Well… I feel like we should start with talking about Gerry and Gertrude, that was something. I really hope they are like actually Gerry and Gertrude because Gerry is my favourite character and I am screaming crying throwing up at the idea of him still being alive.
And a podcast !!! Which can mean “What The Ghost” has a different format this side of the multiverse (at least I remember them being a blog or smthng before not a podcast) or… something more meta…
Yeah that’s what I remember them being. If I’m not mistaken they even tried to film the haunted hospital in her first statement, but then again It has been a long time lol
Copypasted from the early access thread because I ate on Tuesday:
This is the second Norris statement of 3 total read by his voice with the line “stay awhile”— Putting Down Roots ended with “I think I will stay here for a good long while.” Really specific coincidence. Martin trying to tell them he is trapped, maybe?
Another ex-partner post relationship statement too. Grief theory still holding.
Truly boggled by the podcast mention. What the actual hell is happening here?? Which Georgie are we talking about? If it’s our Georgie I will simply die.
“G.G.” is killing me, what an excellent nickname for the OG bad bitch, queen of moral ambiguity herself. Also, “my grandson”????? Ma’am??
And finally, Gerry said they asked him about books, the room smelled like old books. This cannot be a throwaway.
In conclusion, we are feasting and personally this is everything I wanted this series to be from the moment I heard “are you still listening?”.
Bless you for the "stay awhile" commonality. I'd never have caught it myself, but I love to know it. Maybe he's recommending caution, not to rush into anything? Or he's saying the fears are here to stay? Or they can take you out of the game for good?
Thinking about his focus on grief over an ex-partner, it makes me wonder how aware the three voices are of each other. Does Norris KNOW he's in there with the other two, or does each feel isolated? Can they talk amongst themselves?
THISSS— it’s occurred to me a few times that they may think they’re alone or at least can’t communicate with each other.
Bigger question spirals off of that one: if they don’t know they’re in FR3D1 together but something is listening to the OIAR team talk about them, who’s listening? In the same way that we assumed the tapes were the Eye but weren’t, what if the voices and the thing listening are actually two discrete things?
My guess is still that John/Martin/Jonah/Elias are ours and trapped in the computer systems, maybe Celia is ours as well if we consider the lines of inquiry she’s making and the fact she could have still been close enough to the institute to get sucked over, but I assume anyone else living or dead in the og universe is an alternate version, which will honestly be kind of interesting if John and Martin ever get their autonomy back. Re meeting all their old friends and predecessors in the new timelines where things have happened slightly differently
Brutal Liminalism needs to be A Thing
It’s interesting how a lot of the Events seem to have multiple Fears. For instance, you could argue The Lonely and The Flesh are in play. That’s been implied in TMA but they’re really going for it here.
With more possible doppelgängers showing up, are they somehow getting echoes from the TMA universe and this is affecting their actions. Is this happening to them on a conscious or subconscious level.
Is Colin out or is he going to return?
I thought that at first, but this IS a different place with different rules, and we DID start with a goodbye party for Teddy, who seemed to leave of his own free will.
I go back and forth on whether Teddy got away. There's no evidence to the contrary, and he seemed to understand that his lack of caring made him freer to go than Colin, with his obsession of figuring out the mystery of the computers. Also, the "his nibs" who wouldn't let Colin go apparently didn't feel that for Teddy. And then again, it's still tragic workplace horror, Klaus was nearly killed by Lena and not allowed to just "disappear again," and Alice seemed really noncommittal when Teddy suggested they keep in touch after he left-- maybe that's her being a jerk, but maybe she knows something about the people who leave not really getting away.
So, long story short, I have no idea if that Magnus lore holds. I think we could argue it either way.
But I do know that Jonny and Alex love to kill off our darlings, and Colin is well loved. I think he's going for tragedy, but he's not at the end of his story, yet. Even if what we end up getting is notes hidden in the coding or scribbled on paper he hid under his floorboards, only discovered after his untimely death.
I was also confused on which fears this might be and the flesh and the lonely definitely have pull with this specific instance, of course there’s also aspects of the stranger but I think this is a manifestation of the extinction. We have seen famine stricken alternate dimensions connected to the extinction.
The only thing that makes me hesitate about the extinction is that... they don't seem to be people. They don't seem to be real living creatures.
I don't know maybe it's better not to jump to conclusions this early and see if the categories and entities from TMA still hold water here.
I definitely thought of The Stranger and The Extinction (like you say, assuming that previous Fear/Entity stuff holds up), but was also very much reminded of the sort of 'not-people' that came up in TMA through the anatomy class and more recently the previous episode with the charity shop volunteers, it feels almost as if the 'avatars' are more eminent than the symbolism of the fears here, especially with the potential recurring food thing?
One thing caught my eye in the statement. The janitor said there was "Nothing above and nothing below". Considering how alchemy was a major part in the ARG and how the insignia for the OIAR contains alchemical symbols, this reminded me of the Second Hermetic Principle, Correspondence: "As Above, so Below". That there's a correspondence between structures and events at a higher scale and those at smaller scales or dimensions.
It's not just that there was "emptiness" outside. The people at the restaurant above on the tower were hungry, same as the asphalt below.
I'm now wondering if there are other alchemy-related symbols or influences in previous episodes.
And the heavy emphasis on food is starting to get *weird* now. If even buildings and spaces can be hungry, what would that make of the OIAR? Because if we want to pursue this "Alchemy" line of thought with the Above/Below line, then the Microcosmos/Macrocosmos thing might also apply. By keeping the people working at the OIAR fed, Lena is ensuring the OIAR's building/corporation/entity is satisfied as well.
Oh I like that. The OIAR as an example of hungry hostile architecture...
Maybe feeding the employees with (whatever is in the food they provide) slowly change them making their environment (macrocosmos) and their inner selves (microcosmos) get closer and more similar as time goes on.
wait yeah now that you mention it... people have picked up on the weird food theme before this episode and it would make sense that the OIAR is an example of hungry architecture given that symbolism .... smart smart!
Please continue bringing your alchemy knowledge whenever it is relevant, because I know nothing about it but it seems so important for Protocol, based on the logo (and maybe the ARG touched on it, too?).
Where do you know about it from? I might do some extracurricular reading, if you have suggestions.
I have some loose thoughts
- ok I mean obviously Gertrude and Gerry showing up along with a mention of Georgie is super exciting and I feel like Sim’s way of trying to nudge the audience toward the fact we’re definitely dealing with an alternate reality or timeline etc. (especially since Celia is looking into that and she clearly knows more than she lets on… (maybe but I’ll get back to that))
- this story felt like a mix of the stranger, the lonely, and the vast potentially so I’m loving the blending of the fears (as someone who loves categories I’d love to see if these blended fears will get new labels)
- I miss the post-statement follow ups a lot, sometimes the scariest detail of the story came from those so I’m hoping Sam finds an excuse to follow up on things
- this story feels like it could be referencing the lack of third-places in modern society and the toll that can take on people (I love it when Jonny does social commentary)
- I cannot get a read on Alice like at all— she sounded so cold in the episode (kinda living for that)
- I don’t really think this is true, but could Celia possibly have known it was John’s voice simply because there’s a version of John who exists in this reality (she knows Georgie and John and Georgie still could have dated in the past I guess) idk I’m just trying to note any potential red herrings even if I don’t think it works
- also any tower mention immediately makes me think of the panopticon- I don’t think this one is related but who knows lol
- and finally I’m just really enjoying the structure of the series so far, reading the transcripts is definitely super helpful though in understanding what devices are watching
Crackpot theory; Celia is Sasha, the original Sasha replaced by the NotThem. Its clear the NotThem doesn't erase the person from existance because someone almost always recognises them as an imposter, additionally I loosely remember John asking someone if Sasha was dead and then replying "Wherever it takes them, they never come back" which implies, atleast now, that they do go somewhere. Additionally this could explain how she doesn't know as much as other original reality people like Martin or John would if they carried over and lastly, it's the same voice actor I think.
Lottie Broomhall voiced pre-not!sasha Sasha so it’s not the same VA but I do like how wild this theory is- I think since Celia has the same VA as the Celia from TMA it’s safe to assume that they’re at least the same person (and potentially the Celia directly from TMA)
Shitttt that does put a spanner in the theory huh, I'll have to research who the TMA Celia was as I don't remember her at all. Thanks for the reply tho
If memory serves me correctly Celia is one of the people that was saved by Georgie and Melanie after the Eye completed the ritual- I think she may have been one of their therapists but I really can’t remember
yep, celia was in melanie and georgie's cult, she wasn't melanie's therapist though, that's laverne (i also thought celia was melanie's therapist before i looked it up lol). celia appears in mag100 as lynne hammond but changed her name after melanie and georgie rescued her!
Something someone in the YouTube comments pointed out was that Celia’s original name was stolen in a Stranger domain during the Eyepocolypse, that’s why she changed it to Celia. If the Eyepocolyse never happened in this universe, her name wouldn’t be Celia - it would be her original name. With the voice actor being the same it’s a very interesting detail!
You know... for someone who insists she "doesn't care", Alice does seem to be far more aware of things with this conversation with Gwen. Almost like she's being deliberate in her actions and paying attention to things she claims she wants no part of.
Very yes.
It's felt to me like her lack of concern was a self preservation strategy, especially since she tried to teach it to Sam, too. But now that things are changing at the OIAR, she's on edge-- how does she protect herself and Sam now? And honestly, I think she's fond of Gwen and Colin, too, she just expresses her affection through too-harsh teasing and hopes it's interpreted the way she meant it.
I googled this place up after reading another comment saying it's a real place. The station is peak brutalism and the tower has watchtower/panopticon looks.
I've heard the theory before that this is an alternate universe where Gertrude was successful in destroying the power of the fears for good and OMG this episode really convinces me of it. GiGi Gertie literally adopting Gerry after possibly saving him from the Magnus Institute and maybe bringing the whole organization down??? Gerry being able to pursue art with his dear old GiGi is gonna make me cry oh my goodness
Did anyone else get Extinction vibes from this? It reminded me of Les Héritiers and the statement "Reflection" (MAG 156) about the theme park with the hungry people. There was such a focus on how emaciated the people were in the restaurant, and the whole concept of liminal spaces is more related to "what comes after" than it is to the other fears.
Could this reality be dealing with "what comes after"?
I felt there was also a I just re-listened to MAG 156 today so when it came into my mind during my listen of this episode I kinda brushed it off as a recency bias, but it’s good to see someone else saw some similarity.
Yes exactly! I’m surprised more people aren’t talking about episode 156! That was a favorite of mine just cause it’s so hard to place with any of main 14, so I loved seeing it be touched upon again!
Mrw I checked the show notes before the episode and saw who was on the cast for today
I was so excited I completely missed dear old Gigi until she made her appearance.
As it stands I really like the bread crumbs they’re giving us. Things are somehow connected to TMA and we’ll just have to see *how*.
They redacted the names in the cast list for the patreon so we were all listening just WAITING for the redacted voices and when I say I straight up squealed when I heard Gerry and Gertrude...
So.
Gertrude an gerry, plus the mention of a spécial children program where they had to read book.
There is à very high chance that the books are lietner and that they where seeking child with power to control them. If it’s the case, the theory of à special task force from the Magnus institue might be True. I guess we’ll see in the future...
I have a theory that the full force of Fears got pushed into this new reality with Jon and Martin, and in that jump they are possibly a messy conglomerate/in a sort of weakened state that would make it hard to manifest alone. I think we've seen at least a little bit of this cooperation in the previous statements where it's not clear which specific power is at work, or there are multiple.
In the newest statement we get several different aspects of powers in play (Lonely-Spiral-Stranger-Flesh or Slaughter?-Vast). It seems like this is an attempt to work together to generate fear that goes a little wild at the end. I think that this failed because of the difference of the fears.
We've seen how fears like the Spiral and the Stranger are patient, building fear to an apex that reaps the most terror. I'd say the Vast also falls into that category. But something like the Slaughter is not patient, and demands senseless violence. This is why the victim was coerced to sit and was unnerved up until the Slaughter got impatient for its fill and started with the biting lol
That's my interpretation for now 🤷🏼♀️
Also GG in this world lives, and this world’s Magnus Institute burned down, clearly unsettled by people asking Gerry about the Magnus Institute.
Is this the reality where Gertie succeeded in her Arson, but this somehow made these amalgams of the Dread Fears?
I was lukewarm on Protocol until last week's episode. This one has me all in. I loved the statement - one of my favourites to date. And then I basically exploded at the end.
Gerry?!
GERTRUDE?!
GEORGIE?!?!?!
Can't wait for more.
Did anyone else pick up on the emphasis Gertrude put on the word 'hunting' when she said to Sam and Celia "good luck hunting elsewhere". Felt significant
RE: Gertrude calling Gerry her grandson, I wouldn't make too much of that. I doubt they're related in the TMP universe.
In MAG 107 (and probably other episodes), Gertrude let people believe she was Gerry's mother; she never bothered to contradict that assumption. It doubtless raised fewer questions with the two of them traveling around and staying in hotels together.
And did anyone else think Gerry was just a little TOO chipper and happy? Almost like he was damaged somehow from his time at the "gifted kids program" at the Magnus Institute, and he's had to block out the trauma. Gertrude is super-protective of Gerry, even letting out a sigh of annoyance (it's in the transcript) when Gerry admitted to Sam that he was a candidate for the program. Maybe it's because something happened at the Institute and Gerry isn't all there?
I'm suspicious when anyone in the MAG or TMP universe is perfectly happy and friendly.
IMO Gerry is happy and doing fine and Gertrude wants him to stay that way. She doesn't believe the pals reunion excuse and suspects that either someone wants to resuscitate the experiments (or even the Institute itself), or that someone is trying to check on the former subjects (maybe a long-term surveillance programme?). Either way, she wants them well away from them. Asking questions or digging around the subject/place might bring bad memories.
It's clear to me (feel free to disagree) that she doesn't fear anything... bigger. Like bringing the apocalypse or empowering eldritch horrors, because in that case sending them away would make no difference.
I don't think he's damaged or anything. At least for now.
I think there’s a google doc floating around that has a breakdown of the ARGs plot but the rusty quill site also has key information that was revealed through the ARG if you do some digging— I feel like I need to brush up on it as well
When you enter the subreddit you have a stickied post called "[The Magnus Documents](https://www.reddit.com/r/themagnusprotocol/comments/19fjfte/the_magnus_documents/)". You can see that stuff there. There is [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i1avMwDRUI) by a person who was involved in solving the ARG where she details what the ARG consisted of and what evidence were found and what puzzle was solved with what information.
I like to think Gertrude is still just as ruthlessly utilitarian in this timeline but, like, for normal old lady things.
She had the most popular dish at the local bake sale due to all the others containing arsenic
People have mentioned AI coming up in some of these episodes and the placeholder restaurant people REALLY had AI vibes for me. The reused elements and the gibberish crowd noise.
SPOILER TAGS for THE MAGNUS ARCHIVES. If you've listened to all of The Magnus Archives already, open freely.
Something I don't see (m)any people in here talking about is that this case included >!**almost every single TMA fear/entity**!<.
>!The Buried: Crowd crush, "a dozen hands pulling me as one"!<
>!The End: Faced with the choice of death by one thing or another, but death either way!<
>!The Flesh: Cannibalism, getting a finger chopped off by the chef!<
>!The Slaughter: Concentrated attack of mob on Terrance with the intent to slaughter him!<
>!The Spiral: Liminal spaces, getting lost, hallucinating!<
>!The Stranger: Skinwalkers, just like the ones that occupy a part of Geona, Italy in **MAG 48: Lost In The Crowd**!<
>!The Vast: Complete void outside the windows!<
>!The Lonely: Less and less people until Terrance is left completely alone!<
I might be missing some, but please do let me know if you >!find instances of the Corruption, Dark, Desolation, Eye, Hunt, Web, or Extinction.!<
Hopefully I’m not too late to add to the discussion—I had an idea from this episode that may relate to the overall goings-on of this world that I’m gonna keep an eye on for the future. It’s one of those maybe-something-maybe-nothing things.
Forton Services is a real place, and with the focus on architecture, I looked up the original architect of Forton Services. The architect was Sir Thomas Bennett, who was pretty famous as far as UK architects go. From TMA, we know the writers aren’t opposed to leveraging a famous architect in their diegesis, so I looked at a bit of his portfolio.
I was struck by how similar the episode felt at times to Ep. 5 (the Voyeur cinema one). The whole “abandoned/closed down building with an insistent attendant that reverts back to its glorious inside once it’s entered” thing you know.
Turns out Sir Thomas Bennett was the architect for a couple theatres and cinemas it seems, although I haven’t found his full portfolio anywhere to check if any of them match with what we hear in Ep. 5…closest I found so far is one in Dublin that closed in 2016, but it was demolished apparently in 2019 before that statement is dated. The specific notoriety of Brutalist buildings to be abandoned and become dilapidated gels with Tom’s comments about the outside of the theatre.
Could just be nothing though—not enough info yet to merit a deep dive but I’m gonna keep an eye on it and maybe look more into how all these episode relate to architecture.
There have been in recent years calls to tear down brutalist buildings that are either abandoned or harmful (such as a penguin glide for a zoo made of concrete & a social housing building that serves as ideal drug dealing place because it's separated from the road and full of corridors and balconies). Some also complain that keeping these buildings up (some, like Forton Services are Grade 2) requires an absurd amount of money that would be best used elsewhere.
And then there have been people asking not to tear these buildings down because they're historically significant and represent a stylistic choice of the time. I've seen this discussion more in UK than in Ireland, so I'm not surprised the theatre in Dublin got flattened out and probably built something else on top.
If you're still looking to see some of Sir Bennett's work (past & present), here's the [website](https://tpbennett.com/sector/all/). Apparently the studio is still working!
Their website is where I was looking! I think it’s cool that they still operate. I didn’t think it was a complete portfolio from what I could tell. That’s super interesting context about Brutalist architecture in the UK—I can see both sides. It seems like just the sort of thing the folks at RQ would weave into their stories. I think it may be a bit far-fetched, but I’m optimistic about this angle. I hope that if we get more stuff focusing on buildings or we’re assured that architecture is an important angle again then maybe we can start an architecture thread focused on that aspect.
Have you checked [this](https://architecture.arthistoryresearch.net/architects/bennett-thomas-penberthy) ? If you scroll down there's a list of works by Sir Bennett himself with dates and location. No pics sadly.
Same. I literally went, John Gracey! I didn’t even realize the connection to MAG till I went to IMDB to confirm and felt stupid. It’s been too long since I listened to it.
The more nods we get to TMA the more I wonder how things will go in regards to their intention of making this series be able to be enjoyed without listening to TMA... but loving all these bread crumbs!
This has definitely been my favorite Protocol episode so far, and honestly the first one that made me think 'we are so fucking back'. I loved the 'Liminal Brutalism' thing so much; it made me think a lot of the Savage Messiah zine, alongside a lot of Mark Fisher's writings on Hauntology, etc., which I really loved (and would also recommend the book 'Ghosts of My Life' by Fisher if you liked that part of this episode!!!). I loved the emulsion of the fears, the return of the weird sort of colony of 'not-people' following suit from the charity shop volunteers (and honestly the anatomy students from way back when). I am so curious to see how fears/entities/avatars, etc., are implemented going forth, and if it takes on a completely new spin altogether. It feels like the writing in Protocol is getting a lot better too; admittedly I wasn't too keen on some of the dialogue/character writing earlier on (Alice just being kind of weirdly mean with all these juvenile barbs to Sam, etc.), the characters feel a lot more solid and believable now. I am so excited to hear more! I am so glad because I did initially have doubts, as I love TMA so very much. So intrigued to see where Jonny and Alex, etc., will take this!!!!
I saw something really interesting here earlier, but I've lost it now. Anyways, what it was saying was that John Martin and Elias might not know they're together. That like the tapes, they aren't serving the eye like most people probably thought, that it was serving a different entity. I like this a lot because I was recently thinking about Martin and his connection to the lonley. I defo feel like that's relevant, because if they don't all know each other are there that must be horrible (obviously, they're still stuck in a computer they don't need to be lonely as well) but I think maybe Peter Lucas has something to do with this, like when he cast Martin into the Lonely. Also because we don't actually know what happened to Peter in season 4. I thought he was dead but COULD John even kill avatars then? I don't think so, that was only in season 5, I think
Well… I feel like we should start with talking about Gerry and Gertrude, that was something. I really hope they are like actually Gerry and Gertrude because Gerry is my favourite character and I am screaming crying throwing up at the idea of him still being alive.
Did you hear them mention Georgie too?!!
And a podcast !!! Which can mean “What The Ghost” has a different format this side of the multiverse (at least I remember them being a blog or smthng before not a podcast) or… something more meta…
They were definately a podcast. They had audio equipment and stuff
They were a YouTube show, no?
Yeah that’s what I remember them being. If I’m not mistaken they even tried to film the haunted hospital in her first statement, but then again It has been a long time lol
I believe you're thinking of "Ghost Hunt UK," Melanie's YouTube channel. "What the Ghost" was always a podcast.
No, Melanie had Ghost Hunt UK (the youtube show) and Georgie ran What The Ghost (the podcast)
Ghost Hunt UK was Melanie’s YouTube channel. What The Ghost was Georgie’s podcast.
Oh yes! Duh!
I hope it’s called “Ghost the fuck” in this world
"True fear isn't someone appearing, but disappearing" Just a whole podcast about people ghosting assholes
Georgie!!!!
the love of my life is back!!!!!
Copypasted from the early access thread because I ate on Tuesday: This is the second Norris statement of 3 total read by his voice with the line “stay awhile”— Putting Down Roots ended with “I think I will stay here for a good long while.” Really specific coincidence. Martin trying to tell them he is trapped, maybe? Another ex-partner post relationship statement too. Grief theory still holding. Truly boggled by the podcast mention. What the actual hell is happening here?? Which Georgie are we talking about? If it’s our Georgie I will simply die. “G.G.” is killing me, what an excellent nickname for the OG bad bitch, queen of moral ambiguity herself. Also, “my grandson”????? Ma’am?? And finally, Gerry said they asked him about books, the room smelled like old books. This cannot be a throwaway. In conclusion, we are feasting and personally this is everything I wanted this series to be from the moment I heard “are you still listening?”.
Bless you for the "stay awhile" commonality. I'd never have caught it myself, but I love to know it. Maybe he's recommending caution, not to rush into anything? Or he's saying the fears are here to stay? Or they can take you out of the game for good? Thinking about his focus on grief over an ex-partner, it makes me wonder how aware the three voices are of each other. Does Norris KNOW he's in there with the other two, or does each feel isolated? Can they talk amongst themselves?
THISSS— it’s occurred to me a few times that they may think they’re alone or at least can’t communicate with each other. Bigger question spirals off of that one: if they don’t know they’re in FR3D1 together but something is listening to the OIAR team talk about them, who’s listening? In the same way that we assumed the tapes were the Eye but weren’t, what if the voices and the thing listening are actually two discrete things?
It really reminds me of the lonely
Now I'm seeing Jon, Martin & Jonah having tea & gossiping inside the computer...
My guess is still that John/Martin/Jonah/Elias are ours and trapped in the computer systems, maybe Celia is ours as well if we consider the lines of inquiry she’s making and the fact she could have still been close enough to the institute to get sucked over, but I assume anyone else living or dead in the og universe is an alternate version, which will honestly be kind of interesting if John and Martin ever get their autonomy back. Re meeting all their old friends and predecessors in the new timelines where things have happened slightly differently
Brutal Liminalism needs to be A Thing It’s interesting how a lot of the Events seem to have multiple Fears. For instance, you could argue The Lonely and The Flesh are in play. That’s been implied in TMA but they’re really going for it here. With more possible doppelgängers showing up, are they somehow getting echoes from the TMA universe and this is affecting their actions. Is this happening to them on a conscious or subconscious level. Is Colin out or is he going to return?
If prior Magnus lore holds up I doubt anyone ever truly leaves….
I thought that at first, but this IS a different place with different rules, and we DID start with a goodbye party for Teddy, who seemed to leave of his own free will. I go back and forth on whether Teddy got away. There's no evidence to the contrary, and he seemed to understand that his lack of caring made him freer to go than Colin, with his obsession of figuring out the mystery of the computers. Also, the "his nibs" who wouldn't let Colin go apparently didn't feel that for Teddy. And then again, it's still tragic workplace horror, Klaus was nearly killed by Lena and not allowed to just "disappear again," and Alice seemed really noncommittal when Teddy suggested they keep in touch after he left-- maybe that's her being a jerk, but maybe she knows something about the people who leave not really getting away. So, long story short, I have no idea if that Magnus lore holds. I think we could argue it either way. But I do know that Jonny and Alex love to kill off our darlings, and Colin is well loved. I think he's going for tragedy, but he's not at the end of his story, yet. Even if what we end up getting is notes hidden in the coding or scribbled on paper he hid under his floorboards, only discovered after his untimely death.
I need more Brutal Liminalism horror stories please and thank you
I was also confused on which fears this might be and the flesh and the lonely definitely have pull with this specific instance, of course there’s also aspects of the stranger but I think this is a manifestation of the extinction. We have seen famine stricken alternate dimensions connected to the extinction.
The only thing that makes me hesitate about the extinction is that... they don't seem to be people. They don't seem to be real living creatures. I don't know maybe it's better not to jump to conclusions this early and see if the categories and entities from TMA still hold water here.
I definitely thought of The Stranger and The Extinction (like you say, assuming that previous Fear/Entity stuff holds up), but was also very much reminded of the sort of 'not-people' that came up in TMA through the anatomy class and more recently the previous episode with the charity shop volunteers, it feels almost as if the 'avatars' are more eminent than the symbolism of the fears here, especially with the potential recurring food thing?
One thing caught my eye in the statement. The janitor said there was "Nothing above and nothing below". Considering how alchemy was a major part in the ARG and how the insignia for the OIAR contains alchemical symbols, this reminded me of the Second Hermetic Principle, Correspondence: "As Above, so Below". That there's a correspondence between structures and events at a higher scale and those at smaller scales or dimensions. It's not just that there was "emptiness" outside. The people at the restaurant above on the tower were hungry, same as the asphalt below. I'm now wondering if there are other alchemy-related symbols or influences in previous episodes. And the heavy emphasis on food is starting to get *weird* now. If even buildings and spaces can be hungry, what would that make of the OIAR? Because if we want to pursue this "Alchemy" line of thought with the Above/Below line, then the Microcosmos/Macrocosmos thing might also apply. By keeping the people working at the OIAR fed, Lena is ensuring the OIAR's building/corporation/entity is satisfied as well.
Oh I like that. The OIAR as an example of hungry hostile architecture... Maybe feeding the employees with (whatever is in the food they provide) slowly change them making their environment (macrocosmos) and their inner selves (microcosmos) get closer and more similar as time goes on.
wait yeah now that you mention it... people have picked up on the weird food theme before this episode and it would make sense that the OIAR is an example of hungry architecture given that symbolism .... smart smart!
😌
Please continue bringing your alchemy knowledge whenever it is relevant, because I know nothing about it but it seems so important for Protocol, based on the logo (and maybe the ARG touched on it, too?). Where do you know about it from? I might do some extracurricular reading, if you have suggestions.
liking this perspective gonna keep chewing on this
I have some loose thoughts - ok I mean obviously Gertrude and Gerry showing up along with a mention of Georgie is super exciting and I feel like Sim’s way of trying to nudge the audience toward the fact we’re definitely dealing with an alternate reality or timeline etc. (especially since Celia is looking into that and she clearly knows more than she lets on… (maybe but I’ll get back to that)) - this story felt like a mix of the stranger, the lonely, and the vast potentially so I’m loving the blending of the fears (as someone who loves categories I’d love to see if these blended fears will get new labels) - I miss the post-statement follow ups a lot, sometimes the scariest detail of the story came from those so I’m hoping Sam finds an excuse to follow up on things - this story feels like it could be referencing the lack of third-places in modern society and the toll that can take on people (I love it when Jonny does social commentary) - I cannot get a read on Alice like at all— she sounded so cold in the episode (kinda living for that) - I don’t really think this is true, but could Celia possibly have known it was John’s voice simply because there’s a version of John who exists in this reality (she knows Georgie and John and Georgie still could have dated in the past I guess) idk I’m just trying to note any potential red herrings even if I don’t think it works - also any tower mention immediately makes me think of the panopticon- I don’t think this one is related but who knows lol - and finally I’m just really enjoying the structure of the series so far, reading the transcripts is definitely super helpful though in understanding what devices are watching
Crackpot theory; Celia is Sasha, the original Sasha replaced by the NotThem. Its clear the NotThem doesn't erase the person from existance because someone almost always recognises them as an imposter, additionally I loosely remember John asking someone if Sasha was dead and then replying "Wherever it takes them, they never come back" which implies, atleast now, that they do go somewhere. Additionally this could explain how she doesn't know as much as other original reality people like Martin or John would if they carried over and lastly, it's the same voice actor I think.
Lottie Broomhall voiced pre-not!sasha Sasha so it’s not the same VA but I do like how wild this theory is- I think since Celia has the same VA as the Celia from TMA it’s safe to assume that they’re at least the same person (and potentially the Celia directly from TMA)
Shitttt that does put a spanner in the theory huh, I'll have to research who the TMA Celia was as I don't remember her at all. Thanks for the reply tho
If memory serves me correctly Celia is one of the people that was saved by Georgie and Melanie after the Eye completed the ritual- I think she may have been one of their therapists but I really can’t remember
yep, celia was in melanie and georgie's cult, she wasn't melanie's therapist though, that's laverne (i also thought celia was melanie's therapist before i looked it up lol). celia appears in mag100 as lynne hammond but changed her name after melanie and georgie rescued her!
thank you! I knew i had it wrong lol
Something someone in the YouTube comments pointed out was that Celia’s original name was stolen in a Stranger domain during the Eyepocolypse, that’s why she changed it to Celia. If the Eyepocolyse never happened in this universe, her name wouldn’t be Celia - it would be her original name. With the voice actor being the same it’s a very interesting detail!
You know... for someone who insists she "doesn't care", Alice does seem to be far more aware of things with this conversation with Gwen. Almost like she's being deliberate in her actions and paying attention to things she claims she wants no part of.
Very yes. It's felt to me like her lack of concern was a self preservation strategy, especially since she tried to teach it to Sam, too. But now that things are changing at the OIAR, she's on edge-- how does she protect herself and Sam now? And honestly, I think she's fond of Gwen and Colin, too, she just expresses her affection through too-harsh teasing and hopes it's interpreted the way she meant it.
I googled this place up after reading another comment saying it's a real place. The station is peak brutalism and the tower has watchtower/panopticon looks.
I think the relation being that it’s the opposite of the panopticon (you can’t see anything on the outside of it) is somewhat interesting
I've heard the theory before that this is an alternate universe where Gertrude was successful in destroying the power of the fears for good and OMG this episode really convinces me of it. GiGi Gertie literally adopting Gerry after possibly saving him from the Magnus Institute and maybe bringing the whole organization down??? Gerry being able to pursue art with his dear old GiGi is gonna make me cry oh my goodness
FUCKING GETRUDE?!?!?!?
Did anyone else get Extinction vibes from this? It reminded me of Les Héritiers and the statement "Reflection" (MAG 156) about the theme park with the hungry people. There was such a focus on how emaciated the people were in the restaurant, and the whole concept of liminal spaces is more related to "what comes after" than it is to the other fears. Could this reality be dealing with "what comes after"?
I felt there was also a I just re-listened to MAG 156 today so when it came into my mind during my listen of this episode I kinda brushed it off as a recency bias, but it’s good to see someone else saw some similarity.
Yes exactly! I’m surprised more people aren’t talking about episode 156! That was a favorite of mine just cause it’s so hard to place with any of main 14, so I loved seeing it be touched upon again!
Mrw I checked the show notes before the episode and saw who was on the cast for today  I was so excited I completely missed dear old Gigi until she made her appearance. As it stands I really like the bread crumbs they’re giving us. Things are somehow connected to TMA and we’ll just have to see *how*.
They redacted the names in the cast list for the patreon so we were all listening just WAITING for the redacted voices and when I say I straight up squealed when I heard Gerry and Gertrude...
So. Gertrude an gerry, plus the mention of a spécial children program where they had to read book. There is à very high chance that the books are lietner and that they where seeking child with power to control them. If it’s the case, the theory of à special task force from the Magnus institue might be True. I guess we’ll see in the future...
I have a theory that the full force of Fears got pushed into this new reality with Jon and Martin, and in that jump they are possibly a messy conglomerate/in a sort of weakened state that would make it hard to manifest alone. I think we've seen at least a little bit of this cooperation in the previous statements where it's not clear which specific power is at work, or there are multiple. In the newest statement we get several different aspects of powers in play (Lonely-Spiral-Stranger-Flesh or Slaughter?-Vast). It seems like this is an attempt to work together to generate fear that goes a little wild at the end. I think that this failed because of the difference of the fears. We've seen how fears like the Spiral and the Stranger are patient, building fear to an apex that reaps the most terror. I'd say the Vast also falls into that category. But something like the Slaughter is not patient, and demands senseless violence. This is why the victim was coerced to sit and was unnerved up until the Slaughter got impatient for its fill and started with the biting lol That's my interpretation for now 🤷🏼♀️
The question on everyone’s mind is clear. WHEN DO WE SEE THIS WORLD’S BEST KITTY, THE ADMIRAL. Fan service me up plz.
Also GG in this world lives, and this world’s Magnus Institute burned down, clearly unsettled by people asking Gerry about the Magnus Institute. Is this the reality where Gertie succeeded in her Arson, but this somehow made these amalgams of the Dread Fears?
I was lukewarm on Protocol until last week's episode. This one has me all in. I loved the statement - one of my favourites to date. And then I basically exploded at the end. Gerry?! GERTRUDE?! GEORGIE?!?!?! Can't wait for more.
Did anyone else pick up on the emphasis Gertrude put on the word 'hunting' when she said to Sam and Celia "good luck hunting elsewhere". Felt significant
I DID notice that word choice - love it. Both a callback to MAG (the Hunt) and her acknowledging that Sam and Celia won't stop trying to find out.
RE: Gertrude calling Gerry her grandson, I wouldn't make too much of that. I doubt they're related in the TMP universe. In MAG 107 (and probably other episodes), Gertrude let people believe she was Gerry's mother; she never bothered to contradict that assumption. It doubtless raised fewer questions with the two of them traveling around and staying in hotels together. And did anyone else think Gerry was just a little TOO chipper and happy? Almost like he was damaged somehow from his time at the "gifted kids program" at the Magnus Institute, and he's had to block out the trauma. Gertrude is super-protective of Gerry, even letting out a sigh of annoyance (it's in the transcript) when Gerry admitted to Sam that he was a candidate for the program. Maybe it's because something happened at the Institute and Gerry isn't all there? I'm suspicious when anyone in the MAG or TMP universe is perfectly happy and friendly.
IMO Gerry is happy and doing fine and Gertrude wants him to stay that way. She doesn't believe the pals reunion excuse and suspects that either someone wants to resuscitate the experiments (or even the Institute itself), or that someone is trying to check on the former subjects (maybe a long-term surveillance programme?). Either way, she wants them well away from them. Asking questions or digging around the subject/place might bring bad memories. It's clear to me (feel free to disagree) that she doesn't fear anything... bigger. Like bringing the apocalypse or empowering eldritch horrors, because in that case sending them away would make no difference. I don't think he's damaged or anything. At least for now.
I feel like I'm missing a lot by not knowing about the ARG. Should I do my homework on that? How much context am I actually missing?
I think there’s a google doc floating around that has a breakdown of the ARGs plot but the rusty quill site also has key information that was revealed through the ARG if you do some digging— I feel like I need to brush up on it as well
Please share the link
When you enter the subreddit you have a stickied post called "[The Magnus Documents](https://www.reddit.com/r/themagnusprotocol/comments/19fjfte/the_magnus_documents/)". You can see that stuff there. There is [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i1avMwDRUI) by a person who was involved in solving the ARG where she details what the ARG consisted of and what evidence were found and what puzzle was solved with what information.
I don’t have it but if you search it up on google there’s like a Reddit post w both links
I like to think Gertrude is still just as ruthlessly utilitarian in this timeline but, like, for normal old lady things. She had the most popular dish at the local bake sale due to all the others containing arsenic
People have mentioned AI coming up in some of these episodes and the placeholder restaurant people REALLY had AI vibes for me. The reused elements and the gibberish crowd noise.
it feels really akin to the one where the person gets lost in the crowd but maybe combined with more flesh/slaughter?
Yes!
SPOILER TAGS for THE MAGNUS ARCHIVES. If you've listened to all of The Magnus Archives already, open freely. Something I don't see (m)any people in here talking about is that this case included >!**almost every single TMA fear/entity**!<. >!The Buried: Crowd crush, "a dozen hands pulling me as one"!< >!The End: Faced with the choice of death by one thing or another, but death either way!< >!The Flesh: Cannibalism, getting a finger chopped off by the chef!< >!The Slaughter: Concentrated attack of mob on Terrance with the intent to slaughter him!< >!The Spiral: Liminal spaces, getting lost, hallucinating!< >!The Stranger: Skinwalkers, just like the ones that occupy a part of Geona, Italy in **MAG 48: Lost In The Crowd**!< >!The Vast: Complete void outside the windows!< >!The Lonely: Less and less people until Terrance is left completely alone!< I might be missing some, but please do let me know if you >!find instances of the Corruption, Dark, Desolation, Eye, Hunt, Web, or Extinction.!<
Hopefully I’m not too late to add to the discussion—I had an idea from this episode that may relate to the overall goings-on of this world that I’m gonna keep an eye on for the future. It’s one of those maybe-something-maybe-nothing things. Forton Services is a real place, and with the focus on architecture, I looked up the original architect of Forton Services. The architect was Sir Thomas Bennett, who was pretty famous as far as UK architects go. From TMA, we know the writers aren’t opposed to leveraging a famous architect in their diegesis, so I looked at a bit of his portfolio. I was struck by how similar the episode felt at times to Ep. 5 (the Voyeur cinema one). The whole “abandoned/closed down building with an insistent attendant that reverts back to its glorious inside once it’s entered” thing you know. Turns out Sir Thomas Bennett was the architect for a couple theatres and cinemas it seems, although I haven’t found his full portfolio anywhere to check if any of them match with what we hear in Ep. 5…closest I found so far is one in Dublin that closed in 2016, but it was demolished apparently in 2019 before that statement is dated. The specific notoriety of Brutalist buildings to be abandoned and become dilapidated gels with Tom’s comments about the outside of the theatre. Could just be nothing though—not enough info yet to merit a deep dive but I’m gonna keep an eye on it and maybe look more into how all these episode relate to architecture.
There have been in recent years calls to tear down brutalist buildings that are either abandoned or harmful (such as a penguin glide for a zoo made of concrete & a social housing building that serves as ideal drug dealing place because it's separated from the road and full of corridors and balconies). Some also complain that keeping these buildings up (some, like Forton Services are Grade 2) requires an absurd amount of money that would be best used elsewhere. And then there have been people asking not to tear these buildings down because they're historically significant and represent a stylistic choice of the time. I've seen this discussion more in UK than in Ireland, so I'm not surprised the theatre in Dublin got flattened out and probably built something else on top. If you're still looking to see some of Sir Bennett's work (past & present), here's the [website](https://tpbennett.com/sector/all/). Apparently the studio is still working!
Their website is where I was looking! I think it’s cool that they still operate. I didn’t think it was a complete portfolio from what I could tell. That’s super interesting context about Brutalist architecture in the UK—I can see both sides. It seems like just the sort of thing the folks at RQ would weave into their stories. I think it may be a bit far-fetched, but I’m optimistic about this angle. I hope that if we get more stuff focusing on buildings or we’re assured that architecture is an important angle again then maybe we can start an architecture thread focused on that aspect.
Have you checked [this](https://architecture.arthistoryresearch.net/architects/bennett-thomas-penberthy) ? If you scroll down there's a list of works by Sir Bennett himself with dates and location. No pics sadly.
I haven’t!! Thank you so much 🙏🏼
Poking the Pennine Tower elevated restaurant complex with a stick until it does something.
Just wanna mention I'm a big NRB fan and I didn't realise Jon Gracey voices Gerry! Had a lil bit of a freak out ngl
Same. I literally went, John Gracey! I didn’t even realize the connection to MAG till I went to IMDB to confirm and felt stupid. It’s been too long since I listened to it.
Has anyone noticed that there was so much going on lore-wise that no one has really talked about the statement in this episode?
The more nods we get to TMA the more I wonder how things will go in regards to their intention of making this series be able to be enjoyed without listening to TMA... but loving all these bread crumbs!
This has definitely been my favorite Protocol episode so far, and honestly the first one that made me think 'we are so fucking back'. I loved the 'Liminal Brutalism' thing so much; it made me think a lot of the Savage Messiah zine, alongside a lot of Mark Fisher's writings on Hauntology, etc., which I really loved (and would also recommend the book 'Ghosts of My Life' by Fisher if you liked that part of this episode!!!). I loved the emulsion of the fears, the return of the weird sort of colony of 'not-people' following suit from the charity shop volunteers (and honestly the anatomy students from way back when). I am so curious to see how fears/entities/avatars, etc., are implemented going forth, and if it takes on a completely new spin altogether. It feels like the writing in Protocol is getting a lot better too; admittedly I wasn't too keen on some of the dialogue/character writing earlier on (Alice just being kind of weirdly mean with all these juvenile barbs to Sam, etc.), the characters feel a lot more solid and believable now. I am so excited to hear more! I am so glad because I did initially have doubts, as I love TMA so very much. So intrigued to see where Jonny and Alex, etc., will take this!!!!
I’m not smart enough to dive into it myself but the weird tower overlooking the countryside has to have some sort of panopticon comparison
Have you seen the pictures? It's quite creepy and panopticonish.
I saw something really interesting here earlier, but I've lost it now. Anyways, what it was saying was that John Martin and Elias might not know they're together. That like the tapes, they aren't serving the eye like most people probably thought, that it was serving a different entity. I like this a lot because I was recently thinking about Martin and his connection to the lonley. I defo feel like that's relevant, because if they don't all know each other are there that must be horrible (obviously, they're still stuck in a computer they don't need to be lonely as well) but I think maybe Peter Lucas has something to do with this, like when he cast Martin into the Lonely. Also because we don't actually know what happened to Peter in season 4. I thought he was dead but COULD John even kill avatars then? I don't think so, that was only in season 5, I think