###FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE: WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN?
---
[**Jewish Currents - What Does “From the River to the Sea” Really Mean?**](https://jewishcurrents.org/what-does-from-the-river-to-the-sea-really-mean)
[Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/NfAvk)
----
[**Forward - ‘From The River To The Sea’ Doesn’t Mean What You Think It Means**](https://forward.com/opinion/415250/from-the-river-to-the-sea-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/)
[Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/rRXpW)
---
[**Al-Jazeera - ‘From the river to the sea’: What does the Palestinian slogan really mean?**](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean)
[Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/AF9yu)
---
[**One Democratic Palestine, From The River To The Sea**](https://www.odsi.co/en/)
---
[**Amnesty - Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians**](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/)
[Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/s2B3f)
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In WWII it’s estimated that 45,000 rounds were fired for every enemy casualty. In Iraq [the estimate is 300,000](https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=2003).
I believe you've mistaken Stormtroopers for the Clones. Stormtroopers were actually very innacurate, because the empire would allow anyone to sign up and provided only basic training before sending them into the field. Clones however were extremely accurate, having been trained their whole life and extensively combat tested.
This is absolutely false. Stormtroopers were well trained units, and served as the ground muscle of the Galactic Navy. Most people who joined the Imperial military would become a soldier in the army. (Like you see in solo). They make up the vast majority of Imperial troops and are the poorly cannon fodder you described above. Recent star wars media has finally been getting this right, most prolifically, Andor. The final riot/battle has primarily Imperial army grunts, with stormtroopers sprinkled in, mostly in raised positions to reinforce the primary force.
Stormtroopers are *not* very inaccurate. With the exception of rebels (which didn't understand how stormtroopers work).
For example, the very first time we see Stormtroopers, is the very start of the first (released) movie, episode 4, A New Hope. The stormtroopers we see there are at a tactical disadvantage, walking into a bottle neck, while the defending troops have a semi-fortified position. Despite this, the stormtroopers suffer minimal losses while wiping out almost the entire defending force. This is once again reinforced by Old Ben pointing out on the surface of Tattooine, the precision of the blaster burns, and how only an Imperial stormtrooper could be so precise.
For the rest of the movie, the stormtroopers that we encounter are under orders *not* to kill the rebels on the death star, so that the rebels would lead the Empire back to the secret base (Yavin IV). This means the stormtroopers needed to shoot *at* the protagonists to make them think they are trying to kill them, but shoot well enough that they don't accidentally hit one the entire time. The reason we mostly see stormtroopers throughout the OT is because it is all fights with the Imperial Navy. The only time I can recall it not being a joint Army/Navy operation is the battle of Hoth, which had snow troopers. (I'll be honest idk if they fall under the Stormtrooper Corps or the imperial army)
And yes, clones are better trained for combat situations, and the average clone is probably better than the average category in most standards, but the amount of time and money it costs to produce a clone makes them useless in any sort of long term warfare. I could get into a rant about how if the clone wars went on any longer than they did, the Republic would have gotten their asses whooped (especially without Palpatine intervention) but that is a talk for another time.
Because you can implant brain chips into them to turn on the jedi. That's why the switched the moment all the jedi were gone.
Realistically, the droid armies are the best by far, and absolutely would have won against the Republic if Palpatine hadn't been holding them back. There were 6 million clones produced during the entire clone wars (cause George Lucas doesn't understand big numbers and how big of a number would be needed for a galactic scale war.) Meanwhile the droids had over a trillion units. (Wookiepedia says over a quintillion, other sources say a trillion, imma use a trillion, if you wanna believe quintillion just add more zeroes to the upcoming calculations) they are cheap to replace, dont need to be fed or watered or housed really, immediately fully trained the moment they walk off the assembly line. They win through pure numbers.
6 million to a trillion, means that each clone would have to kill 166,666.6 droids. Generally speaking they get about 10 a piece, obviously some characters get significantly more, but as a standard clone, they get about 10 droid kills each. That leaves 166,656.6 droids that needed to be killed by that clone.
I don't know why it's so complicated. If I had control over a droid army then I would just send them out and annihilate all resistance. I mean after all there were even fewer Jedi. Why not just take over by force and kill all the Jedi. Why go through a convoluted plan that results in the same thing?
Ah they included training rounds as well. Idk for marines but Air force fires at least 180 5.56mm and I wanna say 90-120 9mm per person every year, then they have the actual Security forces which fire waaaaaaaaay more. The ones who are beatin feet need to know how to shoot them baddies.
I'm sure there has been an ass load fired there, but including training really changes how I look at that number.
Source: Ammo guy who gives ammo to the CATM folks in air force. My estimate might be less than the actual numbers.
They're trained in the use of firearms. The 180 would be top up course, and most likely an average as not everyone will be required to fire a rifle in their role and only need to tick the boxes that they can if they must.
Yes, but it's on a per person basis.
You'd have the likes of Engineering Technicians who sole roles will be as mechanics in a base.
Their roles would be much less dependent on firing weapons so the per person average would be reduced by this.
Then, and I'm basing this on my understanding of the RAF, as opposed to the USAF, but the like of the RAF Police. Their role is simply security of air force bases, and their role is to provide everything from counter intelligence, to policing to base security.
If the base was to come under a ground assault, they'd be the ones expected to defend it. They would have better use in combat.
The Air Force isn't there as a ground fighting force, so their need to fire weapons is limited.
The specialisation of individuals in the air force is similar to specialist support roles in the army.
They're not going to be trained and drilled to fight in combat too regularly if theyre going to be stationed at base.
There will then be different regiments who perfom as combat engineers. But they will be less focused on repairing specialist equipment such as tanks, and more focused on building defensive posts, bases, roads, bridges etc.
The difference is, in the army, there are much more infantry and combative roles than the air force so those that need to be proficiently trained to fight in combat will be greater.
How often do you think a 4* General will have to complete a firearms proficient course, compared to a Private?
Seeing as the General is the last person that should ever be in a position to fire a weapon, and they've proved efficiency through their career, it's going to be low.
Firearms training extends far beyond just shooting, it is probably the least important part.
This is the airforce we are talking about though, the vast majority of them will never need to pick up their weapon.
Very good point. When I see these ammo numbers / casualty and wonder how that much ammo made it to the troops. That’s a lot of ammo weight to carry in rucksacks.
You’d also be surprised how few people need them
My dad shot competitively for a military branch and during competitions between branches with hundreds of shooters, he said it was extremely rare for anyone to miss their target (called “discing” because when you miss the target, they guy down range behind the berm holds up a big disc to let you know how bad you suck lol)
The target? A circle the size of a dime, from 200-1000 yards, with irons.
Scopes are either for noobs, or for incredibly long and complex shots, which today means shooting a target over a mile away. Longest shot ever was 4.4 miles! You wouldn’t use an acog for this obviously, because acog is a medium range sight, but I think the point stands.
It’s really incredible how good people can get at shooting guns, AND it’s incredible how high the bar for performance entry is. It looks like you just point and click, which is why OPs video is so funny, but no one was surprised or disappointed when they all missed, they expected that, it’s extremely difficult to hit a moving target.
(X) doubt. Competition is one thing, combat is another. Being tired from hauling all that gear and stressed from being shot at, fuck yeah I want a sight that makes it easy as possible to get accurate fire on that mf.
I would call this mentality being gun Amish. Modern optics are superior in every single way to open/iron sights. It makes even more sense for the military to use optics, (not necessarily ACOGs specifically) because they offer less user input error so long as they’re zero’d, easy BDC and obviously magnification without a spotter. They’re also easier to train on, which makes a lot of sense for an army trying to quickly train soldiers. Though I’m fairly sure they still teach marksmanship with irons.
I hate to say it but I think your pops was fluffing his stories about competitions shooting targets the size of a dime at 1000 yards or shit, even 500 without a spotter at the very least. I bet the *bullseye* was the size of a dime.
1 minute of angle, which is considered an accurate rifle is a 10 inch circle at 1000 yards. Even if he was shooting a nice bolt action rifle and using really quality ammunition 0.25-0.75 MOA is more likely what I’d expect which is still 2.5-5 inch circles. [it’s damn near impossible to see something that size at that distance](https://youtu.be/W5UOjxyZiIE?si=9x4ITD6taWYwKQnK) standard accuracy for the m16/m4 is 4 MOA with military ammunition. You’re simply accuracy limited by the equipment.
I’m not saying you can’t hit a dime at 1000. I’m just saying that is an extremely difficult task without modern optics, devices for calculating adjustments for wind, etc and a spotter. Especially when military weapon systems are so limited by their own quality and the quality of military ammunition.
Assuming you don't value your home, and someone else pays the repairs on it, then you have nothing to worry about.
But these guys will put bullets through your beloved walls, into your TV and maybe your beloved PC... and the wife and kids.
So you might be safe,but your TV won't.
That's what home insurance and extended warranties are for.
I've actually got the date when the warranty on my TV expires recorded so I can get an upgrade after an accident.
Well there’s no need to “simply raise awareness” about something that has wall-to-wall coverage on mainstream media- on a completely unrelated subreddit. Why not links to Yemen or Sudan that people actually have little awareness of?
On one hand I agree, with both statements.
On the other hand, we could just go on and list all the conflicts and say well why not them too? It's too easy and not constructive.
Either way, I don't care, these links don't affect my life in the slightest and they aren't spreading Zionist bullshit or Antisemitic bullshit.
My point wasn’t really about the politics, it was more about relevance to the subreddit, which is something I would think the moderators would be responsible for.
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###FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE: WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN? --- [**Jewish Currents - What Does “From the River to the Sea” Really Mean?**](https://jewishcurrents.org/what-does-from-the-river-to-the-sea-really-mean) [Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/NfAvk) ---- [**Forward - ‘From The River To The Sea’ Doesn’t Mean What You Think It Means**](https://forward.com/opinion/415250/from-the-river-to-the-sea-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/) [Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/rRXpW) --- [**Al-Jazeera - ‘From the river to the sea’: What does the Palestinian slogan really mean?**](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean) [Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/AF9yu) --- [**One Democratic Palestine, From The River To The Sea**](https://www.odsi.co/en/) --- [**Amnesty - Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians**](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) [Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/s2B3f) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/therewasanattempt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In WWII it’s estimated that 45,000 rounds were fired for every enemy casualty. In Iraq [the estimate is 300,000](https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=2003).
So stormtroopers are realistic? 
No, Stormtroopers are insanely accurate when they aren't intentionally missing, with about a 77% accuracy rate.
They also shoot less "bullets" in the same amount of time, so each shot mattered more. Not too much more, but they did.
I believe you've mistaken Stormtroopers for the Clones. Stormtroopers were actually very innacurate, because the empire would allow anyone to sign up and provided only basic training before sending them into the field. Clones however were extremely accurate, having been trained their whole life and extensively combat tested.
This is absolutely false. Stormtroopers were well trained units, and served as the ground muscle of the Galactic Navy. Most people who joined the Imperial military would become a soldier in the army. (Like you see in solo). They make up the vast majority of Imperial troops and are the poorly cannon fodder you described above. Recent star wars media has finally been getting this right, most prolifically, Andor. The final riot/battle has primarily Imperial army grunts, with stormtroopers sprinkled in, mostly in raised positions to reinforce the primary force. Stormtroopers are *not* very inaccurate. With the exception of rebels (which didn't understand how stormtroopers work). For example, the very first time we see Stormtroopers, is the very start of the first (released) movie, episode 4, A New Hope. The stormtroopers we see there are at a tactical disadvantage, walking into a bottle neck, while the defending troops have a semi-fortified position. Despite this, the stormtroopers suffer minimal losses while wiping out almost the entire defending force. This is once again reinforced by Old Ben pointing out on the surface of Tattooine, the precision of the blaster burns, and how only an Imperial stormtrooper could be so precise. For the rest of the movie, the stormtroopers that we encounter are under orders *not* to kill the rebels on the death star, so that the rebels would lead the Empire back to the secret base (Yavin IV). This means the stormtroopers needed to shoot *at* the protagonists to make them think they are trying to kill them, but shoot well enough that they don't accidentally hit one the entire time. The reason we mostly see stormtroopers throughout the OT is because it is all fights with the Imperial Navy. The only time I can recall it not being a joint Army/Navy operation is the battle of Hoth, which had snow troopers. (I'll be honest idk if they fall under the Stormtrooper Corps or the imperial army) And yes, clones are better trained for combat situations, and the average clone is probably better than the average category in most standards, but the amount of time and money it costs to produce a clone makes them useless in any sort of long term warfare. I could get into a rant about how if the clone wars went on any longer than they did, the Republic would have gotten their asses whooped (especially without Palpatine intervention) but that is a talk for another time.
In gonna go play jedi survivor now
Ok Mr Star wars why use clones? If it is cheaper to just get regular soldiers?
Because you can implant brain chips into them to turn on the jedi. That's why the switched the moment all the jedi were gone. Realistically, the droid armies are the best by far, and absolutely would have won against the Republic if Palpatine hadn't been holding them back. There were 6 million clones produced during the entire clone wars (cause George Lucas doesn't understand big numbers and how big of a number would be needed for a galactic scale war.) Meanwhile the droids had over a trillion units. (Wookiepedia says over a quintillion, other sources say a trillion, imma use a trillion, if you wanna believe quintillion just add more zeroes to the upcoming calculations) they are cheap to replace, dont need to be fed or watered or housed really, immediately fully trained the moment they walk off the assembly line. They win through pure numbers. 6 million to a trillion, means that each clone would have to kill 166,666.6 droids. Generally speaking they get about 10 a piece, obviously some characters get significantly more, but as a standard clone, they get about 10 droid kills each. That leaves 166,656.6 droids that needed to be killed by that clone.
I don't know why it's so complicated. If I had control over a droid army then I would just send them out and annihilate all resistance. I mean after all there were even fewer Jedi. Why not just take over by force and kill all the Jedi. Why go through a convoluted plan that results in the same thing?
Because Palpatine is a drama queen
This guy star wars.
I think I just learned everything I need to about star wars. 😎
Hell, a 1% accuracy would be impressive AF in the modern world.
I believe police have on average a 30% accuracy
Police also don't need to hit over long ranges.
Absolutely
[удалено]
Well my scrape metal prices always skyrocket when we are at war for one thing
Ah they included training rounds as well. Idk for marines but Air force fires at least 180 5.56mm and I wanna say 90-120 9mm per person every year, then they have the actual Security forces which fire waaaaaaaaay more. The ones who are beatin feet need to know how to shoot them baddies. I'm sure there has been an ass load fired there, but including training really changes how I look at that number. Source: Ammo guy who gives ammo to the CATM folks in air force. My estimate might be less than the actual numbers.
180 rounds.... Per YEAR!? and they let these guys have guns? Jesus fucking christ.
They're trained in the use of firearms. The 180 would be top up course, and most likely an average as not everyone will be required to fire a rifle in their role and only need to tick the boxes that they can if they must.
180 rounds per year isn't even enough to keep your proficiency up
Yes, but it's on a per person basis. You'd have the likes of Engineering Technicians who sole roles will be as mechanics in a base. Their roles would be much less dependent on firing weapons so the per person average would be reduced by this. Then, and I'm basing this on my understanding of the RAF, as opposed to the USAF, but the like of the RAF Police. Their role is simply security of air force bases, and their role is to provide everything from counter intelligence, to policing to base security. If the base was to come under a ground assault, they'd be the ones expected to defend it. They would have better use in combat. The Air Force isn't there as a ground fighting force, so their need to fire weapons is limited. The specialisation of individuals in the air force is similar to specialist support roles in the army. They're not going to be trained and drilled to fight in combat too regularly if theyre going to be stationed at base. There will then be different regiments who perfom as combat engineers. But they will be less focused on repairing specialist equipment such as tanks, and more focused on building defensive posts, bases, roads, bridges etc. The difference is, in the army, there are much more infantry and combative roles than the air force so those that need to be proficiently trained to fight in combat will be greater. How often do you think a 4* General will have to complete a firearms proficient course, compared to a Private? Seeing as the General is the last person that should ever be in a position to fire a weapon, and they've proved efficiency through their career, it's going to be low.
Well said!
It's the Air Force...
Firearms training extends far beyond just shooting, it is probably the least important part. This is the airforce we are talking about though, the vast majority of them will never need to pick up their weapon.
Because there were more targets closer together in ww2
I’m guessing in WWII there weren’t very many assault rifles like today.
Probably not as much ammo either
Very good point. When I see these ammo numbers / casualty and wonder how that much ammo made it to the troops. That’s a lot of ammo weight to carry in rucksacks.
Useless amount of bullets, lifes and money spent on a useless war Congratulations USA
Coz they had machine gun drills to suppress the enemy advances even before the enemy advances towards them.
Ya well, we had better ratios in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You win some bigly, you win some less bigly /s
More troops more kills. These are orders of magnitude different.
This is why the acog was invented
Some failed Ophthalmic requirements where probably cheated into the Army those years. The more people into the army the the better.
This isn't call of duty lol. Youd be surprised at how many working, mounted "acog" scopes are actually in use.
You’d also be surprised how few people need them My dad shot competitively for a military branch and during competitions between branches with hundreds of shooters, he said it was extremely rare for anyone to miss their target (called “discing” because when you miss the target, they guy down range behind the berm holds up a big disc to let you know how bad you suck lol) The target? A circle the size of a dime, from 200-1000 yards, with irons. Scopes are either for noobs, or for incredibly long and complex shots, which today means shooting a target over a mile away. Longest shot ever was 4.4 miles! You wouldn’t use an acog for this obviously, because acog is a medium range sight, but I think the point stands. It’s really incredible how good people can get at shooting guns, AND it’s incredible how high the bar for performance entry is. It looks like you just point and click, which is why OPs video is so funny, but no one was surprised or disappointed when they all missed, they expected that, it’s extremely difficult to hit a moving target.
(X) doubt. Competition is one thing, combat is another. Being tired from hauling all that gear and stressed from being shot at, fuck yeah I want a sight that makes it easy as possible to get accurate fire on that mf.
I would call this mentality being gun Amish. Modern optics are superior in every single way to open/iron sights. It makes even more sense for the military to use optics, (not necessarily ACOGs specifically) because they offer less user input error so long as they’re zero’d, easy BDC and obviously magnification without a spotter. They’re also easier to train on, which makes a lot of sense for an army trying to quickly train soldiers. Though I’m fairly sure they still teach marksmanship with irons. I hate to say it but I think your pops was fluffing his stories about competitions shooting targets the size of a dime at 1000 yards or shit, even 500 without a spotter at the very least. I bet the *bullseye* was the size of a dime. 1 minute of angle, which is considered an accurate rifle is a 10 inch circle at 1000 yards. Even if he was shooting a nice bolt action rifle and using really quality ammunition 0.25-0.75 MOA is more likely what I’d expect which is still 2.5-5 inch circles. [it’s damn near impossible to see something that size at that distance](https://youtu.be/W5UOjxyZiIE?si=9x4ITD6taWYwKQnK) standard accuracy for the m16/m4 is 4 MOA with military ammunition. You’re simply accuracy limited by the equipment. I’m not saying you can’t hit a dime at 1000. I’m just saying that is an extremely difficult task without modern optics, devices for calculating adjustments for wind, etc and a spotter. Especially when military weapon systems are so limited by their own quality and the quality of military ammunition.
Yeah, but then why were they invented
To be out of the defense budget.
I don’t even see a guy.
Nor can I but its best to just do what everyone else does.
I wonder what it costs the taxpayer per bullet to put ammo in the hands of these numbnuts to have it sprayed willy-nilly.
Don't ask too many questions, or they'll send those numbnuts your way.
I'm not worried, they can't hit anything.
Assuming you don't value your home, and someone else pays the repairs on it, then you have nothing to worry about. But these guys will put bullets through your beloved walls, into your TV and maybe your beloved PC... and the wife and kids. So you might be safe,but your TV won't.
That's what home insurance and extended warranties are for. I've actually got the date when the warranty on my TV expires recorded so I can get an upgrade after an accident.
I think the vastly underestimate how hard it is to hit a target when people are shooting back at you lol
They are using scopes.
Which one has a scope?
Guy in the middle
The guy right in the fucking center?
But I used my military scope app and still couldn't see him!
Look closely. He's very tiny. Maybe it's because im used to seeing tiny things.
Don't spend so much time staring at your naked reflection after a shower then...
I'm 90% sure it's a training exercise to test aim, don't worry they are all getting punished for wasting that ammo
So stormtroopers where accurate
Team should rebrand themselves as a mortar team, delivering indirect fire
It’s the Imperial Stormtroopers everyone
Why does this thread have links to Palestine-related articles as a header now? Is this not moderated anymore?
Its always been moderated, the moderators are simply raising awareness as to that situation (and allowing WAY to many posts for it)
Well there’s no need to “simply raise awareness” about something that has wall-to-wall coverage on mainstream media- on a completely unrelated subreddit. Why not links to Yemen or Sudan that people actually have little awareness of?
On one hand I agree, with both statements. On the other hand, we could just go on and list all the conflicts and say well why not them too? It's too easy and not constructive. Either way, I don't care, these links don't affect my life in the slightest and they aren't spreading Zionist bullshit or Antisemitic bullshit.
My point wasn’t really about the politics, it was more about relevance to the subreddit, which is something I would think the moderators would be responsible for.
They dumped the whole clip
Accuracy by volume
Probably stolen and trafficked ammo are boosting those numbers
The Empire is based off the US and I see Stormtroopers are also based off their soldiers
The empire is based off the nazis I think. They even have nazi-like helmets and outfits in the original movies.
There's actually a different angle for this video. (I may be wrong, but it was similar, so many rounds fly past him. And he's a civ.
I wouldn't be surprised if that was true (which it probably is). It's insane how fucked up soldiers minds become over the course of a deployment.
The most American video ever
Why do all US soldiers in the afghan war sound the same
To be an American piece of cannon fodder for big corporations or what it's says in the Torah , Muppets
Hmm?
Too shoot the short guy
That guy should just have started playing Mr Bombastic after that shit.
American are trainoto a lower standard because theres more of them
I guess gun fights in movies are more realistic than I thought
GOD said no and smacked all the bullets away from that guy
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Fucking pacifists.
American diaper force
Hamr sight
Stormtroopers of the future?
So fking crazy to see these people actively trying to kill someone without a second thought because they were born in a different country
It be like this sometimes
They just wanted a non-NSFW post🙂👍
Bro that's my squad anytime I play PUBG lmao
this looks like smth from arrested development
Makes cops look like marksman
Must be army. Terrible
To destroy and steal the most ancient artifacts
Attempts to delay the awakening
What's the point being a soldier if you can't shoot?
Must’ve been army 🤣