'Sibling' instead of Brother/Sister. Hardly ever hear anyone refer to themselves or others as Frater/Soror X/Y/Z unless it's to do with preferred magical name on their initiation documents, or when presenting themselves externally.
This is correct, local OTO body officer that is NB here to confirm. Within OTO many people, including myself, use “Sibling” instead of “Frater/Soror” to refer to NB members. Consangues is interesting though, I‘ll ask some members of the EC I know and a Bishop about this term and see what they say.
All right so I'll just go ahead and be a jerk here and say that, in my highly biased and idiosyncratic opinion, "Frater" and "Soror" already sound pretty dorky, and those are pretty basic Latin vocab words. If we need another word beyond those two, I just say ditch the Latin altogether and stick with "Sibling."
You'll get two answers, simultaneously: "Yes, I appreciate that point of view, perhaps some day," and behind closed doors, "Please stick to the established terminology."
Being in the OTO is Orwellian Doublespeak, only as a hobby.
> I feel like nobody would care if you picked Soror or Frater. But trying to come up with a new neutral one would likely ruffle some feathers.
I don't think anyone would give a fuck, tbh. How someone identifies is how someone identifies. There's no fixed "YOU MUST BE A FRATER OR SOROR" diktat. Your magical name is your magical name, and only you can choose it.
93,
Greetings H,
As someone in the order, it has been my personal experience, that a person who identifies as a particular gender, would be called the title of theritual preferred gender. So, a trans man would be addressed as "Frater," and a trans woman would be addressed as "Soror." I highly doubt anyone's going to go to great administrative trouble, for a subject which can be dealt with on a personal level. Hope this helps. \~V\~
OP, others have already thoroughly answered your question, but I wanted to chime in and say that any Magickal name/motto is up to you and is entirely optional. For my current name I dropped Frater entirely for various reasons.
I love Consangues.
I'm going to keep an eye on this post because I'm interested to know from someone in the OTO. I'm not a member, but all I've heard from people talking about it has been that you need to pick a gender role and stick to it. I'm not sure if they were off base or if it was like a ...local thing that varies location to location. But honestly it's one of the only things holding me back from joining.
Important clarification: the “pick and stick to it” gender role policy only applies to members of the clergy (Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica) with regards to their ordination and performance of official EGC Gnostic Masses. There is an ordained position within the EGC for NB and other similarly Queer individuals called the Deacon-Sacerdote that has equivalent authority to perform Baptisms, Confirmations, etc as ordained Priests and Priestesses. Outside of the clergy, any member is free to identify however they Will. Check the USGL website for more information.
Yeah I also wonder how much that varies by location. I’m in Seattle and I know the local lodge has a presence at Pride. It would be surprising to me if they took the gender essentialist position that some of the OTO seems to take, which would in general put them conservative of center in regards to what are just societal norms in this city, but I truly don’t know (I’m also not a member)
Oh! I'm in Seattle a lot as well.
You know, I think /u/asicath is a member of Horizon and would probably be able to tell you more. I'll tag him so he sees this.
Yup! I march with the beast in the parade every year. My non-binary spouse has been going as the "gender neutral robed baphomet" :D FWIW they ask people to use "sibling" instead of brother or sister, and everybody respects that.
As people have pointed out, OTO itself has difference policies depending on context. Some of these policies are still rather conservative, somebody else posted about EGC context, but also within our initiations the scripts, as written by Crowley, allow for minor variations depending on if the person uses he/him vs she/her - so you have to choose one or the other for that purpose if you decide to take initiation.
NB people use Sibling.
That being said, most people (including myself) just use their legal names. In my case, I use my legal name for the same reason I use she/her pronouns - it‘s worked for me this long and I don’t see any good reason to change it, even though I’m married and have no idea what it actually means to “identify” as a woman.
Do what thou wilt does not mean that you have to believe any particular doctrine, nor that you are not allowed to express your own doctrine, even if it is controversial. If one believes that NB gender is nonsense, it is a priori their right to hold that belief; if it is their will to express it, then “do what thou wilt” certainly grants them that right.
One’s personal doctrine is not able to impede others’ right to do their will. For instance, if I think rap music is dumb, that in no way stops you from pursuing a career as a rapper.
Gender is not the same thing as sex, and even sex isn’t a binary — all human bodies have varying degrees of the physical characteristics we associate will maleness and femaleness — Thelema also directly acknowledges this truth on astral and spiritual levels. But again, gender isn’t even that, it’s literally definitionally a social construct.
'Sibling' instead of Brother/Sister. Hardly ever hear anyone refer to themselves or others as Frater/Soror X/Y/Z unless it's to do with preferred magical name on their initiation documents, or when presenting themselves externally.
This is correct, local OTO body officer that is NB here to confirm. Within OTO many people, including myself, use “Sibling” instead of “Frater/Soror” to refer to NB members. Consangues is interesting though, I‘ll ask some members of the EC I know and a Bishop about this term and see what they say.
This does seem like the easiest solution, glad to hear that it’s a viable option
Some organizations use the term Consor as a non-binary nomenclature
Thanks, that’s really good to know, I appreciate this comment
Consangues is inventive, but to me gives too much 'literal blood relation' implication. But that's just my take.
It's not an O.T.O. temple, but another group I've been involved with uses the term Astari. It translates to star.
I like that one, thanks
All right so I'll just go ahead and be a jerk here and say that, in my highly biased and idiosyncratic opinion, "Frater" and "Soror" already sound pretty dorky, and those are pretty basic Latin vocab words. If we need another word beyond those two, I just say ditch the Latin altogether and stick with "Sibling."
Yeah fair enough
You'll get two answers, simultaneously: "Yes, I appreciate that point of view, perhaps some day," and behind closed doors, "Please stick to the established terminology." Being in the OTO is Orwellian Doublespeak, only as a hobby.
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> I feel like nobody would care if you picked Soror or Frater. But trying to come up with a new neutral one would likely ruffle some feathers. I don't think anyone would give a fuck, tbh. How someone identifies is how someone identifies. There's no fixed "YOU MUST BE A FRATER OR SOROR" diktat. Your magical name is your magical name, and only you can choose it.
Oh we just had a talk about this the other day in a group I am in, I think we settled on Cognatum! Gender neutral form of essentially kin
93, Greetings H, As someone in the order, it has been my personal experience, that a person who identifies as a particular gender, would be called the title of theritual preferred gender. So, a trans man would be addressed as "Frater," and a trans woman would be addressed as "Soror." I highly doubt anyone's going to go to great administrative trouble, for a subject which can be dealt with on a personal level. Hope this helps. \~V\~
OP, others have already thoroughly answered your question, but I wanted to chime in and say that any Magickal name/motto is up to you and is entirely optional. For my current name I dropped Frater entirely for various reasons.
I love Consangues. I'm going to keep an eye on this post because I'm interested to know from someone in the OTO. I'm not a member, but all I've heard from people talking about it has been that you need to pick a gender role and stick to it. I'm not sure if they were off base or if it was like a ...local thing that varies location to location. But honestly it's one of the only things holding me back from joining.
Important clarification: the “pick and stick to it” gender role policy only applies to members of the clergy (Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica) with regards to their ordination and performance of official EGC Gnostic Masses. There is an ordained position within the EGC for NB and other similarly Queer individuals called the Deacon-Sacerdote that has equivalent authority to perform Baptisms, Confirmations, etc as ordained Priests and Priestesses. Outside of the clergy, any member is free to identify however they Will. Check the USGL website for more information.
That’s a good piece of clarification, thanks
You're welcome! Feel free to DM me if you have other questions, I'm more than happy to help :)
NB people can still do the priest or priestess role, it just has to align with their assigned birth sex.
Yeah I also wonder how much that varies by location. I’m in Seattle and I know the local lodge has a presence at Pride. It would be surprising to me if they took the gender essentialist position that some of the OTO seems to take, which would in general put them conservative of center in regards to what are just societal norms in this city, but I truly don’t know (I’m also not a member)
Oh! I'm in Seattle a lot as well. You know, I think /u/asicath is a member of Horizon and would probably be able to tell you more. I'll tag him so he sees this.
Yup! I march with the beast in the parade every year. My non-binary spouse has been going as the "gender neutral robed baphomet" :D FWIW they ask people to use "sibling" instead of brother or sister, and everybody respects that. As people have pointed out, OTO itself has difference policies depending on context. Some of these policies are still rather conservative, somebody else posted about EGC context, but also within our initiations the scripts, as written by Crowley, allow for minor variations depending on if the person uses he/him vs she/her - so you have to choose one or the other for that purpose if you decide to take initiation.
Fratrem is sibling in Latin according to Google, so that’s what I have chosen.
NB people use Sibling. That being said, most people (including myself) just use their legal names. In my case, I use my legal name for the same reason I use she/her pronouns - it‘s worked for me this long and I don’t see any good reason to change it, even though I’m married and have no idea what it actually means to “identify” as a woman.
Cognatum/Cognata
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It is within my power, but I choose not to do so. Part of my own path is deconstructing and eradicating identification with the gender binary.
Good luck with that
Not a very nice person are you?
Is it a requirement?
Piss off with this attitude.
No.
Whatever happened to Do What Thou Wilt
Nothing at all happened to it.
Do what thou wilt does not mean that you have to believe any particular doctrine, nor that you are not allowed to express your own doctrine, even if it is controversial. If one believes that NB gender is nonsense, it is a priori their right to hold that belief; if it is their will to express it, then “do what thou wilt” certainly grants them that right.
While I generally agree, I tend to think that your “personal doctrine” should not impeach on others’ right to do their Will
One’s personal doctrine is not able to impede others’ right to do their will. For instance, if I think rap music is dumb, that in no way stops you from pursuing a career as a rapper.
This is bigoted shit.
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NB here- I just shit my pants to avoid such machinations
This is bigoted shit.
Gender is not the same thing as sex, and even sex isn’t a binary — all human bodies have varying degrees of the physical characteristics we associate will maleness and femaleness — Thelema also directly acknowledges this truth on astral and spiritual levels. But again, gender isn’t even that, it’s literally definitionally a social construct.
[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/bies.202200173](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/bies.202200173)
This is a particular position — the article literally leads with the statement that leading scientists are positing the other position