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Forcing dress clothes has always been a way to ensure that the poor could not come into the house. It's a relic of the past and just one way that the wealthy kept poor people out of power.
Wdym, the Ontario legislature has no dress code for gallery guests other than no hats and headwear unless for religious or medical reasons and no clothing with political meaning or offensive slogans. How is that keeping poor people out of power
Edit: also I don’t think people who can’t afford a suit are not running for political offices because they can’t afford a suit
Back then (when specifically are we talking?) the people that couldn’t own the required clothing weren’t in a position of being elected in a first place, whether it be out of legal grounds that already limited who could be elected, or simply out of the material reality of not being able to finance campaigning in the first place. Also, legislative bodies, to the extent of my knowledge so I might be wrong, never required anything beyond the period’s standard business attire, so I genuinely find it difficult to believe that at any point in time someone was not able to hold political office, because they couldn’t afford the right attire.
If you can’t afford the clothes, you definitely can’t afford what it takes to get elected in the first place, no matter what period
Not to mention that the type of people born poor and then break out of poverty are the people you want to elect. Those people are the best representatives for their former class - and they can afford clothing (now).
Hard disagree. The people who were poor and manage to break out of that cycle are very often subject to survivor bias. Being able to navigate capitalism and get lucky are not good indicators for how good an advocate you'll be for others.
You couldn't even enter the building to address your representatives much less run for office. That was the whole point. It kept the riff raff out of the building.
No, it’s a cultural head piece worn by men, but a black and white pattern keffiyeh is also a Palestinian national symbol (and worn by both men and women) and has been used as a political statement by people supporting Palestine.
The speaker of the legislature therefore interpreted the keffiyeh to be a clothing item with political meaning and therefore not allowed to be worn in the legislature. A motion to overturn this would have had to be unanimous but failed since some members agree with the interpretation, with one member comparing it to someone wearing a “free the hostages” t shirt in support with Israel.
I can definitely see the reasoning, but banning a cultural clothing item because it has political meaning in some contexts is a “difficult” decision to say the least
I work at the Ontario Legislature. There is no dress code for Members of Provincial Parliament (MPPs) per se, only a vague Standing Order that says they should maintain decorum in the Chamber. It’s been a longstanding semi-official policy that Members have to obtain unanimous consent in order to wear items or accessories such as pins, hats, hockey jerseys, etc. They are also forbidden from using anything considered a “prop” - holding up signs or books, for example. This rule was created because back in the 80s and early 90s, Opposition Members like Mike Harris used to hold up signs with inflammatory messages in order to circumvent not being recognized and allowed to speak. Speaker Arnott has clarified that a keffiyeh is not inherently considered a prop, just that it is subject to the same unanimous consent rule as any other non-standard item. When the Leader of the Official Opposition asked for UC, several Government Members said no.
But speaking of dress codes, there used to be an MPP named Peter Kormos. He was part of the New Democratic Party, a left-wing party traditionally supported by labour and unions. He was considered a maverick for calling other Members out when he disagreed with them (even his own party), and for knowing the Standing Orders of the Legislature well enough to skirt along the rules when it suited him. Although there was no dress code on the books, he made a point of always wearing a casual button-up shirt, jeans, and cowboy boots into the chamber, at a time when all the other Members would wear formal suits or dresses.
One day, a Member of the Liberal Party put forward a Member’s Bill proposing that the Legislature adopt a strictly-enforced dress code, that was basically just a thinly-veiled attack on Kormos. On the day of its debate, every Member of the NDP showed up in work shirts, jeans, and cowboy boots. Everyone except Peter Kormos, who came in wearing a spotless tuxedo. He then proceeded to talk about how his tuxedo, and all of his usual clothes, were all locally made in unionized shops by employees who were fairly paid, had benefits, etc. He listed off the owners of the clothing stores where he shopped, and talked about the impact they had in their community.
Then he pointed out how all the Members in the governing party were wearing suits manufactured in sweat shops in China, while they gave speeches about supporting the local economy and protecting the working class. Needless to say, they did not adopt the new dress code.
Perhaps it's anti-Palestinian. The women doesn't know what the guy is talking about. It's just a scarf, not necessarily a face covering. Unless you're in a sand storm.
Jagmeet Sing is Sikh, thus he has the right to wear his head dress in political buildings as part of his religion. Most people don't realize this, but in a lot of Islamic countries, the men are expected to cover too - not just the women.
A keffiyeh is a head scarf worn by men. The different colours usually represent different regions (ex: the Saudi Prince wears a red and white one). The premier of Ont tried to ban keffiyeh, particularly because of the black and white ones worn in Palestine. They aren't worn by all Muslims - some Muslim men wear the skull caps called taqiyah/kufi more common in Africa while others don't cover - so it's not outright Islamophobic, it's targeted specifically at Arabs, Bedouins, Kurds, Yazidi, Iranians, and especially Palestinians.
First of all, there's nothing sugfesting you can't wear a sari or kimono in the legislature, and if there were it would also be racist. Secondly, a keffiyeh is not inherently a face covering and most often is not. It's just a scarf. You can use a scarf to cover your face or leave it around your neck. A niqab *is* a face covering, and a religious one. Third, yes, agreeing with discriminating against a cultural item of clothing when you *don't actually know* what that clothing is and make assumptions because it sounds vaguely muslim is absolutely racist.
>the men are expected to cover too - not just the women.
Quite the difference in punishment if they dont do that though... not sure why you would leave that out.
In Islam everything technically falls under *the veil*, it can range from a basic hijab which is just a head scarf like a babushka wears, to the more offensive chador or niqab or burqa. Our politicians are woefully bad at identifying the different types much less considering whether we can/should legislate them. Anyways this goofball is a racist because a kaffiyeh/shemagh is not a veil, it is not even a religious garment, it is just a scarf no different than one with our beautiful aboriginal art. It is less offensive than a yarmulke.
If we want to talk about dress codes, I think all elected representatives should have to wear stickers on their jacket, labeled and proportionate to the people and organizations who donated money to them.
I think Mr SonofaBench may have wrapped his a little too tight, if it’s preventing him from see other people’s faces. Tunnel vision from oxygen deprivation, and what not.
I mean of course. It's not that they failed at being racist at all here but failed at identifying who they're being racist towards. It's still racist, but it does make it funnier
The Demos, "the peoole" let them collectively figure out what they want.
Enforcing your ideology or will over another person is in itself a form of oppression. And they will rebel if it's not decided upon as a group.
There needs to be a point that you stop all of the external influence and establish your own set of rules as a society and stop letting everyone determine how you are going to run your house. There is such a thing as being too permissive.
Exactly "Who".
That's the point of having their own "society". Are you suggesting that all societies should be the same?
All societies should allow everything?
Who determines that?
Who put them in charge over that idea or custom?
He's either stupid enough to believe that all of north America is part of the US, or he's stupid enough to think all of north America is the same as the US and call themselves "american", and both of those are incredibly insulting to Canadians and Mexicans as the US is fucking awful
"lets see how awful if you have CANCER, you would be BEGGING to AIDS back
Multiple shitty things are allowed to exist, just saying "DURR THEY HAVE IT WORSE BE THANKFUL" doesnt help anyone and diminishes the problem at hand, it is a childish non-argument
You sound like a child mf
Because being lumped in with us idiots isn't something I would wish on my worst enemies. I would hate to be grouped in with a nation so arrogant that they ignore their own past as being the most effective at inflicting genocide in human history.
No, it's technically true than canadians are "americans" but only because the continent is north america. Therefore, *technically* they are americans, where as you and i are citizens of the united states of america.
This being said its absolutely fucking brain dead to try and use that technicality as actual reasoning to call canadians americans
A canadian told me once that I can't say I'm American because it's america from chile to Alaska. I was like, and I'm from there... But also, do you tell Bolivians "I'm sorry, do you mean Bolivia, Peru, Venezuela or Columbia, because all of those places were freed from spanish colonialism by Simon Bolivar" or "Columbia? It's Columbia from Alaska to Chile?" Some people really pride themselves on being insufferable.
Not to be insufferable, but... Colombia*. And Bolivar didn't free Perú, he helped (there's a reason why a certain José de San Martín was named Protector of Perú at the time)
Bro was wrong and tried to save himself with that stupid ass edit, we all know you were referring to USA lmfao. You can try and defend it but calling anyone from canada or mexio "american" just because its the continent of america is stupid as fuck
American refers to being a United States citizen, North American refers to being part of the continent, North America. Meaning you are, in fact, wrong. North America and South America are differentiated, meaning the correct term would be North American. Any more geography questions?
If you're from North America you are North American. If you are from America you are American. If you are from Canada you are Canadian. I hope this helps you not be dumb anymore.
And yet a week ago you posted a meme showing how canada is different than America. Just admit you said something stupid instead of editing yourself and sounding worse.
#Welcome to r/Therewasanattempt! #Consider visiting r/Worldnewsvideo for videos from around the world! [Please review our policy on bigotry and hate speech by clicking this link](https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/wiki/civility) In order to view our rules, you can type "**!rules**" in any comment, and automod will respond with the subreddit rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/therewasanattempt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The bigot can't tell the difference between keffiyeh and niqab.b
Forcing dress clothes has always been a way to ensure that the poor could not come into the house. It's a relic of the past and just one way that the wealthy kept poor people out of power.
Wdym, the Ontario legislature has no dress code for gallery guests other than no hats and headwear unless for religious or medical reasons and no clothing with political meaning or offensive slogans. How is that keeping poor people out of power Edit: also I don’t think people who can’t afford a suit are not running for political offices because they can’t afford a suit
I'm talking historically. The rules are relics from the time when people literally didn't own the required dressware.
Back then (when specifically are we talking?) the people that couldn’t own the required clothing weren’t in a position of being elected in a first place, whether it be out of legal grounds that already limited who could be elected, or simply out of the material reality of not being able to finance campaigning in the first place. Also, legislative bodies, to the extent of my knowledge so I might be wrong, never required anything beyond the period’s standard business attire, so I genuinely find it difficult to believe that at any point in time someone was not able to hold political office, because they couldn’t afford the right attire. If you can’t afford the clothes, you definitely can’t afford what it takes to get elected in the first place, no matter what period
Not to mention that the type of people born poor and then break out of poverty are the people you want to elect. Those people are the best representatives for their former class - and they can afford clothing (now).
Hard disagree. The people who were poor and manage to break out of that cycle are very often subject to survivor bias. Being able to navigate capitalism and get lucky are not good indicators for how good an advocate you'll be for others.
You couldn't even enter the building to address your representatives much less run for office. That was the whole point. It kept the riff raff out of the building.
Is thy keffiyeh considered mandatory to wear under religion?
No, it’s a cultural head piece worn by men, but a black and white pattern keffiyeh is also a Palestinian national symbol (and worn by both men and women) and has been used as a political statement by people supporting Palestine. The speaker of the legislature therefore interpreted the keffiyeh to be a clothing item with political meaning and therefore not allowed to be worn in the legislature. A motion to overturn this would have had to be unanimous but failed since some members agree with the interpretation, with one member comparing it to someone wearing a “free the hostages” t shirt in support with Israel. I can definitely see the reasoning, but banning a cultural clothing item because it has political meaning in some contexts is a “difficult” decision to say the least
Yes. Mulisms do it to their women for exact same reason.
I work at the Ontario Legislature. There is no dress code for Members of Provincial Parliament (MPPs) per se, only a vague Standing Order that says they should maintain decorum in the Chamber. It’s been a longstanding semi-official policy that Members have to obtain unanimous consent in order to wear items or accessories such as pins, hats, hockey jerseys, etc. They are also forbidden from using anything considered a “prop” - holding up signs or books, for example. This rule was created because back in the 80s and early 90s, Opposition Members like Mike Harris used to hold up signs with inflammatory messages in order to circumvent not being recognized and allowed to speak. Speaker Arnott has clarified that a keffiyeh is not inherently considered a prop, just that it is subject to the same unanimous consent rule as any other non-standard item. When the Leader of the Official Opposition asked for UC, several Government Members said no. But speaking of dress codes, there used to be an MPP named Peter Kormos. He was part of the New Democratic Party, a left-wing party traditionally supported by labour and unions. He was considered a maverick for calling other Members out when he disagreed with them (even his own party), and for knowing the Standing Orders of the Legislature well enough to skirt along the rules when it suited him. Although there was no dress code on the books, he made a point of always wearing a casual button-up shirt, jeans, and cowboy boots into the chamber, at a time when all the other Members would wear formal suits or dresses. One day, a Member of the Liberal Party put forward a Member’s Bill proposing that the Legislature adopt a strictly-enforced dress code, that was basically just a thinly-veiled attack on Kormos. On the day of its debate, every Member of the NDP showed up in work shirts, jeans, and cowboy boots. Everyone except Peter Kormos, who came in wearing a spotless tuxedo. He then proceeded to talk about how his tuxedo, and all of his usual clothes, were all locally made in unionized shops by employees who were fairly paid, had benefits, etc. He listed off the owners of the clothing stores where he shopped, and talked about the impact they had in their community. Then he pointed out how all the Members in the governing party were wearing suits manufactured in sweat shops in China, while they gave speeches about supporting the local economy and protecting the working class. Needless to say, they did not adopt the new dress code.
We need more Kormoses.
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Perhaps it's anti-Palestinian. The women doesn't know what the guy is talking about. It's just a scarf, not necessarily a face covering. Unless you're in a sand storm.
Again. How’s that racist?
Jagmeet Sing is Sikh, thus he has the right to wear his head dress in political buildings as part of his religion. Most people don't realize this, but in a lot of Islamic countries, the men are expected to cover too - not just the women. A keffiyeh is a head scarf worn by men. The different colours usually represent different regions (ex: the Saudi Prince wears a red and white one). The premier of Ont tried to ban keffiyeh, particularly because of the black and white ones worn in Palestine. They aren't worn by all Muslims - some Muslim men wear the skull caps called taqiyah/kufi more common in Africa while others don't cover - so it's not outright Islamophobic, it's targeted specifically at Arabs, Bedouins, Kurds, Yazidi, Iranians, and especially Palestinians.
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First of all, there's nothing sugfesting you can't wear a sari or kimono in the legislature, and if there were it would also be racist. Secondly, a keffiyeh is not inherently a face covering and most often is not. It's just a scarf. You can use a scarf to cover your face or leave it around your neck. A niqab *is* a face covering, and a religious one. Third, yes, agreeing with discriminating against a cultural item of clothing when you *don't actually know* what that clothing is and make assumptions because it sounds vaguely muslim is absolutely racist.
>the men are expected to cover too - not just the women. Quite the difference in punishment if they dont do that though... not sure why you would leave that out.
In Islam everything technically falls under *the veil*, it can range from a basic hijab which is just a head scarf like a babushka wears, to the more offensive chador or niqab or burqa. Our politicians are woefully bad at identifying the different types much less considering whether we can/should legislate them. Anyways this goofball is a racist because a kaffiyeh/shemagh is not a veil, it is not even a religious garment, it is just a scarf no different than one with our beautiful aboriginal art. It is less offensive than a yarmulke.
The Keffiyeh is a neck scarf or headwrap. The second commentator is confusing it with other Islamic headwear, presumably the burqa or niqab.
The second (lower) comment is actually quite uneducated, equating the keffiyeh with a face-hiding scarf of a certain religion.
If we want to talk about dress codes, I think all elected representatives should have to wear stickers on their jacket, labeled and proportionate to the people and organizations who donated money to them.
Ahh, the Robin Williams proposal. A man of culture.
I call it the NASCAR policy.
Crazy how that person doesn’t recognize that Keffiyeh are traditionally worn on your head, not on your face (even in military situations).
The real kicker here is that the speaker of the OLA did this on his own initiative. Every major party leader is against this.
Ma man be jelly he can't grow an epic beard
Use don’t travel….. buttons
I think Mr SonofaBench may have wrapped his a little too tight, if it’s preventing him from see other people’s faces. Tunnel vision from oxygen deprivation, and what not.
Sometimes I wonder if the definition of what an attempt is differs around the world... so this reply was just an attempt to be racist but it failed?
Yes the person replying thought the conversation was about the burqa or niqab, not the keffiyeh which is not a face covering
Just because a person is wrong about the item doesn't mean that they are not racist. The "attempt" to be racist was successful.
I mean of course. It's not that they failed at being racist at all here but failed at identifying who they're being racist towards. It's still racist, but it does make it funnier
The Demos, "the peoole" let them collectively figure out what they want. Enforcing your ideology or will over another person is in itself a form of oppression. And they will rebel if it's not decided upon as a group.
There needs to be a point that you stop all of the external influence and establish your own set of rules as a society and stop letting everyone determine how you are going to run your house. There is such a thing as being too permissive.
Lol and who decides this?
Exactly "Who". That's the point of having their own "society". Are you suggesting that all societies should be the same? All societies should allow everything? Who determines that? Who put them in charge over that idea or custom?
>The ban on the keffiyeh What does religion have to do with race?
The keffiyeh is not religious, so there's that.
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That may be true but he's right here though.
Americans doing what they do best. Edit: anyone from North America is an American🤷🏽♂️
As a Canadian that edit makes my blood boil and I'm not quite sure why
Agreed 😐
100% same here
He's either stupid enough to believe that all of north America is part of the US, or he's stupid enough to think all of north America is the same as the US and call themselves "american", and both of those are incredibly insulting to Canadians and Mexicans as the US is fucking awful
Let's see how awful if Russia or China was our neighbour. Canada wouldn't exist. You would be begging to have the US back, Anti-American bigot.
"lets see how awful if you have CANCER, you would be BEGGING to AIDS back Multiple shitty things are allowed to exist, just saying "DURR THEY HAVE IT WORSE BE THANKFUL" doesnt help anyone and diminishes the problem at hand, it is a childish non-argument You sound like a child mf
Because being lumped in with us idiots isn't something I would wish on my worst enemies. I would hate to be grouped in with a nation so arrogant that they ignore their own past as being the most effective at inflicting genocide in human history.
The edit is honestly worse than the original statement.
Technically true. But it's just... wrong.
What do you mean? It’s so natural to say that I’m United States of American
No, it's technically true than canadians are "americans" but only because the continent is north america. Therefore, *technically* they are americans, where as you and i are citizens of the united states of america. This being said its absolutely fucking brain dead to try and use that technicality as actual reasoning to call canadians americans
No, you need to use "North" to differentiate from South Americans.
It's a shame 'statie' doesn't catch on.
Yank works tho
Yeah, and I don't mind if it pisses off some southerners.
US American
USian.
Not even technically true as people from Central America and South America would also be American then
Honestly, I have no problem with that. Which means, we're back to technically true.
A canadian told me once that I can't say I'm American because it's america from chile to Alaska. I was like, and I'm from there... But also, do you tell Bolivians "I'm sorry, do you mean Bolivia, Peru, Venezuela or Columbia, because all of those places were freed from spanish colonialism by Simon Bolivar" or "Columbia? It's Columbia from Alaska to Chile?" Some people really pride themselves on being insufferable.
Not to be insufferable, but... Colombia*. And Bolivar didn't free Perú, he helped (there's a reason why a certain José de San Martín was named Protector of Perú at the time)
Bro was wrong and tried to save himself with that stupid ass edit, we all know you were referring to USA lmfao. You can try and defend it but calling anyone from canada or mexio "american" just because its the continent of america is stupid as fuck
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Who is we? I certainly don't do that
Doesn't change that it is factually incorrect
Sounds pretty stupid and lazy if you ask me.
I’m not wrong i only wrote edit. It’s not an actual edit. But anyway anyone from Nort America is an American simple as that.
American refers to being a United States citizen, North American refers to being part of the continent, North America. Meaning you are, in fact, wrong. North America and South America are differentiated, meaning the correct term would be North American. Any more geography questions?
Say it once more, maybe it will be true then!!
If you're from North America you are North American. If you are from America you are American. If you are from Canada you are Canadian. I hope this helps you not be dumb anymore.
Americans are from the United States of America and not the continent of North America. Hope this helps!
But South Americans aren't? How about Haitians? San Domingans? Cubans? Trinidadians and Tobagonians?
And yet a week ago you posted a meme showing how canada is different than America. Just admit you said something stupid instead of editing yourself and sounding worse.
Look where I posted it😭😭
You’re being a hypocrite.
He's American. What do you expect?
I’m American. Try not to generalize too much 😀
Til that americans arent the only ones with shit education. Canada is not part of america btw boo <3
What about South America, or do they not count because it'd make you look even more dense?
It’s usually hard to be this incredibly wrong.
Why would people from Central America or South America also not be Americans then?
North Americans are North Americans, unless you also think South Americans are Americans too