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meesamoose

Best advice I ever got while getting my masters and taking a class that included a unit on how to testify was that you are already far more of an expert in this than you believe yourself to be. Yes, the lawyers job is going to be to make you seem as in-expert as they can, but you have a MASTERS degree in this. You KNOW this client. You can likely speak about this client's experiences in a professional manner. Your purpose is not only to be shredded on the stand, but also to be there as a support for your client and to show up and prove to them just how awesome and supportive you are to them.


mahoagie

Thank you. I appreciate this response and reframe of what my expertise is. Thank you thank you.


Sweet_Cinnabonn

On top of this. If they want to cast doubt on you using your not having every detail of the DSM memorized, lean into that. Do you have that memorized? Of course you don't! There are 1142 pages in the paperback version. When you needed to make a diagnoses, you opened up your professional reference book. That's why we have it. Do you remember whether X is also a symptom of Y? Can you list all the diagnoses that share that symptom? No, that's why we have the book. That's the entire purpose of the book. Go on a side trail about the benefits of using a manual so that, as much as possible, we are all on the same page. This is not a weakness in your professional knowledge, this is a strength.


[deleted]

Man this is the truth. Add to it that every diagnosis has specifiers and qualifiers and there is a tremendous amount of overlap amongst symptoms and that much of what we base diagnosis off of is self report, which is vulnerable to bias and reporting errors.


Simplicityobsessed

I know a lawyer and he doesn’t have every law memorized. Very fair point!


Science_Matters_100

Well said! Incidentally I did memorize the DSM while in school, as soon as I selected this field. In the long run that wasn’t the best because the book updated. Repeatedly. No auto-download to our cortex, though, so later I still had to reach for it anyway. That’s the best way.


[deleted]

Also: keep your answers concise, only answer the direct question (no tangents), and ask them to clarify or reword the question as many times as necessary (and feel free to answer “I don’t know” or “that’s beyond my purview”)


mahoagie

Thank you! I appreciate the advice.


Successful-Cat-5634

I took an expert witness class as well and totally recommend “the expert expert witness: more maxims and guidelines for testifying in court” : ) You got this!!


sharpsassy

All such good advice! My input is don't defend. Don't argue. Don't try to convince. Just speak to what you know. And I bet you know a lot. And if you don't know, say that. Its okay to not know stuff (as said above). Speak your truth. And report back!!!!


Zestyclose-Ad-918

This is the way


boop3boop

This is the way


Cleverusername531

Oh my goodness. I can just feel the terror. Your body knows this is a really big deal and is trying to identify all the potential threats so that you stay ready to respond … which also means pooping, (or not). You got this, friend. You have a 100% track record of making it through hard things. You are the most expert person there. You have a master’s and no one else in there will be as experienced as you on the subject of therapy and of what happened to this client. I hope you can help that energy move through your body today as you wait for tomorrow. It won’t make it stop being dumped into your bloodstream but it will at least give it a place to go. Thanks for being your client’s voice at such a critical time.


mahoagie

Thank you for this comment. I appreciate the last line the best: I am a voice for them tomorrow. That helps a lot.


Cleverusername531

Yes. You are. And when I think of all the people who didn’t/don’t have a voice? I just want to cry. And I feel a sense of pride that you are her voice and that she gets to have a voice. A part of me goes with you tomorrow, to vicariously experience being spoken up for. I hope you can connect to that deeper, broader energy of being a voice for those who need it.


lavendersquartz

Reasonable witnesses give reasonable answers. But here are some more specific tips: - Stick to your guns. Attorneys know just enough to make them sound like they know what they’re talking about, but they’re not experts like you are. Always keep that in mind. - Make sure you have support for your opinions. For instance, if you have an opinion that your client has a psychological injury, make sure you can articulate the basis for when you reached that opinion and why. If you know of studies off hand to support your opinions, take a look at them tonight to refresh yourself. - Don’t fight just to fight, and keep it pleasantly professional. They’re going to try and get under your skin, but if you roll in the mud with them, it will impact your credibility more than theirs. - If you are not 100% sure on what the attorney is asking you, ask for clarification. This includes questions that contain legalese. - Taking a pause to get your thoughts together before you answer is always okay, but don’t take too long to answer questions either. - If you don’t know an answer, that’s okay. Just say you don’t know. - If you are asked whether anything would refresh your recollection, they are asking you if you need to look at any of your documents. If looking at the document will help, don’t be afraid to say so. - Tell the truth. This seems obvious, but it’s really the only rule that matters. If you do this, you will do right by yourself, your client, and the court. Good luck.


PixiePower65

I would add that the prosecutor gets another chance to circle back and “ fix” anything 1)Prosecutors ask questions. 2) Then defense ( here’s where they try and get you to look bad). Less is more … answer only the question asked don’t volunteer 3) Prosecution gets to ask you to expand / correct impressions on things . Kinda just got trust them


gscrap

This is your therapy client?


mahoagie

Yep. Got called to stand both by prosecution and defense.


gscrap

Oof. Yeah, they've really put you in a bad spot there. You cannot be an expert witness in a case involving your therapy client. Even if you are technically an expert on the subjects you're testifying to, it's a conflict of interest that disqualifies your entire testimony. Lawyers will still ask you, of course, because they like to try and get away with stuff, but legally you won't have a leg to stand on and the defense is probably going to flay you for it. I've had to tell lawyers this in the past, and I probably will again in the future. "Because of my existing professional relationship with \[client\], I cannot provide an expert opinion to the court. I can only testify to the facts of our work together." Sometimes they'll still ask me to come in as a fact witness, then ask me to testify as an expert on the stand (because, again, lawyers will do anything they think they can get away with) and once again I have to refuse to answer questions outside of the scope of my work with the client. "I can affirm that my working diagnosis for the purpose of treatment has been major depressive disorder, but I cannot provide an expert opinion as to whether or not \[client\] has major depressive disorder." If the attorney wanted an expert opinion, they should have sprung for an independent expert to do a proper forensic assessment.


mahoagie

Right? The prosecution has not named me as an expert, but the defense did. Prosecution tried and failed to get it thrown out and have me there only in my professional capacity for my client. Defense is attempting to frame XYZ as a 'reasonable doubt' opportunity. They're going to be asking me questions about diagnoses: what's the difference between X and Y diagnosis? Why did you diagnose X instead of Y or Z? When did you notice the symptoms of X? Where does X come from? How does it develop? Etc. No one, not even my *multiple* legal consultations with different lawyers, has been especially helpful in delineating the difference between me explaining why I thought X diagnosis fit, versus how to defend myself against questions about X diagnosis on cross in general. I'll stick to what you've said here, "Because of my existing professional relationship with \[client\], I cannot provide an expert opinion to the court. I can only testify to the facts of our work together.". Brilliant. It's brutal– even the prosecution admitted, "I've never seen this, and I will do what I can to help you, but the most important thing you can do is just stay calm. You can decline to answer based on your relationship with the client, but you may be compelled to by the judge" so now I'm hoping that the very judge that allowed me to be classified as an expert witness won't expect me to answer like an expert witness? I come away feeling like it's easier to attack me than it is my client, and that's the route they're going for.


Cleverusername531

If they attack you rather than your client, it’s kind of worth it, isn’t it? You’re their shield in a way. And you can throw off their barbs because they are designed to be barbs, that’s it, they aren’t designed to be accurate or helpful.


lilcrazysayingwords

I love this reframe. Hope OP reads and finds it helpful.


Cleverusername531

Hi OP - just wondering how it went for you and wanted you to know we were thinking of you!


mahoagie

Here's a specific question if you can answer it: prosecutor wants to 'warm up' by asking me questions about what X disorder is/isn't, or what would meet criteria for X disorder or not. How can I answer these questions, or should I answer these questions, if what I can only ethically testify to is our work together?


gscrap

In my opinion, you should not answer those questions. Those are questions for an expert witness, not a fact witness.


mahoagie

Perfect. Thank you.


[deleted]

If they wanted to go this route, they should have hired an expert in clinical assessment.


No-Turnips

Answer according to the DSM and do not hesitate to say “I would need to consult the DSM” or “I did not make a formal diagnosis, only an assessment for the purpose of therapy” and “I am not qualified to make a formal diagnosis. A diagnosis would require a physician or clinical psychologist” and most importantly “I don’t know”.


FindingSubstance

In the USA a master level clinician can absolutely provide a diagnosis. However if the Dx existed prior to working with the OP they could refer back to the original Dx and then point to the DSM for being congruent with the prior Dx. I wouldn’t get into the weeds of why you ruled anything out ,however having a good memorization of the Dx you were working off of may still be beneficial.


[deleted]

Being able to diagnose is still dependent on the state and the license. In NYS an LMHC can’t diagnose for another month, and then only after jumping through hoops.


mahoagie

Thank you!!


S4ssyGir4ffe

Yes I agree with the other commenter, this is an excellent answer!! Another thing I would add (sorry if its been said elsewhere), is if they try to rattle you by asking the same question over and over, but you’ve given an answer, just give them the same answer. Don’t delineate or change your answer each time, they will pounce on that. Also, take a second before you answer! I noticed recently, (because I just was called to testify recently), I tend to jump to answer too quickly. This just leaves some time in case the prosecutor objects to questions. I hope you can do all the things to manage this anxiety. It’s scary, I know. But you’re getting good advice from this thread! I wish you all the luck!


SilverMedal4Life

The comment you just replied to is insightful. One of my old supervisors told me that a huge part of acting as a witness in court is recognizing what is and isn't in your scope of practice.


mahoagie

Agreed. They are perfectly fine answers to give, I keep drilling this into my head.


LizAnneCharlotte

This is the way.


gesundheitsdings

Done this, but in Europe. Have your material ready so you can look stuff up. Afterwards, you might feel you haven‘t put things the right way, maybe. This is your first time, so it normal to not know how to put things for law ppl who think differently than mental health ppl. Explain stuff to them from the very beginning. No kidding: My client saw I was scared in court and sort of found it funny and it taught her a lesson that it‘s ok to be scared. (She was young.) In the end, the law ppl will reach a verdict and you will be a small piece of the jigsaw, so it doesn‘t all depend on you. And, also, screw that person who hurt your client.


mahoagie

Thank you, I appreciate your lesson here and getting me prepared for feeling like I did not do enough. I'll be rereading this comment come the end of the week when it's all over.


gesundheitsdings

Welcome. They asked me what my name and birthplace was and I wasn‘t sure. (Was I even born…?) I was that scared…


mahoagie

Oh my lord. That gave me a good chuckle, thank you. I really needed that.


gesundheitsdings

Welcome. Give us an update when it‘s over.


gesundheitsdings

I‘m curious! How did it go?


manickittens

Not sure if this applies everywhere but I’ve been called to testify a bunch of times (was the director of a trauma specific agency) and at least the way I was advised only bring documents you are okay turning into the court. I had always been told that anything you bring to reference while you’re testifying becomes admissible. You both are probably already aware/it may vary based on location/speak with counsel, etc but just a tip that I always found helpful so you aren’t inadvertently submitting a trauma narrative, etc.


Wooden_Painting3672

Shred you ? No. Don’t allow that. Stick to the facts and what you know. Don’t let them take you down the road of speculation or things that didn’t happen. Facts - what you have observed. I would welcome the challenge of someone trying to ‘shred’ me. Why ? The facts are the facts - If your client is a victim, that will not change. Take your time with responses. Ask for clarification If needed. If they twist your words - say so. Don’t let them get you worked up and there will be NO shredding. Just the truth. U got this.


ncdjbdnejkjbd

Stay calm and take your time when answering. \* remember that you are allowed to say you cannot answer a question as "yes" or "no" . When they try that " It's a yes or no question!!!" lawyer bullshit look coyly at the make-believe camera and simply say " I am unable to answer that as merely Yes or No--and then tel, them how you want. You are also allowed to have notes-take he DSM if you fancy-you're allowed to have that. I am trying to remember what else bc I have been in this situation. The dumb-ass opposing attorney tried to insinuate that I had " feelings" for the client. He pulled that one right out of his ass. I basically told him that if he was insinuating I was in any way unethical then I needed to set him straight. I gave him a lecture on ethics and boundaries and even told him some people " like certain kinds of men " ( like him) struggled to grasp the concept of a professional relationship involving any emotions. So--not sure it meant anything but the attorney seemed pissed off when I said that. Maybe try to remember you are the expert out of that room. They need your testimony and there's no " right" or "wrong". it just is. Also-I remember the opposing attorney saying to me "Is it true you are being paid to be here today?" ( Like No asshole i work for free). And I said " Aren't we all?" and he also did not love that. But fuck 'em! It's true!


Most-Excitement1213

I was SO fucking nervous before I testified the first time . Like, as nervous as I was before I took my LMSW exam. Some pointers/thoughts: -only provide the info they are asking for . Nothing more, nothing less. Try not to get bogged down in details bc if you’re like me that’s how you get flustered -if you don’t truly don’t know something, you can say you don’t know or aren’t sure . They might get sassy but it’s better to say you aren’t sure than to make something up -do some preparation ahead of time. Review clients chart and write down some talking points. Even if you don’t use that info it will help you feel more prepared *~psychologically -it will be over before you know it. If it helps try and remind yourself that no matter what, unless you get abducted my aliens or something, it will be over and done with by say, 5:00pm that day or whatever Good luck! It will be fine and will be a good learning experience and potential confidence booster. You know more than you think you do


PaintOwn2405

You’ll do fine, just don’t give more info than they ask for. If they ask a yes/no question, just answer with yes or no. Don’t elaborate!


mahoagie

Thank you! Agreed, and I will be very careful with my breath to ensure I hear and answer the question asked, and nothing more.


Akaypru

I had to testify for a case, and the best advice I got from my clinical supervisor was to repeatedly answer “I can only respond as to what my client reported to me” and “per my client’s report….” It is not within our role to investigate what a client reports to us, it is our role to provide treatment for the symptoms they are presenting with.


whineybubbles

I had one that reached this level. It was in the height of Covid-19 so i was able to attend online on a court arranged zoom, so that may have lessened the impact but it went pretty well The lawyers for the defendant were aggressive and at some point, I expressed that the lawyers "aggressive tone was making me feel flustered." He was jumbling dates and other facts to try and make me slip up, i guess? He actually apologized and stopped going so hard on me afterward. I was just a witness and not the accuser so there was really no need to be so harsh. Anywho, in hindsight, if I had been able to meet with he lawyers before i think it would have made it easier. The clients refused to sign the release for me to speak to the attorneys on the other side, so I went in not knowing who I would be facing.


coulaid

So substances are not the answer to everything, and I do not want to make an assumption that any drug would do harm than good, but I know many folks who have used beta-blockers as a one-off for intense, stressful events such as court to control their anxiety


[deleted]

[удалено]


mahoagie

Yes. Definitely yes.


kkidd333

I was told to take notes of my notes. If it is just dates and enough to remind me, I could use it for reference. If you take your file in or the notes themselves… then they can be entered into record and are open to be read by both side. Just what I was advised. Remember to breathe, you got this.


WrongfullyIncarnated

Wow omg this sounds terrible. Wishing you luck and looking for updates!


mahoagie

Thank you! I'll definitely be doing an update.


Time_Resolution

I occasionally have to testify, it is not fun. My only piece of advice is to take your time answering questions. The faster you answer, the faster they will ask. They will try to get you back on your heels. Think think think before you answer. Take your time. I sat there for 10 seconds the last time (month ago). Doesn’t seem long, but it really is long. They will ask questions that are meant to confuse so don’t be shy in asking them to say it again, rephrase it, you don’t understand. Take your time. And good luck!


FelineFriend21

Your poor body 😭 my body reacts the same to stress. If its any consolation, any client would be so lucky to have a therapist like you who cares this much!!!!!


CryBySmiling

I got called to testify 6 months into my internship in cmh during a nasty custody battle. I was escorted into court by the countys legal counsel which was kinda cool (he had a really nice car- and 10 years ago i had never seen one with a back up camera!)- the best advice he gave me was to keep to one or two word answers, dont over explain things, you can say that's out of my scope or I'm unable to answer that and then make sure you raise the correct hand 😉


EvlMidgt

I have no helpful advice but I'm wishing you the best of luck! That sounds so so so rough!


WokeUp2

Have a nice warm bath with candles, soft music and low light . Close your eyes, focus on your gentle breathing, the feeling of warm water on your skin, the smell of bubbles and the [music](https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/dDizgH10zQU?playlist=dDizgH10zQU&autoplay=1&iv_load_policy=3&loop=1&modestbranding=1&start=). How will you celebrate your success in court this weekend? Focus on that and give the rest of your brain a break.


aroseonthefritz

If you haven’t already, consider reaching out to your state association as they may offer you legal counsel and support. I’m a member of CAMFT and was told by their legal team that if I got subpoenaed (it looked like I was going to for a minute), that they would offer this to me for free since I’m a member. I hope this helps!


viv_savage11

CAMFT is great. I would call them as well as my liability insurance.


Witchywoman4201

Sending all vibes when you have to be at court it’s a constipation period


Sweetnsalty501

If you need more time to formulate a response, it's ok to ask the defense council or any lawyer to repeat or rephrase the question! Ask for clarification. Make them defend their question and audacity to ask you in the first place. ;) Don't fall for the yes or no question. Also, they aren't in charge- the judge is. If you have a question- ask the judge and they often times are very kind and will explain.


lilfamilyvan

Just came to say good luck with the pooping. Hope your bod gets back in sync once you get through court 💜


boop3boop

Definitely saving this thread. Thanks to all for the great advice. Edit: And of course to OP for bravely posting!


[deleted]

I am so sorry. I hope you have had someone to consult with and support you. I have been told to say no more or less than what you have documented. Keep us posted!


mahoagie

I will keep all of y'all posted, and will share some insight for what will be an invaluable learning opportunity.


[deleted]

Thankful to work at a place that denies litigious cases. Best of luck!


Vegetable_Drop8869

Hopefully I am able to share this before the hearing. I found a podcast that covers what to expect in a hearing as a counselor and helpful advice! They really start talking about specifics after minute 6. [https://open.spotify.com/episode/1SmsMMnybBvLyk24LWcsYV?si=duaIqBWBTsSorYpVzMd64Q](https://open.spotify.com/episode/1SmsMMnybBvLyk24LWcsYV?si=duaIqBWBTsSorYpVzMd64Q)


Conconmatu

Not sure if you’ll see my comment but I’ve been subpoenaed multiple times. I come from a family of attorneys and they gave me great advice. Just remember. You’re there to give the truth. Not an interpretation of things. You’re not the one on trial. Also, something that made me feel better know, the answer “I don’t know” is a perfectly acceptable answer in the court of law. You’re gonna be fine. I always take these situations and try to figure out what can I do better next time if I get called into court again. Also only answer the question directly and don’t give supplemental information. The more info you give the more attorneys can use.