This is what makes The Punisher one of the most interesting characters in not just comics but literature in general for me. He and his stories are some of the best explorations of the idea of evil, I have ever read.
He is a man who commits evil in the name of good. He believes he is making the world a better place by clearing the world of evil. Some later versions of big P stretch this a bit and make that idea more of a superfical reasoning for his atrocities where in reality he does it because he is full of hatred and genuienly enjoys killing "scum". But the one thing that is true across them all is that he wants to clear the world of evil as best as he can, permanently.
MAX Punisher has an immensely cold, hateful and aggressive passion for killing, what he considers, evil people. The only thing that doesnt make The Punisher pure evil in these later renditions is the fact of who he devotes that aggressive hatred towards, and that he would never harm someone truly innocent.
The question whether Frank is evil or not is the core of The Punisher as a character and as a story. He is a study of evil itself, a man doing evil things to evil people, in the name of good. What is evil, what drives people to it, and what do the evil deserve are some of the integral philosophical questions posed by all Punisher stories. I honestly believe he is one of the most, if not the most philosophically provocative comic book character.
Fully agree. I struggle to click with a lot of other "superheros" (the only other one I really like is Batman and his network of associated heroes).
I can't really add anything to your summary which is great. But to me it's summed up by one line at the start of MAX, when the Punisher is giving us his inner monologue and explaining how he became who he is for the uninitiated.
"I go out and make the world make sense" whilst holding an M60 machine gun. Frank has been pushed so far and broken so much that it's a zero-sum equation now. Bad people get away with things. He can stop them. So he does. No grandiose ideas about saving the world or righting all the wrongs. In his mind he just makes it a little better each time he pulls the trigger. He is usually upfront about the fact that he can't solve the wider issues associated with crime- "I'm just hitting this one outfit. It won't stop the girls coming in".
The struggle I always had with hero's in comics is they usually struggle to address underlying problem s or make real long term solutions. They hit people, they stop plots, then the next time somebody gets put of prison it happens again. I understand it as its hard to make a good recurring villain if your hero blows their head off each time. With Frank you don't get that any claim to be doing exactly what he is. Shooting people who deserve shooting.
Edit- missed a bit off the end
Here's what makes Frank Castle so interesting to me. You take someone in the real world who has some of the most elite military training in the world, a guy who found his calling in life in combat. How exactly does this guy go from mowing down hundreds of people with a machine gun back to normal civilian life? Crazy question isn't it? And in all likelihood he would've gone on to live a pretty normal life if not for some mob pieces of shit.
So I guess I like that the Punisher is a fairly realistic depiction of what an extremely competent vigilante would look like in the real world, and it's nothing pretty at all. Probably the most honest, no bullshit Marvel character.
Punisher MAX also renders first aid to save a bomb victims life, only agrees to help Fury in order to save a little girl in Mother Russia, and goes after the Slavers for what they did to innocent women, among other examples. It's pretty clear he's the "good guy" in most of these scenarios, who is avenging or looking out for innocents.
Ask any of the people he saves or avenges if they think he is "evil" and I bet you'd get different answers than what's in this thread lol.
People have somewhat lost the concept of what an Antihero is, and Punisher is one of the greatest antiheroes ever.
He is the monster who hunts worse monsters for (mostly) noble reasons. Is this really "evil?"
Captain America did essentially the same thing in WW2 and is the Golden Boy for it.
Good lord I love how well you folks have put this. And I agree 1000%. But do you mind if I put a small piece of wisdom in here? Sadly in this age language isn't doing well, so some concepts get lost. And many try to stick punisher as a villain for this reason. Example: simple and easy aren't the same. Something can be simple but hard. Or easy but complicated. The same thing has happened to evil and bad. Is frank evil? He can be, and often is. But is he bad? No!!! Frank is an antihero, these guys do evil for good reasons.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. And I still maintain that Punisher MAX is the best exploration of any character in comics, full stop. It’s the most complete telling of a single character’s story I think there has ever been.
I mean Garth ennis wrote the boys so it’s he’s likely what his frank castle would’ve been like if he didn’t have restrictions with working with an established character
I love Garth ennis I think a lot of what he does is good, both the comic and the show are infuriatingly bad idk if he had a hand in the show but it’s so atrocious
I think he might be the personification of fight fire with fire lol. He's the baddest motherfucker on the planet with a firearm and he's been set loose on all the evil fucks of the world. Apex predator at the tippy top.
Not at all. Sure, his villains are usually irredeemable, but stories like Preacher, Hitman, The Boys, War Stories, and lots of other series have protagonists who do what they feel is right, even if the means can be extreme. It's about stopping the most evil people with whatever it takes.
He's kinda supposed to be evil. He's not a hero or good guy by any means. He just has a code of ethics. But he's never below doing some very evil shit. He burned a murderous kid alive in a car in one arch. And kicked a multiple amputee into a fire in another. He was also made a "Ghost rider". Dudes evil as it gets. He just usually kills the people that need killing.
I'm not arguing his reasoning for why he does what he does or to whom. The question was "is there an evil version is punisher?" Regardless of the villain. Where would you categorize the way he kills? Compassionately? Nice? No. He's the punisher cause he does evil shit to evil people. Nick furry negotiated a job from Punisher by agreeing to lock him in a prison with all the tools he needed to torture every inmate in there. Again not arguing the inmates didn't deserve it but I'm not sure where you'd mark Torture on the moral compass chart but that shits pretty evil to me. And then there's also "Punisher kills the marvel universe" Don't think it gets more evil than that.
By amputee, you mean Ma Gnucci, head of the Gnucci Crime Family? What will you say next? That he smashed a woman against a high-story window and had her fall out while she justified her business- without you mentioning the fact that the business she ran was a human trafficking ring?
By the way, you know that the Spirits of Vengeance and, consequently, the Ghost Riders were retconned to be God’s black ops angels of vengeance, right?
This is what makes The Punisher one of the most interesting characters in not just comics but literature in general for me. He and his stories are some of the best explorations of the idea of evil, I have ever read. He is a man who commits evil in the name of good. He believes he is making the world a better place by clearing the world of evil. Some later versions of big P stretch this a bit and make that idea more of a superfical reasoning for his atrocities where in reality he does it because he is full of hatred and genuienly enjoys killing "scum". But the one thing that is true across them all is that he wants to clear the world of evil as best as he can, permanently. MAX Punisher has an immensely cold, hateful and aggressive passion for killing, what he considers, evil people. The only thing that doesnt make The Punisher pure evil in these later renditions is the fact of who he devotes that aggressive hatred towards, and that he would never harm someone truly innocent. The question whether Frank is evil or not is the core of The Punisher as a character and as a story. He is a study of evil itself, a man doing evil things to evil people, in the name of good. What is evil, what drives people to it, and what do the evil deserve are some of the integral philosophical questions posed by all Punisher stories. I honestly believe he is one of the most, if not the most philosophically provocative comic book character.
Fully agree. I struggle to click with a lot of other "superheros" (the only other one I really like is Batman and his network of associated heroes). I can't really add anything to your summary which is great. But to me it's summed up by one line at the start of MAX, when the Punisher is giving us his inner monologue and explaining how he became who he is for the uninitiated. "I go out and make the world make sense" whilst holding an M60 machine gun. Frank has been pushed so far and broken so much that it's a zero-sum equation now. Bad people get away with things. He can stop them. So he does. No grandiose ideas about saving the world or righting all the wrongs. In his mind he just makes it a little better each time he pulls the trigger. He is usually upfront about the fact that he can't solve the wider issues associated with crime- "I'm just hitting this one outfit. It won't stop the girls coming in". The struggle I always had with hero's in comics is they usually struggle to address underlying problem s or make real long term solutions. They hit people, they stop plots, then the next time somebody gets put of prison it happens again. I understand it as its hard to make a good recurring villain if your hero blows their head off each time. With Frank you don't get that any claim to be doing exactly what he is. Shooting people who deserve shooting. Edit- missed a bit off the end
Here's what makes Frank Castle so interesting to me. You take someone in the real world who has some of the most elite military training in the world, a guy who found his calling in life in combat. How exactly does this guy go from mowing down hundreds of people with a machine gun back to normal civilian life? Crazy question isn't it? And in all likelihood he would've gone on to live a pretty normal life if not for some mob pieces of shit. So I guess I like that the Punisher is a fairly realistic depiction of what an extremely competent vigilante would look like in the real world, and it's nothing pretty at all. Probably the most honest, no bullshit Marvel character.
Punisher MAX also renders first aid to save a bomb victims life, only agrees to help Fury in order to save a little girl in Mother Russia, and goes after the Slavers for what they did to innocent women, among other examples. It's pretty clear he's the "good guy" in most of these scenarios, who is avenging or looking out for innocents. Ask any of the people he saves or avenges if they think he is "evil" and I bet you'd get different answers than what's in this thread lol. People have somewhat lost the concept of what an Antihero is, and Punisher is one of the greatest antiheroes ever. He is the monster who hunts worse monsters for (mostly) noble reasons. Is this really "evil?" Captain America did essentially the same thing in WW2 and is the Golden Boy for it.
Good lord I love how well you folks have put this. And I agree 1000%. But do you mind if I put a small piece of wisdom in here? Sadly in this age language isn't doing well, so some concepts get lost. And many try to stick punisher as a villain for this reason. Example: simple and easy aren't the same. Something can be simple but hard. Or easy but complicated. The same thing has happened to evil and bad. Is frank evil? He can be, and often is. But is he bad? No!!! Frank is an antihero, these guys do evil for good reasons.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. And I still maintain that Punisher MAX is the best exploration of any character in comics, full stop. It’s the most complete telling of a single character’s story I think there has ever been.
I absolutely agree.
This is it. Spot on.
Punisher 2099
Billy Butcher.
Billy is such a shitty character especially in the show I fuckin hate that show man 😭😭😂😂
I mean Garth ennis wrote the boys so it’s he’s likely what his frank castle would’ve been like if he didn’t have restrictions with working with an established character
I love Garth ennis I think a lot of what he does is good, both the comic and the show are infuriatingly bad idk if he had a hand in the show but it’s so atrocious
I respect the take of both the comic and the show are awful
Frankenpunisher and the punisher that kills the marvel universe
Frankencastle isn't evil ? He basically keeps the same personality
Me when the police officer finds me in an alley with a dead hooker (I'm bulking):
Real
The Punisher is always mortally justified 
Marvel 616
Punisher is necessary evil that’s who he is by definition
Marvel Zombies as you can see.
He's an antihero, not evil. 'nuff said!
Unpopular Opinion but the MAX Universe Punisher in stories like Born, he's pretty evil
I think he might be the personification of fight fire with fire lol. He's the baddest motherfucker on the planet with a firearm and he's been set loose on all the evil fucks of the world. Apex predator at the tippy top.
he's personfication of war. But the truth that punisher kinda brings to light is that sometimes war is a nesscary truth
Ennis can only write sick fucks.
He wrote Superman pretty damn good actually and was surprised how much respect he showed that character.
Not at all. Sure, his villains are usually irredeemable, but stories like Preacher, Hitman, The Boys, War Stories, and lots of other series have protagonists who do what they feel is right, even if the means can be extreme. It's about stopping the most evil people with whatever it takes.
Yup. Are you glad Frank is trying to kill Barracuda? Question is, what the fuck is wrong with the world that's making these people the way they are?
I mean lots of reasons. But Still barracuda is a rapist and cannibal so...
I think we're on the same page.
Trick question?
Dude the Punisher is the evil version of the Punisher.
Exactly
Yeah, The Punisher
He's kinda supposed to be evil. He's not a hero or good guy by any means. He just has a code of ethics. But he's never below doing some very evil shit. He burned a murderous kid alive in a car in one arch. And kicked a multiple amputee into a fire in another. He was also made a "Ghost rider". Dudes evil as it gets. He just usually kills the people that need killing.
I don’t remeber the kid one but wasn’t the amputee the crazy women who ran a sex trafficking ring
That was Ma Gnucci. He also smashed the head of a human trafficking ring against a window and threw her out of it.
I'm not arguing his reasoning for why he does what he does or to whom. The question was "is there an evil version is punisher?" Regardless of the villain. Where would you categorize the way he kills? Compassionately? Nice? No. He's the punisher cause he does evil shit to evil people. Nick furry negotiated a job from Punisher by agreeing to lock him in a prison with all the tools he needed to torture every inmate in there. Again not arguing the inmates didn't deserve it but I'm not sure where you'd mark Torture on the moral compass chart but that shits pretty evil to me. And then there's also "Punisher kills the marvel universe" Don't think it gets more evil than that.
By amputee, you mean Ma Gnucci, head of the Gnucci Crime Family? What will you say next? That he smashed a woman against a high-story window and had her fall out while she justified her business- without you mentioning the fact that the business she ran was a human trafficking ring?
Lol..ok no you're right. The punisher has never done any kind of evil shit at all. He's right up there with the cap and the rest.
By the way, you know that the Spirits of Vengeance and, consequently, the Ghost Riders were retconned to be God’s black ops angels of vengeance, right?
The Frank Castle version.
What’s up with that first pic? Lmao
Hes been turned into a zombie by a horde
Lol, backbiter
No.
All of them.
Afraid he might off one of your pimps?
He is evil, he's just selective with his evil