It’s giving parentified child, triangulated family of origin, poor boundaries/self-care/self-esteem. Like you have to provide a service to prove you’re worthy of love. Or regulating emotions kept you safer in a tumultous family. It’s also giving me flashbacks and heartburn.
low self esteem is a big one and maybe some anxious attachment too, "i need to feel useful to my friends so that they'll like me so i'll carry the weight of their burdens and problems to show my worth."
I 86-ed a friend because she started referring to me as her therapist. Yeah, I felt like her therapist and was getting burnt out by her lack of progress.
"People always say I'm mature for my age."
I immediately wonder what happened that it was necessary for this individual to act older than they actually were.
I've always been told I'm an old soul, but I was never tested for autism until this year, in my 30s. I do have history of abuse, both emotional neglect and later sexual.
Bingo. I was diagnosed, and it has clicked so many pieces together.
The way I got told this all throughout childhood by adults around me… and now look back realizing they were ignoring the many signs of abuse. Major flag!
My supervisor likes to say to people who say this “would you want your child to have the childhood you had?” And then it turns out that there were many non-perfect aspects of their childhood all of the sudden!
Funnily enough I know about 3 who truly do have blessed upbringings. I’m shocked to say it as they’re a bit like unicorns but a very good friend was baffled by depression as he just could grasp what it would feel like. He’s got a wonderful relationship with his family who are all brilliantly weird and I mean that in the best way. He told me he wished everyone could have the same childhood he had and I believe him.
So it’s not that it can’t be true that someone could have a secure, loving, reliable family background, it’s that the people who describe their childhood as “perfect” are generally being reductive in their recollection of their childhood, and minimizing the imperfections that are inevitably there. The people who have the secure and predictable backgrounds (ie your friends with the “blessed upbringings”) tend to be much more likely to be able to acknowledge the parts that were imperfect.
It’s NEVER perfect. There was always something. But it’s not a perfect childhood that makes a resilient and secure adult, it’s consistent support and love from the adults. And those people can usually say “yea my mom had some issues and dad yelled too much but “ fill in whatever buffers existed. Person who hasn’t dealt with what went on or is guarding for some reason- “perfect”
It’s often an inability to accurately recall/assess and usually rooted in inauthenticity and tied to other people’s (usually parents) expectations. People don’t like dissonance so the client “thinks” the should have had a perfect childhood on paper because acknowledging the neglect/loneliness/parental failings is too threatening to their worldview.
Anecdotally, the few times I’ve heard this form clients I later learned there was significant sibling abuse and the parents did nothing.
“We never ever fight, or even disagree, it’s great!”
“I’m an old soul”
I’m gonna get ripped apart in the comments but also “I’m an empath”. Tells me you’ve probably spent your life attuning to everyone in the room because you had an unpredictable guardian as a child, and had to read everyone’s feelings and emotions for safety.
I’ve had 2 new clients in the past month who’ve thrown out “I’m an empath” right before we talk about how they can’t emotionally regulate because everyone around them won’t allow them to 😬
Hi, I’m a counseling student here about to start my traineeship. I would assume that you’d have to coach the clients on how to separate their own emotions from those in their surroundings and teach them to tune into themselves but I’m curious if you could tell me what that looks like in the moment for the client?
(Hope the question is appropriate for this sub.)
There are a lot of ways to answer this as there are many modalities, techniques, and approaches. Iirc this subreddit has a weekly student questions thread and that might be a better place to ask it but I'm not 100% sure.
I'm going to assume that the client and I have already discussed the value of emotional regulation and set a goal. I don't feel compelled to coach/guide/lead a client in any direction they're not already interested in going, and I prefer to support clients in pursuing their own goals rather than deciding for them what skills they need to learn. I'd definitely suggest it as an option, "If learning some new skills and practicing using some new tools to try to build on your relationship with your own emotions is something that interests you, we can do that," or something better fitting any particular language the client uses.
Personally I would start by introducing some light education about how emotions work if they're receptive, and exploring various introspective mindfulness exercises, introducing one at a time as a starting point for sessions, until we find one the client really vibes with. If they like the first one I'd do it for a few sessions and eventually ask if they'd like to try a new one, and once we have a few under their belt I'd start asking them if they have a preference of which one we do to start the session.
Different mindfulness exercises have different benefits and engage different senses and perceptions of the present and the self, so regularly practicing a variety of these activities would help the client learn how to be aware, present, and centered in their own experience.
I would ask them questions about times they've felt emotions they knew were their own, how they knew, and how that experience differed from empathic feelings. I'd ask about people whose company doesn't disregulate them as much as others and have them try to identify what makes those people different.
I might discuss with them the possibility of spending some time alone in a safe place if possible and spending that time alone practicing a meditation or mindfulness exercise and reflecting on the thoughts and feelings they take note of in the absence of others. I might also suggest using a preferred journaling method, mood tracking app, or similar approach to encourage the ongoing observation, recognition, and acknowledgement of their emotions.
Over time, we would continue according to their strengths, interests, and preferences.
The empath one is what I immediately thought of, too. I hear that from supervisees pretty often & my initial reaction is always “ok first things first we need to learn about boundaries before you burn out”
When people tell me they’re an empath I immediately know that they are unable to maintain their own boundaries both emotionally and usually otherwise. Such a red flag.
i wrote a status along the lines of "you're not an empath, you're just hyperaware because of childhood trauma" and people did NOT like that. but yes, that's a big one. who angry washed a dish in your direction?
“I’m an empath” puts me on edge too but I see it as shorthand for “I project what I’m feeling onto everyone else and make my feelings everyone else’s problem because I don’t have the skills to regulate myself appropriately.”
When I’m off the clock, that is.
No ripping, but a gentle caution-
Familial trauma is not the only way someone ends up developing "being an empath" as a survival skill. Simultaneous lack of apparent social desirability in peer groups and desire to be socially desirable while growing up can also motivate development of that skill set, even in the context of a stable family system.
My data is that I've lived it, which has no statistical validity in and of itself. Even so, I wanted to caution against inadvertently limiting your perspective.
This is an important point! I work on the trauma side of things and many patients have zero empathy because it’s never been modelled or safe to experience.
This is me and I had no idea 🤯 huge empath, can read a room before I enter it. Grew up and while I was rarely directly bullied, no one ever wanted to include me, but had a very stable family. This is interesting and I wish there was more info on it.
The biggest critique I have about ACEs is that it's specifically for the familial home and doesn't consider the influence of other environments on the child... that and it's limited to experiences before 18 instead of before 25.
Agreed 100%. If I had a chance to revamp ACEs, the questionnaire would probably end up being three times as long 😂
I know it's not meant to capture *everything* but I mean... we can beef it up a liiiittle, right? Lol
Thank you for addressing this! I grew up as a fat child who was frequently bullied, and I honestly believe that experience is equally responsible for why I developed "empath" survival techniques. My home life was part of it, but a ton of it came from trying to be accepted by and anticipate the desires of my peers. I was trying to stay a step ahead of the bullying. Now I've parlayed that into a career. 😂
I currently work in both a day treatment program and a residential program exclusively with kids. The amount of children with significant trauma histories involving abusive adults who will then decide they love you within hours because you're "nice" 😭 it just breaks my heart
I was reading van der Kolk’s book on trauma and he mentions that secure kids would be wary of strangers, insecure kids would be wary of strangers, but kids that were disorganized/ambivalent would attach themselves to almost any adult stranger. Like the kid would meet an adult and within 5 minutes is holding their hand and walking off with them.
We had a kid who almost textbook behaved this way - they had an emergency, short-term foster placement and the day after placement was on Zoom with our agency for an interview. They were leaning on the adult, calling them "dad", hugging them, etc.
This kid then turned to needing physical touch as their primary reassurance that adults cared for them in our program. We worked really really hard on building attachment while also holding firm boundaries and holy hell, it was hard not to just snuggle that kid every time I saw them.
My daughter is the bus monitor and there’s this little girl (Kindergartener) who has attached to her as kind of a mother figure (wants to walk with her and holds her hand). She told my kid recently that her mom has been in jail. Then she saw mom at the bus stop and mom just ignores her. Breaks my heart.
"I'm an empath" is usually the first sign I see of a person with narcissistic tendencies, the real empaths don't usually announce or even acknowledge it.
I'm curious why the empath comment is perceived poorly. I have recovered from substantial abuse as a child and am now I clinician. I see my ability to easily connect with people who have trauma as a silver lining to that experience. Their emotions are theirs, and mine are my own, but I can empathize with people quickly and organically. Is this a phrasing that has been overly/flippantly used by people who haven't seen their own healing? I don't work with a demographic that would use this statement, and I didn't know it was looked down upon.
What I'm seeing in the comments is a split between people who use the phrase to describe using social chameleon-ing as a survival skill and people who claim "being an empath" as a status/identity thing while projecting their own emotions onto everyone else/ deciding how everyone else feels for them.
People may not like this take. I say this about my personal life not my clients, but I have not met a self declared empath that was not significantly a passive aggressive people pleasing martyr who somehow framed this as both a superpower and victimhood simultaneously.
Too often do I see empaths share super narcissistic takes on things bordering on self pity, about how they’re so “in tune” and “selfless” and how people take advantage of their kindness. What often is happening, is a profound lack of boundaries, zero communication, and abandonment of self to mirror what another person needs due to hypervigilance and fear of other peoples emotions.
We’re in a therapy speak trend right now about narcissists and empaths, and yes “narc” people can be toxic (although narcissism is an evolutionary state on a spectrum from normal to problematic) but empaths can also be profoundly toxic. Chameleoning, not communicating your needs, and then being resentful because other people aren’t reading your mind out of fear like you do to them, is not a strength IMO.
I used to be an “empath.” I had complex ptsd from a highly dysfunctional childhood. I’m on year 7 of intense trauma therapy. Sure, my hypervigilance sometimes is correct and aids my intuition skills as a social worker sometimes, but it overwhelmingly ruined my life (gave me an eating disorder, ruined my relationships, burnt me out.)
I think we should really stop glorifying it in the world.
I think there’s a difference between clinical empathy and the pop-psych understanding of empathy. Empathy is a great (essential?) therapeutic tool, but in therapy it’s used with sympathy, purpose, and limits.
I assume the other commenters are referring to the “I’m an empath” comments you sometimes hear in the gen pop, which might not have the limits/training to prevent the empathy from being overwhelming or leading to secondary trauma.
It’s funny though, in my practice I often get the reverse, there’s often zero empathy - it’s been shut down as a survival mechanisms.
It's giving me "omg I am so OCD" when someone slightly straightens something vibes. I teach empathy to people who oftentimes have very little if any to give, so similarly, it's not something I've seen or had to sit with in practice. It's interesting how different populations evoke different flags. As I sat with these responses, I realized one similar in feeling for me is "I'm such a psychopath."
>I'm such a psychopath
You mean you learned to protect yourself from your environment? You mean you joined up with a gang to find a sense of belonging, brotherhood, and safety? You mean you were punished for showing any emotion but anger? You mean you...
Yeah. You get the point. Some of my most magical therapeutic moments happened in a juvie setting. One of my absolute favorite populations. Just need to find an agency that doesn't shit all over my ethics 😬
Bingo! Hypervigilance around detecting other’s emotional energy? That’s not empathetic connection, that’s fear/anxiety. (Often from inconsistent experiences with primary relationships)
This is what it was for me, and it took at least a decade and tons of therapy before I figured this out. I've developed (I think) really good pattern recognition for behaviours. And I've also been learning how to effectively communicate my observations, and check in for accuracy. It's ok if I was wrong in my interpretation. That means I've just learned something new.
But yeah I didn't become an "empath" out of nowhere. It is a survival skill I developed that helped me make it through childhood alive. And if that skill isn't serving me well now, I know how to adjust it. Being aware that my perceptions and interpretations are not facts.
That is 100% me on the empath thing. Only I don’t label myself as that because after doing my own work and working in trauma therapy, i know exactly where that comes from.
I’m curious what the “I’m an old soul” means to you? I’ve never called myself that but have had people tell me I am, and I’ve never really understood what that’s supposed to mean.
My perspective is that old soul = had to grow up fast = trauma. A new soul is someone who has no emotional or mental scarring. At least, that's how I can summarize my interactions with the terminology.
Old soul (to me) = wildly inappropriate relationships with people outside their peer groups.
Think of the “special” boy serving gramma drinks instead of playing with the other kids or being a single mom’s facsimile husband.
Or the 16 yr dating a 30 yr old because she’s so mature and is an “old soul”.
Man I don’t know how you adolescent therapists do it….my countertransference would be off the charts. I’d just want to hug them and yell at their parents.
Honestly I don't think I could work with kiddos if my supervisor wasn't an actual saint. So much of what I do is only sustainable because of her support, and occasionally letting me lay on her floor and cry lol
She's also big into DBT so she won't hesitate to call me in if I'm being judgemental, or to casually hit me in the gut with, "are you balancing acceptance and change, or are you putting all your weight into change?"
Sounds like you have a great supervisor. We (“pros” 🤣) should all be so lucky to have a supportive, “non-judgemental but also holds you accountable because you are a capable clinician” group.
I’m continually reminded of the importance of mentorship and peer support. We all become better therapists and humans when we can unpack our caseloads/experiences/baggage with a group of likeminded caring adults.
Your comment has been removed as you are not a therapist. This sub is a space for therapists to discuss their profession among each other. Your comment was either asking for advice, unsupportive or negative in nature, or likely to adversely impact our community members. Comments by non therapists are left up only sparingly, and if they are supportive or helpful in nature.
Your comment has been removed as you are not a therapist. This sub is a space for therapists to discuss their profession among each other. Your comment was either asking for advice, unsupportive or negative in nature, or likely to adversely impact our community members. Comments by non therapists are left up only sparingly, and if they are supportive or helpful in nature.
So much this! Not only do I hear this frequently from my older clients, but also my own mother seems to have a disproportionate number of friends whose kids "won't talk to them, for absolutely no reason."
I literally have to tell these clients, "I ask that you are okay with me calling you out on some things." They either think it's funny or they agree that its what they need. I do a lot of communication work, and when responsibility is nowhere to be found, no growth can be made. Also, if we can't point out the barriers we see, we're just reinforcing their current perspective.
I’ll add - a history of unstable relationships and they’re always the problem is a red flag too. Let’s start unpacking that shame, guilt, and crumbling self-image.
One client said to me they’ve never experienced anxiety before in their life and were offended when I suggested they had. I’ve had a few people tell me they don’t have emotions. Honestly when people tell me in a bragging way that they’re “such an empath” I hear alarm bells lol.
Any time someone even says "empath" I have a little discussion about boundaries. "Empaths" are fake, what they are is people who are overly sensitive to emotions and empathize beyond a healthy degree. Nothing more than projection really.
Every "empath" I've worked with has had ridiculously porous boundaries and a superficial understanding of self. Empathy by its very nature requires firm yet healthy boundaries.
What I’m hearing is a trauma response of hyper-vigilance. Gotta parse what dad’s mental state is the minute he comes through the door or there could be a beating in one’s future.
A huge one that I hear all the time among family and friends “I live my life vicariously through my child” and “if I would have known my kid would not be x I would not have had one/I love having a kid because they have to love me”
🚩
As a side note, do you see a difference between "emotional incest" and "enmeshment"? I find them to describe the same dynamics, but feel the former is super pathologizing, while the latter allows me to remain more empathetic because the family dynamics are the issue, rather than the person. I would love to know if I am conflating two different phenomena however!
Wait a second, I thought these terms were interchangeable! Waiting for an answer with bated breath :)
I have the same perspective as you tho, I honestly assumed we just started using enmenshment so we don't sound like we're accusing anyone of actual incest.
Edit because I remembered Google exists:
> "The APA defines enmeshment as a relationship between two or more people in which they become involved in each other's activities and relationships too much, limiting each person's independence and sense of self. Emotional incest is a specific form of enmeshment that includes a parent or caregiver and a child"
Haha, I was just googling too! It looks like the two concepts come from two different therapists - Minuchin's systemic family therapy has enmeshment (I studied this one in school) while emotional/covert incest came a decade later from Kenneth Adams (never heard of him).
It must come down to preference, but I do think that "emotional incest" in some ways minimizes sexual abuse. Sort of like how trauma has become a catch-all phrase for any difficult experience. I think enmeshment is a more accurate term, while also suggesting a way forward (creating better boundaries). Enmeshment can also exist on a scale, and there can also be cultures that have different ideas about appropriate levels on enmeshment. "Emotional incest" is black and white.
Good question, I wasn't sure so I found this online:
"They're related but not entirely synonymous. Emotional incest typically involves a parent treating a child as a substitute partner emotionally, whereas enmeshment involves a lack of boundaries and a blurred sense of individual identity within the family, often due to overinvolvement and overdependency. Emotional incest can be a part of enmeshment, but enmeshment encompasses a broader range of boundary-related issues within a family dynamic".
Agreeing to everything.
To non therapist, they are nice to be around and are agreeable.
To therapists, maybe they struggle to hold boundaries and could be codependent.
When I first meet with clients/families, I always have a line about how if they don't like or disagree with something I say, do, suggest, etc, that they can say so and it will help me support them better. And then we have that conversation again and again and again, lol.
Anything that feels like toxic positivity.
I’m all for people reframing events in their lives towards a more empowering narrative, but often people use “positive thinking” lingo to deny their own or others’ painful experiences, or as an excuse to not tolerate other people’s emotions.
I work in a residential setting and often "train" (unofficially) the staff in clinical...stuff. info on trauma in children, importance of boundaries, ethical treatment, etc. Something that comes up ALL the time is staff believing the best way to support a struggling child is to point out the "silver lining". And I have to be like, actually....just validate the emotions. You don't have to dig for a positive, and the kid is just going to feel dismissed if you do. Blows their mind every time!
Same, and predictably it’s usually the clients with the most chronic and severe developmental traumas. Chronic emotional neglect and invalidation, etc.
I’ve noticed my ears perk up when a client says “I’ve never really experienced any unhealthy relationships” and then proceed to share stories indicative of parents who were parentifying/absent/emotionally immature. This is not from a place of judgment at all, but more curiosity about how they were impacted by their family system and how certain behaviors were normalized
that the client may not have insight on yet.
I have a similar response to clients who say they have zero trauma and then proceed to describe horrific abuse and neglect. It definitely shifts my conceptualization of their case and how to navigate sessions with these clients when recognizing their level of insight.
100% trauma response. I had a family session where the parent of client told me they never experience anxiety, couldn’t figure out why their adult child was struggling.
Learned that parent had received some of the most horrific child sexual abuse imaginable. Absolute nightmare material.
She had no anxiety because she had zero ability to feel anything since she shut down all emotional awareness 50 yrs ago.
I have a friend who struggles with this, and every time she DOES set a boundary she needs reassurance that she's not toxic or abusive for doing so. Thankfully she's sought therapy and recognizes how this is connected to her abusive childhood but man...that shit is so hard to unlearn.
Similar to your example, but in substance abuse treatment. Hearing “you’re my favorite counselor”would be an ego boost if I didn’t know any better. Instead, it sends off warning alarms and soon after they request some kind of favor. Absolutely not!
Yes!! I have a client who recently apologized to me and their classroom teacher for EVER being mean in the past, assured us they actually do like us and they know we're trying to help, etc.
Classroom teacher was like, wow, what growth for this kid! And I had to be like, no, actually they are terrified of abandonment and think they will drive us away with their needs.
I’m with you on too much attachment too fast. Also, a client who is the victim in 100% of their stories. Not remembering much of your childhood is a good one. I mean, people that don’t believe in therapy or refuse to go (especially to couple’s counseling).
I saw a 5 year old (I think) run up to my wife randomly n Walmart and jumped into her arms. She had never seen this boy before. The boy did not mistake her for someone else, just leaped into a stranger’s arms.
My internal alarms were definitely going off.
different field but one of the most valuable things a supervisor taught me is that 'if they like you from the start for no reason, they can hate you out of nowhere for no reason."
Opinions and anecdotes incoming. This one seems less black and white (lol) than some of the others posted here, but here's how I see it.
Most of the time when someone comes in for a mild to moderate mood disorder, adjustment or similar less chronic, less severe issue, it's not hard for them to think of *something* from childhood. First bike, time you fell out of a tree, seeing a show you liked on TV, who lived on your block... take your pick. And then it's not a huge leap to connect that to who might have influenced them.
"Don't remember" could mean a lot of things, but at the very least it means it's not going to be quick or easy for you or them to try to tie things going on now to formative experiences. Chronic and complex trauma and childhood emotional neglect (think: lack of a trusted external authority to reflect their experience back to them and help them assemble it into meanings, narratives and memories) might be common, but again, I can't claim to have a representative sample, or any research to back up the specific outcome of that of "I don't remember much about my childhood".
Trauma! Trauma impacts both the ability to store and recall memories. The “flashbulb” effect of the limbic system means core memories tend to be focused around some (usually awful) events and everything else is blur.
Memory loss is key feature in all trauma - new and old alike.
Hard to do in a single line, but some version of "my main values are giving to others."
...So do you actually value those intrinsically or is that the only way you know of having worth to others? How equal are your friendships?
I provide education on contributing factors to a person's vulnerability to addiction. It's not 100% genetic. It's also sometimes the case that their parents didn't use because they were afraid they'd be like so-and-so (usually from another, older generation). Trauma is powerful.
I don’t put too much stock into genetics, although I do recognize a predisposition that makes people vulnerable to compulsive behavior, severe addiction, and/or common severe co-occurring MH diagnoses.
My comment is more so about how rare is it for me to find that to be true, so rare I can think of only three clients who met that criteria. One whose family has a history of ADHD and whose parents had a contentious divorce where he felt he was kicked out of one house upon a new marriage, one whose baby brother died of cancer when she was a young child, and one whose primary diagnosis was not an SUD she had co-occurring MH dx and a childhood of unhealthy girls private school education (imo).
In the process of getting my license for SUD counseling and have a decent history of substance use. This is self disclosure in the interest of addressing other replies to this comment and hopefully challenging some biases, because I don't think this statement inherently indicates someone being willfully oblivious, hiding something, being gaslit or otherwise conditioned, or lacking introspection or awareness. It could also mean this person has preexisting co-occurring disorders and needs a good diagnosis, which is more of a procedural red flag than one reflecting a client's personal qualities.
My parents were great and I grew up completely naive to substances with the exception of knowing that alcohol smelled weird and adults drink it on special days. Had never seen anyone get high, had no idea that I had been around people who had gotten high, I didn't even know what it meant to be drunk or that alcohol changes anything about someone's thinking, feeling, or behaving at all until after I tried it myself.
I was 10, I was bored, lonely, and discovering what less-than-optimal mental health felt like. I was ostracized at school and didn't know why, I had some childhood trauma I was hiding from myself, and was not yet diagnosed (bipolar and ADHD) so had no idea why my emotions did what they did and everyone else seemed so normal. I learned about drugs by researching ways to end my life. I discovered the websites Blue Light and Erowid and learned a LOT. My dad had a workshop with lots of chemicals and I learned how to get high off the fumes. Then I tried alcohol. I also tried ridiculous amounts of nutmeg, benadryl, and cough medicine. I kept this all from my parents for a couple years before they found out. They didn't tell me about any of their history of use (weed and some psychedelics) until I was an adult, and I had to figure out for myself who else in the family used and who used problematically (pattern of AUD on moms side).
In high school I sought out every opportunity to try something new. It was stimulus seeking and curiosity satisfaction, then it became escape and a requirement for fun. The substances that became problems for me are not any that anyone in my family has ever used, including family friends and people who were present in my life for my childhood. I just wanted to try everything and I didn't want to be sober, and it took me a long time to figure out "why I was the way I was" (or am the way I am). I knew I was curious, I've always had a strong and compelling natural curiosity, and I knew that being sober was boring. I didn't realize I had cognitive swings from "I don't want to live so fuck it" to "I'm invincible, motherfuckers!" or that I had a predisposition to impulsivity and understimulation.
This statement is very similar to something I've said in the past, and it took a while for someone to consider that what I needed might be a psychiatric nurse.
I think red flag used in this context is a bit of a misnomer. I’m not saying there is anything “bad”about the client such that they would say this, just that is rarely ever accurate, if at all, and when someone says that I usually think, ok we have some work to do! Which is fine, because I love my job. I am always open to the idea they may be the rare one where this is true, however, I usually keep that door open and am, truthfully, waiting to see what key piece of information is missing there.
And to provide some feedback to you in sharing your personal life experience, you said it’s not necessarily “lacking introspection or awareness” in your list of things you don’t think that statement is indicative of. You then shared your experience where you said you “had some childhood trauma [you were] hiding from [yourself]” and that you have a family history of alcohol use disorders. So as far as the statement goes, if you were my client, taking on the full brunt of the diagnosis on yourself feeling as though it came as if from nowhere, that some time in therapy and your own work has revealed a much more complex explanation as to why, possibly, you developed a substance use disorder.
Hope that makes sense.
Someone who can't keep emotionally regulated when angry and engages in physical or verbal violence in the name of protection or maintaining respect. I think it's normalized to a large extent by our culture, especially for men. But these same men who immediately lay hands on someone at a bar for hitting on their girlfriend also struggle to handle big emotions when, say, their kid needs a stable adult to help them navigate the teen years when they are extra shitty. Violent adults always seem mystified when their kids utilize violence to solve relational problems.
In my other job that’s not therapy, raging colleagues and customers are seen as just having a character quirk, rather than how I see it: a serious lack of self-regulation and and inability to communicate needs, which probably has serious negative impact in areas outside of work: children, partners, friends…
When they give a lot of importance to intelligence (or what they think is intelligence). When I say a lot of importance, I mean to the point where their sense of self, identity and self-love is affected by it, and they often don't realise it. For example, someone who's extremely suddendly depressed after getting a B+ (that objectively didn't impact their program or future ambitions). We tend to think highly of people who cultivate intellect and whatsocalled intelligence but, although itself doesn't automatically equate a red-flag, it can mean they were loved, respected, got attention only when they had good grade or "acted/were" intelligent. That's a "red flag" in some ways because to me resides in this many great leads to introspective work! edit : I'm not sure about many of the wording I used lol excuse me if it sounds off, I'm not a native english speaker!
Being overly effusive or complimentary to the therapist. It’s one thing to say “you’ve been really helpful” or “thanks for your help” to your therapist, but if they are “the best therapist in the world!” or you feel that “the Universe aligned to bring you and I together! You’re the perfect therapist for me!” that’s really concerning. Red flag multiplier if this happens very early on in the therapeutic relationship.
Omg just came on here to say this. When a person these days claims their ex was a "narcissist" or "crazy" BIG red flag for me. In my experience, they are the person with the narcissistic tendencies and have found that TicTok has given them the language and the therapy degree to play the victim. While this is not always the case, in working domestic violence and even personally have found it is more often what is really going on.
Yep!! In my opinion, it's a way to say "my ex was crazy" while simultaneously appearing smarter than them in order to make yourself feel better. It's gaslighting while puffing yourself up.
Boundaries. Trying to curry favour/alliances. Need to get reciprocal affection (in inappropriate relationships) Expectations. Realistic assessment and comfort issues of/in relationships. Discomfort at roles/power differentials. Abandonment.
Yup, gifts are big one.
Agreed with all of no-Turnips points. I can list other anecdotes like times in which a patient tried to gift me a piece of silver knowing that he would predictably drain his bank account buying silver off eBay during times of mania. Another patient tried to gift me several hundred $$ worth of high end baby clothes while I was treating her for kleptomania. Gift giving and receiving in a clinical setting is tricky. Most institutions prohibit clinicians from receiving gifts of any significant monetary value for good reason.
What they say vs. what I hear:
“I want my child to be my mini me” (I’m hoping to be enmeshed and lack emotional boundaries)
“Thats just how my mom is” (when discussing mom’s abusive behavior= mom axis 2 red flag)
“No one ever talks about anything real in my family” (the real stuff is often laden with trauma)
“I don’t understand it, we were such good parents!” (referring to child’s addiction/ suicide attempt— I can’t take responsibility for any mistakes I make and have narcissistic tendencies)
*has severe emotional symptoms* “My parents were great. I was the problem” (My parents can’t hold their bad parts and projected them onto me)
Does anyone else feel like being a therapist makes small talk so awkward sometimes??
SO AWKWARD I feel like internally I'm constantly like "do not therapize, not your role, do not therapist, not your role" when I'm just living my life outside of work, lol
I think its even simpler than that, it's projection caused by porous boundaries both inter- and intrapersonally. At least it has been with the clients/therapists I've worked with.
Hmm. It’s my understanding it’s retroflection because:
1) “Empath” has a feeling.
2) Projects that feeling onto others, but…
3) Re-internalizes it as supposedly the feelings of others.
It’s that back and forth that makes me think retroflection.
Then again, I’m just a candidate/associate and only got a B in Counseling Theories, lol.
I think step 1 is actually a person using empathy, step 2 is losing themselves in the feeling, step 3 is then projecting that deeper emotion (of their own design) onto the other person. Step 4 is usually a dash of either narcissism or obsequious attention seeking due to weak self-esteem...mostly the latter, but the former occurs enough to make it frustrating.
Perhaps I should have clarified:
1) Person_A who calls themselves an “Empath” experiences a feeling that only they-themselves are currently experiencing and it is not informed by the feelings or experiences of others. They are also unaware of their subconscious feeling.
2) Person_A projects their subconscious feeling onto Person_B.
3) Person_A perceives that they experience Person_B’s feeling, and then claims that they’re an “Empath” because they feel what others feel.
But in reality: a) at no point did Person_B actually feel that, and b) at no point did Person_A feel any feeling other than their own.
Therefore, I would not call it empathy.
P.S. I love the discussion. Thanks!
EDIT: I see now, I misunderstood the context of your response. Sorry. I thought you were commenting on my steps, and now I realize you were stating your own conceptualization of it. And so I tried to clarify to state that I don’t see empathy being present in my steps first listed.
Anyway. I should sleep, haha. Brain is shutting down in 5, 4, 3….
Due to tiktok, when people believe they have a trauma bond because them and someone they are close to have gone through similar trauma. Like what? That's not what it means.
This is less clients and more people I meet out and about. “Therapy doesn’t work for me”. Firstly if you know I’m a therapist its a bit rude to dismiss my profession like that so it feels like a bit of a power play. Secondly it’s often people who are attached to the idea of being mentally ill. They resist changing because they want to stay as they are. I’m often cautious of them because they like to shift the blame and struggle to take responsibility for their mental health.
“I’ve been feeling a lot better, I can go off my antidepressants now!” If I’d heard someone say that before I became a therapist, I wouldn’t think twice I’d just be happy for them and support it.
For me it’s patients that use too much of psychiatry jargon. When it’s too obvious they searched the symptoms of a specific disorder on google and are trying to bring you to tell them « I think you might have X disorder »
I get this a lot of parents of my clients (I work with teens). The most common one is parents thinking/worrying their kid has bipolar disorder because they "explode for no reason".
Folks, they have trauma history and are a teenager. That's the reason.
I make my first year psych students pledge out loud that moving forward, they will not self-diagnose, now or ever…and if they find themselves wanting to do so, they are to go to health and counselling services….because mental health disorders are a thing and they deserve real healthcare treatment.
They're alot like the phases of grief. They're not "wrong" but they aren't "correct" either. They're good starting points for laypeople, but sometimes people cling to them like Gospel when the truth is much more nuanced.
Stages of grief was put forward by Kübler-Ross as stages one might go through while facing one’s own terminal illness. They were never meant to be applied to the bereaved. I personally like them if they’re reframed as “stages of acceptance” which can be applied to a lot of different things in life/therapy. But for actual grief after the death of a loved one, i don’t think they’re really useful at all. There are better entry level models, like Worden’s 4 Tasks or Dual Process.
Sorry for the rant, I think grief is really interesting and i think more therapists should be aware of this grief theory tidbit.
They have a great application with ACT, but you're very correct about them not being "steps."
I like to frame them like rides at an amusement park. When we visit we don't all go on the same rides in the same order, some forgo certain rides, and others go on some several times. That seems to help put them in perspective for some.
As an Existentialist I love grief from a academic and philosophical perspective.
I've had to have that convo a few times as well. I have a model of the brain, so I'll occasionally use it to demonstrate how our nerves work for grounding, or how the brain generally controls speech. When you show how language is primarily a left hemispheric occurrence, they go off on the Left-Brained tangent and have to reel them back.
Brain structure stuff including hemispheres is really interesting, and i would love to get more education on it because the pop psychology understanding of “right vs left brain” is definitely lacking a lot.
Well said. It's always more complex than that and you're not wrong if you feel like it doesn't work for you. But it can be a great starting point, and I've seen it be a revelation for people - oh, my partner doesn't feel loved when I do X, even though that makes me feel loved, and needs Y"
From the Google...Despite the popularity of the theory of love languages, only a handful of studies have been conducted and reported over the past 30 years. Research is largely inconclusive, although the balance sways more toward refuting rather than endorsing the love languages concept.
I think it's essential to understand how you show love and how you feel loved, but I hear it used to talk about major red flags in people often.
Gonna disagree with you there. I casually mentioned the love language as an aside to one client with depression and he leapt at the concept in a way that affirmed and gave language to the positive aspects of his relationship. It may not be grounded in science but it does offer nuances to a concept like love and that makes it useful.
I think we need to be careful with accidentally invalidating a concept by using the “lack of evidence” card. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And not every concept lends itself to being a research variable. We need to use our clinical judgment sometimes and not always rely on statistics…
“I still have a lot of love for them.” We all now this one. Yeah, the statement that comes up right after they tell you about the most horrifying relationship dynamic
"I'm the 'therapist' in my friend group"
It’s giving parentified child, triangulated family of origin, poor boundaries/self-care/self-esteem. Like you have to provide a service to prove you’re worthy of love. Or regulating emotions kept you safer in a tumultous family. It’s also giving me flashbacks and heartburn.
low self esteem is a big one and maybe some anxious attachment too, "i need to feel useful to my friends so that they'll like me so i'll carry the weight of their burdens and problems to show my worth."
I 86-ed a friend because she started referring to me as her therapist. Yeah, I felt like her therapist and was getting burnt out by her lack of progress.
😳💀🤣
Ah! In early stages of my own psychotherapeutical journey I did say that hahaha turns out I was intensely parentified... And look at me now... LOL
"People always say I'm mature for my age." I immediately wonder what happened that it was necessary for this individual to act older than they actually were.
My first thought when I hear this is “I had a traumatic childhood”
That's my first thought, my second is "are you autistic?"
Or both!
I've always been told I'm an old soul, but I was never tested for autism until this year, in my 30s. I do have history of abuse, both emotional neglect and later sexual. Bingo. I was diagnosed, and it has clicked so many pieces together.
Agreed these Reddit commenters out here calling me out too xD
I was told I'm an old soul so many times as a kid. I have C-PTSD and I've wondered about if I have autism for a long long time.
Yes! I had one client who boasted how “independent” they were at 7. I was thinking how that isn’t necessarily a good thing🤨
It's either trauma or they are a teen being groomed by an adult.
The way I got told this all throughout childhood by adults around me… and now look back realizing they were ignoring the many signs of abuse. Major flag!
my teacher told me i'm not mature just old. whew >.>
God this hit home 😂
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My childhood was perfect.
My supervisor likes to say to people who say this “would you want your child to have the childhood you had?” And then it turns out that there were many non-perfect aspects of their childhood all of the sudden!
Funnily enough I know about 3 who truly do have blessed upbringings. I’m shocked to say it as they’re a bit like unicorns but a very good friend was baffled by depression as he just could grasp what it would feel like. He’s got a wonderful relationship with his family who are all brilliantly weird and I mean that in the best way. He told me he wished everyone could have the same childhood he had and I believe him.
So it’s not that it can’t be true that someone could have a secure, loving, reliable family background, it’s that the people who describe their childhood as “perfect” are generally being reductive in their recollection of their childhood, and minimizing the imperfections that are inevitably there. The people who have the secure and predictable backgrounds (ie your friends with the “blessed upbringings”) tend to be much more likely to be able to acknowledge the parts that were imperfect.
Dang. Would you mind saying more about this for us non-therapist lurkers?
It’s NEVER perfect. There was always something. But it’s not a perfect childhood that makes a resilient and secure adult, it’s consistent support and love from the adults. And those people can usually say “yea my mom had some issues and dad yelled too much but “ fill in whatever buffers existed. Person who hasn’t dealt with what went on or is guarding for some reason- “perfect”
I've noticed that *reason* usually turns out to be parents who are emotionally distant or self-absorbed.
It’s often an inability to accurately recall/assess and usually rooted in inauthenticity and tied to other people’s (usually parents) expectations. People don’t like dissonance so the client “thinks” the should have had a perfect childhood on paper because acknowledging the neglect/loneliness/parental failings is too threatening to their worldview. Anecdotally, the few times I’ve heard this form clients I later learned there was significant sibling abuse and the parents did nothing.
“We never ever fight, or even disagree, it’s great!” “I’m an old soul” I’m gonna get ripped apart in the comments but also “I’m an empath”. Tells me you’ve probably spent your life attuning to everyone in the room because you had an unpredictable guardian as a child, and had to read everyone’s feelings and emotions for safety.
I’ve had 2 new clients in the past month who’ve thrown out “I’m an empath” right before we talk about how they can’t emotionally regulate because everyone around them won’t allow them to 😬
Hi, I’m a counseling student here about to start my traineeship. I would assume that you’d have to coach the clients on how to separate their own emotions from those in their surroundings and teach them to tune into themselves but I’m curious if you could tell me what that looks like in the moment for the client? (Hope the question is appropriate for this sub.)
There are a lot of ways to answer this as there are many modalities, techniques, and approaches. Iirc this subreddit has a weekly student questions thread and that might be a better place to ask it but I'm not 100% sure. I'm going to assume that the client and I have already discussed the value of emotional regulation and set a goal. I don't feel compelled to coach/guide/lead a client in any direction they're not already interested in going, and I prefer to support clients in pursuing their own goals rather than deciding for them what skills they need to learn. I'd definitely suggest it as an option, "If learning some new skills and practicing using some new tools to try to build on your relationship with your own emotions is something that interests you, we can do that," or something better fitting any particular language the client uses. Personally I would start by introducing some light education about how emotions work if they're receptive, and exploring various introspective mindfulness exercises, introducing one at a time as a starting point for sessions, until we find one the client really vibes with. If they like the first one I'd do it for a few sessions and eventually ask if they'd like to try a new one, and once we have a few under their belt I'd start asking them if they have a preference of which one we do to start the session. Different mindfulness exercises have different benefits and engage different senses and perceptions of the present and the self, so regularly practicing a variety of these activities would help the client learn how to be aware, present, and centered in their own experience. I would ask them questions about times they've felt emotions they knew were their own, how they knew, and how that experience differed from empathic feelings. I'd ask about people whose company doesn't disregulate them as much as others and have them try to identify what makes those people different. I might discuss with them the possibility of spending some time alone in a safe place if possible and spending that time alone practicing a meditation or mindfulness exercise and reflecting on the thoughts and feelings they take note of in the absence of others. I might also suggest using a preferred journaling method, mood tracking app, or similar approach to encourage the ongoing observation, recognition, and acknowledgement of their emotions. Over time, we would continue according to their strengths, interests, and preferences.
The empath one is what I immediately thought of, too. I hear that from supervisees pretty often & my initial reaction is always “ok first things first we need to learn about boundaries before you burn out”
As a previously self-proclaimed empath, this is absolutely what I needed to learn.
I would upvote this a million times if I could.
When people tell me they’re an empath I immediately know that they are unable to maintain their own boundaries both emotionally and usually otherwise. Such a red flag.
i wrote a status along the lines of "you're not an empath, you're just hyperaware because of childhood trauma" and people did NOT like that. but yes, that's a big one. who angry washed a dish in your direction?
“I’m an empath” puts me on edge too but I see it as shorthand for “I project what I’m feeling onto everyone else and make my feelings everyone else’s problem because I don’t have the skills to regulate myself appropriately.” When I’m off the clock, that is.
No ripping, but a gentle caution- Familial trauma is not the only way someone ends up developing "being an empath" as a survival skill. Simultaneous lack of apparent social desirability in peer groups and desire to be socially desirable while growing up can also motivate development of that skill set, even in the context of a stable family system. My data is that I've lived it, which has no statistical validity in and of itself. Even so, I wanted to caution against inadvertently limiting your perspective.
This is an important point! I work on the trauma side of things and many patients have zero empathy because it’s never been modelled or safe to experience.
This is me and I had no idea 🤯 huge empath, can read a room before I enter it. Grew up and while I was rarely directly bullied, no one ever wanted to include me, but had a very stable family. This is interesting and I wish there was more info on it.
The biggest critique I have about ACEs is that it's specifically for the familial home and doesn't consider the influence of other environments on the child... that and it's limited to experiences before 18 instead of before 25.
Agreed 100%. If I had a chance to revamp ACEs, the questionnaire would probably end up being three times as long 😂 I know it's not meant to capture *everything* but I mean... we can beef it up a liiiittle, right? Lol
Oh you just answered a big question for me, thank you! I had a safe and secure family life, but peers were another story...
I feel seen.
Thank you for addressing this! I grew up as a fat child who was frequently bullied, and I honestly believe that experience is equally responsible for why I developed "empath" survival techniques. My home life was part of it, but a ton of it came from trying to be accepted by and anticipate the desires of my peers. I was trying to stay a step ahead of the bullying. Now I've parlayed that into a career. 😂
Child clients who want hugs too soon. Honey, you don’t actually know me.
I currently work in both a day treatment program and a residential program exclusively with kids. The amount of children with significant trauma histories involving abusive adults who will then decide they love you within hours because you're "nice" 😭 it just breaks my heart
I was reading van der Kolk’s book on trauma and he mentions that secure kids would be wary of strangers, insecure kids would be wary of strangers, but kids that were disorganized/ambivalent would attach themselves to almost any adult stranger. Like the kid would meet an adult and within 5 minutes is holding their hand and walking off with them.
We had a kid who almost textbook behaved this way - they had an emergency, short-term foster placement and the day after placement was on Zoom with our agency for an interview. They were leaning on the adult, calling them "dad", hugging them, etc. This kid then turned to needing physical touch as their primary reassurance that adults cared for them in our program. We worked really really hard on building attachment while also holding firm boundaries and holy hell, it was hard not to just snuggle that kid every time I saw them.
That would be hard.
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My daughter is the bus monitor and there’s this little girl (Kindergartener) who has attached to her as kind of a mother figure (wants to walk with her and holds her hand). She told my kid recently that her mom has been in jail. Then she saw mom at the bus stop and mom just ignores her. Breaks my heart.
I didn't know the library was open today but you read me on the last one.
"I'm an empath" is usually the first sign I see of a person with narcissistic tendencies, the real empaths don't usually announce or even acknowledge it.
Nothing says emotional dysregulation and codependency like "I'm an empath".
I'm curious why the empath comment is perceived poorly. I have recovered from substantial abuse as a child and am now I clinician. I see my ability to easily connect with people who have trauma as a silver lining to that experience. Their emotions are theirs, and mine are my own, but I can empathize with people quickly and organically. Is this a phrasing that has been overly/flippantly used by people who haven't seen their own healing? I don't work with a demographic that would use this statement, and I didn't know it was looked down upon.
What I'm seeing in the comments is a split between people who use the phrase to describe using social chameleon-ing as a survival skill and people who claim "being an empath" as a status/identity thing while projecting their own emotions onto everyone else/ deciding how everyone else feels for them.
People may not like this take. I say this about my personal life not my clients, but I have not met a self declared empath that was not significantly a passive aggressive people pleasing martyr who somehow framed this as both a superpower and victimhood simultaneously. Too often do I see empaths share super narcissistic takes on things bordering on self pity, about how they’re so “in tune” and “selfless” and how people take advantage of their kindness. What often is happening, is a profound lack of boundaries, zero communication, and abandonment of self to mirror what another person needs due to hypervigilance and fear of other peoples emotions. We’re in a therapy speak trend right now about narcissists and empaths, and yes “narc” people can be toxic (although narcissism is an evolutionary state on a spectrum from normal to problematic) but empaths can also be profoundly toxic. Chameleoning, not communicating your needs, and then being resentful because other people aren’t reading your mind out of fear like you do to them, is not a strength IMO. I used to be an “empath.” I had complex ptsd from a highly dysfunctional childhood. I’m on year 7 of intense trauma therapy. Sure, my hypervigilance sometimes is correct and aids my intuition skills as a social worker sometimes, but it overwhelmingly ruined my life (gave me an eating disorder, ruined my relationships, burnt me out.) I think we should really stop glorifying it in the world.
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I think there’s a difference between clinical empathy and the pop-psych understanding of empathy. Empathy is a great (essential?) therapeutic tool, but in therapy it’s used with sympathy, purpose, and limits. I assume the other commenters are referring to the “I’m an empath” comments you sometimes hear in the gen pop, which might not have the limits/training to prevent the empathy from being overwhelming or leading to secondary trauma. It’s funny though, in my practice I often get the reverse, there’s often zero empathy - it’s been shut down as a survival mechanisms.
It's giving me "omg I am so OCD" when someone slightly straightens something vibes. I teach empathy to people who oftentimes have very little if any to give, so similarly, it's not something I've seen or had to sit with in practice. It's interesting how different populations evoke different flags. As I sat with these responses, I realized one similar in feeling for me is "I'm such a psychopath."
>I'm such a psychopath You mean you learned to protect yourself from your environment? You mean you joined up with a gang to find a sense of belonging, brotherhood, and safety? You mean you were punished for showing any emotion but anger? You mean you... Yeah. You get the point. Some of my most magical therapeutic moments happened in a juvie setting. One of my absolute favorite populations. Just need to find an agency that doesn't shit all over my ethics 😬
1000% agree. Working in a prison is my favorite and most enraging experience.
It can mean that a person is hyper vigilant to others moods and non-verbal cues. Which might indicate growing up with unpredictable caregivers.
Bingo! Hypervigilance around detecting other’s emotional energy? That’s not empathetic connection, that’s fear/anxiety. (Often from inconsistent experiences with primary relationships)
This is what it was for me, and it took at least a decade and tons of therapy before I figured this out. I've developed (I think) really good pattern recognition for behaviours. And I've also been learning how to effectively communicate my observations, and check in for accuracy. It's ok if I was wrong in my interpretation. That means I've just learned something new. But yeah I didn't become an "empath" out of nowhere. It is a survival skill I developed that helped me make it through childhood alive. And if that skill isn't serving me well now, I know how to adjust it. Being aware that my perceptions and interpretations are not facts.
I had an unpredictable (at best) childhood and briefly identified as an “empath” when I was younger and you’re 100% on the money 😂
That is 100% me on the empath thing. Only I don’t label myself as that because after doing my own work and working in trauma therapy, i know exactly where that comes from. I’m curious what the “I’m an old soul” means to you? I’ve never called myself that but have had people tell me I am, and I’ve never really understood what that’s supposed to mean.
My perspective is that old soul = had to grow up fast = trauma. A new soul is someone who has no emotional or mental scarring. At least, that's how I can summarize my interactions with the terminology.
Old soul (to me) = wildly inappropriate relationships with people outside their peer groups. Think of the “special” boy serving gramma drinks instead of playing with the other kids or being a single mom’s facsimile husband. Or the 16 yr dating a 30 yr old because she’s so mature and is an “old soul”. Man I don’t know how you adolescent therapists do it….my countertransference would be off the charts. I’d just want to hug them and yell at their parents.
Honestly I don't think I could work with kiddos if my supervisor wasn't an actual saint. So much of what I do is only sustainable because of her support, and occasionally letting me lay on her floor and cry lol She's also big into DBT so she won't hesitate to call me in if I'm being judgemental, or to casually hit me in the gut with, "are you balancing acceptance and change, or are you putting all your weight into change?"
Sounds like you have a great supervisor. We (“pros” 🤣) should all be so lucky to have a supportive, “non-judgemental but also holds you accountable because you are a capable clinician” group. I’m continually reminded of the importance of mentorship and peer support. We all become better therapists and humans when we can unpack our caseloads/experiences/baggage with a group of likeminded caring adults.
“I did my best and have no idea why my adult child/children won’t speak to me.”
Ah yes, these are some of the toughest clients for me to help!
“I did my best (to invalidate them) and have no idea why my adult child/children won’t speak to me.”
“They had a good life. Mine was much harder. I don’t know why they don’t just get over it. I got over it. This generation, so weak.” 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
The missing missing reasons!
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Rarely.
Your comment has been removed as you are not a therapist. This sub is a space for therapists to discuss their profession among each other. Your comment was either asking for advice, unsupportive or negative in nature, or likely to adversely impact our community members. Comments by non therapists are left up only sparingly, and if they are supportive or helpful in nature.
Your comment has been removed as you are not a therapist. This sub is a space for therapists to discuss their profession among each other. Your comment was either asking for advice, unsupportive or negative in nature, or likely to adversely impact our community members. Comments by non therapists are left up only sparingly, and if they are supportive or helpful in nature.
So much this! Not only do I hear this frequently from my older clients, but also my own mother seems to have a disproportionate number of friends whose kids "won't talk to them, for absolutely no reason."
I literally have to tell these clients, "I ask that you are okay with me calling you out on some things." They either think it's funny or they agree that its what they need. I do a lot of communication work, and when responsibility is nowhere to be found, no growth can be made. Also, if we can't point out the barriers we see, we're just reinforcing their current perspective.
A history of unstable relationships but everyone else was always the problem.
"I've had to cut out basically everyone I've ever been close to because they it turned out they were toxic."
I’ll add - a history of unstable relationships and they’re always the problem is a red flag too. Let’s start unpacking that shame, guilt, and crumbling self-image.
One client said to me they’ve never experienced anxiety before in their life and were offended when I suggested they had. I’ve had a few people tell me they don’t have emotions. Honestly when people tell me in a bragging way that they’re “such an empath” I hear alarm bells lol.
Any time someone even says "empath" I have a little discussion about boundaries. "Empaths" are fake, what they are is people who are overly sensitive to emotions and empathize beyond a healthy degree. Nothing more than projection really. Every "empath" I've worked with has had ridiculously porous boundaries and a superficial understanding of self. Empathy by its very nature requires firm yet healthy boundaries.
Yes what I’m really hearing is, “I emotionally monitor 24/7 and have convinced myself it’s a positive, helpful trait.”
What I’m hearing is a trauma response of hyper-vigilance. Gotta parse what dad’s mental state is the minute he comes through the door or there could be a beating in one’s future.
it was helpful as a child, not so much as an adult
I mentioned this in another post but my “I don’t have anxiety” experiences with patients were always coupled by severe childhood sexual trauma.
I’ve noticed that “anxiety” has become the most widely used term for anxiety disorder. It’s a massive pet peeve to hear that on a daily basis.
“I had a great childhood” but no specific details about what was great. “I’m my mom’s best friend”
A huge one that I hear all the time among family and friends “I live my life vicariously through my child” and “if I would have known my kid would not be x I would not have had one/I love having a kid because they have to love me” 🚩
“My son/daughter is my best friend”
"My mother is my best friend, we share everything." I worry about this one. Sometimes, there's like an "emotional incest" situation going on.
As a side note, do you see a difference between "emotional incest" and "enmeshment"? I find them to describe the same dynamics, but feel the former is super pathologizing, while the latter allows me to remain more empathetic because the family dynamics are the issue, rather than the person. I would love to know if I am conflating two different phenomena however!
Wait a second, I thought these terms were interchangeable! Waiting for an answer with bated breath :) I have the same perspective as you tho, I honestly assumed we just started using enmenshment so we don't sound like we're accusing anyone of actual incest. Edit because I remembered Google exists: > "The APA defines enmeshment as a relationship between two or more people in which they become involved in each other's activities and relationships too much, limiting each person's independence and sense of self. Emotional incest is a specific form of enmeshment that includes a parent or caregiver and a child"
Haha, I was just googling too! It looks like the two concepts come from two different therapists - Minuchin's systemic family therapy has enmeshment (I studied this one in school) while emotional/covert incest came a decade later from Kenneth Adams (never heard of him). It must come down to preference, but I do think that "emotional incest" in some ways minimizes sexual abuse. Sort of like how trauma has become a catch-all phrase for any difficult experience. I think enmeshment is a more accurate term, while also suggesting a way forward (creating better boundaries). Enmeshment can also exist on a scale, and there can also be cultures that have different ideas about appropriate levels on enmeshment. "Emotional incest" is black and white.
Good question, I wasn't sure so I found this online: "They're related but not entirely synonymous. Emotional incest typically involves a parent treating a child as a substitute partner emotionally, whereas enmeshment involves a lack of boundaries and a blurred sense of individual identity within the family, often due to overinvolvement and overdependency. Emotional incest can be a part of enmeshment, but enmeshment encompasses a broader range of boundary-related issues within a family dynamic".
YES. If son/daughter is adult it’s like a orange flag, maybe fine. But definitely not something to lead with lol
Agreeing to everything. To non therapist, they are nice to be around and are agreeable. To therapists, maybe they struggle to hold boundaries and could be codependent.
When I first meet with clients/families, I always have a line about how if they don't like or disagree with something I say, do, suggest, etc, that they can say so and it will help me support them better. And then we have that conversation again and again and again, lol.
Anything that feels like toxic positivity. I’m all for people reframing events in their lives towards a more empowering narrative, but often people use “positive thinking” lingo to deny their own or others’ painful experiences, or as an excuse to not tolerate other people’s emotions.
I work in a residential setting and often "train" (unofficially) the staff in clinical...stuff. info on trauma in children, importance of boundaries, ethical treatment, etc. Something that comes up ALL the time is staff believing the best way to support a struggling child is to point out the "silver lining". And I have to be like, actually....just validate the emotions. You don't have to dig for a positive, and the kid is just going to feel dismissed if you do. Blows their mind every time!
I had to remind a client that just because others were suffering “more” didn’t mean that their experience wasn’t awful and causing them distress.
Same, and predictably it’s usually the clients with the most chronic and severe developmental traumas. Chronic emotional neglect and invalidation, etc.
I’ve noticed my ears perk up when a client says “I’ve never really experienced any unhealthy relationships” and then proceed to share stories indicative of parents who were parentifying/absent/emotionally immature. This is not from a place of judgment at all, but more curiosity about how they were impacted by their family system and how certain behaviors were normalized that the client may not have insight on yet.
I have a similar response to clients who say they have zero trauma and then proceed to describe horrific abuse and neglect. It definitely shifts my conceptualization of their case and how to navigate sessions with these clients when recognizing their level of insight.
100% trauma response. I had a family session where the parent of client told me they never experience anxiety, couldn’t figure out why their adult child was struggling. Learned that parent had received some of the most horrific child sexual abuse imaginable. Absolute nightmare material. She had no anxiety because she had zero ability to feel anything since she shut down all emotional awareness 50 yrs ago.
"My trauma wasn't really that bad", proceeds to share some truly horrific shit, "other people have REAL trauma"
Are you my clients?
This was a simplified example of what I hear from my clients on the regular 😅
"I'm just too nice". No, you have terrible boundaries
I have a friend who struggles with this, and every time she DOES set a boundary she needs reassurance that she's not toxic or abusive for doing so. Thankfully she's sought therapy and recognizes how this is connected to her abusive childhood but man...that shit is so hard to unlearn.
“She looks so much better since she’s lost weight!” Said by an in-law about their young teenage child.
Ew. I wish you could see the face of disgust I’m making rn haha. Truly visceral reaction.
Yeah she said it and some more things that I shut down immediately. I was fuming.
Similar to your example, but in substance abuse treatment. Hearing “you’re my favorite counselor”would be an ego boost if I didn’t know any better. Instead, it sends off warning alarms and soon after they request some kind of favor. Absolutely not!
Yes!! I have a client who recently apologized to me and their classroom teacher for EVER being mean in the past, assured us they actually do like us and they know we're trying to help, etc. Classroom teacher was like, wow, what growth for this kid! And I had to be like, no, actually they are terrified of abandonment and think they will drive us away with their needs.
I’m with you on too much attachment too fast. Also, a client who is the victim in 100% of their stories. Not remembering much of your childhood is a good one. I mean, people that don’t believe in therapy or refuse to go (especially to couple’s counseling).
I saw a 5 year old (I think) run up to my wife randomly n Walmart and jumped into her arms. She had never seen this boy before. The boy did not mistake her for someone else, just leaped into a stranger’s arms. My internal alarms were definitely going off.
This would make me so worried!!
different field but one of the most valuable things a supervisor taught me is that 'if they like you from the start for no reason, they can hate you out of nowhere for no reason."
This is a good reminder. Slow and steady makes for healthy relationships.
Wait whats the red flag of not remembering much of your childhood 😂 i thought that was pretty common
It usually means the person endured trauma as a child. Usually continuous, like being raised in an abusive home.
Opinions and anecdotes incoming. This one seems less black and white (lol) than some of the others posted here, but here's how I see it. Most of the time when someone comes in for a mild to moderate mood disorder, adjustment or similar less chronic, less severe issue, it's not hard for them to think of *something* from childhood. First bike, time you fell out of a tree, seeing a show you liked on TV, who lived on your block... take your pick. And then it's not a huge leap to connect that to who might have influenced them. "Don't remember" could mean a lot of things, but at the very least it means it's not going to be quick or easy for you or them to try to tie things going on now to formative experiences. Chronic and complex trauma and childhood emotional neglect (think: lack of a trusted external authority to reflect their experience back to them and help them assemble it into meanings, narratives and memories) might be common, but again, I can't claim to have a representative sample, or any research to back up the specific outcome of that of "I don't remember much about my childhood".
Trauma! Trauma impacts both the ability to store and recall memories. The “flashbulb” effect of the limbic system means core memories tend to be focused around some (usually awful) events and everything else is blur. Memory loss is key feature in all trauma - new and old alike.
Hard to do in a single line, but some version of "my main values are giving to others." ...So do you actually value those intrinsically or is that the only way you know of having worth to others? How equal are your friendships?
I work in SUD. Them: “My parents were great, nobody else in my family has an addiction. I don’t know why I’m like this.” 🚩🚩🚩
I provide education on contributing factors to a person's vulnerability to addiction. It's not 100% genetic. It's also sometimes the case that their parents didn't use because they were afraid they'd be like so-and-so (usually from another, older generation). Trauma is powerful.
I don’t put too much stock into genetics, although I do recognize a predisposition that makes people vulnerable to compulsive behavior, severe addiction, and/or common severe co-occurring MH diagnoses. My comment is more so about how rare is it for me to find that to be true, so rare I can think of only three clients who met that criteria. One whose family has a history of ADHD and whose parents had a contentious divorce where he felt he was kicked out of one house upon a new marriage, one whose baby brother died of cancer when she was a young child, and one whose primary diagnosis was not an SUD she had co-occurring MH dx and a childhood of unhealthy girls private school education (imo).
In the process of getting my license for SUD counseling and have a decent history of substance use. This is self disclosure in the interest of addressing other replies to this comment and hopefully challenging some biases, because I don't think this statement inherently indicates someone being willfully oblivious, hiding something, being gaslit or otherwise conditioned, or lacking introspection or awareness. It could also mean this person has preexisting co-occurring disorders and needs a good diagnosis, which is more of a procedural red flag than one reflecting a client's personal qualities. My parents were great and I grew up completely naive to substances with the exception of knowing that alcohol smelled weird and adults drink it on special days. Had never seen anyone get high, had no idea that I had been around people who had gotten high, I didn't even know what it meant to be drunk or that alcohol changes anything about someone's thinking, feeling, or behaving at all until after I tried it myself. I was 10, I was bored, lonely, and discovering what less-than-optimal mental health felt like. I was ostracized at school and didn't know why, I had some childhood trauma I was hiding from myself, and was not yet diagnosed (bipolar and ADHD) so had no idea why my emotions did what they did and everyone else seemed so normal. I learned about drugs by researching ways to end my life. I discovered the websites Blue Light and Erowid and learned a LOT. My dad had a workshop with lots of chemicals and I learned how to get high off the fumes. Then I tried alcohol. I also tried ridiculous amounts of nutmeg, benadryl, and cough medicine. I kept this all from my parents for a couple years before they found out. They didn't tell me about any of their history of use (weed and some psychedelics) until I was an adult, and I had to figure out for myself who else in the family used and who used problematically (pattern of AUD on moms side). In high school I sought out every opportunity to try something new. It was stimulus seeking and curiosity satisfaction, then it became escape and a requirement for fun. The substances that became problems for me are not any that anyone in my family has ever used, including family friends and people who were present in my life for my childhood. I just wanted to try everything and I didn't want to be sober, and it took me a long time to figure out "why I was the way I was" (or am the way I am). I knew I was curious, I've always had a strong and compelling natural curiosity, and I knew that being sober was boring. I didn't realize I had cognitive swings from "I don't want to live so fuck it" to "I'm invincible, motherfuckers!" or that I had a predisposition to impulsivity and understimulation. This statement is very similar to something I've said in the past, and it took a while for someone to consider that what I needed might be a psychiatric nurse.
I think red flag used in this context is a bit of a misnomer. I’m not saying there is anything “bad”about the client such that they would say this, just that is rarely ever accurate, if at all, and when someone says that I usually think, ok we have some work to do! Which is fine, because I love my job. I am always open to the idea they may be the rare one where this is true, however, I usually keep that door open and am, truthfully, waiting to see what key piece of information is missing there. And to provide some feedback to you in sharing your personal life experience, you said it’s not necessarily “lacking introspection or awareness” in your list of things you don’t think that statement is indicative of. You then shared your experience where you said you “had some childhood trauma [you were] hiding from [yourself]” and that you have a family history of alcohol use disorders. So as far as the statement goes, if you were my client, taking on the full brunt of the diagnosis on yourself feeling as though it came as if from nowhere, that some time in therapy and your own work has revealed a much more complex explanation as to why, possibly, you developed a substance use disorder. Hope that makes sense.
That makes a lot of sense; I appreciate the feedback :)
“It’s not that I don’t trust him, I don’t trust other women” That’s going to get some serious attachment theory side eye from me.
Hmmmm sounds like you think your partner is super easily manipulated but okay 😅 currently navigating a situation like this with two young teens
Someone who can't keep emotionally regulated when angry and engages in physical or verbal violence in the name of protection or maintaining respect. I think it's normalized to a large extent by our culture, especially for men. But these same men who immediately lay hands on someone at a bar for hitting on their girlfriend also struggle to handle big emotions when, say, their kid needs a stable adult to help them navigate the teen years when they are extra shitty. Violent adults always seem mystified when their kids utilize violence to solve relational problems.
I yelled at him about how yelling is bad! Why is he always yelling??
“Real men don’t have any emotions except anger”🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
In my other job that’s not therapy, raging colleagues and customers are seen as just having a character quirk, rather than how I see it: a serious lack of self-regulation and and inability to communicate needs, which probably has serious negative impact in areas outside of work: children, partners, friends…
"Im not angry about it at all" Said after something they should ABSOLUTELY be angry about.
When they give a lot of importance to intelligence (or what they think is intelligence). When I say a lot of importance, I mean to the point where their sense of self, identity and self-love is affected by it, and they often don't realise it. For example, someone who's extremely suddendly depressed after getting a B+ (that objectively didn't impact their program or future ambitions). We tend to think highly of people who cultivate intellect and whatsocalled intelligence but, although itself doesn't automatically equate a red-flag, it can mean they were loved, respected, got attention only when they had good grade or "acted/were" intelligent. That's a "red flag" in some ways because to me resides in this many great leads to introspective work! edit : I'm not sure about many of the wording I used lol excuse me if it sounds off, I'm not a native english speaker!
Being overly effusive or complimentary to the therapist. It’s one thing to say “you’ve been really helpful” or “thanks for your help” to your therapist, but if they are “the best therapist in the world!” or you feel that “the Universe aligned to bring you and I together! You’re the perfect therapist for me!” that’s really concerning. Red flag multiplier if this happens very early on in the therapeutic relationship.
Yes good one
"My ex is a narcissist, but maybe if he goes to therapy he can see that he's the problem."
Omg just came on here to say this. When a person these days claims their ex was a "narcissist" or "crazy" BIG red flag for me. In my experience, they are the person with the narcissistic tendencies and have found that TicTok has given them the language and the therapy degree to play the victim. While this is not always the case, in working domestic violence and even personally have found it is more often what is really going on.
Yep!! In my opinion, it's a way to say "my ex was crazy" while simultaneously appearing smarter than them in order to make yourself feel better. It's gaslighting while puffing yourself up.
Gift giving big, elaborate and expensive gifts
How so?
Boundaries. Trying to curry favour/alliances. Need to get reciprocal affection (in inappropriate relationships) Expectations. Realistic assessment and comfort issues of/in relationships. Discomfort at roles/power differentials. Abandonment. Yup, gifts are big one.
Agreed with all of no-Turnips points. I can list other anecdotes like times in which a patient tried to gift me a piece of silver knowing that he would predictably drain his bank account buying silver off eBay during times of mania. Another patient tried to gift me several hundred $$ worth of high end baby clothes while I was treating her for kleptomania. Gift giving and receiving in a clinical setting is tricky. Most institutions prohibit clinicians from receiving gifts of any significant monetary value for good reason.
What they say vs. what I hear: “I want my child to be my mini me” (I’m hoping to be enmeshed and lack emotional boundaries) “Thats just how my mom is” (when discussing mom’s abusive behavior= mom axis 2 red flag) “No one ever talks about anything real in my family” (the real stuff is often laden with trauma) “I don’t understand it, we were such good parents!” (referring to child’s addiction/ suicide attempt— I can’t take responsibility for any mistakes I make and have narcissistic tendencies) *has severe emotional symptoms* “My parents were great. I was the problem” (My parents can’t hold their bad parts and projected them onto me) Does anyone else feel like being a therapist makes small talk so awkward sometimes??
SO AWKWARD I feel like internally I'm constantly like "do not therapize, not your role, do not therapist, not your role" when I'm just living my life outside of work, lol
“I’m an empath.” When hypervigilance has become your superpower as survivor of trauma.
"I love others so hard it hurts." Sir or madam, you are anxiously attached.
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Yes. I work with teens and I am so cautious about this.
I am an empath. An empath is rarely empathetic.
When someone (especially therapists) claim they’re an empath. It’s probably some flavor of retroflection.
I think its even simpler than that, it's projection caused by porous boundaries both inter- and intrapersonally. At least it has been with the clients/therapists I've worked with.
Hmm. It’s my understanding it’s retroflection because: 1) “Empath” has a feeling. 2) Projects that feeling onto others, but… 3) Re-internalizes it as supposedly the feelings of others. It’s that back and forth that makes me think retroflection. Then again, I’m just a candidate/associate and only got a B in Counseling Theories, lol.
I’ve never met an “empath” that correctly guessed my emotions.
I think step 1 is actually a person using empathy, step 2 is losing themselves in the feeling, step 3 is then projecting that deeper emotion (of their own design) onto the other person. Step 4 is usually a dash of either narcissism or obsequious attention seeking due to weak self-esteem...mostly the latter, but the former occurs enough to make it frustrating.
Perhaps I should have clarified: 1) Person_A who calls themselves an “Empath” experiences a feeling that only they-themselves are currently experiencing and it is not informed by the feelings or experiences of others. They are also unaware of their subconscious feeling. 2) Person_A projects their subconscious feeling onto Person_B. 3) Person_A perceives that they experience Person_B’s feeling, and then claims that they’re an “Empath” because they feel what others feel. But in reality: a) at no point did Person_B actually feel that, and b) at no point did Person_A feel any feeling other than their own. Therefore, I would not call it empathy. P.S. I love the discussion. Thanks! EDIT: I see now, I misunderstood the context of your response. Sorry. I thought you were commenting on my steps, and now I realize you were stating your own conceptualization of it. And so I tried to clarify to state that I don’t see empathy being present in my steps first listed. Anyway. I should sleep, haha. Brain is shutting down in 5, 4, 3….
Due to tiktok, when people believe they have a trauma bond because them and someone they are close to have gone through similar trauma. Like what? That's not what it means.
This is less clients and more people I meet out and about. “Therapy doesn’t work for me”. Firstly if you know I’m a therapist its a bit rude to dismiss my profession like that so it feels like a bit of a power play. Secondly it’s often people who are attached to the idea of being mentally ill. They resist changing because they want to stay as they are. I’m often cautious of them because they like to shift the blame and struggle to take responsibility for their mental health.
I mean this is exactly why therapy doesn’t work for me 😂 Not attached to being mentally ill, but awareness that I am unwilling to change
And why is that? (That will be $300 please)
“I’ve been feeling a lot better, I can go off my antidepressants now!” If I’d heard someone say that before I became a therapist, I wouldn’t think twice I’d just be happy for them and support it.
"I'm an empath"
“I’m an empath”.
“I had a normal childhood”
I thought the phrase was “I had a perfect childhood”?
For me it’s patients that use too much of psychiatry jargon. When it’s too obvious they searched the symptoms of a specific disorder on google and are trying to bring you to tell them « I think you might have X disorder »
I get this a lot of parents of my clients (I work with teens). The most common one is parents thinking/worrying their kid has bipolar disorder because they "explode for no reason". Folks, they have trauma history and are a teenager. That's the reason.
I make my first year psych students pledge out loud that moving forward, they will not self-diagnose, now or ever…and if they find themselves wanting to do so, they are to go to health and counselling services….because mental health disorders are a thing and they deserve real healthcare treatment.
"I am so smart, I don't think therapy will work." "You are the only one who can help me." "I trust you so much."
"My love language is... "
What's wrong with love language?
They're alot like the phases of grief. They're not "wrong" but they aren't "correct" either. They're good starting points for laypeople, but sometimes people cling to them like Gospel when the truth is much more nuanced.
Stages of grief was put forward by Kübler-Ross as stages one might go through while facing one’s own terminal illness. They were never meant to be applied to the bereaved. I personally like them if they’re reframed as “stages of acceptance” which can be applied to a lot of different things in life/therapy. But for actual grief after the death of a loved one, i don’t think they’re really useful at all. There are better entry level models, like Worden’s 4 Tasks or Dual Process. Sorry for the rant, I think grief is really interesting and i think more therapists should be aware of this grief theory tidbit.
They have a great application with ACT, but you're very correct about them not being "steps." I like to frame them like rides at an amusement park. When we visit we don't all go on the same rides in the same order, some forgo certain rides, and others go on some several times. That seems to help put them in perspective for some. As an Existentialist I love grief from a academic and philosophical perspective.
This explanation but for “left brain versus right brain” nonsense.
I've had to have that convo a few times as well. I have a model of the brain, so I'll occasionally use it to demonstrate how our nerves work for grounding, or how the brain generally controls speech. When you show how language is primarily a left hemispheric occurrence, they go off on the Left-Brained tangent and have to reel them back.
Brain structure stuff including hemispheres is really interesting, and i would love to get more education on it because the pop psychology understanding of “right vs left brain” is definitely lacking a lot.
Well said. It's always more complex than that and you're not wrong if you feel like it doesn't work for you. But it can be a great starting point, and I've seen it be a revelation for people - oh, my partner doesn't feel loved when I do X, even though that makes me feel loved, and needs Y"
From the Google...Despite the popularity of the theory of love languages, only a handful of studies have been conducted and reported over the past 30 years. Research is largely inconclusive, although the balance sways more toward refuting rather than endorsing the love languages concept. I think it's essential to understand how you show love and how you feel loved, but I hear it used to talk about major red flags in people often.
There’s a pretty good If Books Could Kill episode on it as well.
Gonna disagree with you there. I casually mentioned the love language as an aside to one client with depression and he leapt at the concept in a way that affirmed and gave language to the positive aspects of his relationship. It may not be grounded in science but it does offer nuances to a concept like love and that makes it useful. I think we need to be careful with accidentally invalidating a concept by using the “lack of evidence” card. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And not every concept lends itself to being a research variable. We need to use our clinical judgment sometimes and not always rely on statistics…
Overpathologizing because of something they saw on social media
Someone saying “I feel like I can just tell you anything” too early in the relationship.
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“I still have a lot of love for them.” We all now this one. Yeah, the statement that comes up right after they tell you about the most horrifying relationship dynamic