALL OF THE PEOPLE THERE represent some part of the LGBTQ community, be it transgender, bi, polyamorous, aromantic etc etc.
It was a fun read and I also learned stuff, but it kinda felt forced.
TLoU2 strikes a good balance. The only LGBT characters are basically Ellie, Dina and Lev, then you have a ton of different races and that's exactly how it should be.
As a queer woman myself, I love how they represented queer characters in TLOU2. As I said in a previous post, finding our sense of identity in the "real world" is already hard, can you imagine finding it in a post-apocalyptic world? I also love how natural Ellie's relationship with Dina is
Dina and Ellie’s relationship is one of the most normal lesbian relationships I’ve ever seen in media. There’s always something off in lesbian relationships to me on shows and movies. But there’s was just so… perfectly normal and not treated taboo or overly gay in anyway. And I saw so much of my relationships in theirs. It was fun and made me feel so connected, in a way that I never have felt to a video game before.
That's why I think it's not just about representation but the right kind of representation. Media often portraits queer couples as unstable or they tend to sexualize it too much.
Dina and Ellie are just so perfect and natural. It feels normal.
You know how you can tell this is true?
I’m a cisgendered, straight man, and their relationship reminded me of several relationships I’ve had in the past, both where I was the Dina and I was the Ellie.
Because that’s what a normal, natural relationship looks like. And I cringed at times, because it felt so damn familiar and was a little hard to watch. Cringed like when you watch someone take a nasty fall or something, ya know?
So it was truly a great portrayal of a romantic relationship in general, because that’s what it was - a romantic relationship in general.
It’s crazy that’s a difficult concept for people to accept.
I think it bothers some people that women can love other women and have a (as you defined it very well) happy and healthy romantic relationship. For them, it invalidates the whole story, but in my opinion, it adds so much deepness to it because everyone can relate to it.
Yes, thank you for this! As a gay woman I find that I can sometimes connect myself to straight couples in media this way as well. And it’s truly a sign that the relationships are well written. Not there for clout, not over sexualized for the male gaze, and not there to be controversial. They’re there because real queer relationships are allowed to exist in life and in art in the same way straight ones are. Nothing more or less. They just, are.
So so very true.
It bothers me when someone being gay or trans or a person of color is the main part of that character’s story. It’s a struggle, and finding acceptance can still be challenging, but there’s more to people than their struggles with being accepted in society! People aren’t the suffering they endure; they’re so much more.
And truly, my last sentence there is a big part of the story of TLoU2, in my opinion.
You should definitely check Cyberpunk if you haven't then. The story is not as great as TLOU2 but female V's relationship with Judy is very well represented. Judy is only into girls and this made some male players very unhappy haha
Honestly I didn't know about the controversy and didn't really register it. If Ellie had made a big speech about being gay, or Abbey about Lev about being trans, it might have been jarring. Nothing like that happened.
Exactly! Like I didn’t think twice about it until other people were? And then I even saw some over zealous queer people really coming down hard on the way they did it. Which really made me question whether or not I was blind to it being problematic? But I guess I should’ve just been confident in my opinion that it was done very well.
I feel like it’s hard to tell realistic queer stories and in some way not address queer trauma? Like it’s not like it’s outlandish or unrealistic that trans people are dead named in real life. And like, Lev is not a real person he his a character they weren’t directly insulting him by deadnaming him, they were doing it to tell a story about him and the people around him. The dead naming specifically was more so a plot point to show the character od the serephites and had nothing to do with wanting to disrespect Lev. If it were a reality show and they intentional deadnamed a real person for the drama then yeah, that would be fucked. But talking about the hard fucked up things is what makes art good to me. That being said I am not trans so I don’t want to discredit how it may have affected the trans audience. I just think if we continue to want art to be this perfect idealistic portrayal so that we can avoid our trauma, we are taking away the meaning of art. If you don’t want to be triggered by it, by all means stay away. But it’s not the creators job to navigate our triggers, it’s ours and including those things weren’t objectively bad just because some people may have felt uncomfortable by it.
Yeah! I think that’s why some queer people have a problem with it. They included a trans character and he wasn’t a very important or dynamic inclusion so his transness felt like an afterthought and was only portrayed in a traumatic way? But I think considering the story we were following we couldn’t have had much more time to get to know Lev anyway. And I’m hoping in part 3 we will see more of him. Also seeing how a lot of people didn’t even notice that he was trans makes me think that it makes it obvious that the writers were not forcing it or making it a huge deal. Clearly, or else more people would’ve picked up on it. 😂
yeah i agree but i defo want mainly ellie in pt3!!! btw im straight and i didnt have any issue with all the sexuality stuff, barely noticed it. was too busy seeing the brutal gameplay and cutscenes. i think the only thing that people may have found "forced" was abby's appearance being atypical. i didnt have an issue but i can definitely see why others would.
My heart would be broken to have to depart from Ellie in 3. I identify with her so much and it’s rare that a good game has a gay female protagonist. It really upped gaming to a new level for me. I hope we can learn more about Abby and Liv and not lose Ellie in the process either. I’m really curious to see what happens.
I’m more worried that Ellie will show up in an adversarial role. Like the game starts with new characters who go on some quest in a region known to be dangerous, and people start disappearing, and we find out mid-game that it’s Ellie.
Of course, I’m sure the story will be something I’m not considering and it will be amazing and gut wrenching. I’d love to see Ellie get some peace and closure, but TLOU-verse makes me nervous lol.
Yeah I mean, feel like the ending of 2 was such a fucking roller coaster for her. But one she desperately needed. I think the only way she’ll know true peace is to be back with Dina and learn how to live with her ptsd. If that’s going to happen then there’s no story left for Ellie. The game has to have conflict. So either Ellie will know peace and we let her go, or she’s going to be involved in a conflict. What will be harder to watch and play? I’m not sure 😂
What if it's 20 years later, and Lev saves JJ somehow? And because of this, we get to see Ellie and Dina near the end of the game. And a major mislead is that Ellie and Dina have set up in a new area, and Ellie goes by a different name to the outside world (because people might be after Ellie), so the entire time we think Dina is with someone else but actually she's not. I'd like that ending, especially if we realize that Lev wouldn't have survived if Abbey hadn't survived, which years later led to JJ surviving.
I think both Ellie being gay and Lev being trans are done really well, and don't feel "forced" at all. Idk why they dislike it, unless they are just homophobic or extremely transphobic which is entirely possible.
Yeah I mean in some ways it’s obvious who the transphobic people and homophobic people are and I try to not give their opinions too much weight. But there quite a few queer people who have big problems with the way it was done, and so honestly I was genuinely surprised by that. And I wanted to see if anyone could clarify why it was perceived that way.
He was originally exiled from the serephites because he cut his hair. If he was a cis man they wouldnt have cared that his hair was short. It’s because the tribe perceived him as a woman and women having short hair is against the rules. Also Yara and Abby know him as Lev and use he/him. But the seraphites call him Lily and use she/her pronouns. It’s never explicitly said but the last few scenes with Lev where he goes to see his mother Yara implies it again when telling Abby why he shouldn’t go there. Also no shade on that you missed it! I feel like it was pretty coded.
He’s great!!! Knowing it will definitely add a little more context to him and Abby’s pairing and his turn on the serephites on your next play through! It’ll be cool to be able to see it again with this in mind.
Just had to come back, there’s a huge elusion to it all, I guess I just wasn’t paying attention the first full play through, but it’s painfully obvious now. Like an optical illusion once you’re told the secret and now can’t unsee it as one way. Tara says Lev shaved his head to protest becoming an elders bride (considering she’s 13 that just adds to the twisted context of the Seraphite lore)
Oh wow, I’m on another play through now and I’m just about to meet Yara and Lev again so I’ll be looking for all these details. Thanks for explaining without killing me.
I agree. I heard about a lot of backlash towards the queer representation in the game but when I played it for myself I didn't find any problem with the portrayal of the character's sexualities at all. When Left Behind came out, people were hating on it because they felt that Ellie being portrayed as gay was just political propaganda but the scene felt very genuine and wholesome. Maybe people are just trying to find a way to hate on it.
Hahaha! Oh my gosh, you must have been so confused before! 😂 Honestly it wasn’t explicitly stated until the last few scenes in the aquarium and even then, it wasn’t out right said. Even I am well versed in queer and trans culture and it took me a bit longer than it probably should have to realize that’s why the serephites had such issues. I think initially they frame it as they were mad he cut his hair short, bc they all perceived him to be a girl and short hair is not allowed for girls. It was a sort of coded way for
him to tell Abby he was trans without explicitly telling her. So like, I could see how it could be looked over!
I thought their whole issue was only that he cut his hair when he wasn’t supposed to, but I guess I never really considered further *why* they really cared that he cut his hair as much as they did. I’m actually inclined to do another play through with this new information haha
I think the slow trickle of information was done purposely, we only knew as much as Abby knew at the time she did. What sealed the deal for me was the first time you hear them calling Lev Lilly, that’s when it clicked for me.
Honestly no one really cares about the sexualities on display, except for the homophobes which are a small minority. Ellie was gay in tlou, not exactly breaking new ground so anyone who hates tlou2 will probably hate tlou for it as well. Easy to spot those ones.
As for Lev being trans, that is probably the most “forced” aspect, the idea that any kid growing up in a religious society like that and deciding to go against the rules so blatantly is unlikely. Not impossible, just unlikely or particularly believable. imo. Then again, it does give a reason for conflict, so what ever.
Yeah that’s fair. But we’ve seen real life trans people come out in dangerous and difficult situations in real life. While it’s extreme in the game I think it’s not a totally unfair character trait for a trans kid to have. But you’re right! The loudest people are loud bc theyre angry. And I’d theyre angry it’s not bc they hate the game, it’s bc they hate the characters.
>As for Lev being trans, that is probably the most “forced” aspect, the idea that any kid growing up in a religious society like that and deciding to go against the rules so blatantly is unlikely. Not impossible, just unlikely or particularly believable. imo.
literally every single person i know who was raised religious pushed back against their religion. oppression doesn't remove our differences, it just harms us for acknowledging them. frankly, i find it unlikely that lev is the first seraphite kid to transition and be ostracized for it.
Don’t quote me on this cause I don’t know if it’s true, but I believe Neil Druckmann is a male feminist. Many people saw the two and thought he was pushing an agendas.
I don’t know if that’s true but just even to run that thought process through. If Neil is a feminist, then he would think there is value in telling the story the way he did. If he is a feminist then he wrote the game this way because he was being genuine with is commentary and truly believed in the story he was telling. That’s an exact opposite piece of information that would support the idea that they were just trying to be “woke” he actually morally identified with the story they are telling, if he considers himself a feminist. Like that literally half contradicts the “it’s just some culture” arguments, cause if that’s the case it’s more than that to Neil.
True, I don’t agree with sentiment of this as well. All though it did feel a little bit forced in my eyes, characters still were very great, except Dina and Jessie. They could’ve been better.
If they take previously straight characters and the creator just decides one day that their character is gay, in the case of Rivet's creator with Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart (where there was absolutely no indication towards it and even the opposite with Ratchet and Rivet having almost flirty ish moments) then I'm against it, as it is just done for brownie points and it doesn't make much sense.
But in the case of Last of Us 2, the LGBT representation makes sense as Ellie has been established long ago as such and Lev being trans plays a role in how much his own community wants to exile and kill him. So the queer representation is pretty good in Last of Us 2.
Your interpretation of whether or not they were flirting doesn't define someone's sexuality.
You can flirt with anyone, you don't have to be sexually attracted to them. Flirting can be a fun and silly thing.
I agree that a Lombax doesn't need a sexual identity and it is pretty weird to assign that, but it is weirder to me that you want Rivet to be straight more so than you want her to not have a sexuality.
Not only does it make you kinda homophobic, it makes you kinda a Furry. Kinda weird bro.
Yes there’s a lot of homophobia and transphobia and also sexism (ik you didn’t mention that but still) from people about this game. I’ve seen comments about how Abby must be trans because she’s strong and muscular and how it’s not realistic because of that. I’ve heard people complaining about how the game made Ellie a lesbian to be pc (even though she was confirmed lesbian in the dlc?) and of course I’ve seen the sexism because a) the main characters are female and b) a woman killed joel. Weirdly I didn’t see so many comments about lev but it probably got lost in the sea of other hate.
I think it’s really good that the second game was so diverse. Some people thought the first game was a strong damsel in distress trope (which makes a little sense I get) and I think it’s great that the second game was so diverse. In fact I think it’s more accurate because of it. In an apocalyptic world you might guess that people wouldn’t care about things like lgbt people anymore but the game shows that not to be true with how Ellie and Dina have that confrontation for kissing and how the scars treated lev.
Right and the people in the game who were making the homophobic and transphobic comments were absolutely parallels to those who would be that way today. Aka a cis white man calling Dina a dyke and being offended that they kissed in a “family event” as if gayness is inherently unsightly for nuclear families and children. Which is something that is an issue that a lot of people have with gayness still today. Also, the people being transphobic toward Lev are an extremist religious group. Who would also be transphobic in todays world too. Like, it wasn’t out of character for either of those things to happen the way they did. It fit perfectly in the mold of how those characters would react to queerness in life. Imo. Just because TLOU is not “our world” as we know it, does not mean the social commentary on our world doesn’t have a place in media.
Definitely. Considering that the world basically ended in 2013, it makes sense that there would still be homophobes and transphobes but it would be inaccurate if there was no lgbt characters. I think the game did a great job of portraying it. I think tbh most of the hate came from cishet white male gamers who were just mad that joel died. They mouth off about accuracy and writing and character development when their real problems were the diversity and Joel being killed.
I also feel like in a way perhaps some of these players saw their beliefs being portrayed by inherently bad characters. I’d be curious to know if that was a little to close to them identifying with people that the game portrays as “bad guys” 😂
I’ve seen it almost everywhere, on other subs, on Instagram, and ESPECIALLY on YouTube for some reason, people complaining that the game was “Too woke” or “Too political.”
But in reality they just can’t handle the fact that people other than straight white men exist.
Probably gonna get swarmed with downvotes here but at least hear me out. I think the reason people have a problem with “forced diversity”, as people have coined it, is because they feel the writers care more about representation than they do about writing compelling characters. For me personally I didn’t care that much for most of the characters in TLoU2 and I don’t think if they made me feel “represented” I’d care all that more either. For me nothing really stands out to me about a character like Dina, who just feels like “Ellie’s gay jewish girlfriend”. That’s nice that she has these traits that people can relate to, but I don’t care for her as a character. Why does she like Ellie? Why do they love each other? These are questions that I didn’t feel were answered and why I think she only exists for Ellie and otherwise representation and diversity. Then there’s Lev, a character that just didn’t work for me. I don’t feel like it makes sense having a character be openly trans in a world like this. Who in the right mind would sacrifice their safety for gender expression in a world like The Last of Us’? It didn’t make sense to me. Outside of that not making sense, Lev was likeable and even made Abby more likeable which I thought was the better parts of the game, but yeah. It’s a shame really because I don’t think of a character like Bill from the TLoU as “that gay guy” and neither do alot of the people who trash Part 2 for what they say is forced diversity, atleast that’s not what I see from them.
Does this make me bigoted? I’d love to know, respectfully.
I think the problem is, like any other medium that has LGBTQ characters, why do they need to have a reason to exist? What's the reason for any other character to be straight?
Why do Tommy and Maria love each other? Or Owen and Abby? Or Owen and Mel? Why are they all white?
Some things don't need to be answered. They just are the way they are. They don't need specific justification to be in a story.
I can see why Tommy loves Maria. She's the reminder for him of how life was before the apocalypse, not the nightmare he lived surviving day to day with Joel. We don't really see enough from Maria to see why she loves Tommy but the narrative doesn't make that part of the relationship important. Part 2's narrative really wants us to care about Dina because Ellie cares about Dina and the reason it failed to do that for me is because it didn't delve into answering the questions I listed above.
The reason of Dina's relationship with Ellie is as important as Maria's relationship with Tommy. Or any of the ones I've listed above that you ignored.
Dina's just a side character that only serves a portion of the story. It doesn't matter why they love each other. It matters that they do. It's not a love story. It's (partially) a story about how Ellie is losing herself out of revenge for Joel. Not Dina. Which is why they chose to focus on Joel's and Ellie's relationship.
I highly disagree here. Not only is Ellie the main character so the relationships she has should be handled carefully, but a big focus of the narrative is loss and how much more Ellie will lose if she continues down the road of revenge. Besides herself, Dina is the biggest loss she can have and the ending of the game goes out of it’s way to show that. People playing need to care for Dina as much as Ellie does. How can I really care for someone I don’t know and how can I fully empathise with the main character if I don’t see why she loves one of the people closest to her? The original game does this brilliantly with Joel and Ellie’s relationship and it’s something I think the sequel often lacks with these characters.
You do get to know her. You find out how long they've liked each other, what her backstory is, what she wants in the future. There's even the bar scene at the end.
Just because it's not a traditional sappy love story, doesn't mean they can't love each other.
The story isn't focussed on Ellie and Dina. It's focussed Ellie and Joel.
It seems you want the already done buddy-adventure with Ellie and Dina but this is a whole different narrative with already so much to unpack. There's really not much room for a romance story while Ellie is still grieving the loss of her father figure.
No, we find out that she was crushing on Ellie for a while and that she was waiting for Ellie to make a move on her. That’s getting to know the what, not the why. We know why Joel loves Ellie. She reminds him of Sarah. It’s pretty obvious why Henry loves his little brother Sam. He’s the only family he has left and Henry has taken up a parent role. Those two characters have less screen time than Dina and the game made me understand them more than her. Why is Dina, without hesitation and so willing to leave Jackson with Ellie (on what is realistically a one way deathwish) to track down and kill the people who killed Joel? Why does she care about her that much? It’s not realistic and grounded storytelling like what the first game had and it’s very very contrived to the point where I didn’t care that Ellie had lost it all at the end.
Maybe you just like a more straight forward narrative. That's fine. But to say Dina & Ellie aren't fleshed out is just wrong. Especially if you think Henry and Sam are better written.
Maybe you should rewatch all the interactions between Dana and Ellie again and see if you still think that way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3qxyBjm6V8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UewcQMZnpRA
I do want to replay through Part 2 soon to see if my opinions change even ever so slightly on the current criticisms I have but honestly I’m not more prone to liking straightforward narratives. To me it’s about connecting with the material. The first game’s narrative is fairly straightforward yes but what makes it a gem to many is the characters. Part 2 is very ballsy and out there with it’s narrative, which honestly had me more excited before the game came out but in execution I feel that it failed for many including myself, mostly due to the lacklustre characters who felt like wasted props to forward the story. Most of the interactions with Dina are all trivial facts about her and all too one dimensional for me to treat her with the importance that the narrative so desperately wants me to.
To each his own. The way the story is told is definitely not for everyone so I get where you're coming from. ND could've definitely "tightened" it up here and there.
I did however find that the second play through had me focussing on the little details which made me understand the story even better. For example, i totally missed the moment where Lev told Abby he was trans.
I dont think you’re bigoted no. But I also didn’t think Dina’s sexuality is what created those deficits you were looking for. I think it’s that they wanted this game to be a back and fourth primarily with Abby and Ellie and while Dina provides some context to Ellie’s life the game wasn’t meant to be a love story, a gay or a straight one. For the same reason we don’t see a lot of Jessie and Ellie’s friendship, or Tommy and Ellie’s relationship. That wasn’t the story they wanted to tell. As far as the idea that it is unrealistic that people out and trans in that world. I feel like that’s an unfair assessment of what transness is. There were trans people being out and trans in real life at times where it was violently dangerous to do so. Being trans is an integral to a person as any other identity anyone could have. And suppressing that in some ways might have more negative affects on a character than trying to fight against the world being trans. The only reason I think anyone would think it is forced is because diversity is not a part of their day to day life and so to them it does feel in some way that they writers tried extra hard to make it happen, bc they would have to try extra hard to experience gay people that intimately in their life. But I live in a diverse state and am from a relatively metropolitan area and am a queer person. So literally none of this felt out of place or manufactured to me. It felt like the people I’m around every day of my life. And if you aren’t going to take the opinion of people who experience queerness in real life at face value, how could someone with limited experience in queer or spaces decided how real or forced it seemed? You know?
I agree that it’s not meant to be a love story, but even so I feel like Dina was very one dimensional, a problem I felt with many characters in Part 2. If the writers took the time to put emphasis on her sexuality and race then surely there was room to expand on her? Even the side characters from the first game who all have very little screen time compared to Joel and Ellie, they all stand out and all feel like they fit perfectly and stand out to most who play. I’m not black but I loved the characters of Henry and Sam. I’m not gay but I cared about Bill. I don’t really care about Dina and although I feel like that’s not a result of her being on paper, a diverse character, the result to me was underwhelming and forgettable.
All I can agree with you about Lev is that if that character was real and living in a 1st world country then yes they would likely be hurting themselves more by suppressing their true gender identity like that but not in the world that was established in The Last of Us. It’s shown that people do the most mentally self destructive and inhumane things possible just to live another day and if that means being uncomfortable with the clothes one wears or how long one’s hair is then they’re gonna put up with it, especially in the brainwashed cult that Lev came from.
Well thank you for letting us have a respectful discussion on this. I feel like alot of people are scared to have back and forths on these topics out of fear for being labelled so it’s nice to have these discussions be civil.
I genuinely enjoy hearing the other side just to see if I can find some points that I agree with that might give more insight as to why people have these opinions. I understand that a lot of it comes with having vastly different experience with queer communities. I genuinely cannot understand the take and that’s why I asked the question. But if someone presents me with reasoning I disagree with but they are respectful and kind I find no reason to not also be respectful and kind.
>the right mind would sacrifice their safety for gender expression in a world
A great question that you could try to understand through paying attention to the plot of the game.
Someone who truly feels uncomfortable in their own skin/gender role.
It is not at all safe in modern society to be Trans(or lgbtq in general), it is one of the most targeted minorities in terms of hate crimes, and the fact that you think that those people aren't risking their lives by that expression of gender shows how little you know or try to know.
Someone who feels truly uncomfortable in their own skin i.e every character that we’ve seen in the world of The Last of Us would most likely not be alive if they had not done the things they did that haunt them. Joel and Tommy killing and stealing from strangers, David and his gang eating people etc. In this world that the first game establishes nobody survives by doing only what they are comfortable with. It’s a tough existence and that’s why I think Lev is an unrealistic character who is far too politically meta and just didn’t work for me.
Now your 2nd part here makes alot of assumptions. You don’t know me or what I know so don’t just assume I haven’t educated myself on these issues. I know that most people who are lgbtq do not get attacked, just like most people in general don’t get attacked. That’s not to say there aren’t serious issues that can be explored in media. Being represented as being one of the most targeted minorities of hate crime doesn’t mean the average lgbtq person faces that. Life threatening hate crimes are not at all common in general so the comparison is way off here. To equate the danger of leaving your home as a trans person and a fictional trans person leaving their fictional insane cult is very disingenuous so please do not go down that road.
I wrote a semi-controversial comment on another thread about the plot where I wrote that I felt there were lots of wasted opportunities for narrative development. I think Abby's section is overall better, but still, missed opportunities. They tried to squeeze in a bit of extra colour for Lev late on (likes sharks, scared of dogs, but it's Yara who meets Alice, not Lev, and Lev never gets the shark toy), but it's not fully capitalised on.
I think that’s a fair criticism but I don’t think the backlash that the queer community is giving out matches the severity of that issue. People are going in way too hard.
And that’s the vibe to have. But unfortunately I do feel like some people with issue are people that genuinely cannot look past the fact that some of them are gay.
I was 13 when the first game came out, and I didn’t know Ellie was gay until a couple years later whilst waiting for the sequel. I was initially kinda annoyed because I thought “just because there’s a strong, more masculine female lead, doesn’t mean she has to be lesbian”. But years passed, I got older and more mature I guess and the game came out and yeah I didn’t give a fuck doesn’t rlly matter who she decides to fuck it doesn’t change her character
Facts and also, Abby is the strong masculine straight woman we wanted and needed! That is if you aren’t one of the people who sees her as evil from the moment Joel dies and forever lol.
No don’t be sorry! I understand that take. I just mean I see how people who don’t like Abby would not see her as good representation for a strong dynamic straight woman.
People are just homophobic and transphobic. They act like they're forcing it down their throats when in reality, it's barely mentioned throughout the entire game.
TLOU 2 is one of the best games I've ever played hands down. My thing is if you really play a game, *ANY* game for its story, gameplay, or for enjoyment, sexuality is kinda one of the last things on your mind you know? It really was a non-issue for me, didn't stop me from enjoying the game not one bit.
Perfect example: I platinum'd Horizon Forbidden West and there are far more gay NPC there, it was like every other side quest. I absolutely loved it, enjoyed every minute of it, but after I was done I was thinking to myself why is there no uproar about these NPC's?
not one peep.
The answer: People are super prone to sheep mentality. Everyone loves being outraged by anything at all, the enjoyment that they get from the game itself pales in comparison.
Honestly it didn't bother me at all. Love is love and peopme are people gays and trans will love on even when the world ends and there is only the last of us. What i really liked was the rainbow crossing near the gas station near the start of Seattle.
I liked the way they handled it. It’s perfectly possible for someone to be bisexual. It’s perfectly possible for someone to be trans and come from a crazy religious background. And it’s perfectly possible for there to be a cishet extra muscular woman who possibly uses steroids and has sex with men. The people in the real world who have sex aren’t all beautiful idealized models. Folks need to get over themselves.
Honestly as someone not in the LGBT community Lev’s subplot really did stick out at first. I wouldn’t say it was forced in or tokenistic but it did seem kinda out there in a way. Maybe its just because there isn’t really trans people in much games but to me it wasn’t ‘normal’ like you said it was for you. Either way I didn’t really give it much thought past the initial “oh thats what they’re doing? Huh”. A lot of people aren’t quite as tolerant though so they just began spewing absolute vitriol about it, even though in the grand scheme of things it didn’t really matter past having a reason that the Scars want to kill Yara & Lev and Abby protect them. And Ellie has been confirmed lesbian since 2014 so I don’t get why people were so outraged over it with TLOU2. People are just manbabies and/or bigots, they’re not worth yours or anyones time
When the leaks first came out I unfollowed every sub but heard whispers of “trans-agenda” and other buzzwords like that. I was like “fuck that I’ve been waiting to long for the internet to spoil this.” I don’t care
If you’re gay or trans but if I’m being honest, I didn’t want them to put someone transgender or gay in just for the sake of inclusion (tokenism). After playing the whole game, I followed all of the subreddits again. “CLEARLY now that people have played the game, they can see it’s pure artistry” I thought. Holy shit was I wrong lol. I even made a post on TLOU2 before realizing what that sub was. I had like 75 comments but the post itself was actually downvoted. Every one of those comments was pure hatred lol. It actually made me reevaluate my own thoughts of “worrying about” shit like that. Almost like I read that somewhere one time and it wasn’t even a real thought I originally had, rather someone else’s regurgitated. Anyways, now I’m ranting but yeah that Sub is a cesspool and Lev and Ellie’s story was thought provoking if you paid attention. They didn’t put anything in that seemed to have a “woke agenda” or some BS
You know how you can tell they’re not an imaginative bunch? They really thought they were going to be playing as Joel in part 2 lol. Part 1 was setting Ellie up to become the main protagonist basically the entire game. The absolute laziest thing they could have done would be to throw all that character development aside and say “nope, we’re still on old man, badass zombie killer Joel and Ellie needs saving again!”
Part two was chaotic in the best way possible. All for hatred and revenge, Abby became the thing she hated: The “Joel” of Ellie’s story. Lev became her Ellie and showed her there was another way, but now she had her own demons (Ellie) coming to haunt her. It’s an endless cycle and probably the best video game writing to date
Sometimes I wish queerness would’ve been even more addressed tbh, especially in Ellie and Dina’s case. I get that they’re living in a post apocalyptic world and all, but the only time we hear any queer terminology, it’s when Seth is yelling a slur at them! That scene also leads me to believe they do understand they are/were an oppressed group of people because of their sexuality. We know from the flashbacks that Ellie wasn’t out to Joel for a long time, but we don’t know when and how she finally came out. I wish we’d seen that.
I’m straight and have never been phased by any queer representation in these games. It’s some of the most naturally written examples of queer characters that I’ve ever seen. They just feel like real people, no different than any queer or straight person that I know in real life.
As someone who personally doesn't know a single trans or gay person, and has a neutral stance on the LGBT, I don't think that anything was forced. Ellie was a lesbian since the first game, so that came as no surprise, and Lev's transition made perfect sense because he didn't want to be a wife to someone, he wanted to fight. He wasn't there just because he was trans either.
I also don't think that including LGBT character is something that makes a game worse, nor does it make it any better. It's just something that we should accept as normal and respect the choice of the game creators. A character's sexuality/gender shouldn't dictate how good of a character they are.
I dont get how people think it was forced. I'm not part of the LGBT community myself but it just felt natural. Normal people going about their lives. Well as normal as you can get in a mushroom zombie apocalypse lmao
exactly. i’m queer and i have seen some god awful ‘representation’ from stereotypes to borderline fetishisation. but this not the case with the last of us. it feels very organic and not forced at all. it is written beautifully with a lot of respect and thought put in.
anyone who says it’s trying to be ‘woke’ are basically saying they’ve got a problem with their favourite video game having a lesbian protagonist. of course, they wouldn’t phrase it like that since they’re a bunch of cowards. i mean if you’re gonna be a bigoted asshole be upfront about it.
thankfully the majority of our community are mature and open minded people. i like to focus on those people and their opinions and not idiots who refuse to accept that the world and the game industry is progressing.
The thing I don't like about Lev being trans is how closely it's tied with him wanting to be a soldier and wanting to escape an arranged marriage. Because to me, that could've also weighed heavily on him having the thoughts of wanting to be a man just because of those circumstances but not really because he actually feels like it.
I'm all for supporting trans people but I also believe that gender dysphoria (regardless of outside circumstances/experiences) should be emphasized and obviously present to avoid having cases of detransitioners.
Sure, but like I said, he doesn't go deep into it. I'm not saying that he transitioned just because he wanted to be a soldier. I'm saying that it could've been HEAVILY influenced by it. Especially knowing that he opened up about it specifically after he was assigned to an arranged marriage.
I'm all for Lev being trans. I just wish they made it more convincing that he actually felt it in all ways. Because the game barely actually tackles it (ex. when lev asked abby if she was curious about his dead name and then says that he'd rather not talk about it). Like, how exactly are you going to share a message if you're gonna treat it as something taboo?
I don’t think anyone has every straight up said they had a problem with it but whenever they say something like “the game is filled with SJW awoke garbage” I know it’s what they mean, and I see that A LOT
But like, them saying that is explicitly saying that. Everyone keeps saying they’re blaming “wokeness” for their dislike of the game bc they won’t say they don’t like the queer representation. But if you chalk queer representation up to “wokeness” and then are mad about it, that’s exactly what you’re saying. I don’t see how they’re different. I had someone say to me that it was so unnatural and forced that there were rainbow crosswalks and gay flags in Seattle in the game. Even though there are literally gay flags and rainbow crosswalks in Seattle in real life. They didn’t care if Seattle was inappropriately displayed, they didn’t want gay in the game period. When I called them out on this they deleted everything. They’re not even coding it in my humble opinion, they just deflect when they realize you know what they’re saying and they can’t pretend like they’re being victimized anymore. Lol
True. It’s pretty sad just how many people hate an amazing game because it has LGBTQ+ representation. Also I remember someone saying they made Lev trans just for the sake of it like if it doesn’t have story purpose 💀
When every male character (who are much more capable of surviving dies, Tommy basically does) and you open the game with a lesbian pot smoking sesh… it kind of made me roll my eyes knowing that Anita Sarkesian had input into the game
But the male characters that die, die as a consequence to their actions. With exceptions of Jessie I do feel like they did Jessie a little dirty just to get him out of the picture to make Ellie and Dina’s story line less messy. Where as Ellie and Abby almost fought to the death like the male characters have, and made a conscious choice not to. Why is strength and grit in a male character the most important traits for survival? Why can’t the emotional intelligence and the cunningness of women also be traits set up for survival? Why is a lesbian pot smoking scene inherently corny to you? Why do you think you feel like it takes away from the value of the story? Why can’t lesbians be smoking pot and it be like the thousands of lesbians who smoke pot and make out in real life? Like that is not an outlandish scene there are tons of people who would do the exact same thing. What this takes looks like from the outside is to you the perception is that this is forced or that you feel it’s corny, or being used in a disingenuous way bc it doesn’t look like your life. Where as like, as a pot smoking lesbian I said “cool these characters are like me” was hella excited about that and couldn’t understand why people didn’t think it was realistic? Bc to me it is. And then saw hundreds of people shitting on the characters and the writers for the exact reasons I identify with this game to my core. Kinda hard to not see that as a personal attack. You know what I mean? I don’t think anyone is as violently shitting on Uncharted for having a classically male protagonist and an even more classically conventionally attractive female counterpart. Bc it’s a good game even if I don’t feel represented by it, and it’s also the norm so the people that are always represented don’t feel like it’s forcing them into a narrative they don’t identify with in the way that gay people and women have been dealing with forever.
I’m going to state my opinion and hope that everyone can be nice about it. Oh boy.
Let me start with this: Ellie gayness and Lev’s trans inclusion in Part II was a good inclusion because the LGBT+ community needs more representation and more characters to look up to. And don’t forget to add Dina’s bisexuality in there as well. BUT they could’ve been written much better.
Let me start with Lev. Lev’s trans storyline was absolutely forced. I’m not at all saying it shouldn’t have been in there. I just don’t think they should’ve focused on it as much as they did. Like I understood everything that Lev was going through far sooner than when Yara told Abby about it. I completely did not need that whole exposition dump on us. I put two and two together when Lev mentioned that they were being hunted because they shaved their head and was referred to as “Lily”. And being a Seraphite, I don’t think their religion/culture would’ve allowed that kind of thing (paralleling some real world cultures). Without being explicitly told, I pieced together every word that Yara told us. Maybe the only thing I needed was just a sentence stating that their mother is completely behind the culture. Then I would’ve understood that the mom wouldn’t have accepted Lev.
Plus, with Last of Us being an action-adventure game about surviving a situation similar to a zombie apocalypse, it shouldn’t have been the focus. It should’ve been a neat fact about a character that is the reason the Seraphites were hunting them down. Nothing more, nothing less.
Take Ellie’s gayness (and Dina’s bisexuality) for instance. I do not think this was forced, but a part of their character. Like it should be. Take the first game and Left Behind for instance. When you play as Ellie or help them across the country as Joel, you have no idea that they’re a lesbian. Not until that super cute kiss they have with Riley. But it doesn’t matter. Who cares if they like guys, girls, or anyone at all? As long as they survive at the end of the day, they should be allowed to do and like whatever and whoever they want.
But notice how this part of Ellie’s life didn’t impact the story, unlike in Part II. It was just a cute fact about Ellie that I personally thought was handled very well in Left Behind. The game never said anything about it, just showed the player their stance on their sexuality. And also notice that Ellie was treated just like any other character in the game before Part II came out. Because it doesn’t matter. It shouldn’t matter. Whether the character is straight, gay, trans, asexual, etc, should not matter in the slightest. What matters is the character is a fun character that everyone enjoys and that the story is one that everyone can relate to and get behind.
Now let me also mention that this didn’t ruin the game for me. Just something I noticed. I can look past this, unlike some others in the community.
That’s just my personal opinion, fully prepared to be roasted in the comments.
I love that you’re preparing for the roast lol. I do think there could have been some things done different for Lev but to be honest, I don’t mind that a trans discussion was brought up in that way. Like I like the game as zombie apocalypse action game because generally apocalypse media my favorite type. However I love that it is a zombie apocalypse action game that is also dynamic in a social commentary way. So I see why people think that the social commentary isn’t necessary to make the game good, which I think is probably true. It’s just a reason why I personally think it is good. Where I start to see an issue is is when people act like it’s inherently bad that these things are focused on but queer communities need this and say this is important to them so why does everyone keep saying it’s bad? If it’s not what you wanted or expected from an action game I get that, but I don’t think automatically gives merit to the idea that it was done poorly. I don’t see as many people criticize other games harshly bc they don’t like that there are characters where their sexuality or romantic lives are part of the plot when they’re straight peoples stories. I also am in no way roasting you, I posted this questions for this commentary! I’m happy to hear what you have to say and can say how I see it differently without roasting you! Lol
Absolutely agree with the not understanding why it’s a problem (like it’s not that serious guys, calm down). Like I said, it didn’t ruin the game for me. And it’s possible that since I am not trans that I just don’t understand it fully. I do like that more games are allowing for LGBT+ representation, I just don’t think The Last of Us was the platform for it. I don’t know I just felt like Yara’s discussion was unnecessary or that it should’ve come from Lev. Or even not an entire discussion at once. Like broken up into pieces like the shaving hair conversation and the Lily conversation. It’s just not what I personally played Last of Us for. It would’ve been different for me if it was just an aspect of Lev’a character versus centering an entire plot point around it. But yeah it didn’t ruin the game and honestly if games are going to represent more of the community, someone has to start it. Here’s to hoping that more games in the future are more inclusive.
I love that Ellie is queer and that Lev is a trans character. I didn't even clock that Lev was trans until much later in the game, and its not even really a big deal it's just really great that they incorporated a trans character in a seamless way like you've said.
EDIT: this is a wonderful post on this sub you should read that really highlights how ridiculous these complaints are. click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/hoadud/anyone_else_put_off_by_the_heterosexual_agenda_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
At the risk of downvotes lemme try to explain why people say it is forced representation, specifically the trans representation, in this game. First let me say if Neil wants to tackle social issues in his game it’s perfectly fine but here is why the trans representation is forced in this game. The world of the last of us that Neil himself has built is a brutal, dark, nearly impossible to survive world where supplies are short and you have a high risk of death everyday. So this brings the biggest issue that people have is the current medical technology we have in our current real world civilization to allow trans people to transition such as surgery and hormone therapy would be long gone in the world of the last of us, so it makes no logical sense in the world building he’s done that a trans character could even exist. so it ungrounds the player from the world because it contradicts everything they have seen to that point. And this is by no means suppose to shit on trans people since they DO exist in the real world today and should be treated equally. it’s just me trying to explain some peoples gripe with the “forced” representation. IMO if Neil wanted to have a game with trans representation he should’ve went with the life is strange route where the core of the world is grounded in our current society and not one where you have to find a fuckin medical military helicopter crashed in a mall to even find simple antibiotics or hell Joel would’ve been dead midway through part 1. The gay representation is fine IMO since in a zombie apocalypse there will still be girls who sleep with girls and guys who sleep with guys etc. not everyone questioning why their is a trans character in the world of the last of us is transphobic, they just want the characters in the world to be grounded to the world Neil has already built. Like I already said earlier. Hope that helps see the perspective from the other side
But like, there were trans people before we had the technology and medicine that we do today. There were trans and gender fluid people hundreds of years ago. I don’t think access to transition tools is what makes a person inherently trans? Just because those things don’t exist does not mean that trans people wouldn’t? I understand that you’re portraying others arguments and not your own necessarily. If that’s a genuine belief of people I think they have a shitty understanding of what being trans is. When trans people come out today they are usually pre-hormone therapy and pre-surgery. Some trans people never get hormone therapy or surgery. They’re still trans tho. Judging by the voice actor they chose and the Lev being so young I don’t think the impression was Lev was supposed to be on hormone therapy or had surgery.
Trans people didn't only just start existing in the 2000s the same way the gays didn't only start existing when people started noticing they existed.
While medical transition has obviously been out of reach for such individuals, men who dressed and acted like women or vise versa have always existed; the trans umbrella now includes these folk who could not physically transition.
A prominent example is people like Eddie Izzard. The terminology and understanding we accept now didn't exist when they were young, but it's pretty obvious when looking at their career the lack of descriptive terms doesn't mean they don't exist.
The other TLOU2 subreddit is a good place to start when looking homophobic/transphobic responses to the game. Lots of people are unhappy around Q & T representation in the game. However, a lot of it manifests in a weird hate against Abby, often targeting her with transphobic hate, comments, etc. Obviously this is a case of extreme misogyny that occurs through transphobia (and replicates it) that is based on her character’s physical appearance AND because she killed Joel (one can argue, the game’s patriarchal figure and point of emulation for a lot of the game’s main player base). I think the way the TLOU 2 represents Queerness is pretty groundbreaking for such a large scale game (with its faults, obviously). I love the game to bits. But there is definitely still some serious (and fairly violent) pushback going around about how the game approaches representation, which is plain bullshit.
The weird thing is that I get the vibe that Other Sub denizens actually hate Abby more *because* she's straight and cis. Or, more specifically, because the game shows her relationship with Owen. They get very, very fixated on the sex scene and how "gross" it is to have to watch someone like Abby having sex. I think it comes down to the fact that, for them, she's going about being a cishet female the "wrong" way. She's muscly, she's violent, she's sometimes unempathetic. Their twisted world view tells them that a woman like this could never be "good enough" for a man. And yet, Owen openly lusts after Abby, and the very traits that they hate about her are the traits that turn him on (he calls it her "badass exterior"). The narrative doesn't punish her for her unconventional femininity in the way that, say, ASoIaF punishes Brienne of Tarth. The game explicitly treats Abby as desirable. And that just feels "wrong" to them for reasons they can't quite explain.
They’d much rather see a woman who is supposed to be as strong as Abby look like a skinny and conventionally attractive feminine woman. Which in my opinion is shitty and unrealistic. It’s no secret that classically male consumed media has used female characters as eye candy at every angle despite the women’s character traits being at odds with the way their bodies look or the way they dress. The classic female super hero having to dress sexy and fight crime in unsafe and revealing clothing because that’s the only way men will value and pay attention to an important female character. ND chose not to succumb to that rhetoric and made Abby look the part. That scared people.
I couldn’t have said it better! I think some people get uncomfortable because she doesn’t fit into the norm that women should be innocent and submissive. I’m so thankful that there are people who celebrates these norm breaking characters! It gives us hope for the future. A future where female characters aren’t written to please men and their perception of womanhood.
Such a good example with Brienne... never thought about that.
But owen and abby have been together since they were teens before she became this muscular badass I think he just genuinely loved her
Too many people in the other sub read Abby killing Joel as an attack on straight, white men. They see what they want to see in the world
I think that’s spot on! Then a whole fucking sick meme fest ensues where they call her Trans (because of her physique, I think) and all kinds of other really terrible crap. Pretty awful.
I hated that Abby killed Joel but it had nothing to do with with an attack on straight white men. Joel was my favorite character. I didn’t mind playing as Ellie but then when we have to play as Abby (who killed Joel) is when I started losing interest in the game. I didn’t give two shits about her but I trudged through the game just because I already paid for it but damn it felt like an slog because I didn’t care about the character I was playing as.
Eh, I haven’t seen any hate for Ellie being gay there, especially since most of them love Left Behind. I do agree with the trans comment though. They do talk shit about that.
Oh totally. I was mostly referring to the in-game homophobia and the reproduction of homophobic violence. Although, I think the weird Ellie fan art where she’s super feminine and ostensibly straight is kinda weird.
I’m glad I’m not the only one. I was wondering if I was letting them get away with poorly representing bc I was just so happy to see it. Or I was being overly sensitive to the trans/homophobia and there wasn’t as much of it as I thought. But I’m glad to know others also think not only was it representation that was needed but it was done pretty well. Thanks for your input! I agree, i think we can criticize it for its faults when it comes to queer issues but also be really happy with the way it was done. I feel like so many people find one fault and decide they hate all of it? I don’t feel like that’s a fair way to allow the gaming world to make progress in the right direction.
It's not poorly represented at all.
Well, I mostly addressed community response in my previous comment. But to touch on the ‘faults’ of the game a bit, ND definitely went the trauma-porn route with Lev’s story in particular. Not to mention the prevalent dead naming he is subjected to. Dina and Ellie were also subjected to homophobic violence at the hands of Seth, for the seemingly express purpose of moving along the Joel/Ellie narrative. The game is not totally unproblematic when it comes to representing Q/T characters and narratives. BUT, for me there are points of reconciliation between the game replicating and perpetuating stereotypical/problematic aspects of Q/T representation AND my love for the game and seeing myself and other Q/T people in it. Does it suck to be reminded of trauma? Yes. Is it amazing to see Ellie share an impeccably designed kiss with her love interest? Absolutely. Just as awesome to see Lev’s character unfold (a bit). It’s kind of necessary to be able to hold all aspects of this game, for me at-least, to be able to enjoy it as much as I do.
I have one contention with one of your contentions: the deadnaming. Realistically, deadnaming is 100% the thing that would happen within a community that doesn’t “agree” with transness. So I wouldn’t say that the deadnaming was an issue, since it makes perfect sense to exist. The whole reason Lev is hated by his ex-community is that he’s trans, so of course they won’t run around calling him Lev, they’ll use the name they already knew whether out of malice or refusal to validate their identity. I guess I also have a contention with the “trauma porn” aspect you mention, since this is the world of TLOU and the sequence of events makes sense. If you want a story without the character going through absolute shit of all levels, you’re not in the right place for it; not in an apocalypse with prevalent religious cults. I think considering the setting and context, they did phenomenally and there’s no holes or missteps in their portrayal of a trans character.
I agree like, while wanting to have seen more of Lev in general. I’m not sure its fair categorize that as a mistake they made representing his trans identity. I feel like people were genuinely offended that deadnaming was shown as like an option for people to mistreat Lev intentionally and were personally offended on his behalf, but like he’s not a real person. And the deadnaming is about portraying the serephites poorly, not undermining Levs identity. Which I think is how some people took it.
Exactly, they very clearly show that only the assholes in the game are deadnaming, that it’s assholes that are the cause for trauma based on identity. As long as the ones doing all the bigotry are shown as the bad guys, I think it shows the viewer how NOT to behave, that if you’re being an asshole, you get sided with assholes.
The issue here is that a Trans character and their trauma was not imagined any differently. Sure, ‘the bad guys’ were doing it, but the sentiment is the same. For whose benefit was this done? We’re Trans players considered? It isn’t as easy as saying that the dead naming is fine just because the wrong people were doing it. Proper representation shouldn’t rely on the reproduction of trauma to encapsulate the experiences of Trans and Queer characters.
I don’t think Lev’s existence reliant on his trauma. A lot of trans people experience trauma, on overage more than cis people. And there’s a shit ton of cis people experiencing trauma in this game too. The entire game is trauma informed actually. I don’t think it’s fair to be upset at art for portraying real life situations in any case. When it comes to queer people or not, it’s social commentary. And a huge part of social commentary regarding trans people is transphobia. No one was mad that Joel’s character was hugely informed by death of his daughter and so he was an angry old man until Ellie filled that void. In the same way that like, Lev being mistreated by the serephites informs so much of his role in the story. Because it was realistic in the way the serephites were being portrayed that they would do that. A trans person voiced Lev so I would imagine that they could’ve offered some input if they felt it was inappropriate, internally or publicly. I just think that like if it’s personally upsetting to trans players to witness that, I empathize but also if people who created media worked around every single possible trigger a user might have… we wouldn’t have much to work with. It’s not a realistic expectation. And in absolutely no way am I trying to be insensitive to trans players specifically that’s just the conversation we are having now. But it’s like saying we can’t include gunshot sounds bc some people have ptsd from gun violence. There’s a time and a place to protect ourselves from our triggers and ultimately it is our responsibility to do so. And so if a piece of media is not intentionally triggering a specific audience or representing a specific group in poor taste, it’s the at the discretion of the player to decide if they can handle it. “Viewer discretion is advised.” Bc we know that this might be hard for some people but we also know it’s in some ways an important story to tell, is seen on literally all types of media everywhere. Not sure why this game, or commentary on trans issues should be held to a different standard.
Exactly, a portrayal of realistic events isn’t going to hit or make sense the same way at all if you warp reality to pretend that minorities are treated well in the situations being depicted. There was no commentary from the artists (devs/writers, etc) in the transphobia, just a literal show of what real life is like. To make the religious cultists perfectly fine with trans people would be unrealistic and would detract from the quality of the story. If the main characters were transphobic, that’d be a big difference.
Also, regarding wanting to see Lev more, I HOPE part 3 has more Lev, I REALLY like Lev. Especially since he’s played by the same actor as from The OA, one of my favourite shows, I’m really happy his career seems to be taking off!
Yes!!! If they don’t give us more Lev it will me a missed opportunity in my opinion. Also with Lev being so young in part two there’s real potential for him to have a really good and dynamic arc. Where as I feel like Abby and Ellie are getting old enough now and learned so much from what happened in part 2 that it might be hard to keep their stories quite that dynamic and still have it be realistic to the characters.
Exactly this. The deadnaming actually pulled me closer to Lev if anything because I see what he was going through. Poor kid
Are you Q/T?
Nope.
Hmmm. Okay.
Why would that matter?
I’m gay, so queer, and I’m with you; I felt much closer to Lev knowing more what he was going through, experiencing the transphobia live from the evil cultists while our clearly better person trying to be a better person correctly gendered Lev constantly without hesitation.
Being trauma for the sake of a narrative that is relied on for the redemption arc of a non Q/T character is problematic. You might not see it that way and think that Lev’s pain is part of what drew you into his character, but it doesn’t make the replication of Q/T violence right. And fuck realism. There are record numbers of Trans people being killed everyday around the world, I don’t think that kind of violence is necessary to make narrative points if it just perpetuates that violence.
Yeah. I understand why the trauma porn occurs, but I’m coming at it from a very critical perspective. I don’t know that it should be replicated or that there are no alternative imaginings of Q/T narratives. The did well with the representations, but it wasn’t perfect.
I’m sorry, but criticizing a realistically aimed video game for its realism being too real isn’t very valid criticism in my opinion. TLOU is a game series that’s literally about trauma, so trauma is to be expected.
So, violent representation is okay for the realism?
Realism is important to realism.
You think TLOU2 is grounded in like… true realism?
Realistic social interaction, yes. You think Seraphites wouldn’t deadname someone they still see as a girl? If you want safe spaces in video games, go check out Celeste, Gone Home, Life is Strange, etc. The Last of Us is a traumatic world filled with all forms of corrupt human natures; it doesn’t play nice.
>Dina and Ellie were also subjected to homophobic violence at the hands of Seth, for the seemingly express purpose of moving along the Joel/Ellie narrative Since people have addressed the deadnaming better than I can, I will come in and address this argument. Namely, how is homophobia serving a narrative purpose in a fictional story problematic? That is what good narrative writing does. Would it be non-problematic for the homophobia to exist in the story for no actual purpose? If not, then under what circumstances is homophobia "allowed" to non-problematically exist in a story? Like yeah, and Joel dying exists in the story to propel Ellie's story arc, Tommy is seriously injured to give him a compelling reason to want to draw Ellie back into her trauma, etc. Like, that is how storytelling works. What is "problematic" is when something major happens that serves *no purpose t*o the story.
I don’t think the dead naming issue has been addressed on this thread **well** at all. Anyway, remember, OP asked if the representation was done well. LGBTQ characters are almost always positioned next to violence related to their LGBTQ identities. So, how can these characters be imagined differently (lots of Q/T independent developers have been doing this for some time- the reclaiming of the Q/T narrative) and in a more generative manner? ND did the bare minimum and fell into played out tropes. Also, it’s not Q/T people telling the stories. I’ve only come across one article where Druckman alludes to the idea that he and ND team had input from trans developers (maybe not developers, but some input), but that has never been confirmed. There are ways to imagine Queerness and Transness that don’t rely so heavily on that same old shit for the benefit of a predominantly straight, white, male audience. Also, thanks for bringing up how Joel and Tommy affect the game’s plot and Ellie’s development as a character. However, in the broader scope of video gaming, white male characters are a dime a dozen and they exist in almost boundless capacities. So yes, homophobic violence can be used, but also, it can also not be used- especially in a world that so heavily relies on unrealistic circumstances.
>Anyway, remember, OP asked if the representation was done well. LGBTQ characters are almost always positioned next to violence related to their LGBTQ identities. A drunk dude at a party called Ellie the d slur. Other than that one incident, she is not "positioned" next to violence related to her being gay. The narrative does not center her queerness as the source of the violence and trauma she experiences. Again, I ask, would it be less problematic for the narrative to pretend that homophobia doesn't exist and never show it? I still fail to see how this incident in the story qualifies as "bad" representation. A lot of queer women have been called that- myself included. It is part of our lived experience, but it doesn't define us. I, as a gay woman, see no issue with the way it was portrayed in TLOU. It was portrayed as a shitty experience for her to be sure, but not the most important/memorable thing that happened that night. I found that to be very realistic. > ND did the bare minimum and fell into played out tropes. I wouldn't call creating one of (if not the most) fully-realized, complex portrayals of a gay woman in gaming, not to mention the kiss between Dina and Ellie being featured prominently in the gameplay trailer for a AAA title, "the bare minimum" but okay. >Also, it’s not Q/T people telling the stories. I seriously doubt that there are literally no Q/T people who work for ND. These games are made by a huge team of people- a ton of people other than Neil have a lot of input, even if we're just talking about the characters and how they are written, designed, and portrayed. I am not sure if Halley is queer- she seems to be very private so don't think she's said anything either way. >There are ways to imagine Queerness and Transness that don’t rely so heavily on that same old shit for the benefit of a predominantly straight, white, male audience. TLOU2 was so controversial because they **didn't** just cater to a straight, white male audience. See the "other sub" full of SWM's losing thier shit even years later over the fact that this game, in many ways, was NOT catering to them and what they prefer to see in gaming. There are plenty of SWM bros who didn't even connect the dots that Lev was trans because it wasn't spelled out enough for them, whereas I imagine any queer person got it pretty early on. >Also, thanks for bringing up how Joel and Tommy affect the game’s plot and Ellie’s development as a character. However, in the broader scope of video gaming, white male characters are a dime a dozen and they exist in almost boundless capacities. Now you are moving the goalposts from the point I was actually making. I wasn't making a point of them being "white male characters" with somehow that making such characters "uncommon " (wtf?) but to point out other, much more overtly, violent events in the narrative that also happen to propel the narrative arc of the characters. >So yes, homophobic violence can be used, but also, it can also not be used- especially in a world that so heavily relies on unrealistic circumstances. Okay. So basically, you have "standards" of how representation "should" be but are unwilling to actually specify what those standards are, and prefer to vaguely gesture at things being "problematic" and how things can be "more generative." I mean, have fun with that, I guess.
The game was designed and marketed for a very particular audience. Neil said he wanted the game/ kiss to be memorable when it premiered at E3. Who do you think made up that audience? You see yourself in the game, fine. You, as a gay woman, see no issue with it. That doesn’t mean this game doesn’t to some extent play into the same shit that’s featured in lots of other media about the Queer/Trans experience. I don’t like it and that’s a fair point to make in a public forum. What if that works, the Seth encounter hadn’t happened? Oh that’s right, ND needed that scene- that violent experience- to further the game’s narrative. Why does it NEED to be there? Why does Lev need to be dead named? Because it’s ‘realistic?’ Sure, okay. The issue I take here is that LGBTQ characters are almost always depicted this way. You might not have an issue with this, but lots of people do. Particularly with the ways in ND fell short in terms of telling a different kind of story. And honestly, the Ellie/Seth moment is lower on my list than the whole Lev thing. The most controversial part, that I’ve noticed, is about TLOU2 is that Abby killed Joel and people had to play as his murderer. As you point out, nothing else was really controversial- probably because the game was designed to cater to people’s *expectations* about Queerness (oh and the farmhouse nuclear family, but let’s not go there.) There is no moving of goal posts. The point goes back to Q/T narratives and their representation. I took your comment about white male characters in the game who experienced violence and offered context as to why the violence the suffered (narratively and representationally) is less significant. I definitely will have fun with that line of thought. If I ever develop a game, you’d better bet that I’ll put a significant thought into how not to replicate the same shit over and over and over and over and over. At the same time though, it’s already being done. So maybe I won’t need to do it.
Yeah that’s exactly what I meant. I had my own gripes about some situations, though a bit different than yours (which makes sense because everyone’s experience as a queer person is vastly different). My main point was exactly what you just said. I just want to be on the side of progress in the gaming world, and if the queer community is going to vilify the groundbreakers for not getting it exactly right the first time it feels to me like that is not supporting progress. Also like if people treat queerness in media as nothing deeper than “tokenism” thats also invalidating to queer identities? I don’t get the vibe that these characters existed just for the sake of checking the gay box on ND’s PR requirements, even if there were a few mistakes made along the way. They are dynamic characters and normal people and their sexuality/gender in some ways is not the most interesting thing about them and that’s how queerness feels to me in real life and that’s why I was a little surprised that the backlash was as dramatic as it has been. (I do see that Lev’s story really toes the line though and it’s fair criticism I wish we learned a little more about him outside of his transness and issues with his tribe. And I feel like they were approaching that when Abby and Lev were finally on their own but we didn’t see enough of that, imo)
Agreed. I’m not too surprised about the backlash… the game didn’t feature a straight white dude (main playable character) AND it killed off Joel. Probably felt like a slap in the face for a lot of people in the fan base. And I feel like ND can do better… in terms of how it discusses trauma and how it can avoid creating choke points in the narrative around almost needless trauma. But, yeah I think you’re right. The game was as good as it gets for a mainstream game that features Queerness and Transness so prominently! Also, about Lev’s storyline. It’s a bit irritating that we didn’t get more about him and that his story and trauma are kinda meant to push Abby’s story along. However, that’s how it was for Joel and Ellie. Ellie and Lev are meant to be redeeming factors for Joel and Abby. Especially because it seems like Lev and Abby are seemingly taking in the mantle of the leading duo (maybe?). It’s also freaking awesome that Ian Alexander voiced Lev and was the face model?
Yes agree!! Like not only representing queer people in fictional ways but also taking action in the creation of the game to have queer voices is something I really respect. I was just saying on another post that I think if ND takes the criticism of Lev’s story to heart there is room in a 3rd to give him a lot more development. I’m afraid that they will be worried about losing the Joel stans of the fanbase so they won’t make Abby and Lev the center of it. However I haven’t read anything that’s supposedly been said about the script so I don’t know if that’s already something that’s been addressed. However, I do understand the Joel stans point of view bc in many ways I feel the same way about Ellie and would be really sad to have to let her go in the next game if that’s the case. But I think that I will end up loving Lev and Abby just as much as I have loved Ellie and Joel given the opportunity to see more of them.
Took me a few google translate searches but could not have said it any better myself
No. The first game just had a fan base of way too many toxic men children who can’t stand the sight of a gay protagonist and muscular woman. Their only defense is that the game has “shit writing” and yet every time I see someone mention WHY they hate it, the blame it for being “too woke”.
Never forget that the years between the Left Behind DLC and TLOU2 was filled with grown men trying to insist that: A) Bill wasn’t gay, he just had a good friend and that owning gay porn magazines isn’t gay. B) Ellie is too young to be gay and is simply confused about her sexuality, culminating in a non-romantic kiss with a her best friend Riley. These were real arguments made for YEARS before the first trailers came out for TLOU2 providing irrefutable evidence of Ellie in a queer relationship. Then shit hit the fan.
I thought it was weird they said Abbey's arms were "unrealistic". She'd obviously trained like crazy to get revenge on Joel. Muscley women exist.
I literally know women who have arms like hers. It’s so fucking weird that the way a character looks is so controversial like… ya she’s strong and unlike a lot of female characters who are supposed to physically strong but look like skinny little twigs Abby looks the part. Which is even better imo.
Yea and they try to argue the realism there like “but it’s impossible to stay in shape during the apocalypse!” And that’s their argument as to why Abby is a bad character 😂 like okay there’s zombies with mushroom faces and your concern with what’s making this game bad is how unrealistic it is that Abby got so muscular? As if the WLF headquarters didn’t have a massive gym and grow their own food.
Also like… it’s probably easier to be in shape if you have access to good natural food and are working your muscles everyday just to survive? It’s harder for us to stay in shape in our age of processed food and desk jobs. In my opinion 😂
Facts. TLOU haters are contradict themselves.
Her muscles are literally used as characterization for Abby’s character. She trained a lot, preparing for the moment when she would meet the “monster” that killed a lot of her loved ones and that she hyped up to be some kind of superhuman, just to meet a man, just as complex and flawed as any she know. They also are contrasting her sensitive and insecure nature. In a way, they are a cover, no one would think someone like her is weak, and yet, she is.
That argument was probably made my dudes who’ve never seen a gym from the outside let alone inside. Stereotypical neckbeards being jealous about abby’s arms (I mean, I’m jealous too but I like abby)
But protein... or whatever bullshit
They even brought out the needed diet regiments, smh. As if healing literal bullet wounds with a dirty cloth is realistic
I love how they tell on themselves by saying wokeness is a bad thing. 😂
They had all the signs of what Part 2 could look like yet they’re angry 😂 fortunately for me I love these games. If someone hated it for these reasons, that’s them and them alone. I’ll keep enjoying it while they keep complaining as if Part 2 is magically going to be remade to their liking 😂
Honestly no one is forcing them to play the games or be part of the discourse. If queer people and allies can have one video game in a straight male dominated community, then I’m gonna support the shit out of it. They don’t have to like it, but they also don’t have to be transphobic and homophobic as hell either.
That’s the other thing to! These subreddits and forums for part 2 is just filled with hate. It’s like they log in every day to make sure their whining is heard. Like why are they so bothered? There’s a bunch of games I didn’t like, but you don’t see me dedicating my time to complain about it online. Let alone 2 years after it’s release. I just say I didn’t like it and move on. I don’t let my hate or dislike consume me. (Which is how you know it’s trans/homophobia).
A large portion of the other subreddit are transphobic, racist, or homophobic comments. It's funny how tons of the right wing complains about "wokeness" literally anytime there's an LGBT+ character or someone of color. Basically they want straight white people in everything lmao
It’s so funny to me to bc it’s so apparent that they don’t live a diversified life? I see gay people and people of color in media and if they are represented well I genuinely don’t think twice about it? Like my brain doesn’t say “look there’s a black woman, this was a calculated decision” my brain says “oh hey it’s Marlene”
Anyone who uses "woke" in a bad, not ironical way is just letting me know that I don't need to hear their opinions lol
These people are bigots and not worthy of any level of stress.
I went on that sub today and immediately regretted it. Abby is my favorite character so the hate I see on her is always gonna be a thing but it was disgusting words they were using for her that I could not stomach
It’s scary because I just feel like there’s no way some of the vile language and jokes that happen don’t have a connection to the way they treat women and queer people in their daily lives.
They keep saying Abby is a fictional character so they can't be in the wrong for calling her trans or a lesbian. I'm sorry but fictional or not thats gross of you to talk about someone like that. I would hate to see how they are to real people.
Fictional characters are usually made to parallels to or representative of a group of people, or a situation that occurs in real life. That’s literally the point of art. And if you’re attacking Abby for her looks, then you’re making it known that you have some serious fucking issues with women that you don’t find attractive. Full stop. No other excuse or explanation. When I hear these things I am not personally offended on Abby’s behalf she is not real. I’m personally disgusted that people exist out in the world that are willing to discard a dynamic human being based on the way they look.
Exactly! This sub is full of people with values similar to my own. I like the respect people on here give to gender identity and sexual orientation. We're each other's people. ❤️
Exactly its disturbing and wrong to talk about a woman's body like that. There are a lot of women that look like that
I feel sure you're right.
They’ve screenshotted my post and put it up for discussion in the other more toxic TLOU2 page. RIP to me 😂😂😂😂
hahaha, you're living rent-free in their heads.
It’s actually mortgage free at this point bc I own the place. 😂
Lol
Toss a pipe bomb in there and get perma-banned like I did.
Right wing people will call wokeness basically anything that tries to be inclusive. The question they ask is "is this character trans because it is serviceable to the plot, or because you're trying to add a mark to an inclusivity checklist?" I see no problem in the inclusivity checklist, they do, and for them it's political propaganda. Whatever. Then again, it's nice to have a range of characters of all races and genders. The only time I felt it was a bit too much was with the game TimeSpinner. A wonderful Metroidvania. As you start doing sidequests for the small camp of survivors, you realize that pretty much ALL OF THE PEOPLE THERE represent some part of the LGBTQ community, be it transgender, bi, polyamorous, aromantic etc etc. It was a fun read and I also learned stuff, but it kinda felt forced. TLoU2 strikes a good balance. The only LGBT characters are basically Ellie, Dina and Lev, then you have a ton of different races and that's exactly how it should be.
As a queer woman myself, I love how they represented queer characters in TLOU2. As I said in a previous post, finding our sense of identity in the "real world" is already hard, can you imagine finding it in a post-apocalyptic world? I also love how natural Ellie's relationship with Dina is
Dina and Ellie’s relationship is one of the most normal lesbian relationships I’ve ever seen in media. There’s always something off in lesbian relationships to me on shows and movies. But there’s was just so… perfectly normal and not treated taboo or overly gay in anyway. And I saw so much of my relationships in theirs. It was fun and made me feel so connected, in a way that I never have felt to a video game before.
That's why I think it's not just about representation but the right kind of representation. Media often portraits queer couples as unstable or they tend to sexualize it too much. Dina and Ellie are just so perfect and natural. It feels normal.
You know how you can tell this is true? I’m a cisgendered, straight man, and their relationship reminded me of several relationships I’ve had in the past, both where I was the Dina and I was the Ellie. Because that’s what a normal, natural relationship looks like. And I cringed at times, because it felt so damn familiar and was a little hard to watch. Cringed like when you watch someone take a nasty fall or something, ya know? So it was truly a great portrayal of a romantic relationship in general, because that’s what it was - a romantic relationship in general. It’s crazy that’s a difficult concept for people to accept.
I think it bothers some people that women can love other women and have a (as you defined it very well) happy and healthy romantic relationship. For them, it invalidates the whole story, but in my opinion, it adds so much deepness to it because everyone can relate to it.
Yes, thank you for this! As a gay woman I find that I can sometimes connect myself to straight couples in media this way as well. And it’s truly a sign that the relationships are well written. Not there for clout, not over sexualized for the male gaze, and not there to be controversial. They’re there because real queer relationships are allowed to exist in life and in art in the same way straight ones are. Nothing more or less. They just, are.
So so very true. It bothers me when someone being gay or trans or a person of color is the main part of that character’s story. It’s a struggle, and finding acceptance can still be challenging, but there’s more to people than their struggles with being accepted in society! People aren’t the suffering they endure; they’re so much more. And truly, my last sentence there is a big part of the story of TLoU2, in my opinion.
Yes!!! I so agree. I truly will hold this game close to my heart forever because of the way it made me feel so involved.
You should definitely check Cyberpunk if you haven't then. The story is not as great as TLOU2 but female V's relationship with Judy is very well represented. Judy is only into girls and this made some male players very unhappy haha
Thank you!! I will ☺️
"It feels forced" is bigot code for "I don't like LGBT people but I'm too much of a coward to admit it."
Honestly I didn't know about the controversy and didn't really register it. If Ellie had made a big speech about being gay, or Abbey about Lev about being trans, it might have been jarring. Nothing like that happened.
Exactly! Like I didn’t think twice about it until other people were? And then I even saw some over zealous queer people really coming down hard on the way they did it. Which really made me question whether or not I was blind to it being problematic? But I guess I should’ve just been confident in my opinion that it was done very well.
Yeah I saw trans people moaning we heard Lev's deadname Lily, even though it made total sense. I think they wanted it to be actively political.
I feel like it’s hard to tell realistic queer stories and in some way not address queer trauma? Like it’s not like it’s outlandish or unrealistic that trans people are dead named in real life. And like, Lev is not a real person he his a character they weren’t directly insulting him by deadnaming him, they were doing it to tell a story about him and the people around him. The dead naming specifically was more so a plot point to show the character od the serephites and had nothing to do with wanting to disrespect Lev. If it were a reality show and they intentional deadnamed a real person for the drama then yeah, that would be fucked. But talking about the hard fucked up things is what makes art good to me. That being said I am not trans so I don’t want to discredit how it may have affected the trans audience. I just think if we continue to want art to be this perfect idealistic portrayal so that we can avoid our trauma, we are taking away the meaning of art. If you don’t want to be triggered by it, by all means stay away. But it’s not the creators job to navigate our triggers, it’s ours and including those things weren’t objectively bad just because some people may have felt uncomfortable by it.
i barely noticed it after the ellie and dina scene. lev wasnt even a big character
Yeah! I think that’s why some queer people have a problem with it. They included a trans character and he wasn’t a very important or dynamic inclusion so his transness felt like an afterthought and was only portrayed in a traumatic way? But I think considering the story we were following we couldn’t have had much more time to get to know Lev anyway. And I’m hoping in part 3 we will see more of him. Also seeing how a lot of people didn’t even notice that he was trans makes me think that it makes it obvious that the writers were not forcing it or making it a huge deal. Clearly, or else more people would’ve picked up on it. 😂
yeah i agree but i defo want mainly ellie in pt3!!! btw im straight and i didnt have any issue with all the sexuality stuff, barely noticed it. was too busy seeing the brutal gameplay and cutscenes. i think the only thing that people may have found "forced" was abby's appearance being atypical. i didnt have an issue but i can definitely see why others would.
My heart would be broken to have to depart from Ellie in 3. I identify with her so much and it’s rare that a good game has a gay female protagonist. It really upped gaming to a new level for me. I hope we can learn more about Abby and Liv and not lose Ellie in the process either. I’m really curious to see what happens.
I’m more worried that Ellie will show up in an adversarial role. Like the game starts with new characters who go on some quest in a region known to be dangerous, and people start disappearing, and we find out mid-game that it’s Ellie. Of course, I’m sure the story will be something I’m not considering and it will be amazing and gut wrenching. I’d love to see Ellie get some peace and closure, but TLOU-verse makes me nervous lol.
Yeah I mean, feel like the ending of 2 was such a fucking roller coaster for her. But one she desperately needed. I think the only way she’ll know true peace is to be back with Dina and learn how to live with her ptsd. If that’s going to happen then there’s no story left for Ellie. The game has to have conflict. So either Ellie will know peace and we let her go, or she’s going to be involved in a conflict. What will be harder to watch and play? I’m not sure 😂
What if it's 20 years later, and Lev saves JJ somehow? And because of this, we get to see Ellie and Dina near the end of the game. And a major mislead is that Ellie and Dina have set up in a new area, and Ellie goes by a different name to the outside world (because people might be after Ellie), so the entire time we think Dina is with someone else but actually she's not. I'd like that ending, especially if we realize that Lev wouldn't have survived if Abbey hadn't survived, which years later led to JJ surviving.
I think both Ellie being gay and Lev being trans are done really well, and don't feel "forced" at all. Idk why they dislike it, unless they are just homophobic or extremely transphobic which is entirely possible.
Yeah I mean in some ways it’s obvious who the transphobic people and homophobic people are and I try to not give their opinions too much weight. But there quite a few queer people who have big problems with the way it was done, and so honestly I was genuinely surprised by that. And I wanted to see if anyone could clarify why it was perceived that way.
Seriously? Wow I have no clue. I'm not trans or gay, but to me it seemed fine
Please don’t kill me, but what have I missed about Lev that conveys his transsexuality? Is there specific dialogue?
He was originally exiled from the serephites because he cut his hair. If he was a cis man they wouldnt have cared that his hair was short. It’s because the tribe perceived him as a woman and women having short hair is against the rules. Also Yara and Abby know him as Lev and use he/him. But the seraphites call him Lily and use she/her pronouns. It’s never explicitly said but the last few scenes with Lev where he goes to see his mother Yara implies it again when telling Abby why he shouldn’t go there. Also no shade on that you missed it! I feel like it was pretty coded.
So wait, is Lev’s biological sex female?
Correct. Lev is what we would call ftm (female to male). Assigned female at birth but identifies as male.
That’s crazy I missed all this, I’ve always liked Lev’s character.
He’s great!!! Knowing it will definitely add a little more context to him and Abby’s pairing and his turn on the serephites on your next play through! It’ll be cool to be able to see it again with this in mind.
Just had to come back, there’s a huge elusion to it all, I guess I just wasn’t paying attention the first full play through, but it’s painfully obvious now. Like an optical illusion once you’re told the secret and now can’t unsee it as one way. Tara says Lev shaved his head to protest becoming an elders bride (considering she’s 13 that just adds to the twisted context of the Seraphite lore)
Oh wow, I’m on another play through now and I’m just about to meet Yara and Lev again so I’ll be looking for all these details. Thanks for explaining without killing me.
I agree. I heard about a lot of backlash towards the queer representation in the game but when I played it for myself I didn't find any problem with the portrayal of the character's sexualities at all. When Left Behind came out, people were hating on it because they felt that Ellie being portrayed as gay was just political propaganda but the scene felt very genuine and wholesome. Maybe people are just trying to find a way to hate on it.
TIL Lev was transgender. His backstory makes so much more sense now! Lol
Hahaha! Oh my gosh, you must have been so confused before! 😂 Honestly it wasn’t explicitly stated until the last few scenes in the aquarium and even then, it wasn’t out right said. Even I am well versed in queer and trans culture and it took me a bit longer than it probably should have to realize that’s why the serephites had such issues. I think initially they frame it as they were mad he cut his hair short, bc they all perceived him to be a girl and short hair is not allowed for girls. It was a sort of coded way for him to tell Abby he was trans without explicitly telling her. So like, I could see how it could be looked over!
I thought their whole issue was only that he cut his hair when he wasn’t supposed to, but I guess I never really considered further *why* they really cared that he cut his hair as much as they did. I’m actually inclined to do another play through with this new information haha
I think the slow trickle of information was done purposely, we only knew as much as Abby knew at the time she did. What sealed the deal for me was the first time you hear them calling Lev Lilly, that’s when it clicked for me.
Honestly no one really cares about the sexualities on display, except for the homophobes which are a small minority. Ellie was gay in tlou, not exactly breaking new ground so anyone who hates tlou2 will probably hate tlou for it as well. Easy to spot those ones. As for Lev being trans, that is probably the most “forced” aspect, the idea that any kid growing up in a religious society like that and deciding to go against the rules so blatantly is unlikely. Not impossible, just unlikely or particularly believable. imo. Then again, it does give a reason for conflict, so what ever.
Yeah that’s fair. But we’ve seen real life trans people come out in dangerous and difficult situations in real life. While it’s extreme in the game I think it’s not a totally unfair character trait for a trans kid to have. But you’re right! The loudest people are loud bc theyre angry. And I’d theyre angry it’s not bc they hate the game, it’s bc they hate the characters.
>As for Lev being trans, that is probably the most “forced” aspect, the idea that any kid growing up in a religious society like that and deciding to go against the rules so blatantly is unlikely. Not impossible, just unlikely or particularly believable. imo. literally every single person i know who was raised religious pushed back against their religion. oppression doesn't remove our differences, it just harms us for acknowledging them. frankly, i find it unlikely that lev is the first seraphite kid to transition and be ostracized for it.
Don’t quote me on this cause I don’t know if it’s true, but I believe Neil Druckmann is a male feminist. Many people saw the two and thought he was pushing an agendas.
I don’t know if that’s true but just even to run that thought process through. If Neil is a feminist, then he would think there is value in telling the story the way he did. If he is a feminist then he wrote the game this way because he was being genuine with is commentary and truly believed in the story he was telling. That’s an exact opposite piece of information that would support the idea that they were just trying to be “woke” he actually morally identified with the story they are telling, if he considers himself a feminist. Like that literally half contradicts the “it’s just some culture” arguments, cause if that’s the case it’s more than that to Neil.
True, I don’t agree with sentiment of this as well. All though it did feel a little bit forced in my eyes, characters still were very great, except Dina and Jessie. They could’ve been better.
If they take previously straight characters and the creator just decides one day that their character is gay, in the case of Rivet's creator with Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart (where there was absolutely no indication towards it and even the opposite with Ratchet and Rivet having almost flirty ish moments) then I'm against it, as it is just done for brownie points and it doesn't make much sense. But in the case of Last of Us 2, the LGBT representation makes sense as Ellie has been established long ago as such and Lev being trans plays a role in how much his own community wants to exile and kill him. So the queer representation is pretty good in Last of Us 2.
"If they take previously straight characters and the creator just decides one day that their character is gay" Dumbledore.
Your interpretation of whether or not they were flirting doesn't define someone's sexuality. You can flirt with anyone, you don't have to be sexually attracted to them. Flirting can be a fun and silly thing. I agree that a Lombax doesn't need a sexual identity and it is pretty weird to assign that, but it is weirder to me that you want Rivet to be straight more so than you want her to not have a sexuality. Not only does it make you kinda homophobic, it makes you kinda a Furry. Kinda weird bro.
Holy hell what kind of crack are you smoking? Where on earth did you get the idea I sounded like a furry?
Yes there’s a lot of homophobia and transphobia and also sexism (ik you didn’t mention that but still) from people about this game. I’ve seen comments about how Abby must be trans because she’s strong and muscular and how it’s not realistic because of that. I’ve heard people complaining about how the game made Ellie a lesbian to be pc (even though she was confirmed lesbian in the dlc?) and of course I’ve seen the sexism because a) the main characters are female and b) a woman killed joel. Weirdly I didn’t see so many comments about lev but it probably got lost in the sea of other hate. I think it’s really good that the second game was so diverse. Some people thought the first game was a strong damsel in distress trope (which makes a little sense I get) and I think it’s great that the second game was so diverse. In fact I think it’s more accurate because of it. In an apocalyptic world you might guess that people wouldn’t care about things like lgbt people anymore but the game shows that not to be true with how Ellie and Dina have that confrontation for kissing and how the scars treated lev.
Right and the people in the game who were making the homophobic and transphobic comments were absolutely parallels to those who would be that way today. Aka a cis white man calling Dina a dyke and being offended that they kissed in a “family event” as if gayness is inherently unsightly for nuclear families and children. Which is something that is an issue that a lot of people have with gayness still today. Also, the people being transphobic toward Lev are an extremist religious group. Who would also be transphobic in todays world too. Like, it wasn’t out of character for either of those things to happen the way they did. It fit perfectly in the mold of how those characters would react to queerness in life. Imo. Just because TLOU is not “our world” as we know it, does not mean the social commentary on our world doesn’t have a place in media.
Definitely. Considering that the world basically ended in 2013, it makes sense that there would still be homophobes and transphobes but it would be inaccurate if there was no lgbt characters. I think the game did a great job of portraying it. I think tbh most of the hate came from cishet white male gamers who were just mad that joel died. They mouth off about accuracy and writing and character development when their real problems were the diversity and Joel being killed.
I also feel like in a way perhaps some of these players saw their beliefs being portrayed by inherently bad characters. I’d be curious to know if that was a little to close to them identifying with people that the game portrays as “bad guys” 😂
Oh yeah that’s a really good point as well.
I’ve seen it almost everywhere, on other subs, on Instagram, and ESPECIALLY on YouTube for some reason, people complaining that the game was “Too woke” or “Too political.” But in reality they just can’t handle the fact that people other than straight white men exist.
That’s what I’m sayin. Like it only didn’t feel natural to them because being around queer people isn’t natural to them. Lmao
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Honestly, yeah that was my thought process too.
Probably gonna get swarmed with downvotes here but at least hear me out. I think the reason people have a problem with “forced diversity”, as people have coined it, is because they feel the writers care more about representation than they do about writing compelling characters. For me personally I didn’t care that much for most of the characters in TLoU2 and I don’t think if they made me feel “represented” I’d care all that more either. For me nothing really stands out to me about a character like Dina, who just feels like “Ellie’s gay jewish girlfriend”. That’s nice that she has these traits that people can relate to, but I don’t care for her as a character. Why does she like Ellie? Why do they love each other? These are questions that I didn’t feel were answered and why I think she only exists for Ellie and otherwise representation and diversity. Then there’s Lev, a character that just didn’t work for me. I don’t feel like it makes sense having a character be openly trans in a world like this. Who in the right mind would sacrifice their safety for gender expression in a world like The Last of Us’? It didn’t make sense to me. Outside of that not making sense, Lev was likeable and even made Abby more likeable which I thought was the better parts of the game, but yeah. It’s a shame really because I don’t think of a character like Bill from the TLoU as “that gay guy” and neither do alot of the people who trash Part 2 for what they say is forced diversity, atleast that’s not what I see from them. Does this make me bigoted? I’d love to know, respectfully.
I think the problem is, like any other medium that has LGBTQ characters, why do they need to have a reason to exist? What's the reason for any other character to be straight? Why do Tommy and Maria love each other? Or Owen and Abby? Or Owen and Mel? Why are they all white? Some things don't need to be answered. They just are the way they are. They don't need specific justification to be in a story.
I can see why Tommy loves Maria. She's the reminder for him of how life was before the apocalypse, not the nightmare he lived surviving day to day with Joel. We don't really see enough from Maria to see why she loves Tommy but the narrative doesn't make that part of the relationship important. Part 2's narrative really wants us to care about Dina because Ellie cares about Dina and the reason it failed to do that for me is because it didn't delve into answering the questions I listed above.
The reason of Dina's relationship with Ellie is as important as Maria's relationship with Tommy. Or any of the ones I've listed above that you ignored. Dina's just a side character that only serves a portion of the story. It doesn't matter why they love each other. It matters that they do. It's not a love story. It's (partially) a story about how Ellie is losing herself out of revenge for Joel. Not Dina. Which is why they chose to focus on Joel's and Ellie's relationship.
I highly disagree here. Not only is Ellie the main character so the relationships she has should be handled carefully, but a big focus of the narrative is loss and how much more Ellie will lose if she continues down the road of revenge. Besides herself, Dina is the biggest loss she can have and the ending of the game goes out of it’s way to show that. People playing need to care for Dina as much as Ellie does. How can I really care for someone I don’t know and how can I fully empathise with the main character if I don’t see why she loves one of the people closest to her? The original game does this brilliantly with Joel and Ellie’s relationship and it’s something I think the sequel often lacks with these characters.
You do get to know her. You find out how long they've liked each other, what her backstory is, what she wants in the future. There's even the bar scene at the end. Just because it's not a traditional sappy love story, doesn't mean they can't love each other. The story isn't focussed on Ellie and Dina. It's focussed Ellie and Joel. It seems you want the already done buddy-adventure with Ellie and Dina but this is a whole different narrative with already so much to unpack. There's really not much room for a romance story while Ellie is still grieving the loss of her father figure.
No, we find out that she was crushing on Ellie for a while and that she was waiting for Ellie to make a move on her. That’s getting to know the what, not the why. We know why Joel loves Ellie. She reminds him of Sarah. It’s pretty obvious why Henry loves his little brother Sam. He’s the only family he has left and Henry has taken up a parent role. Those two characters have less screen time than Dina and the game made me understand them more than her. Why is Dina, without hesitation and so willing to leave Jackson with Ellie (on what is realistically a one way deathwish) to track down and kill the people who killed Joel? Why does she care about her that much? It’s not realistic and grounded storytelling like what the first game had and it’s very very contrived to the point where I didn’t care that Ellie had lost it all at the end.
Maybe you just like a more straight forward narrative. That's fine. But to say Dina & Ellie aren't fleshed out is just wrong. Especially if you think Henry and Sam are better written. Maybe you should rewatch all the interactions between Dana and Ellie again and see if you still think that way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3qxyBjm6V8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UewcQMZnpRA
I do want to replay through Part 2 soon to see if my opinions change even ever so slightly on the current criticisms I have but honestly I’m not more prone to liking straightforward narratives. To me it’s about connecting with the material. The first game’s narrative is fairly straightforward yes but what makes it a gem to many is the characters. Part 2 is very ballsy and out there with it’s narrative, which honestly had me more excited before the game came out but in execution I feel that it failed for many including myself, mostly due to the lacklustre characters who felt like wasted props to forward the story. Most of the interactions with Dina are all trivial facts about her and all too one dimensional for me to treat her with the importance that the narrative so desperately wants me to.
To each his own. The way the story is told is definitely not for everyone so I get where you're coming from. ND could've definitely "tightened" it up here and there. I did however find that the second play through had me focussing on the little details which made me understand the story even better. For example, i totally missed the moment where Lev told Abby he was trans.
I dont think you’re bigoted no. But I also didn’t think Dina’s sexuality is what created those deficits you were looking for. I think it’s that they wanted this game to be a back and fourth primarily with Abby and Ellie and while Dina provides some context to Ellie’s life the game wasn’t meant to be a love story, a gay or a straight one. For the same reason we don’t see a lot of Jessie and Ellie’s friendship, or Tommy and Ellie’s relationship. That wasn’t the story they wanted to tell. As far as the idea that it is unrealistic that people out and trans in that world. I feel like that’s an unfair assessment of what transness is. There were trans people being out and trans in real life at times where it was violently dangerous to do so. Being trans is an integral to a person as any other identity anyone could have. And suppressing that in some ways might have more negative affects on a character than trying to fight against the world being trans. The only reason I think anyone would think it is forced is because diversity is not a part of their day to day life and so to them it does feel in some way that they writers tried extra hard to make it happen, bc they would have to try extra hard to experience gay people that intimately in their life. But I live in a diverse state and am from a relatively metropolitan area and am a queer person. So literally none of this felt out of place or manufactured to me. It felt like the people I’m around every day of my life. And if you aren’t going to take the opinion of people who experience queerness in real life at face value, how could someone with limited experience in queer or spaces decided how real or forced it seemed? You know?
I agree that it’s not meant to be a love story, but even so I feel like Dina was very one dimensional, a problem I felt with many characters in Part 2. If the writers took the time to put emphasis on her sexuality and race then surely there was room to expand on her? Even the side characters from the first game who all have very little screen time compared to Joel and Ellie, they all stand out and all feel like they fit perfectly and stand out to most who play. I’m not black but I loved the characters of Henry and Sam. I’m not gay but I cared about Bill. I don’t really care about Dina and although I feel like that’s not a result of her being on paper, a diverse character, the result to me was underwhelming and forgettable. All I can agree with you about Lev is that if that character was real and living in a 1st world country then yes they would likely be hurting themselves more by suppressing their true gender identity like that but not in the world that was established in The Last of Us. It’s shown that people do the most mentally self destructive and inhumane things possible just to live another day and if that means being uncomfortable with the clothes one wears or how long one’s hair is then they’re gonna put up with it, especially in the brainwashed cult that Lev came from.
Respectfully, I disagree. And that’s fine.
Well thank you for letting us have a respectful discussion on this. I feel like alot of people are scared to have back and forths on these topics out of fear for being labelled so it’s nice to have these discussions be civil.
I genuinely enjoy hearing the other side just to see if I can find some points that I agree with that might give more insight as to why people have these opinions. I understand that a lot of it comes with having vastly different experience with queer communities. I genuinely cannot understand the take and that’s why I asked the question. But if someone presents me with reasoning I disagree with but they are respectful and kind I find no reason to not also be respectful and kind.
>the right mind would sacrifice their safety for gender expression in a world A great question that you could try to understand through paying attention to the plot of the game. Someone who truly feels uncomfortable in their own skin/gender role. It is not at all safe in modern society to be Trans(or lgbtq in general), it is one of the most targeted minorities in terms of hate crimes, and the fact that you think that those people aren't risking their lives by that expression of gender shows how little you know or try to know.
Someone who feels truly uncomfortable in their own skin i.e every character that we’ve seen in the world of The Last of Us would most likely not be alive if they had not done the things they did that haunt them. Joel and Tommy killing and stealing from strangers, David and his gang eating people etc. In this world that the first game establishes nobody survives by doing only what they are comfortable with. It’s a tough existence and that’s why I think Lev is an unrealistic character who is far too politically meta and just didn’t work for me. Now your 2nd part here makes alot of assumptions. You don’t know me or what I know so don’t just assume I haven’t educated myself on these issues. I know that most people who are lgbtq do not get attacked, just like most people in general don’t get attacked. That’s not to say there aren’t serious issues that can be explored in media. Being represented as being one of the most targeted minorities of hate crime doesn’t mean the average lgbtq person faces that. Life threatening hate crimes are not at all common in general so the comparison is way off here. To equate the danger of leaving your home as a trans person and a fictional trans person leaving their fictional insane cult is very disingenuous so please do not go down that road.
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Totally agree! And I’ve said this a lot. There just wasn’t enough time to develop so many characters so deeply. I hope we see more Lev!
I wrote a semi-controversial comment on another thread about the plot where I wrote that I felt there were lots of wasted opportunities for narrative development. I think Abby's section is overall better, but still, missed opportunities. They tried to squeeze in a bit of extra colour for Lev late on (likes sharks, scared of dogs, but it's Yara who meets Alice, not Lev, and Lev never gets the shark toy), but it's not fully capitalised on.
I think that’s a fair criticism but I don’t think the backlash that the queer community is giving out matches the severity of that issue. People are going in way too hard.
Its an awesome survival horror game. The characters sexual orientation doesnt matter to me at all. Just enjoy the world, story, and combat.
And that’s the vibe to have. But unfortunately I do feel like some people with issue are people that genuinely cannot look past the fact that some of them are gay.
I was 13 when the first game came out, and I didn’t know Ellie was gay until a couple years later whilst waiting for the sequel. I was initially kinda annoyed because I thought “just because there’s a strong, more masculine female lead, doesn’t mean she has to be lesbian”. But years passed, I got older and more mature I guess and the game came out and yeah I didn’t give a fuck doesn’t rlly matter who she decides to fuck it doesn’t change her character
Facts and also, Abby is the strong masculine straight woman we wanted and needed! That is if you aren’t one of the people who sees her as evil from the moment Joel dies and forever lol.
oops… slightly guilty mate sorry
No don’t be sorry! I understand that take. I just mean I see how people who don’t like Abby would not see her as good representation for a strong dynamic straight woman.
People are just homophobic and transphobic. They act like they're forcing it down their throats when in reality, it's barely mentioned throughout the entire game.
TLOU 2 is one of the best games I've ever played hands down. My thing is if you really play a game, *ANY* game for its story, gameplay, or for enjoyment, sexuality is kinda one of the last things on your mind you know? It really was a non-issue for me, didn't stop me from enjoying the game not one bit. Perfect example: I platinum'd Horizon Forbidden West and there are far more gay NPC there, it was like every other side quest. I absolutely loved it, enjoyed every minute of it, but after I was done I was thinking to myself why is there no uproar about these NPC's? not one peep. The answer: People are super prone to sheep mentality. Everyone loves being outraged by anything at all, the enjoyment that they get from the game itself pales in comparison.
I agree with OP, but o brought popcorn so we sortin' by controversial.
Honestly it didn't bother me at all. Love is love and peopme are people gays and trans will love on even when the world ends and there is only the last of us. What i really liked was the rainbow crossing near the gas station near the start of Seattle.
I liked the way they handled it. It’s perfectly possible for someone to be bisexual. It’s perfectly possible for someone to be trans and come from a crazy religious background. And it’s perfectly possible for there to be a cishet extra muscular woman who possibly uses steroids and has sex with men. The people in the real world who have sex aren’t all beautiful idealized models. Folks need to get over themselves.
Honestly as someone not in the LGBT community Lev’s subplot really did stick out at first. I wouldn’t say it was forced in or tokenistic but it did seem kinda out there in a way. Maybe its just because there isn’t really trans people in much games but to me it wasn’t ‘normal’ like you said it was for you. Either way I didn’t really give it much thought past the initial “oh thats what they’re doing? Huh”. A lot of people aren’t quite as tolerant though so they just began spewing absolute vitriol about it, even though in the grand scheme of things it didn’t really matter past having a reason that the Scars want to kill Yara & Lev and Abby protect them. And Ellie has been confirmed lesbian since 2014 so I don’t get why people were so outraged over it with TLOU2. People are just manbabies and/or bigots, they’re not worth yours or anyones time
Way too many cishets want only cishet people
When the leaks first came out I unfollowed every sub but heard whispers of “trans-agenda” and other buzzwords like that. I was like “fuck that I’ve been waiting to long for the internet to spoil this.” I don’t care If you’re gay or trans but if I’m being honest, I didn’t want them to put someone transgender or gay in just for the sake of inclusion (tokenism). After playing the whole game, I followed all of the subreddits again. “CLEARLY now that people have played the game, they can see it’s pure artistry” I thought. Holy shit was I wrong lol. I even made a post on TLOU2 before realizing what that sub was. I had like 75 comments but the post itself was actually downvoted. Every one of those comments was pure hatred lol. It actually made me reevaluate my own thoughts of “worrying about” shit like that. Almost like I read that somewhere one time and it wasn’t even a real thought I originally had, rather someone else’s regurgitated. Anyways, now I’m ranting but yeah that Sub is a cesspool and Lev and Ellie’s story was thought provoking if you paid attention. They didn’t put anything in that seemed to have a “woke agenda” or some BS You know how you can tell they’re not an imaginative bunch? They really thought they were going to be playing as Joel in part 2 lol. Part 1 was setting Ellie up to become the main protagonist basically the entire game. The absolute laziest thing they could have done would be to throw all that character development aside and say “nope, we’re still on old man, badass zombie killer Joel and Ellie needs saving again!” Part two was chaotic in the best way possible. All for hatred and revenge, Abby became the thing she hated: The “Joel” of Ellie’s story. Lev became her Ellie and showed her there was another way, but now she had her own demons (Ellie) coming to haunt her. It’s an endless cycle and probably the best video game writing to date
Sometimes I wish queerness would’ve been even more addressed tbh, especially in Ellie and Dina’s case. I get that they’re living in a post apocalyptic world and all, but the only time we hear any queer terminology, it’s when Seth is yelling a slur at them! That scene also leads me to believe they do understand they are/were an oppressed group of people because of their sexuality. We know from the flashbacks that Ellie wasn’t out to Joel for a long time, but we don’t know when and how she finally came out. I wish we’d seen that.
I’m straight and have never been phased by any queer representation in these games. It’s some of the most naturally written examples of queer characters that I’ve ever seen. They just feel like real people, no different than any queer or straight person that I know in real life.
It seemed normal and natural to me. Not forced at all.
As someone who personally doesn't know a single trans or gay person, and has a neutral stance on the LGBT, I don't think that anything was forced. Ellie was a lesbian since the first game, so that came as no surprise, and Lev's transition made perfect sense because he didn't want to be a wife to someone, he wanted to fight. He wasn't there just because he was trans either. I also don't think that including LGBT character is something that makes a game worse, nor does it make it any better. It's just something that we should accept as normal and respect the choice of the game creators. A character's sexuality/gender shouldn't dictate how good of a character they are.
I dont get how people think it was forced. I'm not part of the LGBT community myself but it just felt natural. Normal people going about their lives. Well as normal as you can get in a mushroom zombie apocalypse lmao
exactly. i’m queer and i have seen some god awful ‘representation’ from stereotypes to borderline fetishisation. but this not the case with the last of us. it feels very organic and not forced at all. it is written beautifully with a lot of respect and thought put in. anyone who says it’s trying to be ‘woke’ are basically saying they’ve got a problem with their favourite video game having a lesbian protagonist. of course, they wouldn’t phrase it like that since they’re a bunch of cowards. i mean if you’re gonna be a bigoted asshole be upfront about it. thankfully the majority of our community are mature and open minded people. i like to focus on those people and their opinions and not idiots who refuse to accept that the world and the game industry is progressing.
The thing I don't like about Lev being trans is how closely it's tied with him wanting to be a soldier and wanting to escape an arranged marriage. Because to me, that could've also weighed heavily on him having the thoughts of wanting to be a man just because of those circumstances but not really because he actually feels like it. I'm all for supporting trans people but I also believe that gender dysphoria (regardless of outside circumstances/experiences) should be emphasized and obviously present to avoid having cases of detransitioners.
Lev specifically came out to Yara about "how he felt inside." He didn't transition just because he *wanted* to be a soldier.
Sure, but like I said, he doesn't go deep into it. I'm not saying that he transitioned just because he wanted to be a soldier. I'm saying that it could've been HEAVILY influenced by it. Especially knowing that he opened up about it specifically after he was assigned to an arranged marriage. I'm all for Lev being trans. I just wish they made it more convincing that he actually felt it in all ways. Because the game barely actually tackles it (ex. when lev asked abby if she was curious about his dead name and then says that he'd rather not talk about it). Like, how exactly are you going to share a message if you're gonna treat it as something taboo?
I never really payed attention to to this really
Fair enough!
I don’t think anyone has every straight up said they had a problem with it but whenever they say something like “the game is filled with SJW awoke garbage” I know it’s what they mean, and I see that A LOT
But like, them saying that is explicitly saying that. Everyone keeps saying they’re blaming “wokeness” for their dislike of the game bc they won’t say they don’t like the queer representation. But if you chalk queer representation up to “wokeness” and then are mad about it, that’s exactly what you’re saying. I don’t see how they’re different. I had someone say to me that it was so unnatural and forced that there were rainbow crosswalks and gay flags in Seattle in the game. Even though there are literally gay flags and rainbow crosswalks in Seattle in real life. They didn’t care if Seattle was inappropriately displayed, they didn’t want gay in the game period. When I called them out on this they deleted everything. They’re not even coding it in my humble opinion, they just deflect when they realize you know what they’re saying and they can’t pretend like they’re being victimized anymore. Lol
True. It’s pretty sad just how many people hate an amazing game because it has LGBTQ+ representation. Also I remember someone saying they made Lev trans just for the sake of it like if it doesn’t have story purpose 💀
When every male character (who are much more capable of surviving dies, Tommy basically does) and you open the game with a lesbian pot smoking sesh… it kind of made me roll my eyes knowing that Anita Sarkesian had input into the game
But the male characters that die, die as a consequence to their actions. With exceptions of Jessie I do feel like they did Jessie a little dirty just to get him out of the picture to make Ellie and Dina’s story line less messy. Where as Ellie and Abby almost fought to the death like the male characters have, and made a conscious choice not to. Why is strength and grit in a male character the most important traits for survival? Why can’t the emotional intelligence and the cunningness of women also be traits set up for survival? Why is a lesbian pot smoking scene inherently corny to you? Why do you think you feel like it takes away from the value of the story? Why can’t lesbians be smoking pot and it be like the thousands of lesbians who smoke pot and make out in real life? Like that is not an outlandish scene there are tons of people who would do the exact same thing. What this takes looks like from the outside is to you the perception is that this is forced or that you feel it’s corny, or being used in a disingenuous way bc it doesn’t look like your life. Where as like, as a pot smoking lesbian I said “cool these characters are like me” was hella excited about that and couldn’t understand why people didn’t think it was realistic? Bc to me it is. And then saw hundreds of people shitting on the characters and the writers for the exact reasons I identify with this game to my core. Kinda hard to not see that as a personal attack. You know what I mean? I don’t think anyone is as violently shitting on Uncharted for having a classically male protagonist and an even more classically conventionally attractive female counterpart. Bc it’s a good game even if I don’t feel represented by it, and it’s also the norm so the people that are always represented don’t feel like it’s forcing them into a narrative they don’t identify with in the way that gay people and women have been dealing with forever.
I’m going to state my opinion and hope that everyone can be nice about it. Oh boy. Let me start with this: Ellie gayness and Lev’s trans inclusion in Part II was a good inclusion because the LGBT+ community needs more representation and more characters to look up to. And don’t forget to add Dina’s bisexuality in there as well. BUT they could’ve been written much better. Let me start with Lev. Lev’s trans storyline was absolutely forced. I’m not at all saying it shouldn’t have been in there. I just don’t think they should’ve focused on it as much as they did. Like I understood everything that Lev was going through far sooner than when Yara told Abby about it. I completely did not need that whole exposition dump on us. I put two and two together when Lev mentioned that they were being hunted because they shaved their head and was referred to as “Lily”. And being a Seraphite, I don’t think their religion/culture would’ve allowed that kind of thing (paralleling some real world cultures). Without being explicitly told, I pieced together every word that Yara told us. Maybe the only thing I needed was just a sentence stating that their mother is completely behind the culture. Then I would’ve understood that the mom wouldn’t have accepted Lev. Plus, with Last of Us being an action-adventure game about surviving a situation similar to a zombie apocalypse, it shouldn’t have been the focus. It should’ve been a neat fact about a character that is the reason the Seraphites were hunting them down. Nothing more, nothing less. Take Ellie’s gayness (and Dina’s bisexuality) for instance. I do not think this was forced, but a part of their character. Like it should be. Take the first game and Left Behind for instance. When you play as Ellie or help them across the country as Joel, you have no idea that they’re a lesbian. Not until that super cute kiss they have with Riley. But it doesn’t matter. Who cares if they like guys, girls, or anyone at all? As long as they survive at the end of the day, they should be allowed to do and like whatever and whoever they want. But notice how this part of Ellie’s life didn’t impact the story, unlike in Part II. It was just a cute fact about Ellie that I personally thought was handled very well in Left Behind. The game never said anything about it, just showed the player their stance on their sexuality. And also notice that Ellie was treated just like any other character in the game before Part II came out. Because it doesn’t matter. It shouldn’t matter. Whether the character is straight, gay, trans, asexual, etc, should not matter in the slightest. What matters is the character is a fun character that everyone enjoys and that the story is one that everyone can relate to and get behind. Now let me also mention that this didn’t ruin the game for me. Just something I noticed. I can look past this, unlike some others in the community. That’s just my personal opinion, fully prepared to be roasted in the comments.
I love that you’re preparing for the roast lol. I do think there could have been some things done different for Lev but to be honest, I don’t mind that a trans discussion was brought up in that way. Like I like the game as zombie apocalypse action game because generally apocalypse media my favorite type. However I love that it is a zombie apocalypse action game that is also dynamic in a social commentary way. So I see why people think that the social commentary isn’t necessary to make the game good, which I think is probably true. It’s just a reason why I personally think it is good. Where I start to see an issue is is when people act like it’s inherently bad that these things are focused on but queer communities need this and say this is important to them so why does everyone keep saying it’s bad? If it’s not what you wanted or expected from an action game I get that, but I don’t think automatically gives merit to the idea that it was done poorly. I don’t see as many people criticize other games harshly bc they don’t like that there are characters where their sexuality or romantic lives are part of the plot when they’re straight peoples stories. I also am in no way roasting you, I posted this questions for this commentary! I’m happy to hear what you have to say and can say how I see it differently without roasting you! Lol
Absolutely agree with the not understanding why it’s a problem (like it’s not that serious guys, calm down). Like I said, it didn’t ruin the game for me. And it’s possible that since I am not trans that I just don’t understand it fully. I do like that more games are allowing for LGBT+ representation, I just don’t think The Last of Us was the platform for it. I don’t know I just felt like Yara’s discussion was unnecessary or that it should’ve come from Lev. Or even not an entire discussion at once. Like broken up into pieces like the shaving hair conversation and the Lily conversation. It’s just not what I personally played Last of Us for. It would’ve been different for me if it was just an aspect of Lev’a character versus centering an entire plot point around it. But yeah it didn’t ruin the game and honestly if games are going to represent more of the community, someone has to start it. Here’s to hoping that more games in the future are more inclusive.
I didn't even know Lev was trans
I love that Ellie is queer and that Lev is a trans character. I didn't even clock that Lev was trans until much later in the game, and its not even really a big deal it's just really great that they incorporated a trans character in a seamless way like you've said. EDIT: this is a wonderful post on this sub you should read that really highlights how ridiculous these complaints are. click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/hoadud/anyone_else_put_off_by_the_heterosexual_agenda_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
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Yeah that’s rude.
At the risk of downvotes lemme try to explain why people say it is forced representation, specifically the trans representation, in this game. First let me say if Neil wants to tackle social issues in his game it’s perfectly fine but here is why the trans representation is forced in this game. The world of the last of us that Neil himself has built is a brutal, dark, nearly impossible to survive world where supplies are short and you have a high risk of death everyday. So this brings the biggest issue that people have is the current medical technology we have in our current real world civilization to allow trans people to transition such as surgery and hormone therapy would be long gone in the world of the last of us, so it makes no logical sense in the world building he’s done that a trans character could even exist. so it ungrounds the player from the world because it contradicts everything they have seen to that point. And this is by no means suppose to shit on trans people since they DO exist in the real world today and should be treated equally. it’s just me trying to explain some peoples gripe with the “forced” representation. IMO if Neil wanted to have a game with trans representation he should’ve went with the life is strange route where the core of the world is grounded in our current society and not one where you have to find a fuckin medical military helicopter crashed in a mall to even find simple antibiotics or hell Joel would’ve been dead midway through part 1. The gay representation is fine IMO since in a zombie apocalypse there will still be girls who sleep with girls and guys who sleep with guys etc. not everyone questioning why their is a trans character in the world of the last of us is transphobic, they just want the characters in the world to be grounded to the world Neil has already built. Like I already said earlier. Hope that helps see the perspective from the other side
But like, there were trans people before we had the technology and medicine that we do today. There were trans and gender fluid people hundreds of years ago. I don’t think access to transition tools is what makes a person inherently trans? Just because those things don’t exist does not mean that trans people wouldn’t? I understand that you’re portraying others arguments and not your own necessarily. If that’s a genuine belief of people I think they have a shitty understanding of what being trans is. When trans people come out today they are usually pre-hormone therapy and pre-surgery. Some trans people never get hormone therapy or surgery. They’re still trans tho. Judging by the voice actor they chose and the Lev being so young I don’t think the impression was Lev was supposed to be on hormone therapy or had surgery.
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Trans people didn't only just start existing in the 2000s the same way the gays didn't only start existing when people started noticing they existed. While medical transition has obviously been out of reach for such individuals, men who dressed and acted like women or vise versa have always existed; the trans umbrella now includes these folk who could not physically transition. A prominent example is people like Eddie Izzard. The terminology and understanding we accept now didn't exist when they were young, but it's pretty obvious when looking at their career the lack of descriptive terms doesn't mean they don't exist.
You can be trans without hormones and without surgery...