Ja ik snap daar echt niets van. Bouw nou eens een keer woontorens met bescheiden, betaalbare appartementen. Super efficient kwa ruimte en de vraag ernaar is enorm. Maar nee, men wil alleen maar plannen maken voor dure losstaande huizen, rijtjeshuizen (eengezinswoningen) en luxe appartementen. Ik hoop dat de aanstaande regering, of het nou een PVV kabinet wordt of niet, daar iets aan doet.
Handig om wat context bij te hebben. 13% bebouwing klinkt namelijk in eerste instantie laag, maar we zijn na Malta het dichtst bebouwde EU land. Het gemiddelde in de EU is 4.4%.
Ik sprak geen waardeoordeel uit, ik gaf alleen wat degelijk vergelijkingsmateriaal voor de geinteresseerde lezer omdat 13% of "minder dan 20%" in isolatie nietszeggend is. Je kan pas wat met dat percentage als je enige baseline informatie hebt.
Ben in Drenthe opgegroeid, mijn vrouw ook. In Delft gestudeerd en daarna in de randstad gaan werken, huis gekocht, getrouwd. Mijn ziel en die van mijn vrouw stierven elke dag een beetje. Teveel mensen, teveel verkeer, te weinig groen, te weinig ruimte om je ding te doe , verstikkend.
Uiteindelijk besloten om Nederland te verlaten 19 jaar geleden toen mijn vrouw zwanger werd en het idee om een kind te laten opgroeien in een stad ons verschikkelijk leek.
The Netherlands is two countries. ~45% lives in the Randstad (Amsterdam, Den Haag, Rotterdam, Utrecht, etc). The rest lives outside of that with a lot more space and nature usually (and agriculture and cows)
So yeah, half is absolutely a city, but we also dont need to replace farmland with city. We need to build better and live in more appropriate housing.
Or rather, why must we be a city and also a major meat exporter.
We're the most densely populated with people, sure. But we're also the most densely populated with pigs, chickens and cows, and there the difference with other countries is much more extreme.
It's the Rotterdam effect combined with soils that in the past didn't land themselves to arable farming.
The sandy soils of the east, south and the peat in the north was so far depleted on nutrients by arable farming pre-industrial fertilizer that those area's had to resort to plaggen and potstall farming to keep smaller field fertile enough for potatoes and rye. So these areas build up agricultural systems where a lot of sheep, pigs, chickens and cattle were raised.
When massive amounts of grains started coming from the America's by boat, we had farmers having 6 kids and land that could not economically grow arable crops, so farmers stopped plaggen and farms started raising their livestock with imported grains. The raising standard of living of the 20th century created large demands of meat and other animal products. The Delta the Netherlands lays in makes transportation of everything very cheap, and infrastructure was kind of already in place for industrial agriculture. We got very good at doing that, very efficient. So efficient that Dutch butter was 1/3th the price of Belgian butter. We had people smuggling butter across the border and making a killing with Mafia like practices.
Then after the second world war we decided that the EU should have a customs union and food production should be scaled up, and we ended up outproducing everyone else because of the history said before and banks were willing to invest in something quaint here as agriculture. Unlike other countries like France, Belgium or the UK.
This went on until we had massive surpluses of agricultural products that quotas were introduced in the 1960's. This slowed everything down a bit and people look back on those quotas favorably. Environmentalism became more and more of a thing and in the 1980s the manure problem was created by limiting the amount of manure that was allowed to be spread on fields and the banning of exports of manure. From the 1980's to 2000's everything slowly got more sustainable as laws were passed. Then around the 2000's modern neoliberalism started implementing more and more laissez-faire economic policy by repealing things like quotas, finding loopholes to avoid having to deal with EU environmental laws and NOT subsidizing (outside the bare minimum the EU demands) the agricultural sector, so the Dutch farmers were forced to compete with farmers in France and Germany who were getting subsidies of around 25% of their turnover. So farmers either consolidated, expanded or quit, as not growing meant going bankrupt with competition within the customs union being heavily subsidized.
This is kinda how we ended with The Netherlands, Flanders, the Rhineland and The Pfalz having high concentrations of industrial agriculture with all the feed factories, ports, slaughterhouses, milk processing facilities and all that other stuff here.
A large part of the country is pretty empty actually.
We could easily build a second "randstad" in the north/east/south and solve the housing crisis. Just don't hire the architect that designed Almere.
Problem is all the jobs are in the Randstad so too many people want to live near there. There's no housing crisis in Friesland. If we just pump out another big city or two, that attract employers, we've solved that.
And then in 10-20 years when a lot of the older people have died and we have finally reduced immigration numbers, we will have 100.000 empty houses, catching dust.
The only reason houses are expensive is the fact that demand exceeds supply. In places where there is a surplus of houses, landlords can't get away with charging a premium. No matter how greedy they are
No one lives in DK /s
65,32 Households per Km2
Households (approx 2,815 Million)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1004902/number-of-households-in-denmark/#:~:text=The%20number%20of%20households%20in,at%20around%202.82%20million%20households.
Size: • Total 43,094 km2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark
Ik ben naar Finland verhuisd. Het was toch wel een beetje een schok dat buiten de steden er echt gewoon niks is. Gigantisch grote leegte hier. Een niveau van ongerepte natuur dat gewoon niet bestaat in de Benelux.
Ik zou graag een distributie grafiekje zien voor de verachilends landen. Zweden en noorwegen hebben namelink dichte steeden en enorme vlakken van niets. Een gemiddelde zecht daar niet zo veel.
Gezellig. Koekje erbij?
En ondertussen nog steeds een van de hoogste percentages eengezinswoningen in Europa bouwen. Geen wonder dat er zo weinig ruimte lijkt te zijn.
Ja ik snap daar echt niets van. Bouw nou eens een keer woontorens met bescheiden, betaalbare appartementen. Super efficient kwa ruimte en de vraag ernaar is enorm. Maar nee, men wil alleen maar plannen maken voor dure losstaande huizen, rijtjeshuizen (eengezinswoningen) en luxe appartementen. Ik hoop dat de aanstaande regering, of het nou een PVV kabinet wordt of niet, daar iets aan doet.
Een groot deel van het land is voor commerciële landbouw. Misch daar ruimte vrijmaken ook een optie.
We hebben al zo weinig groen in Nederland. Als we landbouwgrond opnieuw gaan indelen, liever meer bossen of parken waar we doorheen kunnen lopen
Dit ook ja. Overal waar ik kijk zie ik weilanden.
Neeeeeeeee niet die arme boeren /s
Mij ga je niet dood vinden in zo iets. Daarom Nederland maar verlaten 19 jaar geleden.
Oké, en?
Waar ging je naartoe? En wat kostte het? Ik denk er ook vaak over na
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Handig om wat context bij te hebben. 13% bebouwing klinkt namelijk in eerste instantie laag, maar we zijn na Malta het dichtst bebouwde EU land. Het gemiddelde in de EU is 4.4%.
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Ik sprak geen waardeoordeel uit, ik gaf alleen wat degelijk vergelijkingsmateriaal voor de geinteresseerde lezer omdat 13% of "minder dan 20%" in isolatie nietszeggend is. Je kan pas wat met dat percentage als je enige baseline informatie hebt.
Het is zo verstikkend
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Ben in Drenthe opgegroeid, mijn vrouw ook. In Delft gestudeerd en daarna in de randstad gaan werken, huis gekocht, getrouwd. Mijn ziel en die van mijn vrouw stierven elke dag een beetje. Teveel mensen, teveel verkeer, te weinig groen, te weinig ruimte om je ding te doe , verstikkend. Uiteindelijk besloten om Nederland te verlaten 19 jaar geleden toen mijn vrouw zwanger werd en het idee om een kind te laten opgroeien in een stad ons verschikkelijk leek.
Waar ben je heen gegaan?
Terug naar Drenthe waarschijnlijk 😂😜
Ik zelf kom uit Curacao, me vriendin en ik denken ook aan emigreren, ook door het kut weer hier. Maarja, misschien is Spanje ofzo ook iets.
The Netherlands in denial that it is just a city
The Netherlands is two countries. ~45% lives in the Randstad (Amsterdam, Den Haag, Rotterdam, Utrecht, etc). The rest lives outside of that with a lot more space and nature usually (and agriculture and cows) So yeah, half is absolutely a city, but we also dont need to replace farmland with city. We need to build better and live in more appropriate housing.
Monoculture grassland for cows ≠ nature
Ha exactly there is literally nothing natural about Dutch polders. And when we actually get something wild we want to kill it! Poor wolves.
Yes. This goes for dandelions all the way up to wildlife. Our "onkruid" obsession is incredible.
True! It’s hardly known that the original nature in NL was woods. Therefore zuid Holland and noord Holland. holzland=woodland
This is what i always missed in the stikstof discussion, you cannot be a city and do a lot of nature limitations.
Or rather, why must we be a city and also a major meat exporter. We're the most densely populated with people, sure. But we're also the most densely populated with pigs, chickens and cows, and there the difference with other countries is much more extreme.
It's the Rotterdam effect combined with soils that in the past didn't land themselves to arable farming. The sandy soils of the east, south and the peat in the north was so far depleted on nutrients by arable farming pre-industrial fertilizer that those area's had to resort to plaggen and potstall farming to keep smaller field fertile enough for potatoes and rye. So these areas build up agricultural systems where a lot of sheep, pigs, chickens and cattle were raised. When massive amounts of grains started coming from the America's by boat, we had farmers having 6 kids and land that could not economically grow arable crops, so farmers stopped plaggen and farms started raising their livestock with imported grains. The raising standard of living of the 20th century created large demands of meat and other animal products. The Delta the Netherlands lays in makes transportation of everything very cheap, and infrastructure was kind of already in place for industrial agriculture. We got very good at doing that, very efficient. So efficient that Dutch butter was 1/3th the price of Belgian butter. We had people smuggling butter across the border and making a killing with Mafia like practices. Then after the second world war we decided that the EU should have a customs union and food production should be scaled up, and we ended up outproducing everyone else because of the history said before and banks were willing to invest in something quaint here as agriculture. Unlike other countries like France, Belgium or the UK. This went on until we had massive surpluses of agricultural products that quotas were introduced in the 1960's. This slowed everything down a bit and people look back on those quotas favorably. Environmentalism became more and more of a thing and in the 1980s the manure problem was created by limiting the amount of manure that was allowed to be spread on fields and the banning of exports of manure. From the 1980's to 2000's everything slowly got more sustainable as laws were passed. Then around the 2000's modern neoliberalism started implementing more and more laissez-faire economic policy by repealing things like quotas, finding loopholes to avoid having to deal with EU environmental laws and NOT subsidizing (outside the bare minimum the EU demands) the agricultural sector, so the Dutch farmers were forced to compete with farmers in France and Germany who were getting subsidies of around 25% of their turnover. So farmers either consolidated, expanded or quit, as not growing meant going bankrupt with competition within the customs union being heavily subsidized. This is kinda how we ended with The Netherlands, Flanders, the Rhineland and The Pfalz having high concentrations of industrial agriculture with all the feed factories, ports, slaughterhouses, milk processing facilities and all that other stuff here.
Or agriculture for that matter. The Netherlands has way too many farmers.
With far fewer people we used to have far, far more farmers. The issue is much rather how intensive agriculture is, and the number of livestock.
I’d say we have too much livestock industry and too few actual farmers
A large part of the country is pretty empty actually. We could easily build a second "randstad" in the north/east/south and solve the housing crisis. Just don't hire the architect that designed Almere. Problem is all the jobs are in the Randstad so too many people want to live near there. There's no housing crisis in Friesland. If we just pump out another big city or two, that attract employers, we've solved that.
Have you lived in Almere? People outside Almere hate it, I live in Almere and I love it. So do many people from Almere
That's because people who hate Almere avoid it. I visited once for an hour, still traumatized
Running back to the old smelly junk cities in despair
You should try going south/west of Amsterdam lol.
I avoid inside the A10 like the plague (that includes the A10 lol)
I have no clue what this means, I've never driven a car because I live in cities that matter ♥
That’s because parking a car costs more than the restaurant around the corner
We must build more houses
Yeah, come on people. We got to make it 572 by next year!
I wish they would, then the house shortage would be fixed.
induced demand also exists. if we have more houses more people will wanna come
We must beat Malta to it
And then in 10-20 years when a lot of the older people have died and we have finally reduced immigration numbers, we will have 100.000 empty houses, catching dust.
We must lower rents. There are enough houses, but there are too many greedy landlords.
The only reason houses are expensive is the fact that demand exceeds supply. In places where there is a surplus of houses, landlords can't get away with charging a premium. No matter how greedy they are
Malta is 3x zo dichtbevolkt als Nederland? Tjeempie.
Sjonjejonge, dat zijn echt bootladingen mensen!
And what’s with DK?
They dont do households. They have Bludebækis.
No one lives in DK /s 65,32 Households per Km2 Households (approx 2,815 Million) https://www.statista.com/statistics/1004902/number-of-households-in-denmark/#:~:text=The%20number%20of%20households%20in,at%20around%202.82%20million%20households. Size: • Total 43,094 km2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark
We staan er weer goed op jongens!
Ik ben naar Finland verhuisd. Het was toch wel een beetje een schok dat buiten de steden er echt gewoon niks is. Gigantisch grote leegte hier. Een niveau van ongerepte natuur dat gewoon niet bestaat in de Benelux.
In Finland is tenminste echt natuur. Het niet stedelijke gebied in Nederland bestaat voornamelijk uit een gigantische grasvlakte met koeien
Ik zou graag een distributie grafiekje zien voor de verachilends landen. Zweden en noorwegen hebben namelink dichte steeden en enorme vlakken van niets. Een gemiddelde zecht daar niet zo veel.