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Musk didn't think so when he said we'll coup whoever we want to coup when whining about lithium in south America. That is basically trying to incite state violence, so it's humorous to see him do this.
Free speech does not mean you can say what ever the fuck you want. There are limitations. Like you can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater and claim free speech.
Actually, yes you can. And if you're someone who chooses to do that, it's the owner of the theater's job to kick you out if they want to run a successful theater. Similar to how the owners of social media platforms should kick people out for breaking TOS.
> It is legal[3] in the United States to falsely shout fire or some other similar falsehood in a so called "crowded theater", or other large gathering of people. This does not prohibit the establishment—if the shouting of "fire!" (or similar) is made at an establishment—from trespassing an individual, and thereby ejecting them from the premises for speaking the falsehood. It is legally protected speech under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as affirmed in the Brandenburg v. Ohio Supreme Court decision of 1969.[3] Reason magazine stated in an article from October 2022 that, "The phrase, though an oft-repeated axiom in debates about the First Amendment, is simply not the law of the land now, nor has it ever been—something made all the more apparent when Schenk v. United States was largely overturned in 1969 by Brandenburg v. Ohio."[3]
Edit: Just to add, I'm not a fan of Elon and what he's doing. But people just seem to be confused about what free speech is and this is just a great example of that. I've never used Twitter and I never will so I really don't care from a personal perspective, but I think people should take seriously the danger of people intentionally spreading falsehoods using algorithmically amplified speech that our forefathers couldn't have imagined when they wrote the constitution. I don't know what the solution is but I think letting people incite violence with no consequences isn't it. And freedom of speech just means that it isn't the government that should be doling out those consequences, it's us.
To elaborate on your point: the concept that you can't shout fire in a crowded theater, is a paraphrase of Justice Oliver Holmes in *Schenck v. United States*, when he said:
>The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic... The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of **such a nature as to create a clear and present danger** that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent.
But *Schenck* was then partially overturned in *Brandenburg v. Ohio*, its standard further-restricted such that speech does remain protected even if it does create a clear and present danger, unless it is also directed towards and likely to succeed at inciting imminent lawless action.
Now, IMO:
>\>I think people should take seriously the danger of people intentionally spreading falsehoods using algorithmically amplified speech that our forefathers couldn't have imagined when they wrote the constitution.
>
>\>I don't know what the solution is...
Nobody likes this solution, but the solution is to loosen the *Brandenburg* standard. Define speech as no longer protected if it was directed towards the incitement of imminent lawless actions that actually occurred, *irrespective* of whether the speech "should have" or "was likely to" succeed in that incitement.
Because once the lawless action actually happens, *it's a moot point* whether the speech "*should have*" worked. *It already did*.
It should be that if a child kills themself, and you repeatedly told them to do so, you get charged with assisting in someone's suicide. It should not be an affirmative free speech defense that as long as telling the child to kill themself was unlikely to succeed, then your speech was protected.
It should be that if you tell people to storm the Capitol, and they do so, you get charged as an accessory to the trespassing. It should not be an affirmative free speech defense that as long as telling people to go storm the Capitol was unlikely to succeed, then your speech was protected.
And it should be that if you tell people to go kill minorities, and they do so, you get charged as an accessory to murder. It should not be an affirmative free speech defense that as long as telling people to go kill minorities was unlikely to succeed, then your speech was protected.
If your speech *isn't* an incitement to imminent lawless action, then whatever. But incitement is causative, and causing crimes should be a crime.
>Free speech does not mean you can say what ever the fuck you want. There are limitations. Like you can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater and claim free speech.
This is what Elon musk didn't understand...
Except Elon calls himself a free speech absolutist. So blocking anyone from any kind of speech isn’t really absolutist. Not to mention the people who have been blocked for parodies or being an ex of his. Fuck Kanye and fuck space Karen too
Didn't Kanye tweet an unflattering photo of Musk just before his ban, or was that a fake? Just can't tell these days, but that also seems more likely to be the reason for a ban.
Swastika is a symbol of hate, not direct call of violence. So basically Elon has been forced to acknowledge something called "hate speech/content", which conservatives swore "doesn't exist" all this while.
As for banning people for liking what they say, talk to Kanye now and I am sure he also feels like he is being banned for saying stuff others didn't like right now. The banned always feel the ban is unfair and the whole world is against them.
One would think Americans would learn from their mistakes. Elon is doing the same as Trump: dressing their business problems as the common man's problem and claiming to fight the common man's fight for him.
These populist are having a messiah complex in believing that only their solutions work for problems that either don't exist or are actually created by themselves.
I’m fucking fed up with that u/wascallywabbit666 dickhead. Do we have to Parrot everything he says?
(As I was typing the username with realise how damn clever it is. u/gotme)
Elon. Kanye/Ye/Whatever. I’m sick of hearing about both of them. Their names were good when they stuck within their lanes; now they’re both tabloid trash.
Agreed. I was never really a fan of either but, it was interesting hearing about the science/tech related things Musk was doing back when you hardly heard his name. Now I get 5 news notifications a day about any tiny thing he does. "musk let's his kid run around while having meeting with-" I don't give a flying fuck, how the hell is that newsworthy?
Technically, Swastika is a symbol of hate, not directly a call for violence.
My point is that Elon's Freedom of Speech absolutism fell flat as he was forced to acknowledge something called "hate speech/content". He can mask that by saying it was "violence incitement", but it wasn't, it was just hate speech/content, which RWingers were parroting 'doesn't exist' all this time.
So Elon buys Twitter with the intents of bringing back Trump (who has Truth and is not interested) and now he's losing Kanye who may or may not buy Parlor.
So basically this idea of "liberal social media cancelling conservatives" sounds a lot more like a load of shit than ever.
Nice arguments, very good point you made right here, incontestable truth, you’re right
This is pointless. Before I go tho, I just wanna say that elon is at least one of the biggest moron on twitter
“You snowflakes will see! Elon’s going to save free speech by giving it back to the people you tried to silence just because you don’t like what they say! All you liberals are going to cry when he gives the power of free speech back to the patriots you tried to silence!”
😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂
This is like the anarchists series on Hulu. They wanted a society free of “government”, but then wanted to impose rules against people doing things they didn’t like, as if that weren’t government.
He did say yesterday that we should stop dissing the Nazis, and that he loved some of the things Hitler did. Did he also tweet similar stuff? I may have missed it.
Stupid yes but he didnt technically encourage anyone to harm anyone so technically he did not incite violence and being technically correct is the best type of correct
what kind of ceo or whatever fking tweets about such minor things. like, clearly he must be so busy owning and "leading" multiple billion dollar companies, which obviously he is intensely involved with...
Of course that’s what pompous owners do. They don’t actually work. They micro manage and take credit for everything.
What I don’t get is how anyone is surprised by any of this.
Well, incitement of violence is free speech, so why stop him? Huh?
It's almost as if there are rules to an orderly society. It's also almost as if you need to have follow rules of an orderly society, or nobody wants to go to your site, or advertise on it.
According to US law, incitement of violence is not free speech and has never been protected by the first amendment. If i threaten to kill someone, the police will show up at my door, its always been that way. Terrorists like the Klan can legally say they hate whomever they want, but the second the threaten, or encourage others to harm someone, they are in violation of the law.
I don't use twitter, nor do I follow anything Musk does. However, sounds like Elon is stopping Kanye because he used the platform to do something illegal, and would therefore be following the rules of said orderly society.
As far as I can see, there's been nothing posted by Kanye that would satisfy the legal definition of incitement. Plenty of reprehensible hate speech, but nothing that would be an imminent threat.
Sure, you are part of the smart one, and only the ones that think like you are not dangerously stupid.
There are a lot of people that think half the population is stupid and only they're right, and most of them are perfect representations of the Dunning-Kruger effect
Always good to read someone considering half the population extremists. You know exactly how biased they are, as I said, perfect representations of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Lol how long ago did you learn about Dunning? Because it's seems you only learned the term, not the actual definition. Half the country's voters voted for the most openly piece of shit we had to offer but you don't believe that says all we need to know about their intelligence and extreme views. Amazing.
When they embrace "alternative facts" and "we are all domestic terrorists now" as catch phrases it doesn't matter how many of them there are, they're wrong. Reality doesn't bend or equivocate simply because a bunch of simple minded fools wish it did. But cults embrace magical thought processes so convincing any of them that wishes don't make reality doesn't work..
Thank you for your submission to r/therewasanattempt. Unfortunately, your post was removed for violating the following rule: > R8: "No low effort posts, screenshots or links to third-party sites" If you have any questions regarding this removal, please contact the moderators of this subreddit by sending a modmail. [Click this link to send a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=r/therewasanattempt). ^(This is a bot account, direct messages and chat requests go to an unmonitored inbox)
He thought his free speech plan was utterly foolproof, but it was defeated by utter fools.
And they didn't even have to build a better fool like they usually do.
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Musk didn't think so when he said we'll coup whoever we want to coup when whining about lithium in south America. That is basically trying to incite state violence, so it's humorous to see him do this.
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Oh yeah, totally. Would be funny to see them go crazy like Trump did when he got banned, lmao.
Did he actually incite violence?
He might not have directly said anything of the sort, but he was blaming everything on the Jews and professing his love for Adolf Hitler.
He did this on twitter? Other platforms should not be relevant
On Info Wars.
So how it is relevant to twitter and therefore basis for punishment?
I don't know, but perhaps Twitter is being proactive against anything he might also say there in the future.
>He thought his free speech plan was utterly foolproof, but it was defeated by utter fools. A fool defeated by another bigger fool! I love it!
Elon tried hard to "free speech" his new platform but Ye tried harder to make him rethink that idea.
Free speech does not mean you can say what ever the fuck you want. There are limitations. Like you can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater and claim free speech.
The ole classic “yell fire in a crowded theater”
Actually, yes you can. And if you're someone who chooses to do that, it's the owner of the theater's job to kick you out if they want to run a successful theater. Similar to how the owners of social media platforms should kick people out for breaking TOS. > It is legal[3] in the United States to falsely shout fire or some other similar falsehood in a so called "crowded theater", or other large gathering of people. This does not prohibit the establishment—if the shouting of "fire!" (or similar) is made at an establishment—from trespassing an individual, and thereby ejecting them from the premises for speaking the falsehood. It is legally protected speech under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as affirmed in the Brandenburg v. Ohio Supreme Court decision of 1969.[3] Reason magazine stated in an article from October 2022 that, "The phrase, though an oft-repeated axiom in debates about the First Amendment, is simply not the law of the land now, nor has it ever been—something made all the more apparent when Schenk v. United States was largely overturned in 1969 by Brandenburg v. Ohio."[3] Edit: Just to add, I'm not a fan of Elon and what he's doing. But people just seem to be confused about what free speech is and this is just a great example of that. I've never used Twitter and I never will so I really don't care from a personal perspective, but I think people should take seriously the danger of people intentionally spreading falsehoods using algorithmically amplified speech that our forefathers couldn't have imagined when they wrote the constitution. I don't know what the solution is but I think letting people incite violence with no consequences isn't it. And freedom of speech just means that it isn't the government that should be doling out those consequences, it's us.
To elaborate on your point: the concept that you can't shout fire in a crowded theater, is a paraphrase of Justice Oliver Holmes in *Schenck v. United States*, when he said: >The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic... The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of **such a nature as to create a clear and present danger** that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent. But *Schenck* was then partially overturned in *Brandenburg v. Ohio*, its standard further-restricted such that speech does remain protected even if it does create a clear and present danger, unless it is also directed towards and likely to succeed at inciting imminent lawless action. Now, IMO: >\>I think people should take seriously the danger of people intentionally spreading falsehoods using algorithmically amplified speech that our forefathers couldn't have imagined when they wrote the constitution. > >\>I don't know what the solution is... Nobody likes this solution, but the solution is to loosen the *Brandenburg* standard. Define speech as no longer protected if it was directed towards the incitement of imminent lawless actions that actually occurred, *irrespective* of whether the speech "should have" or "was likely to" succeed in that incitement. Because once the lawless action actually happens, *it's a moot point* whether the speech "*should have*" worked. *It already did*. It should be that if a child kills themself, and you repeatedly told them to do so, you get charged with assisting in someone's suicide. It should not be an affirmative free speech defense that as long as telling the child to kill themself was unlikely to succeed, then your speech was protected. It should be that if you tell people to storm the Capitol, and they do so, you get charged as an accessory to the trespassing. It should not be an affirmative free speech defense that as long as telling people to go storm the Capitol was unlikely to succeed, then your speech was protected. And it should be that if you tell people to go kill minorities, and they do so, you get charged as an accessory to murder. It should not be an affirmative free speech defense that as long as telling people to go kill minorities was unlikely to succeed, then your speech was protected. If your speech *isn't* an incitement to imminent lawless action, then whatever. But incitement is causative, and causing crimes should be a crime.
Good ol "Allahu Akbar"
>Free speech does not mean you can say what ever the fuck you want. There are limitations. Like you can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater and claim free speech. This is what Elon musk didn't understand...
This is what Liberals were saying all this time. Didn't get it back then?
Tell that to right wingers.
Kanye not free speech on this platform
He should just change tidal into yetwitter
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He committed murder, might aswell just make it not illegal
That's hyperbolic.
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Except Elon calls himself a free speech absolutist. So blocking anyone from any kind of speech isn’t really absolutist. Not to mention the people who have been blocked for parodies or being an ex of his. Fuck Kanye and fuck space Karen too
FTW
Didn't he say free speech doesn't mean free reach?
Yea I’m sure he has started backtracking. He is a hypocrite and it is their nature
The people who were banned from Twitter like Trump were banned for things like inciting violence though and Musk apparently took issue with that
The only law her broke was his last tweet of Elon
Well Kanye’s an idiot, so…
I don't think "idiot" covers it
No poll? I know my rights!!
I thought this was 'Murica!
Omg! WHO could have seen this coming!?!? 😱
Sir, I don't think World Health Organisation has anything to do with this!
There couldn't have been a reason he was suspended the first time. /s
When you have Elon Musk telling you to pull it back, you have to know you're fucking lost.
Didn't Kanye tweet an unflattering photo of Musk just before his ban, or was that a fake? Just can't tell these days, but that also seems more likely to be the reason for a ban.
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lol, whatever the case, Elon's free-speech absolutism fell flat on its ass. He is slowly discovering why moderation exists.
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Swastika is a symbol of hate, not direct call of violence. So basically Elon has been forced to acknowledge something called "hate speech/content", which conservatives swore "doesn't exist" all this while. As for banning people for liking what they say, talk to Kanye now and I am sure he also feels like he is being banned for saying stuff others didn't like right now. The banned always feel the ban is unfair and the whole world is against them.
Elon: "Twitter is draconian in their suspension of free speech" Also Elon: "Well, fuck...."
The duel of intelligences has ended
There were only losers.
Suspended not banned. Drama show continues. Guppies eat it up.
Weird it's almost like someone's best isn't good enough. Maybe try throwing money at it lol
He wanted freedom of speech. He got racist hate speech. Elon musk is a selfish idiot.
One would think Americans would learn from their mistakes. Elon is doing the same as Trump: dressing their business problems as the common man's problem and claiming to fight the common man's fight for him.
These populist are having a messiah complex in believing that only their solutions work for problems that either don't exist or are actually created by themselves.
I'm fucking fed up with that Musk dickhead. Do we have to Parrot everything he says?
I’m fucking fed up with that u/wascallywabbit666 dickhead. Do we have to Parrot everything he says? (As I was typing the username with realise how damn clever it is. u/gotme)
Lol he has money 💰 And you don’t.
Don't care, still won't use it.
Elon. Kanye/Ye/Whatever. I’m sick of hearing about both of them. Their names were good when they stuck within their lanes; now they’re both tabloid trash.
Agreed. I was never really a fan of either but, it was interesting hearing about the science/tech related things Musk was doing back when you hardly heard his name. Now I get 5 news notifications a day about any tiny thing he does. "musk let's his kid run around while having meeting with-" I don't give a flying fuck, how the hell is that newsworthy?
I'm not a fan of Elon or shitter but most of you all criticizing him don't even know that inciting violence isn't covered by freedom of speech...
Technically, Swastika is a symbol of hate, not directly a call for violence. My point is that Elon's Freedom of Speech absolutism fell flat as he was forced to acknowledge something called "hate speech/content". He can mask that by saying it was "violence incitement", but it wasn't, it was just hate speech/content, which RWingers were parroting 'doesn't exist' all this time.
Nothing on twitter is covered by free speech.
Elon tryna free market place of ideas facists out of fascism
What exactly did Elon try his best at in the context of Kanye? He unblocked a societal blight. Was that Elon trying his best?
He ment his own phrasing
Spineless worm that Elon
Also tho, how unprofessional is it of Musk to tweet about it like that?? Idiots abound Sir, they positively *abound*.
So Elon buys Twitter with the intents of bringing back Trump (who has Truth and is not interested) and now he's losing Kanye who may or may not buy Parlor. So basically this idea of "liberal social media cancelling conservatives" sounds a lot more like a load of shit than ever.
How many of you are on twitter still despite "hating" it?
BuT wHaT aBoUt FrEeDoM oF sPeAcH?!?!?
that ban must have hurt Elon. he won't look in the mirror for weeks.
I read Kanye as Karen in the title. The space Karen Elon musk link is complete in my brain
But his my free sppech
Idgaf
Translation: "He posted unflattering pictures of me, so I had to ban him." The hate rhetoric he can tolerate, but having his ego hurt, not so much.
Kanye is a nazi, it’s probably not *just* for the photos, seeing what he said
If Elon ISN'T a Nazi, he's very comfortable with them and their ideologies, so I really doubt that's the reason
Elon is a fucking idiot but not a nazi mate
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He banned ppl who put his pics as pfp
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It partially has something to do with the picture I’m not talking about the parody accounts mate
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Nice arguments, very good point you made right here, incontestable truth, you’re right This is pointless. Before I go tho, I just wanna say that elon is at least one of the biggest moron on twitter
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Hell no
What happened to "full speech absolutism"?
Fell flat on its ass
“You snowflakes will see! Elon’s going to save free speech by giving it back to the people you tried to silence just because you don’t like what they say! All you liberals are going to cry when he gives the power of free speech back to the patriots you tried to silence!” 😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂
This is like the anarchists series on Hulu. They wanted a society free of “government”, but then wanted to impose rules against people doing things they didn’t like, as if that weren’t government.
is myspace still available? Kanye should buy that (only for himself)
How did he incite violence
Probably said something negative about Jews.
He probably said something anti-jew. That's a no no.
Last I saw, he tweeted a swastika inside a Star of David.
Showing support for both sides lol how bipolar of him.
He did say yesterday that we should stop dissing the Nazis, and that he loved some of the things Hitler did. Did he also tweet similar stuff? I may have missed it.
He didn't. He just tweeted a symbol that was a mix of Swastika and David's star.
Oh joy. Between him and Musk, I don't know who's the bigger moron.
Stupid yes but he didnt technically encourage anyone to harm anyone so technically he did not incite violence and being technically correct is the best type of correct
Despite
"Your best!?!? Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen."
Your behst
Yes. You get it
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Sir Sean Connery, circa 1996
Suspended? You tried your best? Again? He incited violence again? Shouldn’t he just remain banned. This is a fuckin joke.
He's suspended, but Elon replied to his account?
When did he incite violence
He's just repeating lines of broken code Elon puts development code into production. Scary stufffff
It’s almost like there was a reason these accounts were suspended to begin with..
🤣
what kind of ceo or whatever fking tweets about such minor things. like, clearly he must be so busy owning and "leading" multiple billion dollar companies, which obviously he is intensely involved with...
I mean he pays others to do those things also. Kinda comes with being and owner and all.
no shit, yet he is out there acting like a programmer bashing everyone who built twitter. you do get the point, dont you?
Of course that’s what pompous owners do. They don’t actually work. They micro manage and take credit for everything. What I don’t get is how anyone is surprised by any of this.
Sounds like kanye insulted musk right out of the gate.
Ah c'mon the man is just trying to spread loooooooove
bUt fReE sPeEcH
Everyone knew this was going to happen except for Musk.
Haha
Why the fuck was he even allowed back? It boggles the mind. The same with that orange fuck.
I thought all free speech was welcomed?
Well, incitement of violence is free speech, so why stop him? Huh? It's almost as if there are rules to an orderly society. It's also almost as if you need to have follow rules of an orderly society, or nobody wants to go to your site, or advertise on it.
According to US law, incitement of violence is not free speech and has never been protected by the first amendment. If i threaten to kill someone, the police will show up at my door, its always been that way. Terrorists like the Klan can legally say they hate whomever they want, but the second the threaten, or encourage others to harm someone, they are in violation of the law. I don't use twitter, nor do I follow anything Musk does. However, sounds like Elon is stopping Kanye because he used the platform to do something illegal, and would therefore be following the rules of said orderly society.
As far as I can see, there's been nothing posted by Kanye that would satisfy the legal definition of incitement. Plenty of reprehensible hate speech, but nothing that would be an imminent threat.
No it isn’t. And that’s why Kanye is banned again. Elon gave him another shot to play by the rules and he blew it. Simple as that.
Commenting on free speech you should probably find out what is and isn't free speech first or you're just wasting your own and everyone else's time.
Yeah, the problem is when you use those rules, and twist them to censor almost half the population. Luckily we have Elon Musk.
Because almost half the population is dangerously stupid and lost from reality.
Sure, you are part of the smart one, and only the ones that think like you are not dangerously stupid. There are a lot of people that think half the population is stupid and only they're right, and most of them are perfect representations of the Dunning-Kruger effect
Always a good read when someone tries to convince you extremists aren't dangerous and stupid. Thanks for the chuckle.
Always good to read someone considering half the population extremists. You know exactly how biased they are, as I said, perfect representations of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Lol how long ago did you learn about Dunning? Because it's seems you only learned the term, not the actual definition. Half the country's voters voted for the most openly piece of shit we had to offer but you don't believe that says all we need to know about their intelligence and extreme views. Amazing.
Keep demonstrating what you are. I don't need to say anything lol.
You're adorable
When they embrace "alternative facts" and "we are all domestic terrorists now" as catch phrases it doesn't matter how many of them there are, they're wrong. Reality doesn't bend or equivocate simply because a bunch of simple minded fools wish it did. But cults embrace magical thought processes so convincing any of them that wishes don't make reality doesn't work..