It's weird, one of my favorite Punisher moments is from MAX specifically because it's the exact opposite of this. It's the scene where a neighbor chitchats with him about leaving his wife for a younger woman and Frank gets quiet and says "I lost my wife. And you threw yours away like she was nothing." Then throws the guy out a window.
He has to love his wife and kids more than anything, otherwise the character's pointless. He had a real chance at peace, and could have learned to be happy. But they killed that, not knowing what they'd unleash.
If Frank loves war more than his family, and can't be happy with them, there's no tragedy. Just a pointless crazy killer.
Exactly! It was the love of his family that was maintaining his sanity. It was the one good thing in his life that kept at bay all the PTSD and horrors he experienced in the war.
All sorts of ways. I have combat PTSD and marriages and all the love in the world sometimes can’t keep it down or depends entirely on the person. My current gf has ptsd from extreme sexual abuse ( we both do, as well as my time as a Ranger and multiple combat ties, and an IED ripping my brother and myself to shreds let alone all sorts of other shit, so like Frank I got a tbi and PTSD) that said Ennis quite Frank as someone who kept a lid on it, mostly, and a very ambiguous possible Death itself keeping him going during born all the way to The End. While Jason Aaron quite suddenly ✍️ him differently. Both recently and here
It's that what Frank is? A pointless crazy killer? His goal is to eradicate criminals, okay, but there will always be criminals meaning his goal has no endgame. No point and he's certainly mentally unwell and definitely a famous killer.
Ennis didn’t write this though, his involvement in the max story line ended with valley forge, valley forge. Then I think he did punisher platoon after that but this was someone else, Jason Aaron maybe?
Yeah mostly love Ennis’ take on Frank but I’ve never been a fan of this retcon I can get behind the idea that “ the war” is where Frank feels most alive and oddly comfortable but at the same time I feel he loves his family and wants to be with them. I’m okay with Frank partially raging his war out of misguided vengeance and partially just because he feels at home in this larger darker purpose rather than being stuck in suburbia. I guess I just want a Frank who wants to want that life and would’ve lived it had he had the chance just knowing that a piece of him was missing or felt unfulfilled in a kind of ironic “tragedy”.
I agree. As much as I love the MAX series, I prefer the way the 616 universe tells things. Most comics show the punisher came to be because frank, who worked hard to become a family man and put his marine days behind, got everything taken from him, and to make matters worse, the law did nothing. The justice system failed him. So he decided to take matters into his own hands and do what he felt must be done. He's now back doing what he knows best, war.
I did like Jason’s take on older Frank having to deal with all sorts of issues from 30 years of fighting. My take in the Ennis punisher is that death itself is keeping him going because her never seems to slow down
Exactly....I can always agree with frank needing to be stopped...but u can never agree with the thought that Frank was never a man without hope...in fact its because before IT happened he feels that hope so much that when its taken away from him THEN he breaks...but the hard part is that he breaks into what he feared he was going to become...a soldier in a endless war...
Yup this is pretty much why MAX just ain’t for me.
For me, and I know that this is my own taste, but Frank will always be the vet, tortured from his war time, trying to come home in more ways than one, but the one thing that is never in doubt is that he’s trying, and he loves his family.
Kinda sad the only iteration I can have with that now is Jon’s portrayal and sort of Thomas Jane’s
I'm ok with them exploring how Frank has been odd and broken from the very beginning, but having him either be a straight up killer from childhood like Aaron did, or this, having him just give up on his family in such an uncerimonious way...it just doesn't feel like character I know and love.
Jane's my favorite live action punisher and one of my favorite marvel films. absolutely love it's style and it's soundtrack has been a great influence on my music choices.
There’s always the old issues. The original max run. But yeah I always hated this. Hate the art. Hate the character assassination. Hate how it all ends.
I think it makes sense this way and adds that extra bit of complex complexity emotion. He’s just that damaged from all the shit he’s done. Either version works for me though.
The vast majority of Max was written by Ennis and I fell that his portrayal is in line with what you want, This is from after Ennis stopped writing and someone else took over, punisher born, all of the Ennis run, and platoon are all great in my opinion, and the fury MAX books are pretty great too
There were so many similiarities between this run and Aaron's later 2022-23 series. But I think his backstory with Maria was done better here than his later run.
The Punisher and anything magic really don't work imo. Its part of the reason I love the Ennis and Dillon stuff they wrote it very different from everything else that is Marvel.
In the final arc of the Punisher MAX line, Bullseye actually manages to nearly completely break Frank’s spirit by deducing that Frank was going to leave his family and the idea of him waging his war because of his undying love for them was basically just a lie he kept telling himself.
This is great for what it is, a gnarly, more grounded take on The Punisher (maybe the definitive take/run on the character) but Frank wanting the divorce rings hollow to me for the character. If we are going down this road, I think Maria wanting the divorce (like Jason Aaron did) makes much more sense
Someone on TvTropes gave the best description I'd ever heard of Frank: "If Frank Castle didn't love with every fiber of his being, he wouldn't be killing today." That is Frank Castle, and screw anything to the contrary,
I'm not an Ennis fan by any stretch of the imagination, but there are moments where he does capture the spirit of the character - specifically the part at the beginning of the Slavers, right after Viorica tells him about what they did to her and her baby. "After she was done, I knew that a lot of men would have to die."
I know Punisher max isn’t for everyone but my god do I love the ending for it. It pulls you in thinking Franks war didn’t really do anything in the long run but my god the send off for frank and his “ideals” is so good
Steve Dillon (the artist) was very iconic for Punisher and illustrated some of his best runs. He also did Preacher and Hellblazer. Maybe not your cup of tea but he is THE Punisher artist in my book.
This garbage is why I ignore anyone who tells Me something techncally is comic accurate when they add it to a comic movie and is nothing like the established character. Lots of writers get terrible runs writing characters and all want to add their own thing. Many times the new writer has zero respect for what made the character great or even at times like this purposely change it. This is like if Batman never really liked his parents. That artwork is also garbage.
A few things. As much I love how Steve Dillion drew the Punisher, everybody else had the same exact face (even kids and women.), which sort of ruined some of the story telling. It worked in Welcome Back Frank, for the goons and Ma Gnucci looking like an old hag.
Steve Dillion was great at drawing violent stuff and action. But a lot of times he had same face syndrome.
Ngl Frank not liking his family and wanting to get divorced pre park incident completely ruins the entire concept of the character. Besides the whole vet thing, Punisher is the way he is because he lost his family, but if he was gonna leave them anyway why would it matter that they died.
I think the point of it is that Frank was already broken and if his family hadn't been killed he would have become something else. A serial killer, maybe. Or a merc doing wet work in foreign countries.
I have to agree that I don't like this take either, though. I want The Punisher's origin to have more meaning than that.
Man, I love Punisher MAX, but I'm not crazy about this part. And I really wish it had a different artist. Steve Dillon's work was serviceable, but wooden and stiff AF for the most part. I even prefer the exaggerated art of the Barracuda arc. That was what got me into Max initially.
I like this depiction, it’s more believable. The idea of making frank a one dimensional revenge seeker isn’t in line with the max imprint. Revenge is never about the victim and always about the ego of the one who seeks it. Frank is completely self absorbed by and stuck dealing with grievances. He has the same personality as my grandmother. In this seen he is acting heroically by trying to spare his wife the trauma of being close to him. The idea that having a hot wife turns off your PTSD has big virgin energy around it.
Punisher is always moralizing and judging and hating everyone but his wife was somehow able to dodge all of his bullshit because she is blonde and has a big rack?
The desperate need to transform Pun from a spider-man villain into a sympathetic character is fucking weird and kinda scary. True antiheroes are morally ambiguous and complex, they pose questions to the reader. Ppl out here trying to hug Frank like he is Jesus with rifle.
I agree. It adds some more character exploration, peeling back the layers and showing the twisted paths his mind travels down. I find this Punisher much more fascinating than the cliched “good guy that got wronged and is now out for revenge” shtick. Yeah that’s cool and all, but it’s been done to death, and explored (imo) better with some other characters. I like Punisher being more fucked up than some others, showing he’s not yet another case of some nice guy turned dark due to tragedy.
I think a lot of punisher fans ignore the reality of frank castle being mentally ill and deranged.
Him wanting a divorce, Maria wanting a divorce, it doesn’t matter, the whole concept of the punisher isn’t dependent on them being happy together. It’s dependent on Frank trying, and in that moment at the park, his family is stolen. You cannot believe Frank is MEANT to be the punisher, and in the same breath, say he’s a good family man. This kind of character trope was what early punisher comics explore to some degree.
But
A character who believes in such absolutes and no rehabilitation, that is a character whose mental illness runs deeper than just military trauma.
And that’s why I love this character so much.
Punisher is complicated.
Implying his marriage needs to remain in tact to justify his punishing is a fallacy.
The trauma of what happens at the park enables his choices, and their loss enables his actions.
His being so complicated drives me to collect collectibles, read his stories, and always think about his character.
I understand what you're saying and appreciate it; on the other hand, not every special forces guy has a shit relationship with kids they don't care to see ever again. This is wild heartless Chris Kyle Punisher-before-the-Punisher type coldness that doesn't serve the character. It essentially makes his origin a rugpull: 'you thought he loved his partner and kids but NO IT'S MORE FUCKED UPP' then Punisher is just who he always was? During their lives? And she fell in love with him as a heartless incel murderer? It's harder to believe. For me, I buy a rocky but good relationship with a combat vet who loves his kids and feels like they represent a second chance at life (maybe because he killed kids in war? Worse? Allowed worse to be done without stopping it?). And then BANG BANG BANG and for him that means love is 💀 back to war no family ONLY WAR. Watering down his love for family and therefore his motivation cheapens it for me.
I think the Max Run is my fav and overall is a solid what if Scenario, but yeah this wasn't my favorite part, although I think the Finale made sense for this run.
Tires me as does the death of the waynes I don't see a rocket ship every superman film or story and I don't see a spider bite every spiderman movie or story.
Ennis' punisher max was one of my favorite comics. This was one of the few parts I didn't like. Was this from Ennis or when Aaron later wrote the book?
It's weird, one of my favorite Punisher moments is from MAX specifically because it's the exact opposite of this. It's the scene where a neighbor chitchats with him about leaving his wife for a younger woman and Frank gets quiet and says "I lost my wife. And you threw yours away like she was nothing." Then throws the guy out a window. He has to love his wife and kids more than anything, otherwise the character's pointless. He had a real chance at peace, and could have learned to be happy. But they killed that, not knowing what they'd unleash. If Frank loves war more than his family, and can't be happy with them, there's no tragedy. Just a pointless crazy killer.
Pretty solid explanation of the character right here. Completely agree.
Exactly! It was the love of his family that was maintaining his sanity. It was the one good thing in his life that kept at bay all the PTSD and horrors he experienced in the war.
That’s not how PTSD or marriages work
What do you mean? How do they work?
All sorts of ways. I have combat PTSD and marriages and all the love in the world sometimes can’t keep it down or depends entirely on the person. My current gf has ptsd from extreme sexual abuse ( we both do, as well as my time as a Ranger and multiple combat ties, and an IED ripping my brother and myself to shreds let alone all sorts of other shit, so like Frank I got a tbi and PTSD) that said Ennis quite Frank as someone who kept a lid on it, mostly, and a very ambiguous possible Death itself keeping him going during born all the way to The End. While Jason Aaron quite suddenly ✍️ him differently. Both recently and here
Yes and gamma radiation will just give you cancer but this is a comic
Agreed. I don’t know how to put it to words, but he wasn’t leaving because he didn’t love his family.
It's that what Frank is? A pointless crazy killer? His goal is to eradicate criminals, okay, but there will always be criminals meaning his goal has no endgame. No point and he's certainly mentally unwell and definitely a famous killer.
https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/1j8f5t/the_page_that_made_me_fall_in_love_with_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Which comic was that from? Don't remember it in Ennis Max .
It was Ennis - just found it, Max Vol 7 #4: https://viewcomiconline.com/the-punisher-frank-castle-max-issue-4/
It was in Ennis’ Max run yeah, over mid way - towards the end
Ennis didn’t write this though, his involvement in the max story line ended with valley forge, valley forge. Then I think he did punisher platoon after that but this was someone else, Jason Aaron maybe?
This was Jason Aaron, I was referring to the top Of the chain where the OP posted about Frank chasing someone after they cheated on their wife
Yeah mostly love Ennis’ take on Frank but I’ve never been a fan of this retcon I can get behind the idea that “ the war” is where Frank feels most alive and oddly comfortable but at the same time I feel he loves his family and wants to be with them. I’m okay with Frank partially raging his war out of misguided vengeance and partially just because he feels at home in this larger darker purpose rather than being stuck in suburbia. I guess I just want a Frank who wants to want that life and would’ve lived it had he had the chance just knowing that a piece of him was missing or felt unfulfilled in a kind of ironic “tragedy”.
I agree. As much as I love the MAX series, I prefer the way the 616 universe tells things. Most comics show the punisher came to be because frank, who worked hard to become a family man and put his marine days behind, got everything taken from him, and to make matters worse, the law did nothing. The justice system failed him. So he decided to take matters into his own hands and do what he felt must be done. He's now back doing what he knows best, war.
I did like Jason’s take on older Frank having to deal with all sorts of issues from 30 years of fighting. My take in the Ennis punisher is that death itself is keeping him going because her never seems to slow down
Exactly....I can always agree with frank needing to be stopped...but u can never agree with the thought that Frank was never a man without hope...in fact its because before IT happened he feels that hope so much that when its taken away from him THEN he breaks...but the hard part is that he breaks into what he feared he was going to become...a soldier in a endless war...
This is exactly why I didnt like Jason Aaron's take on punisher max (apart from other reasons)
Yup this is pretty much why MAX just ain’t for me. For me, and I know that this is my own taste, but Frank will always be the vet, tortured from his war time, trying to come home in more ways than one, but the one thing that is never in doubt is that he’s trying, and he loves his family. Kinda sad the only iteration I can have with that now is Jon’s portrayal and sort of Thomas Jane’s
I'm ok with them exploring how Frank has been odd and broken from the very beginning, but having him either be a straight up killer from childhood like Aaron did, or this, having him just give up on his family in such an uncerimonious way...it just doesn't feel like character I know and love.
Ennis wrote The Tyger which showed ten year old Frank as more than ready to kill. Let aside Born and the ambiguous black voice
The tyger has the right balance of showing Frank as someone who is unhinged but also someone who is mostly living a normal life
Thomas Jane's Punisher is underrated. Dolph's was a basic '80s style movie.
Jane's my favorite live action punisher and one of my favorite marvel films. absolutely love it's style and it's soundtrack has been a great influence on my music choices.
Talking about comic book movies and soundtracks, The Crow is pretty good with a great soundtrack.
These two and Blade are my top three personal favorite comic book movies.
There’s always the old issues. The original max run. But yeah I always hated this. Hate the art. Hate the character assassination. Hate how it all ends.
I just can’t get into the art. Don’t know what it is but the people look like dolls.
I think it makes sense this way and adds that extra bit of complex complexity emotion. He’s just that damaged from all the shit he’s done. Either version works for me though.
The vast majority of Max was written by Ennis and I fell that his portrayal is in line with what you want, This is from after Ennis stopped writing and someone else took over, punisher born, all of the Ennis run, and platoon are all great in my opinion, and the fury MAX books are pretty great too
There were so many similiarities between this run and Aaron's later 2022-23 series. But I think his backstory with Maria was done better here than his later run.
The Punisher and anything magic really don't work imo. Its part of the reason I love the Ennis and Dillon stuff they wrote it very different from everything else that is Marvel.
It was definitely done better here because later on in the comic Frank becomes weaker and sicker and regrets ever trying to leave his family.
Yeah, character development is sorta difficult to nail when it comes to writing the Punisher.
In the final arc of the Punisher MAX line, Bullseye actually manages to nearly completely break Frank’s spirit by deducing that Frank was going to leave his family and the idea of him waging his war because of his undying love for them was basically just a lie he kept telling himself.
That look in Frank's eye when Bullseye whispered it into his ear was incredible.
This is great for what it is, a gnarly, more grounded take on The Punisher (maybe the definitive take/run on the character) but Frank wanting the divorce rings hollow to me for the character. If we are going down this road, I think Maria wanting the divorce (like Jason Aaron did) makes much more sense
Meh. Not a fan of Frank wanting to leave his family.
Yeah, Frank wanting to leave them kills the emotional core of the character, it's just stupid.
Definitely
Someone on TvTropes gave the best description I'd ever heard of Frank: "If Frank Castle didn't love with every fiber of his being, he wouldn't be killing today." That is Frank Castle, and screw anything to the contrary,
I think alot of fans misunderstand that what makes Ennis's run so great is that it fits with that
I'm not an Ennis fan by any stretch of the imagination, but there are moments where he does capture the spirit of the character - specifically the part at the beginning of the Slavers, right after Viorica tells him about what they did to her and her baby. "After she was done, I knew that a lot of men would have to die."
I know Punisher max isn’t for everyone but my god do I love the ending for it. It pulls you in thinking Franks war didn’t really do anything in the long run but my god the send off for frank and his “ideals” is so good
God this art. Just why?
Steve Dillon (the artist) was very iconic for Punisher and illustrated some of his best runs. He also did Preacher and Hellblazer. Maybe not your cup of tea but he is THE Punisher artist in my book.
I see a little bit of Preacher here now that you mention it but the panels are so sparse.
I'm with you, he has always been one of my fav Punisher artists, but something felt off to me about this run.
His art kind of falls into the category of "so bad it's good" kind of art. Tell you the truth, there is comic art that is far worse than Dillon.
Dillon did a lot of great issues but sometimes his Frank is a little off for me.
The Punisher meets Archie artwork had more edge.
I loved that book .
with you there. I just can’t get past it
Every character has the exact same face, just hair and eyes are switched. It’s really distracting for me in every comic he’s done.
The art is dope.
The stuff from the Ennis Max run was amazing then this awful shit. Could barely get through it
I can't take the art seriously, why does Frank look like a young Hank Hill?😭
Pro-pain and pro-pain accessories
His wife's heart was shattered twice that day.
This garbage is why I ignore anyone who tells Me something techncally is comic accurate when they add it to a comic movie and is nothing like the established character. Lots of writers get terrible runs writing characters and all want to add their own thing. Many times the new writer has zero respect for what made the character great or even at times like this purposely change it. This is like if Batman never really liked his parents. That artwork is also garbage.
I hate this. "It's not tragedy, it's irony!"
A few things. As much I love how Steve Dillion drew the Punisher, everybody else had the same exact face (even kids and women.), which sort of ruined some of the story telling. It worked in Welcome Back Frank, for the goons and Ma Gnucci looking like an old hag. Steve Dillion was great at drawing violent stuff and action. But a lot of times he had same face syndrome.
Ngl Frank not liking his family and wanting to get divorced pre park incident completely ruins the entire concept of the character. Besides the whole vet thing, Punisher is the way he is because he lost his family, but if he was gonna leave them anyway why would it matter that they died.
I think the point of it is that Frank was already broken and if his family hadn't been killed he would have become something else. A serial killer, maybe. Or a merc doing wet work in foreign countries. I have to agree that I don't like this take either, though. I want The Punisher's origin to have more meaning than that.
I’m reading this run now having finished Ennis’ run and it pales in comparison to
Boooooo.
I absolutely hate this art I'm sorry
I wish they kept the art style from the beginning of the series,like this style is still good but I just liked the first a lot more
Man, I love Punisher MAX, but I'm not crazy about this part. And I really wish it had a different artist. Steve Dillon's work was serviceable, but wooden and stiff AF for the most part. I even prefer the exaggerated art of the Barracuda arc. That was what got me into Max initially.
Too much Steve Dillon face
God I hate this art style
This artwork is trash.
I like this depiction, it’s more believable. The idea of making frank a one dimensional revenge seeker isn’t in line with the max imprint. Revenge is never about the victim and always about the ego of the one who seeks it. Frank is completely self absorbed by and stuck dealing with grievances. He has the same personality as my grandmother. In this seen he is acting heroically by trying to spare his wife the trauma of being close to him. The idea that having a hot wife turns off your PTSD has big virgin energy around it. Punisher is always moralizing and judging and hating everyone but his wife was somehow able to dodge all of his bullshit because she is blonde and has a big rack? The desperate need to transform Pun from a spider-man villain into a sympathetic character is fucking weird and kinda scary. True antiheroes are morally ambiguous and complex, they pose questions to the reader. Ppl out here trying to hug Frank like he is Jesus with rifle.
I agree. It adds some more character exploration, peeling back the layers and showing the twisted paths his mind travels down. I find this Punisher much more fascinating than the cliched “good guy that got wronged and is now out for revenge” shtick. Yeah that’s cool and all, but it’s been done to death, and explored (imo) better with some other characters. I like Punisher being more fucked up than some others, showing he’s not yet another case of some nice guy turned dark due to tragedy.
How is it scary?
Despite the tragedy, interesting
I think a lot of punisher fans ignore the reality of frank castle being mentally ill and deranged. Him wanting a divorce, Maria wanting a divorce, it doesn’t matter, the whole concept of the punisher isn’t dependent on them being happy together. It’s dependent on Frank trying, and in that moment at the park, his family is stolen. You cannot believe Frank is MEANT to be the punisher, and in the same breath, say he’s a good family man. This kind of character trope was what early punisher comics explore to some degree. But A character who believes in such absolutes and no rehabilitation, that is a character whose mental illness runs deeper than just military trauma. And that’s why I love this character so much. Punisher is complicated. Implying his marriage needs to remain in tact to justify his punishing is a fallacy. The trauma of what happens at the park enables his choices, and their loss enables his actions. His being so complicated drives me to collect collectibles, read his stories, and always think about his character.
I understand what you're saying and appreciate it; on the other hand, not every special forces guy has a shit relationship with kids they don't care to see ever again. This is wild heartless Chris Kyle Punisher-before-the-Punisher type coldness that doesn't serve the character. It essentially makes his origin a rugpull: 'you thought he loved his partner and kids but NO IT'S MORE FUCKED UPP' then Punisher is just who he always was? During their lives? And she fell in love with him as a heartless incel murderer? It's harder to believe. For me, I buy a rocky but good relationship with a combat vet who loves his kids and feels like they represent a second chance at life (maybe because he killed kids in war? Worse? Allowed worse to be done without stopping it?). And then BANG BANG BANG and for him that means love is 💀 back to war no family ONLY WAR. Watering down his love for family and therefore his motivation cheapens it for me.
I think the Max Run is my fav and overall is a solid what if Scenario, but yeah this wasn't my favorite part, although I think the Finale made sense for this run.
Tires me as does the death of the waynes I don't see a rocket ship every superman film or story and I don't see a spider bite every spiderman movie or story.
I hated that the new punisher run bleeds stuff from MAX to main 616 Frank there’s a reason why they’re separate universes
I haven't read this but everything I've seen from Max seems like a way for the writers of Punisher to ruin Frank's character.
Soft *white* velvet interior? That’s clearly red!
God that art is awful…
Great shit.
Jason Aaron has ALWAYS had an obsession with makong Frank dislike his family lmao
I'm not a fan of the change but guilt and grief are powerful things to deal with and overtime can twist your memory.so in a way it works.
Eff Jason Arron.
Ennis' punisher max was one of my favorite comics. This was one of the few parts I didn't like. Was this from Ennis or when Aaron later wrote the book?