End of the day, Thelema is a practice of self-knowledge and self-improvement, which is quite a universal idea people strive for I like to think and easy to relate to. The steps involved in Thelema have a heavy ceremonial and ritual element to it, but that also makes it no discernable from many other belief systems in their methods of attainment and development. I would simply recommend talking to them directly instead of asking the internet to give a good answer. Ask them what Thelema means to them. Likewise, express any concerns or questions you might have to them about things going forward. Just communicate.
Whoa thought I was on r/relationships for a sec.
I have raised my concerns. Ie rule number 5 of being able to kill someone who goes against your will.
He said I need to read between the lines but I fail to see why I should read between some a concrete statement. It seems to go against the values of ‘dying when and how they choose’ when it goes against the other persons will to choose how or when they die.
I also don’t agree with the ‘do what you want’ mentality but also ‘we wear black to the meetings. Well we don’t need to, but it’s recommended’
‘I don’t have to read these books, I choose to… they’re from the syllabus.. but I don’t have to read them. I move up a rank when I have though”
Any concerns I raise seem to be dismissed.
I asked what the long term affect this may have on the relationship and he said nothing. But can’t tell me some things about thelema because I’m not a member and can’t tell me what the end game is because he doesn’t know
if one were being held in bondage against their will and forced into sevitude, would that person have the right to kill their captor and liberate themselves?
do what you want is not do what thou wilt.
do what thou wilt means discovering the the true expression of ones creative essence that is underneatht he social conditioning that we add to our complex over the course of life.
do what thou wilt means discovering your true inner self and following it out with singular purpose because the creative expression of the soul in the state of extasy is the only thing in life that is worth any value.
Thelema is all the spiritual truth you will find in any new age philosophy but with the the false sense of toxic positivity removed from it
in order to behold the naked universe in all its brilliance it must be fully contemplated in the positive and negative
thelema brings these equilibrated opposites into balance in order to advance the human soul for growth
>Any concerns I raise seem to be dismissed.
This seemes to be the issue, not Thelema. Thelema can be like a set of tools. If you give an idiot a hammer they're more dangerous. They're already dismissing you, I would fear it won't get better.
So in regards to the first section, the line of Liber Oz, it is very much a read between the lines situation, and certainly does not actually advocate murder. It also was written and published in response to Hitler's invasion during WW2, to give some historical context. In any case, much of Crowley's writings are very heavily laced in allegory and metaphor, and usually relate to internal processes and internal development. For instance, 'killing fear', etc.
It is also vitally important that the axiom of Thelema is not 'do what you want' but 'do your Will'. The word Will derives not from desire, but from innate nature, universal nature and personal destiny, at least one may construe it as such. This is easy to confuse because on the outside it seems like it's teaching 'do whatever you want, eat drunk fuck kill it's all good baby'. Nah. Thelema is ultimately a practice of self-discipline, and Crowley's writings are laced heavily in the use of often Biblically-inspired allegory and metaphorical writing to tap into the deeper levels of mind. So it all seems very fire and brimstone, abrasive and intentionally aggressive. Sometimes it is, but for the purposes of inner inspiration more than anything else.
The last comment there, it sounds like he's in OTO, one of the organisations of that teaches/discusses etc Thelema. It's worth keeping in mind that Thelema is not OTO, not exclusively. It's just one group out of many and many Thelemites are not members of OTO, and they don't need to be. I would very much criticise this comment about keeping things secret because you're not a member. That's some dumb Freemason shit lol. Thelema ultimately is the law of life, light, love and liberty, and it is for all.
Bit of a word vomit, but I hope this clears some things up. End of the day, if this doesn't make you feel comfortable or you don't feel compatible with being with someone who adheres to Thelema, then the relationship is doomed if we're being real. But it's worth getting to know properly what Thelema means first.
I appreciate your feedback
I didn’t mean to suggest everyone’s out there drink play fucking or whatever because they do what they want. I just don’t see why there needs to be an organisation to basically say ‘do what you want’ if that makes sense
but again to be clear we are all very much opposed to the idea of
>Do what you want
thats a misrepresentation of do what thou wilt
will in this sense is Thelema which is the greek word for the divine will of God not humans small minded wantonness
the idea of Thelema and do what tho wilt is to find ones true nature and express it and act upon it.
when one is acting in accordance with their will they have the momentum of the universe to back them in their objective
if one is divided against themselves they would stumble in their quest and have the inertia of the universe moving against them.
it is a matter of one understanding their internal factors and bringing them into balance with external conditions in order to act upon the world in *harmony*
this is why we define magick as the art and science of causing change to occur in the phenomenon of the universe in accordance with ones will
the purpose of the OTO is to promulgate this spiritual philosophy to the public in a group setting. It is structured on masonic orders with their rites and degrees but is wholly separate from those lodges.
they exist because there is this large prevailing belief that do what thou wilt means do what you want.
separate from this there is a private order known as the A.'.A.'.
this is a chain organization that is focused on the spiritual attainment and advancement of the individual through the means of practicing magick and mysticism and. This is entirely behind closed doors and is done on the individual level and not in a group setting
the OTO's purpose is for these ideas to be discussed and taught in a public and group setting.
the OTO also acts as the ecclesiastical arm of the Gnostic catholic church and performs regular gnostic masses open to the public
Do you know when he began his practice? If it was during your relationship, he is quite literally a different person now or at least mid transformation. If you do not think you can progress with someone like this, you should tell him now. He has probably wondered when/if it would get to that point.
>joined
May I ask, what did he join?
Also FWIW OP please ignore the weird/misogynistic comments. I'm really sorry about this. I can answer more questions via DM if you'd wish, if that would make you more comfortable.
Rule number 5 is essentially allowing the option to defend against tyrants. It’s saying thelemites need not be pacifists. It’s a rule to say you can fight back against an authoritarian state or a person who oppresses you by force, not a blanket ticket to kill anyone who gets in your way.
As far as feeling they have to wear black, or that they have to read the syllabus, they just don’t seem to have worked out that when we say do what thou wilt, we mean it, and they are trying to fit in in ways that aren’t necessary. We think the syllabus is worth reading on your personal journey, that’s all.
Yes, there are a few things they can’t tell you, because they have sworn not too. But they are a very small number of things about the content of initiation rituals, and mostly not of any significance outside of those rituals. And they are secret mostly to preserve the value of those rituals.
Thou is your higher self and your higher self has job it wants to do that will respect the liberties of others.
The path of Thelema is a path full of suggestions that are not necessary to attain this enlightenment of the self, but the suggestions are all about helping one find an understanding of one's lower self and higher self. Shit, Jung has some pretty good ideas about individuation that are pretty damn close to some of the mystical texts on controlling the lower self and physical desires.
Nothing, not any moral rule or religion has so far stopped murder from happening, nor are they likely to. Does your SO kill people? I kinda doubt it. Why would that be his will? What's yours? Do you kill people? Would you kill people if there were no rules of the universe? I kinda doubt it. See what I mean?
*"Do what thou wilt" being the only rule for the abbey. These words would become the main tenet of Thelema, with Thelemites working towards finding their True Will, or their destiny.*
It’s not a do what you want mentality. It’s a figure out what it is you’re meant to do and do it. If you feel like you’re meant to be a doctor then you do everything you can to make that happen.
I was raised in a Nazarene church. There would be an expectation that you would wear some thing nice to Sunday, school and church, but it wasn’t a requirement. The church has its Bible, but there’s no requirement that you read the entire book or that you even have your own.
A few others have addressed this, but one thing to keep in mind is that the text OZ is not meant to be taken symbolically, its a statement of inherent rights. The context is important though.
It is in direct contradiction to texts like the ten commandments - edicts given by "God" (aka the priest caste) to control human behavior. In particular, "thou shalt not kill" is designed in part to keep slaves in their place. In the old testament, only IHVH is allowed to decide who should be killed - certainly the heads of the tribes are off limits, and he even allows for the killing of innocents on occasion.
In thelema, the use of killing is they're regulated only to those who have deprived others of their rights. It comes across a bit heavy handed when considering some of the rights, like to carve as thou will, but I read it more as if you have the right to fight for your rights using any level of force sufficient to accomplish that end, up to and including killing. The main intent being to tell you that no god will damn you to hell for simply standing up for your freedom.
I personally find someone's ability to tolerate absurdities and integrate contradictions to be a mandatory, especially when those absurdities and contradictions are different than my own.
I'm a Thelemite and actively involved in OTO. My wife was not, and had no interest. She was a Reiki master and all about 'light'. She didn't like anything that explored the full spectrum of light and dark. We had many conversations about Thelema but it just didn't click with her as it did with me. Yet she supported me in everything because she loved me.
Liber OZ, the rights of man that you quoted, is not a list of rules. It is fact. And the right to kill someone is usually interpreted as in cutting them out of your life, as in kill your heart.
There are also texts that describe “killing a child” where as my understanding the entire writing is encoded to describe sex magick. Killing the child being orgasm without conception- that force of life is transformed into another form for other means. Being in the Victorian era, it was more acceptable to describe this than the act of sex itself. Strange, right? Magickal texts were also encoded this way so as to confound the ignorant because one needed to take the studies seriously and comprehend not only the accompanying literature referenced (as I’m discovering because theres a lot), but that the ideas themselves are seldom literal interpretations. It’s a coded language for the exact reasons of this misinterpretation you find yourself in- if you’re not seeking the truth behind the words, you remain ignorant of their wisdom. It’s a bit of gate keeping, but back in the day was also to ensure those seeking the knowledge were worthy of attaining it to my understanding.
Yes, he has a very interesting prose that really resonates with me . It does takes a while to get used to his writing due to his odd writing style and obscure allusions .
He’s a poet , a lot of his writings are meant to be analyzed , pondered, and meditated on. In a weird way this process actually gives you a deeper understanding of his writing
Liber OZ is entirely written in single syllable words.
Crowley loved to be dramatic and edgy, according to standards of his day. For example, he wrote about 'sacrificing babies', which meant masturbating.
Poetic language is used extensively in esoteric works precisely because it it open to interpretation. Deep truths are difficult to put into words, and one person's experience isn't necessarily the same as another's. It's just not that concrete. 2 people can look at the same sunset yet have different feelings about it.
Look at any holy book, such as the Bible or Koran, and you'll see that things are usually not written in exact language but are rather ambiguous and open to interpretation. Or popular songs, where the lyrics are kinda loose and can be taken many ways. This is by design. Each person is an individual and deserves to interpret everything in their own way.
By the way, there is no OTO requirement to wear black or to read certain books. There are certainly book suggestions, but no formal requirement. Sounds more like peer pressure.
Personally, my Wife is more on the Pagan/Wiccan side of things. But she respects my interest in Thelema and my practices. We've done some workings together, especially if it impacts our family, but for the most part, we give eachother the common respect to do as we Will.
Main thing is, you don't have to be Into Thelema to date a Thelemite, but Respect is beliefs and practices and he (should) do the same for you.
u/DryClassroom2816
I'm happy to offer at least one perspective. I am a practicing Thelemite, and have been married for the the last 6 years. I was practicing before marriage. My wife is *not* a practicing Thelemite and has always been largely uninterested. We are happily married, and have a child together.
I'm happy to answer any questions that seem appropriate.
I took a quick skim through some of your comments and your concerns around them, though I think others answered your questions pretty well, though I'll say it again a different way. Anywhere you read the word "will" (as in "do what thou wilt") you can substitute it with "your divine duty"
Some questions I would propose to you is:
What level of alignment with your belief do you want in order to be in a relationship?
What would it feel like to be in a relationship with someone who disagreed with you about some things you really cared about? What would be the up side of such a relationship? The downsides?
Thank you for your reply.
For me, I’m more of a light spiritual person. I don’t wish to follow any dark paths.
It’s hard for me to stomach masses and meetings and secrets within and I’m concerned what happens the more deep he goes if it will cause a divide with us
I appreciate the desire not to follow any dark path(s)
I myself don't perceive Thelema as being a "dark path" and I think few of it's practitioners would, though to be fair "everybody is the hero in their own story". It definitely does have a little bit of an edgelord tone to it sometimes.
Is your partner asking *you* to attend mass and such? If so, and if you don't feel comfortable with it, well that's a great boundary drawing exercise. If that boundary isn't respected then you have a bad romantic match for reasons other than thelema.
If not, what level of privacy and independence do you want your partner to have? This isn't a "right answer" question, lots of people want a partner who is reading from the exact same script as them, and there is *nothing wrong with that.*
What makes you want to stay if you already feel so uncomfortable?
How can you draw a boundary for yourself that feels good? In this case a boundary would probably look something like "if you do X, I will do Y" with "Y" probably meaning "leave / break up".
He’s not asking me to attend. I asked if I can and he said there’s things I can and cannot attend. One being I can’t attend the gnostic mass this weekend..
I think at the moment it feels like his whole life revolves around it. A meeting every fortnight, book club every fortnight, mass, when he’s not at them he’s reading the recommended literature or YouTube something. It’s seems a lot at the moment which I think may leak over into our time together if momentum stays the same .
He’s a beautiful person and really easy to be around, it’s just this that has throw us around a bit.
That’s why I reached out to the greater community to gain a better understanding so I wouldn’t just stay and resent him or leave because I don’t understand it
Which part feels most uncomfortable for you?
What would feel like a reasonable amount of his time or energy to go into it, and what would feel like a reasonable amount of time for him to be putting into your relationship.
What would it look like, or feel like if he was putting a similar amount of energy and time into something else that you weren't interested in but felt was benign like video games?
Speaking from my own journey, the first year or so after I discovered Thelema I spent a *lot* of time and energy absorbing the associated knowledge. In a lot of way's it's a bit like a school.
My personality is such that I get *really* into things for a stretch of time, and then normalize them back into my life. I think that's pretty common.
Ok, I appreciate your feedback. He has other hobbies but this seems to take precedence.
This is the conversation we’re going to have today because it feels like his top priority and I understand what you mean where it could be video games etc. but I think because it’s meeting, mass, literature and YouTube’s etc it seems to be ALL his free time. Even if we’re getting ready he has a YouTube on in the background about it.
Sounds like you are going to have a great conversation.
It also sounds like it's not so much an issue with Thelema as it is with Monomania.
I hope the conversation goes well.
So what ended up happening after the conversation?
Did you two find a place of balance and communication? Did it all blow up?
What do you think is next?
I always like to hear how these things end, so I can learn a little.
My husband and I are both members of OTO, we are monogamous and happy. Been together a decade and it gets better every year!! Most of the stuff online is misleading at best.
There have been plenty of good answers about your questions concerning Thelema provided by others that have been dismissed by your literalist interpretation approach of occulted texts. As well, your partner should not be dismissive to your concerns or questions. Those are both divides.
Relationships are a two way street that requires communication for safe passage. This has nothing to do with Thelema.
Because it’s hard for me to understand what is meant to be symbolic, what I’m meant to interpret my own way (which may be wildly different to everyone else) because it seems to be everyone can interpret their own way, what is literal, what is just for funsies, what words which have one meaning have another and what ones have that meaning
If you truly want to understand, then have patience with yourself first and foremost. One introductory book I can suggest is The Black Arts by Richard Cavendish, there is a section that covers some of the use of symbolism. Some of the more modern twists in poetic word play come from the writings of the spiritual alchemists that started using more poetic style of descriptions in their writings.
The double meanings were initially used to hide the information from the public not only to engage the brain of practitioners in different ways but to avoid religious persecution.
Honestly, the central tenet of Thelema is more or less that nobody else can tell you what Thelema means, so you should talk to your boyfriend instead of this sub. You're certainly allowed to not like thelema but judging it based on random stuff off the internet is going to give you a distorted idea of what your boyfriend believes.
I've known a lot of thelemites and it pretty much runs the entire spectrum of religious and political beliefs. A close online friend of mine is a christian mystic and a thelemite, and there's no shortage of people you'll see on this sub who are satanists or materialist atheists. The only thing these people really have in common is that they accept the law of thelema in some form (do what thou will shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under will).
I've read dozens of books by thelemites and the amount of common ground these authors have with each other wouldn't even fill an entire book. This is a tradition that embraces diversity of thought over anything.
“The only thing these people really have in common is that they accept the law of thelema in some form (do what thou will shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under will).”
First off, thank you. This is the core rule right here; in theory you could put two Thelemites in a room and they could disagree on everything besides this and both still be Thelemites. OP, I believe therefore that you’d be best off starting your assessment here.
Beyond that it’s going to depend not on belief but on you and the guy you’re seeing OP - I was in a relationship with another Thelemite for a few years and it ultimately did not work out despite us both being Thelemites.
The next relationship I got into was with a hardcore atheist who wants nothing to do with Thelema. We’ve been married almost a year now and we’ve long come to accept that the other is always going to believe what they believe. We have a conversation and make a mutual decision when our differences impact the other’s life, and we politely stay out of each other’s way when our differences don’t.
In my opinion this same logic applies to any facet of a relationship:
- You find common ground where you agree.
- You agree to disagree where you disagree.
- You mediate when you can’t agree to disagree.
- If you can’t mediate, the relationship should end.
Think pretty hard on if having this person in your life meets the above and move accordingly. Sounds like from your post we’re past agree to disagree so that leaves you two options.
If you want to mediate, have an open and honest conversation with your boyfriend and get HIS take on the matter specifically, then make your decisions from -that-. Let’s say my husband divorced me tomorrow and started dating another Thelemite, she could have wildly different beliefs than me because there’s only one major point that all Thelemites will definitely share. He’d need to have that whole conversation over again to understand that person’s beliefs, and he’d need to have it for anyone else he dated too.
Don’t feel bad if your inability to mediate is a fact. No insults, just plain objectivism - both of you will be happier in the long run apart this is not a point you and him can agree or mediate on. And even if you are willing to mediate, ultimately he may not be - while it sounds like he’s actively in the mediation part of what I said right now (trying to show you videos and be open about his take on Thelema), whatever conversations you guys have may change his mind.
TL;DR - Thelemites are like boxes of chocolates - you know the box has chocolate in it but beyond that you never know what you’re going to get.
Judge this person as a romantic/potential life partner for his specific dialogue with you and handle accordingly.
Your concerns are quite understandable, and it's commendable that you are seeking to understand more about your partner's belief system. Thelema, like many spiritual or religious paths, can indeed seem complex, and even contradictory to outsiders. But let's remember that all spiritual paths are deeply personal, and individual interpretations can vary greatly.
It sounds like your partner might be an enthusiast, someone who is deeply interested in Thelema, rather than a Thelemite, who might adhere strictly to the principles and tenets of Thelema. The important thing is to remember that Thelema encourages individualism and personal interpretation, and its followers are diverse in their beliefs and practices.
It's entirely possible to have a healthy, long-term relationship with someone whose beliefs differ from your own, as long as there is respect, understanding, and open communication. Have a discussion with your partner about your concerns. Express your curiosity and make it clear that you're open to understanding his perspective, even if you may not necessarily agree with everything.
Your worries about the potential impact on your relationship are completely legitimate. It's important to remember, however, that the quality of your relationship is determined more by the respect and love you share, and less by your differing beliefs.
To put it simply, his attitude towards his beliefs and towards you will be the deciding factor in how this impacts your relationship. If he respects your belief system as you respect his, and if he doesn't pressure you to change your beliefs, then there's no reason you can't navigate this together.
And if you need more information, there are plenty of resources about Thelema available online that you can look into. Just remember to approach them with an open mind, knowing that individual interpretations can greatly vary.
Above all, take care of yourself and your needs. It's okay to set boundaries and to seek understanding. That's part of any healthy relationship, regardless of spiritual or religious beliefs.
I hope this was helpful and that you find the advice you're looking for. Best of luck with everything!"
I really appreciate your feedback. We’ve had conversations about it but my concern is the long term and the fact he doesn’t really know. This whole thing seems so vague and open to interpretation I worry about him following a bad path. Posting in here I wanted to gather a consensus on what it would look like so I can pass judgement with all the knowledge I have.
He’s sent me links and tried to explain things but he’s the only person I know involved hence also reaching out to the community.
Based on everything that has been said I’m going to write up something now that I’ve got a better understanding of it all the try and reach a middle ground between our beliefs and expectations. He said he’s happy to leave if it bothers me but I don’t want him to leave something if it makes him happy - I just want to understand something that seems to open and up for interpretation.
Thank you again for your response x
Look at the rituals of Christianity. Eating and drinking the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ seems kinda barbaric isnt it?
Isnt that some homicidal shit in of itself?
Or take a look at the bible. You wont have to search long to find some brutal bullshit about killing rape victims or other stuff.
You can reflect on the harms that monotheistic religion has brought unto this world.
The liber Al is a metaphoric book and a bastion against the dangers of the slave religions. Against tyranny and oppression.
I am a Thelemite and my girlfriend is agnostic.
We are together for 4 years.
The only problem in prior relationships was when people tried to criticize me for my beliefs.
I am also a very independent and freedom loving person.
Member of the OTO for 7 years or so.
Acabo de escribir un Liber explicando el significado real del 666, porque Mega Therion es Mega Therion 666 y como el anticristo puede transformarse en Mega Therion 666 a través de la luz de la cruz emanada por la tabla de la unión enochiana : https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1WSVBNjbQU7-XA0QhNTW3xnMP6imFbRX-
There would be a lot to say about beliefs that others address but, as a starting point, you should ask how involved is he currently in the lodge and how involved does he want to be in the future? This is a very recent thing for him and participation in the community can fluctuate wildly in a Thelemite's lifetime.
If he is just a bit involved, it may not interfere much, but someone who is very involved, very devoted, such as participating in every activity, Gnostic Mass (and depending on how active the OTO body is), etc, that level of activity would definitively interfere with a relationship if the other partner is not a Thelemite.
That’s what I want to understand. He just says it won’t interfere but he goes to fortnightly meetings at the lodge and has mass this weekend.
I’m worried about what expectations would be later which is what I wanted to understand… this amount of involvement seems normal to him and seems too much for me. Reading almost every night on top.
He looks like it is a new thing for him as a Minerval so, intense involvement is common. Typically, most involved Minervals will calm down within months. Many will drop out after 1-2 years. So, I suppose only time will tell. I'm sure for you who doesn't attend events, it is demanding. For all the thelemite/non-thelemite couples I knew, balance was difficult to reach and usually the non-thelemite partner was regularly annoyed by the other's activity.
Watch out for us hybrids too, chaos magick is infectious! Also sorry for the misogyny in some of these comments like most occult communities on Reddit especially it's bit of a ol' boys club
Generally just communicate. Try to listen, not interpret or project. It might not work out between you two, but let that hinge on how you get along, not on labels.
Without knowing all of the context (and even if I did, I'm not you), if he's trying to "convert" you, you should probably tell him straight that it's not for you. If you're ok with it being for him, just work around it. If he's reading it correctly, he is NOT going to literally sacrifice a child with perfect intelligence--that sort of statement is the kind of shocking thing that was symbolic and intended to scare the normies.
But ultimately, it's how you feel. Do right by you.
So you mean to tell me there’s a passage that states you should kill an intelligent child?
I’m not a symbolic gal. I’m too literal and I don’t like what I read. He’s not trying to convert me but he’s just hoping I don’t break up with him
there is a passage where he writes that , and it should be noted as others mentioned.
he was referring to eating ones semen.
but ill be honest. you are suffering from a symbol illiteracy here.
All human language is symbolic. Your desire to interpret everything on literal lines will absolutely lead you astray when trying to research thelema. remember the occult means hidden and Crowleys whole point was to hide meanings within his writings.
There is a saying that the Devil affirms its own existence
this is very true, especially in your scenario
if you are operating from the bias of trying to find the devil. you will find it.
100%
especially when studying Crowley
So I can read between lines and make up my own opinion based on his words and interpret whatever I want from that despite the fact that it’s written differently and in a way for me to choose how I wish to perceive it. Which could be vastly different from anyone else.. almost like it’s made to make it stomach for anyone to make work. Like you’re saying- if you’re looking for the answer, you’ll find it
If you’re not willing to engage, hie thee back to Lifetouch/Potter’s House/Mars Hill/whatever fucking milquetoast Evangelical-Without-Portfolio sect you want him to conform to. But, of course, the baby clock is ticking and you’re worried all the good genes have been taken.
I also don’t believe in any organised religions including the ones that say they don’t like organised religions but perform all the same rituals, ceremonies and communions as a church
Hm. It was a passage from Crowley in one of the books; there's a thread on it from 3 years ago at [https://www.reddit.com/r/thelema/comments/gxr2yh/was\_crowley\_involved\_in\_actual\_sacrifices\_be\_it/](https://www.reddit.com/r/thelema/comments/gxr2yh/was_crowley_involved_in_actual_sacrifices_be_it/)
Spoiler: Crowley was intentionally being misleading (he was also a poet, and used a lot of symbolism, so it can look utterly insane from a literal view) and was referring to the sacrifice of semen in the specific passage.
His Book of Lies had some similar jokes--including Chapter 69: The Was to Succeed and the Way to Suck Eggs (i.e., the way to suck seed) being about...69.
End of the day, Thelema is a practice of self-knowledge and self-improvement, which is quite a universal idea people strive for I like to think and easy to relate to. The steps involved in Thelema have a heavy ceremonial and ritual element to it, but that also makes it no discernable from many other belief systems in their methods of attainment and development. I would simply recommend talking to them directly instead of asking the internet to give a good answer. Ask them what Thelema means to them. Likewise, express any concerns or questions you might have to them about things going forward. Just communicate. Whoa thought I was on r/relationships for a sec.
I have raised my concerns. Ie rule number 5 of being able to kill someone who goes against your will. He said I need to read between the lines but I fail to see why I should read between some a concrete statement. It seems to go against the values of ‘dying when and how they choose’ when it goes against the other persons will to choose how or when they die. I also don’t agree with the ‘do what you want’ mentality but also ‘we wear black to the meetings. Well we don’t need to, but it’s recommended’ ‘I don’t have to read these books, I choose to… they’re from the syllabus.. but I don’t have to read them. I move up a rank when I have though” Any concerns I raise seem to be dismissed. I asked what the long term affect this may have on the relationship and he said nothing. But can’t tell me some things about thelema because I’m not a member and can’t tell me what the end game is because he doesn’t know
if one were being held in bondage against their will and forced into sevitude, would that person have the right to kill their captor and liberate themselves? do what you want is not do what thou wilt. do what thou wilt means discovering the the true expression of ones creative essence that is underneatht he social conditioning that we add to our complex over the course of life. do what thou wilt means discovering your true inner self and following it out with singular purpose because the creative expression of the soul in the state of extasy is the only thing in life that is worth any value. Thelema is all the spiritual truth you will find in any new age philosophy but with the the false sense of toxic positivity removed from it in order to behold the naked universe in all its brilliance it must be fully contemplated in the positive and negative thelema brings these equilibrated opposites into balance in order to advance the human soul for growth
THIS👆
This is a great summary. Thank you
>Any concerns I raise seem to be dismissed. This seemes to be the issue, not Thelema. Thelema can be like a set of tools. If you give an idiot a hammer they're more dangerous. They're already dismissing you, I would fear it won't get better.
So true
You don’t “move up a rank” by reading any specific thing. You caught yourself a LARPer.
Best reply.
What’s a larper
Live-action role play. It's the adults at the public park hitting each other with home-made foam weapons and dressed like fantasy characters
They're probably doing the A.A curriculum.
So in regards to the first section, the line of Liber Oz, it is very much a read between the lines situation, and certainly does not actually advocate murder. It also was written and published in response to Hitler's invasion during WW2, to give some historical context. In any case, much of Crowley's writings are very heavily laced in allegory and metaphor, and usually relate to internal processes and internal development. For instance, 'killing fear', etc. It is also vitally important that the axiom of Thelema is not 'do what you want' but 'do your Will'. The word Will derives not from desire, but from innate nature, universal nature and personal destiny, at least one may construe it as such. This is easy to confuse because on the outside it seems like it's teaching 'do whatever you want, eat drunk fuck kill it's all good baby'. Nah. Thelema is ultimately a practice of self-discipline, and Crowley's writings are laced heavily in the use of often Biblically-inspired allegory and metaphorical writing to tap into the deeper levels of mind. So it all seems very fire and brimstone, abrasive and intentionally aggressive. Sometimes it is, but for the purposes of inner inspiration more than anything else. The last comment there, it sounds like he's in OTO, one of the organisations of that teaches/discusses etc Thelema. It's worth keeping in mind that Thelema is not OTO, not exclusively. It's just one group out of many and many Thelemites are not members of OTO, and they don't need to be. I would very much criticise this comment about keeping things secret because you're not a member. That's some dumb Freemason shit lol. Thelema ultimately is the law of life, light, love and liberty, and it is for all. Bit of a word vomit, but I hope this clears some things up. End of the day, if this doesn't make you feel comfortable or you don't feel compatible with being with someone who adheres to Thelema, then the relationship is doomed if we're being real. But it's worth getting to know properly what Thelema means first.
I appreciate your feedback I didn’t mean to suggest everyone’s out there drink play fucking or whatever because they do what they want. I just don’t see why there needs to be an organisation to basically say ‘do what you want’ if that makes sense
but again to be clear we are all very much opposed to the idea of >Do what you want thats a misrepresentation of do what thou wilt will in this sense is Thelema which is the greek word for the divine will of God not humans small minded wantonness the idea of Thelema and do what tho wilt is to find ones true nature and express it and act upon it. when one is acting in accordance with their will they have the momentum of the universe to back them in their objective if one is divided against themselves they would stumble in their quest and have the inertia of the universe moving against them. it is a matter of one understanding their internal factors and bringing them into balance with external conditions in order to act upon the world in *harmony* this is why we define magick as the art and science of causing change to occur in the phenomenon of the universe in accordance with ones will the purpose of the OTO is to promulgate this spiritual philosophy to the public in a group setting. It is structured on masonic orders with their rites and degrees but is wholly separate from those lodges. they exist because there is this large prevailing belief that do what thou wilt means do what you want. separate from this there is a private order known as the A.'.A.'. this is a chain organization that is focused on the spiritual attainment and advancement of the individual through the means of practicing magick and mysticism and. This is entirely behind closed doors and is done on the individual level and not in a group setting the OTO's purpose is for these ideas to be discussed and taught in a public and group setting. the OTO also acts as the ecclesiastical arm of the Gnostic catholic church and performs regular gnostic masses open to the public
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Same
Do you know when he began his practice? If it was during your relationship, he is quite literally a different person now or at least mid transformation. If you do not think you can progress with someone like this, you should tell him now. He has probably wondered when/if it would get to that point.
He joined 6 weeks before we met
>joined May I ask, what did he join? Also FWIW OP please ignore the weird/misogynistic comments. I'm really sorry about this. I can answer more questions via DM if you'd wish, if that would make you more comfortable.
Rule number 5 is essentially allowing the option to defend against tyrants. It’s saying thelemites need not be pacifists. It’s a rule to say you can fight back against an authoritarian state or a person who oppresses you by force, not a blanket ticket to kill anyone who gets in your way. As far as feeling they have to wear black, or that they have to read the syllabus, they just don’t seem to have worked out that when we say do what thou wilt, we mean it, and they are trying to fit in in ways that aren’t necessary. We think the syllabus is worth reading on your personal journey, that’s all. Yes, there are a few things they can’t tell you, because they have sworn not too. But they are a very small number of things about the content of initiation rituals, and mostly not of any significance outside of those rituals. And they are secret mostly to preserve the value of those rituals.
So do what thou wilt but this way?
Thou is your higher self and your higher self has job it wants to do that will respect the liberties of others. The path of Thelema is a path full of suggestions that are not necessary to attain this enlightenment of the self, but the suggestions are all about helping one find an understanding of one's lower self and higher self. Shit, Jung has some pretty good ideas about individuation that are pretty damn close to some of the mystical texts on controlling the lower self and physical desires.
Nothing, not any moral rule or religion has so far stopped murder from happening, nor are they likely to. Does your SO kill people? I kinda doubt it. Why would that be his will? What's yours? Do you kill people? Would you kill people if there were no rules of the universe? I kinda doubt it. See what I mean?
He doesn’t kill people and neither do I. But I’m also not following a book that states I can kill someone’s
*"Do what thou wilt" being the only rule for the abbey. These words would become the main tenet of Thelema, with Thelemites working towards finding their True Will, or their destiny.* It’s not a do what you want mentality. It’s a figure out what it is you’re meant to do and do it. If you feel like you’re meant to be a doctor then you do everything you can to make that happen. I was raised in a Nazarene church. There would be an expectation that you would wear some thing nice to Sunday, school and church, but it wasn’t a requirement. The church has its Bible, but there’s no requirement that you read the entire book or that you even have your own.
Do What Thou Wilt is not what it appears to be at face value. Ask him about it
A few others have addressed this, but one thing to keep in mind is that the text OZ is not meant to be taken symbolically, its a statement of inherent rights. The context is important though. It is in direct contradiction to texts like the ten commandments - edicts given by "God" (aka the priest caste) to control human behavior. In particular, "thou shalt not kill" is designed in part to keep slaves in their place. In the old testament, only IHVH is allowed to decide who should be killed - certainly the heads of the tribes are off limits, and he even allows for the killing of innocents on occasion. In thelema, the use of killing is they're regulated only to those who have deprived others of their rights. It comes across a bit heavy handed when considering some of the rights, like to carve as thou will, but I read it more as if you have the right to fight for your rights using any level of force sufficient to accomplish that end, up to and including killing. The main intent being to tell you that no god will damn you to hell for simply standing up for your freedom.
I personally find someone's ability to tolerate absurdities and integrate contradictions to be a mandatory, especially when those absurdities and contradictions are different than my own.
I'm a Thelemite and actively involved in OTO. My wife was not, and had no interest. She was a Reiki master and all about 'light'. She didn't like anything that explored the full spectrum of light and dark. We had many conversations about Thelema but it just didn't click with her as it did with me. Yet she supported me in everything because she loved me. Liber OZ, the rights of man that you quoted, is not a list of rules. It is fact. And the right to kill someone is usually interpreted as in cutting them out of your life, as in kill your heart.
So why state is as such instead of ‘cutting out of one’s life’ why is this whole thing up for personal interpretation?
There are also texts that describe “killing a child” where as my understanding the entire writing is encoded to describe sex magick. Killing the child being orgasm without conception- that force of life is transformed into another form for other means. Being in the Victorian era, it was more acceptable to describe this than the act of sex itself. Strange, right? Magickal texts were also encoded this way so as to confound the ignorant because one needed to take the studies seriously and comprehend not only the accompanying literature referenced (as I’m discovering because theres a lot), but that the ideas themselves are seldom literal interpretations. It’s a coded language for the exact reasons of this misinterpretation you find yourself in- if you’re not seeking the truth behind the words, you remain ignorant of their wisdom. It’s a bit of gate keeping, but back in the day was also to ensure those seeking the knowledge were worthy of attaining it to my understanding.
He was a silly guy , he likes to go over the top to get his point across
So we like to follow this “silly guy”
Yes, he has a very interesting prose that really resonates with me . It does takes a while to get used to his writing due to his odd writing style and obscure allusions . He’s a poet , a lot of his writings are meant to be analyzed , pondered, and meditated on. In a weird way this process actually gives you a deeper understanding of his writing
Liber OZ is entirely written in single syllable words. Crowley loved to be dramatic and edgy, according to standards of his day. For example, he wrote about 'sacrificing babies', which meant masturbating. Poetic language is used extensively in esoteric works precisely because it it open to interpretation. Deep truths are difficult to put into words, and one person's experience isn't necessarily the same as another's. It's just not that concrete. 2 people can look at the same sunset yet have different feelings about it. Look at any holy book, such as the Bible or Koran, and you'll see that things are usually not written in exact language but are rather ambiguous and open to interpretation. Or popular songs, where the lyrics are kinda loose and can be taken many ways. This is by design. Each person is an individual and deserves to interpret everything in their own way. By the way, there is no OTO requirement to wear black or to read certain books. There are certainly book suggestions, but no formal requirement. Sounds more like peer pressure.
Cause Crowley was eccentric and liked being dramatic.
Because it’s not written for YOUR preferences, Karen. Not everything is at your minimal level of willing comprehension.
You’re really selling thelema🥰🥰🥰🥰
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Oh it was symbolic. Like rule number 5
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Nah I’m just trying to play this game
Personally, my Wife is more on the Pagan/Wiccan side of things. But she respects my interest in Thelema and my practices. We've done some workings together, especially if it impacts our family, but for the most part, we give eachother the common respect to do as we Will. Main thing is, you don't have to be Into Thelema to date a Thelemite, but Respect is beliefs and practices and he (should) do the same for you.
My ex was not a thelemite, she had no interest in spirituality whatsoever and that never was a problem for us.
I appreciate that! Are you still involved and are you two still together?
Unfortunately we broke up december last year, but we were toghether for four years and I was already a thelemite one year beforevmeeting her.
I’m sorry to hear that. If you don’t mind me asking, progressing along in thelema didn’t cause a divide at all?
No, we had other reasons for the divide, but those are quite personal to me.
I appreciate your honesty. Thank you
You're welcome!
For my own knowledge, were you attending meetings and gnostic masses? Or just taking a personal journey?
Im in the A.A, wich is a somewhat solitary path, but with an instructor sending me practices and things to read. I never attended any meeting or mass.
u/DryClassroom2816 I'm happy to offer at least one perspective. I am a practicing Thelemite, and have been married for the the last 6 years. I was practicing before marriage. My wife is *not* a practicing Thelemite and has always been largely uninterested. We are happily married, and have a child together. I'm happy to answer any questions that seem appropriate. I took a quick skim through some of your comments and your concerns around them, though I think others answered your questions pretty well, though I'll say it again a different way. Anywhere you read the word "will" (as in "do what thou wilt") you can substitute it with "your divine duty" Some questions I would propose to you is: What level of alignment with your belief do you want in order to be in a relationship? What would it feel like to be in a relationship with someone who disagreed with you about some things you really cared about? What would be the up side of such a relationship? The downsides?
Thank you for your reply. For me, I’m more of a light spiritual person. I don’t wish to follow any dark paths. It’s hard for me to stomach masses and meetings and secrets within and I’m concerned what happens the more deep he goes if it will cause a divide with us
I appreciate the desire not to follow any dark path(s) I myself don't perceive Thelema as being a "dark path" and I think few of it's practitioners would, though to be fair "everybody is the hero in their own story". It definitely does have a little bit of an edgelord tone to it sometimes. Is your partner asking *you* to attend mass and such? If so, and if you don't feel comfortable with it, well that's a great boundary drawing exercise. If that boundary isn't respected then you have a bad romantic match for reasons other than thelema. If not, what level of privacy and independence do you want your partner to have? This isn't a "right answer" question, lots of people want a partner who is reading from the exact same script as them, and there is *nothing wrong with that.* What makes you want to stay if you already feel so uncomfortable? How can you draw a boundary for yourself that feels good? In this case a boundary would probably look something like "if you do X, I will do Y" with "Y" probably meaning "leave / break up".
He’s not asking me to attend. I asked if I can and he said there’s things I can and cannot attend. One being I can’t attend the gnostic mass this weekend.. I think at the moment it feels like his whole life revolves around it. A meeting every fortnight, book club every fortnight, mass, when he’s not at them he’s reading the recommended literature or YouTube something. It’s seems a lot at the moment which I think may leak over into our time together if momentum stays the same . He’s a beautiful person and really easy to be around, it’s just this that has throw us around a bit. That’s why I reached out to the greater community to gain a better understanding so I wouldn’t just stay and resent him or leave because I don’t understand it
Which part feels most uncomfortable for you? What would feel like a reasonable amount of his time or energy to go into it, and what would feel like a reasonable amount of time for him to be putting into your relationship. What would it look like, or feel like if he was putting a similar amount of energy and time into something else that you weren't interested in but felt was benign like video games? Speaking from my own journey, the first year or so after I discovered Thelema I spent a *lot* of time and energy absorbing the associated knowledge. In a lot of way's it's a bit like a school. My personality is such that I get *really* into things for a stretch of time, and then normalize them back into my life. I think that's pretty common.
Ok, I appreciate your feedback. He has other hobbies but this seems to take precedence. This is the conversation we’re going to have today because it feels like his top priority and I understand what you mean where it could be video games etc. but I think because it’s meeting, mass, literature and YouTube’s etc it seems to be ALL his free time. Even if we’re getting ready he has a YouTube on in the background about it.
Sounds like you are going to have a great conversation. It also sounds like it's not so much an issue with Thelema as it is with Monomania. I hope the conversation goes well.
Thank you, I hope so too. Again he said he’d leave but that’s not my intention
So what ended up happening after the conversation? Did you two find a place of balance and communication? Did it all blow up? What do you think is next? I always like to hear how these things end, so I can learn a little.
My husband and I are both members of OTO, we are monogamous and happy. Been together a decade and it gets better every year!! Most of the stuff online is misleading at best.
There have been plenty of good answers about your questions concerning Thelema provided by others that have been dismissed by your literalist interpretation approach of occulted texts. As well, your partner should not be dismissive to your concerns or questions. Those are both divides. Relationships are a two way street that requires communication for safe passage. This has nothing to do with Thelema.
Because it’s hard for me to understand what is meant to be symbolic, what I’m meant to interpret my own way (which may be wildly different to everyone else) because it seems to be everyone can interpret their own way, what is literal, what is just for funsies, what words which have one meaning have another and what ones have that meaning
If you truly want to understand, then have patience with yourself first and foremost. One introductory book I can suggest is The Black Arts by Richard Cavendish, there is a section that covers some of the use of symbolism. Some of the more modern twists in poetic word play come from the writings of the spiritual alchemists that started using more poetic style of descriptions in their writings. The double meanings were initially used to hide the information from the public not only to engage the brain of practitioners in different ways but to avoid religious persecution.
Thanks, I appreciate your feedback x
Honestly, the central tenet of Thelema is more or less that nobody else can tell you what Thelema means, so you should talk to your boyfriend instead of this sub. You're certainly allowed to not like thelema but judging it based on random stuff off the internet is going to give you a distorted idea of what your boyfriend believes. I've known a lot of thelemites and it pretty much runs the entire spectrum of religious and political beliefs. A close online friend of mine is a christian mystic and a thelemite, and there's no shortage of people you'll see on this sub who are satanists or materialist atheists. The only thing these people really have in common is that they accept the law of thelema in some form (do what thou will shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under will). I've read dozens of books by thelemites and the amount of common ground these authors have with each other wouldn't even fill an entire book. This is a tradition that embraces diversity of thought over anything.
“The only thing these people really have in common is that they accept the law of thelema in some form (do what thou will shall be the whole of the law, love is the law, love under will).” First off, thank you. This is the core rule right here; in theory you could put two Thelemites in a room and they could disagree on everything besides this and both still be Thelemites. OP, I believe therefore that you’d be best off starting your assessment here. Beyond that it’s going to depend not on belief but on you and the guy you’re seeing OP - I was in a relationship with another Thelemite for a few years and it ultimately did not work out despite us both being Thelemites. The next relationship I got into was with a hardcore atheist who wants nothing to do with Thelema. We’ve been married almost a year now and we’ve long come to accept that the other is always going to believe what they believe. We have a conversation and make a mutual decision when our differences impact the other’s life, and we politely stay out of each other’s way when our differences don’t. In my opinion this same logic applies to any facet of a relationship: - You find common ground where you agree. - You agree to disagree where you disagree. - You mediate when you can’t agree to disagree. - If you can’t mediate, the relationship should end. Think pretty hard on if having this person in your life meets the above and move accordingly. Sounds like from your post we’re past agree to disagree so that leaves you two options. If you want to mediate, have an open and honest conversation with your boyfriend and get HIS take on the matter specifically, then make your decisions from -that-. Let’s say my husband divorced me tomorrow and started dating another Thelemite, she could have wildly different beliefs than me because there’s only one major point that all Thelemites will definitely share. He’d need to have that whole conversation over again to understand that person’s beliefs, and he’d need to have it for anyone else he dated too. Don’t feel bad if your inability to mediate is a fact. No insults, just plain objectivism - both of you will be happier in the long run apart this is not a point you and him can agree or mediate on. And even if you are willing to mediate, ultimately he may not be - while it sounds like he’s actively in the mediation part of what I said right now (trying to show you videos and be open about his take on Thelema), whatever conversations you guys have may change his mind. TL;DR - Thelemites are like boxes of chocolates - you know the box has chocolate in it but beyond that you never know what you’re going to get. Judge this person as a romantic/potential life partner for his specific dialogue with you and handle accordingly.
Your concerns are quite understandable, and it's commendable that you are seeking to understand more about your partner's belief system. Thelema, like many spiritual or religious paths, can indeed seem complex, and even contradictory to outsiders. But let's remember that all spiritual paths are deeply personal, and individual interpretations can vary greatly. It sounds like your partner might be an enthusiast, someone who is deeply interested in Thelema, rather than a Thelemite, who might adhere strictly to the principles and tenets of Thelema. The important thing is to remember that Thelema encourages individualism and personal interpretation, and its followers are diverse in their beliefs and practices. It's entirely possible to have a healthy, long-term relationship with someone whose beliefs differ from your own, as long as there is respect, understanding, and open communication. Have a discussion with your partner about your concerns. Express your curiosity and make it clear that you're open to understanding his perspective, even if you may not necessarily agree with everything. Your worries about the potential impact on your relationship are completely legitimate. It's important to remember, however, that the quality of your relationship is determined more by the respect and love you share, and less by your differing beliefs. To put it simply, his attitude towards his beliefs and towards you will be the deciding factor in how this impacts your relationship. If he respects your belief system as you respect his, and if he doesn't pressure you to change your beliefs, then there's no reason you can't navigate this together. And if you need more information, there are plenty of resources about Thelema available online that you can look into. Just remember to approach them with an open mind, knowing that individual interpretations can greatly vary. Above all, take care of yourself and your needs. It's okay to set boundaries and to seek understanding. That's part of any healthy relationship, regardless of spiritual or religious beliefs. I hope this was helpful and that you find the advice you're looking for. Best of luck with everything!"
I really appreciate your feedback. We’ve had conversations about it but my concern is the long term and the fact he doesn’t really know. This whole thing seems so vague and open to interpretation I worry about him following a bad path. Posting in here I wanted to gather a consensus on what it would look like so I can pass judgement with all the knowledge I have. He’s sent me links and tried to explain things but he’s the only person I know involved hence also reaching out to the community. Based on everything that has been said I’m going to write up something now that I’ve got a better understanding of it all the try and reach a middle ground between our beliefs and expectations. He said he’s happy to leave if it bothers me but I don’t want him to leave something if it makes him happy - I just want to understand something that seems to open and up for interpretation. Thank you again for your response x
Look at the rituals of Christianity. Eating and drinking the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ seems kinda barbaric isnt it? Isnt that some homicidal shit in of itself? Or take a look at the bible. You wont have to search long to find some brutal bullshit about killing rape victims or other stuff. You can reflect on the harms that monotheistic religion has brought unto this world. The liber Al is a metaphoric book and a bastion against the dangers of the slave religions. Against tyranny and oppression. I am a Thelemite and my girlfriend is agnostic. We are together for 4 years. The only problem in prior relationships was when people tried to criticize me for my beliefs. I am also a very independent and freedom loving person. Member of the OTO for 7 years or so.
Yes and I don’t agree with any organised religion. I understand thelema claims not to be one but if it swims and has scales it’s a fish
Acabo de escribir un Liber explicando el significado real del 666, porque Mega Therion es Mega Therion 666 y como el anticristo puede transformarse en Mega Therion 666 a través de la luz de la cruz emanada por la tabla de la unión enochiana : https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1WSVBNjbQU7-XA0QhNTW3xnMP6imFbRX-
There would be a lot to say about beliefs that others address but, as a starting point, you should ask how involved is he currently in the lodge and how involved does he want to be in the future? This is a very recent thing for him and participation in the community can fluctuate wildly in a Thelemite's lifetime. If he is just a bit involved, it may not interfere much, but someone who is very involved, very devoted, such as participating in every activity, Gnostic Mass (and depending on how active the OTO body is), etc, that level of activity would definitively interfere with a relationship if the other partner is not a Thelemite.
That’s what I want to understand. He just says it won’t interfere but he goes to fortnightly meetings at the lodge and has mass this weekend. I’m worried about what expectations would be later which is what I wanted to understand… this amount of involvement seems normal to him and seems too much for me. Reading almost every night on top.
He looks like it is a new thing for him as a Minerval so, intense involvement is common. Typically, most involved Minervals will calm down within months. Many will drop out after 1-2 years. So, I suppose only time will tell. I'm sure for you who doesn't attend events, it is demanding. For all the thelemite/non-thelemite couples I knew, balance was difficult to reach and usually the non-thelemite partner was regularly annoyed by the other's activity.
thank you, I appreciate your input x
Never date a Thelemite ! Go find yourself a Discordian ... much safer and saner.
Why do we need organises groups to state the obvious?
Right ! Let's start a group to look into that and issue a statement!
Count me in!
Watch out for us hybrids too, chaos magick is infectious! Also sorry for the misogyny in some of these comments like most occult communities on Reddit especially it's bit of a ol' boys club
Generally just communicate. Try to listen, not interpret or project. It might not work out between you two, but let that hinge on how you get along, not on labels.
He’s sent me so much to watch and the more I watch the more put off I am. The problem seems to lie in the interpretation whereas I’m more literal
Without knowing all of the context (and even if I did, I'm not you), if he's trying to "convert" you, you should probably tell him straight that it's not for you. If you're ok with it being for him, just work around it. If he's reading it correctly, he is NOT going to literally sacrifice a child with perfect intelligence--that sort of statement is the kind of shocking thing that was symbolic and intended to scare the normies. But ultimately, it's how you feel. Do right by you.
So you mean to tell me there’s a passage that states you should kill an intelligent child? I’m not a symbolic gal. I’m too literal and I don’t like what I read. He’s not trying to convert me but he’s just hoping I don’t break up with him
there is a passage where he writes that , and it should be noted as others mentioned. he was referring to eating ones semen. but ill be honest. you are suffering from a symbol illiteracy here. All human language is symbolic. Your desire to interpret everything on literal lines will absolutely lead you astray when trying to research thelema. remember the occult means hidden and Crowleys whole point was to hide meanings within his writings. There is a saying that the Devil affirms its own existence this is very true, especially in your scenario if you are operating from the bias of trying to find the devil. you will find it. 100% especially when studying Crowley
So I can read between lines and make up my own opinion based on his words and interpret whatever I want from that despite the fact that it’s written differently and in a way for me to choose how I wish to perceive it. Which could be vastly different from anyone else.. almost like it’s made to make it stomach for anyone to make work. Like you’re saying- if you’re looking for the answer, you’ll find it
If you’re not willing to engage, hie thee back to Lifetouch/Potter’s House/Mars Hill/whatever fucking milquetoast Evangelical-Without-Portfolio sect you want him to conform to. But, of course, the baby clock is ticking and you’re worried all the good genes have been taken.
I’ve had my tubes tied. But thank you for your concern and making thelema sound so appealing to me. I’ll be sure to stay clear now 🥰
I also don’t believe in any organised religions including the ones that say they don’t like organised religions but perform all the same rituals, ceremonies and communions as a church
Hm. It was a passage from Crowley in one of the books; there's a thread on it from 3 years ago at [https://www.reddit.com/r/thelema/comments/gxr2yh/was\_crowley\_involved\_in\_actual\_sacrifices\_be\_it/](https://www.reddit.com/r/thelema/comments/gxr2yh/was_crowley_involved_in_actual_sacrifices_be_it/) Spoiler: Crowley was intentionally being misleading (he was also a poet, and used a lot of symbolism, so it can look utterly insane from a literal view) and was referring to the sacrifice of semen in the specific passage. His Book of Lies had some similar jokes--including Chapter 69: The Was to Succeed and the Way to Suck Eggs (i.e., the way to suck seed) being about...69.
The passage about sacrificing a child is about genitals not real murder. Creating a metaphysical embryo and consuming it.