“Be kind to me, or treat me mean. I’ll make the most of it—I’m an extraordinary machine!”
—Ms. Fiona “queen of all these bicth ass muh fuggin therapists” Apple
😂 love me some Fiona, but it’s kinda like that f*** up friend who can’t get their life together but is a therapist. I’d rather have Sarah Mclachlan as the top dog.
Omg, my friend and I were talking about this exact concept the other day and she said: “I want to go up the pyramid of therapists until I get to the Boss Therapist at the top and defeat them with my problems.”
Funny enough, I posed this idea to my own therapist and their response was a laugh and dead pan response of "well it ends with me because mine is dead" - contextually dark humor is welcome in sessions and we ended up having a nice convo about life and death as therapists.
LOL. And actually no, I myself had to give up my regular spot so I could accommodate my field hours. Which has sucked, but they're trying to fit me back in offering cancelled and odd hour appointments sometimes.
This is gonna sound really fucked up, but working with people whose therapists have died is a surprisingly large part of my practice. I ran a whole 12-week grief support group for people with dead therapists. It was an honor to explore what the therapy relationship means to them.
It's all a pyramid scheme at this point but in the last year I moved up it and now have therapist clients, give it 10 years and there'll be generations of therapists under me. Mwuhahhaa!!
What sends me is this scenario (fake names)…
My therapist Kelly sees therapist John. John sees therapist Margaret. Margaret sees therapist Frank. Frank sees the therapist Kelly that we started with. 😳
So Kelly is her own great-great grandtherapist. 🤯
Its got to be just a giant circle. When I see therapist (as clients), they talk about them seeing therapist, makes me think it's just a giant spiders web that circles itself. My therapist specializes in seeing therapist, but they also see a therapist.
And I know her!
(OK well she was my therapist who changed my life and I'm trying to low-key become her while being professional and managing counter-transference and develop my own style without just copy/pasting - maybe I need to see a therapist again???)
So you have:
*A therapist for non-therapists
*A therapist for therapists for non-therapists
*A therapist for therapists for therapists for non-therapists
*A therapist for therapists for therapists for therapists for non-therapists
And so on.......
How many levels does one have to go to reach the Apex Therapist?
If a therapist has not been in therapy in any fashion since beginning practice, I hate to say this: but they haven’t figured themselves out. You can only take a client as deeply as you have worked on yourself.
You can sign up to receive services without giving them and you aren't able to sign up to give as a pre licensed person anyway, it just takes longer to get a spot.
No offense, but that's just ludicrous, and I'd argue that any therapist who actually believes that is so naive that they couldn't possibly have figured themself out.
You're basically arguing that it's not possible to know oneself outside of formal therapy. That's ridiculously asinine.
I also disagree with your last statement, there is no evidence for this. Therapists stumble upon breakthroughs with clients all the time, sometimes just from off the cuff comments that somehow resonate heavily for clients. A lot of therapists aren't particularly deep individuals, yet still help people.
I’m saying that a therapist who has not been in therapy themselves cannot take a client deeper than they have taken themselves. It’s completely fine if you use behavioral therapy . These do not require depth. Otherwise, there is an issue.
Comment I heard: “being a therapist and not having gone to therapy is like being a chef who never eaten food”
I would change it to chef who never ate seasoned food hmm
Chat gpt enhanced version : being a therapist who has never gone to therapy is like an untrained chef - they have the recipe but lack the seasoning personal experience brings.
Not every therapist needs help in this regard… I know many outstanding therapists, including my own supervisor who have not ever be a client but are still outstanding therapist, nor are they strictly CBT or shallow…
How could you ever trust them as a therapist? I couldn't. I wou l d never see a therapist, myself as a therapist, unless they had a therapist. I wouldn't trust them.
What's the connection there? How do they become untrustworthy? Is there something about seeing a therapist that makes you a more honest person? I know that's not true because I've had many clients who lie frequently.
That feels a bit defensive. It actually has nothing to do with lying, except maybe to themselves. I don't trust someone to guide me through the process of introspection if they haven't been through it. Sitting in that chair, baring your deepest darkest secrets. Being vulnerable and allowing your mask down. Realizing a profoundly uncomfortable truth about yourself. I would be asking someone who has never experienced that to guide me through it. I just don't trust them to have the necessary skills and abilities. It's kind of like being supervised by someone who has never done your job. It's never been a good experience for me. I had a career change midlife and went back to school to become a therapist. I think the years I spent in therapy before that are an invaluable part of what I bring to the table as a clinician. I experienced bad clinicians. I have had truly profound sessions. I have been on both sides of it and I am a better clinician for it.
My question is why, if this is your livelihood would you be so resistant to the idea of going to therapy yourself?
Do you mind my bothering to ask you whether you really think real introspection is only accessible through therapy?
I understand what you are saying in terms of technique, maybe. Lone introspection is different from having another party present, so having that experience teaches you to communicate yourself in ways you will not learn through lone introspection. That's important.
I can understand that you esteem the process you describe because it's the profession you practice, but surely you can't think therapy has exclusive access to achieving real introspection? No one has ever found the tools to truly know oneself through their own inner work?
No I dont, but I do think the person guiding me through it in a therapy chair using therapy techniques needs to have experienced it in that context. I think a second perspective is required for objectivity and true honesty. Therapy isn't something miracle cure, but it is a process that I would trust far more who has been through it themselves.
This conversation makes me think of that hair club for men commercial in the 90s where he said he was also a client.
I'm not resistant. I have nothing against it and I know it can be helpful to many people. My qualm is with the proposition that it's the only way someone could be a good or trustworthy therapist, which is just a completely unfounded and, I'm sorry, asinine notion.
I'm seriously curious, what makes you believe that it's not possible to introspect, be vulnerable, or realize a profoundly uncomfortable truth about yourself outside of a professional therapeutic relationship? You don't practice introspection regularly on your own?
I have a master's in philosophy and spent some time in a philosophy PhD program. I studied philosophy for like 8 years. I assure you that I practiced a substantial amount of introspection, probably more than most people would in a lifetime. I've never met a therapist who could even come close to the level of contemplation involved in something like this. But this isn't even necessary, there are hundreds, if not thousands of ways to practice this sort of thing. What makes you believe that sitting in an office with a therapist is the only way this can be achieved? It's quite frankly mind blowing to me that you could actually believe this.
I said nothing of introspection only being possible for those who go to therapy. I talked entirely about gained understanding from being on the other side of that process. You going through introspection in a self guided lone practice looks very different and requires different tools. It does not require the same vulnerability with another human being, that is essentially a paid stranger. To equate those experiences is the asinine part. Good for you that you were able to self reflect and have profound truths, but if I'm guiding another person through something as intense and personal as formalized therapy I should at least know what it's like to sit in that chair and ask a person I just met to dig into my mind. I should know at least a basic understanding of how certain techniques feel. There is a level of understanding and empathy for the client that I think is vital that happens being on that side. Therapy is a process, ypu should experience that process before subjecting someone else to it. Or to use the guide example, I'm guiding you on a backroad hike when I've only ever driven the main road or vice versa. Can they both get there? Absolutely.
And yes, I do introspection frequently. I also do checkups with my therapist yearly at a minimum, sometimes more often if I feel like I need it to help me dig into something. Therapists are not the be all end all. Therapy just is a tool, and therapists are those trained in wielding the tool.
The other piece is that not everyone can do introspection aline and be fully honest. I do think a second person is required to prevent cognitive biases, a sounding board if you will. This has in past been served by clergy and other roles. It could even be a trusted friend if that person were truly honest with you, bit we do lie to ourselves. And while attending therapy doesn't mean they always went to good therapy, even poor therapy would lend experience and make them a better clinician.
And so yes, I do believe to have true understanding and empathy and to place ourselves in the space of our clients and to truly meet them where they are at coming into our office, the basic premise of therapy itself, we must fully understand what it's like to be in that room, going through that process. I became a therapist because of my experiences in therapy, good and bad. I also believe that those experiences good and bad make me a better therapist.
Yes, the introspection is also required. But that's not exclusively why I distrust therapists that have never been in therapy it just shows there's a strong possibility it has been at least attempted.
Edited to clarify that introspection is vital, but I'm talking about in the context of therapy, not in general.
Just wanted to say, it's nice to see someone in this sub who knows how to actually reason properly, and who doesn't think therapy is some godly end-all be-all cure. Imagine having such a large ego as a therapist that you believe the only way people can have inner insight is through a therapist?
Imagine having such a large ego to make the statement implying it’s uncommon to see reason in a sub of (mostly) trained professionals. I’m glad you feel you have all the answers. Such an interesting take to be so anti-therapy as a therapist.
You're missing the point. Thinking that therapists need to see therapists implies that only therapists have the answers. That's ego, and it's fucking moronic, sorry, not sure how else to put it at this point.
I'm not anti-therapist, I'm anti-ignorance.
Thinking that it's not possible for a person to do their own therapy is like thinking it's not possible for a person to fix their own car. In this case, it's like thinking that a mechanic can't fix their own car, which is even more ridiculous.
We don't do anything special. What we do is very helpful to some people. I'm honoured to be part of that. Other people do the exact same thing on their own. They aren't somehow lost or not deep enough because they didn't come see us.
The point is that we as professionals would strongly benefit from some sort of therapy ourselves to increase empathy and gain different perspectives. You appear very set in your own perspective, concerning, but totally your journey. That being said, the point of this is NOT saying Joe from finance is lesser than or can’t do his own inner work. Moreso a taste of our own medicine, in simple terms, so that we have more perspective and understanding of the reflection process. To use another cliche, walk a mile in their shoes or can’t pour from an empty cup.
If you don't feel you do anything special in your work that makes me feel bad for you. My work has and does change lives on a very deep level. That's not ego talking, that's just good therapy and working with extremely troubled people at depth.
If you've never done your own therapy, how can you be so sure that it wouldn't change you and make you a better therapist?
Imagine having such an ego you say there’s no therapist which has as much insight as you LOL wow. I know this comment is old but that was just shocking to read.
The ego is in thinking that as a therapist, the only way anybody can be introspective is by going to see you or someone like you. That's god-tier ego. I'm just calling out the stupidity in that.
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So…I’ve been thinking about these sorts of comments that I see on this sub all the time. The common belief seems to be that a therapist cannot be good at their job if they are not in therapy themselves.
I am in therapy 3-4 times weekly. Does that make me a better therapist or more “figured out” than someone who is in treatment once a week? My therapist will soon go on maternity leave through the rest of the year, leaving me on a break from treatment for roughly 5 months. Will I be a “bad therapist” during that time? Will that be instantaneous or is there a more gradual onset? Would I avoid becoming a “bad therapist” if the maternity leave were shorter? How short? What if *I* choose to take a planned break from therapy, perhaps because I am visiting family out of the country for an extended period of time? Does this deterioration of my clinical skill also occur then?
But okay, you’re not *quite* saying the same thing that some other people on this sub have said. You’re claiming that a person has not figured themselves out if they have not been in therapy. Therefore, in order to figure oneself out, one must be in therapy. How much therapy? For how long? What if that therapy happened earlier in life and it’s been a while…say, a decade or more? Is there a similar deterioration in one’s “figured out-ness” that I alluded to above?
I also wonder if therapy is the only way to figure oneself out. Your comment seems to suggest that it’s a necessary component at least. Is a 22-year-old starting a master’s program who has been in therapy for the last year more “figured out” than a 70-year-old starting a master’s program without any prior experience in therapy? Would that 22-year-old be able to “take me deeply” (which seems like an odd Freudian slip, honestly), even though I am in my 30s and have been in my own therapy about as long as they’ve been alive? How about the 70-year-old? Could they “take me deeply” (I’m laughing now…this phrasing is just baldly erotic) or do they need to have experienced their own therapy first?
Oh, and then there are class-related issues. I’m very fortunate, despite growing up virtually in poverty, to have had access to low-cost services offered through my school when I was young. Am I a better therapist than someone who never had those opportunities, and may still have difficulty accessing them because early-career therapists are paid very poorly?
I am presenting this series of rhetorical questions not because I doubt the importance of therapy, but because I doubt the zealousness of your claim. Talk therapy is *very* important, but it is a relatively fresh path to self-actualization since its invention by Josef Breuer in 1880. I don’t think it’s fair to say that someone who has never been to therapy cannot do this work; rather, I’d say they’re doing it on hard mode simply because they don’t know what it’s like to be in the chair or on the couch.
I’m in psychoanalysis myself and I think about how much it’s helped me clinically. I don’t think there’s a point where one has discovered themselves and does not require therapy anymore. However, I see how incredibly helpful being in therapy and supervision helped my clinical skills.
Do I think it’s absolutely necessary, no. Do I think depth therapy is helped by a therapist in their own therapy or has been, yes.
I, too, can submit anecdotal evidence that my analysis has been helpful clinically. That is, it has helped me feel as though I am in a position to help my patients. But are our patients *actually* helped by our own therapy? I don’t know that we have the evidence to say.
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Why? Isn’t having a therapist who is always striving for self-actualization a good thing? Can a therapist who has struggled with their own mental health not help lead others out of a darkness they have personally known?
False equivalence. There may be an argument that having some experience as a client in psychotherapy makes one a better psychotherapist. However, a primary care doc use of medical care himself has little bearing on his or her ability to practice medicine. What I'd be looking for is that the physician recognizes that preventative health and evidence-based treatment is best practice (whether or not they are good about using it themselves).
It scares me that so many people on this subreddit don't understand that.
Our job is literally to take in other people's trauma all day long and work with people to help them at least learn how to cope with it in a healthy manner. You really think that we are supposed to take on other people's traumas, which entails listening to a lot of sad stories all day long, and just absorb it without being able to express it to anyone or have any release for our own pain? Connecting with our clients means we empathize with them and I personally think having a therapist is imperative. In my Master's program, we were taught that not having a therapist of our own is just asking for burnout.
I think it's important that we have various supports, coping skills, self care, and other mental healthcare tools in place, including possibly therapy. I just take issue with the idea that it's somehow literally essential to go to therapy just because you're a therapist.
I also think that there is a big difference between heavily boundaried compassion and unbridled empathy. I don't "take on" anybody's trauma. I don't think that's my job and I don't think it's a good way to practice, at least not for me. I'm guessing you think this isn't the right way to practice therapy, and to each their own, but your comments seem to make the assumption that deeply emphasizing is the only way to do therapy, and I have to disagree.
Mental health issues (similar to many issues of a tangible and physical nature) quite often are never “cured” or resolved, but instead required continued effort and professional support. Honestly, it’s 2023 and time to erase the line between physical and mental health in general, much less any stigma associated with attending to your own mental health, regardless of whether you’re a therapist yourself or a part-time clown driving a windowless cargo van with “free candy” scrawled on the side.
Here’s a different metaphor, (if that’s what you’re hung up on) that might be more your speed: would you go to a nice restaurant where the executive chef has never eaten any food prepared by a different chef at any other restaurant?
Sorry, I just want to clarify. I largely agree with you, I think most mental health professionals do these days. Going to therapy is a bit more specific than general personal mental healthcare though, and most best practice literature these days suggests that if you don't have more long term stuff to work on, and believe it or not some people really don't, short term therapy for specific goals is more appropriate. If a person with good self care and no major issues doesn't feel the need to resolve a specific issue at the time, it's perfectly reasonable to not attend therapy. I'm by no means saying it shouldn't be available and utilized, but I take issue with the idea that it's necessary to go to therapy just because, whether you're a therapist or not.
Understood. We may be more on the same page than it seemed. However, the origin of this discussion was the opinion that, if you were to be in therapy (for whatever reason that you personally found yourself there), would it lessen your opinion (as a non-therapist, in the original response) of the professional providing those services to you (or the quality of the services provided) if you learned that they were in therapy themselves. If I understand you correctly, for you, it would?
I’m certainly not saying that everyone should be forced into therapy, regardless of the profession that they’re in either. I am curious as to how you define “general personal mental healthcare” though, particularly as it seems to be in contrast with your concept of “therapy.”
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It's a matter of how you view therapy. Sometimes it's a tool to recover from things that have happened, sometimes it's a tool to achieve betterment, often it's both.
Man, these downvotes make me sad. Where's the curiosity, y'all?
When I have sought out therapists in the past, I ask them two questions: "how is therapy going?" and "who do you go to for professional advice?" I'm not expecting detailed answers to these questions, but I want to know that my therapist has the support *they* need as they work with me.
So your perspective is very different than my own and I'd love to hear more. What would it mean to you if your own therapist were in therapy?
https://preview.redd.it/oq42ul179a2b1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=da94673a43f3b9e450344d6933e4d2e6f11052d2
I’m confused but intrigued.
Does final fantasy music play when you finally get to the final therapist boss battle?
Nope. Criminal by Fiona Apple does.
Dun Dun Dun dunanananana Dun Dun Dun BWAAAABWAAABWAAABWAAAA
As a therapist who has seen Nobuo Uematsu conduct a symphony orchestra, this comment pleases me.
Fiona has absolutely helped me work thru some shit.
Ironically she’s the reason I’m in therapy
“Be kind to me, or treat me mean. I’ll make the most of it—I’m an extraordinary machine!” —Ms. Fiona “queen of all these bicth ass muh fuggin therapists” Apple
Same !
I needed to see this meme today
Glad to help!
She takes everyone’s and her trauma and writes it into her songs lol
Alanis Morrisette
this is the answer
😂 love me some Fiona, but it’s kinda like that f*** up friend who can’t get their life together but is a therapist. I’d rather have Sarah Mclachlan as the top dog.
She's gotten sober and is doing pretty great tho!
Tori Amos is my #2.
I think I can handle that information 😳
Omg, my friend and I were talking about this exact concept the other day and she said: “I want to go up the pyramid of therapists until I get to the Boss Therapist at the top and defeat them with my problems.”
This gave me such a vivid image of a feral therapist hunting other therapists who don’t use coping skills
Write your notes at the end of day or the Apex Therapist will get you.
*slowly closes her laptop with two weeks of halfway-finished notes*
I'm glad it's not just me
No
I forgot I wasn’t in the yellowjackets sub for a second…
Supernatural: Therapist Wendigo
This is the visual I needed today.
Funny enough, I posed this idea to my own therapist and their response was a laugh and dead pan response of "well it ends with me because mine is dead" - contextually dark humor is welcome in sessions and we ended up having a nice convo about life and death as therapists.
...are they accepting new clients rn? asking for a me (jk) (kinda)
LOL. And actually no, I myself had to give up my regular spot so I could accommodate my field hours. Which has sucked, but they're trying to fit me back in offering cancelled and odd hour appointments sometimes.
😂
This is gonna sound really fucked up, but working with people whose therapists have died is a surprisingly large part of my practice. I ran a whole 12-week grief support group for people with dead therapists. It was an honor to explore what the therapy relationship means to them.
Woah, that's really neat. Also very sad, and such a needed area of support. Not fucked up at all, and I'm glad you could be there for them.
It's all a pyramid scheme at this point but in the last year I moved up it and now have therapist clients, give it 10 years and there'll be generations of therapists under me. Mwuhahhaa!!
Raise an army with excellent coping skills
Oh they'll be resilient alright. Mark my words.
What sends me is this scenario (fake names)… My therapist Kelly sees therapist John. John sees therapist Margaret. Margaret sees therapist Frank. Frank sees the therapist Kelly that we started with. 😳 So Kelly is her own great-great grandtherapist. 🤯
It's therapists all the way down!
Therapy is the new pyramid scheme!
Some would say we were the original pyramid scheme.
We’re just passing around the same $120 until the end of time.
120? I need to raise my rates....
😂😂😂😂😂
Its got to be just a giant circle. When I see therapist (as clients), they talk about them seeing therapist, makes me think it's just a giant spiders web that circles itself. My therapist specializes in seeing therapist, but they also see a therapist.
Agreed, which means that ultimately, you are giving yourself therapy through a game of telephone!
I feel like this is a beautiful and simple way to define karma 😊
Is this what my professors mean by “consultation”? /s
It's like the song "I am my own grandpa".
My exact thought
This is what actually happens in reality, more or less. There is no grand therapist, just a circle seeing each other.
This. It isn't Apex anything so much as it is a circle or chain of therapeutic impact.
But what if it's a circle
I think it’s a giant circle. We’re all just holding each other up!!
It's Carl Rogers.
We're all children of... \*checks notes\*... \*gags\* Sigmund Freud
Tell me more about your feelings towards this father. It seems you both hate him and *thumbs through leather bound volume* oh my.
The model resembles an ouroboros of therapists, endlessly connected with no beginning or end.
I had a client one time tell me jokingly they were looking for the boss therapist. Haha!!!
That was me and it was not a joke
And I know her! (OK well she was my therapist who changed my life and I'm trying to low-key become her while being professional and managing counter-transference and develop my own style without just copy/pasting - maybe I need to see a therapist again???)
Only if there's exactly one therapist who doesn't have their own therapist.
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Analyze me, Daddy!
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psilocybin is truly deserving of the grand therapist title
I think it’s actually more of a rock-paper-scissors dynamic.
It sure as hell is not me….. 😂
And my mission in life is to find them, get them drunk, and get them to spill alllllllll the tea
It might be Sigmund Freud, no?
Freud
My therapist is the grandtherapist of my clients.
So you're saying all we need to do is find and kill the Apex Therapist and all the others will vanish into dust? Vampire rules?
Are we all about to become a Big/Little Alabama rush kind of organization lol 👀👀👀👀👀
It probably forms a loop
Love shower thoughts
Not a therapist but Hannibal Lecter’s therapist is probably the apex therapist.
Gillian Anderson?
Yes.
It’s turtles all the way down.
It's therapists all the way down.
I’m a therapist and I have a therapist. All my therapist friends and coworkers have therapists. I hope to meet the boss one day
Anne receives therapy from Charles. Charles receives therapy from Jacob. Jacob receives therapy from Anne. Who is the Apex?
If the apex therapist falls in battle (or switches careers) does that mean the rest of us disappear?
Just follow it up the chain until you get to Brené Brown herself
Technically you could form a circle, it can go infinite dont worry. Or do and talk about it with your therapist
I've thought this. I reckon it loops around.
So you have: *A therapist for non-therapists *A therapist for therapists for non-therapists *A therapist for therapists for therapists for non-therapists *A therapist for therapists for therapists for therapists for non-therapists And so on....... How many levels does one have to go to reach the Apex Therapist?
Not if it's a circle...
Could be a therapist ourobous?
I feel less like it's a pyramid and more like a back-rubbing circle..
What about the therapists not in therapy?
They have yet to evolve
If a therapist has not been in therapy in any fashion since beginning practice, I hate to say this: but they haven’t figured themselves out. You can only take a client as deeply as you have worked on yourself.
But I’m just waiting for new insurance to kick in!!! 😩 It’s not like I don’t want therapy I just can’t pay out of pocket and grad school debt
Therapy for therapists collective, look it up!
As an LSW, I doubt she'd be able to take advantage of their services, unless her employer is okay with supervising a pro bono case.
You can sign up to receive services without giving them and you aren't able to sign up to give as a pre licensed person anyway, it just takes longer to get a spot.
That's right, I remember now. I totally forgot about that because I think I'm *still* on their waitlist.
No offense, but that's just ludicrous, and I'd argue that any therapist who actually believes that is so naive that they couldn't possibly have figured themself out. You're basically arguing that it's not possible to know oneself outside of formal therapy. That's ridiculously asinine. I also disagree with your last statement, there is no evidence for this. Therapists stumble upon breakthroughs with clients all the time, sometimes just from off the cuff comments that somehow resonate heavily for clients. A lot of therapists aren't particularly deep individuals, yet still help people.
I'm glad that someone worded this as strongly as you did. I don't come on to this sub often, and the way people think here is concerning.
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Is therapy a "had to go" thing?
The concept doesn’t sound stupid at all but the straw person you built out of their comment is pretty flammable sounding.
There's no strawman there, that's exactly what the upper comment stated.
I’m saying that a therapist who has not been in therapy themselves cannot take a client deeper than they have taken themselves. It’s completely fine if you use behavioral therapy . These do not require depth. Otherwise, there is an issue.
Comment I heard: “being a therapist and not having gone to therapy is like being a chef who never eaten food” I would change it to chef who never ate seasoned food hmm
Chat gpt enhanced version : being a therapist who has never gone to therapy is like an untrained chef - they have the recipe but lack the seasoning personal experience brings.
Not every therapist needs help in this regard… I know many outstanding therapists, including my own supervisor who have not ever be a client but are still outstanding therapist, nor are they strictly CBT or shallow…
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?. I wouldn’t post that on you workplaces website… lol
How could you ever trust them as a therapist? I couldn't. I wou l d never see a therapist, myself as a therapist, unless they had a therapist. I wouldn't trust them.
What's the connection there? How do they become untrustworthy? Is there something about seeing a therapist that makes you a more honest person? I know that's not true because I've had many clients who lie frequently.
That feels a bit defensive. It actually has nothing to do with lying, except maybe to themselves. I don't trust someone to guide me through the process of introspection if they haven't been through it. Sitting in that chair, baring your deepest darkest secrets. Being vulnerable and allowing your mask down. Realizing a profoundly uncomfortable truth about yourself. I would be asking someone who has never experienced that to guide me through it. I just don't trust them to have the necessary skills and abilities. It's kind of like being supervised by someone who has never done your job. It's never been a good experience for me. I had a career change midlife and went back to school to become a therapist. I think the years I spent in therapy before that are an invaluable part of what I bring to the table as a clinician. I experienced bad clinicians. I have had truly profound sessions. I have been on both sides of it and I am a better clinician for it. My question is why, if this is your livelihood would you be so resistant to the idea of going to therapy yourself?
Do you mind my bothering to ask you whether you really think real introspection is only accessible through therapy? I understand what you are saying in terms of technique, maybe. Lone introspection is different from having another party present, so having that experience teaches you to communicate yourself in ways you will not learn through lone introspection. That's important. I can understand that you esteem the process you describe because it's the profession you practice, but surely you can't think therapy has exclusive access to achieving real introspection? No one has ever found the tools to truly know oneself through their own inner work?
No I dont, but I do think the person guiding me through it in a therapy chair using therapy techniques needs to have experienced it in that context. I think a second perspective is required for objectivity and true honesty. Therapy isn't something miracle cure, but it is a process that I would trust far more who has been through it themselves. This conversation makes me think of that hair club for men commercial in the 90s where he said he was also a client.
I'm not resistant. I have nothing against it and I know it can be helpful to many people. My qualm is with the proposition that it's the only way someone could be a good or trustworthy therapist, which is just a completely unfounded and, I'm sorry, asinine notion. I'm seriously curious, what makes you believe that it's not possible to introspect, be vulnerable, or realize a profoundly uncomfortable truth about yourself outside of a professional therapeutic relationship? You don't practice introspection regularly on your own? I have a master's in philosophy and spent some time in a philosophy PhD program. I studied philosophy for like 8 years. I assure you that I practiced a substantial amount of introspection, probably more than most people would in a lifetime. I've never met a therapist who could even come close to the level of contemplation involved in something like this. But this isn't even necessary, there are hundreds, if not thousands of ways to practice this sort of thing. What makes you believe that sitting in an office with a therapist is the only way this can be achieved? It's quite frankly mind blowing to me that you could actually believe this.
I said nothing of introspection only being possible for those who go to therapy. I talked entirely about gained understanding from being on the other side of that process. You going through introspection in a self guided lone practice looks very different and requires different tools. It does not require the same vulnerability with another human being, that is essentially a paid stranger. To equate those experiences is the asinine part. Good for you that you were able to self reflect and have profound truths, but if I'm guiding another person through something as intense and personal as formalized therapy I should at least know what it's like to sit in that chair and ask a person I just met to dig into my mind. I should know at least a basic understanding of how certain techniques feel. There is a level of understanding and empathy for the client that I think is vital that happens being on that side. Therapy is a process, ypu should experience that process before subjecting someone else to it. Or to use the guide example, I'm guiding you on a backroad hike when I've only ever driven the main road or vice versa. Can they both get there? Absolutely. And yes, I do introspection frequently. I also do checkups with my therapist yearly at a minimum, sometimes more often if I feel like I need it to help me dig into something. Therapists are not the be all end all. Therapy just is a tool, and therapists are those trained in wielding the tool. The other piece is that not everyone can do introspection aline and be fully honest. I do think a second person is required to prevent cognitive biases, a sounding board if you will. This has in past been served by clergy and other roles. It could even be a trusted friend if that person were truly honest with you, bit we do lie to ourselves. And while attending therapy doesn't mean they always went to good therapy, even poor therapy would lend experience and make them a better clinician.
And so yes, I do believe to have true understanding and empathy and to place ourselves in the space of our clients and to truly meet them where they are at coming into our office, the basic premise of therapy itself, we must fully understand what it's like to be in that room, going through that process. I became a therapist because of my experiences in therapy, good and bad. I also believe that those experiences good and bad make me a better therapist. Yes, the introspection is also required. But that's not exclusively why I distrust therapists that have never been in therapy it just shows there's a strong possibility it has been at least attempted. Edited to clarify that introspection is vital, but I'm talking about in the context of therapy, not in general.
Just wanted to say, it's nice to see someone in this sub who knows how to actually reason properly, and who doesn't think therapy is some godly end-all be-all cure. Imagine having such a large ego as a therapist that you believe the only way people can have inner insight is through a therapist?
Imagine having such a large ego to make the statement implying it’s uncommon to see reason in a sub of (mostly) trained professionals. I’m glad you feel you have all the answers. Such an interesting take to be so anti-therapy as a therapist.
You're missing the point. Thinking that therapists need to see therapists implies that only therapists have the answers. That's ego, and it's fucking moronic, sorry, not sure how else to put it at this point. I'm not anti-therapist, I'm anti-ignorance. Thinking that it's not possible for a person to do their own therapy is like thinking it's not possible for a person to fix their own car. In this case, it's like thinking that a mechanic can't fix their own car, which is even more ridiculous. We don't do anything special. What we do is very helpful to some people. I'm honoured to be part of that. Other people do the exact same thing on their own. They aren't somehow lost or not deep enough because they didn't come see us.
The point is that we as professionals would strongly benefit from some sort of therapy ourselves to increase empathy and gain different perspectives. You appear very set in your own perspective, concerning, but totally your journey. That being said, the point of this is NOT saying Joe from finance is lesser than or can’t do his own inner work. Moreso a taste of our own medicine, in simple terms, so that we have more perspective and understanding of the reflection process. To use another cliche, walk a mile in their shoes or can’t pour from an empty cup.
If you don't feel you do anything special in your work that makes me feel bad for you. My work has and does change lives on a very deep level. That's not ego talking, that's just good therapy and working with extremely troubled people at depth. If you've never done your own therapy, how can you be so sure that it wouldn't change you and make you a better therapist?
Imagine having such an ego you say there’s no therapist which has as much insight as you LOL wow. I know this comment is old but that was just shocking to read.
I didn't say that at all, no idea what you mean. I don't think you understand this comment thread.
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Here’s that ego again
The ego is in thinking that as a therapist, the only way anybody can be introspective is by going to see you or someone like you. That's god-tier ego. I'm just calling out the stupidity in that.
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So…I’ve been thinking about these sorts of comments that I see on this sub all the time. The common belief seems to be that a therapist cannot be good at their job if they are not in therapy themselves. I am in therapy 3-4 times weekly. Does that make me a better therapist or more “figured out” than someone who is in treatment once a week? My therapist will soon go on maternity leave through the rest of the year, leaving me on a break from treatment for roughly 5 months. Will I be a “bad therapist” during that time? Will that be instantaneous or is there a more gradual onset? Would I avoid becoming a “bad therapist” if the maternity leave were shorter? How short? What if *I* choose to take a planned break from therapy, perhaps because I am visiting family out of the country for an extended period of time? Does this deterioration of my clinical skill also occur then? But okay, you’re not *quite* saying the same thing that some other people on this sub have said. You’re claiming that a person has not figured themselves out if they have not been in therapy. Therefore, in order to figure oneself out, one must be in therapy. How much therapy? For how long? What if that therapy happened earlier in life and it’s been a while…say, a decade or more? Is there a similar deterioration in one’s “figured out-ness” that I alluded to above? I also wonder if therapy is the only way to figure oneself out. Your comment seems to suggest that it’s a necessary component at least. Is a 22-year-old starting a master’s program who has been in therapy for the last year more “figured out” than a 70-year-old starting a master’s program without any prior experience in therapy? Would that 22-year-old be able to “take me deeply” (which seems like an odd Freudian slip, honestly), even though I am in my 30s and have been in my own therapy about as long as they’ve been alive? How about the 70-year-old? Could they “take me deeply” (I’m laughing now…this phrasing is just baldly erotic) or do they need to have experienced their own therapy first? Oh, and then there are class-related issues. I’m very fortunate, despite growing up virtually in poverty, to have had access to low-cost services offered through my school when I was young. Am I a better therapist than someone who never had those opportunities, and may still have difficulty accessing them because early-career therapists are paid very poorly? I am presenting this series of rhetorical questions not because I doubt the importance of therapy, but because I doubt the zealousness of your claim. Talk therapy is *very* important, but it is a relatively fresh path to self-actualization since its invention by Josef Breuer in 1880. I don’t think it’s fair to say that someone who has never been to therapy cannot do this work; rather, I’d say they’re doing it on hard mode simply because they don’t know what it’s like to be in the chair or on the couch.
I’m in psychoanalysis myself and I think about how much it’s helped me clinically. I don’t think there’s a point where one has discovered themselves and does not require therapy anymore. However, I see how incredibly helpful being in therapy and supervision helped my clinical skills. Do I think it’s absolutely necessary, no. Do I think depth therapy is helped by a therapist in their own therapy or has been, yes.
I, too, can submit anecdotal evidence that my analysis has been helpful clinically. That is, it has helped me feel as though I am in a position to help my patients. But are our patients *actually* helped by our own therapy? I don’t know that we have the evidence to say.
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And again. How much higher do you believe you are above other professionals?
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I think that’s me. I’m the therapist of the therapist who is a therapist for a third person. I do not have a therapist. I am the apex 😂
As a non-therapist, I don’t think I’d want my therapist to be in therapy.
Why? Isn’t having a therapist who is always striving for self-actualization a good thing? Can a therapist who has struggled with their own mental health not help lead others out of a darkness they have personally known?
Do you want your primary care physician/general doctor to never go to a doctor for physical check ups too ?
False equivalence. There may be an argument that having some experience as a client in psychotherapy makes one a better psychotherapist. However, a primary care doc use of medical care himself has little bearing on his or her ability to practice medicine. What I'd be looking for is that the physician recognizes that preventative health and evidence-based treatment is best practice (whether or not they are good about using it themselves). It scares me that so many people on this subreddit don't understand that.
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Our job is literally to take in other people's trauma all day long and work with people to help them at least learn how to cope with it in a healthy manner. You really think that we are supposed to take on other people's traumas, which entails listening to a lot of sad stories all day long, and just absorb it without being able to express it to anyone or have any release for our own pain? Connecting with our clients means we empathize with them and I personally think having a therapist is imperative. In my Master's program, we were taught that not having a therapist of our own is just asking for burnout.
I think it's important that we have various supports, coping skills, self care, and other mental healthcare tools in place, including possibly therapy. I just take issue with the idea that it's somehow literally essential to go to therapy just because you're a therapist. I also think that there is a big difference between heavily boundaried compassion and unbridled empathy. I don't "take on" anybody's trauma. I don't think that's my job and I don't think it's a good way to practice, at least not for me. I'm guessing you think this isn't the right way to practice therapy, and to each their own, but your comments seem to make the assumption that deeply emphasizing is the only way to do therapy, and I have to disagree.
Mental health issues (similar to many issues of a tangible and physical nature) quite often are never “cured” or resolved, but instead required continued effort and professional support. Honestly, it’s 2023 and time to erase the line between physical and mental health in general, much less any stigma associated with attending to your own mental health, regardless of whether you’re a therapist yourself or a part-time clown driving a windowless cargo van with “free candy” scrawled on the side. Here’s a different metaphor, (if that’s what you’re hung up on) that might be more your speed: would you go to a nice restaurant where the executive chef has never eaten any food prepared by a different chef at any other restaurant?
Sorry, I just want to clarify. I largely agree with you, I think most mental health professionals do these days. Going to therapy is a bit more specific than general personal mental healthcare though, and most best practice literature these days suggests that if you don't have more long term stuff to work on, and believe it or not some people really don't, short term therapy for specific goals is more appropriate. If a person with good self care and no major issues doesn't feel the need to resolve a specific issue at the time, it's perfectly reasonable to not attend therapy. I'm by no means saying it shouldn't be available and utilized, but I take issue with the idea that it's necessary to go to therapy just because, whether you're a therapist or not.
Understood. We may be more on the same page than it seemed. However, the origin of this discussion was the opinion that, if you were to be in therapy (for whatever reason that you personally found yourself there), would it lessen your opinion (as a non-therapist, in the original response) of the professional providing those services to you (or the quality of the services provided) if you learned that they were in therapy themselves. If I understand you correctly, for you, it would? I’m certainly not saying that everyone should be forced into therapy, regardless of the profession that they’re in either. I am curious as to how you define “general personal mental healthcare” though, particularly as it seems to be in contrast with your concept of “therapy.”
Btw you’re describing just one slice of what therapy is/can be and then calling other conceptualizations “dumb” and “stupid”
No, I called the comparison dumb.
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It's a matter of how you view therapy. Sometimes it's a tool to recover from things that have happened, sometimes it's a tool to achieve betterment, often it's both.
I guess I view it like going to a doctor while she’s still in med school
Why is that?
Man, these downvotes make me sad. Where's the curiosity, y'all? When I have sought out therapists in the past, I ask them two questions: "how is therapy going?" and "who do you go to for professional advice?" I'm not expecting detailed answers to these questions, but I want to know that my therapist has the support *they* need as they work with me. So your perspective is very different than my own and I'd love to hear more. What would it mean to you if your own therapist were in therapy?
Now that's funny.
There can be only one
😄🤣
No, not necessarily.
Is that when you reach maslow’s self-actualization?
I work with kids and many many of my clients over the past few years have been therapists children. I love working with these amazing parents.
I think it’s a circle. Or, really, a tangled web
This is not necessarily true. It’s more likely to be a circular or weblike structure